#72 Orthodox Scripture, Communion, and Confession + Fr. Michael Butler

Why don't I do confession? Do they approach communion differently? In the Protestant world, each man does as he sees fit.

So you interpret the script, you pick up the book, you read it, and you decide for yourself what it means. I don't do that.

Doesn't that take a lot of time, though? I can't move on until I do so much back reading and back studying.

Is that what the expectation is here? No. Isn't that daunting? This is impossible. The reason we need to understand the scriptures correctly is because if we don't, we lead people astray.

What is the Orthodox view on communion in simple terms? Hello, hello.

Welcome to Biblically Speaking. My name is Cassian Bellino, and I'm your host. In this podcast, we talk about the

Bible in simple terms with experts, PhDs, and scholarly theologians to make understanding

God easier. These conversations have transformed my relationship with Christ and understanding of religion.

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Thank you so much for listening. Now let's get to the show. Hello, hello. My name's Cassian Bellino, and this is

Biblically Speaking. This episode is for anybody that might identify to where I am, you know,

Protestant, evangelical, but maybe you've been interested in orthodoxy. Maybe you've been introduced to orthodoxy, or maybe, like me, you were raised in orthodoxy, and being a practicing evangelical, you're not quite sure what the difference is between us and them, which

I don't want to even say it's us versus them, but what is the difference here? What is the difference in the approach to understanding the scripture?

Why do they do confession? Why don't I do confession? Do they approach communion differently? These are the nuances of orthodoxy that I wanna sit down with Father Michael Butler.

You are a repeat guest for good reason. You are overqualified. You're such a joy to talk to.

I'm so excited to have you back on to dive one level deeper into orthodoxy. I feel like at this point we can call it a series, but I'm so glad that you're here.

For anybody that might not have listened to any of the previous episodes, go back and listen. We talk about orthodoxy, the differences.

We talk about fasting, and we have a couple more episodes even coming up about nativity for the

Christmas season, but if you are new here, Father Michael, you are an orthodox priest for over 30 years.

You are my aunt's priest in Michigan, so if you are in Michigan, absolutely go to his parish, but you also are a qualified scholar to talk at this depth.

You have a PhD in church history and patristics, and then you also taught at the university level. You formed church leaders.

You're also a father, a husband, and a power lifter, which is why you are so boss, but you also even teach men how to kind of step into their masculinity in a faith -based way, so you are amazing.

I'm so glad that you're back here, especially to talk about our approach to scripture and kind of the differences in evangelical and Protestantism, but also communion, confession, and God's grace, so welcome back to the show,

Father Michael. Thank you. My modesty, I don't know what to say after such an introduction.

You're too kind. You are so cool. I'm so glad that you're on the show. Thank you for your time.

Okay, so kind of getting right into it. Sure. What is the difference between how

I interpret scripture and how you interpret scripture? What I love about these is like, what's the difference and what's the similarity? Okay, well, first off, the difficulty is

I have no idea how you interpret scripture because in the Protestant world, it's sort of like what was said in the book of Judges.

In those days, there is no king in Israel, and each man does as he sees fit. So you interpret the scripture, you pick up the book, you read it, and you decide for yourself what it means.

I don't do that. Yeah. What do you do? I open the book and I see what the scripture says, but I also see how the church has interpreted that scripture.

I see what the Holy Fathers have said about the scripture that I'm reading. I look for the consistent teaching of the church on how a given passage or a book is to be interpreted that's been consistent over 2 ,000 years and across various cultures because the church is a living reality.

And this is what we're talking about when we talk about tradition. Tradition is the life of the Holy Spirit in the church.

And the same Holy Spirit which inspired the scriptures is the same Holy Spirit that guides the church, which illumined the great authors and saints of the church.

And being the same spirit, their interpretation of the scriptures should be consistent with the scriptures themselves, it being the same spirit.

And to the degree that my understanding of the scriptures aligns with what the church has always taught, then

I think I'm on pretty sure ground as to what the scriptures actually mean. I can absolutely see that point of just kind of keeping yourself grounded and what's always been true versus trying to update it or modernize it.

I think the main - Or read it out of context. Like just pick up the book and open it for myself and decide, oh, you know, here am

I with whatever Christian background you may or may not have and decide that this is what the text means.

Okay, that's fair. You might write from - You know, there's basic stuff. I mean, most people can read a text intelligently, come up with the basics, but it's very easy to be misled on some more subtle issues.

St. Paul's scripture says, St. Paul writes some difficult things. It's not always easy to parse out what it is he's saying.

You know, and some things are hard to understand. So what do we do then? Just, oh, I'll just pass over that.

