John Tucker Interview (Part 2)

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, �But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn�t for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we�re called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

Here�s our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.

The Social Gospel and Proclaiming Christ Crucified

Social gospel, and now you have lots of these movers and shakers in big evangelicalism pushing this agenda. Random thoughts about social gospel, feeding the poor, city outreaches, maybe at the expense and resources of the real gospel, just random thoughts.

Well, I don�t believe that there is such a thing as the social gospel in the context of there being some unique presentation that�s unique to that particular environment. I think we proclaim Christ and Him crucified to all groups and demographics.

We certainly want to take care of the poor. That�s part of our service to Christ. We�re doing those things for those people as a reflection of our commitment to Jesus Christ. This emphasis on the idea that somehow the church may not be a certain demographic or a higher percentage, I think as long as Christ is being proclaimed, that is what�s supposed to happen and Christ will build His church.

For example, in Beloit, we�re a predominantly white community. It�s difficult for us to change a message in order to somehow attract a particular demographic. My sense is that if a person is looking to know the Lord Jesus Christ, it doesn�t matter whether the church is white, black, red, green, yellow, they�re going to go where Christ is being proclaimed and be fed that way.

I think when we begin to isolate it in that context, we take away the power of the message and we make the emphasis very pragmatic as opposed to just proclaiming Christ.

Sinclair Ferguson and His Ministry

I�m just going to say some words and you give me just whatever knee-jerk reaction you want. I�ll make it easy. We�re friends. Yes, we are. All right.

Sinclair Ferguson. Amazing. Just a powerful preacher. I�ve been really blessed. The whole Christ has had a profound impact on me. I�ve really enjoyed his ministry, hearing him preach. It�s just one of those guys that you just can�t get enough of, in my opinion.

Excellent.

All right. This one will be fun. It just popped in my mind. The inner spirit Quaker just made me think of this. I�m sorry, Mike. I�ll pray for you.

Celebrity Christianity and Kanye West

Kanye West. Oh, brother. You know, again, celebrity Christianity. Someone used to say to a Puritan, �Did you hear old Joe got saved Then they�ll say, �We�ll see. That�s how I�m looking at it right now.

I think it�s one of those, �I hope it�s real. I hope it�s true. We�ll see what fruits produce.

The one who�s speaking into Kanye�s life, in terms of pastoralism, is a man named Adam Tyson. He�s just adjacent to the Master�s University in California. It�s been interesting to see what Adam has kind of gone through as he�s tried to preach to him.

Can you imagine, Bob, you�re preaching and somebody comes to you at the door and you�re trying to greet everyone and say hello and saying hi to widows and other people. Then, all of a sudden, you turn and Tom Brady�s standing there.

�Hi, Pastor. Can I talk to you a little bit after service That�s essentially what happened in California, except it�s Kanye West and it�s Adam Tyson at a church about our size. Kanye wants to know the Bible.

So far, I think Adam has done a good job of trying to make Christ central and trying to kind of lead that. I think that would give both a platform for Adam and probably lots of possible pitfalls as well, do you think?

Yes, I agree. How would you advise Adam if he called you and said, �Lawyer, doctor, pastor, farmer, equestrian. What else do you like to do? Banjo. I like to sail. Sail. Yes. Before we go to the Kanye thing, tell us about the class you took in Maine.

That�s interesting.

Yes. This past summer, I took a class in Maine at the wooden boat school on how to build a wooden boat. That was enjoyable. How did it go? It went great. Did it float? It does. Yes. We built a wooden boat.

It was amazing. It was a great, neat school and a great environment and got to go sailing and worked on a wooden boat. Leroy Gibbs style, right? Indeed. That�s right.

Back to Kanye. Yes. How would you advise Adam if he were to give you advice?

Not to recognize his celebrity status. Treat him like anybody else in the congregation. Don�t elevate him beyond his maturity. Wait and see. Wait and see. Teach him. Make sure that he�s teachable. He has a teachable spirit.

Incorporate him to the regular practice of the church and hopefully he�ll do that.

First Corinthians 15, it says, �For I deliver to you as of first importance what I also received that Christ the Messiah died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures.

