WWUTT 2570 Q&A Great Awakening Movie, Evangelizing Roman Catholics, Pre or Post-Trib Rapture

Have you heard about a movie coming out about the First Great Awakening? What are some resources we can give to Roman Catholics to help lead them out of the

Roman Catholic Church? And pre -trib or post -trib? The answer's when we understand the text.

This is When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible commentary that we may have the mind of Christ.

Tell all your friends about our ministry at www .utt .com. Here once again is

Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. Some information concerning our website coming up here in just a moment, too.

Uh -oh. But first, opening with Psalm 104. Yes. Beginning in verse 31.

May the glory of the Lord endure forever. May the Lord rejoice in his works.

Who looks on the earth and it trembles. Who touches the mountains and they smoke. I will sing to the

Lord as long as I live. I will sing praise to my God while I have being.

May my meditation be pleasing to him for I rejoice in the Lord. Let sinners be consumed from the earth and let the wicked be no more.

Bless the Lord, oh my soul. Praise the Lord. Amen. This is

When We Understand The Text. We take questions from the listeners on the Friday episode and you can send those questions to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com

or send us a voicemail. If you go to our website, which is under construction, but you go to www .wwutt

.com. Right now you still have to add the three Ws. Click on like the contact us link or something like that.

You've got the email address in there and then also the link to send us a voicemail and we would love to hear from you.

You can record your voicemail from your phone or from your computer. So last week I mentioned that the website was under construction.

Yes. I've had a few people, two or three people now have emailed me and have offered tips on making those corrections.

Oh, awesome. To the different problems with the website, my coding and all this other kind of stuff. I appreciate it.

That is helpful. It will save me time on looking up what I'm doing wrong. And so thank you.

Yes. So when that gets back up and going, you can contact us.

It's up. It's just that I got to build the site. So you can get like basic stuff on there.

The podcast link will even take you to like a feed that will give you the latest podcast.

Nice. So there's some features on there that are pretty good. I just don't have the rest of it built yet, but that's where you can go.

Eventually I'm gonna get to having like an archive on there. There will be like lists of all the episodes organized by book.

Yeah, that'll be beautiful. 10 plus years of podcasts. I got to get all that in there.

But anyway, I only vaguely know what I'm doing when it comes to building a website. I've done a few and I used to do it a lot more often, but I haven't done it in so long.

It's kind of like you forget some of that information. Well, that and all the other stuff, like technology changes.

Yeah, right. The way that - So you got to keep up with it. The way that websites are arranged. You know, sometimes your

WYSIWYG, what you see is what you get, it's called a WYSIWYG. Yeah, sometimes the

WYSIWYG varies from one website building site to another.

So anyway, yeah, just messing with all that kind of stuff. But I appreciate the input on helping me build the site.

That's appreciated from people who know what they're doing better than I do. This next email actually also has to do with something we talked about last week.

This comes from Linda. Okay. And she says, Pastor Gabe and Becky, I listened to the recent

Q and A where you spoke about how to evangelize a Catholic. And I want to share my journey away from Rome.

So we talked about how we share the gospel with somebody who's Roman Catholic. You had talked a little bit about your leaving

Roman Catholicism and how you came into the truth of the gospel. Baptized shortly before we met.

I remember that being one of the first photos I ever saw of you. Yeah. You were being presented in front of the church, being handed your baptism certificate after being baptized.

You had the cutest expression on your face because you were definitely embarrassed by being up in front of everybody.

Yep. I remember that. I remember noticing that. I'm like, that girl's kind of cute.

Oh, you're adorable. So going on with Linda's email here, she says, what is my authority?

That is what I had to decide, Rome or the Bible. Born into a

Catholic family, educated in parochial schools for 12 years, I understand the brainwashing of Catholicism very well.

The scandals drove me to question it all, especially the murder of the Catholic nun in my hometown in 1980 and the subsequent coverup.

I wonder if that's that documentary I watched. I can't remember the year. It's been a few years since I watched that documentary, but the timeline in which all those things happened, it was a pretty thorough investigation of her murder.

I remember seeing it in my recommended documentaries and I didn't think it looked interesting, but by the time

I got done with the first episode, I was hooked and had never known about this case at all. So I wonder if that's the same one that she's talking about there.

A priest was eventually convicted, but it took 24 years. Oh my goodness. A local journalist wrote a book that divulged many secrets about the local

Catholic church that included the occult and abuse of children. I remember that. How can anyone believe this is the one true church?

I prayed for wisdom and truth. And a lot of the molestation cases that come out with the

Roman Catholic church these days. I mean, you gotta understand about that. This is a top -down problem.

It starts at the top. This is a true hierarchy where you have the

Pope at the top. And then the Cardinals and bishops and everybody else, cover -ups will go from the top down when it comes to Roman Catholicism.

So when there was that story that came out, oh, when was this now? When the story broke about the sex abuse scandals in the

Southern Baptist Convention. There were Roman Catholic guys, especially like some of the social media influencers who were

Roman Catholics, were coming out and saying, see, you Baptists are just as bad as we are. Well, first of all, it was never as bad as it was reported as being.

I won't go into all of that. But secondly, I knew this from the start.

