Engaging Lawrence Krauss and Joe Rogan

The Folly of Atheism and the Need for Truth

Non-rockabodas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it.

Are you gonna bark all day little doggie, or are you gonna bite?

Delusional is okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly.

Okay, it doesn't really hurt.

Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage. Go into all the world and make disciples not going to the world make buddies not to make brosives, right?

Don't go in the world make homies right disciples. I got. I got a bit of a jiggle Nick.

That's a joke pasta. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

The fool says in his heart There is no God they are corrupt. They do abominable deeds. There is none who does good. What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of apology or radio. You can get more at apology a studios .com.

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Love to speak with you and that is joy the girl.

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So Lindsay Davis just affected from Bethel and God's done a lot of work in her life. And so I encourage you to listen to those episodes here we go. We're back and today we are engaging with Something we actually we're very excited three of us are excited about this because this is something near and near to all of our hearts.

Atheism is stupid. Hashtag it is it is atheism is stupid and I mean that in the class feel. There you go, yeah, and I mean that in the most classical sense of the term in the biblical side in the biblical sense.

It's foolish. It is stupid. It is it is an exercise in futility and ignorance. That's not saying that I'm attacking all atheists as idiots and stupid. I'm saying atheism as a worldview is foolish. It is ignorant.

It is truly classically foolish. It is blinded to the obvious decay of its own claims and the obvious foolishness of its own claims. And so we love to engage with atheism. We do have a public debate. Three on three debate we did in California at the Bonson conference a couple years ago Saiten Bruggen Kate and I were a part of that as well.

And and so you can go check that out. It's online right now I think it's close to a million views online. We've done tons of shows on atheism. We have interacted some with some of Lawrence Krauss's claims.

But I just saw a clip come across with Joe Rogan who I really really love. I love Joe Rogan. I listened to his podcast. I do. I think he's an egg. He's excellent at what he does. He's a great interviewer.

I I have a I have a passion for Joe Rogan. I love the man. And I would love the opportunity to be able to sit down with Joe Rogan to engage on some of these issues. I think he would handle it really really well.

I think we would enjoy ourselves together. I think we'd have a good time together talking about these things and I have noticed over time. As Joe Rogan has articulated some of his experience with DMT the drug DMT.

It seems like Joe Rogan even has opened up himself to the idea that there's more Than than meets the eye world. It's not just the material world and and I'd sad to say that. You know the drug experience has led him to that.

But I would love to be able to have an opportunity to talk with Joe Rogan about God about the spiritual about Transcendence and those sorts of things and I think we'd have a wonderful time. It would be a respectful dialogue.

I think we would both enjoy ourselves. So it just with that said it people have been trying this for some time trying to get a time for Joe Rogan and I Can to get connected to talk? Tweet him send him out stuff ask him to get me on the show with him.

So we he and I can have a great conversation together. I think it would benefit a lot of people and I think we'd really enjoy ourselves.

I really love Joe Rogan. I do, you know, one thing I miss about Joe Rogan is fear factor. Yes, that was one of my favorite shows ever. Yeah, they brought it back for a little bit and then it got dropped.

Yeah. Yeah, I thought that was the coolest show. Yeah.

It was when I was little until the bugs the bugs were. Yeah, not when I was. I mean, we're the same age ish basically and. Yeah, I just at that point in my life. I don't do Scale. No. No, I honestly some bugs are okay, but the cockroaches are really what yeah.

Did you. That's a no-no? Yes inert salad right there. Anything anything that had to do with poop was we got me.

That's what got me. It was the eating. Yeah. Yeah, that was that was it.

Lawrence Krauss, Religion, and the Atheist Worldview

So speaking of Joe Rogan and Lawrence Krauss Lawrence Krauss was a professor at ASU and He a physicist and he's I think he was part of starting the origins project project at ASU. So he's done a lot of stuff with Lawrence Krauss.

Sorry with Richard Dawkins so he's a well-known atheist and.

