Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland, & Accusations

Apologia Studios

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

Non rockabotas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it

00:07

Are you gonna bark all day Or are you gonna bite? Delusional is okay in your worldview.

00:16

I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay.

00:23

It doesn't really hurt What Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men

00:36

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage

00:44

Go into all the world and make disciples not going to the world make buddies not to make brosives, right?

00:50

Don't go in the world make homies Disciples, I got a bit of a jiggle Nick That's a joke master

01:00

The real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not Behold my servant whom

01:23

I uphold my chosen in whom my soul delights. I have put my spirit upon him He will bring forth justice to the nations

01:32

He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice or make it heard in the street a bruised reed He will not break in a faintly burning wick.

01:38

He will not quench. He will faithfully bring forth Here it is justice

01:44

He will not grow faint or be discouraged till he has established justice in the earth and the coastlands.

01:50

Here it is. There's more Wait for his law and the coastlands wait for his law. Hey, what's up guys?

01:56

Welcome back to the gospel heard around the world This is apology a radio coming at you guys from our underground bunker in Phoenix, Arizona Apology of studios right here apology a radio.

02:06

I'm Jeff the Coleman a ninja. That's joy the girl over there Hi, hey That's a catac director director of communications for end abortion.

02:14

Now. What's up? Everybody? Hey guys, welcome to a very important broadcast of apology

02:19

A radio we were talking a bunch this week Joy was really I've noticed you're very passionate about this and important stuff we were talking about the controversial recent documentary

02:35

Neeping Never Leaving Neverland. It's actually two parts.

02:40

It is four Hours long four hours long.

02:45

So it is a long one. You can get it on Amazon Prime At least that's where I watched it. You do have to get that At least seven at least seven day trial of the

02:54

HBO thingy So if you have it Amazon Prime, you can get access to the four -hour documentary

03:00

Very very very controversial right now. Everybody's talking about this documentary It is about Michael Jackson's accusers to accusers specifically there are more than two but two accusers specifically

03:14

Wade Robson and Jimmy Safechuck Wade Robson Jimmy Safechuck Also, it includes people like Joy Robson Wade's mother.

03:22

The families are all involved I would say it would be worth your time to sit through this documentary

03:29

My wife and I sat through it this past week. My daughter watched the documentary Herself I think you saw

03:36

Some of it. I haven't I haven't watched it. Okay. I'm not um, no problem. I just have heard that it's

03:43

Yeah, I'm not like I'm not a weak I'm very much into true crime and all this stuff, but when it came to this

03:51

I just thought maybe that would be well a little bit much. Yeah, it's Just go into it.

03:57

Basically. I'm not saying don't watch it And I'm just not saying you have to watch it right just be know what you're getting yourself into You're it's not gonna be like a fun family picnic.

04:08

No Explicit content. Yeah, I know I need to I need to tell you that that's

04:13

I'm glad you guys are bringing that up For those of you guys that are watching right now, please join with us. We're gonna try to be witnesses for God God's law true justice in the world where there is so much perversion of justice

04:25

We want to address a cultural issue that I am I am confident not many Christian ministries are gonna address this this subject

04:32

From the perspective that we are in terms of how do you analyze this from the position of God's law as the standard of justice?

04:40

Criminal proceedings those sorts of things. So that's what you're gonna get right here But I do want to warn you ahead of time this episode.

04:46

We are gonna play things from the documentary itself We're gonna play some clips here that I just want to give you a fair warning

04:53

You probably do not want children in the room. No, not probably you do not want children in the room listening to this episode

05:00

So if you're listening to this via podcast in your car on a road trip with the family No, don't do that because we're gonna be playing things in this episode that are very very explicit and they come from the testimonies of those making the allegations including

05:18

Michael Jackson's made and you're gonna hear some details there that are very very graphic So as we give you fair warning right now, don't say that I didn't warn you

05:26

I know we're a Christian show, but we need to actually as Christians address these issues and not stay in the background silence

05:32

These are dealing with issues of justice Criminal justice the innocence the guilty accusations witnesses.

05:39

How does God tell us to handle these things? How do we manage these things? You might be surprised to know in today's evangelical culture that God has

05:48

Explicitly answered these things He's given detailed explanations as to what true justice looks like and I want to say even further and I know exactly it looks like You're itching to say something.

05:56

I want to say further Isaiah 42. I quoted because we believe that that's a current thing

06:02

It's happening right now. Jesus is that servant of the Lord? He's the one that was promised to bring justice to the earth

06:08

And did you notice when I read it? It said he will not grow faint or weary until he has done So so he's gonna bring forth justice and the coastlands are waiting for his law

06:17

We believe that Christ is King over his kingdom now and that kingdom is a present reality over heaven and earth

06:23

So it is a present reality here and Jesus is winning the nations and as he wins the nations He actually brings them to life.

06:31

He fills them with his spirit and a love for his law a love for justice I would say today in the

06:36

New Covenant. God is just as concerned with justice today as he was in the Old Covenant We lose that a lot in today's evangelical culture.

06:44

We act like God's just concerned with taking the people to heaven one day Which is not the gospel of the kingdom

06:49

It had was had very much to do with this world this life as well And so we want to be lights for the good news of the kingdom for the justice of God And the law of God in today's culture.

07:02

So if you would join with us share this Share this content, but just know this you probably should share it with just a quick explanation on it it's very explicit content here because we are

07:14

I don't want someone to accidentally come across this this this show or this podcast and Just have it playing while they're baking cookies in the kitchen with their daughter or something

07:22

And to hear the sorts of things that we're gonna be playing here So I just want you to know that that there's very explicit content here

07:28

Zach. I think you said it pastor in terms of There are certain realms of the

07:35

Christian Church today that wouldn't even attempt to address a subject like this and I think In large part that might have to do with their theological perspective on the law of God, right?

07:44

They're not even looking to make application because if in your understanding of Scripture, this is something that is irrelevant or has passed away even

07:55

You're not even looking to make application. That's right. If you look at the history of our nation we come from a long lineage of Christians who established our system of justice

08:05

Obviously, I'm talking more about the Puritan system which gave us our foundation of justice and the application of God's law and society

08:12

That's right. They to the best of their ability. Of course, they weren't perfect They made an effort to establish

08:19

God's justice in the earth because that's what human beings were supposed to do Even though we fail and fall short at that They believe that it was their responsibility to bring

08:27

God's Word to bear on this issue and issues like these and in our culture It's amazing.

08:32

You see you remember a couple months ago. We had the situation with Brett Kavanaugh, right? You had the same type of you know situation allegations being made sexual assault all this kind of stuff going on and the church by and Large, what can they possibly have to say to that if they're not standing on Scripture?

08:48

and so we have a situation now where it moves out of the realm of The civil sphere and in government and now it's pop culture but it's the same standard in the same law that God has given that applies to both realms and it's up to us to be responsible in trying to Make application in this area.

09:08

Yeah, joy. Why why why would we do something like this? So, what did you want to say about this? well, I was just gonna say I'm used

09:13

I'm glad that you use the word application because that is I I Guess I want to explain to people very quickly that we are using this case that is

09:24

I mean, it's important It's timely a lot of people are talking about it But this is an example that we are using to show the application the proper application of God's law

09:36

So what we're not saying what we're not saying here. This is not a court of law, right?

09:42

We are not indicting or Saying Michael Jackson is guilty or innocent here.

09:47

That is not what we're doing I already noticed a lot of people in the YouTube comments are already arguing over whether or not he did it

09:54

That's not actually why we're here. We're here to look at We're here to look at the accusation made against him.

10:00

We're here to look at how you are supposed to take an accusation We're looking at justice. What does that mean?

