Cassian's Recap: UNDERSTANDING DIVINE HIDDENNESS + Dr. Josh Waltman

Hello, hello. Welcome to Biblically Speaking. My name is Cassie Mbellino, and I'm your host. You might be thinking, this isn't a podcast episode interviewing a scholar. No, it's not. It's just me. It's just me talking about what this week's episode was about.

So if you haven't listened to it, go back. It released on Tuesday. It's now Friday, and you're listening to a recap. This is where I talk about the episode. What does Cassie think about it? Because sometimes these interviews with these scholars are pretty high level, and we still miss it.

We still don't fully understand it. I definitely feel that way, and I'm the one interviewing the scholars. Sometimes we have the conversation. I'm like, what just happened? There was so much wisdom in it.

Divine Hiddenness and Why God Feels Absent

If you listened to the episode on Tuesday, it was about divine hiddenness, which is essentially the argument that God wants us to know him. Why don't I see him? Why can't I see God in a pillar of cloud and pillar of fire the same way the Israelites did when they left Egypt?

Why don't I see my burning bush all the time? Why don't I get to talk to God in my living room? It feels like I have to cry out to him. It feels like almost he's not even there, where if I was an atheist, I'd say maybe he isn't real.

Well, he is real, and there's a reason why he's hidden, and we discussed that in the episode. But today, I'm going to break it down to you in, I think, like 20 minutes. That's the goal. So let's get into it.

Dr. Waltman's Experience of God and the Question of Hiddenness

So it started with Dr. Waltman on a pretty deep level, because this is how he even got into the topic of divine hiddenness. The reason that we spoke about divine hiddenness was because this is his, quote, bread and butter.

This is what he's good at. And the reason he's good at it is because he experienced God intimately as a child. I'll show this closer. He experienced God intimately. This caused him to question everything.

So he had an encounter with the Holy Spirit. He didn't really go into it with detail. So once he had this moment with the Holy Spirit, he shared it with others, and he was saying, oh my gosh, I just had this experience, and they couldn't relate to him.

They honestly could not relate. And so he started wondering, why is he revealing himself in some ways to people, but not so much to others? And how can we feel about a God that does that? How can we feel about a God that doesn't make himself known, it seems like?

Human Effort, Free Will, and the Call to Choose God

So I lead with a question within the interview basically saying, does chasing God, is that it? Is that the kicker that turns God, quote unquote, on to show up? Like, were you postulating yourself as a child before God that he was like, ah, you earned it, here I am.

I'll do the big reveal. Must we make the first move, as I put it, in order for him to deem us worthy of his revealing? And Dr. Bowman says, yikes, no. He says, I don't think that we're doing any postulating ever.

If we are being honest with ourselves as a human race, nothing we do is going to earn anything from God. We do below the bare minimum as humans. We are fallen people. So if we're going to do anything in our lives that is worth God revealing himself to us, it's going to come from the Holy Spirit.

It's going to come from God working in us, which is so humbling to hear. But get ready for more of that, because this entire conversation is just so humbling. That being said, all the work to come from God, God wants us to choose him.

He wants us to face him. He doesn't want to do all the work. He wants us to make the choice. We have the free will. And this is where our choice comes into play by turning to him and asking, we're ready.

Come into my life. Do the work I want you to. So all that to be said, why is God so hidden? And this is a very real experience for us as Christians. We feel this. We give our lives to him, but it's not like he lives in our heads.

It's not like he appears in our bedrooms. It's not like we get to chat up God whenever we want, just because we say that we're a Christian. So it's a very normal experience. I think we can all acknowledge that we all go through valleys.

We all go through periods of silence, and it's not a modern problem. Dr. Waltman points out, if we look at the Psalms, Psalms 45, 18, if we look at all of them, these were cries of lament, cries out to God, where are you?

Are you sleeping? Wake up. So this was happening. This has been happening. It's not just us. Despite people experience pillars of fires and burning bushes, people still went through periods where God was silent.

So as a whole, we can say this is normal for those who follow Christ. And if I were an atheist, if I'm being honest, this would be a huge reason for me to not follow God. But on the flip side, if God were to reveal himself to me, if I'm being fully honest with myself, would I take it seriously?

