Is Bethel a Cult?

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All right, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults.

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My name is Jeremiah Roberts I'm one of the co -hosts here I am here with super sleuth

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Andrew the super sleuth of the show. I how are you man? I'm doing well I'm excited for this episode today.

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It's gonna be a hot topic like an emotional topic. Oh my goodness We've got someone very special with us today. How about go ahead and yeah

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So I want to introduce you guys to You may have listened to our previous podcast that took place earlier today at your hotel and that so the audio is a little higher quality because we've got some professional recording equipment versus just knife on seven that we laid down and Here we are and it's good to have you with us.

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How are you doing? I'm excited to be here I'm not sure they'd call me a professor. Oh, but a teacher a teacher.

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Yeah, it's just professor has this like oh, yeah Credentials and stuff. Oh, yeah So to give everyone context

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Definitely, if you haven't listened to the two episodes, you might be seeing this on TV we have two episodes where we kind of just kind of was really kind of introductory kind of breaking the ice and hopefully this will be continuation no pun intended of showing that you can have everything surrounding this when we and it did our initial series with Lindsay Davis it it we really struck a raw

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Level of thought within the marketplace of ideas, especially people within the body of Christ at the end of episode 3

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I gave an invitation for someone to come on and You reached out to us and we were conversing back and forth.

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You're gonna get with us, but we just so happened to You were busy. You got a lot of stuff going on So it just so happens we had an episode on the new age, which we're going to discuss in another episode and so Then we're so now here you are and we're here with you now, so Right now we want to definitely get into the theology and discussions

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But just tell for anyone who has listened the previous episode tell them again. Just really a brief summary Who you are?

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Just a little bit of your credentials and what what's going in just so you know If you haven't listened the previous two episodes you came out here on your own accord from Redding, California And you see this is important conversation.

02:15

You have just just share with us what? What's on your mind and what's prompting you again to come on and have this conversation over these issues?

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My name is Elijah, and I teach apologetics at Bethel and I came out because I listened to the defective from Bethel episode and I said hmm

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There's some things that I agree with there's some things. I don't this will be a great conversation

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These seem like great guys yeah, and so yeah, you seem like healthy safe people and so I Wanted to talk to you awesome awesome

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So we we kind of went around some general issues as far as the role of prophecy the role of prophets

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And you definitely check out those other two episodes So this episode we're going to be kind of delving into the theology because this is an important thing to discuss there are a lot of people and Who are using the term and this is

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You sometimes people will throw Will give stuff things titles right away. You know just very reactionary

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You know heresy. This is false Christ false gospel, but it's Important one to define terms, but maybe sometimes people don't realize the weight of such a statement

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Oh, yeah, because of the fact that you're really dealing with the difference between Having eternal life and the depart from me

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I never knew you and false Christ false gospel like that's but when someone makes a charge It's not something that can be taken lightly and it just so happens that this episode

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We're gonna be focused on just a couple points of the theology So there are men that I look and highly respect.

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I highly respect all just all the same in a costly him he Makes is that we're gonna talk firstly about Jesus because that's really there's a lot of variety of topics and we taught we hung out yesterday

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And we had a good time and there's a lot of things you could go around even somewhere between the line of like secondary issues that a lot of people talk within the body of Christ, but it's

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This is where it's really all at. Mm -hmm. So I'm going to just set it up and I'm gonna go ahead and play this initial clip.

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This is actually from Uncle Wally we're gonna be talking about the first aspect of what people bring up the kenosis

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There's another there's another Jesus and you're around the Bethel. I mean you're you're from there's a whole slew of What people say and and don't say as far as what is really being taught all that sort of stuff

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And so I want to just kind of set up a foundation talk about why this is so important and we're on the safe page

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We agree with that and then how do we hear on some levels from the horse's mouth?

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What are like, how do we how do we deal with this? I think this would be beneficial for everyone

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So let me go ahead and pull up as you know, you are familiar with just so you know, too.

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You said you had a Professor that someone that worked with Walter Martin. Oh, yeah

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Kevin Lewis Kevin Lewis. He's a excellent prof and he does

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Colts he does occult all that stuff and he's got a legal background and so he

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Teaches apologetics from a legal perspective and interesting. It's super interesting. Okay, I'll definitely have to check that out

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Maybe you can send me some videos and stuff like that. So they're gonna set the foundation This is a clip from Walter Martin in it.

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This is actually One of my favorite videos it's called dialogue at the doorstep with a

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Mormon and you can see it's a mock Conversation between someone who's a former more in Walter Martin. They kind of play devil's advocate back and forth and Even though this isn't necessarily about Mormonism.

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It's what Waldee says here is very Relevant to our discussion. So I'm gonna go ahead and play this and here we go

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Well, you know whenever anybody wants to talk with me about Christianity or religion.

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I always remember the words of the Lord Jesus and He said the most important question was what do you think of Christ?

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That's the very son is he that's really where it's all at and and for me

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I'd really like to know what you really think of Jesus Christ because that's really where it's all at That's where it's all

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I for us the name of our churches Yeah, so I put that little long but that's what he says right there is accordingly really important That's and that's what

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I always try in when you're having these conversations you got to get to the really laser focus and what are the essentials like what do you say about Jesus, so the

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The people the act is that what we've seen as far as like the buzz goes and you're familiar with this we've already discussed this with you are the quotes from Bill Johnson when heaven meets earth and I'm gonna go ahead and just Read this because quote entirety and I you know

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Obviously if you guys have the book whether you're from Bethel It will give you this slide the sources and references and all that sort of stuff

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So I'm gonna go ahead and just quote this and then we'll go ahead and have this discussion.

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So Quote this is from page 29 of when heaven meets earth Quote Jesus could not heal the sick

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Neither could he deliver the tormented from demons or raise the dead to believe? Otherwise is to ignore what he said about himself and more importantly to miss the purpose of his self -imposed

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Restriction to live as a man Jesus Christ said of himself. The Son can do nothing

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John 15 9 and in the Greek language the word nothing has a unique meaning it means

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Excellent in capitalized nothing just as it does in English. He had no supernatural capabilities

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Whatsoever while he is hundred while he is a hundred percent God He chose to live with the same limitations that man would face once he was redeemed

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He made the point over and over and over again Okay, I think so that twice

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Jesus became the model for all who would embrace the invitation to invade the impossible in his name

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He performed miracles Wonders and sign and signs as a man in right relationship to God Not as God if he performed miracles while he was

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God, then they would not have been attainable for us But if he did them as a man,

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I am responsible to pursue his lifestyle recapturing the simple truth changes everything and makes possible for a full restoration of The ministry in his church close quote so What I'll do is because I the we can maybe get into the second quotation and maybe we'll bring that up in the conversation

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But I want to get the other clip out of the way That's okay. And then this is a clip that I've seen posted online and This took place at a

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Hillsong conference and it's roughly about two minutes. This is what Bill Johnson said particularly about the nature of Jesus at in regards to miracles and and similar to what it appears to have been said in this

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And what was said and would have his meat service. So let's go ahead and play that and here we go He said the

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Son of Man can do nothing of himself Do you know that Jesus so restricted his function on earth?