I'll ignore it. Well, I don't, that doesn't agree with me. Or the, I'm sorry, I was raised in Texas around a bunch of Southern Baptists, you know, and, you know, they always said doctrine divides.

So they would never talk about doctrine, but everyone had an opinion. Well, my Bible says, or it seems to me that, or my favorite one, well,

I believe, you know, or the way I read it is, there's no truth there.

This is all personal opinion, you know? And I mean, even, I mean, and here

I even, I even see this as well. You're just further example on like idiosyncratic, personal appropriation of the text for personal reasons.

I mean, even someone whom I respect as highly as I respect, say example, John Eldredge, because I love his work,

Wild at Heart. There's like 26 different Bible translations that he references in that book, because he looked for different translations that would say what he wanted to say, rather than him saying what the scripture said.

And I see this frequently in Protestant works, the few times that I read

Protestant works, but I've noticed a penchant for trying to find, you know, scripture to be shoehorned into what it is that I want to say.

And for the Orthodox, this is absolutely untenable and cannot be done. The scriptures are to be understood the way that the church has always understood them, you know, and guided by people who are much holier than we are.

And so we tend to trust their understanding. And, you know, this is part of it. It's not just that the Holy Fathers, we set them up, you know, just, you know, as an authority.

There's because we can say amen to what they wrote, because again, they were able to put into words for us what we understand.

Maybe we're not the most articulate people, but the Holy Fathers, they said that. We like what they say. They've articulated it well.

I can say amen to what they say. So the entire church has given them that authority throughout the ages.

And so just make sure that you're in line with what the church has always taught. You know, regrettably, you know, in the

Protestant Reformation, the entire Protestant world cut themselves off from that, explicitly rejected it.

And so, you know, you're kind of left your own opinion. Actually, in most

Protestant communes, there is a tradition. They don't, like, you don't like to admit it because you say you don't believe in tradition, but you do have a tradition.

I'm just honest about mine. Okay. The love's off today. And the

Protestant churches are just dishonest and acting in bad faith. No, seriously,

I mean, look. Are you thinking of a specific tradition? No, I'm just thinking broadly, you know?

Okay, yeah. The inner illumination of the Holy Spirit will teach you in all truth. Okay. Matthew 16, "'To

Aspetrus et super hung Petra, "'medificabo ecclesiae meum. "'You are Peter, and upon this rock, "'I will build my church.'"

Now, does that refer to the Pope of Rome or not? Ain't no one in the Protestant world gonna say that it refers to the

Pope of Rome. Okay? But you do. There is your tradition. I'm just saying there is a tradition there, and you ought to be honest about it and own it, all right?

And then we can talk a little more in depth about these. Forgive me. Gee, I'm pugnacious this morning.

I don't know why. I know, you are spicy today. I apologize. I don't mean to offend your audience, or rattle out of the bag.

No, I appreciate the gloves off approach. Okay, so, so many questions. I mean, I absolutely see your approach. I mean, you drive a really hard bargain there, but what about people, like, you're completely on the money.

Like, Protestantism is very much so like Holy Spirit -led, and the Holy Spirit is a helper. And I think it is kind of within our tradition to not take those extra steps to see what the church leaders have said, to see what's always been said about a scripture.

We're really guided by our pastor when it comes to Protestantism and evangelicalism, of like, this is what the leader of the church is saying.

It is his job to interpret this. And if I'm confused, or I don't know, the

Holy Spirit's gonna meet me halfway and help me understand what God is trying to communicate within me.

Read this verse that the pastor brought up this Sunday. What's wrong with that? I feel like that is what we're meant to use the

Holy Spirit for. First of all, we don't - It's us depending on the helper that God gave us. I will take issue.

We don't use the Spirit. The Spirit uses us. So I'm gonna flip that one on its head in the first place.

And second place, yeah, no, God is not instrumental fulfill us like that, all right?

We belong to God. I'm sorry, you're talking that Jesus is my co -pilot thing. Sorry, he's in the pilot seat.

We're in the co -pilot seat, all right? And this is part of the Protestant world's rationalist enlightenment origin of where I get to be the one to pick and choose.

I get to be the one to decide on everything. And I'm the final arbiter and authority here.

Okay, which means 45 ,000 Protestant denominations. That's what happens.

You don't like what your pastor says, you go to the next church and see if you like what he says better. I mean, properly, and I think by and large, if you go from one

Orthodox priest to another, he's gonna tell you largely the same sort of thing. I may say it in one way, because I have my background and my experiences and all may say it with a slight

Southern accent, but the next priest will say largely the same thing. And if I say, oh,

St. John Chrysostom says this about, they say, oh, yeah, sweet, I didn't know he said that. It's like immediate alignment.

