Discipleship and Faith - Part 1 (Video) — Zac Poonen

Discipleship and Faith as the Core Teachings of Jesus

We're thinking our subject is, you know, discipleship and faith. The reason I chose that subject was because those are the two most important things that Jesus spoke about. If you read the Gospels, he spoke about discipleship and he spoke a lot about faith.

Very very important. And unfortunately, most Christians and preachers don't emphasize discipleship. And even faith is limited to healing or miracles, when that's not the main purpose of faith. In fact, that's not even the correct definition of faith.

And so many of these people who claim to have faith and they deceive people and so many people who imagine they have faith, they experience disappointment and they can even lose their faith, what they call their faith.

So we need to understand these things properly. And I'll tell you from my own experience of 60 years as a believer, that there are very very few people who are proclaiming the absolute truth. And the reason is not because it's not written in the scriptures.

They don't read the scriptures carefully and properly. They don't take the whole of scripture. So let me begin with one verse you must always bear in mind and that's 2nd Timothy in chapter 3. In 2nd Timothy chapter 3, verse 16 and 17, there's some important truths here that we must bear in mind.

All Scripture Is Inspired and Profitable

All scripture, and the word all is important, that means the whole of scripture, Old Testament and New Testament, is inspired by God and profitable for teaching. So people may say, Brother Zach, you emphasize the New Covenant, so why do we need to read the 39 books of the Old Testament?

There is a lot of difference between Old Covenant and the Old Testament books of the Bible. The Old Covenant which God made with Israel on Sinai through Moses, that has been abolished when on the day of Pentecost, it was valid up to the day of Pentecost, and when the Holy Spirit came, he replaced the law.

Moses went up to the mountain and brought the law down for Israel. Jesus went up to heaven and sent the Holy Spirit. We are not under the law now. The law said, don't murder. The Holy Spirit says, don't get angry.

So it's not that we've come to a lower standard, we have come to a much higher standard. The law said, don't commit adultery. The Holy Spirit says, don't lust after women. So everything is a higher standard.

The law said, love your friends and your brothers, and the Holy Spirit says, love your enemies also. So we must recognize this. The Old Covenant has been abolished because it was too low a standard. It was like a kindergarten.

Galatians chapter 3 says, the people of the Jews were like the Israelites were children, whereas we are sons, mature sons. That's what God wants us to be. And that means we had to behave like sons. There's a difference between those in the kindergarten and those we are in college.

You expect a lot of difference between a child of yours who's in kindergarten and a child of yours who's in college. And that's exactly what God expects of us. You know, Jesus said that John the Baptist was the greatest prophet that ever lived, the greatest man that ever lived from the time of Adam up to the time of Jesus.

But he said the least person who enters the kingdom of God has got the potential to be even greater than John the Baptist. How is that? Because John the Baptist did not have the Holy Spirit inside him.

He only had the Holy Spirit upon him. And when the Holy Spirit is inside us, Jesus said, from our innermost being, rivers of living water will flow, purifying the inside and then blessing others. Whereas in the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit was upon people like water flowing over their head.

It never cleaned up the inside. It didn't clean up the inside of Samson or David, even though they were anointed. Even John the Baptist, the most anointed prophet, when he was in prison, he lost his faith.

He had seen the Holy Spirit coming upon Jesus in the baptism. And then when he's in prison and Jesus doesn't deliver him from there, he loses his faith and says, oh, are you really the Messiah? Or do we have to look for another?

But that will never happen to a man who is filled with the Holy Spirit inside, even if he's in prison for years. There's so many great saints who have experienced things like that. So the Old Covenant is abolished because it was it could not accomplish what God wanted to accomplish in a man.

And the New Covenant, the real fullness of the Holy Spirit accomplishes. And I want to say, brothers, that that is why there's so much confusion about the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the world today.

The devil has done that so that people will either be scared of seeking for the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the fullness of the Spirit, or they will get some cheap counterfeit and remain happy. The devil is happy with both of them.

Those who got a cheap counterfeit and babble something and called it tongues and the others who are scared of that and stay away from it completely, well, they've fallen over two sides of the cliff and he's happy with both of them.

The Old Testament as God’s Word

But let me I was emphasizing the difference between Old Covenant and New Covenant. But the Old Testament books of the scripture, 39 books, are God's word. And we must read them and meditate on them. And we don't live under the law, but all scripture, 2 Timothy 3, 16, is inspired by God or the margin of my Bible says the real word here is breathed by God.