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That he actually couldn't heal anyone He couldn't multiply food

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He couldn't cast out devils he couldn't do any of that stuff Because he had restricted himself

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To the life of a human being that would have to be dependent on the Father through the

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Holy Spirit Now if he did miracles as God, I'm still impressed, but I I'm reduced to an observer.

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I Stand back and go that's amazing. God. That's amazing. But the New Testament was different The New Testament shifted where everyone gets to be involved and that which

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God is doing everyone gets to be involved why because now The Holy Spirit that once rested on the prophets of old now dwells in every believer and he is the spirit of resurrection

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The Holy Spirit is in you and he wants out He's in us according to Scripture as a river not a lake

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It's not just an abiding presence it's a flowing presence that alters the geography of the world around us

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It's being a people that learn how to cooperate with this wonderful Holy Spirit so that he can bring transformation to an

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Individual to an environment to a city to a nation But he is the one who brings about the change and it's my yieldedness to him that makes the difference

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Never turn down an opportunity to die. Mm -hmm Okay, there you go.

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Yeah, those are those are just two examples You're familiar with this. You've been across I'll just real quickly and hopefully

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I want to set up as much of Context as possible. This is a tweet by Bill Johnson And I don't have no idea who's replying to I just pulled this up where he this has come up with That same accusation and he says no,

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I don't believe that Jesus is eternally God always has been always will be that's another hurtful rumor.

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So You've met Bill. Sure, and you've looked him in the eye and he said the same thing to you like, where do we?

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That's a long setup How do we make sense as someone who attends from Bethel? What do we do with all where do we go from here?

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Like how do we make sense of all this from your perspective? Yeah Um, I want to back up and show what is sound doctrine if we're going to talk about kenosis if we're going to talk about Whatever.

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Okay Sound doctrine orthodoxy doctrine is that Jesus is fully

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God fully man And so that The second person of the

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Trinity took on human form and these aren't confused at all

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He's fully human fully God that and and it's necessary to for this

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For God to die for our sins And so Like When you start to confuse these things it becomes a salvation issue, right?

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And so like and and I want to kind of explain this to a

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Bethel audience for a moment, absolutely because we're How do I put it?

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We? At times are very generous in having doctrinal disagreements

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You might find an Arminian and a reformed person in the same church old earth young earth that type of stuff and Like the nature of renewal movements is let's look beyond our secondary and third level issues and go

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Go for Jesus and and see his kingdom come in power and love each other despite our our differences

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When it comes to heresy claims in the New Testament, there's two reasons you get kicked out of church

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One is heresy the second sleeping with your stepmom Like and so it's a big deal and to to say

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Well, those would be two those would be like two primary examples, right? Right, right you could there's others

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Yeah, yeah, like you click on the one like spreadsheet and like yeah more pop -up or right? Right. Those are two examples

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Yeah, but I my point with this is this like it's not out of the church. It's out of the kingdom like when a church when

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Paul says hand this man over to Satan it's like We are acknowledging you are not a part of the body of Christ And so that is a big deal

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And so that is what the other side hears When they hear certain statements or buzzwords come out of us.

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They're like, oh my gosh these guys are

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Teaching people things that will cause them to go to hell. Mm -hmm. And so I Have talked with Bill because I think that's an important thing to look into right?

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I've seen stuff in books that make me go. Oh, I've got questions, right? I've seen other sides where I go.

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Yeah, it sounds like he he he's teaching Hypostatic Union and so I just point -blank asked him one

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Sunday. I'm like Bill. What do you believe and this is very important When you're asking people what they believe

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Make it as simple as possible. You don't want to use big words to confuse people

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Heresy test should be super clear. Okay, and so I Just said do you believe?

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Jesus fully God fully man Or do you believe he he's fully man and God minus some attributes and he said

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Fully God fully man. That's what I believe And if you know someone

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If I actually taught what people think I teach, you know, I would be concerned like if I heard someone doing that, right?

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So for me I go, okay, I I see that I see that there's some things

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I hear things that I go. I would be confused if I read that right, right and So I I do think there's a bit of a mess to clean up.

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I I think there is confusion on this topic But to the best of my knowledge being as honest as a person as I can

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Like to investigate this like I talked to Elders at our church. Yeah.

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Well, what do we believe I talked to the theologian at our church What do we believe and it consistently comes back fully

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God fully man and like One of them told me that, you know

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Bill Johnson sat in the room when we approved our doctrinal statement that said fully

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God fully man. And so That's what he wants us to teach.

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Mm -hmm. I I teach at school there has never been anyone who's

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Told me to teach kenosis Or anything of that nature or born -again

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Jesus or little God theology, okay and so Yeah, but okay.

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So when it comes to I mean I look when you sent the initial document and you have your statement of faith and we talked about this and relatively it is

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It looks generally orthodox for sure My question is then when it comes to like you mentioned if I it's not

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Like I this is not if I if I taught this stuff like I'd be surprised that people are actually assuming what

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I teach would That that's what he said. Am I miss miss paraphrasing it?

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Okay So my I guess my question would be with that His level of teaching with that on some level go over to his writings or his books

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I Guess so. Yeah, so here's so here I guess the discrepancy that I'm having and it's it's there's a level where I want to be fair you

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Like you say you've come out here on your own accord. These are very this is very important when you Want to lay charge like these it's you can't do it lightly.

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It's this is a very important topic an issue What do it's my my hang -up with here and talking with you

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Is that I look at the Orthodox statement and we were talking earlier from Georgia and there and even like in in Texas and people

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Even they are like in Texas There's this whole this kind of this honor where you look a man the eye and he tells you what he means and means what?

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He says there's that aspect. And so when you said you did it with Bill I Believe you.

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So my question would be When we look at these statements and there's there's a lot of other references in multiple books where the words

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Being stripped of his divinity or doing miracles as someone else dependent on that when I hear that and I'll be perfectly honest as one like Walter Marne talked about the

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How do you detecting the counterfeit and then you give the example of the counterfeit dollar bill?

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Have you heard that analogy he's talked about? I've heard. Oh, yeah Yeah as he basically says you become so familiar with the original that you detect a counterfeit because he thought what people don't counterfeit money all

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That sort of stuff. So I know just from myself that I saw that video being passed around which

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I just played that clip There's an aspect where how I've been in perfect constant transparency That's made my hair stand on end and it's just not that it's like anything after anyone personally

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But this is not this is not the Jesus that I know the dude that that is from Scripture That I mean we talked about like R .C.

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Sproul, for example talks about the nature of Jesus and him His is humbling was act as humbly was actually taking on flesh and subtraction right by addition

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So like what do we do? What why are the like why are the statements there like throughout those two years and have does there anything else you want to end?

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Yeah, I was kind of wondering too. So what exactly how are those statements there? Does it have anything to do maybe with some type of eschatology that needs to be fulfilled?

