Ordination and Eldership: Revealed Apologetics Discussion with Eli Ayala

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Welcome back to another episode of Revealed Apologetics. I'm your host, Eli Ayala, and today

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I have another guest with me. So this guest that I'm going to be having on with me is a very good friend of mine.

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He's been a good friend for many years and we have spoken together at apologetics conferences and he is an awesome friend.

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Let's just say this individual that I'm about to introduce was one of the people when I started

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Revealed Apologetics, he encouraged me and really kind of just, you know, said,

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Hey, I know God is going to use you. And he gave me really that, that boost and encouragement that a brother in Christ would give.

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Right. And I really just appreciated his, his friendship and just many conversations that we've had, whether it's on theology or apologetics, this guy is the real deal.

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He is an awesome apologist. He is an excellent teacher. He's got a way to really simplify complicated topics.

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So every time I listen to him explain something, I'm like, Hmm, I should have said that, bro.

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You know, he's got the, he's the acronym king. He makes acronyms to help people remember things.

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And it's just so stinking helpful. So I am very, very excited to have my friend and fellow apologist and now elder slash pastor.

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He'll kind of explain that the title of this episode is, you know, an elder gets grilled.

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I want to, he's going to explain to you what that's all about. And hopefully we can draw some important and useful elements from his experience so that hopefully the body of Christ can be benefited from it.

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So, but before we do that, I want to kind of throw this out and I'll kind of remind people throughout the, the episode, if you're looking to support

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Revealed Apologetics, it would be greatly appreciated. And you can do so by checking out this upcoming conference that I will be hosting.

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We, we hosted the Epic online pre sub conference, which did really well. We had a bunch of people sign up and each of the speakers really brought their a game.

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And for those who missed that, you can actually still purchase at a reduced price, purchase that conference on the website, revealedapologetics .com.

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You can go to a pre sub you, and you could purchase those recordings. It comes along with the

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PowerPoint presentations and the notes that each of the speakers brought. But this conference, the

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Epic online Calvinism conference, I'm super excited about this one. I've got James White, I've got

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Guillaume Bignon, I've got Saiten Bruggenkade and Scott Christensen and myself, and we're going to be covering a wide range of issues relating to Calvinism just to give you a taste.

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Okay. I will post this later, but my topic is undecided. I'm still working through a topic that I will be presenting.

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It's going to be on January 21st. Okay. From 10 AM to 4 30 PM. It's going to be an all day thing.

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Dr. White is going to be presenting on some key passages relevant to defending the Calvinist position.

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Dr. Guillaume Bignon is going to be explaining the proper use of analogies.

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So when people bring up analogies against the Calvinist position, Guillaume is going to help us navigate how to respond to analogies that are not being used appropriately.

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I think that's a really important topic to kind of get a grasp on. So that's going to be exciting.

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I'm really excited for that. Scott Christensen is going to be bringing a talk entitled in defense of compatibilism.

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So we'll get some discussions on free will and things like that. And what is a good old

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Calvinist defense of a compatibilist position. And Saiten Bruggenkade is going to be presenting on Calvinism from, you know, street

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Calvinism. You know, how do we talk about reformed theology on the street level within the context of evangelism and things like that?

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So I'm super excited about those topics. I may, I'm kind of juggling.

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I may talk about Calvinism and Molinism or something related to anything along those lines.

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And so I'm super excited. So if you're looking to support Revealed Apologetics, one of the best ways you could do that is sign up for this conference right now.

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It's available to RSVP on revealedapologetics .com. Click on the precept you menu and you could

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RSVP for that conference on January 21st, 2023. That's so weird to think about.

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We're already coming up to the new year. So without, uh, with that out of the way, um, I'd like to introduce my good friend,

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Anthony Eugenio. How are you doing brother? I'm doing well, pal. Thank you so much for having me.

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And I'm just hoping that I can live up to your, your, your little introduction to me.

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That's always awkward. He's a great guy and he explains things really well. And then after the show is like, that guy was really weird and I couldn't understand anything he said.

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I'm sure no one's going to say that, but, um, so let's jump right in. Okay. So you got grilled recently, uh, and you had to go through this long exam in which you had to stand before, uh, you know, the

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Sanhedrin, no, I'm just kidding. You had to stand before a bunch of pastors and leaders and answer their doctrinal, uh, questions.

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So, um, why don't you unpack that for us? What's the context for that? What was the exam about? What are you doing now in light of the fact that we assume that you passed?

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Okay. Uh, why don't you explain that for us? Sure. So, uh, to be an elder, uh, in our church, anyway, you need to be examined by, by your peers.

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Uh, and they're going to test you to make sure that you understand what biblical doctrine is, uh, that you don't hold any heretical views and they're going to pressure.

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They're going to ask you questions that are going to, that are going to be more, uh, more challenging than a, than a normal conversation because they want to make sure that you are equipped to handle the office.

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I mean, we, we need to have strong biblical elders, uh, governing over the churches because we're the ones who teach the flock.

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We guard the flock, you know, and an elder's job is to lead, feed, correct, and protect. So how can

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I lead the congregation if I don't know sound theology? How can I protect them from false teachers if I don't know what false teaching is?

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So it's real important that an elder have a well -rounded understanding of all topics in theology.

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You don't have to be an expert. I mean, it helps, obviously, but you want to make sure that you're well -versed in all of these things so that you can give an answer for the hope that lies within you with gentleness and respect.

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Right. That's awesome. Well, you kind of just made me think of, I'm looking for a passage here, Jeremiah chapter nine, verse 20.

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I'm going to do it old fashioned way. Usually I use my phone or it's a screen. I'm going to read my Bible here. My, my nifty, uh,

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John MacArthur study Bible. I have to skip over the dispensationalism. So I have to make sure

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I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Okay. So Jeremiah chapter nine, verse 23.

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Okay. I typically use this verse, Anthony, when people ask like, well, why, why is theology so important?

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Why is doctrine so important? Um, and I want to share this with folks here. So Jeremiah chapter nine, verse 23 says the following.

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It says, thus says the Lord. And I want you to listen to this listeners. Okay. God is speaking here, right? Uh, through Jeremiah, thus says the

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Lord, let not the wise man boast of his wisdom. Let not the mighty man boast of his might. Let not the rich man boast of his riches, but let him who boasts boast of this.

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Okay. Uh, God is telling us now there is something worthy of boasting about that he understands and knows me that I am the

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Lord who exercises loving kindness, justice, and righteousness on the earth for I delight in these things declares the

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Lord. God delights in the fact that we know and understand. And of course,

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Anthony, that involves not just the mental capacity to know like propositions about God, but also to know

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God relationally. So why is theology important? Because God delights in our knowing him, knowing him and knowing him right relationship.

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Right. And I think that's so important. What role does theology play in your personal life?

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How does doctrine in general impact how you live your life, Anthony? Well, Paul tells

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Timothy to watch your life and your doctrine closely. Uh, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your heroes, right?

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That's, that's really a heavy verse to watch your life and your doctrine closely.

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He puts those two things side by side, such that if your doctrine is off, your life is going to be off, right?

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So, you know, we, we, we've talked about this before. Our job is to think God's thoughts after him.

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He's the author of life. He's the, the creator of the universe. He's the one who set up the parameters.

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What better way to live life than by using the principles that God's given us to live life correctly.

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Um, the book of Proverbs, my, my, my pastor says Proverbs is, um, basically how to live life skillfully.

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So how to live a life with skill, you'll, you'll look through the Proverbs and you read those and the wisdom that you glean from that just helps you in everyday ordinary life.

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I mean, again, this is when we, when we recognize what the Bible actually is, it's

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God breathed, it's divine in nature. And he's given that to us. We have everything we need for life and godliness in the scriptures.

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My goodness, what a tremendous advantage over unbelievers or people who reject the scriptures to live a life that, uh, that is according to the author of life.

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Right. Right. So I don't remember where I read it. It might've been in a textbook that I had to read when I was in seminary, but it was talking about different ways of doing apologetics.

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And you have like historical apologetics, philosophical apologetics, scientific apologetics. Um, and then there was one section called incarnational apologetics incarnational in, in the flesh, you are defending the faith in the flesh, in the manner in which you live.

