Why Hating on Jews is So Last Century: The Rise of the Spirit of Haman

Welcome to The Wrap Report with your host, Andrew Rappaport, where we provide biblical interpretation and application. This is a ministry of striving for eternity and the Christian podcast community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

Well, welcome to another edition of The Wrap Report. I am your host, Andrew Rappaport, the executive director of Striving for Eternity and the Christian podcast community, of which this podcast is a proud member.

The Rise of Anti-Semitism in the Church and Culture

We're here to give you biblical interpretations and applications for the Christian life. And we're going to deal with an application, oh, we're going to get in trouble. I know some of you are, some that are there, well, maybe not those that listen here because, but the regular listeners, but if you share this with friends, something tells me friends might not like this.

That's just a theory.

We'll see.

But we're going to deal with a topic of anti-Semitism. And I have with me a fellow board member with me on the Truth Fellowship Council. That is how I've, well, actually, I got to know Dr. Russell Fuller through a mutual friend we have, John Harris, back when he was, well, being, shall we say, kicked out of teaching at this, you know, you know, do we want to get into that?

Well, during COVID, you know, there were strange things going on and wokeness going through seminaries and whatnot, even by people who claim that that wasn't happening. And men who stood up for the truth paid the price and Dr. Fuller was one who stood up for truth, which those who are regular here, you know, that that immediately got me to be like, oh, I like him.

So being that we that's what we try to do here. And that's what the Truth Fellowship is about. And so you may be new to Dr. Fuller. And therefore, I'm going to let him first introduce himself. And before we get into this, and I'm going to tell you, he has, if you wanted to get seminary training, he's going to provide a way that you can get seminary training inexpensively and get good quality training at the same time.

None of the woke stuff in there. So, Dr. Fuller, welcome to The Wrap Report.

It's great to be here.

Well, you and I were just down in Tampa together. You preached a sermon on antisemitism. That was, I think, I think all of us on the board were begging you for your notes. Would that be fair to say?

I sent the paper to you.

Yeah. And so we're going to go over that. But first, just introduce yourself to my audience, people who may not know who you are, could learn a little bit more about you.

Yeah, I'm married to my wife, Donna, and we had three kids and we have seven grandchildren. That's what's important to know. Yeah. And I, of course, I taught at a major seminary, Southern Seminary, for 22 years.

And I went to for my Christian training. I actually went to rabbinic school. I went to Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati and also went to another one called Dropsy College, which used to be in Philadelphia.

So it is fair to say for for my audience, who knows if anyone tuning in, I'm from a Jewish background. It was funny because you and I in Tampa were sitting with John Harris and John had asked us whether we read the Talmud.

Yeah. And and I honestly could tell you that I didn't know another person that's I don't know any anyone that's not Jewish that has read the entire Talmud. And so when you said you did, I was like, wow, that's like, oh, I need to make a.

Correction. Not the whole, not the whole. OK. I read some Talmud.

Primary Sources, Original Research, and Reading Both Sides

Yeah. Because the Talmud is a rather large, it is an extremely large. That's right. It takes years to read. And so, yeah, I was I was the and just some of the the things that you know, your knowledge of the Talmud and Jewish thinking, I had known that you did quite a bit of study.

And so I think it was a great topic for you to cover with the conference on antisemitism. And so when we were putting the conference together and we were putting the book together and I'll be mentioning folks more about the book as we were working on it.

I mean, we're in the final edits, but we we've putting a book together for the Truth Fellowship and we have a couple chapters dealing with antisemitism. And originally I was like, well, I should I should take those like, you know, and then I was like, you know what?

I think I think, you know, Russell can handle it a lot better. So but but yes, let's let's get into specifically with antisemitism. Why? What? Well, let me ask, I guess, really to get the history. What got you into studying, you know, at a Hebrew university, studying Judaism?

What is your your expertise when you were teaching at the seminary level?

Right. When after the Lord saved me, I really wanted to study scripture. I had a really burning desire to know the scriptures. And I went to school and there I was going to be a business major. But I saw these guys walking around with Greek New Testaments under their arm.