I�m sure Adam is saying, �This message here, when the microphone comes to you, Kanye, this is what you say. You don�t tell people about progressive sanctification and Keswick theology and all this other stuff.

This is your message and everything should relate back to this Jesus who dies for sinners. That�s right. I thought Adam would probably be given the royal treatment and flown on Lear jets and stuff to these different events, but when I listened to his interview, they said he flew on Spirit Air to Detroit to speak for the Whitney at the Aretha Franklin Pavilion.

I don�t know what that is. It takes time to get to the more celebrity. United and American and Southwest.

Assurance of Salvation in Young Children

When you said the Puritans would say something about we�ll see, tell us pastorally how you would talk to some of our young parents here and their children come up and say, �Daddy, I believe in Jesus. �Mommy, I believe in Jesus.

How do you figure out what to do between assurance of salvation for a three-year-old who�s maybe mimicking the faith of the parent, but not discouraging because we want to encourage our young people.

What�s the pastoral advice you give?

I think in terms of that dynamic, the parent ought to be attentive to what the child is saying and teach them and develop those desires. One of the things that we do at the church is we catechize the children, and that helps with regards to some of the kids who have made early professions of faith in that way to see if there�s going to be a development and a desire to keep learning those things.

I think it�s one of those things that you begin to really see in their teen years whether or not that was a sincere commitment and there was a really work of regeneration. I think the parents have to be wise in that regard and not make assumptions and wait and see whether or not the child has really been born again.

It�s difficult, isn�t it, because you want you�re so happy for the news, right? I don�t want to say, �No, you don�t or, �You�re too young or anything like that, but I also want to be very measured and not be the kind of dad who says, �Well, I know my child made the profession at 12, and then now they�re off doing all kinds of unrighteous things in accordance with 1 Corinthians chapter 6 verse 9, and this unrighteous behavior as a pattern shows that they will not inherit the kingdom, and you just have to be very careful.

I think engendering that enthusiasm, yes, good job, way to believe, keep believing. Don�t we say that regularly? Absolutely, right.

Why do we say that? To demonstrate that there is that real work of regeneration, keep trusting, keep believing in the finished work of Jesus Christ. One of the things I get concerned about is when a parent says to me in regards to their children, �Well, they made a profession of faith when they were four and that�s what they rely on.

They go back to that. That�s kind of the old idea of, �I went forward at church camp or something along those lines. They�re not measuring. They�re not looking in terms of the development of a desire, the sanctification, the working in their life of the Holy Spirit and the evidences of that.

It�s fascinating to me to see what happens when that child who professes faith gets a driver�s license and goes through puberty, or puberty first probably these days and then driver�s license. Correct, yeah.

Then we�ll have the test.

We will indeed, yeah. I mean, even the Amish in the area that we live in, they have a thing called the rumschnig. And so they. Do you guys know what that is? That is the craziest thing ever. So it�s where the children basically have a wild period of their life.

They�re in the church. They�re not in the church yet, but they�re given this type of wild season where they go out and they just live licentious lives and to reckless abandon, and then they get to make a decision after this period of rebellion as to whether or not they want to come and be a part of the Amish church and reenter that community.

So we don�t want that, of course. Right.

And this, by the way, when it comes to professions of faith of children, this is a good reminder for all the parents here to keep teaching the gospel over and over and over because if you assume the gospel, then they�re going to just forget the gospel, et cetera.

That�s so well said because that is the key. I mean, I think that�s important too for the parents then to understand the gospel. You know, Spurgeon would say that we don�t want to quench the spirit in a child�s life.

And he was very concerned about that in the context of making certain if a child didn�t make a profession of faith that the parents understood that they wanted to foster that, but they also needed to keep Christ in front of the child, making certain that they understood that their faith is in the finished work of Christ and keep living that in front of them rather than making their point of reference when they got saved, which I think is something a parent will oftentimes do.

They make that the measure. Oh, he was saved at church camp when he was seven rather than seeing this child developing a desire and love for Jesus Christ.

Right. And there is a time that God knows always because he�s omniscient and he�s causing all this that we move from death to life, that he makes us alive, that regeneration happens, justification happens.