He did a we have we wanted him to come on this show so many times. Yes.

Yeah, we actually I did communicate with Lawrence Krauss at one point. He wouldn't know who I am. So I'm not saying like we're buddies or anything. But I did get to communicate with him at one point a long time ago and asked him to be on the show and it Was looking like it would happen but ended up not actually happening, which was unfortunate.

We would love to have him on the show. He'd be treated with respect and graciousness and all those things but I think it's an important conversation to have so we thought we could play through this clip of Joe Rogan and Lawrence Krauss talking about Religion and we'll just interact with it.

It's just it's a great. It's a great opportunity for us to actually communicate the Christian worldview and truth as we're sort of listening in on two guys talk about how Religion is is bankrupt or you know wrong or immoral or stupid.

Themselves and so let's let's do that. Let's get into it right away. It's just a 12-minute clip. We'll try to get through all of it that we can. I do want to also say scheduling for today. Dr. White is a member of Apologia Church.

And I had no I I didn't plan on actually doing the live broadcast of Apologia Radio at the same time as the dividing line. It's not a competition. It's not a competition and I'm gonna say to dr. White brother.

I'm sorry. But it's the only time we could do it. We'll try not to never will never ever let this happen again. Okay, so that's just a word to dr. White. All right, so here we go Joe Rogan and Lawrence Krauss on religion you can check this out yourselves the Joe Rogan University fan channel and that is on YouTube.

Don't check it out right now. Just hang with us now because we're gonna start moving through it you guys stop me whenever you want.

The Universe, Meaning, and Borrowed Presuppositions

Social beings may be found that you know if they imposed some meaning on the universe on a universe, which otherwise is hostile and Dangerous that maybe it might help bind them in tribes that maybe would help might make them Happier about being alive early on because they might be so scared of a universe that wants to kill them all the time That it would embolden them.

So there's obviously an evolutionary status. Yes. I know it's off.

Awful early into the clip, but you feel free. There's a foundational worldview assumption already smuggled in there. Yes, he's adopting as he's telling the narrative of history and this is something that atheists do quite a bit.

The universe is hostile. Mm-hmm. It's chaotic. Mm-hmm, and therefore man Imposes meaning and morality from his own knowledge and experience on it in order to harness it and control it. That's foundationally an atheistic presupposition because if the universe isn't the handiwork of a good creator God who has Inherently endowed the creation with purpose With that meaning with that morality and were to recognize that with his revelation as the source of those things.

Right his gracious condescension through his word if that's not the case. Then you have a chaotic universe in which you have to impose meaning upon and your body has to be a neutral Entity that you impose meaning upon which means you can do whatever you want with it and you can do whatever you want with the Created world because it's yours.

There's no. Everything becomes contractual right which is where social contract comes from and those things it's not God creates and therefore this universe bears the mark of the Creator and Therefore he gets to define the terms of how this thing works, right?

He tells us he reveals how the world works and the laws and the structures that Krauss relies on in order to do physics in the first place God reveals all of that and so we have to live in accordance with that in order to operate in the field that he is A part of right and at the very beginning of the show if you listen to the first two and a half minutes He says well, I wish the universe wasn't this way, but it is and so we just have to do it.

We have to we have to work with it this way, right? Well, there's a reason that I believe you Speaking out of both sides both sides of his mouth. He wants it to be that way because then he can do physics, right, but he doesn't because it's an orderly structure that's dependable and There's uniformity that he has to depend on in order to do physics and he might say all day long that it's not faith In order to assume that the future will be like the past but it is a faith commitment Every time that he does physics, that's right.

And so that's just something I would say jumping off is Automatically, there's atheistic assumptions smuggled into his explanation of the origins of the universe. Yeah, and you have to recognize it.

Yeah, absolutely. And this is really important for those of you guys that are new to this kind of engagement with atheism. This is critical to get of course the smuggling in of the atheistic presuppositions.

