Do We Have to Obey Paul's Writings Also

They're using this kind of phrase in the context of, you know, discussing some Bible verse that is extremely clear, like there's no question about what is being talked about here, you know, and they'll say some sort of, you know, like, well you're taking that out of context or that's your interpretation or, you know,

Jesus didn't say that, Paul did or Peter did. Tim, the question for today's episode is, do

I have to obey Paul too? Seems like we should. I mean, you know, what he says is in the Bible too.

You know, it's funny that you mentioned that because a little backstory, you know, I grew up,

I wouldn't say, well, I wouldn't necessarily say I grew up in church from a young age, but I did spend, you know, like the last year or two years of middle school and then all of high school attending the same church fairly regularly and then, you know, on into college and just as a person who would go regularly, wasn't necessarily involved very deeply and, you know,

I didn't really have the greatest understanding of a lot of theological things, but, you know, I understood what the gospel was, all of the basics of Christianity.

I just sort of assumed that everyone who said they were a Christian believed that all of the

Bible was the Bible. You know? So, like, if we were, if the pastor was going to –

Jared It's pretty safe, right? Tim Yeah, I mean, like, it seems like a pretty normal thing to assume.

So, like, if the pastor was going to preach out of, you know, like Philippians or Hebrews or something,

I just assumed that, you know, like, yep, he's preaching out of the Bible. But as I, you know, as I've matured more and more and as I've sort of put myself out there interacting, you know, with a lot of people who claim to be

Christian, whether that be in person or online, I've come to realize that that's not the case and that there are a lot of people who claim the name of Christ who essentially think that no part of the

Bible is valid except for the red letters, right? So, they –

Jared But they don't even, they don't even think that, though. Tim Well, you know, that's true. So, I've met, you know, a lot of these people and I'll bring up various, you know, commands.

So, like, for one example, I remember back when all of the

COVID -19 stuff was going on, you know, and they were shutting down churches, you know,

I knew a lot of people who claimed to be Christians who were essentially saying that it was unloving and dishonoring to God to attend church.

And so, I would just, I would just quote, you know, a simple Bible verse that's, you know, where it says, don't neglect the gathering of believers as is the habit of some, right?

And I got this response a lot, which is essentially, you know, well, that's, you know, that's not

Jesus talking, so I don't have to follow that. And I was just kind of like, whoa, what?

What do you mean? I mean, that's the Bible. It's the same, you know, it's like, it's the same deal, you know?

And the funny thing is, all of those people, if you look at their lives, I, you know, maybe there's someone that I'm not thinking of right now that this doesn't necessarily apply to, but I mean, the vast majority of them, none of them look like Jesus at all in any way

Jared I mean, is it the pink hair and the piercings all over their face that gives it away? Pete I mean, that's part of it, you know?

The other part of it is just totally rejecting his apostles, you know?

So, it's like not only do they, for some reason, think that, you know,

Paul doesn't count and they don't have to obey Paul, but they don't even, they don't even look like they obey

Jesus. So, what's happening here, Tim? Why is this so prevalent?

Tim Well, so yeah, I mean, I think in our Twitter feed over the past couple of days, there is actually like one guy that I've seen so far that actually like really believes that, you know, we should, we shouldn't obey

Paul, but only Jesus. But I mean, the vast majority of people that make those kind of comments,

I mean, they're not coming from some sort of like position that they've actually adopted that you should only obey the red letters or something along those lines.

So this is, I mean, this is like one out of, you know, a thousand, you know, thousands and thousands maybe of people who are making these kind of arguments.

But the vast majority of people who are making that kind of argument that, you know, where did Jesus say that or something like that?

Those are people who really, they really have no interest whatsoever in submitting their, you know, will to the authority of Jesus in any area, period.

So this is just something that they're saying. And I mean, for the vast majority of people, this is just one little quip that they throw out among many that's intended to basically obfuscate the passage, you know?

So it's just like, this is just a move that people make that it's like throwing a smoke bomb or something, like a ninja or something, where it's just like distract, right?

You know, so you make a claim, you make a biblical claim, and then they're just going to try to distract you essentially and get you to focus on their little dodge or whatever.

So this is just one among many. I mean, there's many like dodges like that that people make that are pretty obnoxious when you think about it.

So I mean, like the context dodge, like essentially is just another example of this kind of move where they'll just look, like you'll make a claim from a biblical passage and they'll look at you and they'll say, hey, you're taking that out of context.

And they think that they just said something profound and significant or something meaningful, but really all that they,

I mean, really like all that they did was just, that was just like a dodge, if you understand what

I mean. Like that didn't mean anything, it didn't have any content, it was just like a phrase that they threw out to distract you to where now they're, like they're not going to actually explain how the context in that passage shows something different.