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And sometimes that is just as, or even more powerful than rational argument when you're able to kind of, uh, show existentially through like the way you live your life, how

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Christ has transformed you. And so I think that's a, a powerful, uh, tool for defending the faith, as well as just being obedient to the

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Lord, right. Demonstrating our love for him. So, uh, super, super important now. Okay. Um, now the super cool thing about all of this, you grilled in this, this kind of this exam, this, uh, grill fest where they just asked you a bunch of questions.

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And the reason why I wanted to have you on, because I know we primarily focus on apologetics here, even though it was a test for ordination, everything they asked you, everything had apologetic import.

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Sure. And so they started right where they should have started asking you questions about bibliology.

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Now, can you define for us what bibliology is and why it's important to have a proper bibliology?

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Bibliology would basically be a study of the scriptures. You know, what is the

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Bible? Uh, what books are contained in the Bible? Why is it that the Bible is, is our standard, like you and I would hold to sola scriptura.

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We would recognize that the scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith. It doesn't mean that the scripture is the only authority, like we have pastors and teachers and evangelists, but pastors, teachers, and evangelists are human beings stained by sin.

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So they're not infallible since the scripture is breathed out by God. Second Timothy three, 16, all scriptures,

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God breathed and useful for teaching through proof, correction, and the training and righteousness that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

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That is the basis for everything that we teach and know. So if, if we're going to live lives and think

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God's thoughts after him, he's given us his thoughts in scripturated. So the

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Bible contains God's words. It contains everything that he wants us to know. Jesus says, sanctify them by your truth.

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Your word is truth, right? So the word sanctifies us as we read it. It corrects our crooked thinking such that we can think the way

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God wants us to think and live lives that magnify and glorify him. So everything starts on with the scriptures.

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The church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. So the church holds the scriptures up as the rule of faith.

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The church didn't give us the scriptures. The scriptures gave us the church. We have to recognize that authority scheme.

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Sorry, Catholics. Yeah. Look, if, if, if you think that the church gave us this, the scriptures, now

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God used the church to bring the scriptures to us, of course, but the word of God says itself that God's word is settled in the heavens forever.

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The scriptures come top down, not bottom up. So when we recognize that you have in your hand, a divine instrument, breathe out by God, Oh my goodness.

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That in and of itself is, is worthy of awe. So, and, and Moses would tell us in Deuteronomy eight three, man cannot live by bread alone, but by every word out of the mouth of God, not just some of the words, every word.

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That's why Paul labors in the book of Acts to say, I taught you the whole counsel of God. There's not one word that God uttered in the scriptures that is unimportant.

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Every single word is important such that we eat them. We can, we can't live just by food.

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We need to ingest and take God's word in every single day. If you keep going, Anthony, we're going to have to collect the offering.

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They're like, you're preaching there. That's good stuff. Whatever, whatever's going to help you.

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That's right. We're going to collect the offering. We'll ask a sister. So -and -so to sing a song, a special.

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Now that's awesome. So there are a lot, a lot of things that you said there. Again, everything that you just said is apologetically relevant, understanding the nature and role of scripture.

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What is the role of scripture in terms of its authority? What is the nature of that authority? And then I have a follow -up question here.

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Now, now as presuppositionalist, I think that question, this question is very relevant for those who are listening and are saying, Hey, I'm trying to get a firm grasp on presuppositional apologetics, whatever.

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Understanding the role of the authority of scripture is vital. Can you unpack that for us? What does it mean to say that the scriptures are authoritative?

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It means that the scriptures are what God wanted to convey to us infallibly, right, without error, such that we can live lives that magnify and glorify him.

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So if, if God, if this Bible is God's word, which I believe it is, every single one of those words are perfect.

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They are exactly what we need in order to live lives, again, to glorify

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God, to love God with all our hearts, all mind and strength and love our neighbor as ourself. So the scriptures have to take precedent over any other authority because every other authority must be subservient to God.

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When we say that, that, that scriptures are God breathed, that's the Greek word, right?

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They're inspired or inspired really isn't the right word. It's expired. But when you say God's word expired, people think,

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Oh, it's old, but you know, like milk expired by expired by, and then it has a date, you know?

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So God's truth never expires. God's truth is true. No matter when it's, there is no expiration date on truth.

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So the scriptures are our divine authority because in it, he's given us everything we need for life and godliness.

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So that has to be the supreme authority because there's no human authority that can be as perfect as the scriptures.

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Yeah. Okay. So, so now this is relevant. I guess I said to apologetics, I mean, some people might disagree with this.

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I think both of us are in agreement. Catholics, for example, are objects of evangelism.

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So when someone converts to Catholicism, we don't be like, okay, it's just another denomination. Actually, there's some core differences between what we would call biblical

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Christianity and you know, a presentation of a gospel that doesn't save. And so I have no qualms about saying that.

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I know that's kind of controversial these days. But when we talk to Catholics, the issue of authority comes up often.

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And so we are, we're often attacked on our stance as reformed Protestants on, on solo scriptura.

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So if someone says, well, how do you know solo scriptura is true? Um, and how do you know that, you know, you have the right books of the

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Bible in your Bible, you know, the Catholic church gave you those things, right. There's something along those lines. I'm kind of being, uh, you know, lazy here.

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I'm kind of just throwing it out there that folks know where I'm coming from. When we defend the books of the

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Bible as being the Canon that we should have, the Catholic will be quick to point out as soon as you appeal to church history, wait a minute, you see, you need the tradition to know what scripture is.

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Okay. And so they will point to the fact that because we point outside of the Bible evidence for a particular

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Bible belonging in the Canon, they'll say, see, you don't follow your own principle of solo scriptura.

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How would you interact with something like that? Cause that's, that's an apologetic issue because Catholic is questioning the very nature of our understanding of the authority of scripture, the role of say external evidence in support of biblical books and things like that.

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How would you engage in that? Sure. I would use the illustration that Michael Kruger uses. And I loved it.

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Uh, when I, when I first heard him talk about it, he says, knowing what the scriptures are is basically like a thermostat.

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Okay. When you look at the thermostat, the thermostat will tell you what the temperature in the room is.

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Okay. So it's, if I look at the thermostat, it says 68 degrees. I know that 68 degrees in the room. Now I could also hit the buttons and set the thermostat for 71 degrees.

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Right? So how does that relate to the scriptures? Well, the thermostat is like a thermometer.

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It tells you what the temperature of the room is. In other words, you read the thermometer and you recognize that the temperature in the room is 68 degrees.

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The church, uh, let's say in Roman Catholicism, they would say the church tells us what the scriptures are.

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So they dialed up 71 degrees and says, okay, now this is what the scriptures are. So I see

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God giving the scriptures to his church and the church like a thermometer recognizing what the scriptures were not defined, not, not making them scripture.

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God gives us the scripture. God's body, his church recognizes what, what his scripture is and gives it out to, to the rest of the people.

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Same way that the old Testament Jews recognized what scripture was without having a

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Pope and all this ecclesiastical authority that the Roman Catholic church has. Right.

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Excellent. Well, cool. Again, I hope people see that that's, that's apologetically relevant, right? To understand how we got the

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Bible, uh, the role of the authority of the Bible and how that, but by the way, the authority of the

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Bible even allows for us to appeal to, uh, external evidences for its own, its own, uh, um,

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I don't wanna say validity. I mean, the Bible is self -attesting, but you get what I'm saying. There's nothing, there's nothing against the content of the

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Sola Scriptura by appealing to sources outside the Bible to support or give evidence for why a particular book, uh, is, is to be canon, uh, if that makes sense.

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Right. Absolutely. And it's, it's, it's not that you, you can't appeal to, um, uh, churches that recognize and other authorities that recognize that these were the scriptures.

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Yeah. We just recognize that those authorities are not infallible. Right. They could, they could make mistakes and has,

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I don't, I don't think there's, there's one early church father that hasn't, they, they don't have unanimity.

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That's for sure. Right. Right. Right. They're all over the place. They look much like the Protestant church, but they're united on the essentials, right?

