March 15, 2023 Show with Dr. William Webster AND David T. King on “Saving Faith: How Does Rome Define It?” (Part 2)

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 15th day of March 2023.

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And I am really getting pumped up because my two

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio events are coming up very soon next month.

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I am speaking of the next free Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastors' luncheon, which will be held at Church of the

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Living Christ in Louisville, Pennsylvania, and also a three -free -day

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Bible conference subsequent to that. The free pastors' luncheon will be held on Thursday, April 13th, 11 a .m.

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to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Louisville. And then the three -day free Bible conference will be held at Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

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All are free. There are differences. The free pastors' luncheon is only open to men in ministry leadership.

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And the other thing that is unique about the pastors' luncheon is that not only do you get to register for free and hear two messages of encouragement and edification that will challenge also men in the ministry for free, and not only will you be able to feast physically for free, but you will also leave that building with a heavy sack of free, brand -new books personally selected by me, donated by Christian publishers all over the

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United States and the United Kingdom. And also, the three -day Bible conference, the difference between that and the first event is that this is not only open to men, it's open to everyone, men, women, and children.

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And the theme of the three -day Bible conference is The Gospel, Removed by Rome, Rescued by the

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Reformers, and Rejected by Modern Evangelicals. And the two speakers at both of these events are my guests today.

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Dr. William Webster, pastor of Grace Bible Church of Battleground, Washington. He's an author and founder of Christian Resources.

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And also, Reverend David T. King, assistant pastor at Christ Church of Katy, Texas, which is a congregation in the

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Presbyterian Church in America denomination. And he is also co -author with Dr. William Webster of the three -volume work,

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Holy Scripture, the Ground and Pillar of Our Faith. And that's a 900 -page work in three volumes proving that the church fathers believed in Sola Scriptura centuries before the

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Protestant Reformation. And if you want to register for either of those, I don't know if somebody is chopping up a freshly caught bass after going fishing, but I hear a lot of noise in the background.

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If you want to register for either or both of those events, send an email to chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, and put

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Pastors Luncheon and or Bible Conference in the subject line. And we hope that as many of you as possible will register for those two free events which are being held again on Thursday, April 13th for the free

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Pastors Luncheon at Church of the Living Christ in Louisville, Pennsylvania, and Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, April 14th, 15th, and 16th at the

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Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg. Once again, you can register for both events absolutely free by sending an email to chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, and put either or both

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Pastors Luncheon and free Bible Conference depending upon which one you are registering for, and if you're registering for both, put both in the subject line.

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But today, we have my guests Dr. William Webster and David T. King back for part two of a discussion that we began a number of weeks ago.

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In fact, some of you who were listening to Iron Sharpens Iron radio yesterday will note that we aired a rerun of that first interview on the subject that is, that aired yesterday.

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It actually originally aired on January 25th, and it was on the theme,

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Saving Faith, How Does Rome Define It? And so, if you're listening today on March 15th, you're not hearing the same program that you heard yesterday, which was a rerun with the same guests that I have today.

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And we're speaking on the same subject, but it's part two of Saving Faith, How Does Rome Define It?

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And we're going to be addressing some things that we could not address the last time because time would not allow it, and we may be doing some overlap as well.

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But first of all, let me welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron radio, my dear longtime friend Dr. William Webster.

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Hi, Chris. It's great to have you back. Good to be here. Good to be here. It's great to have you back.

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And Reverend David T. King, it's great to have you back as well. Thank you, Chris. It's good to be here this afternoon.

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I'm going to give our email address right away for those of our listeners who have a question about Roman Catholicism.

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The email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. You might be a Roman Catholic, and you are starting to question your long -held, cherished beliefs.

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You might have been raised a Roman Catholic, and you are starting to question the authenticity –

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I got a little tongue -tied there – authenticity of the beliefs, teachings, and practices of Roman Catholicism, but you're not ready yet to publicly identify yourself.

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That's quite understandable. There could be a whole host of reasons. Several years ago, a local evangelical

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Protestant pastor contacted me. I did not know him before he contacted me, but have become very close friends with him since then.

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But he contacted me because he knew about my program, he knew about the debates that I organized, primarily with Dr.

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James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, on Roman Catholicism. And he said,

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I fear I am going to convert to Rome. I am leaning that way, please help.

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And I did, I sent him some books, including Dr. William Webster's The Church of Rome at the

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Bar of History, which had incredible impact on him, and really stopped him in his tracks, and he did a 180, and what really cemented everything is when he saw, he attended a local debate that I arranged between Dr.

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Tony Costa, a Reformed Baptist apologist, and Robert St. Genes, a

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Roman Catholic apologist. We had a local debate on the,

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I believe it was the immaculate conception and perpetual sinlessness of Mary.

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And he walked out of that debate saying, I am never going to consider converting to Rome again in my life,

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I know that for certain. But, so, you may be in a position like that as well, on the other side of the spectrum.

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You may be an evangelical saying, dabbling in Roman Catholicism, or perhaps even

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Eastern Orthodoxy, I feel myself being lured into the possibility of converting, and you don't want to identify yourself,

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I understand that as well. But if you're just asking a general question on Roman Catholic teaching, on what the

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Bible teaches about the gospel, and other things that divide evangelical

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Protestants from Roman Catholics, if they're just general questions, give us your first name, at least, your city and state and country of residence.

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Before I begin asking specific questions about our theme, Bill, if you could start off by giving our listeners, especially for the sake of those who missed you the last time you were on, tell our listeners about Grace Bible Church of Battleground Washington.

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We are a church, it's Baptistic, we're Reformed Baptists.