They're just saying, you're taking that out of context as like a magical talisman to ward away your exegesis or something like that.

You know, and so then they make a similar kind of claim with the Jesus move that you're talking about where they'll just say, hey, where did

Jesus say that, right? So show me in the Bible where Jesus said that, or, you know, they may like, if you're arguing for a doctrinal position, where in the

Bible does it say that exact word or where is the Bible doesn't say that exact phrase, right? So, you know, they'll make these kinds of arguments, but then they're not serious arguments and they're just things that they've learned.

They've heard, like they picked up over time, this is the kind of thing that skeptics say in order to try to win an argument. Pete Yeah, it's like a get out of jail free card.

Jared Right, that's - Pete It's like a get out of obeying God free card. Jared Right, and getting out of having to actually explain what the passage means kind of card, right?

So, like that's what they're, so the whole goal of it is just to say, did God really say, right? Pete Yeah, yeah.

Jared Like that's the whole goal. Pete Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I've seen so many people who they use this kind of phrase and they're using this kind of phrase in the context of, you know, discussing some

Bible verse that is extremely clear. Like there's no question about what is being talked about here, you know, and they'll say some sort of, you know, like, well, you're taking that out of context or that's your interpretation or, you know,

Jesus didn't say that. Paul did or Peter did or John did or whoever did. And it's like, well, like, hey, look,

I hate to break it to you, but guess who wrote the Gospels? It wasn't Jesus.

Pete Sorry, you know, I don't know what to tell you. Jared Right, right. Well, they're all, I mean, I think the vast majority of people are functioning, like these are just dodges that they're doing.

They're just like, you know, magical phrases that they're using that functionally have no meaning. And you know that they do because you can't get these people to interact with what the text actually means.

So, they're not people who are like seriously making this kind of case. Jared Like these are people that have no, they have no responsibility whatsoever to do any, like, they feel no obligation to do anything with these words at all.

So, the Bible is kind of played out to them. It just means whatever they want it to mean. And you know, for the most of them, they just, they absolutely have no idea what any of it says anyways.

So, it's just, you know, it's just a book that they do whatever they want with while they're saying that they're a

Christian, essentially. So, these are just kind of phrases that just functionally have the semantic equivalent of just calling you a bigot or something, you know?

It's just like ignore, like, you know, it's just basically, yeah, I disagree with you. That's all that they're saying.

They disagree with you. Pete Right. So, you know, as people who are trying to, you know, find truth, how do we interact with someone who throws out this sort of, like, meaningless phrase that's meant to be just like a leave me alone, get out of, obeying

God free card? Jared Yeah, I mean, I don't know that there's often a lot of value.

You know, there's the online, the internet expression, you know, don't feed the trolls or something like that. But you know, when you have, like, you make a post online or you say something online and you have, you know, hundreds and hundreds of people who are making these kind of arguments,

I mean, at a certain point, you're just kind of wasting your time if you're going through and explaining some kind of, you know, textual argument for the canonicity of Paul's letters or something along those lines.

So, typically, I'll just kind of throw out a picture that is pointing to Peter, you know, validating

Paul as basically his writings being scripture, you know? So, I'll just do something like that, but I'm not going to invest a whole lot of time in it.

And you can just waste a lot of time trying to argue with these kind of people. But I mean, they're really not very reasonable. Pete What about people in person, though?

Because I mean, there's definitely going to be situations where you're talking to someone who is saying that, not meant to,

I mean, it's serving the same purpose, but they're not necessarily meaning it as like a, they're just saying what they genuinely believe, not necessarily like an outright trolling kind of thing.

Jared Yeah, I just don't think that, I think that functionally no one who is making that argument is making an argument based on what they actually believe.

Jared I mean, so, I mean, there's like a, I can give you a right answer to how you answer that question, but I'm just telling you it probably won't matter, okay?

Pete Sure. Jared Like, so, the kind of person who's making this kind of argument, you know, 99, like 999 times out of 1000 or something like that, they have no interest in the truth whatsoever, and this is just their mechanism to ignore the

Bible. So, you have to know that going into, like, that's the point, you have to know that going into that kind of conversation, that this person, they don't have any interest whatsoever in obeying the

Bible. So, like in a lot of ways, like what you're trying to do in those moments is not trying to persuade them that this is actually

Scripture, because the issue is they don't care if Jesus said it anyways, right? Pete Right. Jared So, if you can give them a passage that where Jesus is saying something similar, they're just going to move on to, well, you're taking that out of context or one of the other, you know, stupid things.