10:06

Obviously justice is very different for the world than it is If you use the

10:12

Bible to apply God's law because I Mean I get and I don't really know exactly what order we want to take all this in but I would say

10:22

The number one problem we have here is that the world's version of justice involves some sort of like societal doxing

10:28

Nowadays and you see a lot of it just in regards to the me too movement you know in the past few years any instance of or any allegation of Sexual assault or abuse is followed by This large -scale doxing of people which means we take their movies down.

10:48

We take their shows down We stop playing their music and we pretend like they didn't exist and that is our societal punishment for them

10:57

And it's because our our justice system really especially especially in regards to sexual assault

11:05

Our Legal system has degraded in the way that it deals with that crime and so the world

11:16

The world rightfully sees that it's not working. We're not victims are not getting justice in this area

11:22

So we have added this extra layer of like social conventional justice

11:27

But that's not actually that's actually from the world That's not from God, yeah,

11:34

I mean he you know, this comes out and I think it's it's worth mentioning that you know, he he was already tried for certain things and Whether whatever you think of that trial it is interesting that he was tried and it's interesting that This documentary came out after he passed away when he can no longer defend himself and and you know

12:00

So it may seem like oh, well, you know, he died like what's the big deal? First of all, we know that he's either

12:07

Eternally separated or right eternally before the father. So it is a big deal

12:13

And second of all, his family is still alive so it's not just like there's there's a bigger impact than just Like oh, it's not a big deal because he's dead.

12:25

And so now we can talk about him. That's just that's not how That's not how you're supposed to You're not you're not supposed to legally

12:36

Decide whether someone's innocent or guilty societally, right and you're you're not supposed obviously there are certain circumstances where the perpetrator of a crime has passed away but Yeah, you generally aren't gonna be doing it after they yeah are dead and that right

12:55

There is kind of a delineation between the world's justice and God's justices I mean what we're talking about here is essentially

13:02

We want to make try to make meaningful application based on the principles of God's law because we want to demonstrate the superiority

13:08

Yes of God's justice over against the world's justice. Yes a society were to function in this way

13:14

There would be peace. There would be harmony There would be human flourishing as opposed to the way that the world does it and that's a key thing here, too

13:20

As you guys are maybe just just joining us right now again share the episode make sure you let people know There's explicit content in this episode where we've been playing through a lot of things

13:27

I see the conversations taking place right now live as we're talking through this people are already Going at it with each other in terms of he's innocent.

13:35

No, he's not and he's a sexual predator and you don't know that We should listen to this episode. You really will tell you what what counts as proof what counts as yes an accusation all that stuff

13:46

Yeah, our our point here is not to try Michael Jackson But to talk about what are

13:52

God's standards when you are actually bringing an accusation or receiving an accusation against any person for anything and we want to say right here and now this we uphold the superiority of God's standards of justice and criminal proceedings over against the arbitrary and Dysfunctional standards that we often have today in our criminal justice system

14:14

Here's the key God's law was concerned with preserving the innocent, right?

14:21

the preservation of the innocent Now give me I may say that very clearly it was concerned

14:26

Of course with justice being brought to the perpetrator But God's criminal proceedings in terms of how do you receive an accusation and how do you work through these things?

14:36

Was focused in upon protecting the innocent from false charges. That's a big deal

14:41

Now listen, the world doesn't like that the world just wants to say we just need to punish We need to make sure there's justice.

14:47

We have to punish punish punish punish punish make sure this Especially with this any form of sexual assault any form of sexual assault and and here's the thing the world

14:56

Of course would be obsessed about just punish just punish Hashtag me too and you hear people and even in the me too movement saying it doesn't make a difference if there's evidence

15:07

It doesn't matter if there were witnesses to it If if somebody says there was a molestation or sexual assault then that means you believe them me too

15:16

Hashtag why because the world doesn't have a view that is true about what's gonna take place

15:23

With the cosmic justice where nothing is getting neglected They don't have a worldview perspective that says hey

15:31

You got to make sure you protect the innocent from being falsely accused and then someone says but what if we what if the evildoers?

15:37

Actually somehow get away and the Christian goes Nobody gets away. Yeah, there is no getting away

15:44

Do you get that now what I mean by that is this if you're in if you're in Christ now He didn't get away with it.

15:50

Yeah, Michael Jackson didn't get away from any of his sin not you you either are you?

15:56

You either have atonement made for you That's right, or you don't so one way or the other and it's not just it's not just pedophilia

16:04

That would send Michael Jackson to hell. That's right. So it's important to keep all this All right, this is amazing guys listen

16:11

I want to encourage you as brothers and sisters in Christ if you're a believer in the comments right now You have to slow your roll

16:18

Listen to the actual watch this episode will truly help you in terms of the accusations that you're already making now

16:25

Demonstrate that you don't hold to God's principles of justice and accusations and that's not to say these sound like these sound like pedo

16:32

Sympathizers this sounds pro -jackson really do you know what I believe right now about Michael Jackson and the leaving

16:39

Neverland's these two do know What I believe about the situation you you think that there's

16:44

Pro -jackson happening right now. No, here's what we're saying. This is pro God's law pro

16:50

God standards of justice That's what we're saying. And this is a prime example right now that there are believers right here in the comments already slinging accusations before you have

17:02

Witnesses evidence and proof you've already now based upon Suspicions started to make accusations and I want to say to you and I mean this with as much love and grace

17:11

It's in me as a believer in Jesus Christ with as meek and mild of Jesus. I can get out of me shame on you

17:16

Shame on you for representing the king of the universe Who believes that justice matters and you're out here slinging accusations before you have any evidence or proof and guess what?

17:28

That's part of the reason we're doing this podcast today. What a great very Self -refutation is a very very good reason and so if that cut you just now then please give me the grace of hanging on So that we can take us through the law of God in terms of how do you handle these things?

17:44

How do you manage these things my point a minute ago was that nobody's getting away. There's cosmic justice

17:49

Here's the thing if you're in Christ by the grace of God through the gift of faith. It's all to God's glory

17:56

He's done all this work That means that God's justice that you deserve and I deserve

18:02

Seriously deserve I deserve to go to hell for my sins in my life I deserve to die all of that justice due to me and you and these guys right here was actually given to Jesus It wasn't ignored.

18:16

It wasn't neglected. It was actually penalized in Jesus so watch in our case.

18:22

No one's getting off scot -free No one is neglected the justice due to you was fully absorbed in Jesus Christ He took it all so watch that that justice.

18:32

Do you? gone only because Not a neglectful God But a

18:37

God who actually is just right and the justifier are the one who has faith in Jesus But in terms of those who are not in Christ who will face the judgment seat of God one day that cosmic justice will actually be

18:52

Exacted on that day and they will suffer the consequences of eternal separation from God Because that justice will not be neglected

19:00

So the point is is that unbelievers today have a hard time with a system of justice

19:06

Earthly justice because they so want to make sure that justice is upheld that they're even willing to allow

19:13

Probably maybe possibly innocent people to go away So just to make sure that there is justice for victims

19:20

God's law is the just system but God's law has a eye on the preservation of the innocent to make sure that they aren't condemned and I'll talk about that for a second in terms of the the defiling of the land we had that conversation earlier in terms of Justice the land the innocent that I think that's a really important element and then guys hang on because we're gonna start playing clips from leaving

19:43

Netherlands and Neverland and Some other clips of Accusers and those sorts of things.

19:50

Well, I think it starts with right where you landed Which is that God is the just just and the justifier of the wind of his faith in Jesus So in Christ is the punishment for our guilt, right?

20:02

So Christ is the perfect victim. He's the only innocent man to ever live and he made no bones about just going straight to his death and being that innocent victim that was put to death so that the justice of God Would fall on him rather than fall on us who have faith in him, right?

