March 15, 2023 Show with Dr. William Webster AND David T. King on “Saving Faith: How Does Rome Define It?” (Part 2)

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson,

19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports

legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning

issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener,

with your own questions.

And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the

planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 15th day

of March, 2023.

And I am really getting pumped up because my two Iron Sharpens

Iron Radio events are coming up very soon next month.

I am speaking of the next free Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastors' luncheon, which will be

held at Church of the Living Christ in Louisville, Pennsylvania, and also a

three -free -day Bible conference subsequent to that.

The free pastors' luncheon will be held on Thursday, April 13th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at

Church of the Living Christ in Louisville.

And then the three -day free Bible conference will be held at Grace Bible Fellowship Church in

Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

All are free.

There are differences.

The free pastors' luncheon is only open to men in ministry leadership.

And the other thing that is unique about the pastors' luncheon is that not

only do you get to register for free and hear two messages

of encouragement and edification that will challenge also men in

the ministry for free, and not only will you be able to feast physically for free,

but you will also leave that building with a heavy sack of free, brand -new books

personally selected by me, donated by Christian publishers

all over the United States and the United Kingdom.

And also, the three -day Bible conference, the difference between that

and the first event is that this is not only open to men, it's open to

everyone, men, women, and children.

And the theme of the three -day Bible conference is The Gospel, Removed by Rome,

Rescued by the Reformers, and Rejected by Modern Evangelicals.

And the two speakers at both of these events are my guests today.

Dr. William Webster, pastor of Grace Bible Church of Battleground, Washington.

He's an author and founder of Christian Resources, and also Reverend David T.

King, assistant pastor at Christ Church of Katy, Texas, which is a congregation in the Presbyterian

Church in America denomination.

And he is also co -author with Dr. William Webster of the three -volume work, Holy Scripture, the Ground and

Pillar of Our Faith.

And that's a 900 -page work in three volumes proving

that the church fathers believed in Sola Scriptura centuries before the Protestant Reformation.

And if you want to register for either of those, I don't know if somebody is chopping up

a freshly caught bass after going fishing, but I hear a lot of noise in the background.

If you want to register for either or both of those events, send an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put Pastors Luncheon and or Bible

Conference in the subject line.

And we hope that as many of you as possible will register for those two free events which

are being held again on Thursday, April 13th for the free Pastors

Luncheon at Church of the Living Christ in Louisville, Pennsylvania, and Friday, Saturday, and Sunday,

April 14th, 15th, and 16th at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in

Harrisburg.

Once again, you can register for both events absolutely free by sending an email to chrisarnson at gmail

.com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put either or both Pastors Luncheon

and free Bible Conference depending upon which one you are registering for, and if you're registering for

both, put both in the subject line.

But today, we have my guests Dr. William Webster and David T. King back

for part two of a discussion that we began a number of weeks ago.

In fact, some of you who were listening to Iron Sharpens Iron radio

yesterday will note that we aired a rerun of that

first interview on this subject, that is, that aired yesterday.

It actually originally aired on January 25th, and it was on the theme,

Saving Faith, How Does Rome Define It?

And so if you're listening today on March 15th, you're not hearing the same

program that you heard yesterday, which was a rerun with the same guests that I have today.

And we're speaking on the same subject, but it's part two of Saving Faith, How Does Rome Define It?

And we're going to be addressing some things that we could not address the last

time because time would not allow it, and we may be doing some overlap as well.

But first of all, let me welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron radio my dear longtime friend Dr. William Webster.

Hi, Chris.

It's great to have you back.

Good to be here.

And Reverend David T. King, it's great to have you back as well.

Thank you, Chris.

It's good to be here this afternoon.

I'm going to give our email address right away for those of our listeners who have a question about Roman Catholicism.

The email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail

.com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

You might be a Roman Catholic and you are starting to question your long -held,

cherished beliefs.

You might have been raised a Roman Catholic and you are starting to question the

authenticity of the

beliefs, teachings, and practices of Roman Catholicism, but you're not ready yet to publicly identify

yourself.

That's quite understandable.

There could be a whole host of reasons.

Several years ago, a local evangelical Protestant pastor contacted me.

I did not know him before he contacted me, but have become very close friends with him since then.

But he contacted me because he knew about my program.

He knew about the debates that I organized primarily with Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries

on Roman Catholicism.

And he said, I fear I am going to convert to Rome.

I am leaning that way.

Please help.

And I did.

I sent him some books, including Dr. William Webster's The Church of

Rome at the Bar of History, which had an incredible impact on him

and really stopped him in his tracks.

And he did a 180.

And what really cemented everything is when he saw he attended a local debate that I

arranged between Dr. Tony Costa, a Reformed Baptist apologist, and

Robert Syngenis, a Roman Catholic apologist.

We had a local debate on the, I believe it

was the Immaculate Conception and Perpetual Sinlessness of Mary.

And he walked out of that debate saying, I am never going to consider converting to Rome again in my life.

I know that for certain.

But so you may be in a position like that as well.

On the other side of the spectrum, you may be an evangelical saying, I'm dabbling in Roman

Catholicism or perhaps even Eastern Orthodoxy.

I feel myself being lured into the possibility of converting.

And you don't want to identify yourself.

I understand that as well.

But if you're just asking a general question on Roman Catholic teaching, on what the Bible teaches about the

gospel and other things that divide evangelical Protestants from Roman

Catholics, if they're just general questions, give us your first name, at least, your city and state and country of residence.