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We follow the 1689 London Baptist Confession. We are located here in Battleground Washington, which is really a suburb of Vancouver, which in itself is a suburb of Portland, Oregon.

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We're in the state of Washington, but just across the river from Portland, Oregon. I've been here,

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I've been a pastor of this church for about 21 years, going, well, a little past 21, coming up on 22 years.

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Very committed to the Reformation, very committed to the authority of the Word of God, the gospel, and world missions.

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And if anybody wants more details on this fine church, go to gracebiblebattleground .org,

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gracebiblebattleground .org, and you will receive all the information that you need on this church.

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And also, Bill, please tell us about Christian resources. Christian resources is basically an informational website.

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It's also, well, you can order books. I'm a writer, a publisher, and a printer of books,

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Christian books. This ministry was established back in the 90s.

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It's basically oriented to a defense of the Reformation, a proclamation of the true gospel.

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It's full of all kinds of articles that hopefully are informative on typical issues that really matter, historical issues on church history, the development of Roman Catholic tradition on different issues, why the

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Reformation is important and necessary. It's just an informational type of ministry to try to help people understand what the essential issues of the gospel and the

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Christian life are. And you can order the aforementioned three -volume work that I cited in the beginning of the program,

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Holy Scripture, The Ground and Pillar of Our Faith, that is co -authored by my two guests today,

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Dr. William Webster and Pastor David King. Go to christiantruth .com,

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christiantruth .com, and if you're looking for that book, click on Bookstore, and if you keep scrolling, you'll eventually find it.

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In fact, it's the third one down right now, anyway, on the online catalog.

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Now, David T. King, let our listeners know about Christ Church of Katy, Texas, where you serve as assistant pastor.

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Yes, as you mentioned, Chris, I do have the privilege of serving as assistant pastor at Christ Church in Katy.

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Christ Church is a congregation of the Presbyterian Church in America, and of course our doctrinal standards are the

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Westminster Confession, larger and shorter catechisms, and we're a church that seeks to preach the biblical gospel, inviting men and women to trust in Christ and to walk in His ways as His disciples and to mature in the

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Christian faith. It's been quite a privilege, as I said, to minister at this congregation in Katy.

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Sweet people. And if anybody wants more information about Christ Church in Katy, Texas, go to cckpca .org,

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c -c -k -p -c -a dot org. Well, Dr. Webster, well,

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I'll probably be calling you Bill for most of the program. The last we spoke, you said that when we were discussing part one of this very same topic, saving faith, how does

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Rome define it, when I brought up a concept taught by Roman Catholicism, or Roman Catholics, Roman Catholic apologists, those in the hierarchical authority of Rome, teach something called the unanimous consent of the fathers, and when

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I brought that up during part one, you said your phone on your computer was ringing or something, and you just totally went blank, and you completely forgot to address the issue after that technological mishap occurred.

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So, I'm going to start off the program by you addressing that very important issue, because it is a major claim of Roman Catholics.

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In fact, it's not only a claim, it is something that I believe Satan has used to deceive

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Protestants, even theologically reformed ones on occasion, to either return to Rome or to convert to Rome for the first time.

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And so, if you could pick up where I just left off on this concept of the unanimous consent of the fathers.

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Now, that term, unanimous consent of the fathers, is derived from the

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Council of Trent. It's a concept, though, that goes way back in history.

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But the actual term, unanimous consent of the fathers, is a response of the

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Council of Trent to the Reformation, and the Reformation teaching derived from the ultimate and final authority of the

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Word of God, the written scriptures. We know that the

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Reformation was known for two basic things. One is its teaching on authority, that the ultimate authority for the

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Church and for individual believers is not the Church. The ultimate authority is

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Christ, who mediates that authority through His Word. So the term sola scriptura is what developed from that commitment that the revelation given to us by God is the written

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Word of God, and that all teachings are to be subject to the examination of the judgment, the ultimate authority of the scriptures.

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It's an answer to the Reformation gospel and their teaching about authority, the reformers.

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And the claim is, as Trent puts it, there are two issues.

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One is the doctrinal teaching of the

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Church historically, and then the interpretation of scripture historically.

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And what they're trying to present to men is the assertion, the claim, that the

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Roman Catholic Church in the day of the Reformation, in coming against the teaching of the reformers, stands in the continuity historically of the patristic age.

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That's the term fathers is what they mean. Going back all the way through the patristic age to the authority of the

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Word of God, but also tradition. So there are two basic concepts within tridentine

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Roman Catholicism of authority. The Church has ultimate authority, but then there is also the authority of the

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Word of God. It's the Word of God written and unwritten. And what

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Rome is claiming is that these concepts have a continuity that they are connected to, going all the way back to the patristic age and beyond.

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And that it is unlawful, it says, to interpret scripture in any way contrary to the unanimous consent of the fathers.

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So what they're claiming is that the teaching of the reformers is novel, it goes against the unanimous teaching of the

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Church throughout the ages, that Roman Catholicism stands as an institution that is in full compliance with that claim.

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The interesting thing is if you take the claim seriously, they're saying that our teaching can be judged by this law.

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And what I find is as a former Roman Catholic, raised in Roman Catholicism, and looking at the claims of Rome, and I look at this historically,

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John Henry Newman said, if you are conversant with Church history, you will cease to be

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Protestant. And I have found it is exactly the opposite.

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If you are conversant with Church history, you will cease to be Roman Catholic.

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Because Roman Catholicism is contradictory to claim unanimous consent of the fathers for its distinctive teachings.

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It's not that everything Rome teaches is wrong, but they teach about the Trinity, for example, is

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Orthodox. It's the other accretions, the other teachings that they add to what they call the rule of faith.

