"Confidential" and Condemning Letter Found

The Gospel, Abortion, and Mormonism on Apologia Radio

Non-rockabodas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it.

Are you going to bark all day, little doggie? Or are you going to bite?

We're being delusional. Delusional? Delusional is okay in your world view. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your world view is perfectly okay.

It doesn't really hurt.

It's the unhop on!

What? What?

Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Don't go into the world and make homies. Disciples.

I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, pastor.

When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

It is an abomination to kings to do evil. For the throne is established by righteousness. What's up, guys? Welcome back to the Gospel Heard Around the World. This is Apologia Radio coming at you guys from Apologia Studios in Phoenix, Arizona.

I am Jeff the Combat Ninja. I am sitting next to my right-hand man. This is Zach Conover, Director of Communications for End Abortion Now.

What's up? Technically, it's your left hand today.

Oh, that's right. That's right. Seated in my right hand. From your perspective.

Right, right.

What's up, guys? Hey, welcome back. If you guys would, share this live stream right now across your social media. We need your help to get this information out. We have some very important things to share with everybody today.

Some very interesting things happening. Our plan today is to do a show talking to a friend of ours who is with Free the States. He is working to abolish abortion in the state of Oklahoma. And we have some very, very interesting information to share with you guys.

So we're going to talk with Russell Hunter in just a moment here. And after that, if we have time, we want to talk a bit about the gospel and Mormonism.

There's always time for the gospel.

There's always time for the gospel and Mormonism. So the gospel and the conflict with abortion and the gospel and the conflict with Mormonism. Where else are you going to get that? Well, right here, guys.

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It is weird.

Dr. James White.

It's weirder to be his deacon. It is. Yeah, that's right.

If you had told me in 1997, if an angel came to me and was like, hey, bro, one day you're going to technically be Dr. White's pastor, I'd be like, shut your mouth. I wouldn't have believed it.

Did you see what he said to me recently?

What?

He made a post about just the state of the culture and everything. And he has a very realistic tendency to talk about the culture and where things are going. And I so appreciate that. I commented and I said, brother, I'm so glad that I have you to balance out my post-millennialism if it becomes naively optimistic.

Yes.

He wrote back just like LOL laughing like, now I know why I'm here to balance out Zach. That's right. That's right.

Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So you go to ApologiaKauai .com .meetfest2019, and we'll get going with that. So very, very excited to have this episode. Last night, when I was looking through some of the content, I contacted Russell Hunter with Free the State.

He's a friend, and I am so proud of him and so excited about what he's doing in the state of Oklahoma. So for all of you guys who are watching right now that are not up to speed, before I bring him on, let me make sure I get you up to speed so you know what's happening right now.

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We need your participation. And that's one of the ways that you can do it. So a very important, again, episode. I had the blessing and the privilege to spend time with Russell Hunter in Oklahoma very recently, and that was surrounding Senator Joseph Silk's bill to abolish, to criminalize, to end once and for all abortion in the state of Oklahoma.

Now, this is important. Please hear this. This is not merely a legislative effort to end abortion. This is a Christ-centered, biblical worldview, saturated focus on bringing the gospel and the Christian worldview into conflict with the issue of abortion.

This is not petty partisan stuff. This is not neutrality. This is Christians working to bring the gospel and justice, true justice, in the conflict with the issue of abortion. So I had the privilege of spending time with Russell in Oklahoma.

It was truly, truly a gift to do so and got to see the work that he's doing out there with Senator Joseph Silk. SB13, get to know that. SB13 in Oklahoma is the bill to abolish abortion, to end it once and for all in the state of Oklahoma.

And again, it is a movement of the Christians, really, foundationally to work for justice for these pre-born children. Now, Russell is doing some amazing things. You should see some of the billboards that are going up all over Oklahoma.

I think that he is a smart, smart man, and he is doing a fantastic job. But I just discovered, really, what happened in terms of the pro-life movement we've known, of course, is warring against a strictly criminalization or abolition of abortion.

The pro-life movement, believe it or not, if you're new to this discussion, I'm going to say this very, very respectfully and humbly, the pro-life movement is working against, against the idea of abolition or criminalization or ending abortion.

They truly are. You need to understand that. You know that two or three years ago, Senator Silk did another bill similar to this one, and we discovered what Russell was doing in the background and our other friends were doing, and we noticed a man named Tony Lowinger.

Tony Lowinger was the vice president of National Right to Life. It's one of the largest pro-life organizations in the world. They were actually working ineffectively in Ireland when we were there to try to help the church in Ireland and not being overly helpful.