But also the theft of Christian presuppositions smuggled in as well. Presuppositions that don't belong to Lawrence Krauss. You have to consider for a moment now, not just what's on the surface. What's just being claimed but you have to get underneath that and ask the question Well, what does this man actually believe about himself and us others in the universe itself?

He believes that all of us are cosmic accidents that there's no justice above any of us. There's no ultimate meaning and purpose and value to really anything in the universe much less human beings. Which are just one more aspect of this accidental universe.

There's no difference between snails horses rocks dogs and humans in his Position so we are no different than space dust in his position now. He might want to value human beings, but that's just something again.

Like you said he's imposing upon others. It's a faith commitment that he has in terms of human beings are valuable and you know. We did things wrong in the past and this is the right way to do things who says right and wrong when you believe that you're just the Random result of mutations from bacteria to fish to some kind of other land creatures moving your way to African apes and here you are.

So here's all these smuggled in Christian assumptions and presuppositions like human beings have value dignity and worth and Truth matters and we should pay attention to facts and evidence and those sorts of things.

We're like, wait, wait, wait, just wait a tick. That's not atheism. At least it's not consistent with atheism. It is consistent with a Christian view of the universe which you've adopted you've co-opted that position and you're smuggling those presuppositions in.

Which do not belong to the atheist you might want to value human beings. Dr. Krauss you might say that I'd like to value human beings because I'm a human being myself. And what I want to say is well There's a lot of other creatures in this world that don't value you like you value you who's to say that you're more valuable than the snail or the horse or the tarantula or the rock or the dog or the Sea gunk, right?

I mean you got lots of stuff living on the surface of the sea. You know, you have all kinds of things that are alive and you know, what's more valuable you or them? There's a lot of people today that think that human beings we should just start killing off our offspring because we've got way too Many dang humans in this world six billion humans.

It's more like 1 billion. We need so if you're gonna have kids you got to kill those kids because we've got far too many human beings in the world Today and we've got other things in this world that need our affection and our protection.

And you know for some people in their minds and this seems so crazy. But it's the truth before God and you know it you've heard it I think I would think you have at this point. There are people that think that trees are more valuable than humans.

There are people that think that and what's your debate with them as an atheist? That's a random result of evolutionary processes just like this bag of stuff. So who's to say that it that I'm more valuable than it just because I am a human being doesn't mean that I get to Make that decision.

I'm not caught. I'm not I'm not the cosmic emperor of the universe. I'm not the ultimate standard I'm one bag of biological stuff and a universe full of a lot of a lot of other biological stuff. Who's to say that I get to make that determination human privilege human privilege.

That's right. Happens to be white human privilege, right?

Yeah, that's right.

Well, there's an outworking and a logical end to the that that explanation of the origins of the universe of being chaotic and that is we need to exercise the utmost amount of control possible over it and so that's where you have an enlarged secular state full of all these competing worldviews in which a Few people just impose the morality on them to keep everybody in check and try to keep everybody happy.

But in the end, it just leads to maximum control because there is no And there is no cosmic judgment. There is no cosmic justice. There is no ultimate ought and so it's just all about control now raw control and whoever can get in power to seize the most of it and that's all that that worldview leads to is just Destruction.

Ultimately it ends up destroying itself and the power. Those who have the power end up destroying the powerless. That's right. That's right. Okay, here we go more guys.

Look, that's that's only 22 seconds in we might had to say something. No, no, no. No, no, don't you know feel free to go ahead and stop but it's funny. There's just my point saying that there's so much to actually engage with here.

There's so much to unpack and to expose. When I said atheism is stupid I'm not just trying to just get a rise out of people. I mean Atheism is stupid in the classical sense. It refuses correction. It refuses self-examination.

It's stupid. It's foolishness as a View it it just truly is so here. Let's get some more of it to to what is religion?

Because if there wasn't religions wouldn't be everywhere, right? I mean pretty well all human cultures have religions. Each one is inconsistent with every other one, right? But which was the reason we know that they're probably all wrong.