But simply to sit around clutching my NIV and saying what this scripture passage means to me,

Yeah, so this would be kind of more like eisegetical and exegetical interpretations.

Is that what you're referencing? Somewhat, and I'm just referring to the understanding of the scriptures as grounding in something bigger than my own subjectivity.

And I think that's one of the benefits of having the church and having a tradition is that it frees us from the tyranny of our own subjectivity.

And it also creates a bit of humility so that I am not the final arbiter of what is true.

How do you argue this? Well, God told me that's the way it is. Prove it. Doesn't that take a lot of time though?

Like, doesn't that, like you almost have to stew in the word because you're like,

I don't know what all of church history and all of church leaders and all of history have said about this verse.

Now, I can't move on until I do so much back reading and back studying to see what is the proper way to interpret this verse.

Is that what the expectation is here? No, you start and you course correct along the way. I mean, rather than reading sappy devotionals,

St. John Chrysostom is not that difficult to read on his commentary. Like scholars to this day are quoting

St. John Chrysostom's commentary on Romans. I mean, he was that insightful. And they're a compendium of the sayings of the fathers.

One of the best things I ever saw published is called Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture. It takes the entire

Bible and it gives for each little like story like, or parable in the gospel or whatnot, you know, each little story or parable.

It then gives a brief summary of what the Christian tradition has said about this and then gives brief quotations from the fathers that illumine how they understand that passage.

And ultimately, I mean, the place for the scriptures are read and understood is in the matrix, is within the community, the

Christian community, because the scriptures are proclaimed in the liturgical assembly, in the midst of the church.

That is the proper place for the scriptures to be read and to be interpreted. That's the place where they are proclaimed.

And as some of the Orthodox hymns say, the holy fathers are those who sang the harmonious hymn of theology in the midst of the church.

So even the teaching of the fathers and of all the tradition grows out of the common experience of the people of God.

And we just make sure that what we're understanding is consistent with that. And it doesn't take that long being, you know, sort of, in my case, in an

Orthodox context, you begin to get the savor. You may not be able to, you know, that something's just not right there.

I can't put my finger on it. I couldn't explain it to you, but something just sounds off in like what

I just read or what you just said. You know, it doesn't take that long in the church before you begin to get this near intuitive sense, you know, of what's, oh yeah, that seems consistent with everything else that I know about Christ and the gospel.

This doesn't, you know. And then, you know, for those who have time and like I did, you know, the means to have spent eight years in graduate school studying this stuff intensely,

I mean, that's all well and good, but I mean, even myself, I don't set myself as an authority. To this day, when

I prepare sermons, I go back to the fathers. I check their commentaries and all before I preach. That is so much work.

I mean, isn't that daunting for the common churchgoer? This is, the proclamation of the gospel is an important thing.

And the reason we need to understand the scriptures correctly is because if we don't, if we lead people astray, their salvation may be dependent upon their correctly understanding the word of God.

Okay, okay, okay. I don't know how it is in the Protestant world. I honestly don't.

Maybe this is a genuine question for you. Does your pastor believe that he has to stand before the fearful judgment seat of Christ to be responsible for all of your souls, the souls of everyone in his congregation?

I don't know what the expectations are, but that sounds pretty on -brand. I don't know either, but it is for me.

And I am responsible for every soul in my care. And if they're lost, that's laid at my feet.

And so, yeah, I do take time. And yeah, I know in the Protestant world, simplicity and ease and like bare minimum observances.

Yeah, just believe, just do this, just, just, just, you know, least little bit, you know, when you're saved and once saved and you're always saved, walk the sawdust trail, you know, follow the four spiritual laws, and that's all you need, period.

Very minimalistic. What I'm saying is direct, it, you know, stands in direct contrast to that.

The gospel is very rich. It concerns all of life. So we begin wherever we are.

Christ meets us where we are, absolutely. But now let's, let's, you know, let's not spend all of our lives waiting in the shallows.

You know? Yeah, no. And I don't think that that's the vibe when I go to church. I think that you are slightly correct, but it's not a lackadaisical approach.

I think it's a dependence on the power of God to meet us uniquely where we're at. And that's at least how

I interpret going to church is yes, I don't understand the teachings of the fathers and the teachings of the history.

However, I know that I'm believing in a God that's unfathomably bigger than myself, that when I show up, he knows what's in my heart and that he can meet me where I'm at, despite me not knowing that history.

And so maybe we're kind of saying the same thing, but you enrich yourself with more context when you're in church.

So it just, it lands at a deeper level, whereas I go in and I'm more dependent on the power of Christ to move through me and make changes.

That could be, that's probably what, that's probably well said. Okay. No, I love this.

