July 10, 2026 Show with Joseph Weissman on “Of Ghosts & Spirits Walking by Night: Examining the Work of Ludwig Lavater”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.

It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 10th day of July, 2026.

Ghost Stories and Reformed Theology

Historians, some at least, can date ghost stories back to 3500 BC, and today we're going to be talking about ghosts, and since this is a theologically reformed program, we're going to hear what a 16th century Swiss reformed theologian had to say about the matter.

We're going to be analyzing the book of Ghosts and Spirits Walking by Night, and to discuss this book is the publisher of this 16th century work by Ludwig Labrador, Joseph Weissman, who's been on this program before.

Joseph Weissman is co-founder with his wife, Jamie, of the reformed publisher Bereth Press, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Joseph Weissman. Thank you, Chris, great to be here.

And tell us more about, as an introduction for the sake of our listeners who did not hear you on the program the first time, tell us about Bereth Press.

Yeah, thank you for that. So Bereth Press is from simply the Hebrew word for covenant, and we are covenanters, and I've really benefited from covenant theology as a biblical corrective to the dispensationalism I used to hold to, and I've profited a lot from going back and reading old works, explaining the Bible on many topics, and I'd often read books and think, why is this not being republished?

Someone republished this, and it became a hobby at first of cleaning up a text and making it readable on a modern screen with modern characters. From that to setting up the book company itself, that became something we both really wanted to do, and then Bereth Press has been running since 2023, and we have republished dozens of books by God's grace, and we started to also include some new books as well.

But most of what we do are retrieved books, which are either reprints of Reformers and Puritans and others, and we also have some translations, mainly from Latin into English that we publish. So we publish books such as William Gouge's Domestical Beauties, Francis Roberts' God's Covenants, and Ludwig Lavater, of course.

We've got some other works here by Franciscus Junius, translated from Latin, a book by Isaac Ambrose on the angels, and some, yeah, Wilhelmus O 'Brackell's Revelation Commentary, Benedict Pictet, the nephew of Francis Turretin, a couple of books by him, and several resources on the Hebrew language.

And also Hermann Witsius' Ironical Animated Versions on the Controversies Agitated in Britain, where there was an antinomian and a potentially neonomian party, and these factions invited Witsius to mitigate, to mediate, I should say, between them.

And so his writing is something that we republished, some logic textbooks as well, and some other things too. So, you know, please do check it out. Berith, it's about B-E-R-I-T-H, Berithpress .com.

R. Berithpress .com. It should interest our listeners to know that even though my guest, Joseph Wiseman, who is the founder of Berithpress, he is a Jewish believer, and it should interest you to know that he, as he just mentioned, converted from dispensationalism to covenant theology, which seems to be a rarity among Jewish believers.

And where in England are you conducting this interview from right now?

R. Well, I'm actually conducting it from the U .S. B. Oh, okay. R. I live over here. Yeah, I live with my wife in Oklahoma. She's American. I am from London, but yeah, I'm living in the States now.

Okay, you've kind of ruined the mystique of our program. I'm only kidding. Well, please tell even myself about this figure from the 16th century, the Swiss Reformed theologian Ludwig Lavater. I have never heard of him until you mentioned to me either during or after our previous interview.

And by the way, folks, if you want to look up that fascinating interview, just go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com after this live broadcast, obviously, IronSharpensIronRadio .com and type in Weissman in the search engine, that's W-E-I-S-S-M-A-N, and you will find that interview.

But I had not heard of Ludwig Lavater until you mentioned him during or after our last interview, and you happened to mention the book that he wrote in the 16th century of Ghosts and Spirits Walking by Night, and I thought that would be an excellent topic for an interview because of the fascination over that subject.

And I've never seen a book written that long ago by someone who I would consider a forefather in the faith, since he is a Reformed theologian. So, if you could, tell us all about this man.

