SRR # 38 | Interview with Joseph / The Parable of the Sower

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Network, Articles, and Presuppositional Apologetics

All right, thank you for joining us. My name is Tim and this is Semper Ephraim on the radio in case you didn't catch that in the little intro music thing that we do but Anyways, I just want to remind everybody that we are part of the Bible thumping wingnut Network, and they haven't kicked us out yet.

So we're still here, but I want to remind everybody to go to the Bible thumping wingnut webpage and when you get there to create a profile and Once you do that, you can friend request the the podcasters.

You can friend request other people. It's a it's pretty interactive and it's really cool because once you create a profile go to Semper Ephraim on the radio and Join our group and when you join our group, you can get updates email updates to Basically anything that's going on and I'm saying that because we are also putting out blog articles and we have We have some outstanding articles written by Tim Kaufman.

Who I want to pull this up real fast. Tim Kaufman just wrote two articles that I want to recommend to everybody it deals with eschatology and Tim Kaufman is is really one of my favorite authors. I love the way that he writes it's it's very clear, but the the article is titled the double crown and there's part one and part two and If you want to check this out check out all the blog articles.

You can just click on the blog icon or you can go to Semper Ephraim on the radio and see the blogs that we write. Colleen Colleen Sharp just wrote an article discussing our differences. I think that's really helpful for for me.

For for anybody who's looking to discuss differences theological differences, but there's there's a bunch of articles on there. So here's another article that we wrote Carlos put this together. It's Semper Ephraim on the radio new covenant theology playlists and resources.

So if you want to know where we stand with regards to new covenant theology check that out. There's some really good references there and then I actually wrote an article titled the scripturalist ad hominem reply and The scripturalist is the presuppositional title given to Clarkianism and it falls in beautifully with the the principle of sola scriptura because We are presuppositionalist.

But what are we presupposing? We're presupposing the truth of the Bible. So we are scripturalists and I love that title. I'm promoting that title. Let me see. What's his name? Dr. Gary Crampton wrote a book titled the scripturalism of Gordon Clark.

So if you want to find out more on what scripturalism is. He also has an article titled scripturalism a a worldview on the Trinity Foundation. So you can check that out, but in the article I just basically discuss How the the scripturalist which is once again the the Clarkian Presuppositionalist how we would use the transcendental argument now.

We would not use the transcendental transcendental argument the tag argument to try to prove God and we hear Vantillian presuppositionalists say this all the time that we can prove the existence of God by the impossibility of the contrary.

I've I've said repeatedly stop saying that stop using that because It's not right. Contraries can both be false and then you know, there's some other problems with that so in the article I talked about how the the scripturalist would use the transcendental argument as an ad hominem reply, which is to Reduce the the opponent's position to absurdity.

I give a few examples of that and I think that it's a it's a better to steal a tagline from my My New Covenant theology brothers, it's a better way. So so Joseph you're on our podcast, man. You got to start reading the content that we put out.

But Anyways, you have any comments or questions, you know, just just say hello say what's up?

Hello, and what's up?

The more.

Interestingly enough, so I've never formally studied the Clarkian position or and I have some to some degree understood the the Ventelian position I'm realizing that. So I didn't realize I was a presuppositionalist until somebody said the word what presuppositional apologetics and I had to go look it up.

The that I was always arguing from Scripture being true and I didn't need any more truth than that to make my argument. And so the more I'm hearing about both sides, it's interesting because I think that Ventelian argument gets a lot more Or exposure than the Clarkian, but if you're arguing based on the truth of Scripture, which is what I've been doing since I've studied my Bible.

Then that I realized that I'm much more Clarkian naturally than I am Ventelian. Ventelian seems to be more of a and This has just been my experience with a more of a manufactured argument in regards to I mean, so so not not a wrong one per se in regards to its Structure, but it's not.

It's it's logical conclusions. It's as opposed to I I know that when I say there's no such thing as an atheist. It's because Scripture says it's true. It's not because the impossibility of the contrary.