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So we look at the essentials and say, wow, this, this is the core basis for Christianity and non -essentials and things they differed on that.

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I think we have room to differ on. So when you were being asked these questions, what, in your opinion, when you were, when they were talking about kind of the, your views on the

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Bible, what was the hardest question that they asked? If you remember kind of like, Oh, you know, cause you don't know what they're going to ask.

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You're kind of just being grilled. You literally are, when you're being tested a living embodiment of first Peter through 15, where you have to always be ready.

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You literally have to repair in the sense that you're ready to respond to whatever they might ask you.

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And sometimes they can throw curve balls. Was there any curve ball question with respect to the authority of scripture that when they asked you were kind of like,

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Oh my God, I really think about that one. There weren't any curve ball questions, but what, what you're allowed to do before you go before the ordination council, you have to write an ordination paper and you go through, you go through 10 topics and one of them is bibliology.

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So, and you're allowed to quote other sources. So I had quoted Wayne Grudem in his systematic theology showing that the early church,

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Jerome, Athanasius, and even Josephus had the 39 books of the old

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Testament. Um, so one of the questions to me was, and cause I also cited that in 386 in the council of Carthage, they codified the, the, um, the books of the

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Bible as, as the 66 that we have today. So he wanted to know, was it the church that gave us the scriptures?

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Like, is that the reason we know that those are the scriptures? And I said, no.

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And I used the Michael Kruger illustration to show that God reveals his scriptures to us.

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And the church acts like a thermometer in recognizing the divine origin of the scriptures.

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It doesn't make the scriptures divine. Right. Now you mentioned Michael Kruger. I've had Michael Kruger on the show.

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So if anyone's like, who's Michael Kruger, who's this guy he's quoting, he is the author of this excellent book, the Canon Revisited.

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He is an excellent resource on issues of like the Canon and why I highly recommend him is not only as an expert, he really comes at this question from a presuppositional and theological perspective.

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So, um, it's very interesting to kind of see him come at like the question of history and theology and the development of Canon from kind of that like presuppositional approach.

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So I, I highly recommend, uh, this book that's, uh, I'm sure that's the book you're referring to, but he's maybe another one.

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He's got a couple of them. So I highly recommend that. All right. So, um, when we talk about the authority of scripture, we often refer to the scripture as self -attesting.

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Uh, can you unpack for us what that means and why is it important to understand the Bible in that way?

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Right. Well, uh, in, uh, second, second Corinthians two 14, it says the things of the spirit are spiritually discerned.

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The man in the flesh cannot know them. And right before that, it says we've received the spirit of God so that we can understand freely the things that God has given to us.

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Okay. So, um, a man apart from the spirit of God is going to read these words and it's just going to be words to him.

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It's going to be words on a page, basically information for those who have the spirit of God.

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Now we're talking about revelation. There's a big difference between revelation and information. So when the spirit of God lives inside of you and you're reading the scriptures and all of a sudden it could be a scripture that you've read a hundred times on the hundred and first time, all of a sudden opens an understanding to you and starts connecting dots that you never saw before.

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And man, things, things come to, you know, come to gel together and you start understanding on a deeper level.

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Again, the spirit of God within us testifies to us that this is the very word of God because it changes.

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Once you start applying the scriptures to your life in the way you live and the way you treat other people and in the way you worship

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God and see in apologetic sense, how the necessity of the triune

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God, uh, to, to, to solve the problem of the one in the many, oh my goodness, you start to, to really love

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God all the more because you recognize that the scriptures are not human in origin, but divine.

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Yeah. Yeah. I think that's great that you mentioned that too, that makes us stand more in awe of God. I think the study of theology, we need to be very careful, especially us who are in apologetics.

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We tend to be very intellectual and we lose, we kind of become desensitized to the fact that we're handling like God's word.

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Like we're talking about like the nature and the workings of the almighty creator.

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And so I, I hope that the folks who are studying apologetics and theology, like you'd never lose that sense of awe with what you're dealing with when you're studying things of God.

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So I think that's a, that's a good reminder of that. Um, you've said many times the best book to read on apologetics is the scriptures.

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Yeah. And that's not, and that's not just being sanctimonious. Oh, it's the scriptures. It literally is the best book to read.

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Every apologist that writes a book is fallible, right? They're going to make mistakes and, and, and, and what are they doing?

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They're interpreting God's words and trying to explain them to us in a way that we can understand. Uh, and, and that's great.

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We need, we need guys to continue to do that. And I love reading these books because they help. Uh, but when you go right to the source, to the scriptures, and you've got the

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Holy Spirit inside of you, oh my goodness, you now are able to speak with authority because God gave you those words, right?

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So that we can know with certainty, the things that he's revealed to us because why he's omniscient, right?

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Whereas the apologetic author who writes something doesn't have all knowledge. We can trust and have certainty once, when the words come from God, because God's omniscient.

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So when he reveals something to us, it's, it's impossible for it to be wrong. Yeah. Excellent. Very good.

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Okay. So they grilled you on bibliology. Obviously that's foundational because you wouldn't know anything about God, unless God revealed himself.

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Right? So we start, we start with divine revelation, God's own self -disclosure. You either wasn't mentioned of kind of like a natural revelation and special revelation.

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Um, and I think they asked you a question relating to the importance. How do you understand the importance and the role of natural revelation?

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Why don't you unpack how you answered that question? Why is natural revelation important? What is its function? What does it do?

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Uh, why is it important for us to be familiar with, uh, what natural revelation is all about? Well, like you said many times before,

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God is the father of all facts, right? So any fact that comes to us from, from nature, uh, the heavens declare the glory of God, the firmament, the work of his hands day after day, they pour forth speech night after night, they bring forth knowledge.

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So the universe is speaking to us on a daily basis, right? And everything in the universe is created by God and in some way, shape or form reflects the nature of God to us so that you can, you can look at it.

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Um, you can look at the vastness of the universe and say, Oh my, and just be in awe of how big it is.

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And what does that point you to the vastness of God? Like he has no end.

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How, when you realize just how big the universe is, you realize that God's bigger, that should make you more in awe.

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And then when you see, um, the, the, the DNA that we have in our bodies and you recognize that that's a code, you recognize that the universe was created with intelligence behind it.

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Whoa, Anthony, Anthony, you're a presuppositionalist, right? Yeah. Why are you talking about all this evidence?

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You're not supposed to do that. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm talking about the DNA and complexity.

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Presuppositionalists aren't allowed to talk about teleology. I'm just kidding. By what standard are you saying? By what standard?

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No, that, that's, that's excellent stuff. Now I wanted to mention something because we had spoken about it over the phone.

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Uh, I think it's important for people to know the difference between natural revelation and natural theology. They're very different things.

28:31

I don't know if you remembered what I said. Do you think you can unpack the difference for us? Since I could,

28:37

I could just blab what I think, but why don't you give us the, uh, the important distinction between natural theology and natural revelation?

28:43

Cause they're not the same. Right. And the way you explained it was perfect and I'm glad that you did. So natural revelation comes from top down, right?

28:52

This is God revealing, uh, us himself to us such that we can understand his divine nature and eternal power, right?

29:02

We see that through the creation. Um, uh, natural theology is using nature to reason up to the existence of God, to know who he is.

29:13

I don't think through natural theology, we can understand and know the triune God.

29:19

Um, in fact, John says at the end of his, uh, uh, gospel, these things are written so that you may know that, that this believe and trust in the son of God that you may have eternal life.

29:30

We need the scriptures to know who God is specifically. In fact,

29:36

God sends Jesus into the world in John chapter one to exegete the father, to reveal the father to us.

29:43

Matthew 11, 27, no one knows the father except the son and no one knows the son except the father and anyone to whom the son chooses to reveal him.

29:51

So, and we go back to, to Peter's confession. Jesus said, who do you say

29:57

I am? Peter says, thou art the Christ, the son of the living God. Jesus blesses them and says, flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my father in heaven.

30:05

So knowing God personally comes through revelation, not information.

30:11

It's a divine transaction that's necessary for eternal life, right?

30:16

No one can see, understand, know the kingdom of God unless he's born again.