Before I begin asking specific questions about our theme, Bill, if you could start off by

giving our listeners, especially for the sake of those who missed you the last time you were on,

tell our listeners about Grace Bible Church of Battleground Washington.

We are a church.

It's Baptistic.

We're Reformed Baptists.

We follow the 1689 London Baptist Confession.

We are located here in Battleground Washington, which is really a

suburb of Vancouver, which in itself is a suburb of Portland, Oregon.

We're in the state of Washington, but just across the river from Portland, Oregon.

I've been here.

I've been a pastor of this church for about 21 years, going, well, a little past

21, coming up on 22 years.

Very committed to the Reformation, very committed to the authority of the Word of God,

the gospel, and world missions.

And if anybody wants more details on this fine church, go to

gracebiblebattleground .org,

gracebiblebattleground .org, and you will receive all the information

that you need on this.

Church.

And also, Bill, please tell us about Christian Resources.

Christian Resources is basically an informational website.

It's also, well, you can order books.

I'm a writer, a publisher, and a printer of books, Christian books.

This ministry was established back in the 90s.

It's basically oriented to a defense of the Reformation, a proclamation of the true gospel.

It's full of all kinds of articles that hopefully are informative on

typical issues that really matter, historical issues on church

history, the development of Roman Catholic tradition on different issues,

why the Reformation is important and necessary.

It's just an informational type of ministry

to try to help people understand what the essential issues of the gospel and the Christian

life are.

And you can order the aforementioned three -volume work that I

cited in the beginning of the program, Holy Scripture, The Ground and Pillar of Our Faith,

that is co -authored by my two guests today, Dr. William Webster and Pastor David King.

Go to christiantruth .com, christiantruth .com, and if you're looking for that

book, click on Bookstore, and if you keep scrolling, you'll eventually find it.

In fact, it's the third one down right now, anyway, on the online catalog.

Now, David T. King, let our listeners know about Christ Church of Katy, Texas, where you serve as

assistant pastor.

Yes, as you mentioned, Chris, I do have the privilege of serving as

assistant pastor at Christ Church in Katy.

Christ Church is a congregation of the Presbyterian Church in America, and of course our

doctrinal standards are the Westminster Confession, larger and

shorter catechisms, and we're a church that seeks to preach the

biblical gospel, inviting men and women

to trust in Christ and to walk in His ways as His disciples and to mature

in the Christian faith.

It's been quite a privilege, as I said, to minister at this

congregation in Katy.

Sweet people.

And if anybody wants more information about Christ Church in Katy, Texas, go to

cckpca .org, cckpca .org.

Well, Dr. Webster, well, I'll probably be calling you Bill for most of the

program.

The last we spoke, you said that when we were discussing part one of this very same

topic, saving faith, how does Rome define it, when I brought up a

concept taught by Roman Catholicism or Roman Catholics, Roman Catholic

apologists, those in the hierarchical authority of Rome,

teach something called the unanimous consent of the fathers, and when I brought that up during part one,

you said your phone on your computer was ringing or something, and you

just totally went blank, and you completely forgot to address the issue

after that technological mishap occurred.

So I'm going to start off the program by you addressing that very important issue, because

it is a major claim of Roman Catholics.

In fact, it's not only a claim, it is something that I believe Satan has used

to deceive Protestants, even theologically reformed ones on occasion,

to either return to Rome or to convert to Rome for the first time, and

so if you could pick up where I just left off on this concept of the unanimous consent of

the fathers.

Now that term, unanimous consent of the fathers, is derived

from the Council of Trent.

It's a concept, though, that goes way back in history, but the actual term,

unanimous consent of the fathers, is a response of the Council of Trent to the

Reformation, and the Reformation teaching derived

from the ultimate and final authority of the Word of God, the written scriptures.

We know that the Reformation was known for two basic

things.

One is its teaching on authority, that the ultimate authority for the church and

for individual believers is not the church.

The ultimate authority is Christ, who mediates that authority through His Word.

So the term sola scriptura is what developed from that

commitment that the revelation given to us by God is the

written Word of God, and that all teachings are to be subject to the

examination of the judgment, the ultimate authority of the

scriptures.

It's an answer to the Reformation gospel, and their teaching about authority, the

Reformers.

And the claim is, as Trent puts it, there are two issues.

One is the doctrinal teaching of the church

historically, and then the interpretation of scripture

historically.

And what they're trying to present to men is the assertion, the claim,

that the Roman Catholic Church in the day of the Reformation, in coming against the

teaching of the Reformers, stands in the continuity, historically,

of the patristic age, that's the term fathers is what they mean,

going back all the way through the patristic age to the authority of the Word of God, but

also tradition.

So there are two basic

concepts within tridentine Roman Catholicism of

authority.

The church has ultimate authority, but then there is also the authority of the

Word of God.

It's the Word of God written and unwritten.

And what Rome is claiming is that these concepts have a continuity

that they are connected to, going all the way back to the patristic age and beyond.

And that it is unlawful, it says, to interpret scripture in any way contrary

to the unanimous consent of the fathers.

So what they're claiming is that the teaching of the Reformers is novel, it goes against the unanimous

teaching of the church throughout the ages, that Roman Catholicism

stands as an institution that is in full compliance with

that claim.

And the interesting thing is if you take the claim seriously,

they're saying that our teaching can be

judged by this law.

And what I find as a former Roman Catholic, raised in Roman

Catholicism, and looking at the claims of Rome,

and I look at this historically, John Henry Newman said, if you are conversant

with church history, you will cease to be Protestant.