God breathed into this, these words. And therefore, I can, it's the Holy Spirit is the breath of God. And here it says the scripture, the Bible is also breathed by God. That means inspired by the Holy Spirit.

So if I receive it in the spirit, it's the breath of God that's going to come into me, into my heart. A lot of people, when they read the Bible, they just have it in their mind, doesn't seem to enter their heart.

And that's why their life doesn't change. But all scripture is breathed by God. And what does it accomplish? First of all, it teaches me what is right. And it corrects me when I'm wrong, reproves me. That means rebukes me.

If you have never read a scripture that's rebuked you, well, I would say you're not reading the scripture properly. It says scripture is profitable for reproof. There's not a single child in the world that's grown up properly without being corrected.

No, a child that's not corrected will never grow up properly. Correction, every father who loves his child will correct. And God loves his children and corrects us. In fact, in Revelation chapter 3 and verse 19, it says, Jesus said in Revelation 3, 19, those whom I love, I reprove, rebuke, and discipline.

Therefore, be zealous and repent. So Jesus says, if I love someone, I will rebuke him. I will discipline him. I want to ask you, have you experienced that? I've experienced it so many times, both in the discipline in my life, sometimes by knocking me down with a fever for a couple of days, God's trying to speak to me.

And sometimes when I'm reading the scripture, mostly through the scripture nowadays, in the early days when I didn't listen to scripture so much, God would correct me through earthly trials. But he rebukes.

And if you asked me when I was newly born again, 60 years ago, how do you know Jesus loves you? I'd say, well, he died for me on the cross. Now that I'm a mature Christian, if you ask me, how do you know Jesus loves you?

I'd say, according to Revelation 3, 19, he rebukes me. He disciplines me. He's my father. If I'm slightly going astray, one degree off the track, he corrects me. That's how I know he loves me. I hope you know that too.

Have you experienced that? When you go one degree away from the straight path, have you experienced the Holy Spirit saying, that's not the way? Turn around. See, in Isaiah chapter 30, that's a great verse.

If you turn with me to Isaiah chapter 30 and verse 20 and 21. This is really a new covenant experience. Isaiah 30, verse 20 and 21. It's very important to understand that this is what discipleship means.

Isaiah chapter 30, it says here in the middle of verse 30, your teacher will no longer hide himself. Our teacher is Jesus Christ. In the Old Testament times, in old covenant, they could not see God. In fact, God told Moses, Moses wanted to see God's glory.

And God said to him, you can't see my glory. You can't see me and live. They could not see. But now we can see our teacher. That's Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit shows us the beauty of Jesus in our hearts.

I praise the Lord. I've seen the beauty of Jesus so clearly. Every morning I get up and I talk to him. Every single morning before I get out of bed, I'm talking to Jesus. To me, to talk to Jesus is more important than even reading the Bible.

I talk to Jesus. And that's really in the old, for 1500 years, people didn't have a Bible in their hands. How did they grow spiritually? They talked to the Lord, to the Holy Spirit. Sometimes reading the Bible can be a mechanical thing if you don't allow the Holy Spirit to speak to you and show you Jesus.

So it says your eyes will see your teacher. The Bible is meant to show us Jesus. You read in Luke 24 when the disciples, two disciples are walking to Emmaus. It says Jesus took the entire Bible, the law and the prophets, which refers to the entire Old Testament.

And you read there in Luke 24, he showed them how all of them pointed to him, to Jesus. And the Holy Spirit is willing to show us in the entire Bible, Jesus. Not just laws. That's the Old Testament. I mean, if you read the Bible and you see all your rules and say, oh, God has made such a heavy burden.

I can't get angry. I can't murmur. I can't complain. Brother, in that case, you haven't seen Jesus at all. There are many commandments in the Bible that says, don't murmur or complain. Don't lust after women.

Don't ever tell a lie. Don't ever hate anybody. Love your enemies and bless those who curse you. And whenever you do any good, don't let anybody know about it. You'd say, boy, what all difficult commands.

Everybody looks at these as very heavy burdens. They're not. It's like teaching us healthy way of living. You know, like we teach our children, keep your hands clean when you eat your food and flush the toilet when you're finished using it.