And I'm like, I would love to read that Greek New Testament. So I took Greek, really enjoyed it. And I said, well, what's Hebrew like? And I took Hebrew and I'm like, oh, this is even better. And then I started thinking, you know, I'd really like to do this stuff.

I'd like to do Hebrew and Greek in particular. And so I was looking around at some of the great scholars in the past that I had a lot of respect for. And this one strange school kept coming up, Dropsy College.

And I'm like, what is Dropsy College? And find out it's a Jewish institution in Philadelphia. It's no longer there. It's now part of University of Pennsylvania.

So my records are there now.

By the way, I'll just say this, Mr. Annenberg, who basically big philanthropist in Philadelphia, he first purchased it, Dropsy College, and then when he decided to get rid of it, he just gave it to the University of Pennsylvania.

But there I was, I wanted to learn the language as well, especially Hebrew and some other Semitic languages. And so there I went for a year. But unfortunately, the school was going to close down because there was enough not enough students.

And so I ended up going to Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. Now, it's shut down. Seems like every school I go to has been shutting down lately.

Well, you know, I shut it down.

But the the area I was in shut down. Let's put it that way. School still going on.

Maybe you and I are bad news because my seminary has shut down as well, which is right. They train us and they go, that's it.

And I tell you what, I had such a great time learning Hebrew and other Semitic languages and other things, too, from rabbis, Jewish professors. They were great. They were great with me. And I couldn't have asked for anything better when it came to the languages.

No one knew it like they did. I mean, they knew the language and their knowledge of their topics. And the one thing they put in me that I really appreciate was they kept stressing to me, Russell, whatever you study in life, you've got to know the fundamentals of that subject.

And then by the fundamentals, what they meant was primary sources. Yeah, there's secondary sources. And yeah, maybe you need to look at some of those sometime. But if you don't know the primary sources well, like the Hebrew of the Old Testament, the Greek of the New Testament, and they just kept stressing that over and over again.

And I'm so thankful. So everything was primary scholarship with them. Everything. And secondary scholarship. Oh, yeah. You know, but it was all everything you had to argue was based on primary, not this professor says X or this guy says Y.

They didn't care. Can you show me from the text? You are that text right there. Show me. And so their emphasis on the primary text was the greatest thing they taught me. And I really like that.

Yeah, I think one of the things I valued in my seminary was that we had to read both sides of every argument. And when I say read, I think the minimum was about 1 ,500 pages of outside reading. So you had to read like 1 ,000 pages for the class.

And then you had about 1 ,500 pages outside of the required reading. But you got to choose. But they gave you a list of books of both sides. And so if people don't do that, it's extremely important. I remember I heard so much about the book written by Martin Luther on bondage of the will.

Right.

People are like, oh, Martin Luther just destroys Erasmus. So I wanted to read the book. And but I figured, let me first read Erasmus. And ever since then, people will be like, oh, Martin Luther destroyed Erasmus.

And I always say, have you read Erasmus? And they're like, no. I'm like, because if you read Erasmus, you'd realize he spent the first 75 pages of his book, Freedom of the Will, basically saying he has no idea why he's writing it.

It's just everyone says that, you know, Luther, I got to address Luther. So it's like he's writing this book. And he's just like he's basically saying he doesn't really have hard views on this stuff. You know, it's like I'm like Erasmus destroyed Erasmus.

It's not that Martin Luther did it. He teed it up for him.

Right.

But it is a thing where I think there's a lot of times people read things and when they don't go and check the original source, because when you do that, you realize a lot of times the original source, the person took out of context.

Right.

I use this with I just used it on my Apologetics Live. I had a guy who's not a believer, and his whole idea is to question everything. If you if you keep asking questions and he sounds a lot like someone else that I remember reading, which is Descartes.

And so many people look to Descartes and they say, you know, I think therefore I am, and they think that's a proof that God doesn't exist. And and have you read Descartes? Because Descartes actually his whole thing was he kept saying, if I keep asking questions, I'll get to the ultimate answer.

And he said, I think therefore I am. That was his he that's what convinced him that there was a God because he knows he exists. The fact that he thinks that means he exists. If he exists, there has to be a God.