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Like where he says he performed miracles wonders and signs as a man in right relationship to God not as God if you perform

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Miracles because he was God then they would be unattainable for us. Does that have anything to do with some type of Eschatology in line of like taking

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Dominion. So is there some type of? Theology that is actually

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Influencing the view of Jesus because we hear him saying one thing but then in his book

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He says something totally different, you know, so I'm just I'm just wondering some curious. Well, I'm gonna guess

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Because and I think it's gonna be an accurate guess At Bethel our

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Passion is to see God's kingdom come to earth. Okay, and by kingdom

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It can be any sign of the kingdom people saved people killed the hungry fed

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Families restored love and so I I think the point

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Bill is trying to make is that We as humans because he says don't miss an opportunity to die right and there there's a sense in which

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Part co -laboring with God to see his kingdom comes to earth Is painful like going up to someone to talk about Jesus is painful like it's awkward

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Praying for a sick relative is awkward praying for a co -worker I might lose my job right and so he's trying to point to Jesus I think as the perfect model of what it looks like for Humanity to live in right relationship to God like that is the thrust of What he is saying and I I do see

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Jesus as my rabbi I I want to become like him in all these ways. I won't I want to continue in my personal development to share

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Jesus with people to pray for the sick, and I think There's a large portion of the church who values

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Correctly articulating Jesus, which you should at the expense of living like what

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Jesus are Living the lifestyle of Jesus. Mm -hmm And so I think he's trying to counteract that and I think there's some phrases that need to be changed.

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Okay, right Okay. Yeah, I what I think what would be good is is like I said

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I want I want to be as fair as possible because and then the thing is though is that Everyone that I've talked to who sees those statements

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I try to just like I've started going through in heaven meets earth and I had no I forgot I had forgotten where the reference was

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Sure, and as soon as you could title it you could give a completely different author Whoever it is, it could be a completely different book publisher completely different Everything throw

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Bethel out the window. I read that it made my staring my hair stands on end This is dangerous and it's important that I don't see any other conclusion like how people are coming to this and my concern is that this is something that is

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Like you're you're a worldwide movement this book is being This and many other books were a lot of these additional sources where the the same thing is happening

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Where it's not some third -party blog saying he said this right right and that's

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I'm not interested in doing that These are books by authored by bill like under the under the under Whose publisher is that that are saying these things and even if he didn't mean that I don't see how

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People all around the world could read that and come to that even if you're saying he's not kenosis I could see how someone even could you know,

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I mean, yeah So the question is like how like that so Doreen for example when she? When she came out of the

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New Age She was in Iraq in a hard place because she had published a lot of crazy stuff

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And so when she came to know Jesus and this is an example of revival And we'll talk about this too. And we talked about the

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New Age. She was conflicted She's like I have to try and unpublish this stuff as much as possible because I don't want to lead people astray, right?

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Is that something you could see bill doing it that that's what he did because He's saying in one thing and I believe he was not like you look the man in the eye

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I'm gonna take you for account like Is that something you think he could do or take ownership over because I don't see how all the published works

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And him just saying I've never said that with other people or looking at you. I don't see how those two jive together.

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Ah Yeah, I mean I've shared this with you that you know, we're gonna send out some clarification videos or Whatever Bethel does some we start talking one way and then it ends up maybe a document or something

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Yeah, and I hear the greater body of the church like Definitely need to clarify

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Definitely in my opinion. It would be wise to in future updates of books to clarify use that type of language and I think also for us to Develop catchphrases that encapsulate

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Perfect Christology, right because hmm for better or for worse

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Charismatics tend not to trend towards systematic theology, although I wish we would

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And We learn through osmosis a bit. Mm -hmm. And so yeah,

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I think it would be very Helpful for the teachers in our movement to think what are the catchphrases we need to start

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Using to get this, right Okay Yeah So with all the people that are in that you interact with with Bethel the different people who are in front of the front in charge of different theology

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And the professors and the different people that you interact with who really are formally the doctoral statements are in these discussions when this issue of kenosis like if this was brought up like if you if I took this if I took this phrase and Didn't say it was

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Bill Johnson and like I read it to them Yeah, like is that something you like say you'd accept that like where would how would they how would they deal with that?

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Um, I'm trying to me. I'm just trying to make sense of these. Yeah. Yeah, these do I conflict? It would seem to be very much a confliction

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Let's say a student was teaching that. Mm -hmm. I Think they would

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Definitely. I mean if I heard that taught and let's say it was someone under me at some level.

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Uh, I Could see myself sitting down and being like well walk me through what you think

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Did you mean to say that? Yeah, and and to Gently and lovingly, you know, correct what needs to be corrected.

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Sometimes people misspeak Times people miss right You know bills on the road 200 days sometimes preaches on two to three hours of sleep, right and so What I don't want to do is do heresy trials in my mind like healthy churches look at problems sometimes it takes some time and They go, all right this this is something we're getting feedback on look let's do the right thing and That's always been

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Bethel's mode of operation is Let's do what's right and so I have high confidence that what you know

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There'll be some executive level conversation about how to make things right, but yeah

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Okay, and did you have any anything? Did you want to bring up or no? I think I think that's pretty good. Okay Yeah, I would just I would just say that When it comes to this this whole issue is that Again, I'll quote just to kind of paraphrase and who knows

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I might be interacting with him at some point He lives here in the valley like Kosti him like given the state of circumstances right now

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I'll take you at your word and this is what's being said and being and from your vantage point is your vantage point not mine

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I believe given given I would say even independent lines of testimony as far as like multiple different publications

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Which appear to be saying the same thing? We may we may post some of these things in broader context as additional quotes of when heaven meets earth and and other

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Quotes where this is talking about Jesus divinity being stripped He as he has the right and and as the role in a proper in rolling

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You want to talk about like the code of honor even honoring his role as a position of a pastor and shepherd of the church

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He's been called to shepherd and protect to say right now There would have to be action on Bills and either

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I would say even unpublished those books Reclarify and do everything you can because he's saying one thing all his published works are saying another

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So at this point in time, I would say that Like Kosti would have every right to Stand behind what he's saying

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It's at least the Canonic Christ that saying that at least in conformity to The different sources and references in his books because I at least for me personally

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I don't see any way around except to come to that conclusion So it's like how do I make sense of both worlds?

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Does that make sense what I'm saying? It kind of does I mean you have to evaluate me as a witness like imagine.

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Yeah this someone Says I saw a murder and that's the one person

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Okay, we would convict on that all you needs one witness and so I'm I'm telling you what the man said to my face and You know if you want to be cautious to be cautious and that yeah, that's fair but I I don't feel feel it's fair to say

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Bill Johnson believes in kenosis anymore or Bill Johnson whatever

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Different version you want born -again Jesus or adoptionism or Christ consciousness

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Maybe you doubt me So you just go is this a credible witness or not? Yeah.