There is a time in our life, but sometimes we don�t recognize it, especially in light, let�s say, of a congregation like this or the church that you pastor because they�re always hearing about Jesus and they�re always making that affirmation.

They�ve never really denied it and so they�re looking for some kind of major experience and light�s going on in Damascus Road, the Damascus Road experience. Right. But they don�t have that, but they�re still trusting.

Exactly. Yeah. And I also like it that when I have children or young people who I say, �Keep believing that�s good advice for a Christian too. So if they�re not saved, I tell them to keep believing and I mean with saving faith.

And if they are saved, well, the Spirit of God translates that to keep believing and trusting in the Lord Jesus because we walk by faith, not by sight. That�s right. That�s right. All right. Do you have any questions for me?

How are you doing today, Mike? My leg hurts today. Let�s see. I have several other questions, but I think we�re going to do this instead. We�ve got about 10 minutes left. Congregation, do you have any questions for John?

He�s going to be preaching. Before the questions, tell us about tonight�s message.

A Lawyer’s Perspective on Romans

Yeah. So I�m doing a message, a lawyer�s perspective of the Book of Romans. And so I�m taking a look at Paul�s kind of polemic argument that he makes. Paul had a very keen, logical mind. He was a linear thinker, A to B to C to D, and I love that about Paul.

And the way he presents his arguments in the Book of Romans is in that fashion. And so as Dr. Clark reminded us, we have guilt, we have grace, we have gratitude. Those are the three portions of the Book of Romans.

And so Paul, in a very prosecutorial way, takes the issue of man�s guilt, mankind�s guilt. He then resolves the guilt in the context of the righteousness of Jesus Christ. And as a result of that, we have a group of people who are exceedingly grateful and live for the Lord, evidencing the transformation that�s taken place.

So that�s what I�m going to be talking about tonight.

By the way, just as my father would say, between us girls here, he always said that to us as boys. I don�t know why he did that. Is that a Nebraska thing? It might be. That never happened in Ohio. Oh, it did not?

Okay. John and I were driving around in Ohio, probably on the way to the Rock and Hall of Fame that I didn�t want to go to, but you made me go. Yeah, yeah.

Funny how that happened. You know, I had never been. I�ve lived in Ohio all my life, and I had never been to the Rock and Hall of Fame. I was a good Christian Baptist boy. Did you tell anybody at church we did that?

Yeah, yeah. People know. Good, because I put it all over Twitter.

They really know now. I thought to myself, we�re in the car, and you�re talking to a client, and you�re like, �Excuse me, Mike, I have to take this call and the cone of silence kind of went over you, but I could still hear some, and I just thought, I�m so glad he�s not after me as a lawyer, because I thought, he�s nice, he�s kind, warm, sweet to kids, loves his wife and children, but I thought, don�t be on the receiving end of John�s displeasure in a court case.

That�s what I thought.

Sometimes you just have to be stern, right? Yeah, you do. Otherwise, it makes it very difficult. Yeah, so you have to deal with people and make certain they understand how the cows eat the cabbage.

Masculinity, Conviction, and Lawyerly Courage

How does that work in this day and age where feminization has, it rules the world? We�re all affected by it. We don�t want to be, and of course, we believe, you know, the disclaimers now, probably because of feminism, I have to say, we�re all image bearers, et cetera, et cetera, but even now, you know, effeminacy is required in men, right?

Men talk differently, they act differently, we shouldn�t be harsh or bitter or anything, but how difficult is it to be a lawyer in an age where they want you to be effeminate as a man?

It is difficult. You know, the operization of the American male is very problematic, and this idea that a man can�t be a man in the context of how God designed him, and oftentimes, I�ll get this, people will say, �Well, you always sound like a lawyer.

I think I just sound like a man in terms of I�m a person of conviction, I want to be persuasive and clear-headed about things, so it is difficult. People don�t like that. They think you�re angry, they think you�re upset, they think you�re bitter and things of that nature.

No, I�m just taking care of business.

The day and age we live in now, the only masculine talk that you get these days outside of some pulpits? Noco Radio. No, I was thinking sports talk, right? We let men be men there, right, and they talk about, you know, athletes and other things, so sometimes I just have to listen to WEEI or 98 .5 just to think, �Men need to be men.