And I have found it is exactly the opposite.

If you are conversant with church history, you will cease to be Roman Catholic,

because Roman Catholicism is contradictory to claim unanimous

consent of the fathers for its distinctive teachings.

It's not that everything Rome teaches is wrong, but they teach about the

example, is Orthodox.

It's the other accretions, the other teachings that they add

to what they call the rule of faith.

There you have a huge departure from the teaching of tradition and from the

teaching of scripture.

The unanimous consent principle is violated

in numerous ways, with numerous doctrines.

We have Roman, you know, how does Rome define it?

Saving faith.

That is more than just dealing with the issue of justification and the

gospel.

What enters into here is a whole plethora of doctrines

related to history, related to the papacy, related to Mary, related to the

canon of scripture, related to the sacraments, the unique teaching

about the church being the only true church and the only means of salvation.

All of these basic teachings contradict scripture, and they contradict tradition.

You will not find a unanimous consent of the fathers for these teachings.

And I believe this is something of immense importance, because what you see in the church,

you want to see a claim that was asserted by the prince in

opposition to the reformers.

It was then reaffirmed by Vatican I.

So they're saying that we can claim unanimous consent through history for everything

we teach.

Then you have, after Vatican I, with John Henry Newman, this

theory of the development of doctrine which had to be proposed

because of the breakdown between the claims of Rome and the actual facts of

history.

And now the Roman Catholic Church today has moved beyond the development of

doctrine to the teaching of living tradition, which says

you don't have to have verification for any of these teachings in scripture or

in tradition.

You do not need either.

The Roman Catholic Church itself is its own authority.

It speaks with authority at any given time in history, and

it is infallible in whatever it teaches, and it calls upon men to

put blind faith in an institution.

And that to me is the ultimate end that is utterly disastrous to the

spiritual welfare of men and women.

We're told in scripture, Colossians chapter 2, see to it that no one

takes you captive through philosophy and empty

deception through the traditions of men, which are contrary to the doctrine

of Christ.

And that is exactly what I believe Roman Catholicism has done.

It is now promoting teachings and has for centuries that are, in effect, the

traditions of men that have no grounding in either the actual tradition of the

church and unanimous consent or in the authority of the word of God.

And this is, again, just to clarify, this is a

lie that is being regurgitated and perpetuated by

not only the hierarchy of Rome, but Roman Catholic apologists who know better.

This is not something that is difficult when doing a research of history

to determine its authenticity and its truthfulness and its historic

accuracy.

It's very easy to find out, especially now that we've got your three -volume

work, Holy Scripture of the Ground and Pillar of Our Faith, and also the Church of Rome at the Bar of History in print.

It's very easy to counteract this lie and

to point out historically that it's that very thing.

It is a lie.

Am I overreaching here by just calling it a bold -faced lie, or bold -faced lies plural?

No.

I mean, it's not true.

It's not.

It's obvious it's not true.

You can look at basic facts of history, and it's admitted by

Roman Catholic apologists.

You take just the Assumption of Mary, just one example.

The Assumption of Mary, that teaching, Karl Keating, in his book Catholicism and

Fundamentalism, I don't know, 30 years ago, Karl Keating made the

assertion, we do not accept the teaching of the Assumption of Mary

because it can be found in Scripture, because it isn't there.

He says that.

Or tradition, because it isn't there either.

We accept this teaching because it is the infallible declaration of the Church

in 1950.

So, there goes unanimous consent.

That's the contradiction.

I mean, the unanimous consent of the Fathers on the

Assumption of Mary is total silence.

There's nothing there.

So you have no unanimous consent, and it gets worse, because the actual origin

of the teaching is Gnostic heresy.

That Gnostic heresy, it comes from a group of writings

that are Gnostic called the transitus literature.

The transitus literature promotes

the elevation of Mary in theology, in particular her Assumption.

That teaching of the Assumption was condemned, those writings of the Gnostics, the

transitus literature, where this originated, was condemned by two

bishops of Rome in the late 5th and early 6th centuries,

by Galatius and Hermistus.

This literature was condemned by name.

It was condemned along with such heretics as Arius, Apollinarius,

Pelagius, and others.

It was thoroughly condemned.

And it was only through a freak issue of history that the teaching began

to slowly find its emergence in the late church,

beginning about 590, through one church father who

bought into the transitus literature unwittingly, thinking that it

was an ancient writing of a church father.

And over time it marched until by 1950, the

bishop of Rome, Pius XII, decreed it to

be a dogma of the church, necessary to be believed for

salvation.

Well that is not scriptural, it is not tradition, it is just a church

declaring in its own authority a human teaching that originated

with heresy.

And David, you have some citations that you wanted to provide for our listeners that reflect

precisely on this deception of Rome.

Yes.

In fact, David, I just realized that we are going to our first break right now, so when we come back you can do

that.

And let me remind our guests, please mute yourselves during the station break.

You will hear me return to the program when the break is over.

If anybody wants to join us with a question of your own, once again, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail

.com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N, gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

We'll be right back, don't go away.

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Always mention Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

David King, I cut you short before the commercial break.

You were just about to provide some citations of Roman Catholic scholars

about this whole concept of the unanimous consent of the fathers that may actually

favor the Protestant objection to that concept.

Right, Chris.

You take, for example, the Roman scholar Joseph Witzmeier in his book,

Scripture, the Soul of Theology.