But well.

I answer that too and now from a Christian again the a smuggled an assumption like right and wrong matters. Yeah, it doesn't matter according to your perspective. Mr. Krause. You can desire it to matter all you want, but you have just sounds coming out of this evolutionary this random result of evolution.

Coming from a three-pound brain in your head that's firing chem biochemical responses. And that is truly what it is and there are atheists that are honest enough to admit that today to say, you know.

There's just stuff happening in my brain. I have no real control over its biochemical responses. There's no necessarily right or wrong. So here's that smuggled an assumption, but the Christian world who has an answer for that why do image bearers of God throughout history have a Conception of God and even at times a distorted conception of God or gods and paganism and all the rest.

We would say because they're all made in the image of the same God and they're all gonna worship something. They're all gonna worship because they were created to worship the true and living God. But because the world has fallen and broken we would confess to that.

Absolutely, because it's not quite the way that it was supposed to be human beings refer Refused to worship the one and only true and living God and they exchange him. For something that looks like him, but truly yes.

Absolutely throughout human history human beings image bearers of God have all been involved and engaged in worship. Now we can make sense of that according to a Christian worldview and human beings suppressing the truth of God and Righteousness like you're doing dr. Krauss.

But you really can't according to your worldview because what one African ape does in this Version of human history you have is irrelevant. It's morally irrelevant. It's intellectually irrelevant. It's logically irrelevant.

There's no right or wrong or rhyme or reason. It's just what happens to be and you can't chastise other African apes because they decide to worship a stone. There's no wrong in that according to your perspective because there's no ultimate standard of what is right in the world.

Joy, you got something to say? No, okay.

It works. The fact that it's universal must mean there's some evolutionary utility to the believing. But then certain things eventually even though they worked and were useful early on as our human condition changes.

They may not be so useful. Well, that seems to be the place where we're at now as a civilization exactly.

I would argue that religion is turning out to be counterproductive now. It may have been useful early on in human history. But now what it's doing is it's getting in the way not only of progress. But of of human cooperation and this is amazing.

Go you go ahead. I was just gonna say so what's being articulated here is Enlightenment rationalism also, which in the 17th century man was seeking to make all of the areas of life which Previously as Christians were articulating for so long.

We're all under God's authority Christ's authority. You couldn't do these things apart from Christ. You couldn't do meaningful science. Apart from having God as the foundation of it because it doesn't make sense without him this is where and as a part of the Enlightenment man was seeking to alienate God from all of these different areas of life and so when you hear Lawrence Krauss talking about how Religion is now counterproductive.

Why well how so well now? We have science and we have technology and we've made all these advancements in medicine and all these things now these become What saves us we don't look to Stone Age deities anymore to save us now our Savior is technology now our Savior is The scientific method right now our Savior has become our advancements in medicine and all these things that we know now that we didn't then that religion put shackles on us before and when we transcended that and Segregated God from all these fields that allowed us to use our reason in order to realize that.

Because God was the enemy of reason he was the enemy of rational man and so humanistic neutral principles where God is Divorced essentially from these fields like science where again, it makes no sense to do physics.

It makes no sense to rely on motion or energy or any of those principles of the universe if they're not Orderly part of a system repeatable testable able to be measured able to be you know repeated all those things.

It doesn't make sense without God but when he says We don't need religion anymore. It's counterproductive. This is the worldview at the bottom of this. It's it's it's enlightenment thinking. It's it's rationalistic thinking.

And.

It's it's it's evil there there really is only two world views and the other one that isn't the biblical worldview. At the bottom is what the Apostle Paul describes as the Gentiles who are darkened in their understanding alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts.

When we say atheism is Stupid it's foolish in the sense of why? Men are ignorant apart from God is because they have hard hearts that hate God. Their ignorance comes from their hardness of heart.