When I when I know that somebody knows that knows that God exists. Or they're only a fool says in their heart There is no God is because it's what Scripture said and I know that all the propositions of Scripture are true so it's interesting because I one of the reasons why I mean honestly that I appreciate having joined you guys is because I'm learning a lot more about something that I That I seem to have already held on to.

Yeah, so I think that Ventelianism has a lot to offer. I started off reading. Started off reading. Dr. Jason Lyle, who was a student of dr. Bonson and then from dr. Bonson. I learned about Ventile and I think that dr. Bonson had a lot of great stuff as a matter of fact in my article I actually quote him favorably Just so that everybody knows.

But I think I think the main disagreement would be with one of the main disagreements. There there are other disagreements and I think We covered that in a couple of our episodes critiquing Ventelianism and you can you can check that out in in our archives, but one of the main disagreements with with the apologetic approach is is how to use the tag and You know When people say it's but we can prove God by the impossibility of the contrary.

That's just that's that's wrong you can't do that because contraries can both be false and so a dr. Dr Scott Oliphant who was also a student of Venteel he acknowledges that other Other religions other faiths can actually use the transcendence of argument.

So what's to keep a Mormon from saying that he can prove the existence of God by the impossibility of the contrary and He could look at More he could look at Islam and Islam is contrary to Mormonism well That's just I mean that proves our point Contraries can both be false we would look at Mormonism and we'd look at Islam and say well both countries are false and just because you you prove that that That which is contrary to Mormonism which in this case, you know might be Islam Or atheism or whatever does not therefore Mean that Mormonism is true and so the scripturalist position is to really just Presuppose the the truth of the Bible.

We acknowledge that it's that it's true and and We don't try to prove what people already know. We don't try to prove that God exists because people already know that God exists but I do believe that we can expose that people know that God exists by the Irrationality of their their worldview or their position, but uh anyways Enough said about that.

I want to say big Thank you to Tim Kaufman for blogging for us. I want to definitely recommend everybody check out his articles All right. So so what I wanted to do tonight and this this is a little bit different But there's there's a reason for what I want to do.

I want to go ahead and interview Joseph and Ask him what he's got going on what he's looking to do because Joseph you put up a Sort of a Facebook post asking for for assistance or for help and Just go ahead and tell our listeners what it was what the Facebook post was about.

I'm sure not everybody heard it Let him know what that involves and just yeah, that's not a problem at all the.

So this is a to be to be fair and and I'll give a little bit of story first. I Was with a friend and we were working on with with some people in regards to transition before they went from one church to another and One of the times I spoke was in regards to giving and it had more to do with my friend.

And I didn't want him to do it because it's awkward to ask for yourself and it and they might mean more coming from someone else and so this is really really the My my least favorite topic Myself in a lot of ways so the The the reason for the post was because I am making a very intentional effort to do full-time evangelism and That that includes things like doing door-to-door evangelism, which I'm already doing with my church.

Doing open-air preaching which which I'm already doing to a degree In addition to abortion resistance going to the college and having conversations with our local colleges here the the two of them that are Larger in size and that are that are in my direct vicinity are Fresno City College and Fresno State and and I Spend time over at a recovery ministry and I do that primarily with my church.

So the the majority of the things that I'm doing right now I do with with brothers and with others and with my church and I'm not looking to specifically get away from that. But what I want to do is dedicate All of my time as if it were Towards evangelism and so not Changing what I do in regards to my activities.

But consuming my time with it. Because nothing else makes sense for me. There's only one thing that I that I have any desire to do and that's to have these conversations with people. I think that that we all deal with this to varying degrees in regards to Should I should I not to have that conversation with that person? that seems lost or that doesn't know the truth or has a false version of the truth whether it be a Mormon Jehovah's Witness or Roman Catholic and And I can't stop myself from having that conversation once I realize it's there.

So it's a it's definitely Somewhere I feel led for lack of a better way of putting it and I hate to use Overly spiritual terms for these things because I think they're they're really abused but nothing Conflation no confusion as to what I should be doing.

And and spending time talking to people in regards to the truth is is that thing? And so this is was reaching out to people so that my family could be supported in it. While I do that, so I still realize that I have a responsibility as a Father and as a husband to take care of my family if I don't I'm heck.