He couldn't explain thinking without God, which is a presuppositional type of argument, which is what I was arguing for.

Right. Right.

But I've seen so many professing atheists who use that. And it's like, but they've never actually read the source. And the source says the exact opposite.

Anti-Semitism as a Political and Cultural Movement

Right.

So that's a very important thing to cover. So you you gave a basically a warning about the rising rise of anti-Semitism within the church, which I mean, it's been rising outside the church. I've been addressing this, you know, for the last three years, not heavily, but different times on this show.

However, the way you did it was very interesting because you dealt with a text that I'll be honest when I knew the topic of your message. But when you said this, you were talking about the spirit of Haman and I went, how is he going to I wasn't quite seeing how you were going to bring that together with what was going on in the church.

And I was like, wow, when I was done and when those videos come out, I'll try to get if the videos are out, I'll try to link it to the podcast. But when when you were done with that, I went, wow, that is a perfect illustration.

And I didn't see it going into it. So first, let's start with what is the warning that you see? What is the danger you see with the rise of anti-Semitism? And then we're going to eventually get to how Haman works into that.

OK, you know, I think it started more in the political sphere, the anti-Semitism. And here's the thing, just like with social justice, critical race theory, a lot of these worldly movements, you know, start in the university, the faculty lounge, you know, and what they do is they spread into the church.

And that's what was that's what I saw is happening here as well. It's starting to spread into the church. And with when it comes to let me talk about the society right now. You know, we have these ideologies and these ideologies match up real well with seeing Israel as the villain.

They to some on the left, especially, they see it as a settler colonial state, meaning they are coming in, settling and displacing the natives, as it were. And they see this as an apartheid state that has to be destroyed from the river to the sea as the statement goes.

Well, hold on. Explain the meaning of that, because I mean, people hear that and they they don't understand what that they don't see that for what it actually is, that the meaning of it.

Yeah.

When they talk about the river, they're talking about the Jordan River and the sea. They're talking about the Mediterranean Sea. And what they're saying is basically from the river to the sea, the Palestinian people need to be free of the Jewish oppression that they're under.

What they're saying is they want the what called the Holy Land or Israel to be Jew free. In other words, they want every Jew gone. And that's what they mean by the river to the sea. So it's a it's a little bit of a code saying we want every Jew out of the land of Israel.

And they don't necessarily mean displacement.

No, they don't. No, because, again, they would the you know, even if you go back to World War Two. And Hitler is at the gates of Moscow. And he meets with this imam in his in the right chancellor, chancellor.

I'm not saying that quite right in Berlin. And he's he's Muslim. And he's afraid that the Jews are all going to come to, you know, the Palestinian Palestine mandate at the time. He's asking Hitler to help him out.

And Hitler says, yo, don't worry, we'll we'll help you on that. And then he will help bring together some SS units made up of Muslims in order to, again, liquidate the Jews. So this is a yeah, they don't mind seeing another Holocaust.

It would be that I mean, Mein Kampf is being read in Hamas, you know, in Gaza. Mein Kampf was a book that was highly recommended.

I wanted you to point that out because of the fact that for people to understand when they're saying, well, Israel is committing genocide while they're chanting from the river to the sea, the the the chant, the river to the sea is calling for genocide.

So when these yes, white women, blue haired women sitting there on the streets and they're chanting for Hamas, you know, and they're saying river to the sea, they have no clue as they hold a sign saying we're against genocide.

Yeah, I mean, look, even if you go by Hamas's numbers, how many have died? You're still looking at a five figure sum. You're not looking at over 100000 people. Then you look over maybe to Ukraine and Russia.

I mean, the numbers there are off the charts. And yet nobody's complaining about that. Nobody's, you know. But, you know, with Israel, whatever they do, they're held to a standard that's absolutely impossible.

It's so it's true. It we see politically. I think that this ramped up a lot after October 7th politically because you have people who just are going with whatever the wokeness tells them to, you know, whatever they're supposed to march for today.

We're going for it, right?

Right.

I mean, just just think about this today as we're recording this, because who knows what they're going to do in the future. But today you have Greta Thornburg, the one who's made the news sailing across to come chastise America for their oil.