They do. I love femininity, but I love it in women. Amen.

I agree 100 percent.

Church Discipline, IRS Pressure, and Legal Risk

Any questions for John, your congregation? Yes?

As far as I�m aware, the pastor�s practice is minded and repulsive, even regarding politics. How do you think that can change that?

Well, I hope it changes. Would you summarize the question for the audio, please?

So the president issued somewhat of a directive with regard to churches and pastors not being penalized or targeted by the IRS if the pastor speaks his mind and basically proclaims what the word says, which is obviously the trend in other areas, other countries.

Canada, for example, it�s considered hate speech if you were to even just read certain portions of the Bible. I think it�s a great thing. I appreciate the fact that the president has done that. I think the persecution that�s coming to the church is going to come in that form.

It�s going to be financial in nature. We�re going to have a two-front war in that regard. We�re going to have an internal battle with Christians who refuse to take a stand and accept what God�s word says.

We�re seeing that with regard to some of the issues pertaining to homosexuality and those issues. And then the money issue, of course. Churches have tax-exempt status in a variety of areas, and that�s going to be a very significant battle when the money starts leaving the church is what will happen.

And as an attorney, what I�m seeing, too, one of the things I work with a lot are churches and Christian schools who are now having to go back and revise and revamp their church bylaws and their organizational documents.

And for the first time in a long time, they�re actually having to think about what they actually believe. The courts require that you articulate your religious conviction and belief sincerely, that there�s references, that there�s a basis and a foundation for it, in order for it to be considered a sincerely held religious belief or conviction.

Remarkably, a lot of church governing documents, their statements of faith, their bylaws are nebulous in these areas. They don�t address issues regarding what is sin, what is salvation, what is our position on homosexuality, is homosexuality a sin, things of that nature.

And it�s been interesting to watch churches struggle through actually having to go back to God�s Word and look at those things. I�ll go to board meetings, I�ll sit there and I�ll say, �Well, what does the Bible say about this

�We haven�t thought about that. �Well, I think we should if you�re a church and we begin to work through that process. So I�m glad that the president�s doing that. You know, the problem is that that�s just one man.

That can change when that changes. Oh, absolutely, yeah, I mean there�s been the whole issue, the whole, the parsonage exemption was challenged recently and the courts ultimately upheld that as a legitimate allowance, the parsonage allowance.

So those things are being challenged and I think that�s where the persecution is going to come from. Well, church discipline is a huge area, that�s one area that I�ve dealt with as an attorney because a church who decides to discipline exposes themselves to a variety of legal claims, primarily defamation.

And so a church begins the steps of discipline and what ends up happening is that they get to that final step where it�s brought to the church. A letter is sent out and this is typically what generates the claim is that the letter then will be considered to be libelous, it�s written and they�ll say that the person is, for example, engaged in some sin that�s identified, they�re called to repentance, they�re told that the church is going to be gathering to exercise discipline and churches can get exposed.

In fact, insurance companies will ask churches, �Are you engaged in church discipline Because they know that those types of activities generate claims that go against the policy and so that�s a big deal.

So churches will actually back away from doing what the Bible says in order to avoid the legal exposure and a reservation of rights on an insurance claim. Well, they have to make certain that their governing documents are very clear.

This is why church membership is important too. If a person is not a member of the church, the church really doesn�t have jurisdiction over the person and so that becomes a difficult issue. So when a person voluntarily submits themselves to the authority of the church and the elders in that way, that�s significant and you want to make certain that that�s happening and that your governing documents speak to that issue and what the process is.

You need to have a clearly delineated process and if you follow the scripture and just incorporate that into your church bylaws, you will have that, but you�ve got to follow it. You�ve got to do it. Absolutely.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Excuse me. One or two more. Charlie and then Bob. Well, that�s amazing. That�s great. So I had a� Repeat it, please. Oh, so how many cases or church issues reference social media?

So you�re saying using social media in the context of litigation to prove a point? So yeah, well, it can be significant. I recently had a case involving a Christian organization and a person and this is one of those fun moments when you get to be a lawyer.