20:20

so that's that's gospel 101, but in terms of if you look at Scripture the law of God makes such a

20:29

Protection for the innocent that God sees the shedding of innocent blood as so severe that it actually brings

20:37

Long -term ramifications on the nation that does it and that's not we're not just talking about abortion Okay, I know we talked about that all the time like abortion is an issue of national sin

20:46

If you shed the blood of the innocent it defiles the land it pollutes the land That's the testimony of Scripture Old and New Testament But as you see that principle laid down in the

20:55

Old Testament with the nation of Israel, you know They're shedding innocent blood shedding innocent blood.

21:00

And then when you get to the New Testament what happens the only innocent blood that ever walked the face of the earth comes on the scene and what

21:08

Scripture says about Jesus is that In Galatians chapter 3 it says that Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming the curse

21:17

Right for it is written curse. It is everyone who is hung on a tree. That's a quotation from Deuteronomy Yeah, right

21:23

So Christ the only innocent one became the sin seed curse of the land

21:29

That defiled the land of that first century and then he was raised from the dead He was seated and what happened to that first century generation

21:37

God punished them He judged them in such a way as to answer for the shedding of the ultimate sacrifice

21:45

The the true shedding of innocent blood. Yeah, right and that's the same thing that I mean, we're looking at our nation

21:52

What we've done with you know, our unborn children Obviously the point is God will answer the shedding of innocent blood and that's a principle

21:58

We see in the Old Testament and the New Testament Jesus obviously being the prime example of the only innocent one and God will answer it.

22:07

Mm -hmm So so that's powerful stuff present or cosmically present or cosmically that's that's amazing

22:13

So I want to say to everybody listening to us right now How grateful we are for all of you guys who are staying with us and staying in the middle of this conversation with us

22:21

I want to tell you a bit of our purpose here Our purpose here again is to not have a court proceeding and begin indictments but our purpose here is to actually wade through the current circumstances and as people talk about Michael Jackson and the allegations of molestation and all the rest is we want to say how should we as Christians be filtering through this and asking questions when

22:44

People are making accusations. It's very very important because what we want to make sure happens is that those who are truly guilty

22:51

Actually receive justice from our civil magistrates that God has ordained Romans 13 but we also want to make sure that innocent people are not falsely accused and Charged with crimes because let's all grant it happens.

23:04

It happens yeah, and you know, you have examples of people today women who have made allegations against men in terms of Sexual allegations against them that they come out later and say no.

23:16

I made it up. I wasn't telling the truth We have experience with that personally even with someone that we know that that sort of thing happened

23:22

And the person came out later like no, I made the whole thing up So false allegations happen But we also want to make sure that if people are truly victims that there is justice and we have to ask the question from a

23:32

Christian perspective How do you get to that justice how do you get to what does God say is the appropriate way of moving through people's allegations

23:41

I'll give you an example in in the Old and New Testament The standard of two to three witnesses is upheld in both

23:49

Testaments So I don't care what your theology is in terms of eschatology or whether you're a theonomist or New Covenant theology

23:57

It doesn't matter all of this works for all of us Okay, all the New Testaments you have the two and three witnesses rule of God Upheld and the

24:06

Apostle Paul says to Timothy He says to not receive an accusation against an elder unless it's on the basis of two to three witnesses

24:14

Now what does that mean is you take that the general equity of that and you would say you need two to three independent lines of witness and evidence

24:22

For an accusation to stick right? So for example today we have the benefit and the blessing of screenshots text messages audio recording devices video recording devices

24:35

Now you can actually have a video recorder happening and now you've have 1 million witnesses.

24:41

Do you see the point? Yeah, so we have the benefit now It's almost like the the victory of what

24:46

God is doing in the world is making it easier to apply God's standards of justice Yes, we would just do it.

24:53

Yes, and it's like a blessing And in some cases today we actually have the benefit of DNA evidence that counts as an independent line or witness itself you have all kinds of Ways today that you can get to the two or three independent lines now

25:09

Why two or three witnesses why according to God's law because you need to have two to three independent witnesses

25:14

People who are not colluding together on a story because that can also happen

25:19

But you need two to three independent witnesses when an allegation is made Now this is really important in particular for the

25:26

Michael Jackson discussion Yeah Is this is vital is that even though in the documentary you have two people with their own?

25:34

stories of molestation You can't really count those as two witnesses actually

25:40

Because on biblical standards the one person say Wade has to make the accusation

25:46

Well, the other guy wasn't actually there when when his allegations are taking place of that incident, right?

25:52

So it actually doesn't follow that this meets the biblical standard in the documentary of two to three witnesses

25:58

Technically just because those two witnesses though they have their own stories of molestation

26:03

They don't have like yeah, Wade was with me on September 10th when this thing took place. He saw it

26:09

He didn't see it now that watch this for those you guys that are listening Please listen with grace and patience because I want you to understand something

26:15

I think that there is definitely something to the allegations, but we have to say however

26:21

Can we make an accusation and can we bring charges against somebody and how do we do that?

26:26

We have to connect these things. You can't just say hey, there's a documentary with two guys that are saying that they were molested

26:33

Okay, well that doesn't necessarily Necessarily it could mean something But it doesn't necessarily mean the accusation should stick and charges are brought

26:40

Because those two guys have different stories and they're separated from one another they don't count as two witnesses to the same event

26:46

Do you get the point when a charge is being made according to God's law? You've got to have two to three witnesses about that charge right that the person is bringing and so that's very very important Um, and so when we talk about this situation with Michael Jackson I'll just go on record here and I will say that I have a personal belief

27:07

That the witnesses in leaving Neverland are telling the truth That's my personal belief, right?

27:15

But watch this I can't make accusations and bring charges against a person unless it's corroborated

27:23

Right based upon these other things so I can have a suspicion but we can't operate based on suspicion in terms of bringing accusations

27:29

That's what's very very important here So follow with us now because we're gonna start moving through some of these things to say well, how do we do this?

27:36

Biblically biblically because God's law lays down how you're supposed to wade through these sorts of things and we're gonna do that Actually as we start working through here

27:44

We're gonna talk about rape in God's law. We're gonna talk about how God tells people to actually receive those accusations of rape

27:50

We're gonna talk about how God actually preserves the dignity of the woman Yes, and in God's system of justice, the woman has no shame.

27:58

No shame. No shame God tells her from on high that she is the victim and she needs to come out immediately

28:05

And tell everybody because she's the victim and she's upheld And that's just a very critical aspect of God's law, but I'll just play this clip here

28:13

This is from Here I'll do this one first this is from leaving

28:20

Neverland part one again, it's for our documentary I want to warn you now. I know

28:26

I've said it several times friends I need to warn you what you're about to hear is extremely graphic So just be ready for it.

28:33

If you have children that are walking in the room right now, you've got to turn this down You don't want little children hearing this so I've given you fair warning right now, please please listen

28:42

I'm not exaggerating this what you're about to hear is very very graphic. So please be aware of that He and Wade would avoid me

28:51

I could tell that we're avoiding me, you know, it's a big place It's 2 ,700 acres and they take off for the day and I'd spend all day looking for them.

29:00

That was his mom That's the mom Couldn't find them So I spent a lot of time alone there playing with the chimps.

29:09

We became good friends We were back and forth throughout the trip between Neverland and the hideout in Westwood but you know my mother being in a different room and Michael and I sleeping in his bed the sexual contact

29:30

Continued every night we were together. I Guess it sort of became a routine masturbating the oral sex both sides and and Touching and the fondling and the gyrating and the kissing

29:49

Me bending over with the masturbation and the tongue and all that and then one of the kind of newer things that started to happen

29:58

Was he started to show me? some pornography Pretty graphic Heterosexual porn

30:10

You know oral sex full penetration anal stuff

30:16

It seemed like he like Told you I told you But if we're gonna if we're gonna be, you know be faithful Christians and witnesses for God's truth in this world

30:27

We do have to be willing to actually engage with these things in the cultural conversation This is happening on a large scale right now, and we need a

30:33

Christian response to this How do we engage with this and that's yeah I think the the proper thing like you said at the beginning is starting to ask the questions that will determine

30:44

Who's at fault can it be corroborated what from that Testimony of that man who was there or what evidence is there to?