I'm trying to be conscious of our time. I know I can rattle on and on and on about stuff forever. I know you wanted to talk about many things.

I appreciate you. Okay, but okay. So one of my follow -up questions is we just said a lot as far as like being very purist, like very purist in understanding scripture and not leaving much up to interpretation of being very integral in our understanding throughout the years, but orthodoxy can read scripture with more than one meeting.

And so what do you mean with allegorical or multiple senses of scripture without us getting a little bit too far off the path, creating our own interpretation of it?

Scripture clearly has different levels of meaning. I mean, we remember, you know, St. Paul, I think

I had a couple of, I knew we were going to talk about this. So I pulled up a couple of, you know, of quotations about that from the scriptures where St.

Paul, you know, in 1 Corinthians 10 forward, you know, talking about the spiritual rock that followed the

Israelites in the desert. And he says, and that rock was Christ. In the first place, nowhere in the

Old Testament does it say that the rock rolled around and followed the children of Israel. And yet that's

Jewish tradition there that St. Paul is making reference to. He says, the rock is Christ. Okay, that is a spiritual understanding of the scripture.

It is using an Old Testament image as a type, which is like a prophecy and a thing. They didn't understand what the rock was back then, but, you know, in the light of what

Christ did, they understood, oh, that rock that provided the living water for the people, that's Christ. Oh, look, a prefiguration of our

Lord and God and Savior way back in the time of Moses. The Old Testament is full of that. It's on every page, you know, and even

Christ himself, you know, he says, you know, just as Moses raised the bronze serpent in the desert, so shall the son of man be lifted up.

He was taking the image of the, you know, the bronze serpent as an image of his own crucifixion. Footnote, in that case, a serpent is one of three images in the scripture that is used to both

Christ and Satan. Jesus compares himself to a snake there, and we know the serpent in the

Garden of Eden, just to let the cat out of the bag for the other two. The other two are the lion, because Christ is the lion of Judah, and the

New Testament says that the devil is prowling about like a lion seeking whom he may devour. And the third image is the morning star, because Christ is the orient from on high, and yet Lucifer was identified as the morning star as well, which fell from heaven.

So those are the three. That's not confusing at all. Hmm? That's not confusing at all. No, no, but there, but again, so we know that there's a literal reading, but there are also deeper meanings, and also when you sit and you say, well, how does this verse apply to my life?

Mm -hmm. You're not using a literal reading of scripture. You're using a kind of application or an allegorical interpretation to apply the scripture to a new situation, namely your personal circumstances, in a way that the scripture makes sense and illumines your own life in your particular circumstances right now.

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Thank you so much. Now back to the show. So that is not actually a literal reading of the scriptures, is it?

There's a kind of an application there. So we've always done the same thing. The problem is, is that very often, and again,

I'm going to lay into the evangelical world just a little bit, y 'all tend to rely exclusively on the literal meaning.

Now, I know the history of fundamentalism, and I know why most of the Protestant churches went that route.

But the literal meaning of scripture is like the lowest common denominator.

It's like when St. Paul talks about the carnal man or the natural man cannot receive the things of the spirit.

If you're restricting yourself to a literal meaning of scripture, you're not getting anywhere near the depth of what's there.

How do you know when to go one level deeper than being literal with scripture?

Like, I think that's a bit of a dangerous road to go down because you might be misinterpreting scripture and drawing meaning when there is no meaning versus understanding that there is something deeper than just the literal scripture.

So how do you, as an Orthodox, approach that? How do I, as an Orthodox, approach it? Oh, that's easy. I see what the fathers before me have done.

Look, we've been reading the scripture for 2 ,000 years. You know what I mean? Even like the earliest Christians, like St.

Paul writing in the epistle to the Hebrews, you know, where he says, you know, he's talking about the veil in the temple that was torn in two at the crucifixion of Christ.

He says, the veil was his flesh. So he's interpreting the veil of the temple and the rending of the veil with the piercing of the side of Christ when he was hanging on the cross.

All right? And then you start playing with those images. This was done, you know, already in the New Testament times.

They were seeing the deeper meanings. And forgive me, you yourself just earlier were saying, well, if there's something difficult, you expect

God to guide you into the understanding and to help you along the way. Okay. You know, so why are we suddenly afraid of reading the scriptures more deeply?

Okay. Okay, that's fair. Because, and I mean, this is, and this, honestly, this is where it gets really fun.

Because if you understand then that there are deeper meanings of scripture, then what you do is, especially as Christians, we should read the entire

Old Testament through Christian eyes. And we see the entire

Old Testament. Say that again, but differently. What do you mean by that? I mean, you look for Christ on every page of the

Old Testament. That brings out the real meaning of it for Christians. We don't read the Old Testament like Jews.