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No, I I believe you I believe you Yeah, and I've been transparent with that and following the

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Texas Georgia look a man in the eye and stuff like that I want to be as transparent as possible. I just I think we're really needs to come come to because With all there are a lot of people and I've talked about that I look up to that I highly respect who are using the word like cult to describe your movement

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And again, it's it's important obviously to define terms in it that we're there's obviously the different issues

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Even when it comes to like where the role of spiritual gifts and prophecies the station and versus continuation Yeah those are kind of in -house discussions and this whole process of Bethel's been kind of like an interesting nuance between my world and the world of Evangelicalism, I believe where what

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I would be really interested to see, you know, we just I'm gonna probably have to this.

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I'm gonna probably take a break from the whole Bethel thing for a while Sure, but I think long -term With these issues coming up and it will and hope maybe this podcast and our conversation could be a catalyst for this

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There would need to be I would want to see like good action taken as far as what?

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These statements are In the same way if I find this if I have I'm under I've got elders that are under my authority, right?

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I have people that I have to answer to ultimately I have to answer to God and I would not want to state anything that would make

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Someone stumble in an area where like I said read this. This is crossing that fine line of Being unclear even if there's no ill intent, right toying with Christology and Pushing that line in second

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John if anyone goes too far So that that I don't know that that's where I'm kind of that but mostly

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I want to hear from you I'm just kind of expressing what I think and that there's anything else maybe that You want to kind of bring up as regards to like what

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I'm saying? Yeah, and you know, I Me personally. I I want to give people the benefit of the doubt

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Especially People who I know are my brothers and say just clarify yourself and I would say this

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Why These are things going through my head as you speak The charismatic movement has been called heretics called all the time

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Regardless of what we do and So eventually these claims become the boy that cried wolf and It makes people tone -deaf toward them right and so like to be

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They have to end if the guy comes out and says look this is what

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I believe like those who are

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Saying look this guy teaches kenosis. Mm -hmm have to come out and say it's done and I think yeah,

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I Think we have to treat those words with their seriousness like Because it's kind of like this

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Material heresy is misspeaking Formal heresy is I believe this right material is the equivalent of Going one mile over the speed limit.

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Mm -hmm, like it's wrong. I'm not gonna say it's not But what what happens is people misspeak or miss right?

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and we start trumping up charges and So it becomes like saying

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You know you go one mile over the speed limit and People go well that's breaking the law and Pedophiles break the law this guy is like a pedophile and so to be a formal heretic is a really grievous thing against God to misspeak is like Okay we miscommunicated something and But to put the word heretic or cult leader assigned to someone who

35:35

You're not sure has miscommunicated is saying the equivalent of This this is like a pedophile.

35:42

Mm -hmm. And so like the claim itself requires going to your brother to figure this out and So I would encourage everyone who says

35:59

I won't I I think this guy is a heretic Go to your brother

36:05

Matthew 18. Mm -hmm if you haven't talked to him Stop using those terms.

36:11

Okay. Yeah, it's kind of interesting to me to think as well. Um, you know I'm sure he's he's probably read these quotes multiple times

36:21

You know, he doesn't live in a rock like under a rock or whatever So does it does it can we can we infer in a sense that he may actually agree with what he wrote?

36:29

Cuz he's never unpublished it Um, I mean how long ago did he write that book and how many how long well he may think also that He's clarified and that seems to be what many people think is that You know our statement of belief says fully

36:50

God fully man, what more do you need? and So I I I'm trying to be as sympathetic as I can to the external church external to Bethel because Like we're called to care about the whole body, right?

37:08

and Yeah, okay. Yeah. Yeah So that's where I'd want to get where the clarification is because on one end you're talking about going to your brother

37:18

Yeah, there still is the responsibility to where not everyone can be

37:24

Accessible and they're still at the same time where if there is something where someone is if someone has a and let's just say

37:31

Someone brings in I'll bring something completely different. I I had a conversation one time I don't know if you're familiar that Jesus calling was

37:38

Sarah Young The there's the devotional you familiar with that Dude, no.

37:44

No. Okay. I'll just I'll just state this. So it's it's one of those books that is On the service one of those popular devotionals.

37:52

It just it's make kajillions of dollars I mean, it's just it's a huge seller Like I work at Costco and they

37:58

I see it there on the on the whole like book stack It's a big thing there's and the books are always about Jesus in the first person

38:05

But always towards the whole emphasis there's a lot of aspects that in it that are very mystical and it kind of goes outside the line and And she also gets into a lot of her devotionals come from her personal encounters

38:18

She thinks where Jesus is talking directly to her. She's almost like transcribing this So basically a long story short.

38:24

I don't believe it's a it's a theologically healthy book so I wouldn't say that if Someone comes into my small group,

38:34

I I'm a deacon at Apologia and They bring I see them with the Sarah Young book and I just say

38:41

I don't think that's the best book Here's why this is like there's there's a couple of the great devotionals my utmost for his highest by Oswald Chambers This is why this is what you want to consider and just graciously instruct there because I I can know by scripture

38:56

That this is there's things that are off here that are theologically dangerous and that's we that's a whole if you're going to stare at that That's a little bit of a tangent, but I wouldn't believe that I have to Call try and get a hold of Sarah.

39:11

Yeah, I don't I'm not obligated to call Sarah young or find that out me I could but if some is someone has something that they're

39:18

The primary thing is that as someone who's in the church is to shepherd and protect the flock

39:24

And it's not contingent on whether or not I could get a hold of her Yeah, or or Bill Johnson or anything like that is it just looking at here's a teaching.

39:32

Is it in conformity of scripture? Sure, that's when it comes down because the issues like I said are important and are vital, right?

39:41

There's three or four thoughts with that. Sure. One is the difference between slander, which is we would say is a crime in the

39:50

United States like You can be sued if you bring defamation to one's character and so You don't want to go there you want to say this teaching is false, but I don't know this person

40:09

Or this paragraphs bad You also want to this is one thing

40:16

I I struggle with Because I read across the spectrum like I read

40:23

Richard Dawkins I read Like I want to critically think through all

40:32

Everything and I I read from sources of people. I Don't believe everything that they say and I find facts in what they have written and I go well, that's true

40:46

And I'm gonna live like this fact is true because I don't want to commit the genetic fallacy Mm -hmm.

40:52

And so sometimes in the Christian world we have this catch -22 of we will listen to Jordan Peterson who

41:03

Doesn't believe Jesus resurrected or at least says I don't know and Go man, this guy's saying really good stuff on truth.

41:11

And then we hear Bill Johnson and we're like Burn everything of his.

41:17

Mm -hmm instead of going. Ah, that's not a good paragraph What about the stuff about living?

41:24

like Jesus And so that's compelling to me and that's why a lot of people go to Bethel and they go

41:32

Yeah, I'm not sure I would use that phrase But I want to live that lifestyle and which phrases that Emptied emptied.

41:42

Okay. Yeah. Yeah, so I mean and I appreciate and I appreciate where you're saying I think when you look at someone like like Jordan Peterson, I Listen to him as someone who's very very intelligent.