30:22

So without spiritual eyes, you're going to look at the world, you're going to come, you're going to, you can, you can discern and be held with without excuse that God exists, but you can't know in an intimate way who this

30:35

God is. You need to know him revelationally. Yeah, there, there are different ways of knowing, right?

30:41

You know, I ask my students sometimes, does, is God all knowing? And they'll say, yes. And does God know everyone?

30:46

And they'll say, yes. I'm like, really? So let's take a look in the scriptures. It says on judgment day,

30:52

Jesus will say to those on his right, well done, good and faithful servant entered to the kingdom that has been prepared, prepared, prepared for you from before the foundation of the world.

30:59

And to those on his left, he'll say, get away from me. I never knew you. So here's a question class. How does the all knowing son of God who knows all things can, how can he, how can he meaningfully say, get away from me?

31:10

I never knew you. And there is that, I think you captured it. Well, there's that important difference of the different senses in which one can know.

31:18

You could know, and you could know relationally. You have this Hebrew concept of, of Yadah, right?

31:24

That Adam, Yadah, his wife, right? Adam knew his wife and she became pregnant. That's not intellectual knowledge.

31:29

Like, Oh, she's my wife. And all of a sudden, all my water broke. That's not how it works. Right. You know, that sounds like something that happened in Jerry Lewis movie.

31:36

Oh my goodness, lady and water broke. You know, it's not like that. Right. To know entails this kind of infinite, this intimate relationship.

31:44

And I think that's such an important thing that we need to have together with our study. Our study must be to the end that we know him more.

31:51

Right. And Jesus says, this is an eternal life to know the one and only one God, the only true God and the son and his son, whom he has sent.

31:58

So I think that's very important. Yeah. In fact, I think it's in, in the book of Amos, God says, speaking about Israel, you only have,

32:05

I know from all the nations of the world, there's this intimate Chesed covenantal love that God has for his people, where he knows them on an intimate basis.

32:17

Basically the same way Jesus says, love your wife. Like Christ loved the church and gave himself for her.

32:23

Now there's other women in my, in my life, besides my wife that I love, but there's a special certain covenantal love that I have for my wife that I don't have for the rest of the women in congregation.

32:33

I mean, I better not. Right. So there's a certain special love that God has for his people, for his covenant bride that he doesn't have for the rest of the world.

32:43

That's why it's important to be in covenant and know God personally through the power of the spirit.

32:50

And the only way you could do that is being born, born of the Holy spirit. You're talking about love, you know, it's like, all right,

32:56

God is love. We all know this. Uh, how is, uh, they're a little curveball here, but it's not too much of a curveball.

33:02

Uh, I don't play baseball. So, uh, my current won't be pretty weak, but, um, uh, what role or why is it important to know about the love of God within the context of apologetics?

33:14

Cause it does come up, right? Is it not the case that, that the attribute of God's love is often attacked in apologetics?

33:20

How is understanding the biblical conception of the love of God relevant to the defense of the faith in your opinion?

33:27

Okay. God loves people so much that he hates murder. God loves marriage so much that he hates divorce, right?

33:35

There's always that, that I called it a flip side. In fact, in the ordination, I called it the flip side.

33:40

And one of the, one of the pastors took issue. He's like, what do you mean? That's the opposite. You're not saying that's the opposite. I said, no, no, no, no.

33:47

So God loves people, right? Murder would be the antithesis of that.

33:53

So he hates murder, right? When you go to first Corinthians 13, love does not rejoice with wrongdoing, right?

34:01

So although there's a, there's a general love that God has for all mankind, he loves human beings.

34:08

Therefore, if you murder a human being, you're, you're, you're attacking an image bearer of God.

34:14

You're, you are attacking his creation. And in the old Testament, it says an eye for an eye, right?

34:19

You, if you take a life, you're going to owe your life. So love, most people watch romantic comedies and they think that's what love is.

34:29

Unfortunately, that's not what love is. You know, love. And this was a question that one of the guys asked me, and I think you really need to understand what is the biblical definition of love.

34:39

So now we can go to first Corinthians 13 and say, love is patient. Love is kind. You know, we could do that, but that, and that obviously captures the essence of what love is about.

34:50

Love is giving yourself over to someone else for their benefit. It's other centeredness.

34:57

Other center, right? There's no greater love than this, than a minute that a man laid down his life for his friend. Exactly. So love says, what can

35:04

I do for you? Whereas lust says, what can you do for me? Right.

35:09

I told you guys, he's really good at explaining. That was a really good way of differentiating just in case.

35:15

I just repeat really well. The things that I've been taught, I have no original thoughts and to God be the glory, wherever this stuff comes.

35:24

You have, you have original acronyms. I wish people knew what I was talking about. You got some really pretty good, pretty good acronym.

35:30

So, so the love of God is an important doctrine, just as understanding various aspects of who God is. Again, it helps us in knowing him more, but it's also helpful because in Jew chapter one, verse three, it says we're to contend earnestly with the faith once for all delivered.

35:43

Well, what are we defending? There's a faith once for all delivered. There's a body of Christian truth that entails doctrine, ideas about God and how they fit together and how they make sense.

35:53

And understanding doctrine is so important to defending the faith and doing what you have been ordained to do, which is function as an elder and a minister in the house of God.

36:03

So I think that's, that's important. Now I want to move away from we talked about bibliology and the authority of scripture and all these important kind of foundational issues.

36:11

But did you want to expand on something? I just want to add one more thing with regard. I think it's, it's, it pertains to theology and understanding how

36:21

God loves people. So there's another doctrine that we hold to called divine impassibility.

36:27

Okay. God is without passions. All right. I want you to, I want to stop there because my next section was to now move from bibliology to theology.

36:38

Oh, okay. So I wanted to kind of transition because the questions that they grilled you on, on bibliology, I think you answered excellent.

36:44

Uh, but, and, and sometimes it can be difficult. There are issues of like canon and the history and the theology behind that.

36:52

And my sheep hear my voice. And there, there's some difficult concepts there, but things get really hairy when you start talking about the doctrine of God, because there are some really debated issues and a lot of misunderstandings on certain doctrines that really have an impact on all of our other beliefs.

37:07

And this is the nature of theology, right? What you believe in one area is going to in effect, affect what we believe about other things.

37:14

So, so I want to move from the doctrine of the scriptures to the doctrine of God. Okay. They asked you a bunch of, um, theological questions with respect to the nature of God.

37:24

Uh, what were some of the things that they asked you about, and maybe we can kind of unpack your responses and why it's important.

37:31

Sure. One of the things they wanted to know, uh, was about the nature of God. Uh, because I started off by saying that God is good and good is upright.

37:39

Good and upright is the Lord. Therefore instruct sinners in his ways. The Lord is good, a stronghold for those who take refuge in him.

37:45

The Lord is good, is steadfast love, endures forever. Everything that God does is good.

37:51

So when you understand the goodness of God and everything he does is righteous and pure and true, that's going to affect your relationship with him such that, especially as Christians who sometimes have to experience suffering, what does

38:08

David say? He said, it was good that you afflicted me. No Christian says that today, right?

38:15

I mean, people are running away from suffering and obviously it's painful. You don't want to go through suffering, but there is some suffering that we go through that actually helps us to draw closer to God.

38:26

I think it was John Piper who said, um, no one ever grows in the mountaintop experiences.

38:34

It's always when you're walking through the Valley that you draw closer to God because, because you recognize your need for him.

38:42

If you don't recognize your need for him, which usually comes through suffering, you, you get into the situation like the judges, when

38:51

Israel was prosperous and doing well, they took their eyes off God. They loved the gift rather than the giver.

38:57

And God's like, no, no, no, no. Don't take your eyes off of me. And they're like, yeah, yeah, it's okay. We love the gift. God pulls the gift back.

39:04

And then they start to suffer and they, they set their eyes back on God again, because God is our greatest gift.

39:10

He's the thing. He's the only thing we need. Everything else that God gives us is a blessed benefit.

39:15

So when you recognize that suffering sometimes is part of God's plan, second

39:21

Peter says, if it's God's will for you to suffer, you know, you can do it righteously. You do it with your eyes fixed on God and you entrust your soul to a faithful creator who can, who can bring you through it.