Well, I want to take a step back to look at his father-in-law, Heinrich Bollinger. People aren't necessarily aware of this, but Bollinger's discovery about the truths of the Reformation, some people might conjecture they were kind of parallel to Luther's, he was reading Lombard sentences and the decrees of Gratian, and then he began reading the Church Fathers.

When Bollinger read the Church Fathers, he noticed they relied more on scripture than the scholastics, the paper scholastics did, and this encouraged him to read the Bible and Luther. So, it's not like Luther nailed the 95 theses and then Bollinger necessarily read them or heard of them.

It seems that God's spirit was moving in different people across Europe at a different time. Now, I mention Bollinger because there isn't too much I've read about Labrador, but Bollinger was his father-in-law.

So, Bollinger, who was one of the most important leaders of the Swiss Reformation, who co-authored the Helvetic Confessions, and he worked with John Calvin to write out the Reformed Doctrine of the Lord's Supper.

Bollinger was the father-in-law of Labrador. Labrador moved within Bollinger's circles, and Labrador was, I suppose, the chief pastor of the Calvinist church in Zurich, and he was the successor of Rudolf Argote.

It's spelled G-W-A-L-T-H-E-R. He was the archdeacon at the Großmunter Reformed Church in Zurich, and then he was the antithesis of the Zurich church as a successor of Argote. So he wrote a lot, and RHB recently published his homilies on Ruth, but his most famous work, which is also the first work we republished for Berith Press, is his work on ghosts and spirits, and it was printed a lot.

It had editions in German, Latin, French, English, and Italian. I was very curious to discover that there had been no modern typeset version, and I made kind of a strange discovery. When I was looking around, I found this was actually a book that lots of people who were interested in Halloween witches, those kind of types, were actually reading this book and talking about it, while no one in Reformed circles really seemed too aware of it, and I thought this was a strange phenomenon.

I think it's just down to the fact that Retrieval is focused on some of the central theological issues, and as we move forward in time, more people get into Retrieval, and we're able to pick up more different topics and find out more writings about them.

The internet makes it all quicker. But yeah, that's how I came across—I can't remember how I first saw it. I may have been looking for a book to put out, because we launched in October 2023. It was around about the time of Halloween, so I thought maybe we could find something on this.

I think I found it on Gutenberg at first, and then it was just a case of cleaning it up and turning it into a book. So that is the story of how I initially got to grips with Ludwig Lavater and his work of Ghosts and Spirits Walking by Night, some copies of which are on their way to you, Chris.

Yes, and I want to—I failed to mention this at the outset of the program—I want to tell our listeners what a beautiful job you do at Bareth Press with the actual binding of these books, in addition to the typeface and so on.

You're talking about high-quality books here. The last book that you sent me was a gorgeous hardcover, and I'm assuming that from what I just saw when you held up the book, that this current book that we're discussing of Ghosts and Spirits Walking by Night, that's a softcover?

Yeah, this one's softcover. Usually the shorter books I do are softcovers just to kind of keep the price down, and the chunkier works I'll put in a hardcover. But yeah, we have a mix, but yeah, this one we have as a softcover.

Well, you do a really wonderful job. It's quite impressive, and it's amazing that for a publisher that—is it just a two—I shouldn't say two-man operation, because you do it with your wife—two-person operation?

It is, yeah. It's just two-person. So we do have transcribers who work with us, and they edit on their computer and then send it over to us, and we finalize it. But yeah, usually I do the books. Jamie will do the covers.

And yeah, by God's grace, we're thrilled that people like yourself are able to enjoy it, and we're very glad you said that. Thank you.

Before I forget, I'd like to let our listeners know, because of the topic we're discussing, you may also be interested in tuning in. Mark your calendars for Wednesday, the 22nd of July. I have returning to the program—I believe this is his third interview—Dr. Keith Evans of the Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina.