Those are not heavy commands. Oh, every time I've got to flush the toilet when I finish using it. Who talks like that? Only dirty people. And when a person says, oh, I can never murmur or complain. Those are people who love dirt.

They're not spiritually minded. But when I see, boy, that's asking me to be like Jesus, who never complains. Never complain. So Isaiah 30, 20 says, your eyes will see your teacher. Have you seen him when you read the scriptures?

He will no longer hide himself like in old covenant times. This is a prophecy. Your eyes. Again, it says your eyes will see your teacher. And not only that, your ears. Now, this is the Holy Spirit speaking in my heart will say to me, this is the way walking it when I'm missing the road and turning to the right or left.

For example, as I walk down life's road and I take a slightly one degree to the left turning from the straight, something doing something slightly wrong in the office or tempted to tell a small lie or do something unrighteous or have a grudge against somebody just a little bit or hate somebody a little bit or just murmur a little bit.

If you're really sensitive to the Holy Spirit, he'll speak to you and say, no, no, no, no, not there. Come back. Turn right. Give up that or turn left. Don't look that side. Don't sign that. That's a false statement.

Thank God for the Holy Spirit. So there, come back to Second Timothy 3, 17. All scripture is inspired by God, breathed by God, profitable for teaching, showing me Jesus for correction, reproof when I go the wrong way and for training me.

Second Timothy 3, 16, for training me in righteousness. See, I don't know righteousness when I'm born into this world. I've got the nature of Adam from the time I'm born. You know, just like we don't know how to keep ourselves clean when we are babies.

Our mothers have got to wipe us and clean us and do everything for us. We don't even know how to eat or drink. Spiritually speaking, that's how we are when we are born again. We don't know, you know, babies will put mud into their mouth and we also put all types of filthy things into our heart.

Spiritual Training and Dependence on the Holy Spirit

You know, when you, if some believers watch pornography, I don't know whether they are believers at all, but it's like babies who put mud into their mouth. And what do you say to a baby who puts into mud into mouth?

I mean, if you find a 20-year-old person putting mud into his mouth, you'd say something wrong with him. And when a person says, I've been a believer for five or 10 years and I'm watching pornography, that's like a 10-year-old boy putting mud into his mouth.

There's something seriously wrong with this guy. That's okay when they're a baby. They should learn to get out of it quickly. That is God's will that we learn to put dirt and all away. We're to be trained in righteousness.

And that's why it's very important to listen to the Holy Spirit in our conscience. You know, the first thing that happened on the day of Pentecost was not that God gave them a Bible. He did not invent printing 300 years before Christ was born so that on the day of Pentecost, everybody would have a Bible.

No, printing was invented in around 1470 AD or something, nearly 1500 years after Christ came. Why didn't God allow printing to be discovered 300 years before Christ so that everybody could have a printed Bible?

How valuable it is to have a printed Bible. I'm so thankful that I have a printed Bible. But I thought, boy, what a blessing it would have been if people had the printed Bible even on the day of Pentecost.

But God in his great wisdom felt that people would become more dependent on a book than the Holy Spirit, like we see today. I see so many born-again Christians who are more dependent on a book than the Holy Spirit.

It's the Holy Spirit who must speak through this book. I remember when I left the Navy 54 years ago, people told me, I must go to a Bible college if I want to serve the Lord. And, you know, when I thought I was young, I was only 26 years old when I quit my job to serve the Lord.

And here were all these people who are much, much older, double my age, telling me I must go to Bible college. And I said, well, let me go to the scriptures. I always went to the scriptures to find the answer.

And what I found was that Jesus never went to a Bible college and he never sent his disciples to a Bible college. And the only one who went to a Bible college was Paul, who was taught the wrong things in his Bible college, became allelic, and his teaching in the Bible college led him to kill the Christians.

And that's why we read in Galatians 1 that Paul had to go to Arabia for three years. Why did Paul had to go to Arabia for three years? Just like the disciples who were with Jesus for three years, Paul had to go to Arabia, to the desert for three years, because the Lord said, you got all this rubbish inside your mouth, inside your head, rather.

You got all this rubbish in your head that you learned in the Bible school for three years. Now I've got to get all that out of your head, and that'll take three years, and I'll teach you the scripture myself through the Holy Spirit.