He points out that there was no uniform or monolithic, patristic

interpretation, either in the Greek Church of the East, Alexandrian or Antiochian, or in the Latin

Church of the West.

And he just then plainly admits no one can ever tell us where such a unanimous

consent of the fathers is to be found.

In other words, when you seek to apply it, it just can't be found.

And then Bill also referred to Cardinal Conger, and in Conger's

book titled Tradition and Traditions, he points out the

same thing that Joseph Fitzmeier points out.

And here, at this time, talking not so much about the assumption of Mary, but

even talking about the famous passage of Matthew chapter 16, which

Roman apologists want to cite as if this

makes Peter the supreme leader in the church.

They plainly admit, Conger does, that there is no unanimous consent in the

fathers concerning this teaching on Matthew chapter 16.

He said, except that Rome, that passage was not applied by the fathers to papal

primacy.

And he goes on to say that they worked out an exegesis at the level of their own

ecclesiological thought.

And it's amazing.

And then he goes on to admit, Conger does, it is the church, he says, not the fathers,

but the consensus of the church in submission to its savior, which is the

sufficient rule of our Christianity.

I don't know where you could have a plainer statement of sola ecclesia when he says

it's the church alone that is the sufficient rule of our Christianity.

Conger also points out, he says, the plain material fact, he says, of agreement or

disagreement, however extensive, he says it does not allow us to speak of a

consensus patrum, that is the consent of the fathers at the properly dogmatic

level for the authors studied in theology are only fathers in the theological sense

if they have in some way begotten the church which follows them.

And he says the theological weight of this patristic consent,

like Fitzmer, he says it's subject to so many conditions that it

cannot be easily assessed.

It certainly can't be easily assessed.

It's of no practical use.

And Bill also mentioned that the assumption, the dogma concerning the

assumption of Mary came from a Gnostic document.

I've always found it interesting, myself, that when you read

in the writings of someone like G. W. H. Lampe, who gave us the

patristic Greek lexicon, a man who was well

-informed, he writes and he tells us that according to Irenaeus, the

Valentinians, that is a Gnostic group, claimed that the truth in scripture cannot be

discovered by those who are ignorant of tradition.

And then he goes on to say that it's in Gnosticism that we encounter for the

first time this idea of unwritten tradition as an authority for doctrine.

And he says unlike Orthodox tradition, it's neither the raw material, as it were, of what is to become

scripture, nor the explication of what is contained in scripture.

And he says it is wholly independent of scripture and even superior

to it, since only in the light of tradition can scripture

be understood.

And he says that comes from a Gnostic source.

And so it's in Gnosticism that Lampe reminds us that we

encounter unwritten tradition for the first time in the early history of

the church.

We have a listener who has a question.

His name is Christopher from Western Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

And he says, just as we who are Protestants and

Reformed Christians hate it when our theological opponents cite

liberal and leftist and apostate Protestants to back up their claims

against Protestantism, how do you respond to Roman Catholics who will

reply to the evidence that you've just provided by saying, oh, those are just

left -wing Catholic apologists and they should not even enter into the discussion?

Yeah, I've heard, I believe, Raymond Brown even referred to that way, who's a Catholic

theologian, I believe, now deceased.

But anyway, if you could, let's start with David, since he's provided the citations, and then we'll go to

Bill on that.

Yes, both Brown and Fitzmyer have commented on this.

I wouldn't just say that they're liberals, I would say that they're honest

Roman Catholic exegetes.

But at the same time, there's nothing liberal about Conger.

Conger, I mean, this man's a cardinal in the church.

So if a Roman apologist wants to disagree,

that's fine.

It's his private opinion compared to a cardinal in the Roman communion.

And of course their own pope, who is in the chair of Peter, according to them, the seat of Peter,

is the most left -wing pope that they've ever had in the history of their religion.

That's true.

And if you raise that, Roman apologists today do not like to be reminded

of how liberal their present pope is.

They would rather not discuss that.

How convenient.

Healthy church led, you would say.

Bill, do you have anything to add?

Well, if you look at what these men are saying, Conger

is citing data.

He's a patristic scholar.

He's conservative.

He's a defender of the Roman Catholic Church.

He's not a liberal.

He's dealing with the facts of history.

You go back again to what Trent said, the unanimous consent of the fathers in interpreting scripture,

it is unlawful to interpret scripture in any way contrary to the

unanimous consent of the fathers.

Well, all you have to do is look at this all -important passage of the Rock of

Peter, the Rock of Matthew 16, what that means.

How did the fathers interpret, exegete, the meaning of that

passage?

You can begin with Origen and Tertullian and Cyprian and

Athanasius and come on up the line to Chrysostom and Basil the Great and Augustine and

Jerome and onward.

What you find in the patristic age is a unanimous consent.

It does exist, the interpretation of the Rock of Matthew 16.

The problem is it's utterly opposed to the present -day teaching of

the Roman Catholic Church, which really was dogmatized by Vatican

I in 1870.

What the fathers unanimously taught was that the Rock is not the

person of Peter, with the implication then that there are

successors in the bishops of Rome exclusively

who take upon the role of Peter.

That the church is built upon Christ as the foundation and that the

Rock is either Peter's confession of Christ, you are the Christ, the

son of the living God, or it is Christ's self because Paul

says specifically in 1 Corinthians 10, the Rock is Christ.

Ephesians 2 talks about the church being built upon

the prophets and the apostles, that is the word of the living God old and new testaments.

Christ is the cornerstone.