Simple example. Genesis 1 .1. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

The earth was void and without form, and the spirit hovered over the deeps, and God said, let there be light.

There's God. There's the spirit hovering over the deep. What does God speak?

His word. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. There's the Christian trinity in the first two verses of Genesis.

Wow. That's not that deep. And yet,

I just read the scriptures in a fully Christian way. Moses holding his arms outstretched while Israel was defeating

Amalek. That's an image of Christ hanging on the cross, since we were talking about the bronze serpent earlier.

Isaac. Abraham and Isaac going to sacrifice Isaac. Abraham puts the wood of the sacrifice for the burnt offering on Isaac's shoulder.

Isaac is walking to his death, carrying wood on his shoulders. Can you see an image of Christ carrying his cross?

Here. That's good. That's how the church interprets these things. You see?

That's really good. And there's literally two millennia of understanding and depth and meaning here.

It's all there. It's all there. It's not that hard to access, and it makes the scriptures beautiful, and they come alive, because you do find

Christ on every page. Beginning at the book of Psalms, first Psalm, blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the impious.

Who is the man who walks not in the counsel of the impious? That's Christ. And we're already talking about Christ.

Clearly, the second one, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? I mean, he says that from the cross. We know that's from the

Psalms. But here, the righteous one. Christ is on every page. And so when we read them a little deeper, we can see

Christ on every page. Then the scriptures blossom in a way that they never have before.

And you won't get that with a pedantic literal reading. Running my own podcast,

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Take a breath, slow down, and dwell in the good things. Now back to the show. Wow. I love that.

I hope that's inspiring. I mean, try to, like I say, this is not inaccessible stuff. I mean, it's there, at least in the

Orthodox world, this is like very commonplace because we sing about these sort of things in the hymns that we sing throughout the church years.

So if you just attend the services, it's going to be mentioned. Yeah. Let's talk about something that has slowly become very important to me and being raised in the faith.

Communion was something we did every once in a while. Protestantism, it's not really the focus.

And then there was always this like kind of climactic moment. Maybe people can relate, but like you're in your church, you do the whole service, it's very moving.

And then they're like, all right, now we're taking communion. And then you take the communion. And they're like, now think about it.

And I was like, what are we thinking about? Like I was always so confused in the pews. But then when

I spoke with Dr. James Sedlicek, he gave me the Jewish background of what was happening when that Seder service, when

Jesus said, take my body broken for you and what he was referencing and how it was

Jewish marriage vows. And it makes me so emotional. And then I spoke with another professor and he was saying that that blood within us is sanctifying us like blood sanctified the tabernacle to allow

God to dwell within. And so now we are sanctifying the way for God to dwell within us. What is the

Orthodox view on communion in simple terms? And then we'll go one level deeper. Okay.

In simple terms, we received the very body and blood of Jesus Christ in Holy Communion. It is not a mere memorial.

It is not a mere commemoration. It is not a representation. As I heard one

Protestant minister willfully misquote the scriptures, this represents my body.

No, it is the literal body and blood of Christ broken on the cross and shed there for our salvation that we receive.

And we receive it for the forgiveness of our sins, for communion of the Holy Spirit, for fulfillment of the kingdom of God, for boldness before Christ.

And we hope to God not for judgment or for condemnation. So you see it as literal flesh.

It's not meat on the, no, it's the body and blood of Christ. It doesn't cease to be bread and wine.

If it ever does, there's something seriously wrong there. And that is a case - Like his presence is there.

Like I'm trying to find the fine line between. Yes, that is a - Because I've heard people, I've heard of people just being like, this is his literal body.

And it's like, obviously that's not flesh. And obviously that's not blood, but it's also not a representation.

So where's like the middle line that you're saying? Like, it's his literal presence. Like how do we, how do

I try? I'm like having difficulty. You're trying to articulate a mystery, my dear, and it's not gonna work, okay?

Come on, that's why you're here. The closest I can come is that it is 100 % bread and wine and 100 % the body and blood of Christ.

Not 50 -50, not 99 -1. 100 % both. And yes, that's an act of faith.

Okay? There it is. Yeah, it is an act of faith, but Christ gave it. He says, he didn't say this represents my body.

He says, this is my body. And when he said that to the Jews in John chapter six, it says, how can this man give us his body, his flesh to eat?

And they left him. And he says to the apostles, are you gonna leave me too? They said, where are we gonna go?

You got the words of eternal life. And St. Paul, when he talks about the Eucharist in 1 Corinthians, what's that, chapter 15,

I think, you know where he says, and you don't discern the body and blood. And for this reason, many of you are sick and some have died.

Sorry, representations do not kill you. You take into yourself the body and blood of Christ God, and you are unworthy to receive it.