That's how Paul understood the scripture. He had to get rid of all that trash that he learned in the Bible school. So I saw in scripture that you don't have to go to a Bible school. Jesus never sent any of his disciples to a Bible school.

And the other thing I saw was that 99 .9 of people in a church haven't gone to a Bible school. So if I tell them the only way you can know the Bible is by going to Bible school, I say, what would be the hope for these 99 of people?

I decided then itself, I'll never in my life go to a Bible school. And thank God I didn't, because what happens in all Bible schools is study in the head. And even many believers who don't go to Bible school, many of you also perhaps, don't glory that you don't go to a Bible school.

Don't glory in that. If you read the Bible only in your head, you're just like them. We need the Holy Spirit to speak to us, to train us in righteousness, to correct us and lead us so that the man of God, so that every person, every believer becomes a man of God, a woman of God.

Do you know that God wants you to be known as a man of God, a woman of God? Even if you're a young girl, you've got to become a woman of God, a young man. You must be a man of God. That's supposed to be your goal.

It says that the man of God becomes adequate. Adequate means he's ready to face any situation in the world. Can you say you're ready to face any situation in the world, my brother, sister? God wants to equip you.

He's not condemning you. He's not saying, oh, why aren't you ready to face any situation in the world? He says, come to me. I will equip you to face any situation in the world. You lose your job in those Gulf countries where you work.

You don't get a visa. You can face that situation, whereas other people in the world are crying and weeping and lost faith. You will not. You see, I have a father in heaven who runs my life, and I can never miss his will for my life.

What a wonderful way to live on this earth. And you'll be adequate for every situation. You will not be in panic. Oh, I've got my children to educate. What will happen to them? Dear brother, sister, if you have come to this place of a spirit-filled relationship with Jesus Christ, and you're assured that God is your heavenly father, you become a disciple who wants nothing on earth except doing God's will, I tell you, you'll be adequate to face every circumstance that can ever happen in your life.

See, the Bible is not unrealistic. In the Old Testament, they didn't have any promise that you could handle any situation in life. In fact, in the Old Testament, they didn't even know the scriptures. That's why I had a whole group of people called the scribes who studied the law.

And when you had a problem, you had to go to the scribe. And so what do I do now? What does God say about this situation? I thank God I don't have to go to anybody. The Holy Spirit is there. And I want to say to you, brothers, yes, God gives us older brothers to guide us in complicated situations.

But what if that older brother is not available? See, I grew up without a spiritual father. Many times I wished I had a spiritual father. I wouldn't have made all those mistakes in my younger days. But I had to sort of find my way through a jungle without anybody to lead me or guide me.

You guys are lucky if you have godly elders to guide you. I never had one. I never met one godly elder in my younger days who knew anything about the new covenant or ever preached to me about victory over sin.

For 16 years of my life, I never knew after being born again, after being born again, I never knew what there's such a thing called victory over sin. I would, just like everybody else, mostly in my thoughts, defeated, sometimes angry in my words.

And then I would say, Lord, forgive me. God, forgive me. I knew only about the blood of Jesus cleanses me. And I would keep my conscience clear that way. Because I didn't have a spiritual father to tell me, you don't have to live in falling into the dirt and again cleaning yourself, falling into the dirt and cleaning yourself.

That's a baby life. You know, you give a little baby, a one-year-old child a bath and keep it clean. In one hour, it can be thoroughly dirty. You got to wash them again. That's how it is. They won't wash in the mud and they eat all types of rubbish.

Now, many born-again Christians are like that. They haven't grown up spiritually, but here God wants the man of God to be adequate and not only adequate. It says you're in 2 Timothy 3, 17, equipped for every good work to make you a blessing to every family you meet.

Do you know that's God's will for you? If you walk the way of discipleship and you have faith, here is what God has promised for you. Turn with me to Galatians now. Galatians in chapter 3 and verse 13 and 14.

These are amazing words. We are very thankful for all that Jesus did for us. Turn to Galatians 3, 13. It's the only verse in the Bible which teaches us that Christ not only died for our sins on the cross, more than that, it says here Christ became a curse.

What a terrible thing it is to be cursed by God. Oh, I don't want to be cursed by God. It's a terrible thing. It says Christ became, Galatians 3, 13, a curse. Did you read that? Have you read that ever in your life?

Christ not only died for your sins on the cross, 2 Corinthians 5, 21 says He became sin on the cross. That means our sin. There was no sin in Him. And He became a curse because that's why He had to be crucified on a tree.