When we discovered that this man, who also is with Oklahomans for Life, was working against the bill to criminalize abortion in Oklahoma, we had Tony Lowinger on to try to offer some backup and assistance to the team that was out there in Oklahoma working to end abortion, and once and for all, we wanted to expose Tony Lowinger's worldview to show you that he is not ultimately working to criminalize and end abortion in Oklahoma the way that it ought to be.

He is believing the lie that Roe v. Wade is a law and that somehow that is hanging over us and we can't actually have interposition to stop abortion in the states, and so you also heard from Tony in that interview.

You can go. It's on YouTube now. You also heard from him that they are seeking to take a backdoor approach, not explicitly Christian. They don't want to use Christian terminology. They don't want to use Christian language.

His perspective is neutrality. His perspective is yield to the federal beast. His perspective is yield to the fallacious opinion of the Supreme Court in the 1970s that is easily refuted. His perspective is not constitutional.

It is in terms of who makes law in our country according to the Constitution. It is Congress, not the Supreme Court. Okay, so we're there now, right? You guys got that? That happened before Tony Lowinger was a part of actually stopping that bill in the past.

Well, I want to bring Russell on and have him explain to us where we're at right now in Oklahoma, what is going on, and what is up with this confidential letter that fell into your lap? Russell Hunter, welcome to Apologia Radio, brother.

Awesome to be here with you guys.

Absolutely. Who to thunk, right? Here we are.

Somewhere, somebody's head just went...

Yes, exactly, exactly. So let's do it, man. Let's get right to it. Russell, can you bring all of our listeners and viewers up to speed? What is going on in Oklahoma? We want to know what's happening. We want to know how do we help you, and we want to find out about this letter, so talk to us.

Well, the great thing that's going on in Oklahoma is that Senate Bill 13 is not dead. So they didn't have enough votes to bring it up and kill it, so they had to table it, and they had left it alive. So it's going to be alive through the rest of the legislative session on into next year.

Good, good.

The movement around it, the people who understand it, the difference between it and sort of a pro-life regulation bill has been astounding. It's been a great success, even though they haven't voted on it.

The number of people who are coming to understand the difference between an abolition bill and a pro-life bill, a regulation bill, is great.

Yeah.

Russell...

We have a lot of people right now who are probably watching this on YouTube live who don't quite understand the difference. Can you just... And I want to make sure you get all the time you need to explain everything.

But for those who are new to us in this discussion, Russell, can you help us with that distinction between a pro-life bill and an abolitionist bill? Like, what's the distinction? What's the distinctives between the two camps?

Yeah, the primary distinction will come from... It begins with treating abortion for what it is. So if you treat abortion as murder, in your bill, you're going to say, abortion is murder. The so-called constitutional right to abortion was unconstitutional, and abortion should be criminalized, thereby abolished.

That's going to be sort of the defining characteristic of an abolition bill. The defining characteristic of a pro-life bill is to sort of accept the Supreme Court's ruling that abortion is constitutional and try to find a way to regulate or restrict access to abortion within Roe v. Wade or within KCV Planned Parenthood to try to reduce the number of abortions.

Now, there may be good motives on that side, but the defining characteristic of a pro-life bill would be compliance to the Supreme Court, acceptance of the legality of choice, and then sort of trying to make people choose life or make a better choice.

Abolition bill is like, there shouldn't be a choice. This should be illegal, a criminal act, that the purpose of government is to actually punish evildoers and protect the innocent.

Russell, can you help me with this? Just give everyone a good perspective of what that looks like. Let's say, for example, a pro-life bill goes into committee and moves its way through and then finally becomes real for the pro-life movement, and they celebrate a victory.

What are some of the victories that they actually celebrate? They get a bill going and it actually connects now and it's standing. What's a victory for the pro-life movement?

Yeah, there's been about 250 to 300 pro-life victory bills. Bills such as, you can get an abortion after you've looked at an ultrasound. You can get an abortion so long as your abortionist has hospital visitation privileges or ambulance service.

Or you can get an abortion so long as your abortionist has a certain sign-up in their office. And they celebrate these as victories. Of course, they don't really reduce the number of abortions and they don't establish justice for pre-born fatherless children.

But they make people feel like they're doing something. They can say they're winning. They can send out more fundraising letters. They can get more votes. In Oklahoma, they can receive roses for being pro-life.

But nothing really changes because they're not calling for justice. They're basically calling for peace, peace when there is no peace and putting forward these ideas. From an abolitionist perspective, we think that that's actually key to keeping abortion legal.

You get all these people that believe abortion is evil and it's murder and ought to be abolished. You get all of them together and get them focused on these incremental victories instead of unifying together to call for total and immediate abolition.