41:53

He's in a lot of ways. He's really has really is Spoken a big level of reason in today's craziness right with a culture for sure

42:02

If you're familiar, we both have watched that video separately where he's being interviewed by that UK journalist

42:08

He's trying to catch him and all these things and he is always flipping the table Yeah, and that for sure and you know, it's different between someone there

42:16

I see as someone he's someone who's it made in the image of God and I would see that hopefully all his

42:22

Everything that he has that the logic and reason that he has that ultimately comes from a

42:27

Christian worldview Which according to the Bible he know Jordan Peterson knows the triangle the

42:33

Bible exists That's what Romans once everyone knows got all that stuff and I would see is

42:38

Jordan Peterson For example is someone that would be if there's some opportunity interact with him

42:43

The odds of that are probably high that I run into him and have a gospel conversation with him I would love that.

42:49

That would be amazing Maybe he'll be a guest just one of these days. I love it, right? But when it comes to someone like he has a role there when it comes to Like there's plenty of people that will have really good and practical sermons on on holiness and living sure

43:07

There are there are times where people have had benefits from now again, this is not a direct comparison

43:14

That's just because this has come into like our Area of thought and what we explore and discuss

43:21

I mean there's plenty of people who have Learned really good even practical living skills and Bennett stuff that's beneficial for example from Scientology or Yeah, there's there's a lot of people who

43:33

I have friends. I mean I grew up kind of in the Mormon community there's a lot of Practical things of living and and having a life of happiness and people who generally think that they're going through things

43:45

They look better but I think where the the difference is is that ultimately when it comes down for someone who is

43:52

Like it Bill Johnson's role I would see it as is someone who is in the body of Christ someone who people look to as You know, you call him

44:03

Apostle and and that's we talked about that a little bit previously I would say that and I talked about this in the previous episode that if he's someone to be considered in the body of Christ He he has to hold adhere to the same

44:18

Biblical standards of rightly dividing the word of truth shepherding the flock So when it comes down to that someone could be coming down and learning

44:27

Practical and they could they mean I'm saying I'll let me wrap this up. I'm kind of rambling here They could learn good some good practical advice on how to follow

44:35

Jesus and they could be blessed by that but if it's mixed in with at best case near from my perspective

44:43

Christology that is Extraordinary confusing and unclarified at least from his published works

44:49

That's what that's where the concern rides in because I I'm fully convinced that someone even if Bill Doesn't believe that and I take you at your word

44:59

I think there's people who could read that stuff and come to those conclusions of that and that that's that's where the concern lies from My perspective.

45:07

Well, the reality is people have like I've talked to people who said

45:13

Look I've had to discipline pastors who teach kenosis And so I think that's a good argument to clean it up.

45:22

Okay, what I don't think is Like we need to be calling this man a heretic

45:31

Like I have you know when I was a pastor I misspoke about stuff

45:37

I Was not clear You know,

45:43

I remember Yeah people when I was a kid telling me in Sunday school.

45:49

God's like a cloverleaf Right. Yeah, and these are people that love Jesus and that they misarticulate something right?

45:56

And so like there is this balance between Like guys we we've got to do this well because this is so important what you're saying and then

46:11

Condemning our brothers and sisters, right and it's not like Jehovah's Witnesses where they have married a false

46:21

Christ, it's sometimes people don't communicate Christ correctly and That's what

46:29

I see sometimes and other times they hit it out of the park and frequently they do and so I I Yeah, we wish we can and will grow

46:42

I think about okay. Yeah, and just I think that How this whole thing is and it'll be interesting to see what the after -effects is

46:51

And I hope it's I mix I'm really interested to see what other people from Bethel come on and and I feel like a sense of relief because I want to be for me like I want to be

47:01

A man of my word. Yeah, I feel like now it's like I have some of that offer I gave is coming to fruition.

47:07

Yeah, I mean, I'm like praise the Lord I'm a man of my word and that's what I want to be. That's the type of person

47:12

I want to be and I see your integrity and like I see the integrity of the entire team here like I highly respect

47:24

Jeff and So integrity matters and it's a sign.

47:30

You love Jesus. Yeah. Yeah I also want to say this while it's popping into my mind

47:36

Dan Fairley in first year goes through all the heresies to the students

47:43

Christology the ones involving the Trinity. I remember sitting through this and So that also adds to the reason

47:53

I I believe We are an Orthodox Church, okay Yeah What I would like to see is and that and it would

48:02

I think what would be really encouraging because I think of all All the buzz out all the buzz out there and I'm just quoting

48:09

I mean any things I paraphrase are from other people who've said that I mean I've that the word cult has never really come from this show.

48:17

Sure We've brought up things that we see as things that are pushing it on on different levels into our realm and so what

48:26

I would want to see is In the area where you miss where he misspoke.

48:32

It's I'll just give you just one other just one other example this is from Bill Johnson face to face with God.

48:39

This was published in 2007 and Basically, it says this quote Jesus emptied himself of divinity and became man

48:48

While he is eternally God He chose to live within the restrictions of a man and who had no sin and was empowered by the

48:54

Holy Spirit in Doing this he provided a compelling model to follow and again

49:00

I just see that as another example of this best -case scenario incredible confusion and There is there is a level of importance with this because it says

49:11

I mean the Bible talks about that teachers are going to come under a stricter form of judgment true and this is someone that you

49:22

You it this is a church that you attend you put under him as as the teacher and I would really hope and pray that he does this because we're having a gentleman's conversation

49:32

Yeah, and and this has been I've really enjoyed the time talking to you that These are serious issues, and I'd really would like to see

49:40

Something be done about this or just yeah Oh, like I said that Jocko Willink extreme ownership if you guys bought a total site if you guys haven't seen that TED talk

49:48

It's amazing. It'll it'll kick in the pants So that's all I am

49:53

I'm gonna say as far as that as far as I mean that's kind of where I'm at with with this whole thing Is there any as far as the stuff that I brought up?

50:01

Is there anything that you want to kind of bring up as far as what we're talking about? Nothing's coming to mind right? Okay.

50:06

All right, so I think we covered that for a little bit. Let's just jump into one other

50:12

Clip that I've seen passed around Again the when we had Lindsay on these were things that she brought up when she saw the film

50:21

American Gospel and We want to know what her story was and in that she did use the words false

50:27

Christ false I mean we discussed that here She mentioned false gospel And this is

50:32

I believe this is the quote that she used and others have posted and have sent me So I believe it's just fair to read this and again it we're in a obviously we're in a world of where People there's always those sound bites and clips and stuff like that.

50:47

So I want it. There's a again. There's a chance where It's it's good to be fair. I want to play this clip from someone like yourself

50:54

I think that's incredibly fair and then it's important to discuss over these issues because Obviously Wally said that's important that it's where it's where it's all out as far as Christology But it's also what do you not just about who

51:08

Jesus is because you can have the right Jesus But if you Distort the gospel and mix something together where it's how you made right of them

51:16

That's where it gets dangerous to nuance. So let me go ahead and play This clip.

51:22

Let me find it here Hebrews 1 says in times past God spoke to us through the prophets, but now he speaks to us through Jesus What's the point?