Right. Well, and I think that um his characterization of religion here is kind of an oversimplification. He sees it as sort of like a past Pre-enlightenment era superstition people that people used to Like explain why the Sun would rise and go down and basically that everything was gonna be okay, because God like we needed to know everything was gonna be okay because we didn't know about things like astronomy and Theoretical physics and things like that.

But it's that's really not first of all That you know that lumping all religion together is a simplification in and of itself, but also that's not in terms of the religion increasing fitness, even if you just look at Christianity and People who worship the true God and who believe in the Bible it certainly did nothing to create it's like to increase our fitness and our ability to live because I can't even I can't even tell you how many many many people Died for this superstitious belief.

It didn't help them. It wasn't just like oh, well, I just need to know Everything's gonna be okay because I'm just stupid and I'm from before the 1900s and I don't know what I'm doing and maybe one day we'll have electricity.

Like it's just it's just not even it's not even an intelligent way to look at The way things are and and certainly I'd like to point out that historically speaking this issue As something that has always happened.

There have always been people who suppress the truth and unrighteousness. There was not a time just because people used to be quaint and not know what space was. Like it doesn't mean that people weren't haters of God or slaves for him.

Yeah, so it's just I don't know it's they're having an interview it's fine if he doesn't get all the details but this is I've heard a lot I've heard I've been to a lot of origins projects events and.

It's everyone together. Do we go to the documents together? Did you go that with us? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, there's a few I get that I've been to a gamut and um. It's all you'd think that going into like a symposium of a bunch of atheists. It would be this like scientific and Blackboards and everything, but it's all just the same like reductive.

Yeah, like Making fun of Christians during each other on like that, right? There wasn't really anything and I'm not even just I went legitimately to say yeah to be like, okay I want to hear your yeah, you're hard-hitting scientific arguments and they just never heard any right and that's hashtag.

Multiple events put on by the origins project. I think they did at the time. They're doing like to a year or so. Mm-hmm and there were years where I went to One every year where I went to one of their things and I was like, here's your moment.

Yep.

And it never happened. What boil it all down to this. I mean what he's articulating is man needed religion needed gods in order to be saved now. What he's saying is we can save ourselves With all of these things.

We don't need to rely on these idols anymore because our gods are superior. Yeah, and.

Let me just say also when Krauss makes this comment of Religion being outdated and it's counterproductive now guys. Come with me on this one. Now if you guys were getting mellow headed there for a moment I want you to just try to check back in with me for a second because this is important when Krauss makes these kind of ignorant anti-historical claims.

They need to be confronted. They just need to be confronted there. You see these audacious bold claims made by these popular atheists many many times and if you just don't know history, then you just aren't thinking and considering and like how irrational that is the institutions and the history that gave Krauss his degree and his perspective were developed by Christianity by the Christian worldview and that is a fact of history.

It cannot be ignored. So when he says like it's counterproductive today. It's like well you mean the worldview that gave you the the nation that you're in it gave you the ideas that you hold to that are just Very good ideas.

You mean the worldview that developed the world in the way that it is now because of the Christian worldview? It's watch us. It's here's thing. It's not an accident of the Christian worldview. It's not just happenstance that the Christian worldview developed Oxford Cambridge Yale Harvard all the rest it's not an accident like it just happens to be the case that those institutions were created by Christians on the basis of the Christian worldview as Christian institutions to spread the Gospel, it's not an accident that science was given rise modern science was given rise out of that.

It's because Explicitly of the Christian worldview when you'd look at Isaac Newton and all of the things that he was doing. When he was appealing to the Christian worldview in terms of all the work that he was doing and pointing to Bible verses.

That's what get that's what grounded his discovery. And when you look at all the Christians in history the famous Christian Scientists not the cult but the real Christian scientists in history that gave us what we have today in terms of technology and modern medicine.

And all the rest it's not an accident of the Christian worldview that we got all of that. It was directly derived from it even down to really interesting stories. I actually this is one of those like oh, that's funny.