30:54

Corroborate that testimony. Yeah that that actually took place. How do we get to the bottom of that? Now I want to say this very very important thing here

31:01

This is I think key right now in the times that we live in today. There are a lot of different therapies

31:10

That happen today on a large scale in the hospital system medical system We have today when I was a chaplain for four years at a at a hospital full -time

31:19

Every month they had one day dedicated to a very special seminar you could be a part of that was literally from like 8 in the morning until like maybe 5 or 6 o 'clock at night and You you could voluntarily participate in this seminar thing where they basically try to help people

31:33

Who were addicts who were using drugs and alcohol to try to cope with pain that from their past or something like that That you could take this seminar and what the seminar ended up doing and I saw it every day

31:43

I'm sorry every month for four years every month for four years I had been counseling with people for a long period of time and when they would go into this seminar

31:51

They would always come back with some sort of sexual trauma or some memory that they all of a sudden had that they had never ever had before and they never

32:00

They'd never remember this thing and all of a sudden they went to this thing and now they had a memory of a sexual trauma And so I want you to know that this is really critical today because this happens a lot and it's been debunked many many times

32:11

Over I'm not saying that every case is the same. I'm saying that this this particular trauma Finding a trauma and repressed memory sort of thing is is is a very important thing to analyze

32:23

I think it's important to recognize that with these different therapies we have today there are times where people will go into a therapy session and they will come out with a sexual trauma and It's interesting because as you as you learn about these sexual traumas that they never remembered before never had before You'll learn oftentimes that people have a very fuzzy memory of it

32:42

Not a lot of details just sort of images and their images that many people would argue are implanted through the therapy process

32:49

Yes, it's possible to actually earn a sexual trauma memory in some of these seminars and sorts of things

32:57

I'm not saying that's true of every case brothers and sisters I'm saying that of course there are times where there's trauma that's so bad

33:02

We try to forget but there are there are times where it is possible and you just need to research this yourselves for people to actually get a trauma experience through these

33:13

Therapy sessions and different tactics and strategies that the therapists have been trained in To actually guide people through a process of ultimately getting a trauma

33:21

And so we just have to be cautious about that. So here's what's interesting in Wade that was

33:26

Wade there in Wade's Testimony there know this he didn't have a single

33:34

Incident he didn't have a single incident. He says that it happened all the time every day

33:40

He was with Michael Jackson he said that whenever they were together this happened and he would have different details of different events that happen and That's his that's his explanation.

33:49

Now if you watch the leaving Neverland, I'm never gonna get that right today If you watch leaving Neverland, you'll see that Wade actually wasn't and it's like just every once in a while.

33:58

He'd see Michael Jackson. He like Lived with Michael Jackson slept with Michael Jackson family stayed with Michael Jackson Here is

34:06

Michael Jackson special video of Michael Jackson sending a home video to Wade on his birthday

34:12

Here is Michael Jackson doing that. Hello, Wade Congratulations a little one today is your birthday.

34:19

I don't celebrate birthdays, of course But I thought I would take this moment to say congratulations On the day that you were born

34:26

And in my opinion you should spend this day with your mother and your father who conceived you And you should be giving them the presents

34:35

And being thankful that they brought you into the world and the future is yours and you can do whatever you want

34:41

So congratulations. I Love you. Goodbye And I don't know if it's time to go there yet I know we were chatting earlier about the role of parents and protecting their children in this regard

34:54

Because if something like this is true, yeah, and this is actually happened You shouldn't be celebrating with your parents and thanking them for the job that they did in allowing this to happen

35:06

Mm -hmm. It's something to where this scripture says we need to abstain from the appearance of all evil

35:11

Mm -hmm. Well, and we do know Michael Jackson himself admitted to Boys sleeping in his bed with him

35:18

Yeah, now he claimed that that was a totally innocent act and there was nothing more loving than sharing your bed with someone

35:26

But that's not true and especially in the case of there's video

35:32

Documentation of a boy sitting right next to Michael Jackson saying that he didn't want to sleep in Michael Jackson's bed and Michael Jackson was basically very persistent now as a parent you don't have to take someone before a court of law to make a decision about whether or not your child spent spends time with them and Certainly not if they sleep in the same bed with them.

35:57

So I don't know What happened? I'm assuming that There it does appear

36:05

And you know, this happens frequently especially with people that are predatory towards children

36:11

There is a grooming process That not only especially with kids not only applies to the kid but to the family as well

36:20

And like I said, that's not enough evidence to take him and Say that he's he's guilty, but you are allowed to make a personal

36:33

Decision and especially as a parent you are absolutely allowed to say No, my child is not sleeping in the same bed.

36:40

We know that that was happening. Yeah, right and that's completely inappropriate Yeah. Yeah. Can we just announce that right now in terms of how

36:46

I feel about that negligent abdication? Yes. That's what that is Excuse what's we just want to look at the parent in the eye and say what's wrong with you?

36:53

What are you thinking? Why would you let your little boy sleep in a bed with a with an older man behind closed doors in the dark?

37:00

for weeks on end Who allows them who allows their child to sleep in bed?

37:06

With a grown man and also what grown man desires for a child to sleep in their bed with them, right?

37:13

Some some some, you know, I mean my own kids, of course, you know, that's your family. Gotcha But like, you know, why are you asking for other little boys?

37:22

And why is it little boys? Yeah, you know Why is it all a lot of little boys that you want in bed with you?

37:27

And but this gets to a point we have to say, okay. I'm suspicious because you

37:34

Like well your suspicions as a parent every single one of those parents could have made it So there were no true or false allegations, right?

37:41

They could have said, um, no, you're not spending the night in his bed You're not spending the night there ever, right?

37:48

And then there would be no true or false allegations, right? like and it's just if you watch if you do watch the documentary this would it's interesting is that one thing that's confirmed with the parents and the families is that Michael would take the boys and disappear across Neverland with them for hours on ends and and be behind closed doors

38:08

And he actually put up special things in the hallway where if somebody was walking in the hallway bells would go off Yes He had a closet inside of a closet where and and the kids can all testify to being in there and they said well

38:20

That's where some of the molestation took place but we got to ask the question beyond suspicion beyond you and what are you thinking and Parents need a big slap on the hand and say what were you thinking?

38:31

We have to say is there corroborative evidence? independent Secondary witness because what you cannot do no matter how tempting it may be.

38:41

This is so critical According to God's law. You are not allowed to receive an accusation on the basis of one

38:48

Witness that means one line of evidence. There is no other evidence whatsoever. No secondary evidence towards it

38:53

It's just one person making a claim. It doesn't matter how convincing it is. You are not to receive that accusation

38:59

There's needs to be two to three independent lines of witness and evidence Now each case you've got to look at and say

39:04

I'll listen to you I'll like even as a pastor I'll have people sit in front of me all the time and they'll they'll say something happened to them and I have to as a

39:11

Pastor reserve judgment until it can be demonstrated by two to three other witnesses or at the lines of evidence

39:18

Before I can start saying this is true. Let's build the at the accusation here is an example of Secondary witness that I think we do need to listen to and this is

39:31

Michael Jackson's made and I want to warn you Once again, I know new people are joining this right now as we're doing this

39:38

I want to warn you once again, what you're about to hear is explicit. It is hard to listen to This is the testimony of Michael Jackson's made who was with him for a number of years and she did testify

39:51

In a court of law over some of these issues But again, I want to warn you what you're gonna hear right now is not typical for a

39:57

Christian show But we have to engage this as Christians to get God's law and his standards into this cultural conversation

40:04

What was the first thing for you what made you first suspect

40:11

That Michael Jackson had an unhealthy interest in children. I Noticed that there were a lot of little boys.