He is one of the very rare Reformed theologians who has his doctorate in demonology, and he is going to be discussing the phenomena of selling one's soul to the devil. And we'll be addressing, or at least mentioning, some famous figures from history who have claimed to have done that, and what is actually going on in these claims, and is this, like some might say, a permanent situation that one cannot be freed from, and everything that you'd like to know about that creepy subject.

But I hope that you tune in to what I'm sure is going to be a fascinating interview. In fact, I wanted to have Dr. Evans co-host today's program with me, but he could not because Fridays are his counseling days.

He's all day long counseling. He is a biblical counselor, so in addition to being on the faculty at RTS. So anyway, mark your calendar for Wednesday, July 22nd. So what was it that provoked, that you know of anyway, that provoked Ludwig Lavater to write this book?

I mean, it must have been such a phenomenon, even in the 16th century, that he believed it needed to be addressed from a biblically sound point of view.

Why Lavater Wrote on Ghosts and Spirits

Yes, so that sounds fascinating, by the way. I do want to tune in to Dr. Evans. I've been meaning to listen to his interview with you before, so I have to go back and listen to that, and then hope to catch him again.

And yeah, it's a shame he couldn't make it. I fully understand that. But yeah, so Ludwig Lavater, he says,. Many, not only of the common sort, but also men of excellent knowledge, do marvel whether there are any spirits or not, and what manner of things they are.

Yea, and some of my familiar friends have many times requested me to show them my opinion concerning these matters. Wherefore, it seems it should be worthy of my labour, if I declare briefly and plainly out of the word of God what we ought to judge concerning these things.

In other words, he was being, he not only noticed in society, people were very interested in this topic, but he was also being asked by his friends, you know, what do you think about this? What do you think?

And so that seems to be what compelled him to write the book. It was, you know, due to popular demand, one might say.

And what was the reaction to the book, if you know, what his peers, colleagues, and others had to say about him writing this book? Did he receive criticism, et cetera?

Well, I'm not sure that the, what I do have is I have the translator's preface. So immediately we can see that the work was held in high esteem because it was translated into so many languages. And the translator, he actually, Robert Harrison, and I don't think he's well known beyond his translation, but he said, whereas many have both learned painfully and religiously travailed, so amongst others, none, in my judgment, has more handsomely, eloquently, with more judgment and better method, discourse the same than Louis Lavaterus, the Minister of Ticarine.

Others have handled it well, but yet being either too short or too long or too dark or too doubtful or otherwise so confused, they leave the reader more in suspense in the end than they found them in the beginning.

So sometimes you might come across a topic and you read a book and you end up with more questions and answers. I think I've, you know, I've had that feeling before, or at least thinking, oh, well, that's not quite, it's not quite scratched the itch I have.

So it seems that at least within some circles, there has been, you know, it was well received. It was considered valuable. I don't know if there was any opposition. I can't imagine so. It's always possible.

I'm not aware of any books that were written against it. And it certainly, as I said earlier, developed this kind of strange cult following, actually among the occult-ish who want to read about it. But yeah, so it seems to have had a broad appeal, but yet it's been one of those forgotten works, which that's OK, you know, by God's grace, it's now in the public consciousness.

And I hope more and more, you know, as time goes by, I hope more and more people will pick it up and also share it with friends. I think this is a good work. If you have someone who is involved in witchcraft, then maybe this is something that would pique their interest because it is written from a reform point of view, and it might help them seek, see sense, you know.

Sounds in the Night, Evil Spirits, and Demonic Deception

And the kinds of stories that were common back then in the 16th century, when Lavater wrote this book, were they basically the same that we are hearing even today? People hear, even if they know that they are alone in the house, they hear someone walking around.

Of course, in most of the old movies that have been intended perhaps especially for children, spooky movies, you hear chains rattling and you hear moaning, you hear the sounds of whispering voices and all those kinds of things.

Were they basically the same kinds of stories?