Like that's that's really cool like you wouldn't think like you think it'd be deeper than that, but it is the guy who created anesthesia. Like that's an amazing story like hey, guess what guys we get to get knocked out now for like very serious surgeries.

Why. Oh. Just a little thing called the book of Genesis. Because see what happened was is this guy was realizing like it's horrible to watch these people go through this torture. Like we're just giving him whiskey and stuff.

They're alive and well and awake during these operations that are Extraordinarily painful it's horrible to watch other human beings suffer in this way. But hey if whiskey is what we got or these other medicines.

Oh my god, then it's what we got like what else are we gonna do? And so this guy is reading his Bible doing his devotional. He's a he's in medicine and he reads the book of Genesis and he's like This is interesting when God is doing this massive surgery on Adam Adam's not awake.

While God's removing the rib God puts a deep sleep over Adam to perform the surgery and to remove his rib. Now if God knocks the guy out to remove his rib and we're just cutting him open while they're like a wide awake.

He's like then we should probably try to do what God does now. I find that watch I think that's so I find that so amusing. Because who comes to that conclusion based off a text in the Bible? So it's like even little things like hey Lawrence Krauss not only have you benefited from the Bible the Christian worldview for everything that you're doing now in terms of physics because of the Christians Who gave it to you and the Christian institutions that gave it to you?

But hey, how about this if you ever have to have something removed you need to also praise God for that Dr. Krauss because it's because of a Christian Person in medicine who saw in this biblical account of what God did when he did a surgery on somebody that he said we need anesthesia so praise God for anesthesia and Specifically praise God for the book of Genesis and that narrative for anesthesia.

It's just I can keep going we can go all day long on this stuff. But that's the kind of thing that we experience today is we just don't even thank God for these blessings. We don't even think like oh, that's no big deal.

Counterproductive, how about the basis of everything that you have today is because of Christianity?

Counterproductive. It's what gave it to you and so evolution is now Is now counterproductive. But the great thing is we have we have a consciousness we have an intellect so we can actually overcome that evolutionary predilection by realizing we have that predilection and as as Feynman said the Easiest person to fool is yourself.

So if you're.

Oh.

Boy is it ever true? Dr. Krause. This is the point where we're all say a yay and amen to that. Absolutely. Okay, but let's just talk real fast. This is this is critical and this might feel like it's kind of deep for some people.

But please don't do that to yourself because this is a very actual simple concept. When you have a person like Lawrence Krauss is who's a materialist. He believes an atheist who believes that all there is in the material realm in the observable universe.

He doesn't believe in something transcendent something that transcends the physical universe in the material realm. He doesn't believe that it doesn't comport with his worldview. So when he starts talking about consciousness, you got to challenge him on that.

You don't just you don't get to borrow that from us and just use it as a sword against us. I'm sorry I'm gonna stop you there and I'm gonna take that so you stop wielding it against the Christian world.

You consciousness or intellect intellect in atheism. Are you talking about that three-pound? Piece of matter. That is is firing chemical responses. That's that's causing you to spew the thoughts and and and say the words that you are.

Like that kind of consciousness like where can I weigh this consciousness? Is it transcendent? Is it immaterial or material the thoughts and the laws of logic you're appealing to these? Concepts that you're appealing to.

Are those material in nature or those immaterial because according to your worldview if it's not material if I can't observe it Then it's not real. It's not true. So are these concepts material in nature?

Are they immaterial in nature and Can something be immaterial in nature and be true and real? How do you examine something like that when someone says well you write it down on a piece of paper. That's what you do.

Well, that's the physical representation of the concept. But the concept is outside of that. It's immaterial. It's not something that's in front of me. Actually, it's something that's Immaterial the thoughts the reasoning processes the laws of logic you're appealing to are not made of matter.

You cannot weigh a law of logic. You cannot put it under a microscope. You can't ask what color is a law of non-contradiction. Because all of us recognize that those universal and Unchanging invariant laws of logic that exist in Iceland and in Arizona.