40:18

That's all that would hang around there You wouldn't see like little girls and I knew the little boys were there

40:27

When they would arrive they would put their clothes in the suitcase in a suitcase in his room.

40:32

I started Realizing thinking wondering When he was taking baths with him, they were sleeping in his bed, but there's sleeping and there's sleeping

40:43

Yeah You're talking about The worst kind of sleeping with children Yes, I know the truth.

40:51

I was there and When I would go in the next day there were little boys underwears either on the floor

40:59

With Michaels or they were in the jacuzzi So you were suspicious as soon as you saw that?

41:05

Yeah, I got suspicious And then I would find underwears also in his bed.

41:12

I did find underwears that were mince briefs in the walk -in closet and they were

41:23

Right and I don't like to say this they were like crunchy hard with yellow stains all over them

41:29

I didn't know who they belonged to Because the little boys started wearing Michaels briefs

41:37

And they would leave their underwears inside his drawer Okay, so there is an example of Secondary witness and that is not all of her testimony.

41:48

There is confirmation for one of the one of the men that's in a documentary You have to forgive me for not remember the names here.

41:56

I think it was Jimmy safe Chuck I believe so forgive me if I'm wrong It's other waiter Jimmy. I think it was

42:01

Jimmy that there is confirmation from the maid that she saw Michael Jackson Naked with him in the shower.

42:09

Mm -hmm. Okay, so there is secondary confirmation and witness to some of their testimonies

42:15

Which is very very important because from a Christian perspective Let me just read it to you Okay In terms of what we're trying to do here

42:21

Matthew 18 is an example of Jesus upholding the two or three witnesses Rule in God's law his system of justice where he says you go to them first privately if they won't listen you take two or more with you and So that's by the mouth of two or three witnesses.

42:34

Every fact may be confirmed. Can I just say that? Yeah, that's standard Deuteronomy 19 15 is where that comes from a single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime

42:44

Only on the evidence of two or three witnesses shall a charge be established. Yeah. Yep. There you go So it says Deuteronomy 19 a single witness shall not rise up against a man on account on account of an iniquity or any sin

42:54

So as Christians according to God's judicial standards, you cannot accept no matter how convincing one person's testimony of something without secondary and and third lines of evidence and witness now there's ways to do that and this is do you take the general equity of that in terms of Are there two or three lines of witness and testimony?

43:15

Take take for example a rape victim a woman who's a rape a rape victim She walks into a hospital and she says

43:21

I was just raped by somebody She immediately says I was raped by somebody. Did anybody see it? No, where there is there any video evidence?

43:28

No, but you were just raped. Yes quick rape kit And now we've got you say the evidence from the semen where they do

43:37

DNA testing and there's your secondary witness Right there. There's you know, we found this man's full

43:42

DNA, you know, and so absolutely that's a secondary witness So we're not saying just because one person says something and nobody was watching it.

43:49

That means that there's no hope here We're saying it has to be two to three independent lines of witness and testimony But you cannot allow a single witness to rise up against somebody

43:59

It's it just can't it's it's not just according to God's law Why because it risks it risks actually punishing the innocent right because one person could be so sinful and so corrupt they can actually try to get a person arrested and thrown into jail or whatever and You can't you can't just base it off of one person's witness

44:19

One thing yeah things about that the the passage we just read Deuteronomy 19 It says that if you do that if you offer up False witness and you accuse your brother false

44:29

So then you shall do it then what was meant to go to him the punishment for that will be given to you Yes, because the falsely accused person is the innocent person in that right situation you get their punishment if it's determined that you lied and bore false witness about that and that By the way, another principle is to act as a deterrent against anyone else doing that right in the future and so yeah, you brought up the issue of the

44:54

Rape if a woman, you know has that the Bible speaks to that in Deuteronomy 22 as well It gives the two examples of the one woman who's met in the open country

45:03

Mm -hmm, and then the other woman who's in the city. Mm -hmm, and the assumption is that in the city If there was no crying out, right she was supposed to cry out because there are people there.

45:13

She's a victim her She's the best so someone can come and help and and vindicate her and protect her and you know

45:19

Get the man off of her essentially So the assumption was if she didn't cry out then she was complicit right in that act and it also the assumption

45:25

There is let's say the rape takes place and he's muffling her You know holding her his hand over her mouth or something No one can hear as soon as it's as soon as she's free.

45:34

She cries out, right? She's crying immediately immediately letting people know. So what does God's law do there?

45:39

It actually has like this amazing little seed within it in terms of the issue of rape that says it's such a

45:46

Violation like it's this little seed to plant into cultures to see that this how you should see rape It's such a violation that if a man is truly guilty of it.

45:54

He deserves to die Yeah, he deserves to die right like not 15 years in jail three hots in a cot every day

46:02

Not anything like that if you're truly guilty of committing this sin and crime then you deserve to die

46:09

But it also has another little seed it plants in the cultures when you actually look at what God's law says about it And that's that the woman is to be upheld protected loved nurtured

46:19

She's to be heralded as the victim in all this Because it actually tells the woman from the mouth of God if there's a rape or sexual violation like this takes place

46:28

You let the world know right right like it's nothing you're not to be ashamed of this

46:33

He's to be ashamed the man who would violate another person sexually in this way He ought to be ashamed and he should die for what he did

46:41

So you go tell the world you cry out and tell everybody Yeah And within that the woman who has been violated and treated as subhuman in that act now gets restored to complete equality

46:53

Yes, right and harmony. Yeah, right her position gets vindicated by God because God sees men and women

46:59

Equal. Yeah, right And so she regains that status you see the same thing for example in Exodus 22 where the man seduces the virgin who's betrothed

47:07

Yes, right and he lies with her and then what he has to do he has to give the bride price for and make her his

47:13

Wife. Yeah, because he can't divorce her no, because he's because because the woman's what he took was so precious and so important and if he's this the

47:21

Seductress kind of guy and he's bringing this woman into this and he actually has her engage in premarital sex. Hey, bro

47:28

You you bought you just bought the whole package, right? Congratulations, you have to stay with her now, you know for all now you have to be committed you seduce this young woman

47:36

She went along with you and all of this and you made her believe that it was okay to do this before marriage Hey, guess what bro now you better you better keep your commitments because you know, it's something so precious

47:46

What's amazing about that is if you look at? The the man who seduces her there's implicit there in the original language that she was not so much of a unwilling

47:57

Participant that's right and that she in a sense was deceiving herself into believing that doing that wouldn't result in what it did

48:03

Right, and that doesn't matter because there's still a violation of that woman and more importantly He has to take it up with her father because she's under the covering of her father and the family is everything to watch this

48:13

Oh, man, oh man. Oh, man. I love this and we look at that today and we go really he's got it he's got a he's got to marry her and it's like and that Explains the cultural context we live in where all of these young men will have their girlfriend

48:30

They'll seduce her like oh I love you and you're my only thing and they'll convince this young girl to have sex with them before marriage

48:38

And then what a couple months go by they get bored with the sex They get bored with the relationship another off to the next girl

48:44

And now you have this this young precious girl with this amazing gift She had now taken away from her because it's seductress this guy that seduces her

48:53

And and robs her of this thing and if you don't believe me, I'll see you at Planned Parenthood next week.

48:58

That's right That's right. Yep, exactly And so what God's law does is it preserves and protects all of these different areas of life?

49:06

And I want to highlight the one thing you said and I know Joey probably something to say here I want to highlight what what Zach said there is

49:12

God's law actually says this that if somebody comes with an accusation They are to be examined right you diligently.