39:34

Now you, now you are, you took an exam for, uh, ordination and you go to a reformed

39:41

Baptist church, a 1689. Am I correct? Yes. Yes. Okay. So, um, obviously some issues of, uh,

39:46

Calvinism and Calvinism understanding of say sovereignty comes up. Um, what did they ask you about God's sovereignty and how did you, how did you respond and why is that?

39:54

Why is the way in which you respond, uh, responded helpful and encouraging for Christians?

40:00

Um, they actually, they actually didn't ask me any questions with regards to God's sovereignty.

40:05

I went, you know, I touched on it, you know, with regard to God. Is it really a reformed Baptist church then?

40:11

I mean, well, it's so reformed that they know not even to ask that. That's right. You know, that's

40:19

God's, God's sovereignly in control of everything. Look, if God numbered the number of hairs on my head,

40:25

I mean, so he's got a lot more time to think about other things for me, you know, it doesn't really, it's not really hard to number the hairs on your head.

40:32

That's what I'm saying. He's got plenty of time to think about. I'm just kidding.

40:40

Don't worry. The verse that I go back to is it's, um, in Daniel chapter four.

40:47

And you want to talk about a book that drips of God's sovereignty. Nebuchadnezzar, an unbeliever finally comes to his senses and he says, all the inhabitants of the world are counted as nothing.

40:59

And he does as he pleases in the heavens and the earth and beneath the earth and none can stay his hand and say, what have you done?

41:07

So, you know, even, even, you know, Nebuchadnezzar who, um, who was, who was brought to his knees by God and, you know, full of hair rolling around in the grass recognizes this is a

41:18

God who's sovereign, who can do whatever he wants. Psalm 115. I asked, I asked the congregation this all the time.

41:26

What can God do? Whatever he pleases in the heavens and the earth and beneath the earth. God is in control of all things and he does whatever he pleases.

41:35

And that's an offense to, you know, depraved human hearts, because we want to be in control.

41:42

We want to do whatever we please. When I went through the omnis, you know, the, the omniscience, uh, the omnipresence, the omnipotence of God, all of those things are incommunicable attributes.

41:55

Those are, those are things that God does not share with us. Right. Um, yet those are all the things that the depraved heart craves.

42:02

We want, we want our knowledge. We want omni sapiens. We want all, you know, all wisdom. We want all power.

42:09

We want the but we're not God. So again, our hearts are, are, are, are wanting something that they can't have.

42:17

But when you're in relationship with God, you're in relationship with the one who does have them, who you can rely on and trust in who to bring you through things.

42:29

All right. So, uh, that's excellent. And, and I think you said something that I really liked when you did mention,

42:35

I don't know if they asked you a question about sovereignty, but you did make mention about the nature of sovereignty. It is the pillow upon which the believer lays his head.

42:43

What was that? I thought that was really cool. Uh, when you said that. Yeah. Again, I think,

42:49

I think that's a, I think that's a J .I. Packer quote. Okay. And I don't, I don't, I don't have any original quotes, acronyms.

42:55

Yes. Quotes. No. Um, but it's the pillow upon which you lay your head because you know, uh, if God's in control of all things, all things have a reason and a purpose behind them.

43:08

Even if I don't know why they happen, this, this here's a quote

43:14

I'll give you that I actually had in my last sermon. When, when I'm counseling somebody and somebody's going through a difficult situation,

43:21

I will tell them, I don't know why, but I do know who, right?

43:26

I know the who behind the why. And if the who is good, if the who is righteous and sovereign and loving and compassionate and long suffering,

43:38

I know the who behind the why. So the why becomes digestible because the who behind it is for me.

43:45

He is for me, not against me. So I know that all things work together for good. No one else except for God can promise that.

43:53

My mom tells me all the time, oh, and it's going to work out. Everything's going to work out. I'm like, ah, you can't make that promise.

43:59

You can't say that. Only God, only God can tell me that all things are going to work together for good because he's in charge of all things.

44:06

Excellent. Yeah. Um, and, um, it's very encouraging, especially as a, as a reform, as reformed

44:12

Christians. Right. And we have a particular understanding of God's sovereignty. It is, it is a great comfort, uh, because God is good.

44:18

Um, it's one, the goodness of God, uh, the belief that God is good is a presupposition of the Christian faith. I presuppose that he's the standard.

44:25

I don't judge him by another standard. He is the standard and he is self attestingly the standard. Why is

44:30

God good? Because he says so. And, uh, what he says, he says honestly, and it reflects who he is.

44:37

Um, so that's something that, in other words, God is good. He can't help it. There we go. He can't help it.

44:44

Right. Um, uh, you know, I mean, the attributes of God are so interesting. I tell my students, I want you to wrap your mind around this.

44:50

I, you know, I'm talking to my, I teach sixth grade Bible. I try to help them to stand in awe of the God they worship, uh, for God, there is no such thing as over there.

45:01

I mean, just, just think about that. Okay. When the Bible says, let me go down and see, that's not literally true.

45:10

God is everywhere. He can't help it. Right. Um, and so again, it's for the unbeliever, that's scary for the believer.

45:18

It's a great comfort, right? That God knows. Yep. Right. It's, it's interesting because even I think even believers sometimes misunderstand this because they say, well,

45:28

God's not in hell. And I say, well, um, God's wrath is being poured out on those people and it's in the presence of the lamb and his angels.

45:38

So, I mean, that's a, that's a tough thing to wrap your head around, but God is omnipresent. So what's absent, uh, in hell is

45:47

God's grace. Right. But what is present in, in hell is

45:53

God's justice. And God, I mean, God has to be present. That has to be present there.

45:58

Exactly. I think, I think the key difference too, is that his presence is not manifested in the same way that his presence is manifested and felt in heaven.

46:07

His presence is equally there, but the manner in which he manifests himself are very different. One manifestation is as judge, another manifestation is quite different.

46:16

Um, but he is there, right? Where can we run from his presence? Answer? Nowhere. You know, if you're playing a big game of cosmic hide and seek, hiding in hell will not hide you, right?

46:26

So, yeah. Because we're in Christ and he's absorbed God's wrath, we now can be spared that.

46:33

So the people who are not in Christ are going to, going to experience true justice and you know, all

46:40

God's attributes are perfect. So if it's, if it's, if you're experiencing

46:45

God's justice, it's loving justice. It's good justice. It's holy justice.

46:51

You can't start dividing those things and say, well, it's just, just, it's not this. It's, it's all of those things at the same time.

46:58

Right. Which leads me to my next question, because I know that there are some hot button topics in the Reformed world today, especially in Baptist circles.

47:05

I know Dr. James White has been in the middle of a lot of that. And that's with respect to the doctrine of divine simplicity.

47:12

How would, I know they asked you about this in the exam. What was the question they asked you? How do you define divine simplicity and why is this doctrine important?

47:20

And then maybe you can, if you're up on the issues, what's the big deal? What's going on in the Baptist, Reformed Baptist world with this issue of divine simplicity?

47:28

Right. So divine simplicity, it basically says that God is not composed of parts, right?

47:34

You don't have separate parts that are brought together to make God. You don't have a little bit of love here, a little bit of justice here, put them together, and now you have

47:43

God. And the way I answered that was, and he says, well, you know, why

47:49

I said, because if, if God was composed of parts, I would want to know who put those parts together, because I want,

47:56

I would want to worship that one who put the parts together, who created God, right? God wouldn't be the ultimate creator at that point.

48:04

There would be somebody behind God creating him. So God without parts is, is very important because he's not composite.

48:13

If he, if he had parts, he would be a contingent being, not a necessary being.

48:19

So he's a necessary being because everything has, it derives from his being.

48:25

He doesn't derive being from anything else. He is being, and I like the way

48:31

R .C. Sproul used to say it. He would say, and he would do it purposely.

48:37

He would say, God doesn't exist. And people are like, oh, R .C. Sproul said God doesn't exist.

48:42

And he would say, well, X means out of, is, is being. God doesn't come out of being.

48:50

God is being. So you don't say God exists. You say God is, right?