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There, you have a huge departure from the teaching of tradition, and from the teaching of Scripture.

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The unanimous consent principle is violated in numerous ways, with numerous doctrines.

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We have Roman, you know, how does Rome define it? Saving faith. That is more than just dealing with the issue of justification, and the gospel.

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What enters into here is a whole plethora of doctrines, related to history, related to the papacy, related to Mary, related to the canon of Scripture, related to the sacraments, the unique teaching about the

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Church being the only true Church, and the only means of salvation.

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All of these basic teachings contradict Scripture, and they contradict tradition.

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You will not find a unanimous consent of the fathers for these teachings.

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And I believe this is something of immense importance, because what you see in the

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Church, you want to see a claim that was asserted by Trent in opposition to the

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Reformers. It was then reaffirmed by Vatican I. So they're saying that we can claim unanimous consent through history for everything we teach.

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Then you have, after Vatican I, with John Henry Newman, this theory of the development of doctrine, which had to be proposed because of the breakdown between the claims of Rome and the actual facts of history.

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Precisely. And now the Roman Catholic Church today has moved beyond the development of doctrine to the teaching of living tradition, which says you don't have to have verification for any of these teachings in Scripture or in tradition.

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You do not need either. The Roman Catholic Church itself is its own authority.

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It speaks with authority at any given time in history, and it is infallible in whatever it teaches, and it calls upon men to put blind faith in an institution.

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And that, to me, is the ultimate end that is utterly disastrous to the spiritual welfare of men and women.

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We're told in Scripture, Colossians chapter 2, see to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, through the traditions of men, which are contrary to the doctrine of Christ.

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And that is exactly what I believe Roman Catholicism has done. It is now promoting teachings and has for centuries that are, in effect, the traditions of men that have no grounding in either the actual tradition of the

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Church and unanimous consent or in the authority of the Word of God.

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And this is, again, just to clarify, this is a lie that is being regurgitated and perpetuated by not only the hierarchy of Rome but Roman Catholic apologists who know better.

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This is not something that is difficult when doing a research of history to determine its authenticity and its truthfulness and its historic accuracy.

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It's very easy to find out, especially now that we've got your three -volume work,

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Holy Scripture of the Ground and Pillar of our Faith, and also the Church of Rome with the Bar of History in print.

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It's very easy to counteract this lie and to point out historically that it's that very thing.

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It is a lie. Am I overreaching here by just calling it a bold -faced lie or bold -faced lies, plural?

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I mean, it's not true. It's obvious it's not true.

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You can look at basic facts of history, and it's admitted by Roman Catholic apologists.

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You take just the Assumption of Mary, just one example. The Assumption of Mary, that teaching,

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Carl Keating, in his book Catholicism and Fundamentalism, I don't know, 30 years ago.

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Carl Keating made the assertion, We do not accept the teaching of the

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Assumption of Mary because it can be found in Scripture, because it isn't there. He says that.

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Or tradition, because it isn't there either. We accept this teaching because it is the infallible declaration of the

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Church in 1950. So, there goes unanimous consent.

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That's the contradiction. I mean, the unanimous consent of the

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Fathers on the Assumption of Mary is total silence.

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There's nothing there. So you have no unanimous consent, and it gets worse, because the actual origin of the teaching is

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Gnostic heresy. That Gnostic heresy, it comes from a group of writings that are

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Gnostic, called the transitus literature. The transitus literature promotes the elevation of Mary in theology, in particular, her

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Assumption. That teaching of the Assumption was condemned, those writings of the

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Gnostics, the transitus literature, where this originated, was condemned by two bishops of Rome in the late 5th and early 6th centuries, by Galatius and Hermestus.

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That literature was condemned by name. It was condemned along with such heretics as Arius, Apollinaris, Pelagius, and others.

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Thoroughly condemned. And it was only through a freak issue of history that the teaching began to slowly find its emergence in the late church, beginning about 590, through one church father, who bought into the transitus literature unwittingly, thinking that it was an ancient writing of a church father.

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And over time, it morphed, until by 1950, the bishop of Rome, Pius XII, decreed it to be a dogma of the church, necessary to be believed for salvation.

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Well, that is not scriptural, it is not tradition, it is just a church declaring in its own authority a human teaching that originated with heresy.

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And David, you have some citations that you wanted to provide for our listeners that reflect precisely on this deception of Rome.

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Yes. In fact, David, I just realized that we are going to our first break right now, so when we come back, you can do that.

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And let me remind our guests, please mute yourselves during the station break, you will hear me return to the program when the break is over.

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If anybody wants to join us with a question of your own, once again, our email address is chrisarnsen, at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N, gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

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We'll be right back, don't go away. James White of Alfenbega Ministries here.

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.com, www .royaldiadem .com. Always mention Chris Arnes and the Vining Sharpens Iron Radio. David King, I cut you short before the commercial break.

40:57

You were just about to provide some citations of Roman Catholic scholars about this whole concept of the unanimous consent of the fathers that may actually favor the

41:10

Protestant objection to that concept. Right, Chris. And you take, for example, the

41:18

Roman scholar Joseph Fitzmyer in his book Scripture, the

41:23

Soul of Theology, he points out that there was no uniform or monolithic patristic interpretation either in the

41:31

Greek Church of the East, Alexandrian or Antiochian, or in the Latin Church of the West.

41:37

And he just then plainly admits no one can ever tell us where such a unanimous consent of the fathers is to be found.

41:46

In other words, when you seek to apply it, it just can't be found.

41:52

And then Bill also referred to Cardinal Conger, and in Conger's book titled

42:00

Tradition and Traditions, he points out the same thing that Joseph Fitzmyer points out.