Because cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree, it says here. That's why He could not be killed any other way. He had to become a curse. And the Old Testament laws said only someone who's hung on a tree is cursed.

Cursed people are hung on a tree. So He had to be crucified on a cross. That's why He had to die that way. To show the world that He not only took our sins, but He became a curse for us. And you say, why did He die for our sins?

So that I might be cleansed from all my sin. Okay. Why did He become a curse for you and me? What's the answer? That I might go to heaven? No. That's at the end of my life. What about right now? So that, it says here in verse 14, please believe this.

My dear brothers and sisters, I wish you would believe. I wish I could convince all of you who are listening to me about the truth of this verse. These two verses. Christ became a curse for you and me on Calvary's cross.

So that the blessing of Abraham might come upon us. That through our receiving the Holy Spirit by faith. That is how the blessing of Abraham comes. So we need to ask ourselves when the Holy Spirit comes upon me and fills me.

It's because, why do I receive this? Because Christ became a curse for me. My Savior hung there between heaven and earth for me to become a curse. I should have been hanging there, cursed by God and sent to hell.

But instead of me, He hung there and boy, am I grateful to Him for that. Not that I might never see one day in hell. He hung on the cross for me. How can I ever repay Him? With the, the only way is by a lifetime of service and devotion.

I hope you realize this. It's the only way we can repay, not with words or money. Money is rubbish. God's not a beggar. He doesn't want your money. I disagree with all these preachers who tell you that God wants your money.

It's a lie. It's like saying that homeless man, that beggar on the street wants your money. And God wants your money. God's not sitting on the street like all the beggars with a tin can. No, He owns the heaven and the earth.

He says all the silver and the gold in the earth is mine. What does He want? He wants you. He doesn't want your money. He wants you. He wants to remove the curse from your life. Every evidence of the curse in your life.

And He wants to give you the blessing of Abraham. I'll tell you in a moment what the blessing of Abraham is. And that comes through the Holy Spirit. So there we read the purpose of the Holy Spirit filling us.

And Abraham did not speak in tongues. Tongues is an extra gift that God gives to some believers for the purpose. You can't demand it. You read, take your time to read 1 Corinthians chapter 12. And you'll find that very clearly it is a gift given to some.

Just like the gift of healing is given to some. The gift of being an apostle or a prophet is given to some. You can't say, Lord, make me an apostle in exactly the same way. You cannot say to God, give me tongues.

But you can say, Lord, give me the blessing of Abraham. What is that? I'll just show you. It says here, Christ became a curse for us so that the blessing of Abraham might come upon us through the Holy Spirit.

So that's what comes. Turn with me to Genesis and chapter 12. And you'll see what the blessing of Abraham is. I never get tired of saying these things because I see so many believers are not gripped by it.

I'll never forget the story I heard about that great evangelist D .L. Moody, who in the end, great man of God in the end of the 19th century, he was preaching in England somewhere. And some unconverted man came to him at the end of seven days of meeting and said, Mr. Moody, why are you speaking every day on you must be born again?

All seven days. What he said, because you must be born again. That's why. And until you're born again, you must keep on hearing. You must be born again, whether it's seven days or 70 days. Same message.

So I say, why do you keep on speaking about you must be filled with the Holy Spirit? Because you must be filled with the Holy Spirit. That's it. So turn with me to Genesis and chapter 12. Here's the blessing of Abraham.

When God said to Abraham to go forth from his country, here's the blessing. And you can see it in one sentence, verse two, Genesis 12, verse two, I will bless you and you will be a blessing. That's it.

Two statements. I will bless you and you will be a blessing. And he expands on it in verse three to say, you will be a blessing to all the families that you meet on this earth. So, but think of that two sentences in Genesis 12, verse two, I will bless you.

The greatest blessing God can give me is to make me like Jesus Christ in my character, in my heart, in my attitudes, in my motives, in my speech, in my thoughts, and all my inner being that there's no greater blessing.

Dear brothers and sisters, don't think money is a blessing. Money is usually a curse. Yeah. I've seen people who come to listen to me. I'm telling you from 45 years of being an elder in CFC churches, I'll tell you some very sad things that I've seen.

I've seen poor people coming to our church. I'm talking about in the cities of Bangalore and other places. I myself have gone and brought people to the church who lived in one room houses. Poor people, invited them to come to the church.