As soon as this story was published, I knew from the very beginning, everybody was going to assume, everybody who's not a

Baptist is going to assume that this whole thing is structured the same way the

Roman Catholic Church is structured. Who's the guy at the top that we have to blame? And no, every

Baptist church is autonomous. So we don't answer to somebody else. There is not a top -down cover -up unless it's part of a church network.

Inside the church. Yes, there can be those cover -ups, but it's not gonna be a top -down organizational cover -up.

Worldwide. Right. So it was never as bad as what the Roman Catholic scandals have been.

These have been really, really bad. And the numbers just keep climbing. They keep -

They do. Finding new scandals. And - Well, I'm grateful for that. Yeah. Oh my goodness.

Yeah, grateful that these people are being uncovered. Yes. A lot of them aren't even being removed or properly punished for the wickedness that they've done.

So anyway, Linda goes on to say, I praise God that he answered my prayer to show me his truth.

Walking away was not a momentary decision. God dealt with me over a long period of time, a period of reflection as I sorted out the details.

Now, let me stop there again to say just kind of what we had talked about a little bit last week. These kinds of things may take a long time.

So if you're not seeing immediate results from having conversations with a

Roman Catholic, don't be discouraged, keep praying. Keep having those conversations.

Don't try to go in for the kill with your theological sword. Yeah. You just wanna open -

You're undoing what was done. Right. It was all knitted together. And with knitting, you have just every one of those stitches is a knot.

So you have to just go back and unknot every one of them. Slowly undo each one.

Little bit at a time. So Linda says, there are many truths taught, talking about truths in the

Roman Catholic Church. Oh, okay, yeah. But they are mixed with many untruths called traditions.

Right. They were added to substantiate their own goals throughout history. I was surprised to learn that the

Assumption of Mary, 1950, and the Proclaiming Her Mother of the

Church, 1965, were very recent additions. The infallibility of the Pope was something many

Popes tried to initiate, but was never successful until 1870. There are no scriptures that can validate these traditions unless you take them out of context.

So what is my authority? I believe God, not men.

And Linda quotes Psalm 118. It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man.

It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in princes. And I want to share some of the things that helped me.

Here were some of the resources that helped to bring her out of Roman Catholicism. Grace to you and John MacArthur.

Awesome. You can't go wrong there. Right. Dr. MacArthur has helped me immensely in a lot of things as well.

And I know he has for millions of people. She also mentions Mike Gendron.

I think I pronounced his name right. I've seen several interviews with him, but I don't think I've ever retained if it's Gendron or Gendron. Okay.

But anyway. I'm not sure either. Mike Gendron, he's been, he was in the American Gospel documentary.

Okay. He's been on Kosti Hinn's podcast talking there also about Roman Catholicism and some of the false doctrines that are there.

Some of the things that you can do to help evangelize to Roman Catholics. And you can find his site.

I believe it's proclaimingthegospel .org. And that will get you to some of his resources there.

Nice. Now, another one that Linda mentioned is a book by Dave Hunt. I've never read any book by Dave Hunt except his anti -Calvinism book.

Okay. That's the only one I've read. And so I've always known Dave Hunt as just an anti -Calvinist guy for that reason.

It wasn't until I came into Calvinism and then I'm reading like the rebuttals to it. And I'm like, yeah, reading

Dave Hunt's, I was going, this isn't doing it for me. So anyway, he wrote a book called,

A Woman Rides the Beast. And this is about the Roman Catholic Church and the last days.

So that book apparently exposing some things about the Roman Catholic Church, very helpful for Linda.

Okay. So if anybody's curious about Dave Hunt writing a book about that gives a detailed history of the

Popes and the church is what you'll find in that book. Now, that does sound interesting to me. There was another one

I learned about just recently that was a history of the Popes. I may have already downloaded it onto my

Kindle now that I think about it. Hang on, let me pull it up. I don't think it was a Christian book, but I saw somebody talking about it and at least providing a history of the

Popes. That sounded interesting enough to me. Can't figure out where I stuck my Kindle app. Here we go.

Vickers of Christ, The Dark Side of the Papacy. That's what it is. Okay. Peter DeRosa, international bestseller.

So I guess I'm in for a good read here. There you go. Well, maybe. They've kind of changed what considers to be a bestseller.

Well, yeah, I think it was a bestseller a while back. Oh, okay. And it might actually be a true bestseller. I think it's a recent book.

This one is Sin, Shame and Secrets, A True Story of the Murder of a

Nun, the Conviction of a Priest and the Cover -Up in the Catholic Church. So that's about - That might've been the story she was talking about.

Right, that very thing she was talking about there. So this is by David Yonke. If anybody is curious about that story.

And then, yeah, so she says, it's a local story that sparked my questioning of the true church that I had been raised in.

And of course, she says, when we understand the text. Aw. Was helpful to her as well.

Wonderful. Keep these in mind the next time someone asks this question. You are correct that each person's experience within the

Roman Catholic tradition is different. Yes. My parents were not as strict as some families of my generation, but they did follow the church and its teaching.

Thank you for your ministry. It has been a comfort as well as educational. Aw. Well, Linda, it was -

Thank you. A blessing to us to hear from you. Definitely. And thank you so much. This next one, oh, this comes from Ryan.

So we've been talking about movies and things like that. We talked about the movie, David. Yes. We've talked about our entertainment choices at various times.

So Ryan sends this email, Pastor Gabe and Becky, finally a movie to be excited to see during the Easter weekend.