Yeah, it's very much things that go bump in the night. He will talk about sounds which are heard in the house and why these kind of sounds will appear. And he'll talk about how it happens particularly at night and he rationalizes, well, you know, the devil is the prince of darkness, so little wonder that he should work by night.

And yeah, he talks about how there will be creaks as well. You might hear, well, a creak that sounds and these can cause fear. And also because, you know, at night you might be dreaming and so people have had bad dreams and he talks about those too and how that can affect people.

He says, you know, if a sudden crack or sound of groaning or rumbling as though the house would fall or if any other chance, any other thing, chance which stands by natural reason, it does not properly belong to this matter which we have at hand.

But letting these things pass, we will, by God's aid, come nearer to the matter itself. So he basically says that, yeah, oftentimes there are sounds and oftentimes it's nothing, but sometimes you do hear something and you can come across even evil spirits.

He actually lists the different types of evil spirits that either exist or people believe to exist. He doesn't necessarily distinguish between them, but it was a very common belief at the time. For example, in succubuses and incubuses, it was a popular belief even that men could, you know, have relations with demons that would take the form of humans.

Yeah, sexual relations. Yeah, I can see if I... Yeah, I've just been editing a book which is, it's kind of tangential, but just to show you it wasn't just Lavater, by Wilhelm Zephyr who, he wrote the most authoritative reform treatment on the threefold division of the law.

He wrote a whole book on the judicial laws of Moses and how they should be applied in Christian societies today. But he has a whole long section, very matter-of-fact, about sexual relations with demons and he treats it as something which can occur.

C-A-N, it can occur.

Yes, can. Now, Lavater says this, he says, he talks about incubi and succubi. He says, if it's ephialte and hyphialte, that is incubi and succubi, which we call nightmares, and night spirits, or rather devils, which leap upon men in their sleep.

And then he says, the positions upon these are nothing else but a disease. So there's some, you know, disagreement between the authors or some kind of breadth of opinion. But in Lavater's case, he does say that although oftentimes people will, people will confuse a sight or a sound for a demon, nevertheless, sometimes demons can occur.

He also spends a lot of time, this is really interesting, he spends a lot of time talking about where men have pretended to be spirits, spirits of the dead. He talks about that in the Roman Catholics.

For example, I think there was a priest who tried to seduce a woman, and she would not succumb to his demands. So then he dressed himself up as a sheath, and appeared to her as the Virgin Mary, warning her of the judgments which were coming upon the town because of Luther's doctrine.

Oh, and by the way, if a man comes to you and suggests you go with him, do not resist him any longer. And so that's how he managed to seduce the woman.

So she believed it. She bought that.

Hey, there are silly women by the lust, and I think she was one of them, or maybe, you know, the guilt of being a Romanist kind of weighed her down, or an evil spirit, who knows?

The Blessed Virgin told you to fornicate, and you're going to do it. That's interesting.

Well, yeah. It's a shame, but yeah. And lots of stories like this of ministers, those who would pretend to be spirits, because the papal doctrine, and I think this is kind of the key point of the book, is what Labate is really addressing is the belief within Roman Catholicism that souls can return from the place of the dead.

The Romanists believe there are four places where the soul can go after death. We believe in two, right? Heaven and hell. And we often think of, well, the Romanists believe in three. It turns out they believe in four.

They believe in Limbum, I think it's called Limbus Patrum, which is basically a resting place for the children of believers, for example.

Yeah, we used to call it Limbo. I was raised Catholic, and when we were in Catholic school, we were taught that unbaptized babies went to Limbo. Although, from what I came to understand later in life, I've learned more about Catholicism as a Protestant than as a Catholic, but I've learned that that is not a dogmatic teaching.

It was just a theory.

Oh, really? Interesting. Well, when Labate is writing about it, I think he's citing…. Let me see if I can read the section to you. So he says that there are polytheist writers who comment on the Master of the Sentences.