42:09

And here at this time talking not so much about the assumption of Mary, but even talking about the famous passage of Matthew chapter 16, which

42:20

Roman apologists want to cite as if this makes

42:27

Peter the supreme leader in the Church. They plainly admit,

42:35

Conger does, that there is no unanimous consent in the fathers concerning this teaching on Matthew chapter 16.

42:43

He said, except that Rome, that passage was not applied by the fathers to papal primacy.

42:51

And he goes on to say that they worked out in exegesis at the level of their own ecclesiological thought.

42:58

And it's amazing. And then he goes on to admit, Conger does, it is the

43:04

Church, he says, not the fathers, but the consensus of the Church in submission to its

43:10

Savior, which is the sufficient rule of our Christianity. I don't know where you could have a plainer statement of sola ecclesia, when he says it's the

43:22

Church alone that is the sufficient rule of our Christianity. Conger also points out, he says, the plain material fact, he says, of agreement or disagreement, however extensive, he says it does not allow us to speak of a consensus patrum, that is, the consent of the fathers at the properly dogmatic level for the authors studied in theology are only fathers in the theological sense if they have in some way begotten the

43:55

Church which follows them. And he says the theological weight of this patristic consent, like Fitzmurray says, it's subject to so many conditions that it cannot be easily assessed.

44:11

It certainly can't be easily assessed. It's of no practical use. And Bill also mentioned that the assumption, the dogma concerning the assumption of Mary came from a

44:25

Gnostic document. I've always found it interesting, myself, that when you read in the writings of someone like G .W

44:36

.H. Lampe who gave us the patristic Greek lexicon, a man who was well informed, he writes and he tells us that according to Irenaeus, the

44:50

Valentinians, that is, the Gnostic group, claimed that the truth in Scripture cannot be discovered by those who are ignorant of tradition.

45:00

And then he goes on to say that it's in Gnosticism that we encounter for the first time this idea of unwritten tradition as an authority for doctrine.

45:12

And he says unlike Orthodox tradition, it's neither the raw material, as it were, of what is to become

45:18

Scripture nor the explication of what is contained in Scripture. And he says it is wholly independent of Scripture and even superior to it, since only in the light of tradition can

45:33

Scripture be understood. And he says that comes from a

45:39

Gnostic source. And so it's in Gnosticism that Lampe reminds us that we encounter unwritten tradition for the first time in the early history of the

45:53

Church. We have a listener who has a question.

46:00

His name is Christopher from Western Suffolk County, Long Island, New York. And he says, just as we who are

46:10

Protestants and Reformed Christians hate it when our theological opponents cite liberal and leftist and apostate

46:20

Protestants to back up their claims against Protestantism, how do you respond to Roman Catholics who will reply to the evidence that you've just provided by saying, oh, those are just left -wing

46:36

Catholic apologists and they should not even enter into the discussion? Yeah, I've heard,

46:42

I believe, Raymond Brown even referred to that way, who's a Catholic theologian,

46:48

I believe, now deceased. But anyway, if you could, let's start with David since he's provided the citations, and then we'll go to Bill on that.

46:57

Yes, both Brown and Fitzmeyer have commented on this.

47:03

I wouldn't just say that they're liberals. I would say that they're honest

47:09

Roman Catholic exegetes. But at the same time, there's nothing liberal about Conger.

47:18

Conger, I mean, this man's a cardinal in the church. So if a

47:25

Roman apologist wants to disagree, that's fine. It's his private opinion compared to a cardinal in the

47:34

Roman communion. And, of course, their own pope, who's in the chair of Peter, according to them, the seat of Peter, is the most left -wing pope that they've ever had in the history of their religion.

47:49

That's true. And if you raise that, Roman apologists today do not like to be reminded of how liberal their present pope is.

47:59

They would rather not discuss that. How convenient. Health of church led, you would say.

48:08

Bill, do you have anything to add? Well, if you look at what these men are saying,

48:15

Conger is citing data. He's a patristic scholar.

48:23

He's conservative. He's a defender of the Roman Catholic Church. He's not a liberal.

48:30

He's dealing with the facts of history. You go back again to what

48:37

Trent said, the unanimous consent of the fathers in interpreting Scripture. It is unlawful to interpret

48:45

Scripture in any way contrary to the unanimous consent of the fathers.

48:50

Well, all you have to do is look at this all -important passage of the

48:55

Rock of Peter, the Rock of Matthew 16, what that means. How did the fathers interpret, exegete, the meaning of that passage?

49:07

And you can begin with Origen and Tertullian and Cyprian and Athanasius and come on up the line to Chrysostom and Basil the

49:17

Great and Augustine and Jerome and onward. And what you find in the patristic age is a unanimous consent.

49:27

It does exist of the interpretation of the Rock of Matthew 16. The problem is it's utterly opposed to the present -day teaching of the

49:38

Roman Catholic Church, which really was dogmatized by Vatican I in 1870.

49:47

And what the fathers unanimously taught was that the

49:52

Rock is not the person of Peter, with the implication then that there are successors in the bishops of Rome exclusively who take upon the role of Peter, that the church is built upon Christ as the foundation, and that the

50:15

Rock is either Peter's confession of Christ, you are the

50:20

Christ, the son of the living God, or it is Christ himself because Paul says specifically in 1

50:28

Corinthians 10, the Rock is Christ. Ephesians 2 talks about the church being built upon the prophets and the apostles, that is, the word of the living

50:41

God, Old and New Testaments. Christ is the cornerstone. He is the rock and foundation.