An important time in our nation's history and the Lord used George Whitefield and unbeknownst to Ben Franklin to spread the gospel before the

Revolutionary War. This is a movie that is called The Great Awakening. Okay. Now I've queued it up here.

I think I've watched this trailer, but I've queued it up for us to see it together here.

So here we go. This is the trailer for the film that's coming out this spring entitled A Great Awakening.

Okay. Benjamin Franklin, your brother said he could use your help at his print shop.

You have my blessing. Gonna do good things, Pa. Great things. ♪ From the ocean ♪

Now I hope that in playing this, I'm not gonna get flagged for having - You know, you probably will.

Having a song in here. Anyway, this is from Sight and Sound Films. ♪ Runs through the valley ♪

George Whitefield, you will be an extraordinary preacher. Remember the source of your power.

You don't believe the stories from London are true? I am doubting Whitefield's claim that he can be heard and understood by so many.

Without evidence, I won't believe it. Let us proclaim freedom to the captives whom the sun sets free.

It's free indeed! Have you ever heard a voice like that? The blast from heaven.

Benjamin Franklin. Reverend Whitefield, partnering with me would guarantee the maximum benefit to your cause.

A match made in heaven. Or just a deal made in a print shop. General George Washington.

Today, we stand in an even darker valley. The survival of this country must be our chief concern.

This constitution cannot fail. We cannot let the sun set on this nation. You are lighting a powder keg, my friend.

When you follow him, you are led by love. Why can't

I get through to you? I choose evidence over faith. Stop trying to change me.

You have promoted the greatest awakening these colonies have ever seen. The lightning bolt,

George. I am just the lightning rod. The salvation.

One tiny candle illuminates a thousand. Rise, O sleeper!

Awaken! Well, that sounds pretty good to me.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. So that film is entitled A Great Awakening. Of course, it would be talking about the great awakening that happened in New England.

250 years in the making, it says. This year is the 250th anniversary

Yes, it is. Of the United States of America. Whoop whoop! So that is timely about George Whitefield and his open air preaching, the ministry that he did during that period of time.

It looks great. The trailer does look great. It does. It looks very intriguing. So it might be one of those movies that's up there with like Amazing Grace about William Wilberforce.

He was a protege of John Newton who wrote the hymn Amazing Grace. Oh, okay, yeah.

And Wilberforce had ended the slave trade in Great Britain.

Oh, nice. Have you ever seen this movie? No. Wow, we've never watched this together. No, I don't do history. This is a great film.

Like historical films usually because most of the time they're sad. It's got its moments.

Exactly. Yes. Yes. See, I've already pegged a lot of these. It doesn't end sad though.

Okay. It ends with the abolition of slavery. Okay. And yeah. That's a good place to end.

It has. A movie that is. I will say this too. I think the film Amazing Grace has one of the most moving endings that I have ever seen in a film.

Am I still gonna cry because it's so beautiful? Might. Yeah, you might. Okay. So not because it's sad.

Right. But because it's so triumphant and good. We'll see. If I'll watch it.

For those of you who don't know, I do not like. She does not do sad movies. Sad movies.

I don't like crying because once I start, it's like, I can't stop. And it's just,

I'm a blubbering mess. So for whatever reason, I don't remember how

I managed to avoid this, but out of the 17 months that we dated and were engaged before we got married, in that period of 17 months, did we just never watch a sad movie?

No. Because I don't ever remember watching anything that left you really miserable after we watched it.

Right. But then we got married and there's all these movies. And he's just like, piling them on.

That did not go well for me. No. No, it did not. I was not having very good nights when

I would pick a sad film. And he actually tried to pick a decent film. Yeah. And then it ended up sad because of how

I interpreted it. Yes. And yeah, that didn't go well either. So he had to be super choosy with what he watches.

After that, I was like, okay, I got it. No sad movies. And there've been some films that I've seen without you that are just fantastic films, but I know that you won't make it through it.

Nope. No. Yep. She's not gonna do the sad and tears.

Yeah, not yet. Maybe one day, but not yet. It was just this past week, the students that I teach at the

Christian school, I just recommended to them, Amazing Grace. There is in that film, because I said to them, are you guys familiar with Marvel movies?

So, you know, Dr. Strange. Yeah. Okay, he's played by an actor named Benedict Cumberbatch or Benedict Cucumberbatch, as I like to call him.

Okay. Anyway, when you watch Amazing Grace, you get to see a very young Dr. Strange.

Oh, wow. Because he plays the prime minister of England in that movie. Neat. That's a film that I will recommend.

So we've talked before about how, like, I don't do any recommendations because I just don't know what will cause a person to stumble.

Yes. And entertainment choices always are very subjective. Yes. But this is one that I plan to check out.

I don't even mind plugging it. And Amazing Grace is another one that I can recommend. Yeah.

That you would probably enjoy if you haven't seen it. All right, next email. This comes from Pam.

Hi, Pastor Gabe. I am a recent discoverer of your YouTube channel and podcast and have become a huge fan.

Aw, that's awesome. Flattery will get you everywhere, Pam. Happy to read your email.

Your exposition of scripture has really opened my eyes and brought clarity to many theological questions

I had previously struggled with in the past. So I trust your ability to help me with my question.

Okay, the pressure's on. Here we go. I am part of a women's Bible study on Sunday mornings.