And we're going to we're going to be in a global crisis in 10 years. Well, it's it's been 10 years now. And what is she doing? You need to release the oil from Iran. I mean, don't tell me that they have actual principles.

That's right. And another issue that's very important is the immigration to America by Muslims.

Extremely.

And this is why the Democratic Party, both their ideologies, because their ideologies again are they really look at Israel as a white oppressor state. Then you have the immigration. And so where are the most of their votes going to come from, the Jewish people or the Muslims?

The answer is the Muslims, you see. And so the Democrats have, you know, basically abandoned Israel other than maybe Fetterman. I really can't think of anyone who is even Schumer who thinks he's the great protector of Israel, although he's not.

But but now it's starting to eat its way into the Republicans through people like Candace Owens, people like Tucker Carlson, Tucker Carlson, and now Megyn Kelly. Megyn Kelly. That's correct. These folks.

And and now through the Gruyper's, Nick Fuentes and so forth, it's getting into churches. I know a church not too far from my house here in Louisville where anti-Semitism is, you know, really on the rise in that church.

And the pastor has said to people, I'm not going to call them out. You know, I'm not going to call them out on this. And it's very sad, you know, and they're going the Gruyper route, a Gruyper route. Excuse me.

I need to say that right. And this is a great tragedy. If we understand scripture, and that's where I that's where I really want to go with my paper, of course, after setting up, showing you, first of all, that, you know, there's something called the Christian New Right.

They are completely anti-Semitic. And this is people like Joel Webben, J .D. Hall, Andrew Asker, Isker, and even some of those guys like in Utah, I think Eric Kahn, those kind of guys. And so the people on the New Christian Right, very anti-Semitic.

I mean, the stuff they say is just it's just awful. It's hard to believe that Christians can say the stuff that they're saying about Jews and Israel and so forth. And but also in mainstream, let's say, evangelicalism, you've got schools like Wheaton, Biola, Calvin, and they got professors who are very anti-Israel.

And so you see it's there. It's there. And it's making real heads. It's making real inroads into the church. And to me, I think if you look at Scripture, what Scripture says about the Jewish people, even from a Christian perspective, it condemns this stuff in the strongest language you can.

Imagine.

And if you'll do, we'll get into that. But that's what matters to me. What does Scripture teach us, you know, and say to us about how we should treat the Jews? As Christians. And I think these guys, either for clicks, for popularity, because I mean, that's the hot thing right now.

Anti-Semitism, that's kind of cool. That's kind of cutting edge. You know, it's pushing the envelope and all those kind of words, you know, and these guys are becoming they're getting quite a following on YouTube and these other places.

And what they're saying is, to me, completely anti-Christian. And so that's why I spoke out about it. And I'll continue to speak out on this issue.

Scripture's Teaching on the Jewish People

Yeah, I think that when this happened, I, and you tell me what your thoughts are, how this crept into the church. I mean, I think that there's probably some of the, you mentioned Tucker Carlson, Candace Owen, now Megyn Kelly.

And I do find something interesting with those three we mentioned. They were on, you know, on networks where they didn't have the complete freedom to say whatever they want.

All right.

And now they have it. And maybe what they're doing is speaking to those paying the bills.

Yes.

More than, you know, really having these concerns. I mean, that's not something that doesn't happen. So is it probable? I mean, how do you have people that can radically change? I mean, Tucker Carlson now seems far more sympathetic with, you know, orthodox Islam than he is with orthodox Christianity.

And he still claims to be a Christian. How do you make that transition? Is it just for the views? I mean, or is it that there's, I mean, we know that he was, you know, being encouraged to come and live in Qatar.

And but the fact that Al Jazeera, the Muslim news network, plays Tucker Carlson.

Oh, yeah.

He sees a big audience growing. So yes, this is more money coming in. And he, you know, I think that what you saw, you mentioned something about the Democrats when this war started, they, you know, there was a calculation, I think, that was made because people were like, how could Democrats, they depend on the Jewish vote.

This always puzzled me growing up, was the reason so many Jewish people would, especially the more liberal Jewish people, vote for the Democrats is not because they believe what the Democrats' arguments are or in their positions.