It will hurt you because it is a fire which consumes the unworthy, and that's biblical.

That is why we confess our sins beforehand. That's why we approach with the fear of God in faith and in love.

That is why we do not allow non -Orthodox to participate in our Eucharist, not because we're being mean -spirited and exclusive.

It's because if you don't know what you're doing, it can hurt you. And I care enough about you not to give you something that will hurt you.

And if I know that people have been immoral in my congregation and have done something where they should not approach the chalice,

I will tell them not to, because I don't want them hurt by it. But I understand what you're talking about.

I mean, we'll talk about confession, but I understand the confession, you fast after midnight and you do not put anything in your body until you have communion.

I understand that. But Protestant church, you woke up, you had breakfast, you did not go to confession, end of service, they offer it, you take it.

I was fine. I wasn't hurt. That's because it's not the body and blood of Christ either, is it?

No, it's an ordinance. He just said, do it, so we're going to do it. You don't consecrate anything.

You pass out. I don't know what you use in your church, but if I've seen typical Protestant practices to pass out some kind of unleavened bread or matzo or cracker, and you probably got grape juice and not wine.

There was no consecration. I see. There was no calling of the

Holy Spirit on the gifts to change them from bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.

I see. I mean, that's a difference. And I'm just, I feel obligated to throw this out there too.

You know, it says in scripture, I'm sorry, I'm losing my verse now. If you, unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

What verse is that? Oh, you would ask. Now, if it comes to me,

I'll let you know. I'm sorry. You sent me so many verses. That's a wild verse.

Oh my gosh. Okay, going back to communion,

I think one of the things that made me the most emotional is that the fact that, take my body broken for you as a marriage vow.

And why was he saying marriage vows when talking about communion?

What's happening? I'm not familiar with this. I mean, this is absolutely fascinating. I'm going to have to go look it up now as soon as we're off the call.

I'm not familiar with this. See, so even someone who has studied this the church history and the fathers for decades now, this is the beauty of it.

There's no end to the study. There's no depth you can get to the bottom of. It is a constant enrichment.

And the scriptures just become even more real and more beautiful and more full and meaningful. Constantly. See, yeah, this is what we're doing.

I learned this from Dr. James Sedlicek in an entire conversation. I'll send it to you. And it's, what about the

Old Testament should we be honoring today in the New Testament? And we went through every single fast, feast and festival.

Why? And when we got to the Seder service, what Jesus was celebrating at the

Last Supper, this is my understanding of it. So forgive me if I don't understand it fully, but this is my interpretation of what

Dr. Sedlicek said is that during a Seder service, that's a Jewish meal that there's almost like phases to this meal.

You serve certain food at certain times. You say certain words. And the words he was supposed to say was not to take my body broken for you.

Jesus went off script. And that's where he said something that, these poor apostles are like, when is

Jesus saying it? Why is he make like saying wedding vows to us? And I think that that is

God giving his life to us. That is him bonding himself to us in a blood covenant the same way you would in a marriage when you consummate it.

And I think it created this level of intimacy that I wasn't like familiar with.

So now when I like do take communion, it's, oh, I hear the clickety clacketing.

I'm sorry, keep going. So is there an orthodox understanding of communion that it's a union of the bridegroom and the bride?

Or is this just for this one? Okay, could you go a little bit deeper into what your take is on that?

Book of Revelation. Oh, I was talking. The lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, the lamb as one slain that stood on the altar in heaven.

And then what is it at the end of the book? The marriage feast of the lamb. This is what we're doing.

Christ is the bridegroom of the church and he unites with his bride on the cross.

And so yes, the nuptial imagery is always there. In fact, in Holy Week, the days leading up to the account of the passion, death, and resurrection of Christ, the evening service are called the bridegroom services, where the main hymn is, behold, the bridegroom comes at midnight.

Blessed are those who are not found sleeping. Oh, my soul, do not be found sleeping, but rouse yourself and cry, holy, holy, holy.

This is the way he unites himself to the church. So I ask you, if, as this other guest on your podcast, that's beautiful,

I think he's absolutely right. If the act of communion is the nuptial union of God and his people, why are you doing it quarterly?

Jesus said, as often as you do this, do it in remembrance of me. I actually happen to know why it's done infrequently.

There was a time about 200 years ago where throughout the entire Christian world, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant Europe, communion was regarded so holy and all that people did not receive communion but a couple of times, once or twice a year.

And in the Protestant churches, they quit holding communion services except quarterly. And in some places,

I think I understand, I think that's Amish practice to this day. And I know some of the fundamentalists in the

South, I think, have communion quarterly. Maybe Church of Christ, if memory serves right.

