SRR 116 Kanye West Comes to Christ?

I do a podcast.

I'm not interested in your podcast. The anathema of God was for those who denied justification by faith alone. When that is at stake, we need to be on the battlefield, exposing the error and combating the error.

We are unabashedly, unashamedly Clarkian. And so, the next few statements that I'm going to make, I'm probably going to step on all of the Vantillian toes at the same time. And this is what we do at Simple Riff around the radio, you know.

We are polemical and polarizing Jesus style.

I would first say that to characterize what we do as bashing is itself bashing. It's not hate, it's history. It's not bashing, it's the Bible.

Jesus said, woe to you when men speak well of you. For their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way. As opposed to, blessed are you when you have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness.

It is on. We're taking the gloves off. It's time to battle.

Pastor Hines’s Departure and a Word of Encouragement

Alright, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the podcast. My name is Tim, and you are listening to Simper Rifframanda Radio, where the Bible alone and the Bible in its entirety is applied to all of life.

So, today I have with me Carlos Montijo and Hiram Diaz. And I don't know if it's already been announced, but Hiram is officially a co-host of Simper Rifframanda Radio. We're going to be inviting him on to every episode that we do.

And so that's exciting for us, because if I can't make it, then Carlos can record with Hiram or vice versa. So, guys, big thanks to you. Just want to give you an opportunity to say hello, and then we'll get started.

Hey, I'm just glad to be here. Thanks.

Yeah, it's good to have Hiram on the show more regularly, so I'm looking forward to that.

So, today what we're going to do is we're going to put up an old conversation that you guys had. You guys had a side conversation in the last episode that you recorded about Kanye West. There's a lot of talk about Kanye West, and I thought it would be good to just, you know, get this out there.

There are some things that I have concerns about. I will say that I do think that Kanye West needs to sit down, disappear for a while, and get grounded in the faith. So that way, you know, he doesn't lead people into error.

So that's all I'm going to say about that. We're going to play just the conversation that you guys had. But before we do that, there's another item that we need to address. And Carlos, did you want to make the announcement?

Regarding Pastor Hines?

Yeah.

Yes, so we have some sad news, but regarding Pastor Hines, that he's going to part way with us for the foreseeable future. But he sent us a very encouraging note that he wanted us to read to him.

Read for him.

Yeah, read for him. We left on good terms. There's no animosity. There's nothing negative. We're on good terms. We're still, you know, brothers. We still very much appreciate everything that he's done for us and on the podcast.

I was greatly blessed by so much of his material. I learned a great deal, and I even took a lot of his recommendations for church history. The church history curriculum that I've been preparing for our church, hopefully in the near future.

So I've been very grateful for him and all that he's done for us. And did you want me to read his note?

Yeah, yeah, go ahead and do that.

All right, so this is what Pastor Hines wanted us to say. He says, I think it would be more beneficial to do so separately. I am thankful for Thorn Crown being so clear on the heart of the gospel, which is justification by belief alone in Christ alone.

They are one of the few podcasts I know of which have such a strong commitment to the biblical gospel. Carlos's article in response to John Piper is not only the best and most comprehensive response I've seen to Piper, it is also one of the best summaries of the gospel that I have ever read.

I hope Tim and Carlos will continue to study and perhaps consider being elders or pastors if God will call them in his providence to do so, and the members of a local church recognize their gifts and talents.

When I see young men who are so committed to the Bible, committed to the gospel, committed to defending the gospel in the public square, and who have such a heart to see the world to come to Christ, it gives me hope.

Every Sunday morning since I was ordained, I ask God to raise up principled, godly men for gospel ministry who will not be moved by the winds of doctrinal shift, culture shift, and apostasy. Tim and Carlos are answers to those prayers.

I plan to continue doing podcasts via sermon audio and YouTube as time and life circumstances allow. My podcasts will remain in the archive of Thorn Crown. I am sure Tim, Carlos, and I will continue to text each other from time to time, and I will continue to listen in and pray for the hard work of these dear friends and brothers.