And that delays justice.

Yes.

Okay.

So can you help everyone real fast with the SB13? What exactly is it and where is it at right now?

Well, SB13 removes the exception for abortion in Oklahoma's homicide laws and says that no, there's not going to be an exception. Like in our actual murder code, it says you can't murder unborn children unless you're doing a legal abortion.

So it removes that exception, repeals all the pro-life laws, all the pro-life laws that say you can get an abortion if you do this, this, and this. And it directly challenges the constitutionality of the right to terminate humans in the womb.

Where it is currently at is everyone's reading it, everyone's talking about it, and the pro-life lobby and the pro-life legislators in Oklahoma are pulling out all the stops to put forward fake, I'd say fake abolition bills to save face.

But they're just putting forward these other bills so they don't have to pass Senate Bill 13. But Senate Bill 13 is what not only Oklahoma needs, but any state in the union needs.

Now, Russell, I need you to help me with this. And we have to try to be measured, of course, and humble and gracious, but also we have to be honest in this entire work. What we've run into in the past in these kinds of situations, and you've seen this more than any of us, when you have these things in motion, some of the greatest pushback and resistance you receive is not ultimately from the opposition in terms of pro-choicers.

You're seeing opposition from Christian organizations, pro-life organizations, working against a bill to criminalize and abolish and to end once and for all abortion in Oklahoma. Can you help us with that?

What does that look like?

Well, right now, it very literally looks like the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma conspiring in backroom deals with political leaders and the heads of the Catholic Church in Oklahoma to together be unified in their opposition to Senate Bill 13.

We have actually received zero opposition from any pro-choice groups. There's just, I mean, Oklahoma is, you know, it is a very conservative red state. Pro-lifers dominate the House, the Senate, the governor's office.

The only people who possess any power to stop abortion from being abolished in Oklahoma are, you know, professing Christians and pro-lifers. And yes, they are actively scheming,.

Writing letters,.

Making public pronouncements, calling press conferences and joining. It's very strange, but the leaders of the Catholic, I don't know what you call them, the Catholic Church.

Diocese?

Yeah.

I mean, the archdiocese of the Catholic Church here, along with the president of the Baptist General Convention and the head press guys there, they are all actively working. And quite literally, like you don't understand, like, so I'm at the Capitol quite a bit.

They are quite literally having closed door secret meetings to come up with ways to scheme killing Senate Bill 13. While at the same time, you've got thousands of people demanding that this bill is heard.

Russell, here's the thing. We have to bring people into this with us. You and I sound like fanatics and nutcases.

Yeah.

Conspiracy theorists. Conspiracy theorists.

When we say that it is the pro-life organizations that are stopping the abolition of abortion, people hear that and they may tune out and say, you guys are crazy. Russell, we're telling the truth. So please explain what that looks like and how do we prove that?

Like, what does it look like that this is true? The pro-life movement is working against bills to end and criminalize and abolish abortion in Oklahoma. Prove it to us.

Well, first off, this shouldn't, I know it sounds conspiratorial, but this shouldn't be surprising to anyone who has sort of a biblical worldview. This is pretty much, not only that their opposition would come from political and religious authorities, but that they would kind of use some of the tactics that they're using, slander, confusion, division.

So this should not be, the way that we're looking at it, we see like these religious authorities and these political authorities meeting together, conspiring to kill a righteous bill and defame a righteous man and those who are helping him and following him.

And that's what's going on. So this shouldn't be conspiratorial. This should be pretty much, oh yeah, this is what the Bible kind of, this is what Jesus warned us of, warned the, beware the leaven of the Pharisees, beware the leaven of Herod.

When you go out doing things in my name, they are going to say all manner of evil things from town to town or from blog to blog, from Facebook post to Facebook post. They're going to say all things about you.

So this shouldn't be surprising. But I think one of the reasons that we're having the show is that for those who are like, no, no, no, you guys are just kind of weaving this out of nowhere. No, it's not actually true.

Just through the providence of God, I mean, we're intercepting their actual, you know, unfruitful deeds of darkness. They're getting exposed. And that's what this letter from Oklahomans for Life, it is literally the vice president of the National Right to Life, writing a letter to Julie Daniels, Senator Julie Daniels, the chair of the Judiciary Committee in Oklahoma, telling her to make sure that she moves her bill through the process in such a way that it won't get challenged or cross-examined by Senator Silk and that it can pass and not have to be scrutinized.

I mean, this is, we're not making this up. I mean, it's literally here.

It's unreal. And where is that available, Russell, so that everyone can go take a look at it?