So, okay, right now it's all about Aquinas. Everyone, when you think Roman Catholicism, you think Aquinas, and that's mainly because he's been translated into English, I believe. But if you were looking at papal writers in the 17th, 16th century, they were all reading Peter Lombard, the Master of the Sentences, and they'd often write commentaries on the fourth book of the Master of the Sentences.

I thought that Doug Wilson was the Master of the Sentences. I'm only kidding.

Yeah. There you go. Right. But basically, at least the consensus among the scholastic was there were four places, and so the third place was Limbo Quorum, the Children of the Faithful. As of the unfaithful, so basically any children who died would go there.

But the fourth place being Purgatory, those who depart without deadly sin, or those who did commit mortal sin but committed some penance, so they hadn't yet achieved full satisfaction, so you go to Purgatory.

Now, here's where it gets interesting, right? For our purposes, it didn't work for this book. The scholastics would then ask the question, how we request for the souls of those who have departed to show themselves and be seen by the living?

And you'd shudder at the thought of it, right? Because we're Protestant-trained, and we know that's spooky and demonic, and we wouldn't do that. But apparently, according to Thomas Aquinas, it is no offence at all because dead men's souls do of their own accord show themselves unto the living to receive help from them, and therefore nothing can stop us from asking a thing at God's hand.

So basically, if it were brought with some good intent, that a man might understand the state of some friend, neighbor, benefactor of his parent, or some other, thereby to help and relieve them speedily of their torment.

So basically, if you could do it for a good cause, then you could request to see the soul of the departed.

Tom Clougherty. Really. See, this is very important because of the skyrocketing what's the word I'm looking for? infatuation among Protestants, and perhaps even especially Reformed Protestants like you and I.

Thomas Aquinas has become a rock star. He has become a superhero, which boggles my mind because there are some, many Reformed theologians and pastors who think that they can understand the Scriptures and even their own confessions and creeds if they look and read these things through the lenses of Thomas Aquinas.

And yet, if you really believe that the consequences of embracing a false gospel will send you to eternal torment, Thomas Aquinas is going to be there because he believed in the same false gospel that centuries later was dogmatized at Trent.

So anyway, pretty amazing. What you just said, is that in this book by Laverter?

Tom Clougherty. Yeah, it is. Hey, there are some things I can read from Aquinas where, okay, you've got it right there. But yeah, the idea of kind of uncritically reading him without putting what he said against Scripture, that was very dangerous.

So yeah, it's page 148 of the Berith Press edition. This is from part two, which is basically, he's kind of setting up the idea that, okay, why do people believe that they are being visited by the souls of their loved ones?

Well, one big reason is because within Roman Catholic theology, which was the zeitgeist of his time, it wasn't this secularism that we have nowadays. Right now, we're swimming against the tide, being Protestants in a secular society.

But back then, he would be swimming against the tide of what everyone believed because of Roman Catholicism. But actually, kind of in our day, people will believe that too, that I spoke to my grandma on a Ouija board or wherever it was, and they answered questions.

Well, yeah, he's talking about, well, firstly, why do people believe that they can communicate with the dead? And secondly, and then he's moving on to say, well, how the devils then will use that to manipulate people, even though the devils, which may have some knowledge, they are not the souls of the dead.

And he has a really interesting scriptural discussion on the first biblical passage that the mind would go to would be, well, what about Samuel and Saul? Did Saul not bring back Samuel? And this is a really interesting section.

I don't know if you have, like, you may disagree with me here, I don't know. But he gives reasons why the true Samuel did not appear to Saul. He says, no, it's a demonic apparition. And he gave a few reasons.

He says, one, well, Saul already asked the Lord for help, and the Lord refused to do so, either by the Urim, you know, the Urim and Tunim, or by the prophets. So if God would not give Saul any help by the prophets ordinarily, well, he wouldn't do so by a dead prophet or extraordinarily, because the law of God forbids necromancy.