Don't quote me on that. But it was out of deep respect for it. They didn't want it to become ordinary and plain.

Then that was sort of the whole understanding. I mean, but that was like across the whole Christian world. It's phenomenal.

I would love to know why everybody came to that same understanding about the same time that they did.

But anyway, he says, do it as often as you do it. And that's the American remembrance of me.

And like I said, if it's the union of, if it is the union of your soul and God, why wouldn't you do it daily if you could?

I mean, that's why Catholics have daily mass. I think I just really want to modernize this interpretation in a way where anybody who's listening is like, it's just something you do at church.

And I want some help being like, this is the consummation of the marriage.

And then like, this is basically what communion is. It's us binding our flesh to Jesus's.

Like, would you agree? Like it is the same as a wedding night. Like that's how important communion is. Yes, absolutely.

It's why we do it every Sunday. It's why we prepare for it so carefully because that's why we fast before.

The first thing we want to put in our mouths is the body and blood of Christ because the table of the altar, the

Lord's table is the table of hospitality from which the dining room table or the coffee hour after the service is but a reflection.

It's why we abstain from intimacy with our spouses the night before we receive communion because the union that we have in Christ is the true union of which the union

I have with my wife is a reflection and a secondary one because she's my sister in Christ as well as my wife.

And we both share in the communion with Christ and we share the same one bread, one chalice, one liturgy.

We stand together and we receive Christ together because that union is first and it supersedes everything else.

That's how important it is. Yeah. Is this how, is this like, okay, so let's say someone's listening to this and they're on their way to church and they're about to have communion at that church service and then they have it, let's say it's a

Protestant church too. I'm just trying to like make this as relatable as possible. And now they said, okay, great.

Everyone just took, you know, they go through it. You know, it's nice, it's special. You can take your communion. Now think about it and sit with Jesus.

What should that person think about? Oh God. You mean like, okay, now

I've just done the central act of Christian worship commanded in all four gospels and referenced by St.

Paul and I'm supposed to come up with my own thoughts about it. In the first place,

I think the pastor needs to structure the service better. Honestly. Okay, you're the pastor.

You tell us, what should we be thinking about? Now, actually what we just discussed, I think is very good.

He says, do it in remembrance of him. Okay, where was Christ's body broken? Where was his blood shed?

What did he do for us? This is the fullest expression of God giving himself fully to humanity.

God became man. And then I'll put this question to you. Why did

God become man? St. Athanasius in the fourth century answers this question.

God became man that man might become God. That we be divinized.

That we be joined to his divine nature as it says in second Peter. Become partakers of the divine nature.

That by receiving communion, we are taken up into the very life of God. And we are united with God in a way that is beyond words.

In a union so perfect that even the intimacy of a marital union is but a reflection and a pale reflection of it.

How perfect a union must that be? How deep a union must that be? How deeply must God love us if he's willing to give himself to us?

If God in Christ himself who put himself into the hands of sinners in the days of Pontius Pilate and allowed them to do to him what they did, loves us so much that he is willing to put himself into our sinful hands today.

What will we do with Christ? That'll keep you awake at night if you think about it.

I think that's what we're sitting in church and thinking about too. My God, my Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ, the eternal son of God, the one of the

Holy Trinity has come down and placed himself in my hands today. Frankly, I don't know how you can sit on your dupas on a church bench or a pew and sit there while you're doing it.

Yeah, I'm being polite. It's like, it's not your church. You know, but sit there.

I mean, my God, you ought to be at least standing but, you know, I make a prostration on the ground.

I throw myself on the ground before I dare to approach the chalice. I mean, think about it.

If this is what you say it is, back up. If this is what the

Orthodox say it is, that governs everything that we do up to that moment and the way that we approach the chalice and the way that we receive it with piety and humility and the fear of God.

If you're just sitting in a pew casually receiving something as it's passed down and you think about whatever you wanna think about afterwards, what does that say about your attitude towards what it is?

Very different attitudes about what we're doing, okay? Just by outward behavior.

How do you approach it? I mean, I can't imagine sitting down and receiving communion.

I mean, it is, to me, it is incomprehensible because for me, I am approaching my Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

I can't do that sitting on my butt. I just can't do it. Okay, so I think that it comes down to not knowing what you don't know.

Like there's this, what is it, unconscious and conscious of life. Neither is it taught, so there is no expectation.

So I don't say that with judgment or in condemnation. You know, all I'm saying is that it's reflective of what y 'all really believe about it and it's reflected in your behavior, your demeanor and the way that you approach it.

And we have an extremely elevated respect in the way that we approach the Eucharist because we have a much deeper understanding and valorization of what that really is.