Yeah, the letter is actually, we published it on the Free the States Facebook page, and I did a little analysis of it for people because you might read it and think, well, I don't see what is so problematic here.

So I did a short video to try to explain what's going on in this letter. But that's on the Free the States Facebook page,.

Right?

Facebook .com slash. Free the States.

Got it.

Okay.

So when we make the allegation that the pro-life movement is not helping the pro-life movement,.

Right?

The pro-life to say.

Ideology, right? Like life. And when we say that, what can we use to describe that the people who are new to this that need to get involved with us in terms of moving forward here to have legitimate, righteous, just victory.

Why are they trying to stop a bill that would criminalize abortion in Oklahoma? What is their reasoning? What are they saying back to you? When you get word back from all these organizations, like, no, not SB 13.

Oh, it's not murder? No, we kind of believe it is. Well, then why don't you want it stopped?

Right, what's the answer?

What's the answer? Like, what are they saying back to you?

Well, let's be charitable for a second. I think a lot of these guys involved in this work, whether you're talking about some of the legislators or some of the lobbyists and some of the groups, I think they have this real heartfelt desire to save babies.

And they haven't really thought about the deeper ideological background of what they're doing. And whenever you get into discussions with them, you find out that really what's going on is they do have a lot of fear.

And they do have a lot of faithlessness. I know I'm trying to be charitable in saying that they're fearful and they're faithless. But that's, whenever they have a problem with Senate Bill 13, all the excuses are like, we can't challenge the Supreme Court because this and that.

Or if we call abortion murder and say it should be criminalized, the people aren't ready for it and all this kind of stuff. And I think it really does come down to, so you know that passage in 2 Corinthians 4?

It's like 2 Corinthians 4, 2, right? And it's talking about underhanded, disgraceful ways and scheming. And Paul's basically, we have, you know, renounced underhanded ways, this scheming thing. We're just going to, Paul says, he's just going to plainly state the truth.

I think what's going on is Senate Bill 13 or any bill like it, there's four or five other bills that are very similar to it out in the country right now. They are just plainly stating the truth. Abortion is murder.

It ought to be abolished. The state's been given a sword to punish evildoers. It's evil. This is what's true. And the country and its leaders need to repent of covering this practice with law. And the pro-life bills have all been written and designed in this sort of scheming way to try to like get behind that.

I mean, they are definitionally underhanded. These guys will say, I believe too that abortion is murder and I want it to be abolished. And he's like, well, then how come that's not in your bill? And they'll say, well, I mean, you'll catch them.

They'll say, well, we've got to be wise. And, you know, considering the world and the way the world thinks, you're like, so you have to be worldly wise. And so the abolitionist bill is in that perspective is to say, no, we're not trying to be worldly wise or pragmatic.

We're going to trust in the providence of God, bring the truth, justice, and mercy of God into conflict with this evil and let it speak for itself. And so

Well, when you get, I'll let you exactly ask the question after this, but when you get resistance and they say, well, this won't work, Mr. Hunter, this won't work. I mean, if it does get put into effect and it becomes law in Oklahoma, it won't work.

And, you know, and it could put us in a position where all the pro-life laws have worked so hard for, well, they'll disappear in the midst of this and the Supreme Court's just going to strike it down.

It just doesn't really matter. So it just, it won't work, Mr. Hunter.

Yeah.

Well, the thing that they tell us, like that's just going to get thrown out by the courts, you know, or that's not constitutional. When they say it's not constitutional, what they mean is it doesn't comply with the Supreme Court's rulings.

That's what they mean. And of course we're saying, we know it doesn't comply with the Supreme Court's rulings. We are directly and emphatically challenging it. We're standing up and saying, no, you're wrong.

You repent. And, you know, we're not going to comply. We're going to defy your tyranny. So they're actually looking at what we're doing through their worldview or through their fears or their perspective.

And they think we're doing something foolish. And of course, you know, it does appear foolish to them. But I think that if all Christians would unify together and we would say, no, we've had enough of this, you know, 63 million children dead and four and a half decades of legal child sacrifice is enough.

We're going to be the people of God who say, abortion is murder, it ought to be abolished. We do need them to join us, but they have to get over their faithlessness. They have to move from being pragmatic men to being providence men.

And we see this with the abolition of slavery. We see this with various other things in the past. It's once the people of God decide to serve God and not man that we're actually going to see change. And there's nothing to fear here.

Obey God rather than men. Just I'll ask one more. I'm sorry, Zach, I just one more question connected to that to make sure I want to put all this on record for everyone. So this is the most helpful and most useful to everybody.