Secondly, he says, the raising of Samuel could only have been done by the power of God or the power of Satan. And as God forbade necromancy, it couldn't be by his power, and therefore by the power of Satan.

Yet Satan, through magic, has no power to raise the saints and disturb them from their rest. So while magicians can harm, they have no such power over the dead, and nor would neither would God give this power to Satan.

The third point he makes would be bringing Samuel back was done either by his will, willing consent or without. But the witch had no power over Samuel's will, and Satan has no such power over the godly.

The heathens believed they could summon Jupiter Alesius down from heaven, but their words had no power, as Pliny and Cilius Rediginus confirm. Fourth point, he says, if it were really Samuel, he would not have allowed Saul to worship him, as Saul does in 1 Samuel 28, 1 Samuel 28, 14.

The angel rebukes John in Revelation for worshiping him. Now Aquinas, again, tries to distinguish the worship of angels into Dulia, which is acceptable for men and angels, and Latria, which is only for God.

But the angel clearly didn't even allow Dulia worship. When Cornelius bows before Peter, Peter tells him to get up. And when Elijah's disciples bow before Elijah in 2 Kings 2 .15, we're not told if Elijah rebuked them or not, but we can't allow that Samuel received such worship.

The fifth point is, if it had been the true Samuel, he would have exhorted Saul to repentance and willed him to wait on God and put his confidence in him. But this Samuel provided no comfort as a prophet, only telling him that God was displeased with him.

And the sixth point is, he cites church fathers who said that the true Samuel was not seen. Tertullian said, God forbid that the devil should draw any man out of his proper place. Satan transformed himself into an angel of light much sooner into a man of light.

And Augustine said, while such an act might be possible, it would certainly not be via the power of magic. So that is a quite detailed, exegetical approach. So you know, he's not just saying what he thinks and slapping the reform label on it.

He's trying to think through scriptural questions and derive doctrine from it.

Lavater, Aquinas, and the State of the Dead

Now, have any Roman Catholic apologists and sources, even those that were contemporaries of Lavater, claimed that he was misquoting and slandering Aquinas? Because that's a pretty big deal to say that one of their doctors of the church was promoting necromancy.

I mean, I believe that all veneration of the saints is necromancy. But they, at least today, they would say that although we can pray to saints and we can receive blessings from them as a result, and some people have in their teaching the so-called blessing of seeing apparitions of these saints, but they do not permit people to actually call upon their deceased loved ones, from what I understand.

They're forbidden from seeking mediums and things like that. But anyway, do you know of any pushback of claims that Aquinas did not endorse this?

I don't know. I mean, it's kind of a passing reference, even in Lavater. I mean, what I could do is, you know, I may just out of interest look into what Aquinas actually says. And I mean, I don't think I saw a reference to it in Lavater, at least not in the translation.

I'll look back, maybe there is something. But yeah, no, I'm not aware of any pushback. I mean, yeah, no, I don't think so. I mean, it's possible Bellarmine said something, but it's just not something I've seen.

I will research that just out of interest. And maybe next time, if we do this again, I can.

Have an answer for you. Okay. And we have to go to our first commercial break. And if you have a question, please submit it to chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-S-E-N at gmail .com.

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Church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order. Hello, this is Brian Nye, President of Hearts for the Lost Ministry. Our.

Sole mission is to serve the local church and work directly with and alongside pastors and elders with their efforts to equip, excite, and educate their flock in biblical evangelism. We also provide practical experience opportunities in sharing the gospel directly within your immediate community.

We accomplish this mission with training and Christ-centered outreach events designed to equip the church and proclaim the good news of the gospel. Our services are always 100 free. If you're looking to equip and mobilize your church for a faithful gospel witness, please partner with us.

Hearts for the Lost Ministry, serving the church, proclaiming the gospel. Contact us today at heartsforthelost .com. That's heartsforthelost .com. Now, have a heart and go share your faith. This program is sponsored by Hope PR Ministry.