Sincerely, Rev. Patrick Hines. So I was greatly encouraged by that. That almost brought me to tears. That means a lot coming from somebody like him and of his degree and stature, so I was really blessed to hear that from him.

Very encouraging.

Yeah, he referenced your article and, you know, it's interesting because he actually helped me with my article to my former church. He was one of the men that I had submitted that to before publication, and I mean, I can't even say thank you enough for all that he did for me because that was a pretty dark time, you know, going through that whole controversy, and he really came alongside me and encouraged me.

Every time I sent him a text, he replied. He told me to send him the letter before it was published, and, you know, he basically gave it a thumbs up and said, yeah, you know, you need to put this out there.

And we're saddened that we're going to part ways, but, you know, there's a lot to consider here because he is a pastor of a church, and, you know, there are differences, I guess, between the Reformed Baptists and the Presbyterians, and, you know, his content is his content.

If he wishes to take it down, he can take it down. If he wishes to leave it up, he can leave it up. We have no problem with the Presbyterian side putting content up that's particular to their view of baptism or covenant theology.

We have no problem with that. And so, you know, I think the other thing is that, you know, he's really dealing with a lot with his own denomination, and he's having to fight some major battles in his own denomination.

So if God puts it on you to pray for him, pray for him in strength to fight these battles. And that can just become wearisome. It can be tiresome and, you know, not wanting to take up the discussion on, you know, the Baptist issue in light of all the other issues that are going on in the church.

I mean, he's at the forefront of fighting for the LGBT, you know, fighting against the LGBT controversy that's, you know, coming up in the churches. And there's just, there's so much, you know, it can become tiresome.

So I personally just, I can't say enough good about Pastor Hines. It would be, you know, it would be on my heart for him to just know how much we care for him and how much we respect him. So anybody else want to add anything else before we play the rest of the episode?

I think it's cool that with Pastor Hines and other Presbyterians here, it's obvious that the main point of agreement is the gospel. And that's the point of unity between us. And I think it's awesome because, you know, it's a question that I've had before.

In terms of Presbyterian and Reformed Baptist fellowship and where they draw the line in terms of like, can we worship with them, alongside them? Some Reformed Baptists say yes, some Pater Baptists say no, etc.

But it's just cool to see that there's a commonality. There's a common faith in the gospel, you know.

Amen. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean.

Well, and the other thing is that, sorry Carlos. Well, and the other thing is, you know, different people are in different circumstances, you know. If we're putting out content about baptism that he disagrees with and he's ministering to a church, he might feel compelled to have to address every single one of those things, those items.

And, you know, maybe there's not time. So there's a lot more to think about in terms of where people are in their ministry. If you just have a podcast where, you know, you're not responsible for leading a church, like it might be a little bit different.

But Carlos, what were you going to say?

No, just that Pastor Irons said he was still trying to make sense of Reformed Baptist covenant theology. And he's still going to read up on it and try to grasp it better and to make better sense of it and so to understand it better.

So I'm thankful for that. And I still hope to talk to him and seek counsel from him. He's a very, very wise pastor, very, very learned, very well read. And I really appreciate and respect him for that.

So I'm grateful for the time we had with him and looking forward to our future discussions with him. And it might not be the very end of seeing him pop up in the network. You know, we might still post some good sermons from him and stuff like that if he's cool with that.

And I don't think you'll have a problem with that. So, yeah, looking forward to that.

Federal Vision, Doug Wilson, and Other Battles Ahead

Yeah, and, you know, we're going to be tackling a lot of the same issues. We want to tackle the federal vision stuff that's coming up. We do think that Doug Wilson is a problem. We're very concerned about the fact that James White and Jeff Durbin are just locked.

What is it? They're lockstep with Doug Wilson.

Yep.

Yeah, that's really concerning. And it's like I'm wondering, you know, who who I mean, that that's really that's really a concern. So, you know, hopefully he'll talk about those issues. We'll talk about those issues, the stuff on the LGBT stuff.

You know, we're going to be tackling a lot of the same issues. So hopefully we can even do interviews with him in the future. And but it's just not going to it's not going to be a regular thing. So with that said, Heinz, we love you.