Jared So, a lot of it's just about, like, submitting to the authority of God in that way and, like, repenting of their sin, importance of the gospel, believe in the good news.

So, a lot of it's, like, this is just not about what it's being presented as about, right? This is just one little thing they're going to say among many, but, you know, having said that, though,

I mean, conceptually, it's fairly easy to understand why we would think that Paul's writings are

Scripture, and, you know, part of that's related to what's happening in John 1612. So, Jesus says,

I still have many things to say to you, this is to his apostles, but you cannot bear them now. But when the

Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak of his own authority, but whatever he hears, he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine, therefore,

I said, he will take what is mine and declare it to you. So, like, this is just a passage where Jesus is saying to his apostles in the upper room that he has more things to say to them, and many people think that this is just, like, when the

Spirit comes, he's going to, you know, give every single believer whisper in their ears, you know, in a still, small voice, you know, his specific instructions for how they're to make decisions or something along those lines.

But that's not really the Spirit's role. What Jesus is saying is he has more commands to give to the apostles.

So, part of how you understand what's actually happening in the New Testament is, you know, Jesus says that he – or Luke says that he wrote to Theophilus an orderly account so that they would know with certainty, you know, what

Jesus did and taught. And then when you get to Acts, one of the things you're going to find is Luke kind of tells his purpose in writing the book of Acts.

So, in Acts 1, 1, he says, in the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach until the day he was taken up.

So, that's what the Gospels are. They're a record of all that Jesus did and taught until the day he was taken up.

After, you know, Luke says he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he has chosen.

So, what that tells you there is that, you know, in Luke's mind, like, these additional commands he had to give to the apostles that Jesus told them about in the upper room, they were going to be given through the

Holy Spirit, if that makes sense. So, like, just understanding, you know, that, and then you combine that with something like Hebrews 1, right?

Long ago, and many times in many ways, Jesus spoke to the prophets, but in the last days he spoke to the Son, whom he's appointed the heir of all things.

So, when you think about what's happening, like, from a standpoint of revelation, the revelation of Christ is like the pinnacle –

I mean, it's the pinnacle of revelation, and it came in two phases. So, it came during Jesus' earthly ministry.

That's what the Gospels are. It's a record of Jesus', you know, all that Jesus did and taught before he was taken up. And then it came in his, you know, post -ascension ministry through the

Holy Spirit to the apostles. So, after he had given commands to the apostles by the Holy Spirit whom he had chosen.

And so, he, you know, he performed the signs of apostles, you know, or he gave his apostles signs and wonders to perform to validate them as apostles.

And Paul talks about that he performed these signs of an apostle among everyone to show that Jesus had chosen him.

And so, you know, afterwards God gave commands to these apostles, and New Testament letters are just a record of these commands that he has given to the apostles.

So, you know, 2 Peter 3 .14, you know, Peter says of Paul, Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him – that was 15 – as he does in all of his letters.

So, Paul wrote according to the wisdom given – that's just a reference to the Holy Spirit, you know, at work within him – as he does in all of his letters when he speaks of them and of these matters.

There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction.

And then he says, as they do with the other scriptures, right? So, like, the idea is, like, yes,

I mean, that's a complicated – I mean, it's not a – conceptually that's not a hard argument, but it takes someone paying attention and reading the

Bible and trying to figure out how revelation came, right? And so, you know, like, the revelation of Christ is a pinnacle of revelation that came in two phases, you know, through Jesus during his earthly ministry, and then in his post -ascension ministry through the apostles whom are given with the task of producing the rest of the scriptures, which are obviously just like letters to the churches to tell, you know, the church what

God's expectations are for them. So, I mean, that's the simple answer, right?

But then most people who are asking that kind of question, they're not going to be able to think that comprehensively about what's happening in the

New Testament. Does that make sense? Pete Yeah, yeah, it does. Jared Yeah, so all that they're doing is they're just trying to say, hey, shut up, right?

Pete Yeah. Jared And then if they're not going to let you, like, the issue is they're not going to let you sit there and explain two -minute, like, a two -minute explanation of how scripture is speaking to what it's doing, you know?

And, I mean, but like, the issue is like, you know, Jesus says, my sheep hear my words and they follow me.

So, you know, scripture validates scripture and, you know, God's sheep, they hear his voice, they follow him.

And like, it's not really hard to understand the argument I just made. It's just, you know, you're probably not going to get very far with the kind of person who's making that kind of argument because they're not really interested in truth.

They're just interested in, you know, making it muddy, essentially. Okay. Fair enough.

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