49:19

You can't just say it's a diligently. You can't just say hey I got two or three witnesses. It's all true

49:25

That's also a violation of God's law just because two or three people are saying something doesn't mean it's true

49:30

It says that the judges are to examine the witnesses diligently And if they find out they're lying

49:37

Then the person who was lying and trying to get the innocent in trouble that person would get

49:43

What this person would have gotten had the charges stuck? Which means that watch this a false rape charge in God's law a false rape charge means the death penalty

49:56

Because that guy would have been killed because of your lie That's how serious it is and God's law says this whatever the person

50:04

Who is lying? Would have would have actually accused the person of and and and ultimately led led to what what happened to them

50:11

This person was gonna get it. They were gonna get it. So what's that do? It means watch this you are careful on the stand

50:18

You are really careful on the stand because you know that you had better Be telling the truth and what it also said it spoke to something if somebody in Israel was on that stand

50:29

And they were saying hey this happened to me. You're like, hmm You're probably pretty serious, right because they know that if we find out they're lying

50:39

They're in trouble and if it's an accusation of murder, you're gonna die. Yeah, you're gonna die

50:45

That's a great and which means that if you're on that stand in Israel, you can say hey guys I know what the risk is here today

50:50

I know that if I'm lying that I die and I'm telling you right now I saw him with my own eyes and I know he did it for honesty.

50:57

That's right on the stand. That's right God's law gives incentive to be honest and have yourself vindicated. Yeah, what do we say today you perjured yourself in court?

51:04

So, what do you get a fine maybe or maybe you know slap on the hand or maybe nothing maybe nothing

51:09

Maybe you can that goes for not just perjury but for Rape as well today.

51:15

Yes the the reason why I think the world has decided that we must secure for ourselves this new form of justice is that We stopped killing we were not killing we stopped capital punishment in instances of rape where there was no death and And we also we just have a severely messed up such sexual ethic in our nation this is obviously not the situation between a child and an adult, but a lot of allegations nowadays come just from The Misunderstanding of casual sex

51:57

People who are promiscuous and meet up with random people throughout the week people who go and engage in very very risky behavior involving substance abuse and then

52:10

The issue of consent is becomes very unclear that That all falls outside of what

52:18

God wants us to do. It doesn't mean that His law doesn't work. It means that we have a

52:24

Society that has really departed from how things are supposed to be And so with you with that you see so it's amazing.

52:33

Obviously the world knows That's violating someone in that way is wrong.

52:39

Yeah, they just know it Even though many of them would claim that God's not even real

52:45

Learn his image though. Yeah, right So they know that this people even people who haven't experienced

52:53

Who haven't been a victim of that can understand like the severe hurt and and the weight that it puts on the victim of it

53:00

I do think it's I also wanted to say we were talking about The woman crying out and like Her having no shame.

53:11

I just I did want to clear up Sheologians did an episode on this and we we wanted to be careful to make the distinction that Like her lack of shame wasn't based off of her crying out, right?

53:21

the point of crying out is That God loves justice and he loves to restore the innocent.

53:28

Yes, so crying out is not It's not what makes you

53:37

Innocent that's not the case at all of it very very clearly says that and We already talked about not receiving

53:47

Justice even right justice if someone gets away with a crime especially a sexual assault

53:55

Obviously, they don't yeah get away with it but there is a

54:00

I just think that the another part of what the me to movement has brought about is a

54:07

Victim shaming and so I know that some people are gonna hear what I'm saying, and they're instantly gonna say

54:14

Oh, well, you're victim shaming just because they didn't say anything or they didn't like do anything about it Or they engaged in risky behavior.

54:19

That doesn't mean that they get to be assaulted, right? Yeah, I absolutely agree with that that they don't know you don't get to do anything like that to another person

54:29

No matter what? Yeah, I don't care about any of that you you're not allowed to do those things but I just I want what

54:39

I want to make clear is that God so values the Restoration of the innocent and he so values women in this situation

54:48

That he wants that justice yes, he can of course like justice comes at the end when you stand before God if you're without his son, then

54:59

There you go. But but he that's why he wrote the law. He wasn't not concerned about justice here on earth that's why he created a standard for how to judge and for how to take accusations and for how to punish and so So I I truly believe that the exhortation there in that case law is that by calling out?

55:20

You you especially now You're in a position where Evidence is still around where you still can find eyewitness testimony and there and I'm not

55:32

I'm not saying that if if you were a victim and you didn't call out that you are with shame because that's not what

55:39

I'm Saying at all but what I'm saying is and what you don't hear anyone not a single person in the me too movement saying is that if From this moment on from the moment you hear my voice on and what we should be teaching our kids

55:52

Is that if anyone ever does anything like this to you you cry out? Yes If any man ever has you sleep in his bed when you're seven years old you cry out and not because there's shame is

56:04

Because we want justice for you, right? Yes, if we're gonna pray, that's good Thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, man

56:11

I'm we're begging for God's justice right to be established. Thank you. Thank you for that. That's that's really important insight

56:17

I'm glad it's the most it's the most troubling thing to me about the me too movement Is that nobody is encouraging anyone to come forward?

56:25

Yeah, they're encouraging you to wait decades when When nothing can act nothing can be done that like demonstrate and it breaks my heart like I don't say nothing can be done so we just all move on and get over it like it but I don't know it's just it breaks my heart to think that Women are being encouraged or children are being encouraged or men are being encouraged to not say anything when

56:48

When you know, there could be like a restoration Yes, and not that you're not whole if you don't get that restoration, but it just I don't know it's heartbreaking

56:58

I'd love to see more people challenging you know like challenging the person that abused them and and I don't know.

57:09

I just I and see people that commit this type of crime actually being punished not six months probation not

57:18

You know a slap on the wrist not and you know what I don't like I think that Michael Jackson Displayed a lot of really inappropriate behavior.

57:26

Ultimately. Do I know based off of what's the evidence if he did it for sure? I don't know for sure, but he did enough inappropriate things where I would never let my kids near him but I don't

57:39

I don't know I just So no, you go ahead. I was gonna say I think it speaks to the kind of justice that God loves

57:46

God loves swift justice, right when the sentence against an unjust deed is not carried out swiftly The heart of man is emboldened to do evil

57:53

Ecclesiastes 8 that's right 13, right? So you have that same kind of thing where this thing hasn't been dealt with in a just manner hasn't been punished swiftly

58:02

The justice of God hasn't been carried out in a very quick manner And so you have the emboldening of the heart of man to continue to do evil and get away with it

58:11

And so God not only loves justice, but he loves it to be carried out Swiftly once the validity of the claims and the evidences are heard and established and if it's verified that you did it wrong

58:22

We're not waiting around right establish justice. Well, that's another part of that Just what we were talking about with the woman crying out.

58:28

It talks about how they would take them outside the city and Then they would be stone it.

58:36

Yeah given the death penalty now, obviously in between The event and that would be like a case not necessarily in a room like you see on law and order, but there would be a trial and then

58:51

That's another thing that people kind of miss when they read that passage. Well, I'll read it here. It's Deuteronomy 22

58:56

This is important guys. Hang with us now in this one. This is a big one. Okay, Deuteronomy 22 23 through 24

59:02

This is a case law example. You're supposed to take from the case law example principles

59:09

Take principles from that to actually apply to other cases. We do that today in our law It's based upon by the way,

59:14

God's law in the Old Testament. Our case law system is based upon God's case law system You should know that So it says if there is a girl who is a virgin engaged a virgin engaged to a man and another man finds her

59:27

In the city and lies with her then you should bring them both out of the gate out to the gate of that city

59:32

And you shall stone them to death the girl because she did not cry out in the city because she's making excuses like you know

59:38

Oh, I was raped or something and the man because he has violated his neighbor's wife Thus you shall purge the evil from among you.

59:44

I hear some good commentary on this from the ERLC article It's actually really good in terms of the language here

59:50

Listen closer to this compared to the other scenarios in this passage. These verses describe a consensual

59:55

Encounter this law does not use terms like quote C's or quote force, but simply in the

01:00:03

Hebrew fines The significant thing in this verse is the surrounding is the surroundings it defines since it is described as happening in City, it implies that there were people nearby who could have helped her had she cried out in other words

01:00:18

If this is an actual assault or a violation the point is is in the city He finds her doesn't seize her or something.