He is the rock and foundation.

There is no other.

It's certainly not going to be built on a man who had to be rebuked by the apostle Peter

for distorting the gospel.

By the apostle Paul, yes.

So how can he be the foundation to the church?

He's a fallible human being.

That foundation is Christ.

And Augustine, I'll give you one example.

Augustine says in exegeting this passage, Christ did

not build his church on a man but on Peter's

confession.

So he completely rejects that whole perspective of

present -day Roman Catholic ecclesiology that is grounded in

that exegesis of the Rock in Matthew 16 that runs counter to

the unanimous consent of the fathers.

That is what a man like Conger is dealing with.

In fact, we have to go to our midway break, Bill.

You can pick up where you left off when we return to the program.

By the way, I want to quickly mention you can get the book that Bill wrote on this very issue, the Matthew

16 Controversy, Peter and the Rock at christiantruth .com, christiantruth .com.

This is the longer break than normal, folks, so please be patient.

I want to remind my guests to also mute themselves.

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Don't go away.

We are going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our Sovereign

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Before I return to my two guests, Dr. William Webster and David T. King,

on Saving Faith, How Does Rome Define It? Part 2, I just have some important announcements to

make.

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I also want to remind you that the two events that are coming up here in Pennsylvania in April

featuring my two guests today, Dr. William Webster and David T. King, they're just around the

corner.

They're absolutely free.

The first is the next Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville,

Pennsylvania, and the second is a three -day Bible conference at the

Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

The latter is on the theme, The Gospel, Removed by Rome, Rescued by the Reformers,

Rejected by Modern Evangelicals.

If you'd like to register for either of those events, the first on Thursday, April 13th, the

second on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, the 14th, 15th, and 16th of April,

just send me an email to chrisarns and at gmail .com and put either or both Pastors Luncheon

and conference in the subject line.

We hope to see as many of you there as possible, and it is always a joy to conduct these

events now twice a year.

My Pastors Luncheon was the brainchild of my precious late wife, Julie.

Back in the 1990s, and we continue to conduct these Pastors Luncheons

in tribute to her and in loving memory of her.

So send me that email to chrisarns and at gmail .com and put Luncheon and or Conference in the subject line.

Last but not least, if you are not a member of a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful,

theologically sound, doctrinally solid church, no matter where on the planet Earth you live,

such as Grace Bible Church of Battleground, Washington and Christ Church of Katy,

Texas, well, I have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches,

and no matter where you live, I may be able to help you find a church, sometimes, as I have done many times with listeners in our

audience all over the world, within just a couple of minutes from where you live.

So that may be you if you send me an email to chrisarns and at gmail .com and put I Need a Church in the

subject line.

That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Dr. William Webster and David T. King on the

theme, Saving Faith, How Does Rome Define It?

This is part two of a discussion that we began a number of weeks ago and are

continuing today, and before the midway break, Dr. Webster, I believe I had to

cut you short while you were answering questions about, I think we were still

on the thread or the theme of the so -called unanimous consent of the fathers.

Do you remember where you left off there?

Yeah, we were dealing with a particular application of that principle.

Trent talks about the interpretation of Scripture, how it is

unlawful to interpret Scripture that's contrary to the unanimous consent

of the fathers.

In their interpretation of Scripture, and the point I was making is that there is indeed a

unanimous consent of the rock of Matthew 16, which is the

foundational passage for the entirety of Roman Catholicism

and its authority.

It's the rock of Matthew 16 and what that means, and none of the

church fathers teach what Vatican I taught about

the rock of Matthew 16 being the person of Peter, who then has successors

exclusively in the bishops of Rome who follow in his train as

those who are given exclusive authority over the church universal,

that they are the center of unity for the church.

The fact of the matter is historically there has never been a universal ruler

of the entire church.

The interpretation of Matthew 16, I was giving an example from Augustine

who said Christ did not build his church on a man, but on Peter's confession.

And that is his consistent view of the

rock of Matthew 16 and all the other church fathers follow in his example.

You have the whole issue of Luke 22, 32, which

is papal infallibility.

This was used by Vatican I as justification for its teaching,

which it says has been held by the church from the very beginning that the

bishops of Rome, when speaking ex cathedra in their official capacity

as teachers of the church and in their official capacity as rulers of the church, on any

subject related to doctrine or discipline or practice are infallible

in what they decree.

And they use Luke 22 as a sort of the undergirding

support foundation scripturally in their interpretation that Christ said to

Peter, I pray for you that your faith will not fail.

No church father, not one, in the patristic age, ever

taught that that particular passage meant that the bishops of Rome are infallible

when they speak ex cathedra.

They did not believe Peter was infallible.

They did not believe that is what the passage meant.

Brian Tierney, who is a world -renowned Roman Catholic medieval scholar, I don't

think he's living still.

He makes a statement, the scriptural text most commonly cited in favor of papal infallibility

is Luke 22, 32.

There is no lack of patristic commentary on the text.

None of the fathers interpreted it as meaning that Peter's successors were

infallible.

No convincing argument has ever been put forward explaining why they should not have

stated that the text implied a doctrine of papal infallibility if that is

what they understood it to mean.

So what you have then is you have a church who has promulgated a law

that now turns around and contradicts the very law it has

promulgated in opposition to the reformers.

And it's the reformers who, in fact, are more true

to the patristic understanding of the church, the patristic understanding of scripture

and the gospel than the Roman Catholic Church and the unanimous consent of the fathers.