Amazing things happen to us every single day, and yet here I am still asking, where is God? So even if God were to reveal himself to me, would that be enough to the human mind? Would that be enough to me as a human, or would I still justify it?

Would I still attribute it to something else? Would I still find another reason to say, well, that wasn't God. I need a little bit more. Human nature is short term at best. It's doubting at a minimum.

And if we look at the Israelites during the Exodus, the people that literally experienced God as a pillar of fire, following them out of Egypt through the parted sea, they still turned around a few days later and worshiped a golden calf.

We're them. There's literally no difference between us and them. If anything, we're worse. So for me to ask this question and say, God, where are you? He's like, right here. I'm like, I don't know. That was the wind.

I mean, we have to be honest with ourselves. So all that to be said, Dr. Walton kind of brings this topic home by saying God is being very intentional. God is being very intentional here by being hidden.

He's not appealing to us through logic, with proof and evidence like the human mind is asking for. He's actually coming to us through faith and spirituality, which is how he revealed himself through Jesus.

And now there is hiddenness. Are you lost yet? Don't worry. We're going to explain this. Connecting to us through the Holy spirit is basically helping me feel convicted of my sin. So I come to Jesus willingly.

Not because I have to not because, Oh, well there's proof. So it doesn't really matter how I feel. I can't argue with proof. Nope. Because my sin, because of the Holy spirit working through me, I want to, I yearn for it.

I ask for it. And that's what God wants. He wants us to want him to choose him kind of like in the beginning. When I come to Jesus in that way, it's basically turning my heart of stone into a heart of softness.

Then this is going to change us from the inside out, rather than appease the flesh and just appear in person with logic and proof. So this is like the reason why we needed a new Testament. It was a new covenant because the early believers, they didn't want to keep the covenant.

Their heart wasn't in it. So the new Testament was basically taking that heart of stone of the Israelites into a heart of flesh that it reacts and it beats. The law was written on their hearts and they chose to follow Jesus because they loved him.

That's why today we choose to give our life to him. We don't have to because that's what makes sense. So this is the point of hiddenness. We don't get him to appear before us. We get a heart that yearns for him so that when he comes back, we know his presence and we stand with him.

He is directly addressing the spiritual issues that keep us from responding to him through his hiddenness. All this to say, Dr. Waltman shares a story. Basically when his friend was severely grieving from losing his brother.

And in those moments of grieving, that man felt that God was showing him, this is what separation for me feels like. This is death and this is not how it's meant to be. It's a process. We have to endure this to appreciate his presence when we are reunited with him and we can appreciate that connection that we have with him.

God's Presence, Judgment, and the Danger of Seeing Him Fully

Okay, so moving to the flip side, I think that this will help us really drive this point home is the presence of God. The theologians state when we look at verses in Exodus with Moses and Genesis, it's dangerous for us to be in his presence.

Moses was in his presence and he requests to see the face of God. And God says he can't because that's going to kill you, Moses. So why don't you just like, let me pass over you and you can see the aftermath of my glory.

Because if you see me in full form, you're going to die. So for a sinner, it's deadly for us to experience God in his fullest form. Jesus is our new access to experience God without dying. Okay, so if that's the case, then God is actually, he's actually being the good guy here by keeping himself hidden.

He's actually doing us a huge favor by hiding his presence from us on earth so that we don't die. And why would we die? Because of judgment. We are sinners. There is no good person on earth. I don't care what you say.

Jesus was the only one. So if we are all sinners and God will come and judge the sinner and if he's going to do that when he's in our presence, it's best that he might stay away until the day of judgment or else we're going to be judged.

We're going to die. We are sinners. All right. There is no other fate for us. It is through the grace of God that we get to heaven. So by withholding his presence, withholding his judgment, he's going to give us time right now to turn toward him and repent.

So I was going into this conversation basically being like, okay, God, like if you want me to know you, let me see you. And I think that Dr. Waltman in this conversation does a really good job of being like, well, God wants you to know him.

That's why he's kind of keeping himself separate from you. That's why he's putting you through this. Okay. So this is why God's putting us through this. Like, I want to say like a cleansing process. Like this is a reprioritization process of knowing what it's like to not have God.