01:00:26

This is something that she's complicit in Yeah, the implication is that this is not a rape. This is not a rape. This is people.

01:00:31

This is two people Exactly, they're both doing this and and and because he violated his neighbor's wife

01:00:39

Okay, and so this is adultery and making an equivalent with adultery.

01:00:45

She's betrothed to another man So she's essentially married. She's already considered his wife So this is an adulterous situation and this is actually protecting you from people who would say oh, no, it wasn't adultery

01:00:56

I was assaulted and the answer is No, you were not seized you were not forced and you were in the city you told nobody you didn't cry out

01:01:05

You were the if that was the case you were the victim. How come there was no crying out? How can we didn't say anything?

01:01:11

How come nothing was going on because this is a consensual sexual encounter. You're both guilty That's the point now.

01:01:17

There are other examples dude. Well, that's why I mentioned People confuse that the calling out with being with shame or without shame, right?

01:01:25

But that's not what it's like a completely different situation that that verse is regarding, right?

01:01:30

So in the verse that we're talking about is right Deuteronomy 22 25 to 27 Yeah, the open country different different listen to this case law again case law principles what's happening?

01:01:40

But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged and the man forces her and see different language

01:01:46

Forces her and lies with her then only the man who lies with her shall die But if you shall do nothing to the girl

01:01:52

There is no sin in the girl worthy of death for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him

01:01:58

So is this case when he found her in the field the engaged girl cried out, but there's no one to save her so the point is there a

01:02:06

Predatorial a predatorial act the word there in the Hebrew is the word for force. He forced her.

01:02:12

He didn't find her He didn't have a relationship with her. He forced her and the implication there is she cried out

01:02:19

She told somebody right, but there was no one there to hear or to save her at the moment So who's getting the penalty here?

01:02:26

It's got nothing to do with her. She's the innocent victim God saying she's innocent He dies he dies.

01:02:32

She's the victim She's not worthy of anything except for our love and affection and protection at that point because she's an innocent victim

01:02:38

But here's the point God's law gives us a basis as to how we're supposed to filter through these questions of justice

01:02:45

And it matters a great deal it matters so much Jesus loved the law of God.

01:02:51

God says that his law is ultimately going to come from Zion and go throughout the earth

01:02:56

It's gonna be the standard of justice in the world. And that is something not that saves us at all

01:03:01

It's Jesus that saves us. He took the justice of God for us He's the one that gives us his righteousness as a gift. However, the law of God is is good.

01:03:09

It's good. It's true It's lovely. It's just Deuteronomy chapter 4 says very very clearly that the nation's supposed to look into the law that God gave

01:03:18

Israel and they were supposed to be like Oh, what kind of God is this? Like what kind of nation is this has a

01:03:23

God so near to it and with laws like this Now we we look today and we have such a perverse justice system.

01:03:31

It's I guys listen I've been a pastor for a very very long time and I gotta tell you I've been into courtrooms with people that I love

01:03:37

And seen things happen in terms of injustice is perpetrated and people charged with things and accused of things with no real evidence

01:03:45

Just just somebody say so and I've seen people that I love So genuinely hurt and wounded by our justice system.

01:03:53

That is so perverse Today, we we we want God's standards here in terms of Accusations and justice and those sorts of things

01:04:03

So what are we saying? Let's let's and let's start to end the show now We've yeah, I've been going for a while here. What are we saying in terms of like, what do we need to lay down here?

01:04:09

What are God's standards in terms of receiving accusations? Let's do that. Yeah. Well, I mean two to three witnesses

01:04:15

Obviously, we know that is the principle But I think go ahead. I was just gonna say I think ultimately

01:04:21

Understanding the seriousness of God's law rests on an example, you know that you gave even though you didn't give details it's the importance of protecting the family because in God's law, it's all about The family being central and if you come against that institution whether adultery, you know child molestation all of those are attacks on God's designed ordained vehicle to accomplishes his purposes in the world

01:04:46

And so the family is central as the offended party in God's law, right not the state or any other large entity

01:04:54

It's the family ultimately that that gets the most protections and within that marriage, right?

01:05:00

because of the the procreation of children and the continuing of that so Yeah, I mean two to three witnesses the inquiring diligently of the witnesses cross -examination

01:05:11

Would be another study principle that you would need to be engaged in if you look at that passage What's amazing about Deuteronomy 19 where the judges are to inquire diligently?

01:05:20

Who are they also surrounded by the priests? Mm -hmm It's almost like God's people or they're advising them as to matters of justice and wisdom

01:05:28

No, they certainly are because in the Old Testament the king was supposed to keep a copy of God's law written Mm -hmm when he governed according to the civil office of his affairs

01:05:37

Yeah And so the priest was supposed to give guidance and advising are we ever to receive the accusation of one independent witness?

01:05:46

No, no God's law forbids that and so what we have to do is we take things by a case -by -case basis and we say is there any

01:05:55

Corroborative evidence two to three independent lines of evidence that demonstrate this person's accusations. Now.

01:06:01

Here's the thing Look, this is important as a Christian. You can be suspicious Right, you can hear somebody's testimony and be suspicious

01:06:08

You might even draw your own conclusion and say well, I'm personally convinced that Michael Jackson did it Yeah, and and I'll be honest with you.

01:06:14

I am I'm convinced that he did it But that's watch I'm not gonna bring a charge against him and come out publicly and start saying

01:06:22

I know based upon this evidence until I filter through The two to three independent lines of witness and evidence that God requires before you start making accusations

01:06:30

Suspicions. Okay perceptions. Okay, but God doesn't allow you to actually try a person based upon suspicion or Perception that would be a violation of God's standards of justice you can only try a person and accuse them ultimately on two to three independent lines of witness and evidence and Those two to three independent lines need to be scrutinized.

01:06:51

You need to pay attention. Is this true? Is it real? Can it be refuted and the answer is look I mean a lot of people say this even in the thread here

01:06:57

This is you guys are very it's very important. We all uphold this Innocent until proven guilty. Hey, guess what?

01:07:04

That's not an American standard. Did you know that that was from God's law, right? Innocent until proven guilty like even the thing of I have the right to remain silent

01:07:12

You know that that also is not from secular thinking that is from the Word of God the law of God principles in Scripture Innocent until proven guilty and watch this.

01:07:21

I don't have to help an accuser I keep my mouth shut if I'm truly guilty, then you've got your evidence and witnesses that can prove it independently

01:07:29

You don't need my assistance Yeah, a matter of fact in the court. I shouldn't ever even have to open my mouth

01:07:34

Why because if I'm truly guilty you didn't need my help To prove me guilty and so that's the point of that is that it you know

01:07:43

Right to remain silent is that I don't have to help my accusers because if I'm truly guilty You don't need my help to prove it

01:07:48

So never on the basis of one witness and you have to cross -examine your witnesses two to three independent lines of witness per Accusation and charge.

01:07:58

This is important. It's important. Yeah, because you can't have let's say ten people across the country

01:08:03

Making an accusation against a person based upon their own independent things and all of a sudden say well

01:08:09

I don't know. I think all of these people think all these people together can build a case Well, it's like wait a second each person's charge needs to be independently examined because if watch this

01:08:18

What if you had not ten people making a claim about a person, right? It is actually possible that only one of those people's charges are true

01:08:27

It's really one witness and their rest of them are riding on the coattails of the other one or they're making it up So that's why you have to say according to God's standards two to three independent lines of witness how?