51:34

That message was for them Jesus is for now Without that shift there is a constant reproducing of an anointing and a ministry that is not for today

51:50

Yesterday's anointing is like yesterday's manna and So this ministry of Jesus that dealt with every single person that came to him with affliction or torment

52:04

He ministered to them that's the only Standard to follow I refuse to create a theology that allows for sickness

52:12

Now here we got a problem Only one it's a small one The Apostle Paul gives a warning in Galatians and he says this he says if I He's the one who brought the gospel to him.

52:30

He said if I or even an angel comes to you and Preaches to you a different gospel

52:38

You're to reject That's amazing an angel shows up And he brings you a different standard a different gospel

52:47

Rejected he says even if I come back to you and I change my mind don't pay any attention to me

52:53

All right. What gospel is it? It's the gospel of Jesus. It's the gospel of the kingdom Okay Let me illustrate

53:13

Paul refers to his thorn in the flesh Which has been interpreted by many as disease allowed or brought on by God That's a different gospel

53:34

Jesus didn't model it and he didn't teach it and Paul said

53:42

You can't change the standard Okay that I think that's fair enough.

53:54

That's roughly the context of what he says So I'll I have my thoughts in it, but I want to hear from you

54:00

I've been waiting on on this to hear from you and part of me. It's like I want to get right to it

54:06

So let's have a conversation set the framework up for me because you said a lot of people are

54:13

They're like, oh, this is the thing that really Sends up the red flags if you could be like, this is the part of that.

54:20

Yeah well, let me I will I'll give context from my perspective of why I believe this is a

54:26

Huge area of concern and why this is making the accusations go out of false gospel

54:32

Okay, and it's congruent with what we've taught especially when we're dealing for example, we've done a lot of it

54:39

We're here in Arizona. You've seen our video if you guys follow apology of studios we do a lot of our content on YouTube and we have like a

54:46

Mormon evangelism and It comes up a lot where we talk about Galatians 1 like the context was is that?

54:52

Judaizers were coming in and they could say you can have your saved by grace through faith alone

54:57

You can have all of that, but you just need to have circumcision. That's part of yep snip -snip of that and and and they just add them to the gospel and then you're

55:08

That's okay And right away that was Paul's response is that this the gospel was being perverted works are being mixed in with the gospel

55:16

It was just one particular thing. Mm -hmm And so the language that Paul uses it says

55:23

We and this is where I'm wondering what? Again, there could have been

55:29

I'm not sure what Bill was trying to say here, but he's paraphrasing Galatians 1 in a way

55:36

I would I could say definitively that's not accurate because it's not just you ought to reject it

55:41

The Greek if you look at the Greek that's used when he says accursed or currently

55:46

Some English translations say occurs some say eternally condemned the word that Paul uses says let him be anathema so for example count

55:56

I believe is the Council of Trent where the Catholics basically said anyone who believes in faith alone.

56:03

Let him be anathema Historically the the word anathema also has been used in Christian creeds and councils when when they are condemning heresy, right?

56:11

so I would see it almost to the extent that that Could you argue that you could take this clip like Bill's the one firing the first shot that he's saying?

56:21

Well, if you don't believe if you have a theology allows for sickness because he's using Galatians 1

56:28

He is saying you ought to reject it. But the reality is the Galatians says it's the enough. It's the anathema of God You're eternally condemned because you're toying with the gospel.

56:38

Mm -hmm. So They would have flipped that and say no That's actually not true.

56:43

Therefore you're teaching another gospel That's and it's mixing in that signs and miracles are saying that it's a theology that allows for sickness and then he equates

56:53

Paul's thorn in the flesh So that I've tried to dissect it and that that's why I take especially get in the context of Galatians 1

56:59

So I haven't I haven't had anyone who they just posted that clip and like you look at the title

57:06

It's like, you know people to say this this false teacher this that's always around an internet land, right that one but when

57:12

I hear that clip that that's how I make sense of where they're coming from and that's

57:17

I think that's an important conversation Right you have right and so let me make sure

57:22

I'm getting you, right. You're saying that what people are hearing is We're teaching that if you believe sickness comes from God You're going to hell or Like you are believing something false.

57:37

Yeah. I mean, I'm just I'm trying to make sense of right word Uh, that is there. I mean certainly not our belief system

57:48

Reform people are going to heaven cessation list are going to heaven anyone who Gives their life, you know believes in Jesus and and his resurrection as the

58:02

Atonement for our sins and says Jesus, you know I I need you and I want to live my life for you is a believer.

58:12

Mm -hmm. I I hear you man, like the You hear it through one lens and he's saying

58:21

Like if you're sitting in a Bethel audience in a stadium or our church

58:28

You I I can hear We want to fight against sickness that is the kingdom message and this is the metaframe work of this is that in heaven, there is no sickness and when

58:46

Jesus came to earth or when the second person of the

58:51

Trinity took on human form What happened was every person he encountered was healed that he prayed for and so I Think that's scriptural and so the framework bill is thinking in is this is the kingdom message that Christ came to defeat the works of the devil

59:21

We attribute sickness to either Satan or original sin it had those never came

59:30

Then There would be none and so when we preach the gospel

59:37

Which are the message of salvation? With that we resist

59:45

Illness In in the sense of we pray against it With everything that we are we don't blame the sick.

59:52

We don't blame God But we're not trying to communicate that You guys are anathema

01:00:02

At all, okay, but you definitely understand the concern when oh definitely here in conduct conjunction with Galatians One we hear the anathema cause it's not not only that we get our red flags

01:00:13

But it sounds like as well that Bill Johnson is separating himself from the majority body of the church If you if you believe in a gospel that allows for sickness in accordance with Galatians 1

01:00:24

And one of my questions again would be Like like you've kind of explained it does this have to do with eschatology in a sense like I know throughout scripture

01:00:32

Jesus preaches that the gospel of the kingdom right so in in Bethel's point of view

01:00:37

What would be this gospel of the kingdom this second? Type of gospel that week that a lot of people seem to miss throughout script.

01:00:44

What what what is that? But all right, so there's two well so in 2nd

01:00:53

Temple Judaism There is this concept of This age and the age to come and Paul uses this language and so What we see is

01:01:08

When Jesus is talking about the kingdom and he preaches the kingdom of God's at hand

01:01:16

He proclaims that and then he demonstrates it so Kingdom of God's at hand

01:01:23

Person with leprosy be healed and that person is healed and So we would call that and already not yet Understanding of of the gospel.

01:01:34

It's called an inaugurated eschatology and so Bill believes that we can contend for more of the kingdom to come and See more of the kingdom through Faithfully being faithful and learning to follow the

01:01:57

Holy Spirit and He's well, I I see this as well that You know

01:02:07

Discipleship is different than being a student like a student wants to know everything a teacher knows a a disciple wants to know everything a rabbi knows and live like the rabbi and so What is spreading the gospel right now in China Latin America?

01:02:27

Africa is is power encounter and Our heart is to see power encounter in the

01:02:37

Western Church and And To combat the works of the devil

01:02:46

Yeah through it through prayer, okay, what would be

01:02:52

Tell me it just what is an empower power encounter look like because I'm is that is that a minister as I organization

01:02:58

Is that just an aspect of oh, that's just a phrase for when the Holy Spirit kills somebody or cast out a demon

01:03:05

Okay It it's it's an old -school 80s phrase Since there's so many hipsters

01:03:13

Yeah, do you think it's always God's will or intent to heal and if he doesn't heal that's if it that doesn't come about is that within his sovereignty?