But I literally would hear often that, well, we vote for the Democrats because if they need us, they won't do another Holocaust.

Huh.

And I'm like, now I'm looking at it now, I'm going, really? How'd that work for you? Because they were like, I think they did that calculation because a lot of people were like, hey, in New York, they were saying, you know, you need that Jewish vote.

It's a big contingent. It's just that people didn't realize. Yeah, but they let so many Muslims in that that Muslim vote is now bigger.

Correct. And that's it.

And so I think, though, I can understand it in the world as it comes in the church. I think my what I observed is guys that are that got very into covenant theology. Now, just for the record, I'm a dispensationalist.

I don't believe you are. But so this isn't something that's on all covenant theology, but there were those who were who seemed like they were trying to make an issue that they're like, there are no Jews.

Like, I've heard people say there is no Jewish people today. They don't exist. There is no Israel. Israel is not God's chosen people. And and so I think because of a theological reason, and I'm not saying that the covenant theology is right or wrong in this.

I'm just saying that I think some took that and started, you know, extrapolating views that I think are anti-biblical into, you know, to say, well, we we are Israel and the Israel that's in Israel doesn't exist or shouldn't exist.

And that's how I saw it kind of start morphing in. I don't know how you saw it. How do you how did you see it kind of start getting in? Like, what do you think was the gateway into the church for the anti-Semitism?

You know, that's a good question. I don't know for sure, but if I had to guess, I think they saw the success of Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens. And I think and, you know, the Groper movement and it's growing and they're sort of plugging in there.

So I think I think it's money.

I really do.

I think at the end of the day, it's the the clicks, the money. I really believe that's what's driving it quite a bit. Now, theologically, what they want to do is they want to sort of scapegoat dispensationalism.

Oh, big time dispensationalism is why we have this problem of, you know, you've got to support Israel no matter what they do. You've got to support the Jews no matter what they do, which that's not what I'm saying.

That's not what you can criticize Israel. I mean, it's not I mean, but let's be fair. I mean, let's not when you say they're committing genocide. Are you kidding me? They've gone to all sorts of ways of trying to protect noncombatants from being killed.

They could. I mean, we've even got there's a guy at West Point who's one of the foremost authorities in urban warfare. And Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on Earth. And he reckons that the it's like for every combatant, it's like a combatant, a noncombatant and a half that's being killed because this is an unheard of.

Because what Israel's doing, I mean, they're really trying to avoid, you know, killing civilians.

Yeah.

But, you know, people don't want to hear him say that. You know, they wanted to say, no, it's genocide. They're murdering people. They are not murdering people. And by the way, if the Jews wanted to do that, if Israel wanted to do that, by the way, they could nuke them if they wanted to.

Yeah.

I mean, they could they could literally drop an atomic bomb on them.

Well, they probably wouldn't because that would blow back on them. Literally, yeah, a little bit. Yeah, a little too close.

You get my point. They could annihilate us and they could kill every last one of them.

Tell me any country, you know, that in war warns the enemy before an attack.

Oh, yeah.

Like we did. Like, I'm sure we sent all kinds of notices to Nazi Germany, but we were going to come bomb them by day and by night. And here's what we're going to hit this time. And listen, we hit more houses than we hit businesses, you know?

Yeah.

And if you go over to Japan, oh, LeMay, the way they were bombing Tokyo and these places, I mean, they were it wasn't even, you know.

Yeah.

They were just taking out whoever they could take out.

I mean, the the way they went about warfare, it is so precise to, you know, think about. Folks may have forgotten about this when they went to the phones.

Yeah.

The pagers.

Yes.

I mean, so people don't realize that was 10 years in the making.

Yeah.

10 years to to plan this out so that when they if they ever needed to do it, the only people they would affect are the people who are the bad guys.

Correct.

But yet I've heard Tucker Carlson say that was attacking civilians. That was the most precision strike against leadership than Hezbollah that no one you couldn't do. You couldn't hardly walk up to him with a gun and do better.

Maybe their son was standing a little bit closer. That's right.

No, it was. I think there was pretty rare. There was. I think the issue is there was a daughter that was holding the pager.