50:50

There is no other. It's certainly not going to be built on a man who had to be rebuked by the apostle

50:56

Peter for distorting the gospel. By the apostle Paul, yes. So how can he be the foundation to the church?

51:07

He's a fallible human being. That foundation is Christ, and Augustine, I'll give you one example.

51:14

Augustine says, in exegeting this passage, Christ did not build his church on a man, but on Peter's confession.

51:27

So he completely rejects that whole perspective of present -day

51:35

Roman Catholic ecclesiology that is grounded in that exegesis of the

51:42

Rock in Matthew 16 that runs counter to the unanimous consent of the fathers.

51:50

That is what a man like Conger is dealing with. In fact, we have to go to our midway break,

51:56

Bill. You can pick up where you left off when we return to the program. By the way, I want to quickly mention you can get the book that Bill wrote on this very issue,

52:05

The Matthew 16 Controversy, Peter and the Rock, at christiantruth .com,

52:11

christiantruth .com. This is the longer break than normal, folks, so please be patient. I want to remind my guests to also mute themselves.

52:19

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Before I return to my two guests, Dr. William Webster and David T. King, on Saving Faith, How Does Rome Define It?

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Part 2, I just have some important announcements to make. If you love this show, folks, and you do not want it to disappear, go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

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and put luncheon and or conference in the subject line. Last but not least, if you are not a member of a

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01:13:29

King on the theme, Saving Faith, How Does Rome Define It? This is part two of a discussion that we began a number of weeks ago and are continuing today.

01:13:40

And before the midway break, Dr. Webster, I believe I had to cut you short while you were answering questions about,

01:13:49

I think we were still on the thread or the theme of the so -called unanimous consent of the fathers.

01:13:55

Do you remember where you left off there? Yeah, we were dealing with a particular application of that principle.

01:14:06

Trent talks about the interpretation of Scripture, how it is unlawful to interpret

01:14:13

Scripture that's contrary to the unanimous consent of the fathers in their interpretation of Scripture.

01:14:22

And the point I was making is that there is indeed a unanimous consent of the rock of Matthew 16, which is the foundational passage for the entirety of Roman Catholicism and its authority.

01:14:38

It's the rock of Matthew 16 and what that means. And none of the church fathers teach what

01:14:48

Vatican I taught about the rock of Matthew 16 being the person of Peter, who then has successors exclusively in the bishops of Rome who follow in his train as those who are given exclusive authority over the church universal, that they are the center of unity for the church.

01:15:13

The fact of the matter is, historically, there has never been a universal ruler of the entire church.

01:15:21

The interpretation of Matthew 16, I was giving an example from Augustine, who said

01:15:28

Christ did not build his church on a man, but on Peter's confession.

01:15:35

And that is his consistent view of the rock of Matthew 16 and all the other church fathers follow in his example.

01:15:48

You have the whole issue of Luke 22, 32, which is papal infallibility.

01:15:56

This was used by Vatican I as justification for its teaching, which it says has been held by the church from the very beginning that the bishops of Rome, when speaking ex cathedra in their official capacity as teachers of the church and in their official capacity as rulers of the church, on any subject related to doctrine or discipline or practice are infallible in what they decree.

01:16:31

And they use Luke 22 as sort of the undergirding support foundation scripturally in their interpretation that Christ said to Peter, I pray for you that your faith will not fail.

01:16:49

No church father, not one, in the patristic age ever taught that that particular passage meant that the bishops of Rome are infallible when they speak ex cathedra.

01:17:04

They did not believe Peter was infallible. They did not believe that is what the passage meant.

01:17:12

Brian Tierney, who is a world -renowned Roman Catholic medieval scholar,

01:17:17

I don't think he's living still, he makes a statement, the scriptural text most commonly cited in favor of papal infallibility is

01:17:27

Luke 22, 32. There is no lack of patristic commentary on the text.

01:17:32

None of the fathers interpreted it as meaning that Peter's successors were infallible.

01:17:40

No convincing argument has ever been put forward explaining why they should not have stated that the text implied a doctrine of papal infallibility if that is what they understood it to mean.

01:17:56

So what you have then is you have a church who has promulgated a law that now turns around and contradicts the very law it has promulgated in opposition to the reformers.

01:18:11

And it's the reformers who, in fact, are more true to the patristic understanding of the church, the patristic understanding of scripture and the gospel than the

01:18:26

Roman Catholic Church and the unanimous consent of the fathers. Calvin said if this argument is going to be based on the consent of the fathers, he said, we will easily win the argument.

01:18:40

But what the Roman Catholic Church has done, it has, if you think about unanimous consent,

01:18:48

Vincent of Lerens in the 5th century promulgated this concept of unanimous consent where he asked the question in one of his treatises, how do

01:19:00

I know what is truly apostolic? What is true tradition in the church?

01:19:06

Because there are so many conflicting opinions. And he basically set forth what he considers a principle that is foundational.

01:19:18

He said it's that which is believed everywhere, always, and by all.

01:19:25

That's unanimous consent. What was believed everywhere, always, and by all in the early church is what is called the rule of faith.

01:19:35

The rule of faith is simply the creed. Every doctrine of the creed is rooted in the written scriptures.

01:19:44

There's nothing of oral tradition there. That is what was universally believed and embraced.

01:19:54

Irenaeus defines it. Origen defines it. Tertullian defines it.

01:19:59

This was the binding teaching of the church universal. What Rome has done is it's added to what was never believed in the early church.

01:20:10

And it now says these doctrines of the papacy and Mary and purgatory and the canon of scripture and its soteriological teachings on the sacraments are all necessary for salvation in contradiction to scripture and to the tradition of the early church.