So you�re cross-examining, we�re in an arbitration, the parties had agreed to come together in that context and so unbeknownst to them, we had gotten on the internet into the person�s Facebook page because the person was claiming a certain series of events and through the Facebook page, we were able to prove that those events never occurred because it was impossible because she wasn�t physically where she said those things took place on those dates.

We were able to match up her location with her Facebook post. And so, yeah, social media is a big deal in the context of that issue, so be careful what you put on social media in that way. Okay, lastly, Bob, please.

Yeah, sure. So his question was am I a full-time lawyer and pastor and the answer is yes. I�m a full-time pastor and I�m also a full-time lawyer. My practice is not as robust as it once was. I�ve pared it back.

I used to travel extensively. My client base was more national. I�ve kind of tried to more focus on local issues, so I�m not on the road quite as much. The church has been very gracious to me in that regard, so I am bivocational and will continue to do that because I want to keep a footprint or a presence in the areas that I�m working.

Favorite legal dramas would be probably A Few Good Men, My Cousin Vinny, and I don�t know. The Firm. The Firm, yeah. So those would be some of my favorite�actually, To Kill a Mockingbird is probably my favorite legal movie.

That�s�the courtroom scene in that movie is really phenomenal, so, yeah. I think we have time for one more. Yes, Bob. They�re 11 angry men. Well, there�s 11 guys in a jury deliberation, and they�re fighting over the issue and the case, and they get angry with each other in terms of just how that process is working out.

I think so, yeah. I mean, a lot of those movies are. I mean, they demonstrate the fact that we�re falling, and we tend to act out in that way.

See, John, this is why when we do Q &A, I ask most of the questions, because they just ask about movies.

Yeah, well, hey, that�s fun, too, you know?

I enjoy that. Is there a cinematic Hall of Fame someplace you could take me to?

I don�t know. I mean, we�ve been to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, we�ve been to the Basketball Hall of Fame. Yeah, we went a couple days ago. Yeah, so when you come back out, I�ll take you to the Football Hall of Fame.

All right. Good. And we�ll just keep hitting the things. Okay.

Well, dear congregation, thanks for coming today. We�re going to pray in just a second. John will be preaching tonight at 5 .30. It�ll be kind of a pared-down service, a song or two. You�re going to preach for 50 minutes or so?

What, 45, 50? 45, 50 minutes, yes. Tell me, what do you think about preachers preaching 60, 70 minutes, and all that? What�s your strategy?

You know, I think it depends on the congregation. You know, there are some men who can hold a congregation�s attention that way. And so I just think it�s some of those�I think you press the envelope when you begin to get into that realm.

People just naturally attend to you. I mean, I sat one time and listened to Steve Lawson preach for an hour and a half. And when it was over, I didn�t realize it had been an hour and a half. He�s just one of those guys who can kind of captivate you that way.

But I do think that we have to be considerate of the folks. Okay, good.

Pardon me? It depends on the chairs. And it depends on the chairs. I once saw an ad for a company that was selling furniture for churches. And they were showing the pew chairs that were so comfortable that the problem would be people�and it showed them sleeping.

So, don�t buy these chairs that people might sleep in the pews. So, that was really interesting. All right, good. Well, I�m going to go ahead and wrap up. I�m so thankful that you�re here. You�ll be here for the service today and then tonight preaching.

Would you close us in prayer, John?

Sure. Heavenly Father, Lord, we just rejoice that we can gather here today with folks of like precious faith. It�s wonderful that even though separated by distance, we have a common bond in Christ. Thank you for the ministry here.

Thank you for Mike and his faithfulness to the word. Thank you for the people here who have a heart for the word, who love the Lord Jesus Christ. And we praise your name this morning. Thank you for our salvation.

Thank you for the hope that we have in Jesus Christ. May you be pleased with our worship today. May you open our hearts and minds to receive the word that you�ve given Mike to give to us. We pray in Christ�s name.

Amen. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life-transforming power of God�s word through verse-by-verse exposition of the sacred text.

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at 6. We�re right on Route 110 in West Boylston. You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.