Calvin said, if this argument is going to be based on the consent of the fathers, he said, we

will easily win the argument.

But what the Roman Catholic Church has done, it has, if you

think about unanimous consent, Vincent of Lerins in the 5th century

promulgated this concept of unanimous consent where he asked the question in one of

his treatises, how do I know what is truly apostolic?

What is true tradition in the church?

Because there are so many conflicting opinions.

And he basically set forth what he considers a principle that is

foundational.

He said, it's that which is believed everywhere, always, and by all.

That's unanimous consent.

What was believed everywhere, always, and by all in the early church is what is called the rule of

faith.

The rule of faith is simply the creed.

Every doctrine of the creed is rooted in the written scriptures.

There's nothing of oral tradition there.

That is what was universally believed and embraced.

Irenaeus defines it.

Origen defines it.

Tertullian defines it.

This was the binding teaching of the church universal.

What Rome has done is it's added to what was never believed in the early church.

And it now says these doctrines of the papacy and Mary and purgatory

and the canon of scripture and its soteriological teachings on the sacraments

are all necessary for salvation in contradiction to

scripture and to the tradition of the early church.

We have a listener who is addressing his question

to David in particular, but I'll allow also Bill to have a follow -up answer if

he desires to.

This anonymous listener says, Brother David I know that you are Presbyterian

and I love Presbyterians and many of my friends are Presbyterians and I

love visiting conferences and churches where Presbyterians are speaking.

But I've always been puzzled why many of the most conservative Presbyterians who are confessional

and theologically orthodox will insist that the Church of Rome is a true

representation of Christ's Church on Earth in addition to the Protestant churches.

Do you believe this?

And if not, how do you respond to that?

That's a very good question.

I suppose I would be in disagreement with some of my brethren regarding

the Church of Rome.

I know that it has historically been the tendency of many Presbyterians

to acknowledge the sacraments of the Church of Rome, particularly

baptism, to be valid.

But when one considers that ever since Trent, the Council of Trent, which

was the Roman response to the Protestant reformers, that

the Roman Church has even fallen into more

egregious errors since that time, and even more so

than Calvin's day, and has gone further and further into

doctrinal aberration.

So I would simply say no, I don't agree.

And I know that the question has really come up in the present day

as to how we're to regard Rome, but I no longer refer to

Rome as, it's not a church.

In my personal opinion, it's not a legitimate church.

She has compromised the Gospel in so many ways, and has

departed from the Biblical Gospel.

I just don't share that sympathy, and I can understand the dear brother's

question with respect to that.

I would be on the opposite side of that which he has experienced.

In fact, I want to plug a book that you could get on Amazon by the great

J .H.

Thornwell.

It has been retitled, in its modern form, Sacramental Sorcery, the Invalidity of Roman

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J .H. Thornwell, and I found that an absolutely fascinating book.

Thornwell was a Presbyterian, by the way,.

Folks.

He was a Southern.

Presbyterian.

Yes, yes, but I'm assuming you were in agreement with.

Thornwell.

Yes, yes.

And Bill, do you have any follow -up on that?

Other than.

Convert to Baptist?

Just kidding, Dave.

I kid David.

He's Presbyterian in theology, but he preaches like a Baptist, so you know.

Anyway,.

I would say the main issue here is the Gospel.

Because the Gospel is the defining issue.

It's the foundation for everything.

It's the power of God to salvation.

It is the authoritative message given to the Church to proclaim to the world.

If you pervert that message, Galatians 1 says you are under the curse of God.

Amen.

Okay?

So, if I'm promoting a false Gospel, and I'm

promoting a message that deceives men for all eternity,

I have forfeited any right to call myself a Church of

Jesus Christ.

I am no, that is not a true Church.

The true Church is built upon the Apostles and the Prophets, that is, the Word of the Living God, with

Christ Jesus as the cornerstone.

We cannot pervert that message.

It is the unifying factor that draws all true

believers together.

It's the foundation for the Church at large.

And it is the message that is to be proclaimed throughout the world.

The Roman Catholic Church has officially condemned, at the Council of Trent, in Canon 10,

on justification the imputed righteousness of Christ for justification.

That's a very hard part of the heart of the Gospel.

It has officially condemned it.

That eliminates, in my mind at least, because they're under the curse of

God, and they need to repent of being able to claim themselves to be

the true Church of Christ.

It all comes back to the truth of the Gospel.

Amen.

And by the way, I want to let Christopher from Western Suffolk

County, Long Island, and also this anonymous listener, I believe I failed to mention, that

they have both won a free copy of a book by William Webster, Salvation,

the Bible, and Roman Catholicism, compliments of Banner of Truth, and

also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com, who is a sponsor of

this program and will be shipping those books out to you.

Anonymous listener, if you are also a first -time questioner, on top of this free book, you will

also receive a new American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB.

Can you just briefly describe this book for our listeners, Bill?

When I first began to investigate many years ago,

the official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, I was taken back by the lack of

available information.

So I began to research and to read the official documents of

what I had been raised in, related to catechisms, papal

decrees, the Code of Canon Law, the councils, Vatican

I, Vatican II, trying to get my arms around the totality of

what Rome officially teaches.

And it became very apparent in my study that there were significant issues

with the teaching of Roman Catholicism on the Gospel and Salvation, and that which is taught in the Word of

God.

So it was my desire to clarify the issues because there was a lot of confusion

with people that I would talk to about what Rome really officially taught.

So this is basically, it's a presentation

of the official teaching of Roman Catholicism.