01:20:34

We have a listener who is addressing his question to David in particular, but I'll allow also

01:20:45

Bill to have a follow -up answer if he desires to. This anonymous listener says,

01:20:53

Brother David, I know that you are a Presbyterian, and I love Presbyterians, and many of my friends are

01:21:00

Presbyterians, and I love visiting conferences and churches where Presbyterians are speaking.

01:21:07

But I've always been puzzled why many of the most conservative Presbyterians who are confessional and theologically orthodox will insist that the church of Rome is a true representation of Christ's church on earth in addition to the

01:21:24

Protestant churches. Do you believe this, and if not, how do you respond to that? That's a very good question.

01:21:36

I suppose I would be in disagreement with some of my brethren regarding the church of Rome.

01:21:44

I know that it has historically been the tendency of many Presbyterians to acknowledge the sacraments of the church of Rome, particularly baptism, to be valid.

01:21:58

But when one considers that ever since Trent, the

01:22:04

Council of Trent, which was the Roman response to the Protestant reformers, that the

01:22:11

Roman church has even fallen into more egregious errors since that time, and even more so than Calvin's day, and has gone further and further into doctrinal aberration.

01:22:32

So I would simply say no, I don't agree. And I know that the question has really come up in the present day as to how we're to regard

01:22:46

Rome. But I no longer refer to Rome. It's not a church.

01:22:54

In my personal opinion, it's not a legitimate church.

01:23:00

She has compromised the gospel in so many ways and has departed from the biblical gospel.

01:23:10

I just don't share that sympathy. And I can understand the dear brother's question with respect to that.

01:23:20

I would be on the opposite side of that which he has experienced.

01:23:27

In fact, I want to plug a book that you could get on Amazon by the great

01:23:33

J .H. Thornwell. It has been retitled in its modern form,

01:23:40

Sacramental Sorcery, the Invalidity of Roman Catholic Baptism. And you could get that at Amazon .com,

01:23:49

J .H. Thornwell. And I found that an absolutely fascinating book.

01:23:55

Thornwell was a Presbyterian, by the way, folks. He was a Southern Presbyterian. Yes, yes, but I'm assuming you were in agreement with Thornwell.

01:24:03

Yes, yes. And Bill, do you have any follow -up on that? Other than convert to Baptist?

01:24:15

Just kidding, Dave. I kid David. Yeah, he's Presbyterian in theology, but he preaches like a

01:24:23

Baptist. Anyway, I would say the main issue here is the gospel.

01:24:34

Because the gospel is the defining issue. It's the foundation for everything. It's the power of God to salvation.

01:24:42

It is the authoritative message given to the church to proclaim to the world. If you pervert that message,

01:24:50

Galatians 1 says you are under the curse of God. Amen. Okay? So if I'm promoting a false gospel, and I'm promoting a message that deceives men for all eternity,

01:25:06

I have forfeited any right to call myself a church of Jesus Christ.

01:25:15

I am no, that is not a true church. The true church is built upon the apostles and the prophets.

01:25:21

That is the word of the living God with Christ Jesus as the cornerstone. We cannot pervert that message.

01:25:29

It is the unifying factor that draws all true believers together.

01:25:37

It's the foundation for the church at large, and it is the message that is to be proclaimed throughout the world.

01:25:44

The Roman Catholic Church has officially condemned at the Council of Trent in Canon 10 on justification, the imputed righteousness of Christ for justification.

01:25:57

That's a very hard part of the heart of the gospel. It has officially condemned it.

01:26:06

That eliminates, in my mind at least, because they're under the curse of God, and they need to repent of being able to claim themselves to be the true church of Christ.

01:26:19

It all comes back to the truth of the gospel. Amen. Amen. And by the way,

01:26:25

I want to let Christopher from Western Suffolk County, Long Island, and also this anonymous listener,

01:26:33

I believe I failed to mention, that they have both won a free copy of a book by William Webster, Salvation, the

01:26:42

Bible, and Roman Catholicism, compliments of Banner of Truth, and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

01:26:52

who is a sponsor of this program and will be shipping those books out to you.

01:26:57

Anonymous listener, if you are also a first -time questioner, on top of this free book you will also receive a new

01:27:04

American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB. Can you just briefly describe this book for our listeners,

01:27:10

Bill? When I first began to investigate many years ago, the official teachings of the

01:27:23

Roman Catholic Church, I was sort of taken back by the lack of available information.

01:27:30

So I began to research and to read the official documents of what

01:27:37

I had been raised in, related to catechisms, papal decrees, the

01:27:44

Code of Canon Law, the councils, Vatican I, Vatican II, trying to get my arms around the totality of what

01:27:55

Rome officially teaches. It became very apparent in my study that there were significant issues with the teaching of Roman Catholicism on the gospel and salvation, and that which is taught in the

01:28:10

Word of God. So it was my desire to clarify the issues because it was a lot of confusion with people that I would talk to about what

01:28:22

Rome really officially taught. So this is basically, it's a presentation of the official teaching of Roman Catholicism.

01:28:33

What is salvation? From the perspective of the Roman Catholic Church, what are the major doctrines?

01:28:40

And then we're looking at scripture. How does that compare to what the Word of God teaches?

01:28:47

And what is salvation? And I found it's just a major conflict between the two.

01:28:54

That's why I could never go back into the Roman Catholic Church, both on biblical grounds and historical grounds, but most importantly, the biblical issue of the gospel.

01:29:08

So this is, as it's titled, salvation's the main theme, the gospel, salvation, the

01:29:18

Bible, because that is your ultimate source of authority. And Roman Catholicism, how does

01:29:25

Rome compare in its teaching with what the Word of God teaches on salvation?