48:57

God is being, and in him, we live and move and have our being. God is being.

49:03

He's not becoming anything. He's not, there's no parts.

49:09

There's nothing behind God that makes God, God. He is right. He says, I am that I am.

49:15

Yeah, that's good stuff. I'm mentioning R .C. Sproul. I love R .C. Sproul. R .C. Sproul is an excellent teacher.

49:21

And I agree. I'm only kidding. I'm only kidding.

49:27

He's like, but for real though, he's totally bad. Actually, for those interested, if you don't know the, the

49:34

YouTube channel, Wise Disciple with Nate Sala, he does the debate teachers react. I will be appearing on that show on December 5th to actually comment on the debate between R .C.

49:47

Sproul and Greg Bonson over apologetic methodology. So as much as I love R .C., you know,

49:52

I come from a more critical perspective with respect to the apologetic issue. But if you guys are interested in that, that's December 5th.

49:58

I'm not sure if it's live. I know that's when we're recording, but when it's released, I'll let you guys know. Nate Sala's got a great

50:03

YouTube channel. You guys should totally check out his debate teacher reacts where he watches debates and reacts to them.

50:09

And it's just such an excellent way to learn how to think and evaluate different perspectives and to evaluate what makes a debate a good debate.

50:16

Okay. So I highly recommend if you have not subscribed to the Wise Disciple, you need to like click away real quick, subscribe to it and come back.

50:24

It's excellent. It's one of my favorite channels. It's growing very quickly. I think Nate is somewhere around 6 ,000 subscribers and it's growing and he's got a lot of great things to say.

50:35

And just real quick, I just want to give a shout out to people who have been following this channel. I have reached 6 ,008 subscribers.

50:42

So I've been doing this for two and a half years and that's pretty sweet. And I greatly appreciate everyone who's shown their support by subscribing, purchasing a course or signing up for a conference or whatever is just message me some encouraging message.

50:56

I even appreciate my critics. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and things like that.

51:02

Well, we're at 50 minutes right now. We're going to go 10 more minutes and then maybe take some questions. There's not a lot of questions here.

51:08

It's kind of late and everything, but we'll try to - I was grilled long enough. I was grilled long enough. No more questions.

51:13

No more. If there are some questions in the chat, we'll try to address some of them.

51:19

If there's not, that's okay as well. And just to get, oh, I forgot to say, okay, tomorrow, tomorrow is not tomorrow.

51:26

Sorry. Thursday, Thursday, I will be having Jeff Durbin of Apologia Church on the show to talk about presuppositionalism and the

51:35

Christian mind. And so you guys definitely want to be there, be here for that.

51:41

Bring your questions. We'll take questions towards the backend. That's going to be super exciting. So, okay.

51:48

Okay. That's it. So let's continue on. We got, I got you for 10 more minutes. As long as you need me, pal,

51:54

I'm here. So they talked about bibliology. They grilled you on the doctrine of God. What about issues of Christology?

52:01

Did they ask you about the doctrine of Christ, different heresies that have crept in the church, how you would respond to them?

52:07

How did you, what did they ask? And again, how is what they asked apologetically relevant? Sure. They asked with regards to the eternal subordination of the son.

52:19

So I was explaining to them that the son has always been the son, right?

52:26

In other words, if we had, if God, the father is eternal father, the term father necessitates son.

52:34

You can't be father without a son. So father and son have existed side by side for all eternity.

52:41

And my position is that they're co -powerful, co -equal, co -eternal, right? They're equal in every sense of the way.

52:50

The son does, when he comes, when he takes on flesh in the incarnation, does submit to God, the father, but he submits to him as a human being.

53:01

I don't believe that the son subordinates or submits to God in eternity past because they're co -equal.

53:09

They enter into covenant together. Okay. So, so would you say, so you would reject what is called eternal subordination?

53:16

Yes. And I know there's, there's some really good guys that hold it. Wayne Grudem. I forget who else, but there's some prominent guys who hold to that.

53:26

There was another question that, that I was asked, could Jesus have sinned?

53:33

Right. And my answer was, as a man, he could have, he had the capacity to sin.

53:41

Now the guys on the panel didn't press me on that. Although I know that they, they hold that.

53:47

It's called impeccability. Jesus is impeccable. He couldn't sin. And I had spoke to, you know, my co -elders afterwards and they had expressed to me that, you know, they hold to impeccability also.

54:02

And I started thinking, I'm like, again, I'm not smart enough to come up with these things on my own.

54:08

So I remembered hearing that from somewhere. So I looked, I looked around and I found

54:13

R .C. Sproul did not hold to divine impeccability. He said that it was possible for Jesus to sin in his humanity, but based on God's decree, he couldn't.

54:24

Yes. I think that's a key point because when we, when we start talking about these sorts of things, you need to delineate the way in which you mean what, you know, how is something, there are different ways in which something can be possible.

54:38

And the example that's often used Anthony is the bones of Jesus, the bones of Jesus. Excellent.

54:44

I didn't get to that part. Yeah. So why don't you explain to us, why don't you explain to us the bones of Jesus and how that relates to the different senses in which things can be possible and impossible in one sense and possible in another sense.

54:56

Sure. So Jesus, obviously as a human being had bones and having bones means that, you know, one of them could be broken.

55:03

You have the capacity to, to break a bone as a human being, but in God's decree and in his word, it was said that not one of his bones would be broken.

55:14

So according to God's decree, none of Jesus's bones would ever be broken yet.

55:19

They had the capacity to be broken. Okay. So the way I see it is

55:25

Jesus had the capacity to sin, but never would because of God's decree.

55:30

Okay. And because he came to fully submit to the will of God, the father. Now I also found out that it wasn't just R .C.

55:39

Sproul that held this view. It's Sinclair Ferguson that held this view. Joel Beakey holds this view.

55:47

Charles Hodge holds this view. There was, there was, there was five or six prominent reformed theologians that did not hold to the impeccability of Christ.

55:59

So I, I kind of felt better that I wasn't like walking in heresy, even though we can respectfully disagree about that.

56:06

I don't believe that Jesus sinned. I believe he was completely sinless. I think that would be an issue if I said, well,

56:13

Jesus did sin. Well, then we don't have a savior. So Jesus was completely sinless, but I believe that he did.

56:20

He, he, he was tempted in every way as we were, right.

56:26

Yet did not sin. Right. He was tempted and yet did not sin. I think it takes away the force of that verse.

56:33

If you say, well, he couldn't sin. Right. Then he wasn't tempted in every way we were in, in, in one sense.

56:42

Right. So I, I went back to again, what, what Sproul says with quoting

56:47

Martin Luther, posse pacari, posse non pacari, he was possible to sin, possible not to sin.

56:53

If Jesus is the second Adam, right. I would think he would be made the same way

56:58

Adam was, which is posse pacari possible to sin. Right. And posse non pacari possible to not sin.

57:06

So that's, that's the way. That's a, that's an interesting topic right there. That's a yeah.

57:12

So now, so in order to be ordained, you had to, you had to have your hands in a bunch of different things. You had to have a good general overview of basically just like systematic theology and doctrine.

57:22

Sure. Yeah. So, and a lot of prep I'm sure went into that. I for sure.

57:28

Yeah. Well, you know, I think, I think again we need to move back to a more biblical understanding of eldership and elders,

57:38

I think are there to shepherd the flock of God. They need to be tested and they need to be proven as true shepherds.

57:47

Unfortunately, I think, you know, in today's modern American church, some people are elders, they're shepherds who may not have been tested or tried.

57:57

And this is when you talk about the nature of God, this is where most of the heresies come into the church, right?

58:03

Heresies stem from inside the church, not outside the church. And it usually, it usually deals with the nature of God.

58:10

You know, was Jesus one person with two natures? Was he two people with one nature? You know, and you start hashing these things out.

58:18

Is he, is he little God like the Jehovah's witnesses believe? Is he a God in a multiplicity of God's like the

58:25

Mormons believe? So I think as a, as a, as a, as a shepherd of the sheep, a biblical elder, you need to know these things.