Thank you. God bless you. We pray for you and keep fighting the fight. And with that, we'll just go ahead and play the conversation that you guys had about Kanye West. If you guys have any questions or comments, you can always email us at Carlos.

You got the information on Crown Ministries at Gmail dot com.

And then if we have had a few calls on the on the phone number, so let's give that out again. I think that's cool. If you want to call us, you can call us at. Do you have the number?

Yeah, let me pull it up. You can leave us a voicemail to our number, which is. Yeah, the number to our our network is nine one five three zero two zero nine one five. You can leave us a voicemail, drop us an email.

We'd be happy to respond.

All right.

Well, let's get to that episode. Thank you guys very much.

Whether Kanye West’s Profession of Faith Is Genuine

So the recent happenings with Kanye West, have you. Have you heard anything about that?

Yeah, I think pretty much what everyone else has been hearing that Kanye has. Well, he started his Sunday services or Sunday events where it's basically like a concert. But he would also say a few words of admonishment or encouragement.

And he had some certain Christian leaders there making music as well. And that apparently he's being discipled by a Calvinist pastor.

Right.

A guy who I guess he goes to the Master Seminary, if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah.

And that's what I heard. I know there's a podcast, but I haven't listened to it where the pastor is being interviewed and they're asking questions about Kanye and stuff. So that's about the extent of what I know.

Yeah.

So so what do you think? I mean, like, do you think it's genuine? Do you think we still have to wait a little bit? Like, what are your thoughts on that?

I think you got to wait.

Yeah.

When I look in the New Testament, profession of faith in the gospel is, you know, that's what counts you as a brother, basically. And works that don't correspond to that profession sort of out you as not being converted.

Right.

So when I look at a book like Corinthians and I see the mess that that church is in, and yet I hear Paul talking to them as their brothers and sisters. It really it's it's always been one of those things that causes me to pause when I see somebody else's works not being necessarily pristine, but not meeting the expectations that I personally have.

Because Paul had even greater expectations for the church than I do. And when he talks to the Corinthians, he calls them brothers. You know, he doesn't he doesn't he doesn't beat around the bush about sin.

He doesn't ignore the fact that they're in sin. He calls them up and he warns them, you know.

But. Yeah.

He still calls them brothers, you know. So with Kanye, you know, if anything, he's hearing the gospel being preached. He's hearing sound teaching and the people that are speaking to him about the gospel are doing what they're supposed to be doing.

You know, so but I think we should we should wait before saying, well, he definitely is a brother or saying, well, he hasn't done X, Y and Z to show that he is a brother. Because that sanctification is a process that happens and, you know, it happens at different speeds in different lives.

You know.

Yeah.

I'm glad you brought up those two points. So I like that you brought up second Corinthians because it's interesting how Paul he affirms the church initially. There's a balance there that he's making because he's affirming the church initially.

But then he closes with a very severe admonition to examine yourself, to see if you are in the faith. It's it's not an examination to see if you're doing all right. It's an examination to see if you're even saved.

And so he leaves them with that very strong admonition. And I think and I'll see. I'll get you. I wanted to kind of see what you think about this, because I've been thinking about this a lot. And recently and I've heard people on both sides.

Some people are more sympathetic to him. And I'm not going to. So I did listen to the interview and I read the article that won a blog. I forgot what website it was, but I did read and listen to the interview.

And it's some very promising, very encouraging stuff. It's kind of surprising because you obviously you don't see that every day. And then somebody like Kanye West, who was pretty bad. I mean, this guy, his music was not at all sound.

And, you know, despite his occasional, you know, Jesus walks stuff and things like that. But so but I wanted. So this you have to I think you I think it's important to consider the issue of context. And this is where context, I think, is extremely important because for so back in the Lordship Salvation episodes that we did a while back.

We talked about we talked about Peter saying, repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins. And in that command was a specific context because they were right next to water. And they were assuming that the earth wasn't going to end the minute they finished preaching.

And that people would follow up when they believed and get baptized right then and there. So there's a context there that you have to consider. And it's one of the reasons why I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't tell the thief on the cross to get baptized because he couldn't.