01:03:24

So because in that in that quote, I mean it's phrased and I think with all those things The signs and miracles are kind of intermixed even with this discussion of the of the gospel and also with Jesus There's an aspect of It seems like Bill's trying to say about we're able to do at least we're able to do the miracles of Jesus because he lived at least

01:03:46

I'm taking it as as A man not being divine dependent on the other people because that's what we do that.

01:03:52

That's the He believes Jesus was divine so we gotta be fair about that Yes, Bill believes it's

01:04:02

God's desire to Heal everyone and I think many in the church will agree to this to more or less because I think every

01:04:13

Christian will say At death and at the resurrection of the dead From that point forward everybody is healed

01:04:22

We would also say there are times when God answers prayer and heals people we would say providentially

01:04:32

God heals through natural means. Mm -hmm. We would say even if you believe

01:04:37

God is sovereign and Willed that you had cancer like what like many in the reformed faith would say if you have cancer

01:04:47

God willed that You still go to the doctor. You still fight against Sickness and you don't go

01:04:57

I'm fighting against the gut the will of God Can I ask you this we because he mentioned yes, and there's this blurry popped in my brain.

01:05:04

Yeah, that's very second I hope it's not prophecy Better be right. But yeah, I Don't think so.

01:05:11

I have archives a lot of our some archives of just good information sometimes useless informations

01:05:16

Oh, yeah stuff total side note like in regards to that. I worked for like two weeks as Trying to be a lightbulb salesman.

01:05:24

Mm -hmm

01:05:30

So I have this loose archive of like useless information of light bulbs I'll never have because now I'm just buying them like everyone else.

01:05:37

Mm -hmm funny how that goes. So John Piper he got cancer

01:05:42

Okay, desiring God org and a lot of people who listen this podcast are familiar with him. There is a time where he got cancer and he's diagnosed with it and He said something that really stuck out to me when he said

01:05:58

Was really kind of looking at what does this really mean and Someone who believes in God's sovereignty over everything like an

01:06:06

Ephesians that he works all things according to the Council of his will One of the things I remember him saying is this this particularly he said

01:06:13

Lord Don't let me waste my cancer right as in how can I I believe this is something in in between the mystery between how

01:06:22

Evil and suffering and those sort of thing and God who looks over that this is also be going to be worked out like for your glory is that Would that be something that you would say that would ultimately like God would be sovereign over of and what it would allow to happen

01:06:39

In God's sovereignty from like your perspective and how you view theology when it comes to you know healing versus sickness.

01:06:47

I Want to represent Bethel a bit more on this sure I would say this about Bethel When it comes to healing

01:07:06

Their heart is to see people healed there and They would say

01:07:12

We don't believe that God Gave that to a person

01:07:19

But they they would not say a life is wasted if you have cancer

01:07:26

I think some people The catch -22. I think sometimes that happens to people is if you say it's

01:07:34

God's desire to heal Or God's will to heal and then you're sick.

01:07:39

Some people feel like I'm outside of God's will I don't think that's intentional and I don't think that's directly taught but it needs to be resisted and I Admire anyone who is sick?

01:07:55

Who goes I'm going to live for God's glory and then God is glorified by that.

01:08:01

Okay. Yeah, okay No, I appreciate that man. One thing I also That caught my attention and or you can jump in too if you have any thoughts to because I know your brains always whirling trying to think through different stuff is

01:08:14

When you think about Jesus and how he interacted with people. Sure. There's There's obviously times that he did heal.

01:08:23

Sure There's times that he didn't and he chose not to heal. He had the opportunity

01:08:29

I'll give you just an example Where he had a lot of a lot of people who followed him Around because they saw the signs and wonders and miracles that he was doing

01:08:38

There were times just to give you an example. This is John Chapter 6 verse 60 and in the context prior that he said some

01:08:48

Difficult teachings that has to do it and there's a lot of interesting theology has come out of this and that's a whole

01:08:53

Little one for a different time, but it's when he's talking about whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life

01:08:59

I'll raise him up on the last day. So that's kind of the context of what he's talking about he said he did this teaching while at the synagogue in Capernaum and Of it says upon this hearing many of the disciples said this is a hard teaching who can accept it

01:09:14

Aware that some of his disciples who were saying Yeah, and aware that his disciples were grumbling about this

01:09:21

Jesus said to them does this offend you Then then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before the spirit is life and the flesh counts

01:09:30

For nothing the words I have spoken for you. They are full of spirit and life Yet there are some of you who did not believe for Jesus had known that from the beginning

01:09:38

Which one of them did not believe in what it would betray them and he went on to say this is what? This is what

01:09:45

I told you and no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him and from this time Many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him, right?

01:09:54

So there's times where There were people I would say that Were that Jesus gave many hard words where it talks about he wants to Wants to try and save his life will lose it like come like come to me and die

01:10:10

That it's not there. You're coming ultimately for what like what's the purpose of?

01:10:17

Maybe we could just talk about this and we're just this is just where my brain where my thought here is going I mean you gotta ask to like what when we're presenting the gospel

01:10:26

And even if we don't include signs and wonders like what's what's the cell what's the big point for Jesus?

01:10:33

And even it was brought up in American Gospel a lot of times people and this is not everyone But I've seen we're kind of Jesus is the byproduct of having health and wealth and all that sort of stuff

01:10:43

I mean we talked in their previous podcast a little bit about what's going on with this discussion like regarding Benny Hinn but even with the fact that there are times where Like what what's the real reason we're why you're going for Jesus Are you going there because you know that you're a sinner and that like you've broken

01:11:02

God's law And that is talks about the reaper So when Paul in Romans 1 in Romans 1 we talked about this is the power of God and to salvation

01:11:12

And the problem is this is the right the Gospels is the righteousness of God that comes through faith in Jesus the righteousness of God for our sin and Like the purpose that like what are we going there for are we knowing that we're broken that we need a

01:11:25

Savior and that we Ultimately when we stand before God look Walter Martin said there's there's one like we talked about disease and sickness

01:11:32

There's one disease. None of us are ever going to be cured from right our last one Right, all of us all of us have that.

01:11:40

Yeah, and ultimately What is what is the Gospels? How are we made right with God when we stand before God?

01:11:46

Like what do we have? It's not just what we believe in Jesus, but what do we believe about him?

01:11:52

He's the he is the one who knew no sin who became sin for right? What I would say is it is extraordinary danger when there's an overemphasis on The healing and the miracles that that ultimately is not what someone ultimately needs

01:12:10

They need to know they need to know the gospel that they need to know that Their sin has separated them from a holy

01:12:17

God, right and without having Jesus the wrath of God abides on all people whether it's whether it whether it's whether it's the people who are who have a law who are the

01:12:30

Jews or the or the People who are the Gentiles who know the law of God in their hearts That I think that that's really where the emphasis of the gospel has to be

01:12:40

Mm -hmm. I think if you the the over the overemphasis on signs and wonders can be an Extraordinary danger if you're if you're not careful because people might be are coming then to be healed

01:12:50

But are they really do they really know about the real need for Jesus? I guess his grace still so yeah for them.