Yeah, you do. Yeah, if I don't I'm worse than a pagan right so I'm not I'm not looking to shirk that they aren't You know quite the same as I'm very Spartan in need. I don't need much if I could convince them we could live out of a tent and And just get the food we need then then that's that's I can live like that by my family.

It's not as Enthusiastic about that. So I love them. I care for them I care about how they feel about things and so I'm looking to to be able to do the work of an evangelist and then still be able to Live and live in a place with walls roof and a toilet.

Yeah, I think I think your wife would would definitely appreciate your your desire to to to provide and so let's talk about this a little bit more because in the Facebook Thing that you put up you are asking for financial support and I believe that last I looked you're at 13 of your goal and You are looking for people to sponsor you to to support you now.

You're not the first person to do this. Am I right?

Well, absolutely not. You actually introduced me to somebody who ended up being friends of friends elsewhere and in an area that I that I had previously looked in regards to. Some kind of direction in this Ryan Denton who is we.

We hit it off immediately. He's he's wonderful to talk to.

He.

He led me to somebody else that's in charge of the Whitfield program which is a Group that that helps it support open-air preachers who want to do it full-time not so much in the way that they give them Funds but they manage the funds and so I'm looking more at that.

I'm have been having dialogue with the the person who runs that which is who Ryan introduced me to and. And so that's been interesting. But yeah, I mean, I mean you have people who've turned it into something big.

Which is not specifically what I'm looking to do like great comfort, right? Who has made a really big name for himself in regards to his open-air evangelism? I'm a little bit more about using all the tools in my toolbox.

And so for example I'm at my church them. I met the body that I'm that I'm part of is in Kingsburg, California. And so if I was going to do my primary door-to-door would probably be there. And just work with them in regards to these are the houses We've hit and haven't hit and have those discussions with them as well as doing the the open-air and as well as having the conversations so it's a.

Yeah, not not the first person to do this. You know Whitfield wasn't the first person I'm pretty sure the disciples were the first people to do this although perhaps not using social media as a form of.

Building their their support right. Well, and the reason that I I mentioned that is because I Think that a lot of Christians are really Possibly I mean, I know that I was that oh, there's people that are out there doing this full-time and They're supported by other people so that they can be free to do this.

I mean usually when you see people walking down the street and see you've mentioned before that you go to people's houses and What's the first thing that people think of well? They think of Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses, and so I think that you know It's possible that a lot of people out there. Just aren't aware of the fact that there are full-time evangelists and That they would Hopefully be supported by by the church.

You know this is something that I want people to to think about is that You're not the you're not the first person that's out there doing this that there are other people out there that are doing this and And who are actually supported by by fellow Christians now.

Door-to-Door Evangelism and Gospel Conversations

Let me ask you so you see you do you do go door-to-door and? Walk us through that tell us tell us what that what that involves I mean. What does that look like?

Okay, so with with doing it with the congregation or even even a so let me let me dial back real quick. I heard the first time I started doing it with with a group of believers that belongs to different churches.

No, there weren't a ton of people at their churches that wanted to do it, and they ended up finding each other. And they walked up to my door one day and asked me Is that more people need to be asked.

And I gave him my answers. And then they invited me to come out with them not realizing that I would be I'd be preaching to them a little bit, too. But I mean I got into hard doctrines with them right away.

Just to see where they were at the their approach was to hit a certain a certain area and then go on and then because they were a little bit more a Seasonal the next season they would go back and talk to the people that they had had notes on.

Before.

At the beginning of the next season and then. They would then it would go into a new area. And so what we've been doing that when I came to grace Of the valley which is where I go to in Kingsburg. They already had a systematized approach.

They already had sectors laid out. It was it was really kind of neat to see the map and see like this. So for example this next week when we come up. We just finished the last area of a map and we'll have a new area of a map of these areas and there's gonna be you know anywhere between two to six of us that go out and we'll take different parts of different blocks and then we'll mark the areas that we did and then we'll come back and say these areas what we got and and then move on to another area within that sector than the following week and.