He was a little constrained there. Right. So there's context. You have to take context into consideration. And I think Kanye's context calls for a very specific situation to really, really show if he's if he's really going to stay.

And he's been showing some tremendously promising fruit. I'm definitely encouraged to see that. It is very encouraging. He he's like he told he basically told the pastor that he got radically saved and that he wants to serve Jesus and that he wants to like make nothing but Christian music now.

And he's even submitting his lyrics to the pastor that's discipling him. And he's flying him in like every Tuesday or something to have Bible studies. And and he's even like and he is evidencing some fruit, some legitimate looking fruit.

Like he's people if people cuss in his Bible study, he's like, hey, you can't cuss anymore. You can't cuss around me. I'm a I'm a Christian now. And like he'll he'll call people out and stuff like that.

So, I mean, it looks very promising, but there's just I see one big problem. And I just see one major and maybe it's not a problem. It's more of a it's more of a I think this needs to happen. And it hasn't from what I've seen, it hasn't happened yet.

So in the article that they published, they interviewed the pastor who is discipling Kanye. And he said until he offers a reason to not believe he's been transformed by the gospel, there's no reason to doubt his faith.

Well, I actually do have a reason and there are other people who have had the same reason. And that is, has he passed the rich young ruler test? And I think this is where we come back to context, because a man of his stature, a man of his platform with that much money and influence, it's it's it calls for a slightly different context when we're talking about the issue of salvation.

That's why the rich young ruler came up to Jesus. He was very adamant and showing him, hey, I've kept all these commandments from my youth up. And then Jesus tells him, if you wish to to to to come with me, you need to sell all you have and and sell everything and take up your cross and come after me.

Or, you know, paraphrasing it by basically telling him there's a he needs to do something in order to show that he's really willing to come. And he went away very grieved. And I think I think this is part of the context that we need to consider with respect to people like Kanye with celebrities, because so often what happens, they they stick around for a season and then they fall away and they go straight back to what they were doing.

So what I'm getting at is basically this. Has he publicly denounced his secular music and platform? And it's funny because he tells people not to cuss in his Bible studies. But what about all of his albums where he's cussing endlessly and pretty much all of his songs, including the same album that has Jesus walks?

And and here's here's part of the problem. Part of the problem is that if if he doesn't do that and he claims Christ at the same time without renouncing his old life. People, impressionable youth in the church is going to start thinking it's OK to listen to his old music.

And that's part of why this is so important, because he's a Christian now, so it's OK. And that's exactly what happened when he released Jesus walks. There was there was churches, there was people, young people in churches thinking, hey, we have a song now from Kanye.

We can listen to it. And then they ended up and they ended up going down a very bad road because he was not a Christian. And and his stuff is not his stuff is incredibly satanic. Like he's got Illuminati stuff up.

He he has an album where he's putting he's he calls himself Horace, I think. And like putting all this Egyptology and Egyptian false god worship. I mean, he's got a bunch of crazy stuff going on.

So there's a Freemason, I think the one. Yeah. Our video where it's all Freemason imagery in slow motion.

Yeah, the whole. Yeah, straight up like he was all over the place. So I think I think that's why it's important to consider that. Because you can't. And this is my concern, like, has the pastor talked to him about that specific thing?

Because they've talked about a lot of things. But my concern is, have you given him that rich young ruler question? Is he willing to renounce and sell all that he has to come to Christ? Because how can you expect Kanye to keep his old platform that he built in his words, running away from God and cursing him?

And still stay with that platform like he himself said he was running away from God. So I think that is important to show people that if you're really going to pass that, you have to pass that test. There has to be that test where you you show that you're willing to renounce it.

You renounce your old life. And I haven't seen that yet. So and I'm hoping it does happen. I'm hoping they do talk about it, you know.

Well, can I give my input on that?

Sure, sure.

Well, the rich young ruler thing I think is a little bit different. Like, I get what you're saying. But remember when the rich young ruler comes to Christ, he says, what do I have to do to inherit eternal life?

And the Lord tells him, you know the commandments. And he goes over the list of the commandments. And he says, all these I have kept from my youth. So when the Lord tells him, renounce your life, basically, go sell all you have and give it to the poor and follow me.

