Chapel of the Air - Interview With Dr. Orr (Part 2) — J. Edwin Orr

Compared to the world, one person is small indeed, but both are important. So this visit will look at both, the world and the individual, as once again we discuss revival with Dr. J. Edwin Orr. Welcome to the Chapel of the Air.

David May is greeting you, my good friend, and if I'm correct, many of you have looked forward to today's visit almost as much as I have. Dr. J. Edwin Orr is an internationally respected authority on church history.

He holds doctorate degrees from Oxford University, the University of California at Los Angeles, and Northern Baptist Seminary. His studies of recent evangelical awakenings have gained wide recognition for their thoroughness and their accuracy.

Those who recognize the name Dr. J. Edwin Orr understand that revival is a topic close to his heart. I think wherever and whenever revival occurs, he is interested. As a writer and historian, Dr. Orr, is your concern primarily academic?

Revival as a Subject of Historical and Spiritual Importance

Not at all. I would say that it has become academic because of the necessity to prove the case to scholars. Amplify that a little bit more. Don't scholars believe in revival having value? I would say that there has been a steady campaign of denigration of revival this past 50 to 100 years.

Are there abuses that brought about that mindset, or what? No, I think Satan does not like movings of the Spirit of God, and I was asked about a certain well-known man, who perhaps we regard as one of the chief opponents of the whole subject.

So I said, how do you account for him? Well, I think of Wormwood and Screwtape, that particular department of denigration. Yes. Well, I am grateful for all the work that you have done as you have chronicled revival around the world.

Revival in Nagaland and the Effects of Spiritual Renewal

Let us look at the world through your eyes, Dr. Orr. Where is revival presently being experienced? I would say one of the prime examples today would be in Nagaland. Nagaland, of course, is north of Mizoram.

That is a great deal for us. North-west of Burma and north-east of Bangladesh. It is a self-governing state of India. Now, militaries got in there in 1872, and after 100 years, they had won about 100 ,000 active church members.

They wanted to celebrate their centenary, so, of course, they decided to have a grain campaign. But the Indian government would not give Bill Graham a visa. The question was raised in Parliament, and Mrs. Gandhi said, I will not give India a bad image by refusing a visa to a man as well-liked as Bill Graham.

So, he was given a permit for a very short visit, and the Nagas were disappointed. However, they set aside 1973 prayerful arrival in every church, 1974 consular training and anticipation of it, 1975 military considerations, and in 1976 the movement began.

Now, I told you that there were 100 ,000 active members in 1972. Today, 212 ,000. Now, that is the evangelistic outreach of the revival. I was invited there. It was too long a story to tell you how I got in, but I had a little bit of a wangler permit too, and it was the first time I had ever spoken in such a vast meeting that I couldn't see the people beyond the 20th row because of the fog, something Himalayas.

But I was asked there because they are having the problems of success. During the outpouring of the spirit in 1976, there were 12-year-old boys who prophesied in the name of the Lord. Today, some church members, when they want something done, they prompt their 12-year-old boy to get up in the church and speak.

That's an abuse of things. There were people who danced for joy, for sins forgiven. Now, some people say if you don't dance in a meeting, you're not filled with the spirit, and so on. But that movement is really a successful movement.

It's probably a classic revival movement. In Nagaland, now, that's not an advanced culture at all. No, in one sense, yes. The missions have been so successful that the standard of education is higher among the Nagas than the rest of India.

Isn't that fascinating? And that's really part of the history of revival, where society has improved as a result of the moving of the Lord. The first time I heard a Naga choir, they sang a song that gripped my mind so much that I brought the song to this country and abused it, How Great Thou Art.

Never the first I ever heard sing that. Isn't that fascinating? Now, is there an ebbing of the revival flow there through these abuses, or does it continue to go strong? No, you see, why I mention the abuses, if the devil can't stop revival, he will stampede it.

And the leaders of the churches, mercifully, didn't oppose the movement, although they saw certain weak features. But the movement is reaching into other areas, into Burma and all the states round about.

Revival in the Solomon Islands and Papua New Guinea

Go through the world in your mind just real quickly, and what other areas know revival in a special way right now? I would say the Solomon Islands and Papua New Guinea. Bishop Festo Cavangere visited the Solomons for the Saatchi Evangelical Mission, which is Plymouth Brethren and Baptist.

But he encouraged them to pray. They thought they were having revival, they were having such good meetings, but he said, no, no, a lot more is to come yet. He said that with his experience of the East African revival.

But through the wisdom of a Maori evangelist, Mary Thompson was his name, in the 70s there came this remarkable movement in the Solomon Islands. And there it's not judged by church growth because already the whole population was related to churches.

There would be Methodist religions and Roman Catholic religions, Anglican religions and so forth. But church attendance has been phenomenal since. It just happened before independence, and my friends who are Solomon Islanders, they prepared them for nationhood.

You have written a book on this, have you not? I've written a book called Evangelicals and Saatchis, which has some paragraphs in this. Yes, what factors do you see in places like this that contribute to revival that are different, say, than our own country?

Well, Alan Tippett, who is a church growth expert now in Australia, he points out that on the mission field there are two conversions. The conversion of heathen people from idols to serve the living God, but they still don't know the scripture.

Then maybe after a period of indoctrination they become thoroughly scripture acquainted, and the Holy Spirit begins to work among them, as among believers in other parts of the world. I'd say that's the main difference.

Personal Revival as Returning to God

Now, revival is a very extensive topic. We can talk about revival in the world or in a nation or a large metropolitan area, certainly a church, a family, but I want to reduce it down to its very limit here just in terms of being intensely personal.