58:35

How are you going to guard your people, guard God's, not my people, but God's people from false teachers if you can't identify false teaching, right?

58:45

You need to know what truth is in order to identify false teaching to protect them from those false teachings.

58:53

And so that's so important. And I noticed I've, I've grown, I've grown up in churches my entire life.

58:58

I mean, my earliest memory has been in church. I mean, I was probably born under the pew somewhere in 1982,

59:04

July 30th, but it's, you don't often see, again, it depends what church you go to, right?

59:09

But a lot of churches across America, you don't often see theological sermons. A lot of sermons are very just like pragmatic, like practical, and that, and there's definitely a place for that for sure.

59:19

But there, there seems to be a doctrine is almost like something that's relegated to like the little classroom, right? So after we leave big church, there's like this other class, and then we can talk about theology and you could sign up for that.

59:28

Or you can sign up for, you know married couples with two children, you know, a small group with very specific, you know, theology isn't always kind of like a central focus, but I think it's important that orthodoxy, right?

59:44

Orthodoxy, right? Belief is the foundation for orthopraxy, right? Right? Action. And without that theological, see pragmatics, okay?

59:53

Flow out of, or grow out of the soil of doctrine. And so everything has to flow from that, from that bedrock.

59:59

And I think grilling you and asking all those questions, I think is an excellent way to equip a leader to be able to preach and shepherd from a foundation of doctrine, so that you're giving information, the pragmatic aspect, from a place that is contextualized in God's Word, and really brings us back to who

01:00:21

God is, what he said, how does his authority function and play a role in the problems of the people of the church, and what that looks like for them.

01:00:29

So, so yeah, I think it's excellent stuff. So Anthony, we're at the top of the hour. Would you like to say anything, any last words before we close things off and kind of,

01:00:38

I think there's maybe just one question, we'll tackle that. No, well, first of all, I just want to thank you for having me on.

01:00:45

It's truly an honor to be on your show. Those of you who follow Eli, I'm a big fan of his.

01:00:53

I think he is one of the guys on the internet that can have a respectful, congenial, compassionate conversation with somebody he disagrees with, and yet remain friends with them.

01:01:05

So I would recommend that you watch his show, you emulate how he deals with people who oppose his position.

01:01:13

And I would suggest, because I have a really, really good friend who is, he's a

01:01:20

Christian, but he's theologically opposed to my positions, and we love each other dearly.

01:01:25

And he really challenges me, and I challenge him. And it has been one of the greatest growing growth spurts for me, because he asks me questions with regards to Reformed theology.

01:01:39

And I'm so used to being in my little bubble that I don't get pressed. And he asks me questions, and it makes, it drives me back to the scriptures.

01:01:48

And it makes me give a better answer for what it is I believe and why. So I highly encourage you to interact with other people who oppose your views, because that's the way you're going to be tested, like in an ordination.

01:02:02

You're pressed such that now you have to start really thinking and unearthing and going back to the scripture and get through the finer points.

01:02:11

The best thing about it is, once you're tested in this way, 90 % of your other conversations when you're evangelizing and talking to family and friends are not even going to get to this level.

01:02:22

But you know that you could go there if necessary. So I would just strongly recommend people continue watching your show and the way you model how to love people who are in opposition to whatever view it is that we take.

01:02:36

And we as a church worldwide need to start working together, even through theological differences.

01:02:45

I don't care, Calvinism, Arminianism, pato -baptism, credo -baptism.

01:02:51

As the church of Jesus Christ, we can differ on those things, stay grounded on the essentials, and take dominion over the world that God's given us.

01:03:02

The enemy loves to divide us up, chop us up into these little parts, and render us ineffective. We need to be one as he is one, right?

01:03:10

And when we become one, we can start doing what God has called us to do. We should never, ever, ever be afraid of someone who doesn't know what a man or a woman is.

01:03:20

Ever. Ever. Okay? We have truth. We use truth to confront lies.

01:03:30

Just last week from the pulpit, I told people, you know, we're coming into the Christmas season, and you tell me what you think.

01:03:36

What is the most peaceful time of the year? The most peaceful time?

01:03:42

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Christmas is pretty violent with them sales in the stores.

01:03:48

Well, if you're home, and you don't go out to the stores, Christmas tends to be the most peaceful, joyous time of the year.

01:03:56

Okay. Yeah. Right? Okay. And the question is why? And I think the answer, one of the answers anyway, is because you have unbelievers who are singing hymns on a regular basis, praising

01:04:07

God without even knowing it. Worship matters. What you sing matters.

01:04:13

That's why it's so important to be in a healthy church that worships God in spirit and in truth, and has a vibrant prayer meeting.

01:04:21

Those are our strongest weapons against the enemy. Why is Christmas the most peaceful time of the year?

01:04:28

Because you have unbelievers singing, come, let us adore him. Joy to the world, the

01:04:33

Lord has come. They're singing these songs, and they don't even know who they're about.

01:04:39

And evangelism during the Christmas season has always been the most fruitful time for me, because their hearts are softened.

01:04:47

They're singing the hymns without knowing it, and God's working in their minds and hearts. It's an easy way to transition into evangelism.

01:04:57

Well, thank you very much for that. I appreciate it. And thank you for those kind words. I do appreciate that as well. You're worthy of them.

01:05:05

Well, thank you. Well, let's take the few questions here. Young Flav says, any book recommendations?

01:05:13

What is your best recommendation for someone who wants to get a good grasp on biblical theology and systematic theology?

01:05:19

Do you have any specific suggestions? There's two that I like.

01:05:24

I love Wayne Grudem's systematic theology, and I love John MacArthur's systematic theology.

01:05:31

Both of those are really, really good. I would say for eldership, the best book that I've ever come across is

01:05:43

Biblical Eldership by Alex Strauch. This book I read about three years ago, and I wish every person in the congregation would read it to understand what an elder is, why an elder is important, why we have a plurality of elders and not a single elder, why elders have to be tested, even though I wasn't looking forward to my grilling.

01:06:07

It was very, very much worthwhile because I was tested and proved worthy to hold the office.

01:06:14

So it helps your confidence, and it proves to the congregation that, yes, this is a person who's studied and not perfect by any stretch of the imagination and still have so much more learning and growth to do, but somebody who's competent enough to shepherd the flock and guard them from false teachers.

01:06:34

Right, excellent. I have here the Wayne Grudem systematic theology, the second edition, so a lot of people might be familiar with the blue book.

01:06:40

This is the newest one that came out. It's got extra chapters, extra sections. He's got sections on Molinism, I think

01:06:47

Theistic Evolution, so it's kind of an update. It's actually a worthy update if you're wondering like, huh, well, if he's got a new version out there, is it any different from the older one?

01:06:55

Well, yeah, it's got some extra stuff here. So good systematic theology. Again, you might not agree with everything.

01:07:00

He comes from a Calvinistic perspective. This is my favorite systematic theology, not because I agree with everything, but because it's written for the average person.

01:07:08

I mean, sure, you could read a Louis Burkhoff, but after you read Louis Burkhoff, you're going to be like, you know, your glass is going to be falling off.

01:07:14

You have like clear liquid coming out of your ears, right? You know, the other two things, the other two books that I would recommend people to go to on a more basic level is

01:07:28

R .C. Sproul's Everyone's a Theologian, and Essential Truths of the Christian Faith, both by R .C.

01:07:34

Sproul, a very watered -down systematic theology that you can go through.

01:07:40

It's digestible, understandable, and then you can move your way up to, you know, a Wayne Grudem, John McArthur, Louis Burkhoff type stuff.

01:07:47

Awesome. Jai Balin says, Sovereignty of God is the pillar upon which the child of God rests his head at night, giving perfect peace, by Charles Spurgeon.

01:08:00

Maybe J .R. Packer was quoting Charles Spurgeon. By the way, Charles Spurgeon is in the room with you right now as we speak, is he not?

01:08:08

Yes, he is. He's right over there. Yeah, see, he was kind of funnel -bombing this whole video. I have yet to bow down to that one, though.

01:08:17

So praise Charles Spurgeon. Now, again, the sovereignty of God is the pillow upon which the child of God rests his head at night.