So like we can crave him, we can know him, and we can recognize that God doesn't play by our rules. Like you don't want to see me. You'll die. Like you don't know what you're asking for here. Okay. So are we saying that if you're craving God's presence, you're kind of SOL, too bad, so sad.

You're not going to get it because that's not the way God works. If he comes in your presence, you're going to die. Sorry, dude. You're going to be here to yearn for him not to get proof. Well, like can't the creator of the universe make an exception for that lone atheist that is just really craving him?

Can't God say, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cass needs the separation, but John over here, he needs the closeness. Like, can't God overcome this? Can't he even coerce us into saying like, despite you showing yourself to me, I know I still want you.

Like, can't he create a both and? So if he's not willing to do that, doesn't it feel like a little abandoning? Doesn't it feel like God is just kind of like, too bad, so sad. You're going to have to deal with it.

Despite your needs as a human, I'm not going to meet them because these are the rules. It kind of feels like abandonment. Like, I think we can agree on that. Let's just address it because there's a solution.

Okay. I'm not here to bash God. All right. Whatever corner you think you're putting me and Dr. Waltman in at the end of the day, God wins. God always wins. But with that logic, let's go with that. It kind of feels like abandonment, especially for an all loving God.

Can we see him as all loving if we feel abandoned? Like that just doesn't add up. Um, and he has this great example, essentially saying it's like a child is in the forest. Okay. And that child is yearning for a parent and a parent is basically looking on and like refusing to save their child.

That's how it feels like with God, that we are that child calling out to God and saying, God, I want you. And the parent is refusing to reach out and God is refusing to reveal himself. Well, if that is the argument that we're making, it's an, and we've been, we're an atheist that's saying like, listen, I'm yearning for you, God.

If you revealed yourself to me, if you just gave me that proof, then I have no choice. I will come in. Like if that's the atheist argument here of like, God, just reveal yourself to me. Then, then I'm all in.

Right. Right. I mean, who else can identify with that? I feel like at some points I did like before I was like a diehard Christian, like God, if you just like showed up or like, if you just like move my cup a little bit, I'm in, I'm in, that's all I need.

Bias, Moral Transformation, and Why Evidence Alone Does Not Convince

Dr. Wellman says, no, that's not what would happen. That's not what would happen because there is no person who is objectively yearning for God who is just saying, I am completely neutral on the position of God until he proves it.

And then I will be convinced that just doesn't exist because there's this thing called bias and heart posture and disposition. And we need to be honest about what our disposition is the same way that I have a bias to look for God, to confirm God, to believe in God.

There is an atheist with a bias to not believe, which is why they don't believe they have a bias to show that God's not there. Therefore, objectivity on the issue of, if you only showed me, I would be completely in.

It's not possible. It's not possible. That person's that saying, Oh, if only God, you know, showed himself up, then I would totally believe. Well, you would be believing if you had that disposition to believe, but you don't, which is why even if God showed up, which he has, when he did show up for you, you had the disposition not to believe, not to see it because it's not like God has never shown up for you.

It's not like you're waiting on your one moment with God. So the big question, Dr. Wellman poses is if someone who says, yeah, I'll believe in God, just show me the evidence. Dr. Wellman's question to them is all right.

If I show you the evidence, if God does show up to that atheist that says, all I want is him to move this cup. All I want is to hear his voice. If God were to do that, would that atheist be willing to submit your whole life to your creator?

Would they be willing to turn from their sin? Would you be willing to recognize that supernatural reality of a creator God who made everything that actually exists? And this is the kicker. Are you willing to be morally transformed?

Are you willing to turn your back on sin and follow whatever he says in worship? Because in order to be truly objective, truly open, truly disposed to being convinced if God exists, then he has a right to call us to worship him and fully submit.

You don't just get to believe you have to change your ways. And if you're not disposed and open to that, why would you be willing to all of a sudden, just because you saw something? This is a full transformation.

It's not just belief. It's transformative. So if you're not willing to respond in that way, then you have a bias. You don't necessarily want God because if he does exist, you're going to have to change.

Are you willing to change? And that's like a fundamental change. That's not like I just start going to church all of a sudden. It's, I no longer want things. And I'm going to actively love that. I don't want them not just endure that.