So it's a it's it's generally a systematic approach. I would I mean if anybody's listening to this and was wondering, you know, what's a what's some good? Things to do maybe other than that. I would say take notes of places.

You've had conversations with people so you can follow up with them later. You don't necessarily need to get their email address and phone number but if you have a decent conversation or you're concerned or I mean even if you know that they don't believe.

And you can tell that you've had enough of a conversation to find that out following up that with them to see where they're at. Doesn't hurt so but you don't but you completely lack the ability to do that if you don't take any notes at all.

So there's different ways of starting the conversation, but that's probably a good approach to do that.

The Goal of Evangelism Is Gospel Proclamation, Not Decisionalism

What's the ultimate goal? So, I mean. Obviously, I would think that if people saw you coming to their door that they're going to think that you're Jehovah's Witness. Am I right?

That's happened more than once. Yeah.

So, I mean the goal is to what do you do a Bible study with them in their house or. Do you try to invite them to a local church or I mean obviously you want to preach the gospel and hope that they would be saved but We're not you're not after decisional Evangelism, am I right?

Well, it's completely true.

So I'm not trying to I'm not trying to find my way into their house. They invite me and I'm going but that's not my goal. The emphasis is to to be able to plan the gospel and show them their need for it, right?

So I mean the a typical conversation might start one of a few ways, but one way might be. You know, hey, I'm you know, I'm Joseph. I go to you know, I'm from Grace of the Valley. But you know, we're going out and meeting our neighborhood.

And I was just wondering if there's anything to pray for and I might just be the the simple way of starting the conversation. I in fact that's that's how I've approached. Very similarly how I approach walking around my own neighborhood.

So, you know, I walk around the houses near here and it's like hey I'm I'm Joseph I'm one of your neighbors and I just want to know if you have anything I can pray for and and then beyond that. The yes, no or indifferent and if they do I generally want to know and I write it down.

But um.

But following that I say well, you know, do you have a local church body you go to and you know if they don't. Or they do or they don't then I asked him I thought you know the next question. It's like well.

It's the hard question it's a really uncomfortable question to ask if they say they Believe I I kind of add a maybe a little extra part to it and say well. You know. It's really encouraging to talk to people who share faith when they answer this question if you were to stand before God He said what he said, why should I let you into heaven?

What would your answer be or you know? If you died today, where would you go heaven or hell because it ultimately comes down to that that answer and so maybe I'm shortcutting. Maybe there's a longer fancier way of getting to that, but I just asked the question.

And so and then respond accordingly, right? So if somebody says Well, you know, I'm a pretty good person. Well, then I know what the answer is. If somebody says I haven't I hope I know what the answer is.

Yeah, if so, so those are really all right. I don't know. I know what the answer is so those things are really simple and then I might might I might take him more of a Law approach in regards to exposing their their sin and need for a Savior I'm I say that I don't mean might I will that's what I'll do but with somebody who professes faith I'm gonna dig in a little bit deeper just to see because I don't assume because somebody goes to church and and They say that doesn't mean that they that they do and so some sometimes I talk a little bit more about how we're a new creation in Christ and what that looks like how Christ is Lord and.

And if we love him, we'll do what he says. And in so one of the things I might even ask him about and not not that this is the absolute litmus test. But I'm I just want to see what they say. And so what does evangelism look like in your in your life?

Do you share your faith with other people? And what does that look like. I'm just gonna and not in a way that I'm trying to be overtly aggressive, but.

But.

Encouraging or encouraged if they if they have a response and so unfortunately, typically it's.

People who.

Know what the right things to say are that show up week in week out to church, but. But that's the extent of their Christian life. And so that's kind of those are part of the who I'm looking for also in regards to Sharing what the gospel means in regards to what salvation accomplishes in an individual and what it makes a man After Christ has after they've met God.

For maybe how Washer might might say it like the change that happens when you've come face to face with God.

Family, Support, and the Abortion Mills

Right, well, yeah, you know, I think that it's really important to just draw people out a little bit more like you said because I've I share my faith at work and and You know a lot of a lot of the guys that I work with it.