Russell, has there ever been a time in American history where a state defied the federal, the court, the Supreme Court, Supreme Court's ruling, say on the issue of black people and slavery? Has there ever been a time when the state said hashtag hell no?

Has anything like that ever happened?

Oh yeah.

Well, one, to be clear, it's happening right now.

Right, right, right.

Multiple states that are like saying hell no for marijuana.

Yes, yes.

There are multiple states that are doing it for immigration. There are lesser things that states are just saying, no, we're just going to defy federal law. I mean, it is a federal law. No state has the right to practice the distribution of marijuana, either medical or recreation.

And we have multiple states breaking that now.

Arizona's one of them.

Yeah, and Oklahoma. I mean, even these conservative states. Now in history, of course, you had constant nullification of the Federal Fugitive Slave Act. I mean, people want to say that the nullificationists and the secessionists and the states' rights people were all in the South and they were on the wrong side of the issue of slavery.

But the real fact of the matter is, is the federal fugitive slave laws were being constantly broken and disregarded by everyone working the Underground Railroad. And people working the Underground Railroad throughout the South and the North, helping slaves escape to freedom, knew exactly what they were doing.

And there were multiple Supreme Court cases on behalf of various slaves and various abolitionists saying, no, you guys are wrong. Famously, the Dred Scott decision. But, I mean, you had states eventually, the one that always gets brought up is Wisconsin and the rescue of the fugitive slave Joshua Glover.

Wisconsin basically said, no, I mean, we're going to let our people rescue these slaves and we're not going to punish them and told the Supreme Court to pound sand. Of course, the Supreme Court says, no, you have to follow us.

But no one really gets in trouble. And this is the stuff that precipitates a change in the heart and mind of the nation to where by the time the Civil War ends, they know, like everyone in the country knows, we've got to abolish this evil because we've had this Civil War.

It was about many things, but we know that following a Northern victory, there's no way that we're going to allow slavery to continue because these abolitionists will keep on doing their agitation, their nullification.

You have to believe that people saw that principled stand too and saw the injustice and saw that it was possible when courageous men took a stand against a tyrannical authority like the Supreme Court.

And it's very easy to see that that same kind of thing could be duplicated today if Christians would just take that stand. And even when I hear that question, it kind of just, it rubs me the wrong way.

Well, does it work? That doesn't work. I mean, that's the definition of pragmatism is surrendering principle for the sake of what works. And so if we don't have our principles and we don't have our Christian convictions, which are the only thing that give us any authority anyways to come against something like this, then we really don't have any license or authorization to fight to begin with.

And so if we're going to look to a court, which in my mind, it seems like on both sides of the aisle, whether you're Republican or Democrat, it seems like they are placing the Supreme Court in such a high position of authority that it just becomes a matter of who can control that body in order to affect the outcome of what's going to take place.

And I would just say that's not a Christian way of thinking, I don't think, to have one group of men as the authority structure and you just try to play this endless game of who can get enough seats to dictate the outcome of the engagement.

Like instead of standing on righteousness, biblical principles, God's word to dictate and to tell these men and women, here's what you must do when something is purely and obviously lawless like abortion.

Yeah, and it's insane. It really does actually come down to like five people.

Right, just the majority is all you need.

It's like the majority on the Supreme Court.

Yeah, the country's being ruled by five people.

Yeah.

Ultimately. Yeah, that's powerful. Hey, so let's do this. Again, Russell, everyone's asking questions. Russell Hunter, freethestates .org. Also go check out the Facebook page. He just mentioned he did a video explaining the quote-unquote confidential letter that fell by God's providence into his lap.

So go check that out, guys. Why not just, and this is again for new listeners right now, why not just approach this with neutrality? Why not play the game? Like why does this have to be a fundamentally Christian movement?

I mean, I thought there's a separation of church and state. We don't want to just be Christians in this fight. They're just going to ignore us. They're going to dismiss everything that we say. If we're standing explicitly on a Christian worldview, using the gospel to come into conflict, if we're using Christian terminology, then we're not going to be as, quote, effective.

So why do you believe that this has to be gospel-centered? Why do you believe that this has to be done from a consistently Christian perspective without neutrality?

Why?

Yeah, I'm going to say something that's going to sound pragmatic here. You ready?

Uh-huh.

This is actually going to be the thing, the only thing that actually works.

Yes! Yeah, right.

Yeah, God rewards that faithfulness.

It's the only thing. So everything else undermines itself, right? So you've got all these bills that say, well, we've got to do this pragmatic-wise, you know, chipping away at abortion type thing because we can't just kind of go in there like Christian prophets and say abortions, murder, it should be abolished.