Help us understand how someone can know revival individually. Describe what it looks like on a personal basis. I think that personal revival is when an individual gets right with God. Presupposedly he does know the Lord as Savior, but he comes under conviction of the shortcomings, whether it be prayerlessness or a bitter critical spirit or whatever.

But it essentially issues in the experience of Romans 12 and 1 where he presents his body a living sacrifice. Now, the verb present is in the aorist infinitive there. It's a point of action. The best translation of that would be in the C .B. Williams translation which is carried over into the amplified version to make a decisive dedication of his whole personality to God.

Actually, it's in the verbs who would be dedicated decisively your whole personality to God. He lets God have all there is of him. Then he becomes, shall we say, subject to the filling of the Holy Spirit.

I shudder to hear of people who claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit without any holiness of life. So that you're saying that even though this has happened, it's not a cure-all. It is a continuing process of the Spirit being given control of a life.

Well, you see, the Western emphasis is a crisis of commitment and the Calvinist emphasis would be a growth in grace. Kazik emphasizes a crisis with a mutual process. That's fascinating. And so it's continuing revival in that sense.

Guarding Personal Spiritual Renewal

In your own personal life, it seems like you've studied revival so long. Isn't it possible with a subject like this to grow sour on it after a while? How do you guard against this in terms of your own walk with the Lord?

Well, I feel, of course, the big fact is the servant of God. God calls people. There's a verse which I stir up the gift which I had with the laying on of hands. And actually, my call to the ministry was in the subject of revival.

The very first band of workers, although we were young evangelists, we called the Revival Fellowship in Ireland. And I find I just go back to where I was before. It so happened that in 1933, which is over 50 years ago, I came to a new experience with God myself at that time.

It meant putting things right with God and seeking to be filled with the Spirit and I believe answered prayer. And there was a long apprenticeship after that. I went out on a bicycle and I didn't see many results.

But then in my lifetime, I've seen times of revival. So that I can speak from experience. But it's a case of just renewing one's vows. On a constant basis, isn't it? Share with us, if you don't mind, how you pray for revival in terms of your personal life.

Vision, Faith, and Claiming God's Promises

Maybe you've answered that already, but also as it relates to the world. Evan Roberts once said to me, Always pray for vision to match your faith. A man may have all the faith in the world, but if he doesn't have vision, he cannot apply it.

I've never forgotten Evan Roberts saying that. So I think vision is one of the important things. A vision of what God can do. You see, if a person doesn't believe there's going to be a revival before the Lord comes, he won't see revival.

He just is not a believer. There are two factors. Taking the promises of God. I've never forgotten Armand Gueswine saying that he met an old Methodist preacher in Long Island when he was a Missouri Lutheran pastor.

And he asked him, What's the secret of your prayer life? He said, Always plead the promises of God. But then ask God for vision. The vision so that you may apply it. One of my favorite passages is that, Write the vision.

Make it so plain that he who reads it will start running. That's been my call. So it's been a renewing thing. And when I get back to my original call, I feel the renewing power of the Holy Spirit. Do you hear people who are responding to your call telling you that?

I was preaching. I preached one Sunday a month for a pastor who has 7 ,500 in church on Sunday mornings. And I asked him, he wanted to videotape my talks. I asked him, Why are you so kind? Well, he said, I heard you in college and it turned my thinking around.

I get encouraged by that. Whenever suddenly it's encouraging to find where it's been an ongoing thing with other people that you never suspected would turn out that way. What would be a promise of God that you're claiming for this country as you go back to scripture in your mind?

A Promise for National Renewal in 2 Chronicles

I just think of the one that applies to all countries. And that is, if my people called by my name shall humble themselves and pray, seek my face, turn from the wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, we'll forgive this and we'll heal the land.

That is a promise that God made to the nation of Israel. But it applies to the people of God in any given country, whether it's Norway or Madagascar. Or Canada or the United States as well. Yes, praise the Lord.

Once again, Dr. Rye, thank you for sharing the rest of my questions, all of which relate to revival in a given local church I'm going to save for one last visit. That's because Ted Sealy needs the rest of the time to close.

That's right, David, I do. And I hope, friend, that you'll help me use that time well by listening carefully for the next few moments. Dr. Rye's accounts of revival clearly show that the first step toward spiritual change is persistent prayer.

Elijah's Prayer and the Priority of Prayer Before Revival

The truth of that fact, as far back as Elijah's time, will be David's broadcast theme starting next week. You may recall the biblical account of drought-stricken Israel needing rain to restore her parched land.

But the nation was spiritually parched too, in need of refreshing showers of revival. Answering Elijah's prayer, God signaled the coming refreshment with a little cloud like a man's hand. Prayer always precedes revival.

And don't you agree that North America needs people to pray like Elijah? If you're willing, we'd like to help you get started. To do that, we've prepared a set of clouds for you. And yes, they're shaped like a man's hand.

Actually, these are cloud symbols, and they're printed on pressure-sensitive stickers. They come in three sizes, all small enough for you to put in places where they'll remind you to pray for an end to our spiritual drought.

And the cost of this joint rain-making effort is simply your commitment to pray. To receive your set of prayer reminder stickers, write to us today at the Chapel of the Air, Wheaton, Illinois, 601 Canada.

It's the Chapel of the Air, Box 2000, Watertown, Ontario, LOR2HO. During these hot August days, many things can dry up quickly. And at the Chapel, it's the time when our financial resources often slow down to a trickle.

Your help is a reservoir of encouragement to get us through such dry times. And your gift of any size would be welcomed and needed. Again, our address is the Chapel of the Air, Wheaton, Illinois, 60189, or the Chapel of the Air, Box 2000, Watertown, Ontario, LOR2HO.

Join us tomorrow for David's final interview with Dr. J. Edwin Orr. Their timely discussion about revival in the local church will take place right here in the Chapel of the Air.