They know that I'm a I'm a Christian and I know who the atheists are and you know. We challenge each other all the time, but I I find it really Alarming at how many people are out there that will say like oh, yeah I'm a Christian and so then you do exactly what you what you Said is you try to draw them out a little bit more and say well, okay I mean so as a professing Christian, I mean, what do you think?

I mean obviously you think you're gonna go to heaven like how are you gonna get there and.

I.

Remember I was talking to this one guy. He's a firefighter and his dad was a pastor and asked him I said well what what does your church teach about how a person can be saved or what they. You know if I went to your church and asked this question if I died today, how would I go to heaven?

What would you say? And this this guy is a son of a pastor. He told me he said well, you know, I mean you just gotta You know follow the Ten Commandments and you got to be good and and you know, just try your best.

I mean, you know, nobody's perfect and but you know, it's just you know. You just got to try your best and I was like was that what you're hoping in and he's like, well, yeah I mean, I you know. Nobody's perfect and I you know, you just gotta try to obey the Ten Commandments and know and I'm like, dude You're not even a Christian, you know, if that's if that's what you believe you're not even a Christian.

You're you're a lost reprobate still in your sin and I mean as a fireman like I you know. The stuff that they tell me and it's like they can dish it out. So I'm just asking for equal air time and I you know, I told him just like that I was like, you know, you're still in your sins if you if that's what you believe and it's it's Alarming at how many people just don't understand the gospel and when you ask them those those probing questions.

They profess to be a Christian because maybe their family's a Christian maybe they go to church every once in a while or the wife drags them to church or whatever and They they think that they're a Christian and then you find out like you don't understand the gospel.

You you're not a Christian at all, you're not saved so I really appreciate that you're doing that but I'm thinking that. With everything that you're talking about. I'm I'm hearing you and I'm thinking that this doing this actually takes a lot of time because having conversations with people just going and Sitting down with people and talking to people.

Really I mean these can be hour-long conversations that you have with people where you're witnessing to them and they they have a story to tell or they you know, they're just you're pressing in with the gospel and.

So one of the things I just want to I just want to make sure I just want to ask you because nobody should support you in this if You're neglecting your family in order to do this. And so You would agree with me on that right you're not neglecting.

Oh.

100 absolutely that that might. So the Deuteronomy 6 still applies My job is to raise raise my children. That the proverb still applies Raise your children and in his ways and they won't leave when when they get old, I mean so I can't ignore some of Scripture for other parts of Scripture and.

And I need to be diligent and with my family.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely because you know just in doing the podcast. Man, if this if this really just takes everything away from my family, then I'm shutting the podcast down. I mean my family is my first mission.

My family is my first ministry. And so I really appreciate your perspective. I really appreciate where you're coming from now. Talk to me about the abortion mills. You said that you the part of what you're doing as a full-time evangelist is you're going out and you're evangelizing.

At the abortion clinics, you've put up some videos on Facebook. All right, so I just got to ask. I just got to ask this. Are you with AHA? No, I'm not. Okay, so people can people can go to abortion mills and Preach the gospel and not be affiliated with AHA.

But is there another organization besides AHA that does this?

Yeah, a church should be doing it, but the I mean, that's that's the short answer the I mean and unfortunately, that's gonna sound like a lot of what they argue, but I'm not gonna say they're wrong where they're right.

I mean the church should be more involved with it I mean you've seen pictures you've seen maps where you've got, you know a hundred and something churches around there and you've only got one person standing outside of the abortion mill where babies are being slaughtered and You wonder why and my thing would be that maybe a lot of those places aren't churches.

But I would have said that without having to get abortion into the question. I don't think abortion is litmus test. It's a it's a it's a indicator. It's a flag. It's not the it's not the It's not the the standalone evidence, so so I'll let me let me go into just a little bit more briefly because so this might not make me super popular with with some of the Bunker group and the Bible Thumping Weenut guys, but I don't think that everybody and I don't think that everybody's that bad but the I don't think everybody that's Affiliated with AHA is Is in the worst end of things is in the cult as it were as it gets to referred to and I'll give an example, there's a.