01:08:38

for the accusation Which means that if this person's making a claim You need the witnesses to follow around this person's claim not their independent claims of some other incident

01:08:48

But this person's claim. So for example, let's let's do it in this way and maybe we can end the show with us let's say that we're in the we're in the room right now and I Sucker -punch joy in the mouth, but the cameras aren't on I sucker -punch joy in the mouth

01:09:04

Well, we have one witness one witness and two witnesses right very important so that's that's the kind of thing that's the kind of scenario that we're talking about is you need to have people that witness the

01:09:17

Incident now if you weren't in this room and I sucker -punch joy, but no one else is in here

01:09:23

There's no cameras on it's just me and her and there's no evidence. I didn't leave a mark. Although I would certainly leave mark

01:09:32

I Thought sucker -punch I should probably say smacked Yeah, I know you're really getting into there's already you already protect it.

01:09:42

You protect pedophiles. Yeah, and now you If I if I smash joy true, so my point is

01:09:48

I leave no mark on her and it's just her word against mine There's no other witnesses What can't happen is let's say

01:09:55

Zach was at home today And then Zach goes, you know what there was this one time where I also saw

01:10:02

Jeff smack somebody Well, you can't do that, right? You can't bring those things together and say well there was this one time

01:10:08

I saw Jeff smack somebody. Well, it's circumstantial. It's sir. Can you bring it people bring stuff like that to court all the time?

01:10:14

Say that's not fair. That's not fair. He did it. Yeah, you're not gonna get away with yeah, that's right Ultimately, that's right. Even if you don't pay for it in this life, you will pay for it before the mercy seat

01:10:23

That's right. That's right. Well, and I just like I can still I can still say something

01:10:30

I Can still say certainly. Hey, Jeff just smacked me. Yeah, I can still say that like the point of the calling out like we just said it's not um, if Even if justice can't be found here

01:10:43

It doesn't mean that the woman just or the child just like holds all this in and doesn't ever say anything

01:10:51

It it can be very very helpful to the person who is assaulted to say

01:10:57

This happened. Well now it may not result in well I want to add to that I was

01:11:02

I was I was minimizing it for a second So I wanted to get to that point, right? I said, let's say I smacked you and leave no mark

01:11:09

It just doesn't leave anything now. Let's say that I punch you in the face You're the only one in the room with me, right?

01:11:15

And now you go and you cry out and if I charge now Well, what do you have now? You have your witness and evidence, right?

01:11:22

And let's say also. Oh, look I cut my yeah My my knuckle on your tooth or I leave a mark on your face

01:11:29

Now you're getting into more lines of evidence and witness. It doesn't have to be somebody else has to see it

01:11:34

The point is is there has to be more than just one person say so. Yeah, that's the point, right?

01:11:40

Well in the world unfortunately, and the me too movement will tell you that cases like Cases involving sexual assault do not get like you won't win you know men are aggressors and And rape victims aren't treated fairly and you won't win, but you don't know that That is an assumption and I'm still going to content you can like me you can dislike me whatever you want to do

01:12:06

But I'm still gonna encourage Someone who has been the victim of a crime to still

01:12:12

Cry out To still cry out because you know, who's not gonna cry out the person who did it And so it's not it doesn't mean that you need to run a malicious social media campaign to destroy their life and the life of Their family that's not justice and you might think that it's making you whole but at the end of the day

01:12:29

Holding on to that and and and holding on to your shame. That was never there

01:12:35

According to God it will just drain the life out of you. Yeah, so right don't do it

01:12:41

One more thing too about the the beauty we talked about the superiority of God's law. It applies across all three spheres of government whether civil

01:12:53

Church government or family government even in terms of receiving an accusation. That's right. Kids come up to you and say he hit me.

01:13:00

Mm -hmm Well, what questions do we need to ask to establish who the guilty party is? That's right and if this has actually been done that's right the beauty and the superiority of this principle and all the principles of God's law is

01:13:11

That they are applied across all spheres of government under God, right? So I've had this is a good way to end this

01:13:17

I've had multiple instances like that in my family where let's say that Little brother and older sister come into the room saying he did this he did this

01:13:26

My first thing is okay. Well, God knows the truth and the two of you know the truth, but right now

01:13:32

It's your word against hers because there's no other witnesses and there's no other evidence So here's what you both need to come to terms with whichever one of you guys is lying right now

01:13:41

You are not gonna escape the God who knows the truth And so right now one of you knows that you're not telling the truth and you think that you're gonna escape

01:13:51

God's justice and the answer is no So the best thing to do right now is to have integrity before God and each other and to reconcile and make peace by telling

01:13:59

The truth so in that case I step sort of aside as the judge Because I can't prove anything all

01:14:05

I have is their word against their word So what do I do as I put it into the hands of God and his justice and I make sure our mind these two professing believers here

01:14:14

That they're worshiping the God who upholds all standards of righteousness and justice So I put them before the throne of God and I say you to work this out because guess what?

01:14:23

You're not gonna escape this moment. You'll give an account for every careless word. You've spoken That's right.

01:14:29

That's right. And so I give I give them to the Lord now if you're a believer and you're in Christ All the judgment and condemnation that was due to us

01:14:36

For sins past present and future were all given to Jesus on the cross, but that doesn't mean you escape the family

01:14:44

Moment that you have before the Lord as father to son or daughter Where you either get reward or lack of reward as a believer in Christ Righteous and standing before God as a gift by God's grace

01:14:55

You and I are gonna stand before God and if you say I I don't really believe that not as judgment

01:15:00

You're saved you have eternal life, but he's I don't know if I even like that idea Well, how about just one example and I'll just use myself as the example

01:15:08

How about for pastors let not many of you be teachers because you will incur what the stricter judgment?

01:15:16

Who's that talking to non -christian teachers? Pastors teachers you're gonna incur the stricter judgment not

01:15:23

Condemnation not you're going to go to hell you have eternal life But the judgment of the believer where your works made of gold or stubble and hay

01:15:34

What was it made of and so what I do is always try to point my children when they have conflict like this That can't be confirmed according to God's standards if I can't be a righteous judge in the situation

01:15:43

I point them to Christ I point them to God and his Justice and I point them to their need to be humble with each other and to know that they're not escaping the truth here

01:15:52

Even the little silly things that take place I go you realize of course, you're gonna talk to Jesus about this, right?

01:15:57

And he says I mean premier passage that he didn't come to abolish the law But to fulfill it and if in the kingdom being governed by God's righteousness

01:16:06

Whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments will be called least in the kingdom. So like you said, it's not a matter of Saved and unsaved and it's righteousness and justice within the kingdom of God That's right between those believers that Merits either you but you're the least in the kingdom of heaven or you're the greatest because you did my law and you taught others to Amen.

01:16:26

All right guys. Hey final words here. I wanted to tell you this Today last day for the meat fest 2019 last day.

01:16:40

So if you go to apologia kawaii A -p -o -l -o -g -i -a kawaii k -a -u -a -i

01:16:47

Right dot -com Slash meat fest 2019 go there and if you give towards the work of God through apology a church in the island of Kauai if you give there

01:16:56

For every $25 you give we put you into a thing We want to give away and bless people who are a part of this this mission with us

01:17:03

So we're gonna fly out two people to Arizona from anywhere in the United States of America We're gonna put you up in a hotel.

01:17:10

We're gonna let you come to the studio You're gonna meet everyone here You're gonna be on an episode of apology a radio and we're gonna take you to fogota chow

01:17:16

Which is an amazing Brazilian steakhouse where they bring to you with to you meet on swords It is an amazing experience so you can chow down all of that guys.

01:17:24

It's actually exciting. He's actually going this year Yeah, so he's thrilled. So this is the last day

01:17:30

So if you go to apology a kawaii dot -com slash meat fest 2019, you can give there and I think we're gonna do the drawing

01:17:37

Tomorrow or the next day or something like that. We'll get that going and so This is the last day so give towards the work of God in apology

01:17:44

Uh, sorry in kawaii with apology a and that's joy the girl. Yeah I'm the ninja and that's