01:29:31

Great. And we have a question from B .B.

01:29:37

in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. And again, this is being highlighted for David King, but of course

01:29:48

Bill can respond as well. B .B. asks, how do you respond to your fellow

01:29:54

Presbyterians and Paedo -Baptists who say that the Reformers themselves were never re -baptized after receiving

01:30:03

Roman Catholic baptism? Well, they certainly received baptism, but even

01:30:12

Calvin pointed out that there were many churches under the umbrella of Rome who still held fast to the gospel in his day.

01:30:21

And so they didn't just want to – it was not the intent of the Reformers, least of all

01:30:27

Calvin, to unchurch those who had been baptized within the

01:30:33

Roman communion and many churches that still held firmly to the biblical gospel.

01:30:42

It's interesting to me that even when you find the great defender of the

01:30:50

Council of Trent, which was Cardinal Bellarmine, when he was discussing in his work on justification, he set forth the

01:31:00

Roman doctrine. But then it's interesting that John Owen is citing

01:31:07

Bellarmine at this point, and he cites Bellarmine as this on justification, where Bellarmine writes and says,

01:31:16

Christ is said to be our righteousness because he has made satisfaction for us to the

01:31:21

Father, and doth so give and communicate that satisfaction unto us when he justifieth us that it may be said to be our satisfaction and righteousness.

01:31:35

And then Bellarmine goes on to say, And in this sense it would not be absurd if anyone should say that the righteousness of Christ and his merits are imputed unto us as if we ourselves had satisfied

01:31:57

God. And then Owen comments on that statement of the Cardinal, he says, In this sense we say that Christ is the

01:32:05

Lord our righteousness, nor is there anything of importance in the whole doctrine of justification that we own, which is not here granted by the

01:32:16

Cardinal. In other words, Owen's pointing out the inconsistency on the part of Bellarmine when it comes to the whole issue of justification.

01:32:28

So again, in response to the listener, there were still churches in Calvin's day.

01:32:34

It was not clear that all of these churches under the umbrella of Rome had at that time departed from the biblical gospel.

01:32:45

Yeah, this was before Trent, because Trent was a response to the Reformation.

01:32:51

So therefore, Trent would later, after the Reformers were adults and had already been baptized as children or infants many years prior,

01:33:02

Rome did not dogmatize many of their absolutely most heretical and even blasphemous dogmas that were required to be believed until after the

01:33:15

Reformation. Right? Right. I would recommend that this listener, if you can acquire it,

01:33:25

Calvin responded to another Roman bishop,

01:33:32

Sadele, and if you can get a hold of the little booklet, A Reformation Debate, where Calvin is responding to Sadele, I think it would be very helpful for that person to read that little book.

01:33:50

And Bill, do you have any follow -up? No, I think David handled that quite well.

01:33:57

Okay, we have another anonymous—oh, by the way, B .B., you have also won a free copy of William Webster's book,

01:34:03

Salvation, the Bible, and Roman Catholicism. Thank you, Banner of Truth, for providing those free copies, and also thank you,

01:34:11

CVBBS .com, for shipping them out to our winners. We have an anonymous listener who sets his or her target on me.

01:34:22

The anonymous listener says, Although I find Chris Arnzen's guest today,

01:34:30

Mr. Webster and King, to be very respectful and gracious and polite,

01:34:35

Mr. Arnzen seems to use a lot of vitriol and nastiness in the way he describes

01:34:40

Roman Catholicism and Roman Catholics, using words such as satanic.

01:34:46

Is this really called for when we are trying to mend wounds and rebuild bridges and heal relationships between Protestants and Roman Catholics?

01:35:00

Well, first of all, I don't think that I am out of line because I'm not speaking about individuals, first of all.

01:35:09

I know Roman Catholics that I believe are superior people to me.

01:35:15

As far as they are more gracious, more humble, more merciful.

01:35:24

I'm not talking about every Roman Catholic. I'm just saying I know specific individuals that are better husbands than I ever was, and better children to their parents than I ever was, better siblings to their siblings than I ever was, better friends to their friends, better citizens.

01:35:41

I could go on and on, but that is not the issue. It's the gospel, and I think that we are doing people that we love and care about a disservice when we candy coat the terminology we use about our differences and give anyone a false impression that their differences are of secondary and tertiary importance and have no salvific impact on them.

01:36:11

So I make no apology for using words like satanic, especially when

01:36:18

I'm talking about the false dogma of Rome, but perhaps my guests agree with you and not me.

01:36:25

Let's start with Bill this time. Bill? I mean, do you think I'm out of line the way

01:36:30

I've been speaking? I meant to speak to you after the show, Chris.

01:36:35

No, I don't think you're out of line.

01:36:41

If you look at the example of the Apostle Paul, even Jesus, when he's dealing with someone like Herod, or the

01:36:49

Apostle Paul when he's dealing with the Judaizers, you know, we want to be respectful.

01:36:58

I'm not saying don't be respectful. You always want to be respectful. You want to be gracious. I don't think there's any place in being a follower of Christ, being unloving and ungracious and prideful and arrogant.

01:37:14

You are to have a humble, submissive spirit of servant heart.

01:37:20

You're to love men, but you are also never to compromise truth. And the gospel has to do with the eternal destinies of men and women.

01:37:30

And so Paul's dealing with the Judaizers in Galatians 1. Paul is not seeking to build bridges.

01:37:39

He's not seeking to heal a relationship. He is not trying to heal wounds.

01:37:49

He is proclaiming truth. I mean, he'd love it if they would repent and come to a fullness of the gospel.