Guy that.

He's loosely affiliated with AHA that that is part of my church. He serves in the church. He He's one of the few people that wants to go out and do evangelism and not just the abortion mill evangelism.

But the door-to-door evangelism. He wants to get out there and do things. He likes to wear their swag and uses their Their media in regards to some of the stuff he has out in front of the abortion mill.

And he is very much about fellowship. He's very much about Being submitted to the elders of the church. The elders at our church know that he's affiliated with AHA there they somebody When when the ball dropped in regards to Heritage Grace Warned I think called my my my senior the night.

He's not he's not. His title isn't a senior pastor, but. But he's the teaching pastor there and he talked to him and he's not worried about him. And so and so just because he likes some of what some of them.

You're gonna have to explain what with that. I mean you're referencing things that yeah. A lot of our listeners may not understand. What do you mean the ball drops with? Heritage. What was the Heritage Grace?

So Heritage Grace is one of the most solid churches. I've ever been to. I mean I'll take that back. It's the most solid church. I've ever seen. It's located in Frisco, Texas. They are constantly out there doing open-air evangelism whether it be in downtown and playing over in Denton and and their pastor.

Regular basis I think just about every Wednesday as far as when classes in session that I know of I don't know that he slowed down or stop goes out every Wednesday and and does open-air evangelism and has His microphone set up and the opposite mic and is willing to engage in apologetics.

And so these these guys are out there doing the work the way I like to describe them to people who when I maybe have an idea of them, but I don't have the time to go into all the details is. They're like the the churches that weren't reviewed in Revelation.

They're they're there. I I've never had more sweet fellowship with with men and not had to feel like I Think I could just discuss things with them and not feel like I was Trying to correct anything and it was just it was it super super solid guys and.

So it's like it's like being on our podcast. That was vain. Start that sentence over.

Okay, so a AHA Had the church repent project and so where where I can see some value to in some degree to to the idea that idea.

The.

They decided to stand outside of that church. That super solid church that goes out and faithfully preaches the gospel on a regular basis. That they jokingly call their and I don't think it's that much of a joke to be honest with you but they jokingly call their their their Sunday school class for the adults Sunday seminary because the last three classes I'm aware of that they went over was Systematic theology then.

Then biblical theology. I came to be honest. I can't remember the last one, but they that's there. That's what they're teaching through to their congregants. They they went to that church and called them to repent.

Of what kind of apathy, right? That's that's the question they they preach against the abortion being murder. Faithfully they don't know nobody there equivocates on that. And and I've been out preaching with them.

And so I know that's what they preach. And so they chose that church and so that got a lot of people up in arms. So people were kind of Cautious, I think a lot of people were cautious with with AHA. And not everyone but but there's there's quite a few and When that happened when they when they attacked a super super solid Bible teaching preaching gospel everything Church, there was there was a huge issue a huge fallout.

And it was around that time that that I think when when my friend was asking questions or maybe taking aside because. Because you know lack of information, I know that when I am trying to learn things I challenge things.

That that somebody had called in to our congregation to to warn about him, but he's Very involved super solid submissive the elders. He's none of what usually gets ascribed to what would be a AHA member in regards to the people that are referred to as cult-like.

So.

So I know that that there are problems there particularly with the leadership, but I'm not going to carte blanche say that Everybody who affiliates with them is is part of the cult. I I know I know at least one person and That that isn't even a little even remotely.

And so and I and he's one of the people that I go out and do abortion resistance with there's another gentleman That I go out with on another day who goes to another church and and so I Get to use all my tools on one day on a Friday.

I might use my open-air preaching tool and on Wednesday I might use my conversational evangelism tool, so I you know I don't. I I like to be able to To to do what's what the situation calls for and it's fun to be around different people so I can exercise different muscles in regards.

The Parable of the Soils and True Conversion

Evangelism and apologetics yeah, I mean we certainly would agree that Abortion is murder. There's no doubt about it and in my mind it is probably the worst case of murder because What you have is a mother who is?