What is salvation from the perspective of the Roman Catholic Church?

What are the major doctrines?

And then we're looking at Scripture.

How does that compare to what the Word of God teaches?

And what is salvation?

And I found it's just a major conflict between the two.

That's why I could never go back into the Roman Catholic Church,

both on Biblical grounds and historical grounds, but most importantly, the

Biblical issue of the Gospel.

So this is as it's titled, Salvation's the main theme,

the Gospel, Salvation, the Bible, because that is your ultimate source of

authority.

And Roman Catholicism, how does Rome compare in its teaching with what the Word of God teaches

on salvation?

Great.

And we have a question from B .B. in Cumberland County,

Pennsylvania.

And again, this is being highlighted for David King,

but of course, Bill can respond as well.

B .B. asks, how do you respond to your fellow Presbyterians and Pato Baptists

who say that the Reformers themselves were never rebaptized after

receiving Roman Catholic baptism?

Well, they certainly received baptism, but even Calvin

pointed out that there were many churches under the umbrella of Rome who still held fast to the

Gospel in his day, and so they didn't.

Just want to,.

It was not the intent of the Reformers, least of all Calvin, to unchurch those

who had been baptized within the Roman Communion, and many churches that still held

firmly to the Biblical Gospel.

It's interesting to me that even when you find

the great defender of the Council of Trent, which was Cardinal Bellarmine, when he was

discussing in his work on justification, he set forth the Roman

doctrine, but then it's interesting, and John Owen is citing Bellarmine

at this point, and he cites Bellarmine as this on justification, where

Bellarmine writes and says, Christ is said to be our righteousness because he has made satisfaction

for us to the Father, and doth so give and communicate that satisfaction

unto us when he justifieth us that may be said to be our

satisfaction and righteousness.

And Owen points, and then Bellarmine goes on to say, and in this sense, it

would not be absurd if anyone should say that the righteousness

of Christ and his merits are imputed unto us

as if we ourselves had satisfied God.

And then Owen comments on that statement of the Cardinal, he says, in this sense we say that Christ

is the Lord, our righteousness, nor is there anything of importance in the whole doctrine of

justification that we own which is not here granted by the

Cardinal.

In other words, Owen's pointing out the inconsistency on the part

of Bellarmine when it comes to the whole issue of justification.

So again, in response to the listener, there were still churches in Calvin's day,

it was not clear that all of these churches under the umbrella of Rome

had at that time departed from the biblical gospel.

Yeah, this was before Trent, because Trent was a response to the Reformation.

So therefore, Trent would later, after the Reformers were

adults and had already been baptized as children or infants many years prior,

Rome did not dogmatize many of their absolutely most heretical and even

blasphemous dogmas that were required to be believed until after the Reformation.

Right?

Right.

I would recommend that this listener, if you can acquire,

Calvin responded to another Roman

bishop, Sadele, and if you can get a hold of the little booklet,

A Reformation Debate, where Calvin is responding to

Sadele, I think it would be very helpful for that person to read that

little book.

And Bill, do you have any follow -up?

No, I think David handled that quite well.

Okay, we have another anonymous, oh, by the way, Bibi, you have also won a free copy of William

Webster's book, Salvation the Bible and Roman Catholicism.

Thank you, Banner of Truth, for providing those free copies and also thank you, CVBBS .com for

shipping them out to our winners.

We have an anonymous listener who sets his or her target on me.

The anonymous listener says, although I find Chris Arnzen's guest

today, Mr. Webster and King, to be very respectful and gracious and polite,

Mr. Arnzen seems to use a lot of vitriol and nastiness in the way he describes

Roman Catholicism and Roman Catholics using words such as satanic.

Is this really called for when we are trying to mend wounds and

rebuild bridges and heal relationships between

Protestants and Roman Catholics?

Well, first of all, I don't think that I am out of line because I'm not

speaking about individuals first of all.

I know Roman Catholics that I believe are superior people to me as

far as they are more gracious, more humble,

more merciful.

I'm not talking about every Roman Catholic.

I'm just saying I know specific individuals that are better husbands than I ever was

and better children to their parents than I ever was, better siblings to their siblings than I ever was,

better friends to their friends, better citizens.

I could go on and on.

But that is not the issue.

It's the gospel.

And I think that we are doing people that we love and care about a disservice

when we candy coat the terminology we use about our differences

and give anyone a false impression that their differences are of

secondary and tertiary importance and have no salvific impact on

them.

So I make no apology for using words like satanic, especially when

I'm talking about the false dogma of Rome.

But perhaps my guests agree with you and not me.

Let's start with Bill this time.

Bill, I mean, do you think I'm out of line the way I've been speaking?

I meant to speak to you after the show, Chris.

No, I don't. No. No, I don't think.

You're out of line.

I think if you look at the example of the Apostle Paul, even Jesus, when he's dealing with

someone like Herod, or the Apostle Paul when he's dealing with the Judaizers,

you know, we want to be respectful.

I'm not saying don't be respectful.

You always want to be respectful.

You want to be gracious.

I don't think there's any place in being a follower of Christ, being

unloving and ungracious and prideful and arrogant.

You are to have a humble, submissive spirit of servant heart.

You're to love men, but you are also never to compromise truth.

And the gospel has to do with the eternal destinies of men and women.

And so Paul's dealing with the Judaizers in Galatians 1.

Paul is not seeking to build bridges.

He's not seeking to heal a relationship.

He is not trying to heal wounds.