01:12:57

Yeah yeah, cuz I mentioned if one last thing and I'm my I'm just meant to hear the story of the ten lepers and Jesus goes and heals him only one gave glory to God.

01:13:09

Mm -hmm I would say that there's one person that was cured of leprosy who went to heaven gave glory to God There's nine who walked away

01:13:18

And I would just conclude theologically and God the end of the day is sovereign But at least if that is what

01:13:25

I think it's saying there's nine people cured of leprosy who are in hell, right? So I'm ranting that much hotter for them right for denying

01:13:34

God even when a miracle happens Yeah, the Sun the Son of Man healed them and they was like, all right, cool. Thanks.

01:13:39

Bye. Yeah So, yeah, where do we go like right? I'm saying I write that's on some level of setup and sometimes

01:13:45

I do over talk and yes, I apologize But yeah, I want to hand it back to you. Just give me I'm trying to formulate what what the essence of What you're asking me is like you if you could put it in one sentence

01:13:58

Because there was a whole gospel. Yes Yes, cuz that you know, it's a passionate topic when it the emphasis on signs and miracles you think that could be over a

01:14:12

Danger, there could be a danger within the culture Bethel. There could be a dangerous overemphasis on the signs and healing

01:14:18

Yeah, we're almost the real real G If someone does get healed you gave glory to God, but it's a means to an end right getting right with God Which is understanding what is the righteousness of God that comes through faith a true biblical gospel

01:14:32

It's the biggest miracle of all of regeneration a spiritually dead person being brought to life Overshadowed and overlooked.

01:14:39

Yeah That is definitely a miracle a danger is that Yeah, and that's why

01:14:45

I'm like, can you really be a cessationist if you believe in salvation? but Biggest miracle.

01:14:52

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Those are always miracles So like I Hear what you're saying

01:15:02

I'll throw some caveats in and then I'll talk about the gospel. One of the caveats is God loves people more than we realize he gave us

01:15:10

Jesus, but sometimes he shows his love to people That will reject him

01:15:18

Just because he's good. Mm -hmm. And so he will heal people. He will heal those nine to demonstrate his love

01:15:28

Where the danger is for for Charismatics is

01:15:35

Not sharing the gospel When God heals people

01:15:40

I think we need to Be aware of that But I would say this

01:15:51

One of the things that I think old school reformers did well

01:15:58

That sometimes drops out of these conversations is The gospel message isn't just come and die to your sins because Jesus died on the cross

01:16:08

It is You get Jesus You get a new family

01:16:17

You get to stand before God you get heaven And there is real life and joy in the dying process to our sins

01:16:30

And like having that vision of One day the choices

01:16:39

I make will Possibly earn the praise of God and none of us know

01:16:45

How powerful and beautiful that will be and that compels me to die to my sin

01:16:56

And so I think sometimes we focus on the negative part of Yep, we were broken.

01:17:09

We're sinful and Forget the beauty of what God is doing in reconciling the world to in Christ, okay to himself and so And I think the the charismatics are trying to be like Let's look at this positive side of what

01:17:32

God's doing But sometimes we do it at the expense of dropping sin out of the equation, yes, which is

01:17:41

Dangerous because I appreciate you saying that too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, very encouraging um, and so it's got to be done in balance and like Scripturally and so we don't want to throw either way

01:17:58

But I I find This analogy very helpful so Imagine Two baseball coaches on on two different fields, right and it's

01:18:17

You know three balls two strikes bases are loaded You know the winning runs at the plate and one coach is yelling

01:18:26

Don't throw a ball and the other is saying focus on the mitt the other pitcher

01:18:33

Like we have to learn to Focus focus is the intentional lip elimination of distraction and our focus needs to become

01:18:43

Christ and how beautiful and glorious he is and I think that is where healthiness lies in bringing all of us together like I Know one on the charismatic side is gonna be like no,

01:18:58

I don't love that No one on the reform side is gonna be like wow, that's dumb And to make our message about the beauty of Christ and the holiness of Christ and the glory of Christ And I hope that's answering some questions or maybe it's a ramble of fun

01:19:15

It's a passion of mine is like all beauty that exists every beautiful sunset and and I tell guys because I help guys with porn type stuff is

01:19:27

Imagine if you could have sex with every woman you want for the rest of your life

01:19:34

When you get to heaven Heaven will be better and more pleasurable and that's why you say no to that and there is something so freeing

01:19:45

About seeing Jesus for who he is and I just want to say to this audience if you've forgotten

01:19:51

Who Jesus is look again? That's all you got to do to fall in love with this man, and He is worth it.

01:19:58

So yeah, okay. Yeah, okay. Yeah, and I would just One thing I would say too is that um in fact

01:20:05

I was just thinking this too when in the category in which Jesus discusses like the signs and miracles and such is

01:20:12

Luke 10 1119 where and he talks about the authority that he's given

01:20:17

Okay And he says I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome the power of the enemy and nothing will

01:20:23

Harm you but he says something that's always caught my attention and it says however Do not rejoice that the

01:20:28

Spirit submit to you but rejoice that your names are written in heaven Right, so right that's where I see the emphasis of Jesus where it's the emphasis like don't

01:20:40

You need like don't get caught up with us the ultimate signs and miracles or just these Some what some people equate whatever the supernatural experiences

01:20:48

We'll talk more about that when we discuss the New Age But there's an I see an emphasis what

01:20:53

Jesus is talking about. There's an emphasis on the gospel, which is even Separate from the healing signs and miracles, which is really the preaching of being made right with God Writing from your sin turning to Christ right being made right with God and being being born again

01:21:12

That's that's the emphasis because that is that is the ultimate miracle that people have to focus on and when you when you look at What are byproducts but which point to that?

01:21:23

That's where that's where things a lot of times can get nuanced So that's what I would say regarding that.

01:21:28

So I think we've actually covered a lot here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah This has been good and I've really appreciated getting you coming on and and hopefully this will be a

01:21:39

Good platform for a lot of conversation a lot of discussion. So right, let me go

01:21:44

Let's we'll go and wrap up this episode and I think we covered a lot of ground here And if you got hopefully if you guys enjoyed this episode go ahead and once again

01:21:53

Leave us a review on iTunes. Let us know what you thought and go ahead and like and share these episodes We definitely are interested in seeing what the feedback is gonna be on these episodes

01:22:01

So we will do one last episode here Kind of talking about which one of your passions are and we're interested to hear it helping charismatics avoid the

01:22:11

New Age or just your contention with the New Age as a whole and That should be interesting discussion, especially considering our talk that we have with Dorian Melissa They actually told me they're very excited to listen to see what you have to say

01:22:22

So all that being said we will talk to you guys next time on cultish and we will Talk to you guys in part for this conversation.