Oh, heavy stuff. Maybe you're listening to this podcast because you're like, yeah, I'm on team cast. I love Jesus. It doesn't matter where you are right now. It doesn't matter if you're a diehard Christian.

It doesn't matter if you are brand new to the faith Romans one, Dr. Waltman points out is a great, does a great job of including everyone in the suppression of God that every one of us blocks him out.

Every one of us blocks him out. And what do we do? We fill ourselves with idols. We suppress God. We separate ourselves from God with the idols and the pursuits and the choices that we make. Romans one is talking about this.

Nothing has changed. Talk about a living word. I spend so much time on social media. It's scary. Okay. I spent so much time at the gym comparatively, not as much time at church, not as much time in the word, like as somebody that has a Christian channel, I still fall short.

So all of us, all of us are separated from God. All of us are not choosing God. All of us have a disposition to be separated from God. Of course, God has to be hidden. We need to yearn for him. If we had God, as much as we had social media, as much as we had all of these other things that make us feel validated, we wouldn't appreciate him.

That's the whole point. Think of Adam and Eve. They hid themselves from God after sinning. If you can't see the current evidence of what God has already provided for you in this current presence, Adam and Eve were in his presence.

They saw God and they sinned, and then they hid themselves from God. God didn't hide himself from them. They sinned and then hid themselves from God in their sin. And God didn't even hide himself. So for us, if we experience a world of birds and nature and love and forgiveness and structures that support us and food that nourish us, adding more, and if all of that doesn't convince us of God's presence, of God's divine presence on earth, suddenly adding a bit more evidence isn't going to really change your perspective if you're already disposed to not already seeing God in your life.

So adding more won't suddenly change that openness if it hasn't already. A note that Dr. Waltman then adds is an openness to experiencing God. Because maybe you are an atheist. You're like, okay, if I'm not disposed to wanting to experience God, what if I suddenly am?

Let's say, hypothetically, I suddenly am saying, if God did reveal himself, I am disposed to fully submit, to fully give myself to God. I am willing to do that. There is a note that you need to take into account.

And this is that in this realm of being open to the spiritual good, you will be open to the spiritual bad. Because this realm that believes in God has fallen angels, has demonic entities. And that is like the argument that I make to anybody that's like, oh yeah, I don't know if there's a God.

It's like, oh, there is. And there's definitely a demon too. So if you're not praying against the unseen realm with the armor of God, you're in a battlefield without armor. You don't have any protection.

When it comes to issues like New Age, and people that have the intention of truly healing themselves and doing what's best for their spirituality by just seeking God without the Lord Almighty's protection, you are inviting any type of spirit into your life.

And Satan is a masquerade of light. He masquerades as light. He masquerades as something good that you bring in, but you don't have protection against it. And we need discernment as followers of Christ that show us what is of God and what is not.

So when you are in that process of opening yourself up to the Lord, know that there are things that you could be opening yourself up to that are out to harm you. That's basically the point here. So what do we do?

Seeking God Through the Gospel, the Resurrection, and Communion with the Lord

Maybe you're like, oh dang, I have been running from God. I don't even want to see it. I want proof of God. But even if I saw it, I actually wouldn't because I loved my sin. I was there. I loved my sin.

I loved it so much. But what do we do? Because maybe you're like me and it's like, listen, I would love to experience God. I would love to love God. But when I opened the Bible, it's just not hitting.

It's just not hitting. So what do I do? And Dr. Waltman is so smart. He's like, there's not a one size fits all for the solution. But if you are atheist and you want to change and be open to this and truly be transformed by the word of God, look at the truth of the gospel.

Look at the resurrection, which gives credibility for the rest of the Bible and uncover what your intellectual hangup is. Okay. What is it? What is holding you back? You should look into that. You should ask questions, figure out and get answers.

This is a God. He's got answers. Like that's kind of the whole point is he can answer this. You're not supposed to be like, yeah, that is untouchable. We won't know that one. Like God wants you to know him asking will be given generously without fault.

This is your life. This is your soul. As an atheist, this is okay. For the atheist, like I just want to kind of lean in that this is your life. This is your soul. And if the truth of the gospel is even remotely possible, it is worth your time exploring.