He is proclaiming truth.

I mean, he'd love it if they would repent and come to a fullness of the gospel, but he

says you're under the curse of God.

From the Catholicism, and we're talking objectively, look at its doctrine.

The very gospel of the Judaizers is the gospel of Rome.

Priests, high priests, ceremonial feast days, and

ongoing sacrifice, altars.

It's all the same.

It's different terminology, but the principle of what they're teaching

is exactly the same.

Christ is not sufficient.

We're adding to who he is and what he's done.

The works of man.

And so when Paul says you are under the curse of God, and he warns

those believers, do not have anything to do with

these people or their teaching, or you will likewise be under the curse

of God.

We have to stand very clearly for the truth of the gospel and

just as clearly to correct that which is contrary to it out of love

for people and out of a sense for the glory of God and for his will.

So no, I don't think that you're out of line.

You're not disrespectful or unloving, but you

are committed to the word of God and it's true.

Alright, hurry it up, Bill.

David, do you have anything to add?

Especially if it's a glowing compliment of me?

I'm going to I'm just simply going to say that I think that Bill has

expressed it well.

I don't know how anyone can read the Apostle Paul's opening words

to the Galatians and come away thinking how

ironic of Paul in his opening comment.

I mean, when he's talking about these people who have departed from the gospel and when he's

talking about the Judaizers, he says, let them be accursed.

I just ask, is that ironic expressions on the

part of the Apostle Paul?

I think not.

There has to be a time when you call falsehood for what it really

is.

He says, you're preaching another gospel, which is not a gospel.

It is not good news.

And so I would I think we can leave it there.

I have no desire and I know that my dear brothers here have no desire to

be offensive to those who are members of the Roman Communion,

but we have such a love and a zeal for the gospel that we can

scarcely allow any

departure from what is so clearly set forth in Holy Scripture.

I was listening to a Roman apologist the other day who was saying

that the Word of God is never called Scripture in Scripture.

And I'm sitting there and I'm just cringing at that sort of comment, which is

trying to drive a wedge between the Word of God and Holy Scripture.

And there are members of the Communion of Rome who would never go so far as

to make such statements as that.

It just seems to undermine Holy Scripture and for what it is as the

God -breathed Word.

So,.

You know, in one sense, you know, we do not like to be offensive

for the sake of offense.

But we just desire to be true to the biblical gospel as it has come to

us in Holy Scripture.

Thank you.

And we are going to our final break.

It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks.

If you have a question, send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

And by the way, Anonymous, even though you publicly insulted me, you have also won a free copy

of Salvation, the Bible and Roman Catholicism by William Webster.

So, don't go away.

We're going to be right back.

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Welcome back.

I would like to read a quote by the late R .C. Sproul that really

reflects, I think, beautifully my attitude about evangelizing my

Roman Catholic family, friends, and loved ones and acquaintances and people who I meet who are

strangers.

And I think that it couldn't be said better.

R .C. Sproul said Christians have nothing to be smug about.

We are not righteous people trying to correct the unrighteous.

As one preacher said, evangelism is just one beggar telling another

beggar where to find bread.

The chief difference between the believer and the unbeliever is forgiveness.

So that's where I'm coming from folks.

If you.

Could, Bill Webster, I want to give you a minute and a half or so

to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners and then we'll have David King do the

same afterward.

I would just really urge listeners to give heed to

the biblical gospel.

To go to the Word of God.

Read it for yourselves.

Understand it.

Ask the Lord for understanding.

To follow the Church of Rome is to follow an institution that stands

sadly very opposed to the biblical and

authoritative Word of God and that message that is the very heart of it,

which is salvation.

What does it mean to know God?

There is nothing more important on the face of the earth than that a man or a woman

understand what it means to be saved.

And this gospel message that God has given to be proclaimed to the ends of the earth,

of salvation in His Son, that that message can be distorted.

And sadly, as we've seen with the claims of Roman Catholicism, they make historical claims

that are false.

To men and women who generally speaking are ignorant of Church history, those claims

tend to have an appeal and they draw men in to false

teaching with respect to the gospel and the Word of God.

You need to be objective and we need to be just

absolutely focused on what the Word of God teaches.

And David, could you pick up?

Well, we're kind of running out of time.

Go ahead.

I would simply add the reason why Bill and I are so aggressive when it

comes to holding to the principle of sola scriptura is for the very reason which he just stated.

It is the biblical gospel that is at stake.

And I would just urge everyone that the gospel is all about the person

and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

We're to turn away from our sins with godly repentance

and we are to embrace by faith the Lord Jesus Christ.

And there is an ongoing relationship of obedience to him that must

be maintained by every sincere believer in Christ.

And so the gospel is paramount.

Amen.

And I want to make sure our listeners have both of your websites.

First of all, the Grace Bible Church of Battleground Washington where my guest Dr.

William Webster is pastor.

More information can be found at gracebiblebattleground .org

gracebiblebattleground .org.

Gracebiblebattleground .org.

Also Bill Webster's book ministry.

Christian Resources can be found at christiantruth .com christiantruth .com.

And finally, the church where my guest Rev. David T. King is an associate

pastor Christ Church of Katy, Texas.

More information can be found at cckpca .org cckpca

.org.

I want to thank both of you for doing an absolute superb job again

and I want you to both come back.

I think that this deserves a part three if you are up for it.

And I'll schedule that god willing after we get off the air.

I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who took the time to write in

questions even the one that insulted me and I want

you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than

you are a sinner.