OK.

So I think but it was like one person.

Yes.

And I don't think she died. If I remember correctly, she was injured. But you talk about precision.

Precision, Propaganda, and the Israel-Hamas Conflict

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Oh, you know, they're going out of their way. OK, but that's enough of the politics. But yeah, I mean, it's coming in the church, however it's coming in, whether it's coming in through theological or maybe it's just that maybe you're right that there was people who are looking for the clicks, looking for the money.

I mean, look, when I found out Jordan Hall was tied into this, there was no doubt. I mean, Jordan has been a clickbait hog as long as I've known him. He'll do anything to get attention for himself, OK?

And he's a man who is disqualified from ministry and should not be out there doing what he's doing by his own admission. Well, his own admission that he's disqualified. He just doesn't call this ministry.

So he feels he he's justified. But the reality is that what you see is this is in the church. However, it it worked its way in. The concern now is, OK, we have this in the church. How widespread of a problem?

And because we want to get to your view of Haman, how does Haman play into this? So how widespread do you see this? Is it affecting seminaries? Is it affecting mainline churches? And and then what I want you to do is transition into what you talked about with this spirit of Haman.

OK, it's definitely in the mainline churches. The mainline churches are all anti-Israel, anti-Semitic. They really are. So the mainline churches, they're very far advanced in this area. I think in our evangelical churches, some are definitely influenced by this.

I think on the new Christian right, there's an influence and it's getting some of the younger folks. But I still think if an election were held tomorrow, let's say, and I'm just going to use Trump, but let's say Trump.

OK, if Trump is held. Again, I still think he gets, even with all his support of Israel and so forth, I still think Trump's going to get 80 percent, 70 percent maybe of evangelical votes. So I don't think it's made in the evangelical community when it comes to.

I don't know how to describe them, the more moderate ones. OK, yeah, it's infecting their little bit. And then on the other end, on the other end with the new Christian right. But I think a lot of folks are still pretty strong.

That's mostly older folks like me. The younger folks is who I really worry about. It's the younger folks being influenced on these issues. And but I think. The church has got to be on guard. It's just like social justice.

It was a movement in the world spreads into the church. Well, this time it's another movement of the world spreading in the church. The reason I call it the spirit of Haman is because Haman. You know, he didn't just hate Mordecai.

He wanted to kill all of Mordecai's people, the whole Jewish race. And you can see a couple of times, like I mentioned in my paper in Psalm 83, it talks about another coalition that wants to completely destroy Israel, you know, completely wipe them out.

And I really believe I remember one time I was talking to one of my Jewish professors and somehow we started talking about, you know, sort of this issue. And I looked at him and I'll never forget the look on his face because he's very liberal.

OK, he didn't believe the Bible in any way.

And he's a professor at a Jewish school.

And I knew I was going to. I knew I was going to shock him when I was about to say, because he doesn't believe anything I'm about to say. When I told him, I said, sir. I'm going to tell you. I believe Satan is behind this.

And the look of it is a look of shock. But, you know, I think. He really thought about that. And I think he sort of understood where I was. He didn't believe in Satan. But yet, how do you explain down through the years the many times?

I mean, I could go through a little bit of a list with you of where they try to kill you. I mean, like massacre, Jews, pogroms and so forth, where they try to annihilate the Jews. Now, think about this, Andrew.

You've got the Jews are spread out all over the world after especially the Bar Kokhba revolt around 125, 130 in there, you know, AD we're talking. They're scattered all over the world. And yet people are trying to destroy them.

They can't get destroyed. God won't let them. But yet, time and time again, people try it. I think it's I think it's Satan. I honestly and I think right now what's going on in our churches, I think it's the work of Satan.

So I I call it the spirit of Haman. But I think it's demonic. I actually think it's demonic. Now, I'm not saying you can't disagree. I mean, do I have my differences with liberal Jews in America? Oh, yeah, sure I do.

Do I have differences with Israel on certain things?

Of course.

But do I hate them and want to see this happen to them and that? No, no, not at all. And do I do I see the the Jews as somehow uniquely evil? No, I do not. I do not. As a matter of fact, you know, they make up.