And this morning, the ladies got into a bit of a lively discussion about the rapture.

All of the ladies, except myself, fall into the belief that the rapture is after the tribulation and that we as believers will go through the same chaos and persecution as the world.

Ever since listening to a teaching by John MacArthur on the subject, I have believed what he taught, which is that scripture supports a pre -tribulation rapture.

The women's argument was that endurance until the very end is what scripture supports and that the concept of a pre -trib rapture has only been around for less than a century.

Am I wrong on this? And they are right. Please help me to understand this, even if it means putting to rest the idea that scripture is clear one way or another.

I know being prepared for whatever is to come is the most important thing, but I would love to hear your thoughts as I trust your understanding of biblical doctrine.

Thank you so much for your ministry and for your sound teachings. Well, I appreciate that,

Pam. You know, when I was growing up, my dad really did not teach me much about eschatology.

So the study of the end times is an area of theology that we refer to as eschatology.

And he taught me some things, he would say some things, but he wouldn't really like fix me on a particular position.

The only thing that I would ever hear him teach on really was that he was not a dispensationalist and that's what

John MacArthur is. So that's this view that there is a rapture than a seven -year period of tribulation and then

Jesus returns again. So my dad wasn't there, therefore I was skeptical of the view as well.

So it was already in me as I was growing up that I'm skeptical of dispensationalism. And I would say though that he didn't ever really tell me it was wrong.

I would just hear him make critiques about it. When I would listen to my teachers teach it, all the churches that we attended when

I was growing up, every one of them without exception was dispensationalist. So they all taught that there was a rapture of the church, then the seven -year period of tribulation in which the antichrist is also revealed and then the return of Christ again at the end to take up those who had been saved during the seven -year period of tribulation,

God dealing with Israel and so forth. And then those who were raptured come back, those who remain are taken up and the bodies are raised from the grave, we're reunited with our bodies and then we are forever with the

Lord. So that's the view that I grew up listening to. I spent more of my life in that view than I did in any other view.

And yet when I heard my teachers teach on it, even I had trouble with it, though of course my dad wasn't dispensationalist, but I had trouble with just what they were saying because then when they would open the scriptures to support their view, the passages they read,

I didn't hear it. And I did not see anywhere, anything in scripture that said about the rapture what they were saying that it was.

I'm like, where is this timeline that you're talking about of there being a rapture of the church, a secret rapture for that matter.

So oftentimes this is characterized as the secret rapture. Whenever you watch all of the end times, apocalyptic films in which people disappear.

They just poof, they're gone. Yeah, and their clothes are left behind. Right. It might be, and there's so many different movies that I've seen,

I may have seen pretty close to a dozen films that have had their own takes on the rapture.

And it's been everything from a pile of clothes on the ground to like they're neatly folded with their shoes on top.

Okay. I mean, there's been so many different interpretations of this to the person completely disappearing and they don't leave anything behind.

Right. But of course, everything's chaotic because cars are crashing, planes are crashing. Yes. Everything's malfunctioning and stuff's breaking because the people aren't there to run it anymore.

They've all just kind of disappeared. Right. So this is the common

Christian apocalyptic fiction from a thief in the night, which was probably the first film

I saw. That one came out in the seventies. Then you also had the left behind movies. And then there were a bunch of other

Christian B movies that kind of espoused the same thing. Jerry B.

Jenkins and Tim LaHaye who wrote the left behind series. This is exactly the view that they take. So this has been the majority view in Christian evangelicalism.

Right. Now it's becoming less and less. It's becoming less common than it used to be.

Amillennialism seems to be the view that's on the rise. And rather than a pre -trib, pre -rapture view, the one that's becoming the most popular is what's called a pre -wrath view.

And that's simply the understanding that the church gets raptured before the wrath of God gets poured out.

Oh, okay. And along with the pre -wrath view is really the view that I take that the rapture of the church and Christ's return and pouring judgment out on the wicked are really the same event.

So let me read to you here from 1 Thessalonians chapter four. I'm gonna read from 1

Thessalonians 4, 13 through chapter five, verse 11. And this is the most succinct and detailed description of Christ's return that we have in the

Bible. And I'm saying that it's even more descriptive than Matthew 24, like the

Olivet Discourse. Right. Because what Jesus is talking about there with his disciples is first the destruction of the temple.

Now, can you read in that passage a description of the return of Christ? Yes, but what he's immediately talking about, the immediate question that he's answering is about the destruction of the temple and the judgment that comes on Jerusalem, which would happen 40 years later in AD 70.

Right. That's the thing that Jesus is talking about. So if that is a sign, if that destruction is a sign of what will come later upon the world when

Christ returns, okay. But you still have to read that interpretation into the answer that Jesus is giving to the disciples.

This passage right here from 1 Thessalonians 4 to chapter five is specifically about the return of the

Lord. So this is what we have in this passage, starting in verse 13 of 1

Thessalonians 4. But we do not want you to be uninformed brothers about those who are asleep so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

So let me stop there for a moment. That's just two verses. But Paul is responding to a church that's concerned about their loved ones who have already died.

And they're wondering, have they missed the day of the Lord? Right.

They probably have a very Greek understanding of death that when a person dies, they just are obliterated.

They cease to exist. So since they're not alive with us, if the Lord returns, have they missed out on that day?

And Paul is assuring them that they're asleep. He uses the term asleep so that they don't think of them as permanently dead and completely gone.

Right. Their bodies are asleep. Their soul is with the Lord, but even the body itself will be raised.

So there's no reason for you to grieve as others grieve over death. They have no hope, but we have our hope in Christ.

Even those who have fallen asleep will be with us on that day. That's what Paul is setting the stage for here.

So verse 15, for this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the

Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the

Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.

And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up, keep that in mind, caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the

Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

So you hear the description there of those who are rising from their graves, being reunited with their souls, us being part of that as well with the return of Christ as he comes.

And all of us are together. We will always be with the Lord. So those who have preceded us in death and those who are still alive when

Christ returns, we're still a part of the same day. Yes. And I've talked about this before, how my grandmother

Mimi, just so wanted to see the rapture. Yes. She was just anxiously looking forward to that day.

It was the one event in history that she wanted to see most. Yes. And wanted to be a part of.

And of course she passed away at the age of 83. That was just a few years after we got married.

Yeah. 2013, I guess it was. No, 2014. 2014 was when she, okay, 83 and 2014.

Okay. Yes. So of course she even on her deathbed was lamenting,

I don't get to see the rapture. Yes. And I wasn't there, but if I had been there, I would have said, Mimi, we will all get to see the rapture.

Yes. We're all gonna be there. Definitely. When Jesus returns and we're caught up with him in the air. Now, the language that's used here, a couple of things

I wanna come back to you before we go on into chapter five. The language that's used here is the language of war.

So this is a picture of like when a king comes back into a city after being triumphant over his enemies, the people will come to the gate and meet him at the gate as he comes into the city.

So this is the kind of the picture that Paul is creating here in verse 16. The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, the voice of an archangel and with the sound of the trumpet of God.

What is that? Those are sounds of victory. Yeah. They're also sounds of war.

They're war cries. Right. Okay. They're also very loud. Very.

So when my teachers would teach this passage and they would try to read into it, this pre -trib rapture, the secret rapture that's gonna happen, where people just disappear and they just leave their clothes behind.

We don't know what happened to them. They just vanish. Yeah. Okay. Sometimes in the apocalyptic movies, there would be some sort of trumpet blast, like it would be or something like that.

And then everybody would be gone. Oh, that's weird. Sometimes it would be that, but it would still be left with like, nobody knows what's going on.

Right. The people who are left are going, what just happened? And my mom, so even though my dad was skeptical of dispensationalism, my mom was not.

She was still on the dispensational side because my Mimi was on the dispensational side, her mom.

Right. And so when I would ask her questions about it as a kid, like, what's it gonna sound like? And what's it gonna be like?

And all these kinds of things. And she would say that, oh no,

I remember what it was. I would ask her, well, if there's this loud trumpet blast and we get raptured, then how does the rest of the world think about this after we're gone?

Like, what's their explanation? Because the Bible's already said what's gonna happen. We disappear.

There's been a loud trumpet blast. So how's the rest of the world gonna explain that when it's kind of clear the evidence has been, oh, the

Christians were right all along. Look, all the Christians are gone. Right. And I remember her explanation to me.

What'd she say? She said that the rest of the world that remains is gonna convince everybody else that it was aliens.

Oh, well, that could be. That aliens came and took us up and we were all abducted.

That could be. That was her explanation for it. I don't know if she got that from a book or she just came up with that.

But that was my mom's explanation. I know somebody else that has taught this.

I'm pretty sure he has. I'm not gonna mention his name because I don't know for sure that he said this, but I'm pretty sure

I know the guy. I know the guy who said something similar to this. Anyway, so all of these are very loud sounds.

This is not gonna be a secret rapture. It's gonna be bright and it's gonna be loud. Right. And even

Jesus himself, if you're taking the Olivet Discourse and understanding from that a description of the end, then

Jesus says as lightning shines from the East as far as the West, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. So the whole world will see him.

This taking up of Christians is the coming of the Lord. It's not just a sudden rapture and Jesus isn't there.

He's there. Yeah. He will descend from heaven. Right. The King of Kings. Exactly, he will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with a voice of an archangel, with the sound of the trumpet of God.

This is the second coming. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds.

Now that term caught up together in Latin is rapturo. And that's where we get the expression rapture.

Right. Now, because I don't believe in a pre -trib, pre, yeah, a pre -trib, pre -mill, yeah, anyway, because I don't believe in a pre -trib rapture, we'll go with that.

Okay. Then it is often said of me that I don't believe in the rapture. I remember when

I was working with Pastor Tom and he would say, well, you don't even believe in the rapture. Yes, I do. I just don't believe in the rapture you believe in.

I believe we're gonna be caught up in the air, exactly what's said in 1 Thessalonians 4. Yeah. I just don't think it's gonna be at the beginning of a seven year period.

Different situation. Right. Yeah. And so then we will always be with the Lord. Now this is important before I go on to chapter five, verse 18, therefore encourage one another with these words.

Now this has been my passion ever since I started teaching on end times doctrine.

Whenever I talk about this, I am not trying to divide. So I am not ever saying like this group, oh, they're just heretical or they're gonna be missing out on the rapture because they have a different view than I do or anything else.

This is not to divide. And I don't think that any church should set in their membership requirements that a person has to have a certain end times view in order to become a member of that church.

Right, no matter what that end times view is. Whatever the end times view is. Right. And we don't, even at Providence Reformed Baptist Church, we do not have anything set in our membership requirements that you have to have a specific view of the end times.

You have to believe that Jesus is going to return. Oh yes. And that the whole world will see him.

Yes. And that we will be taken up with the Lord. Those things you do have to believe in. But the timeline in which those things happen is it at the beginning of a seven year period of tribulation?

Is it the end of seven years? Do you not even believe in a seven year period of tribulation at all? You know, those are details that we can disagree on.

Is the millennium now as the amillennial and post -millennial view would say? Post -mills probably don't even believe we're in the millennium yet.

Then, or is it the pre -mill view in which the millennium is after the return of Christ?

Whichever view you take, you can still become a member at Providence Reformed Baptist Church.

Right. And any church that I pastored, that's been the case. There has never been a requirement in our membership standards that you have to have this view of the end times.

Not being divisive over it. Just willing to discuss it, but not -

Yeah, willing to discuss it. But not to like be angry over it. Yes, definitely. Right.

You know, that would be the thing that I would look for. I've seen a lot of division.

I've seen a lot of division happen because of this. And so, it has been my passion, therefore, to talk about end times views, to get excited about it, but be encouraging of one another with these views.

Yes. Don't divide against one another. Right. These should be things that we talk about that make us hopeful -

Definitely, yes. For the coming of Christ. Not drawing our denominational lines and things like that, right?

Yes. Okay, so let's go on to the next chapter. Now the - Eschatology lines, I guess. Right, yeah.

Our different lines of eschatology, drawing lines in the sand and therefore dividing on other sides of those lines.

So that's 1 Thessalonians 4, 13 to 18. Usually when I do this,

I'll just read through the whole thing so that you can hear there's no break. You really have to pretend there's no chapter five here.

Okay. We're still just reading the same passage. Right. Because Paul is not breaking this up into chapters.

Even though there's headlines and stuff like that. Yeah. That's not his. Exactly. Okay. Yeah, the English Standard Version adding these headlines, those aren't divinely inspired.

So chapter five, verse one. Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.

For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Okay. Paul uses the expression thief in the night. Yes. Jesus uses the expression thief in the night.

Peter uses the expression thief in the night. Right. There was that movement. There was a movie in the 1970s that was called

A Thief in the Night. And it was about this secret rapture that comes upon the world, the

Christians disappearing. And then the rest of the movie takes place during that seven year period of tribulation.

Most of that drama is right there. And all of the weird chaotic stuff that's gonna happen with the revealing of the antichrist and the mark of the beast and everything else.

That's all the drama that's in that film. But it's called Thief in the Night because when Jesus returns, he's sneaky.

Like a thief in the night. You don't know he's there. And then everybody secretly just is whisked away and he's gone.

Okay. You're looking at me funny. Yeah. Because I took on a weird voice. Is that why? No, it just sounds not like Jesus.

Right. It's not the description that we just read in chapter four. And it doesn't sound like his character either.

Cause he's never changing. He doesn't change from one thing to another, but I don't see him being sneaky.

He's the same yesterday, today, and forever. Amen. Yes, totally. Now we have this idea of his coming being very quiet and secretive like a cat burglar.

Okay. That's the way we're interpreting. When you've seen these secret rapture things, they interpret it as like a cat burglar coming in real quiet in the dark, you don't even know he was there.

Right. But there's so many things that are, sorry. What? I was gonna jump to like the master knocking at the door.

Yeah, like in Matthew 24. Can I come in? Yes. Like, no, no, no, no, no. He's letting you know he's home.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're talking the passage in Revelation three, behold, I stand at the door and knock.

Yes. Right. No, that's not how that goes. He's not asking if he can come in, the master's coming home.

Right. Yeah, that's what it is. He doesn't have to ask permission. He's letting you know, hey, open the door because you have that big boulder or not boulder, but the big.

The beam that goes across the door. That's what I was looking for. Well, it's because the servants are supposed to be up and working and anticipating the master's return.

So if he knocks, they're there and they're like, okay, come right in. And if they don't answer, then they're not doing their job and he's gonna kick the door in.

It's the way Paul Washer put it. He's gonna kick the door in. And Votie Bockham too, I think said the same thing.

I think so. So anyway, the. Anyway, yeah, sorry. The thief that we're talking about here is not a silent cat burglar.

It's smash and grab. Right. Remember the riots that happened all over the

United States back in the summer of 2020. There was nothing quiet about it. Right, what kind of thieves were they?

They were smash and grab. That's what this is talking about. Jesus saying in John 10, 10, the thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy.

Does that sound like a cat burglar? No. But then Jesus saying, but I have come that you may have life and have it abundantly.

So the concept of a thief is not cat burglar, it's smash and grab. And the

Lord coming like a thief in the night is something everyone will see. He's described as a thief because to the one who is not looking for him, his coming will be sudden and unexpected and unwelcome.

Right. Like they don't want him to come. Right. So to them, the return of the

Lord will be like a thief. Like I should have prepared for this. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And Jesus even goes on to say, while people are saying, this is verse three, while people are saying there is peace and security, which was a mantra in Rome at that time.

Right. Then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman and they will not escape.

So thief in the night is described as sudden destruction. It's not a sneaky rapture.

It's the Lord coming with a loud pronounced return and he brings judgment upon the ungodly.

Those who are believers are raptured up as we saw in chapter four. And then chapter five is showing us the judgment that comes upon those who did not believe.

I think we get lost on the word thief because the thief on the cross, you know, like.

Yeah. The books always portray it as, at least the children's books, you know, portray it as, oh, he's just a bad guy.

You know, like that's all he did. He just stole stuff. But really to be on that cross.

Yeah. And to die that horrible, horrible death, he had to have done something seriously bad.

Well, Rome was pretty strict on, if you stole, you were gonna be punished pretty severely for that.

Yeah. Rome could be pretty strict on their criminals because they wanna suppress crime.

Well, sure, of course. And here we're gonna make an example out of you. So everybody else will think twice before they steal something.

So you think it was just like a, he stole a sheep, just one. I mean, it was probably more than just, he took an apple off the cart while walking through the market in Rome.

You know, it was probably more than that. Well, Jerusalem, I guess. Yeah. Anyway, I'm sure it was more than that, but they are described as thieves.

That is their reputation. That's what they are being tried for and executed for.

And the thief who asks Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom, he said to the other thief, we deserve this.

Yeah. Like what we're being up, what we're being hung on these crosses for, we are getting what we deserve.

Right. So he recognized his own sin and the wickedness that he had done was not just against the empire of Rome, but it was even against the law of God.

Yeah. And so he's getting the judgment that he deserves, but asked Jesus to remember him when he comes into his kingdom.

Now Barabbas, who was set free in exchange for Jesus, was also described as a thief, but he's also described as a murderer.

So that was a guy who led an insurrection. He was part of an insurrection and actually killed people. So he had a much more serious crime that he was guilty of, but gets let go because the people wanted

Jesus to be crucified. Set Barabbas free, crucified Jesus. But anyway, so the thieves are described as thieves and we don't have them described as anything else.

They probably did more than just like steal a pack of gum at the grocery store. They had a reputation for thievery.

Fair. But yeah, you know, thief, we think of something sneaky, but clearly the context of this here is smash and grab.

Right, okay. So the destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman and they will not escape.

That's another metaphor that gets used a lot. Peter, Jesus also describes the end as being like labor pains.

And for those of you who have not had labor or it's been a while since you've been in labor, it is very, very, very painful.

That's part of the curse. Oh my goodness. Sorry, y 'all ate the apple first. Yeah, but where were you guys?

Looking at the birds. Look at those birds. All right, verse four, number four, verse four.

But you are not in darkness brothers for that day to surprise you like a thief.

So it comes like a thief on those who will be under the judgment, but not for those who are in Christ and looking for his return.

For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.

So then let us not sleep as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.

For those who sleep, sleep at night. And those who get drunk are drunk at night.

So talking about those who are unbelievers and they live these debaucherous lifestyles and they do their sins at darkness so they will not be seen, but we're supposed to be children of the day.

Verse eight, but since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.

For God has not destined us for wrath. I'm gonna come back to that. God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our

Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep, we might live with him.

Therefore, encourage one another and build one another up just as you are doing.

There we have that instruction again. So we had that at the end of chapter four and then at the end of this section in chapter five, once again, encourage one another with these words.

Build one another up just as you are doing. Now that mentioned in verse nine, for God has not destined us for wrath.

That statement is often used as a defense of the dispensational position or the pre -trib rapture because they will describe that seven year period of tribulation as being the wrath of God coming upon the earth in those seven years.

But the wrath of God and the judgment that Christ pours out on the world, those who are of a post -trib view or those who are of the pre -wrath view, that I described before, they don't even see that seven year period of tribulation as being the wrath of God poured out in its full sense.

That's when Jesus returns. That's when the judgment and the wrath get poured out. So yeah, the tribulation period is difficult, but it's nothing like when

God's judgment gets poured out at the return of Christ. And if we were to keep going into second

Thessalonians chapter one, so we have another chapter connected with this one. You go to the very next chapter, first chapter of second

Thessalonians one, verse five. This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God for which you are also suffering.

Since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us.

When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know

God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus, they will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction away from the presence of the

Lord and from the glory of his might. When he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints and to be marveled at among all who believed because our testimony to you was believed.

So from first Thessalonians four to chapter five to second Thessalonians chapter one, this really sounds like the return of Christ, the taking up of his saints and the pouring out of his judgment on the wicked are all the same event.

Yeah. All of those things are happening on the same day. And again, this is where we get the most description of that out of the

New Testament. And these were the things that when I was a kid and I'm listening to my teachers explain, they got their charts up there and here's what the end times looks like.

And here's where the rapture is. Here's what's going on to the seven year period of tribulation. Here's Christ return again.

Here's the millennial reign. And I'm looking at this timeline in this chart and I'm trying to find it in scripture and I just don't see it.

Yeah. And this understanding of there being this week or this seven years of tribulation is, it comes from a certain interpretation of Daniel 9 .25.

And you really have to read that interpretation into Daniel 9 .25,

because that prophecy there is not descriptive. Even in Daniel 9, it doesn't say, there's gonna be a rapture and then a seven year period of tribulation.

Like you have to come with that onto the text. And I'm just giving you my explanation.

This is one of the few areas that I disagree with John MacArthur. Loved him, still love him and will still promote him and share his teachings and his books.