That's essentially him saying, are you really keeping the law? You know what I mean? It's a test in that sense. It's saying, are you really as righteous as you think you are? You know, because he's pointing out the fact that this guy's idol is his money.

I mean, maybe that's what you're talking about as well. But from what I've heard about Kanye, apparently he recognizes that he is an abject sinner and needs the grace of God. And to me, that sounds like a different sort of attitude than the rich young ruler.

But I don't know. I don't know what's going on behind the scenes. But I do understand what you're saying. There are a lot of people who make a profession of faith who, you know, they're flakes. They come and they go.

You know, they're like the seed that was sown on shallow ground or sown on the rocks. It basically sprouts up really fast and then it dies when persecution comes because it goes back to its old way of life.

But another thing that I've been thinking about, because I did think about the whole money and the past records and stuff like that thing with Kanye, is I don't know what his you know, we don't know what his contracts with his old record labels are like.

We don't know if he has control over that music. You know what I mean? Because when you're in the music industry, sometimes you have control over the masters of your music and sometimes you don't. And if you don't, then you don't really have a say in what's going to be happening with the music.

You know what I mean? And so I don't know. That's something I thought about. Like maybe there is something that he's trying to do to address that situation. Maybe he is talking to the pastor about it behind the scenes, but he doesn't want to make it public because of legal ramifications or something.

I don't know. But should he be worried about legal ramifications if he's a Christian? No, right? So, I mean, like, I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. And I appreciate you bringing that up about the Richard Wheeler's motives. Because obviously Christ was exposing his idol, which was his possessions gave him his identity.

And he didn't want to renounce the possessions because he felt he was renouncing his identity. And that's what I'm referring to with Kanye. Because are you willing to renounce all of that, your old identity, your old self, and truly walk with Christ?

Because the thing is, one thing that I think, I appreciate G. Craig Lewis. He shed a lot of light on this issue. And basically he talks about how the production companies, they own the artists. Like the artists have no rights whatsoever.

They're basically slaves to the contracts. And so that's probably the case with Kanye. I'm not exactly sure, but all of these major production companies, they basically own the artists. And so, yeah, he may not have much of a say.

But the principle is what matters, right? It's like renouncing your music, renouncing that, and telling people this is not who I am anymore. So you shouldn't be listening to this music because it's ungodly, it's sinful, whatever.

You know, whatever the case may be. But yeah, that's a good discussion. I think it's important to talk about this stuff because it's extremely easy to get confused. And it's incredibly common. That's why it's specifically dealing with the rich young ruler.

Because so many celebrities, there's been a lot with a lot of celebrities that supposedly come to Christ. They hang out for a while and then they leave. Because it's dealing with this identity issue of what do you identify with?

Are you going to identify with the self that you created with all of the money and success and fame? Or are you willing to renounce all of that and truly follow Christ? And let me be clear. I'm not advocating like a lordship salvation regarding rich people like Kanye.

What I'm saying is when you get saved and you are a high-profile celebrity that made a lot of money by cursing God and by sinning against him. You know, by writing ungodly music and all of these things.

Basically, you're going to have a lot of cleaning up to do after you get saved. It's not something that you have to do in order to get saved. But what I'm saying is if he truly is saved, he's going to have a lot of cleaning up to do.

And he's going to have to be willing to do it and do it. That's sort of his James 2 test. You're going to have to show that to prove that before men by renouncing your old life. And there's also a potential for a lot of damage that you can cause if you don't.

And so it's important to consider this as a…. I'm not talking about in order to get saved or to get right with God, he has to do this first. But if he's going to stay, this will be the evidence or the test that will bear him out.

That will prove whether or not he's really going to stay. If he's really going to stay and not just fall away or walk away. And because you have to… it's a question of context. Somebody like him has a lot more cleaning up to do, at least initially.

You have a lot more cleaning up to do. And many celebrities that get supposedly saved are not willing to do that cleaning up. And to remove their old identity and disassociate themselves from their old self.