And we've helped them financially and help their children to get educated and all that. And they become well off. And when they become well off, what happens? They become proud. They go away from the Lord and they leave the church with total ingratitude, not at all grateful for all that the Lord did for them or the church did for them.

And they lose their salvation just because they got a lot of money and a good, got a good job somewhere abroad or something like that. I've seen it happen again and again. Or they become proud because they are so blessed.

Or I've seen people who became proud because they became elders in a church. They would have been saved if they had not been elders. But they became elders and they lost their salvation. They left the church.

You see, it's so easy. Don't think that these earthly blessings, honor and position in the church or money is the mark of God's blessing. Most cases, it has led them astray. And if you're earning a lot more money than you need, I'll tell you, you're in tremendous danger.

You're not blessed. No, you're in danger. Be careful. I'm not saying you should not earn that. But I say you need to be more careful. That's all I say. You see, if a man's traveling from Bangalore to Delhi in a train with 10 rupees in his pocket, he can sleep peacefully.

But if a man's traveling from Bangalore to Delhi with 1 million rupees in his pocket, he's not able to sleep at night. He has to stay awake all night. Because he's afraid he'll lose that money. Somebody could steal it from him.

So the more you have, you're in greater danger. Who is in greater danger traveling in a train from Bombay to Delhi? The one with 10 rupees in his pocket or the one with 1 million? Now, 1 million rupees can help you in so many ways.

But you've got to be very careful that it doesn't destroy you. And that's what happens. So the blessing is not money. The blessing is not fame in the world, not even fame in the Christian world. Becoming an elder in a church, that's not a blessing.

That's a tremendous responsibility. The blessing is that he makes you like Jesus Christ. So the blessing of Abraham is number one, I will bless you. I will make you like Jesus in your heart. Your thoughts will be like the thoughts of Jesus.

Your speech will be the way Jesus spoke. When you preach, it will be like Jesus preaching. Your inner attitudes to people will be like the attitude of Jesus. And your attitude to sinners and your attitude to believers will be like the attitude of Jesus.

And your motives with which you're serving God will also be like the motives of Jesus. That is the only blessing I'm looking for. I say, Lord, I'm willing to live in a poor hut all my life. That's not important for me.

Whether you give me a hut or a palace is exactly the same for me. Whether it's a one-bedroom house or a three-bedroom house is the same for me. I want to be like Jesus. Will you make that the passion of your life?

And leave it to God to decide all the other things, what type of car you're going to have and what type of house you're going to live in. I left it to God. If God allowed me to ride a scooter in Bangalore for 42 years, then that's all I could afford.

And I'm perfectly happy. To me, it was just like having a Cadillac car. It made no difference in my life. Whether it was a Cadillac car or a scooter, it took me from one place to another. I'm not saying you shouldn't have a car.

But what I mean is God decides for each of us what we should have. And to me, that is secondary. It's as whether I had a scooter or a Cadillac car was as unimportant to me as whether I wear a striped shirt like this or a blue shirt or any other color shirt.

Those things are not important. The important thing is that inside that, I become like Jesus in my attitude to God and towards people. Make that your goal. Say, Lord, I don't want these external things to be in my mind the sign of your blessing.

There's only one mark of your blessing that every day, day by day, year by year, you're making me more Christ-like, more pure in my thoughts and more controlled in my speech, helping me to overcome anger, murmuring, complaining, bitterness.

And all these things helping me always every day of the year to speak graciously to my wife, to bring up my children in godly ways. Lord, this is the blessing I'm seeking. All the other things are secondary.

What my bank account is, is up to you. I mean, I need money to live and take care of my family, to prepare my children for living in the world, to lay up something for them, for their life. That's all I need it for.

But the main thing is, I want to be like you. I want my children to be like you, Lord. And they grow up. I'm not particularly concerned what job they have. If they can earn their living, that's enough.

I want them to be like you. Is that the passion of your life? Then I can say you're blessed by God. That is the blessing. That's why Jesus became a curse, not to take us to heaven. I'll tell you honestly, I have no interest in going to heaven.

I'm not saying that in a loose way. I mean it with all my heart. I told the Lord that directly. I said, Lord, I have no interest in going to heaven. I want to be with you, Lord Jesus. To me, heaven is to being with you.