If you find it to be true, this would unlock the entirety of your life. For the Christian, this is worth your time. And I hate the argument of like, well, if it's wrong and it's not true, then whatever, at least he died trying, but it's, it is true.

So like your life is so good right now. I'm sure. Can it be better? And it's worth it. It truly is worth it. And for the Christians, for the Christians, the suggestion is to pursue a communion with the Lord.

For the atheist, it's to discover. And for the Christians, it's to inundate yourself with the Lord, not just in the things that you're supposed to do, like opening the Bible, but to know God, know his desires and work at every choice you make to please God in those desires.

Find the ways that God shows up for you in every single moment to know the Lord and do what he loves. And the thing is, is like, ah, I guess I'll be reluctant to not go out because that's what God wants me to do.

And as a Christian, I'm trying to know that I used to do that. Oh my gosh, I used to do that. And then I like inundated myself with like knowing the Lord and being in communion with him. And I'm like, oh, going out sucks.

I do not want to go out. And it's not that I didn't even like, oh, I couldn't do it because I'm a Christian. I didn't want to do it because I'm a Christian. Like God changes your heart. And, um, I'm thankful that he's hidden, which is such a weird sentence because I want him, but in his hiddenness, I want him more than I would.

If I had him standing in my living room every day, you know, I got my, I got my Jesus model. Now that I became a Christian last Sunday, like, that's just not how it works. And in that we grow closer to him or our heart turns to softness and we yearn for him.

A New Mind, a New Way of Thinking, and the Invitation to Join the Community

Gosh, was this a heavy episode? I went into it thinking, Hey, Dr. Waltman, where's God, what's the solution? And he said, you don't actually want what you're saying. And he turned it around on me and he flipped it.

I wanted a solution. And he said, God's doing something entirely different. And I think that as I go deeper into these conversations, I'm truly learning that being a Christian requires you to literally break the mind that you have and build a new one.

When you think about how the, how God works and how the Bible works, it doesn't work in the ways of the world. We have these retribution principles and, you know, cause and effect, and this is what's fair.

And that's just not how God works. And when we step out of our expectations as a human, like, of course, if we stay in this mentality of like, well, God didn't work the way that I think he should work.

So this doesn't make sense. Yeah, of course. But when I step outside of what I think it should be like and say, well, what does God want it to be like? It suddenly awakens. It suddenly is like, Oh yeah, God doesn't work the way I work.

I need to think the way he thinks. And when I consider it from that perspective, it makes way more sense. So this was an incredible episode. If you want to listen to it, it's available on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, uh, based on my RSS feed, it's everywhere actually.

So biblically speaking is the podcast. You're already listening to it. You're already listening to this wherever. So it's, uh, live also in this place, but this is just me talking. This is biblically speaking, biblically hurt is the next level.

It's a free community where you get to talk with other believers. We can actually message each other. We can actually get on a zoom. We get on weekly Bible studies, but every single month, a scholar comes in and you can jump on a zoom with them.

And maybe you have questions about divine hiddenness that I didn't ask. So that would be your chance. Um, we also have Bible studies. Every single episode has a Bible study to go with it, to take this application one level deeper, to download that Bible study and take it to your small group or take it to your dinner table with your family.

Um, I just want to shout out all the women that follow me that are leading their families in Christ. They are in communion with the Lord and they're also being a leader for Christ in their family. Um, and whether or not, you know, I believe that like the man, the husband is the head of the house and should be leaving, leading the family in Christ.

But I, I grew up in a family where like, it was the mother and it didn't just solely rely on my father to lead us in Christ. Um, so I just want to say thank you. I mean, thank you for listening and thank you for joining.

Thank you for getting involved. This is the most important work that I have ever done in my entire life. And I have taken plastic out of the ocean. This is the best thing I've ever done with my life. It was the most important and the most fulfilling.

And so I just want to say thank you for listening. Um, and joining me because I don't know if you know my story, but I thought nobody would listen and all I'm here at, obviously there's more, obviously there's more people that want to listen and want to know God intimately and fall in love with him.

So how cool is it that we get to do that together? How cool is it that God wants us to do it, to yearn for him in a heart of softness? Am I going to cry? No, I'm not. Anyways, thank you so much for listening.

Uh, God bless you.