01:08:24

It is because God decrees everything. Everything has a purpose in time, and for that reason, we can trust that God's purposes will come to fruition, even when it's scary, even when you don't know what's going to happen.

01:08:37

We know the one who does know, and we can place our trust in him. So we trust in a sovereign God, and it does give us peace.

01:08:44

Contrary to popular opinion, I don't think that the decrees of God is a reflection of God's monstrous personality.

01:08:51

I think it is an expression of his care, his wisdom, and his purposes unfolding in the world that he's created.

01:08:57

So yeah, thank you for sharing that quote there. Did you have anything you wanted to add to that? Yeah, I would say the greatest example of God's sovereignty would be the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

01:09:10

So undoubtedly, the greatest evil that ever could have been perpetrated in humankind was the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

01:09:21

He's the only innocent man who ever lived, never did anything wrong, yet he was put on a cross.

01:09:27

That's the greatest evil ever to be perpetrated. And out of that greatest evil,

01:09:33

God brings about the greatest good in the purchasing of his people for himself and the payment, the atonement for their sins.

01:09:43

So here you have the greatest evil bringing about the greatest good because God decreed in his sovereignty and in his intention to allow that, to bring that to pass and bring about the greatest good.

01:09:56

So if God can bring about the greatest good out of the greatest evil at the cross, what can he do with the evil that's happened to you in your life?

01:10:04

That's right. Thank you for that. Kevin C says, are both of these guys reformed

01:10:10

Calvinist? Yep. Baptist of the Baptist leaning? I am the reformed rookie.

01:10:17

That's right. That's right. We're not baby dippers. We are, as the

01:10:23

Presbyterians call us, we're baby haters. We hate our babies because we don't baptize them. So I'm just kidding.

01:10:34

Nemtugies, I'm so sorry. I don't know exactly how to say that, but if every word found in scripture is dire,

01:10:41

I don't know what that means. How, when a proponent of Christianity, the Christianity objection who says hypothetically, oh, that's okay.

01:10:48

This is a rough one because I have to get the grammar. I'm going to read it as is, as best I can. If every word found in scripture is dire, how, when a proponent of the

01:10:59

Christianity objection who says hypothetically, rejects a single book like Nehemiah, have they not compromised intelligibility?

01:11:07

Now that's a mouthful. I think I know what you're saying. And then he follows up. Wouldn't the God who reveals

01:11:12

Nehemiah be different from a God who does not? Okay. Okay. Well, I'll address the second part first, because part of our worldview is that there is only one true

01:11:23

God. So there wouldn't be two gods issuing two different books, right? Because that's not the

01:11:29

Christian worldview. Christian worldview is that there's one God, right? Who reveals himself to us through Jesus and gives us his word.

01:11:38

I'm not so sure I understand what Christianity is. Yeah. So if folks are interested, I have an entire episode just on Christianity.

01:11:47

I was literally looking at it. It's entitled, Christianity Refuted. Right now it's got like a thousand views, came out a while ago.

01:11:56

I highly recommend people watch it. Okay. It addresses what is called the

01:12:02

Christianity objection. So it's related to a critique of the transcendental argument for God's existence.

01:12:08

So if I argue that the necessary precondition for intelligible experience and knowledge is the Christian worldview, because the

01:12:14

Christian worldview provides the preconditions for knowledge, intelligible experience, history, philosophy, anything.

01:12:21

Okay. Someone might say, well, what if there is this hypothetical position that holds to a

01:12:26

God that is similar to the God of the Bible in every single way, except maybe like one little difference? Couldn't that be sufficient to ground intelligible experience?

01:12:36

Okay. And so he's saying here, what happens if I hold to a worldview in which the

01:12:41

Christian God is similar to the Christian God, except in the world he created, the book of Nehemiah was never inspired and given to us.

01:12:48

Does that affect the nature of the God that we're talking about? No. Okay. It wouldn't.

01:12:54

Okay. Because a God who does not, it is not inconsistent with God. God was free to inspire

01:13:01

Nehemiah or not to inspire Nehemiah. Okay. We live in a world in which God has actually decreed that Nehemiah would be inspired, but that is not a, uh, the kind of proposition

01:13:13

Nehemiah is scripture that if you removed would make us be talking about a different God, or it would not be necessarily be a different worldview, right?

01:13:23

Because there's a more general principle undergirding that our worldview entails that God has revealed himself. Okay. A God who has not revealed

01:13:31

Nehemiah still revealed himself. And so what he reveals would still be sufficient for intelligible experience. Everything in Nehemiah, it's theology is, uh, buttressed by other places of scripture that touch on similar issues, right?

01:13:43

Uh, so that would not touch the intelligible intelligibility of the Christian faith. Now, the reason why Christianity doesn't work is because we're talking about necessary preconditions for knowledge, uh, an ultimate transcendental foundation for intelligible experience.

01:13:57

You can only have one of those. So if someone says, well, what are this hypothetical Christianity position? Well, you have a problem. Do you hold to Christianity?

01:14:04

If you say you hold to Christianity, then I'm going to grill you. Okay. We're going to talk about unpack that worldview.

01:14:10

If you say I don't hold to Christianity, it's just a hypothetical. My question then is where are you standing when you're giving this hypothetical?

01:14:17

If Christianity is a hypothetical competitor as being the only foundation for intelligible experience, but you don't hold to it, nor are you holding to the

01:14:25

Christian worldview, which I'm claiming is the only foundation, then that assumes that you could neutrally float between these two options and talk intelligibly about them.

01:14:33

You can't because there's no neutrality, right? So I would say that you either accept

01:14:39

Christianity and argue for its transcendental necessity or accept Christianity, or don't use the

01:14:46

Christianity objection because it's going to be open to the same sorts of criticisms. Okay. Now, again,

01:14:51

I'm not going into detail on purpose. There's an entire video on it. I mean, the episode is literally like an hour and a half and we cover all sorts of issues relating specifically to this objection.

01:15:03

So I highly recommend people check that out. Okay. All right.

01:15:09

See, that's it here. Okay. Well, Anthony, I'd like to thank you so much for coming on and I want to pray for you because now you have successfully passed and now you are placed in a position where you will need prayer.

01:15:26

So, you know, if people who are watching, you're believers, please join me in prayer as we pray for Anthony and his new position at his church.

01:15:36

This is a position that is an honorable position and that we pray that God uses him in an effective way so that he could function in that capacity to the best possible way that he possibly can by the grace of God.

01:15:49

Okay. All right. So, Heavenly Father, we come before you in the name of Jesus, Lord. We thank you so much for your love towards us, your mercy and grace towards us.

01:15:58

We thank you for your salvation that you've given us, giving us Christ, granting us faith and repentance,

01:16:03

Lord. We thank you for all of those things. We also thank you for the honor and the privilege to serve in your church for the kingdom,

01:16:10

Lord. And so the role of elder and pastor, Father God, is a lofty role with great responsibility. And so I just pray, grant

01:16:18

Anthony the grace to function in that capacity in a way that will be effective for your kingdom and beneficial and edifying for the body of Christ, Lord.

01:16:27

Give him words of wisdom, help him to never lose the passion and love that is required to do ministry.

01:16:34

We don't, you know, ministry people don't, shouldn't go into ministry for money. It's not a glamorous thing.

01:16:40

It's very difficult. And I pray, Lord, that you continue to give him passion and love for you and made that love that he has for you be expressed in his obedience towards you in the role that you have given him,

01:16:51

Lord. So we just pray, give him the wisdom and strength to do that well. We thank you, Lord. We love you. And we pray all of this in Jesus' name.

01:16:57

Amen. All right, brother. Well, thank you so much. I love you, man. I really appreciate it. Love you too. Keep on.

01:17:03

Press on. Same to you, brother. And hopefully I'll get you back on. We can talk more about something related more specifically to apologetics, but I think this was very relevant to it.

01:17:12

So thank you so much. You got it. God bless you, brother. Bye -bye. All right. God bless. And everyone else, thank you so much.

01:17:18

Be sure to tune in on Thursday. I'll have Jeff Durbin on 9 p .m. Eastern on Thursday, December 2nd.