01:37:58

But he says you're under the curse of God. Roman Catholicism, and we're talking objectively, look at its doctrine.

01:38:08

The very gospel of the Judaizers is the gospel of Rome. Priests, high priests, ceremonial feast days, and ongoing sacrifice, altars.

01:38:22

It's all the same. It's different terminology. But the principle of what they're teaching is exactly the same.

01:38:33

Christ is not sufficient. We're adding to who he is and what he's done, the works of man.

01:38:43

And so when Paul says you are under the curse of God, and he warns those believers, do not have anything to do with these people or their teaching or you will likewise be under the curse of God.

01:39:02

We have to stand very clearly for the truth of the gospel and just as clearly to correct that which is contrary to it out of love for people and out of a sense for the glory of God and for his will.

01:39:21

So no, I don't think that you're out of line. You're not disrespectful or unloving, but you are committed to the word of God and its truth.

01:39:34

All right, hurry it up, Bill. David, do you have anything to add, especially if it's a glowing compliment of me?

01:39:46

Well, I'm just simply going to say that I think that Bill has expressed it well.

01:39:55

I don't know how anyone can read the Apostle Paul's opening words to the

01:40:03

Galatians and come away thinking, how ironic of Paul in his opening comment.

01:40:13

I mean, when he's talking about these people who have departed from the gospel and when he's talking about the

01:40:21

Judaizers, he says, let them be accursed. I just ask, is that ironic word expressions on the part of the

01:40:33

Apostle Paul? I think not. There has to be a time when you call falsehood for what it really is.

01:40:42

And he says, you're preaching another gospel, which is not a gospel.

01:40:49

It is not good news. And so I think we can leave it there.

01:40:57

I have no desire, and I know that my dear brothers here have no desire to be offensive to those who are members of the

01:41:08

Roman communion. But we have such a love and a zeal for the gospel that we can scarcely allow any departure from what is so clearly set forth in Holy Scripture.

01:41:27

I was listening to a Roman apologist the other day who was saying that the word of God is never called

01:41:35

Scripture in Scripture. And I'm sitting there and I'm just cringing at that sort of comment, which is trying to drive a wedge between the word of God and Holy Scripture.

01:41:50

And there are members of the communion of Rome who would never go so far as to make such statements as that.

01:41:59

It just seems to undermine Holy Scripture and for what it is as the

01:42:05

God -breathed word. So in one sense, we do not like to be offensive for the sake of offense.

01:42:18

But we just desire to be true to the biblical gospel as it has come to us in Holy Scripture.

01:42:27

Thank you. And we are going to our final break. It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks. If you have a question, send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

01:42:35

And by the way, Anonymous, even though you publicly insulted me, you have also won a free copy of Salvation, the

01:42:43

Bible in Roman Catholicism by William Webster. So don't go away. We're going to be right back.

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01:54:47

Welcome back. I would like to read a quote by the late R .C. Sproul that really reflects,

01:54:55

I think beautifully, my attitude about evangelizing my Roman Catholic family, friends and loved ones and acquaintances and people who

01:55:05

I meet who are strangers. And I think that it couldn't be said better.

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R .C. Sproul said, Christians have nothing to be smug about. We are not righteous people trying to correct the unrighteous.

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The chief difference between the believer and the unbeliever is forgiveness. And so that's where I'm coming from, folks.

01:55:38

If you could, Bill Webster, I want to give you a minute and a half or so to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners and then we'll have

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David King do the same afterward. I would just really urge listeners to give heed to the biblical gospel.

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To go to the Word of God, read it for yourselves, understand it, ask the

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Lord for understanding. To follow the Church of Rome is to follow an institution that stands, sadly, very opposed to the biblical and authoritative

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Word of God and that message that is at the very heart of it, which is salvation.

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What does it mean to know God? There is nothing more important on the face of the earth than that a man or a woman understand what it means to be saved.

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And this gospel message that God has given to be proclaimed to the ends of the earth, of salvation in His Son, that that message can be distorted.

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And sadly, as we've seen with the claims of Roman Catholicism, they make historical claims that are false.

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To men and women who generally speaking are ignorant of church history, those claims tend to have an appeal and they draw men in to false teaching with respect to the gospel and the

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Word of God. You need to be objective and we need to be just absolutely focused on what the

01:57:33

Word of God teaches. And David, could you pick up? Well, we're kind of running out of time.

01:57:39

Go ahead. I would simply add the reason why

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Bill and I are so aggressive when it comes to holding to the principle of sola scriptura is for the very reason which he just stated.

01:57:53

It is the biblical gospel that is at stake. And I would just urge everyone that the gospel is all about the person and work of the

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Lord Jesus Christ. We're to turn away from our sins with godly repentance and we are to embrace by faith the

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Lord Jesus Christ. And there is an ongoing relationship of obedience to him that must be maintained by every sincere believer in Christ.

01:58:28

And so the gospel is paramount. Amen. And I want to make sure our listeners have both of your websites.

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First of all, the Grace Bible Church of Battleground, Washington, where my guest

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Dr. William Webster is pastor. More information can be found at gracebiblebattleground .org,

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gracebiblebattleground .org. Also Bill Webster's book ministry, Christian Resources, can be found at christiantruth .com,

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christiantruth .com. And finally, the church where my guest Reverend David T.

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King is an associate pastor, Christ Church of Katy, Texas. More information can be found at cckpca .org,

01:59:14

cckpca .org. I want to thank both of you for doing an absolute superb job again, and I want you to both come back.

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I think that this deserves a part three if you are up for it, and I'll schedule that,

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God willing, after we get off the air. I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions, even the one that insulted me.

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And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater