Q+a Kathmandu — George Verwer

It's so important for you to be able to share openly or ask openly anything that is bothering you about OM, about OM India or OM International, about maybe some of the changes you hear about, some of the areas where we're growing.

So, who has the first question? Anything. Don't feel frightened to ask something that may be negative, because I could throw out so many negative things, and we want to deal with those things while we're here, rather than just go back to India, talking about it, not really clear what the situation is.

Who has the courage to launch the first question? Yes, PM John. Good question. The question is, for those listening to the tape, why we're not working in UNDRA when it's so responsive to many openings.

Why OM Is Not Expanding Into Every Responsive State

We discussed this at the trustees' meetings, and of course, I am one of the strongest ones holding out against moving into new states. It is my deep conviction, I think we have fair unity on this, that we are only scratching the surface in most of the states we're working in.

There are enormous problems if we want to get into in-depth, real follow-up work and really see disciples and ultimately churches. UNDRA is very responsive. That's ten reasons why OM shouldn't go there.

Because the Lord has called us, as a pioneer agency, first to reach the masses, and then to do what other people won't do. There are so many groups working in UNDRA. I've traveled from one end of UNDRA to the other.

I've ministered in a high percentage of all the big buxing assemblies. The ship has visited UNDRA. Of course there's church growth in UNDRA. But on the basis of that thinking, we wouldn't even be in India.

We would be back in other, more responsive areas to India. People say to me, why is OM not working in Korea? So many are responding, we could be so much bigger. I don't have much money there. Why aren't we working in Taiwan?

So many countries. We can't do everything. Another factor is we don't have any more money. We are in debt, which is not glorifying the God, and so again the movement as a whole. We have pulled India out of debt.

Why? Because we scrape all the STL money, a vast sum of money, which everybody in OM would like to get their chunk. We give almost all of it to India. There's a little private arrangement that Jerry Davey and I have, because I brought into being STL, and Jerry Davey was there a few years after that, and we agreed that we didn't want to just spread ourselves too thin, but aim at one area.

Now for a while a lot of STL money went into the ships. But as the ships were so attractive and created so much more giving, we felt we should go back to the original vision that most STL money goes to India.

Financial Limits, Manpower, and Regional Priorities

But we are on the limit of finance. We're also on the limit of manpower. We tried to pull down from 400 to 300. I don't know how well we're doing. Some research is going on actually right now, and Bihar is the first state to submit their facts, exact numbers right now, just as a photograph, where OM is right now.

These paid workers, there's a crisis we're trying to work out of, they have to be included in those numbers. They are all receiving salary. So I don't think we have got down to the 300 mark. We have discovered that everybody in OM has a certain amount of money to keep them going.

Now if more money comes from India, that will certainly help. And after one or two years from now, if we can get some breakthroughs in prayer, finance from India, then we might be able to think about some other states.

In fact we are discovering right now to a large degree we are having to pull back in West Bengal. We have made a strong effort to help Brother John Lee launch a new ministry in West Bengal. The original plan was that he would move out of the town where we have our base.

What's the name of that town? Karakpur. I get it mixed up. Gorakhpur. Karakpur. It starts with a K. But John Lee doesn't feel he should leave. So we are being advised by people in West Bengal that it really is better not to have these two entities in the same town.

So we are moving Northeast India OM to Bhubaneswar. Which means we are going to increase our thrust into Orissa, try to continue in West Bengal, but it's not going to be as big as it was. We can't do everything.

We are so stretched. I'd like to know what other movements in India are committing as much manpower and as much money to the task of reaching India. Maybe you could send me a personal note on that. Because we are really in the OM worldwide esteeming India as absolute top.

Why am I living out here now two and a half months? And we will grow, especially if we can get that unity. We can lay hold of a little more finance. And you can be sure, if some big special gifts come in to OM for India, that can happen at any time.

We are going to let you know. We have been praying for that for the last couple of years. It's not happening. It's not happening. And you know, even some of the foreigners working in India, you always think these internationals, you know, their pockets are just jingling.

Some of them have had difficulty in support. Some have already left. They've already left and are in secular jobs, in operations survival. The West is in economic difficulty. There are some exceptions.

Another very important thing to understand in this is OM is largely a European-based world. There are Americans. We have some good friends in America. Dear old Everett Langlett. People like Everett Langlett, we can count on a few hands, giving regularly, medium-sized sums.

But largely our prayer constituency is in Europe, and many of the Europeans are finding a struggle for their own finance. Now here's another thing that's happened lately. Giving that used to go to general fund ten years ago now seems to go to individuals.

That's fine. We resolve one problem, we create another problem. Have you ever heard of robbing Peter to pay Paul? So Peter, he's broke, and Paul, he's got, you know, more chapattis. And we have discovered that in quite a few countries, there are exceptions.

Germany is an exception. People prefer to support an individual worker. We have also been very generous with our contacts. Money that would go to places like OMUSA now would go to someone else with more publicity, KP100.

This happens. Before God, we have never fought this. We've never got in competition. So many things have been born through OM. And as those things have been born through OM, the money that they have, you know, contacts, friends they had when they were in OM, some would be their own, some would be ours.

As they leave, all the money, most of it goes with them. And of course we have helped many individuals get started on their prayer letter, their personal support. When they leave OM, that personal support goes with them.

So we're dealing with a whole multiple of factors. And that's why we don't have the money and the manpower, and they are linked together, to just open whole new states. Now, we've been very flexible. Teams have gone into some of these places for special efforts.

As you know, you have quite a bit of freedom down there. And we've also, years ago, of course, tried to contain Tamil Nadu. But, you know, things are happening in Tamil Nadu. But we're not ready to start another whole state.

Also, once you start something, it's very hard to stop. Other brothers, the very brothers PM that you send in there, two years later, if they're real Andhra people, they are not going to want to be led from Bangalore, I can assure you.

They will want their own office and their own operation. And the Telugu people are very good people. I love the Telugu people. But, you know, there are many different kinds of Telugu people. But you don't find them at present sending many people outside of Andhra.

Andhra is a very happy little place. Lots of food, lots of churches, lots of growth. No need to go, especially to the north. Even Bakht Singh, I could not persuade to send any Andhra people to the north.

There are a few exceptions, of course. So then, you know, again, I could talk a whole hour on this because we are interested in Andhra. We have published books in Andhra. I've preached all over Andhra.

But you must get into your minds very clearly, and I've seen it here this week, OM India is at breaking point. There are enormous issues that must be dealt with. And we must work out and then see how we go before we can just add more.

You know, all kinds of suggestions. Some have come to me with suggestions. Why don't we close certain states? Why don't we close Kerala? How does that sound? Augustine? You'd probably say, Amen, I'm going north.

You see, it's difficult, isn't it, to know. But this is why we're praying and discussing and want all these suggestions. Another question. Yes. What are you doing here then? Are you just a piece of paper?

Follow-Up Through Training and Leadership Development

You see, this is the follow-up, right here. And the ongoing training all year round. And the fact that all these groups are getting their leaders from Operation Mobilization. Some of them. Where did Ebenezer Sundararaj, this man who leads FMPB, get his, what, ten years or five years?

Five years of training? I think his wife was longer. And you can go right across India. So, you see, it's always these two things. Admittedly, you can blame it on me. I believe in reaching the masses.

And after examining some of the follow-up work going on in India, I thank God we've emphasized reaching the masses as well as, of course, follow-up. Varying from place to place. I still believe in sowing the seed.

And I got a few thousand men of God in heaven who believed it as well. But we believe even more in training. Now, when Brother Chacko, who stands back there, a man of great stature, my wife was telling me how distinguished Chacko looks.

When Chacko joined Operation Mobilization, how old were you? Seventeen. Who was even going to take people into a training movement at seventeen? I was just with A .G. Phillip, a very close friend. He remembers Chacko.

He's so proud about Chacko. Wasn't he involved with your coming? He's feeling very happy about that with many other unhappinesses in Kuwait. So, the key in OM is the training of individuals. And I've been saying this since I arrived in Bombay.

Training of individuals. When those individuals are trained, living in revival, mature, they have discernment, they can follow up. Most follow-up work is better outside of an international hodgepodge.

We can't do everything. We can't plant churches and end up with OM churches in a nation that in 1949 got her independence. Those churches need to be planted by Indians, by Indian fellowships. Now, we can do some pioneering.

When I share tomorrow, or is it this afternoon? Tomorrow, about the Muslim burden we have for follow-up, I think you'll be interested. Another key thing is, is this powerful Christian literature, especially literature for believers, an important part of following up people or not?

I would say that if it wasn't for the Christian literature in India, the state of the church would even be 50 times worse than it is now. We cannot underestimate what God has done through the literature.

Plus, training weekends, conferences, conventions, endless seminars, endless training programs, literally now in the thousands, all of it is follow-up. But, the thing of course that some people don't like, and this is where they criticize us, is that we don't plant churches.

Other people, and I think they're a majority, they are happy with OM because we don't plant churches. And OM has one foot very squarely in the traditional church. In Pakistan, our work, even more than India, is linked with a traditional church, the Church of Pakistan.

God is working in that church. I've met with many of the bishops. They're born-again men. They want to reach Muslims. We have tremendous credibility, and we can build on that foundation in Pakistan. Over here, we have had that at times, and we've not had it at times.

The tremendous influence indirectly from Bakhshin movements, from other independent movements, fellowship movements, have, within OM, among the recruits, and some of you, pushed OM further into the assemblies, Pentecostal, brethren, non-traditional church area.

Now, there are some beautiful exceptions, and we still have, you know, some credibility with some of these established churches. Now, we know with the established church, sometimes it's just impossible.

The unbelievers, the politics. So that's why we're not making any simple blanket theory, and each state has quite a bit of freedom to develop their work. One way or the other, we hopefully, to some degree, both.

So I feel a lot of follow-up work is done. I feel that 80 of the real work in India is follow-up. It's long-term training of men of God, preparing them for a life ministry, but not telling them what that life ministry has to be.

They must find that before God. And we, especially with our international flavor, we must beware, especially as we have some money, we must beware of playing the Holy Spirit. And praise the Lord for these brothers, so many who are now in follow-up work.

Of course, they've all discovered it's harder than they thought when they're on OM. I believe in the next two years, working together, we will increase our effectiveness in training people for church planting.

Now, we launched this program with Brother SS. No, no. Sabu. I can never pronounce that name. Subodh Sahu. And maybe we should have a report back on that. There's so many things we could have a report back on.

But am I not correct? We had a small church planting training team with him. Again, we get going in so many directions. And I think we need to be able to very lovingly explain to people. Because people who know OM, they don't believe we're just running around giving out literature.

Do you think Tony Sargent has come back here for his third or fourth trip because he thinks it's some kind of superficial literature operation? But I think we need to be able to answer some of these questions.

We need to really be able to show that follow-up isn't just one thing. Follow-up is many things. And lastly, I feel until we get more men of maturity and integrity who are free from legalism and know really what it is to walk with God, that a lot of this talk about follow-up in churches, it's just going to create more dead, carnal churches.

And my plea is for quality and reality. And Tozer said we can't reproduce anything better than what we are ourselves. And if we're not men of quality and honesty and integrity who can stand firm when criticism comes and backbiting and all the hellish, fiery darts of Satan, then a lot of this, it's just talk.

It's just talk. Of course, we know going into a tribal area where the people are already responsive, almost anybody can do that. But two years later also, you also have an awful lot of problems and divisions.

Because actually tribal work, though it looks easy, is very complicated. Especially for non-tribal people. Now this has been beautiful that NOM summoned people of tribal background and you should never be ashamed of that.

My wife is so proud that she's got tribal background. She's got Seminole Indian blood somewhere microscopically in her veins. Proud of that. But, you know, we have to face the reality that one of the best things we have done is we have trained a lot of people in OM who are now working among their tribes.

Gopal Hembran, Sentali. Better him to go back to the Sentalis than six more new recruits from Kothiam who believe God has called them to tribal work because they raised their hand in a big meeting in South India and said, God has called me to be a missionary and my grandmother prophesied over me that I would be a missionary.

The Customs Case and OM's Early Work in India

Who has the next question? Linda and then somebody else had their hand up over here. You tell them in a nutshell that one of my close associates and I had a run in with Bombay Customs because in the early days of OM we believed that we had a quota of goods that we could bring into the country.

So we brought our quota. It was fully declared. It was the quota system. Then we made the mistake, the most fatal mistake in my whole Christian career. We sold our possessions to put money into the work of God.

I remember Oscar Brown in the court in Bombay speaking out. He was one of the most great lawyers of integrity and churchman in Bombay. He's died recently. Speaking out about these young men with a noble cause under pressure sold their possessions in order to live.

And the judge, you know, he was just amazed. And the judge warned us there was no sentence. He warned, I pled guilty. I had to plead guilty to the technicality of the law. But the technicality of the law as far as customs is exactly the same as being a smuggler, technically.

We had broke a technicality of law like 99 probably of the people who cross customs at least more than a few times. So we pled guilty. The judge, with a big smile I think, he warned us that really we shouldn't do this.

Now this could have all been stopped because the customs wanted a bribe. Bribe! I almost punched him. And so we would not pay a bribe. Both men in customs in Bombay at that time were later removed for corruption.

But, you know, it was too late. Our names, Mike Wiltshire and I were the two leading men. He was the one that was there. And my wife was in the flat. Let me give you a little background on that. Somebody was very bitter against Mike.

They wanted some money. I think because he had used his picture, their picture in a booklet, and he thought, if my picture's in a booklet, I should get money. Well, Mike, he told this guy, get lost. There was another British OMer who backslid into homosexuality and embezzlement.

I've never figured out which one of these two went to customs and said that we were smugglers. One of the two went. And they had a full-scale raid on Mike Wiltshire's flat. You know, they thought this was a major smuggling operation.

And unfortunately, all the OMers, foreigners who had gone through Bombay, had left their possessions in that flat. It was only so much each person. But there were 25 people or more. And it was, you know, razor blades, cassette recorders, and, of course, when the customs hit, I mean, you can imagine.

So that's the story. And Mike, of course, was arrested. I was in Andhra preaching, of course, when I got the phone call back to Bombay. I was not arrested. Then Keith Beckwith died in a motor crash. I wanted to leave to go to the funeral.

Only when I decided to leave to go to the funeral, they arrested me. So then I got enmeshed in it. So this all took a lot of time. It's a beautiful lesson in my spiritual experience. And meanwhile, our names were submitted to the police as persona non grata.

People that we'd rather not have in India, which they do to smugglers. Now here's the interesting thing. We don't actually know if that is the reason. As far as I can understand, that is the reason. But they will not tell you in Delhi the full reasons.

There were other complaints, supposedly, about me. I heard, for instance, the Communist Party in Kerala complained about me. I was pretty strong in some of my early ministry in Kerala. I heard also that my name was listed in other ways as an international director of a multinational propaganda organization.

It gets very confusing once they start pulling in information. But as far as I can see, that is the basic issue. We believe that we could get my name cleared, but because OM has had so much freedom, because we have tried a couple of times, people are always promising me they can do this, it's not easy.

And I don't want to stir up difficulties in Delhi because we never dreamed that we'd have all this freedom for 20 years. They don't bother foreigners coming and going, British people staying in the country.

Let me explain that. The British people come in on OM as non-missionaries. They're trainees, they're helpers, they're learners, they're people. Different British people classify themselves in different ways.

But they cannot be technically, here we go, technically, classified as missionaries. If they are technically missionaries, they must register, because that's another law. Missionaries must register. We produced a paper showing that OMers from the Commonwealth are not missionaries.

They don't baptize, they don't do these four or five things that makes a person a missionary. But this eventually could go and be a court case. When something is hard to define, some say this, some say you're a missionary, we're facing this problem right now in BR, some say you're not a missionary, where does it get settled?

You know, it goes to court. Now we don't particularly want to go to court on this issue, but maybe someday we will. Maybe we'll win the case that Mike Weed is definitely not a missionary. He doesn't baptize people, he doesn't look like a missionary, he's involved in literature work, he's involved in other things, and of course, it's a gray area.

Transparency, Mistakes, and Organizational Accountability

Well, we're getting a lot of information these days. Don't be afraid to ask me any question. If you don't want to do it publicly, you can ask it privately. You can ask anything. We have nothing to hide.

You can ask about the mystery fights between Bangkok and Kathmandu. You can ask the Khyber Pass operation with Peter Kahneman. You know, you think for 20 years we've been sitting around? We made mistakes.

And we rectified them. And I praise God that as far as I can see, you know, O .M. doesn't have any skeletons in the closet. We have nothing to hide. And this idea that Christians are perfect, they don't make any mistake, they never tell any lies, they never treat anybody wrongly, they're totally consistent, always loving, always abounding, perfect husbands, perfect lives.

Bah! Who has a question? Another question. You know, one of the things that I think might help me someday to get clear of New Delhi is that I learned from that lesson. And I've never had any difficulty with any government or any custom, any of that kind of thing, since that experience.

So my record all over the world, I now can become a British citizen if I want, is completely clear. My family record is clear. I don't blame you if someday you get some doubts about O .M. or about George Verwer.

I get doubts about myself. So, you know, but if you want more evidence or anybody who's backbiting us or gossiping, want evidence, we've had the same board of directors, many of them outstanding, one of them an outstanding British lawyer.

They're men from different churches, different backgrounds. They're not in O .M. They don't get any money from O .M. I've been subject to these same men for over 20 years. And I tell you, they're not going to let any fooling around.

And the same men in New Jersey, some of them have been on the board of my friends for 27 years. You know, one of the board members in New Jersey has just been elected as mayor of the town. These are honest men.

One of the other board members is a leader in this state. He's actually a top man in state government, a man of outstanding Christian ethics. These board members outside of O .M. have a very high reputation and they are watching us and we cannot get away with things.

Little things, of course, you can get away with. Even then, sometimes they find out. When I arrive back in Britain, I have to meet with the board and I have to give a report and share with them. So I think that may help you and maybe someday I'm allowed even to go back into Russia.

The only other country I had trouble with, government, was Russia. That was before India. And that was definitely for, this is why you can see the other thing gets a little confusing, that was also for smuggling.

Smuggling Bibles. Some of you know Brother Andrew, God smuggler. Here's your leader, Brother George, God's bungler. I blew it and got arrested by the secret police, but I am now allowed back in Russia.

I've just been ministering in Russia and when I left the country, I thought maybe they had my name. They really took everything off me and gave me a very thorough check. My son and I, this was a family trip, question.

Responding to Criticism and Practicing Repentance

Fifteen minutes to tea time. First of all, dealing with criticism is the question. Because of seemingly the reputation I have now as being accepted as a quote, Christian leader, man of God, and some things even more high sounding, a lot of people, generally speaking, are afraid to be honest with me.

That is a great problem. And so they will gossip against OM, they will speak against OM, and if they have the opportunity for me to sit down and have a cup of tea with them, they will be absolutely friendly.

I don't hold that against people. People are human. People are weak. Some have the courage to write, and when they do, it's not usually about me personally. It's usually about the work, it's about breaking the Sabbath, selling books on Sunday, it's about, we had recently, books on the ship that they thought taught evolution, things like that.

Selling the RSV Bible, number of letters on that lately. And of course, I try to just bring it into balance. Sometimes I can even agree with them. I say, look, personally, I agree with that and we're moving that way.

You know, there are 1 ,700 people, we are, you know, the enemy is trying to attack us, and I would ask you, even though you don't agree with us on this point, can you pray with us? If it's personal contact, and I sense the doors open, I try to turn around and say, you know, do you have any struggles in your life?

You know, is your movement perfect? Maybe I can learn something from what you're doing. Often people can criticize, but have no constructive answers. They're, oh, I don't like this, why do you do that?

Well, you know, what do you think we should do? And when they give that answer, usually there's several other factors. Number one, we may have already tried it, we may already be doing it. Actually, there may not even be any disunity.

Another important thing is that OM has a degree of freedom in each country to develop its strategy for that country. Praise God that we don't have to get cleared most of what we want to decide here with some board sitting back in New Jersey, you've never been to India, don't know any of you.

I heard of one group in India, they couldn't sell a bicycle rickshaw without the approval of a board in England. And they only met every second month and so that bicycle rickshaw sat and rusted because it needed a board decision.

Personally, of course, greater criticism will come from people who are in the work who feel free to come to you and eventually let you have it. Praise the Lord for that privilege. I've had that, and sometimes those people have been right, and I've just repented, sometimes in tears, I've had to repent of some things in front of the whole coordinator's conference, weeping, things where I had sinned, usually with my tongue, and usually just coming across too strongly where an individual got hurt because sometimes it's hard to separate the policy from the individual.

I was really more concerned about the policy, but it got mixed up and I came down too hard on an individual. He was hurt, of course, and he immediately is talking to everybody else. That's the amazing thing, even within OM, when you hurt an individual, they seldom come to you.

So I've had to learn to live with that. They're going to go to Roton, they're going to go to Biley, they're going to go to Maiden, George Burroughs hurt me, why did he say this? They will then come to me and I will repent and then try to resurrect the fellowship.

This is why a movement like OM has to go slower, because we believe in fellowship, we believe in love, we believe in ironing out every break of fellowship. It takes time. It takes time. First Corinthians 13 must always be the road ahead.

Someone else, anything, there was somebody in this section here who had their hand up. We've been doing it. So as far as I know, there is the freedom, but it must be done very wisely and very carefully and the trustees need to know what's happening.

Reaching Unreached Muslims Rather Than Following Only Response

You see, one of the problems, I see this with a number of groups, to go to the road where the response is. This is heavy teaching from Church Grove, from Donald McGovern. You know what they told us in Bangladesh?

Donald McGovern, stop the work among Muslims. It may upset the government. Work among tribals, work among Hindus. So that's what a lot of the people in Bangladesh, yet 85 of the people are Muslim. Now, McGovern even writes me personally.

We're good friends. He says, OM India should work among tribals. You know, even though he's a brilliant man, don't think he understands all the problems, because internationals and foreigners working among tribals in India today has a lot of ramifications.

Just study the Northeast India problem. So, we are interested in tribals. We do believe in going to some degree where response is, and a vast percentage of OM graduates are working among the response.

Many of the brothers from Kerala who have been trained in OM, where are they today? They're in Kerala, because Kerala is responsive. If you can't see people coming to Christ in Kerala, you can't see them coming to Christ anywhere.

Some of them, of course, come to Christ annually. But I believe that OM must not lose its goal. We're all talking about goals. OM has goals. We came to India to reach unreached people, especially the Muslims.

That's why we came here. We also came to reach the masses and to mobilize Indian believers, see them trained and turned upside down. They were the three-pronged push. Reaching the masses, we've done very well.

Training Indians, we've won some, lost some. Great encouragement. Reaching Muslims, first stage, yes. Literature, preaching, praise the Lord for that. Don't belittle previous works, build on it. But now I think the time has come to get back to this original vision of trying, especially since we know so much more, of trying to do a pioneer work among Muslims.

And one of the big reasons is hardly anyone else is willing to do that. And I believe now God has given OM a degree of expertise and understanding and to some degree, some men are ready to move into that.

So you're going to find me, a number of us, not wanting to take on too many other things, you know, this is one of the criticisms foreigners have about OM India. Many foreigners feel they come here, they're just truck drivers, they're waterboys.

And, you know, general encouragers. It's a miracle we get people to come back a second time. But if we're going to get some thinking, committed foreigners, and by the way, a foreigner working among Muslims, Muslims say in North India, might have just as much possibility as a breakthrough as someone from South India doing it, or someone from the North, but a totally different people's group.

Hindu, sweeper caste background, trying to win a well-educated Muslim to Jesus Christ. We've got to face the reality of that. So I believe there is a place for a small number of foreigners who will master the language and help penetrate this huge group of people, the Muslims.

And there's room for Indians, of course. I noticed even with Brother Shamshad that he's being sort of challenged to be the sort of acting state leader in the absence of Marcos, you see. And he's getting well enmeshed into the OM jungle of administration and looking after the team and all these things.

But you know, if we wanted to have a real pioneer effort among Muslims, and Brother Shamshad was interested in that, one of the first things we have to do is try to separate him to a large degree from all the rest of this OM paraphernalia.

Because as long as he's got all that paraphernalia, all the gospel packets and big campaigns and all this, he's going to have difficulty penetrating the Muslim people in the way that we would like to see it done.

And as is happening in Bangladesh. Now at the same time, Shamshad, I'm sure, is happy to get all these other experiences. And maybe in the future, if there's agreement, the Lord will lead him into that kind of thing.

OM's Spiritual Basics: Forgiveness, Prayer, and Love

All these things are being talked about. And I think it's good for foreigners to come their first two years, same as Indians, get the basics, relationships, love. You see, the basics, please understand this.

The basics of OM are not book distribution, gospel pack distribution, truck driving. They're all helpful. The basics are, do you know how to forgive people? I want to ask you, my dear brother, if you don't know how to forgive people, you never have had OM basic.

Because without that, you're going to be an ill man. And OM is not going to go anywhere. So learning forgiveness, learning how to pray, learning how to stand against the fiery darts of the enemy, learning how to love your brother, though he may be from a totally different background, though he may not like you, I find even in OM.

If a brother doesn't like him, then he doesn't like that. This is spiritual kindergarten. When I find somebody doesn't like me, I turn on the valve. Peter Conlon came into me. Boy, I'll never forget it.

When he first joined OM, I was really upset. You're not loving all this talk about love. You're not loving. You're right. This is the greatest need in my life. I knelt on the floor and asked him if he would pray that God would fill me with greater Calvary love.

He just almost collapsed. I remember a pastor in Mexico. This was when I was really hyper. I mean, some of you think I'm hyper. You should have seen me when I first went to Mexico. And, you know, I went into this pastor, and I rebuked him in the name of the Lord because he was not storing the literature properly.

Really, we had given this man a lot of tracts. And I was trying to get so many million tracts out in a short period of time. And this got me more hyper. I was studying at the university. I was engaged, and everything was going wrong with that thing.

I was preaching every night in Spanish that most people couldn't understand except the Pentecostals. And many, many other problems. And we gave this man a lot of literature. And when I went back months later, we got married, went back to Mexico, and I rebuked him in the name of the Lord.

And he let go at me. You Americans, you think you come down here with your superiority. You think you're going to tell us. Boom, boom, boom. God just broke me. And I just knelt on the floor. And I asked that pastor, please forgive me.