So let me go ahead and read the gospel, the verse where he talks about the rich and the ruler. I'm in Matthew 19, starting in verse 16. Now behold, one came and said to him, Good teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?

So he, that is Jesus, said to him, Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. He said to him, Which ones? Jesus said, You shall not murder.

You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness. Honor your father and your mother, and you shall love your neighbor as yourself. The young man said to him, All these things I have kept for my youth, what do I still lack?

Jesus said to him, If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. And come, follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, Assuredly I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

So I'm going to quote a section, a footnote from my unpublished critique of Keller. Because I talk about the rich young ruler in it. So I'm going to start on the footnote. Lest anyone should think that Keller is right because Christ didn't contest the rich young ruler's claim to have kept the commandments from his youth, Christ had just told the young ruler that, quote, No one is good except God alone.

That's in Mark 10, 18 and Matthew 19, 17. Which is exactly what I'm arguing and what Keller denies. That no one, not the rich young ruler and certainly not the Pharisees, is good except God alone. In fact, Jesus' response to the young ruler's claim exposed his sin.

He refused to deny himself because he loved his money and the reputation that came with it. Which is why he was, quote, And went away grieving for he was one who owned much property. That's Mark 10, 22.

Here's Dr. R .C. Sproul. Commentators agree that with his answer in Matthew 19, 21 and Mark 10, 21, Jesus was putting his finger on this man's core problem. He was in love with his money. That love for money was affecting his obedience to all the other commandments.

Jesus could have said, okay, you say you kept all the commandments. Let's start at number one. You shall have no other gods before me. Young man, your money is your god. Your wealth is your idol. You cannot love money more than you love God and expect to enter his kingdom.

He could have done the same with the other commandments. This young man needed to set aside his idol and follow Jesus so as to gain a treasure that would never rust or fade away. That's from St. Andrew's Expositional Commentary on Matthew.

Again, this was exposing his core idol. This is what a lot of times celebrities are not willing to do. That's partly why Jesus said, he addressed specifically rich people, that it's harder for them to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.

They have a lot of renouncing to do. They have to be willing to renounce that lifestyle, the way they built up their fame and their fortune, if it was all contrary to God and opposing his will. It's almost like, in one sense, it's almost like blood money.

If you made a bunch of money selling crack and selling drugs, well, that's tainted money. Or if you made it illegally, that's tainted money. In a sense, that's what happens with people like Kanye. He made all of his fortune cursing, blaspheming, and sinning against God.

That's a problem. He has to reconcile that with being a Christian now. There has to be something. He has to be willing to renounce that, to sell it, to give it away, to do something with that. Again, not in order to get saved, but after he's saved, this will reveal whether he's really of us, as 1 John 2 says.

Whether he's really a believer, it will bear out. The fruit will manifest itself. Because ultimately, no one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other.

You cannot serve both God and mammon.

Kanye West, Joel Osteen, and the Need to Renounce an Old Life

Alright, so that was an older episode, and I really appreciate the conversation that Hiram and Carlos had. That conversation took place right after Kanye West became a Christian. And Carlos was saying that he's seen a lot of good things, and he listened to the interview, I think that was the interview done by Apology Radio, that they talked to Adam West, or shoot, I don't know, what's his name?

Adam Levine? No, that's not right. Pastor Adam, I forgot his last name. That'd be weird if it was West, Kanye West and Adam West, just the odds of that would be cool. But, you know, there's a lot of promising stuff, and recently there have been a lot of disturbing things.

Like Kanye West partnering with Joel Osteen. So initially I had a lot of hope, because I was like, okay, Adam seems to be a good guy, he knows the gospel, he understands the doctrines of grace, he understands that we're justified by faith alone, so this is good.

And I saw a lot of hope there. But now, I don't know what's up. I don't know what's up with Kanye. I think he's trouble. I'll just say it, I think he's trouble. There have been some major differences between what I would consider to be an experience like Paul, and what I'm seeing with Kanye.

You know, let's just think about this. Paul says that he was a Pharisee of Pharisees. He was a big deal. He was from the line of Benjamin. And when he came to Christ, he lost all of his status. He was not welcomed by the world in which he previously lived.