I wanna get that Doctrines of Grace book that just came out, which was the last book that he approved before he died.

And of course it's his teaching, but it was all put together in that book. He read the manuscript, approved it, but then didn't get to see the final printing before he passed.

I wanna get that book. I'm still looking forward to that one. But anyway, love the teacher, just disagreed on his view of the rapture in the end times.

But he is still one who, when he teaches first and second

Thessalonians, he encourages others with these words. And he has people that would come and preach at his church that were not of the same end times persuasion as him.

Votie Bauckham and John MacArthur were great friends. Votie Bauckham was an all millennial. And he did not believe in a pre -trib rapture view.

I believe that Paul Washer is historic pre -millennialism. He might be all millennialism.

I don't remember. Mark Dever is historic pre -mill. Al Moller, who's speaking at the

Shepherds Conference next week, he is historic pre -mill. So, which is not dispensational.

They have the same view of where the millennium is, but just not the same view of where the rapture is.

So there's people that have different views of the end times that John MacArthur has welcomed into his fellowship and has had teach at his conferences.

And they encourage each other with these words. It's not been a cause of division. But as I see it, as I've shared with you, the way that these things are described in the

New Testament, I just don't see that pre -trib rapture view. And I mean, that's good.

I really, I'm a wait and see kind of person.

So yeah, so going back to my dad. So when he would say about these things, and I would ask him questions about it, it was almost like he kind of felt like,

I want to let Gabe figure this out on his own. That really was kind of his approach. That's what I was assuming.

And there were a lot of things that were like that. Like he would teach me how to use scripture to interpret scripture, but certain doctrines and things, there were doctrines he taught me.

I mean, Trinity, he taught me about that. He taught me about the divinity of Christ. All the main fundamental things

I learned from my dad. But some of the secondary and tertiary doctrines, it was kind of like he felt like,

I think Gabe will figure this out. I've given him the tools that he needs to read the

Bible and interpret it and understand it. And which eventually led me into reform theology because he wasn't reformed, still is not to this day.

But he, in teaching me to use scripture to interpret scripture, well, the statement of faith that we use as a church, the second

London Baptist confession of faith 1689, that's in the confession. The best way to interpret the scripture is by using the scripture to interpret the scripture.

So my dad was already giving me the tools that eventually led to this anyway. But when it came to end times,

I remember him saying, when I was asking him questions about the rapture. So dad, are we believing what all my teachers are saying?

That it's this pre -trib rapture? Or does the rapture, I heard even a comedian, a

Christian comedian that was joking about pre -trib and mid -trib. There's a mid -trib rapture view. Oh, okay.

That Jesus comes back in the middle of the tribulation period. Oh, right. And then there's post -trib.

So where are we? What do we believe? And this was what my dad said. He said, pray for pre, prepare for post.

So if Jesus comes back. Wise man. Yeah. If Jesus comes back at the beginning, great. Yes. And we don't have to go through the tribulation.

But if he comes at the end, be ready for that. Anyway, just so we're not setting ourselves up for failure.

And then he didn't come when we thought he was going to. Right. And now we're like, maybe he's not coming at all.

And we ran out of lamp oil. Hey, that's good. Yeah. You're remembering the parable. So these are good things to consider and to have that view of, like you said, be ready for anything.

Yes. It's always good. Pan millennial is the other way that's referred to.

It's all gonna pan out in the end. Exactly. Yes. My brother, Jeff, one of our deacons at the church. That's exactly his view of the end times.

Yeah. But regardless of whatever your view is, may it be something to encourage one another and build each other up with these words.

Amen. Not creating division or tearing one another down. Yes. So thank you so much for your question,

Pam. And like I said, if you're gonna flatter us like that when you write an email. That's so sweet.

I'm likely gonna answer your question. So there are other questions that I have here. We just didn't have enough time to get to, but I've got them in the cache and we'll get to them at a later time.

Once again, if you have any questions, send them to whenweunderstandthetextatgmail .com or once again, the website, www .utt

.com. I'm gonna move things around. So again, the links that I say are in the top right corner of the page.

We'll get back there eventually. But for now, if you click on the About Us section or the

Contact Us section, that's where you'll find the link to send us a voicemail. Yeah. And you can record that from your phone or your computer.

We look forward to it. Well, babe, it's been wonderful as always. Aw, thanks. Let's finish with prayer.

Yes, let's. Heavenly Father, we thank you for this time that we have together opening your word and being reminded of such wonderful things.

We look forward to that day of Christ's return when we will be caught up together with him. Whether we have gone ahead of others in death or whether we're still here when

Jesus returns, all of us get to be partakers on that day of this triumphant return when

God will bring his elect into his eternal kingdom and the judgment will be poured out on the earth on those who did not believe.

While we live in this earth, may we be enthusiastic about sharing the gospel with others, telling them the good news that Jesus died on the cross for our sins.

He rose again from the grave for our justification, ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God where he intercedes before God on our behalf.

He is coming back again to judge the living and the dead and all who believe in him will not perish but have everlasting life.

We find ways of sharing that gospel hopefulness, that truth with others so that they too may be believers in Christ and not perish on the day of judgment but live forever with our

God in glory, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We love you, Lord, for the gospel that you have given to us.

Keep us steadfast in it. Always looking forward to that day we will be with our