So I would say you go back. And before someone is kind of overwhelmed with like guilt and shame of kind of doing this at this diluted level.

If you're overwhelmed with guilt and shame, come to confession and we'll talk about it. You know, seriously, and I tell people, you know, and if your conscience accuses you,

Nina says this in the Bible, you know, if your brother has something against you, leave your gift at the altar and go be reconciled first.

How can you sit there and commune with God if you know that your brother has something against you, if you're not reconciled to your brother, if your conscience isn't clean, if you haven't repented of your sins?

Yes, communion is given for the forgiveness of sins. And I know you asked in the notes that image from Isaiah chapter six, lo, this has touched your lips, it shall take away your iniquities and cleanse you of your sins.

That's what the Orthodox priest says after giving communion to everybody. And it's the passage from Isaiah when he's looking at the heaven, you know, he's up in heaven beholding, you know, the heavenly temple and God says, who will we send?

And he says, here I am, send me. And lo, one of the angels took a live coal from the altar of incense.

Yes, there's an altar in heaven. And he touched the live coal to Isaiah's lips and lo, this has touched your lips, it'll take away your iniquities and cleanse you of your sins.

Which means that the Eucharist is like a live coal that cleanses our lips, cleanses us from our sins, is given for the forgiveness of sins.

If you have serious sins, you ought to consider whether or not you should be approaching it because it is a fire. And some of our hymns talk about that.

You know, it says, and strange wonder, I who am straw partake of fire.

And strange wonder, I am not burnt up, but I'm set aglow.

And it's beautiful. That's what communion is supposed to do. Because there's a couple of images of God, you know, the

New Testament, God is a consuming fire. Fire has two qualities, light and heat. If you're prepared to receive

God in communion, the light of God will illumine your soul and the heat of God will warm you with his love.

If you're not prepared for that, the light will blind you and the fire will burn.

And with reference to being prepared, that is confession. Yeah, for us it's generally confession, yeah.

But again, also just keeping the fast, knowing that this is the first thing I want to put in my mouth today.

Because this meal, the Lord's Supper from that table is the most important thing. So I'm not gonna eat anything else before that.

Then after I have 10 hierarchy, I'm gonna nourish my soul first, then

I'm gonna nourish my body later. Kind of makes sense, you know? Let's take care of the best and the highest in this first.

Taking care of the soul would be kind of confessing your sins to a priest. Yeah, I think confession, yeah.

Okay. Well, also coming to communion and not eating breakfast beforehand, that's what

I'm saying here, is just feeding your soul first in Holy Communion before you feed your body at coffee hour afterwards.

Because the soul is more important than the body. There's a natural hierarchy here. So let's take care of the important stuff first.

Of course. Well, for us, the Protestants, we also confess, but it's not as set up as you guys.

We don't go into a room. We don't talk with somebody else. It's really just me and Jesus being super honest with each other.

And he already knows what I did. He sees everything. What's the difference here? Are you guys getting more grace?

Are you guys getting a special level of forgiveness that I'm not getting when I just, in my privacy of my prayers with Jesus, I'm confessing my sins?

Because I don't think anybody here is against confessing. It's just you guys do it differently. And I remember being raised in the church, being eight years old, being pulled into a room with a priest and having to say everything

I've done wrong, which is like, I lied and I coveted and I stole and I'm so young. And this poor priest is like, oh my gosh.

It's a wild experience to be so humbled before a stranger. And then you go through everything with communion and fasting after midnight.

But what is being imparted for the Orthodox that is different, same for Protestants?

Y 'all aren't doing what the scripture says. They just said, confess your sins. To one another.

So going into a room and kneeling down by your bed and having a heart to heart with Jesus that you spent all afternoon smoking weed, playing video games and jerking off to porn is not the same thing as going to your pastor or to even to another believer and confessing the same thing.

I think we could both agree to that. And we were told to confess our sins one to another. And Christ also gave to his church the power to bind and to loose, which that was given to the apostles who with the laying on of hands gave it to all the bishops who with the laying on of hands give it to priests.

So I have the authority to bind and to loose when people come to confession.

And if I say that your sins are forgiven, they are forgiven in heaven. You have that assurance.

Not that Michael Butler can forgive sins. I can't forgive sins. And the Orthodox are very careful in the way that we say that.

We don't say like the Roman Catholics, I forgive your sins. Because I can't forgive sins.

In fact, I'll give you the prayer here that I say here in just a second after I get through with my explanation. But we're told to confess our sins one to another.

In the earliest church, you stood up in front of the congregation and confessed.

Can you imagine? Yeah, I can. Which is why the church says, we don't wanna hear this.

Father, you listen to it on our behalf. And the priest said, okay,

I will represent the entire community and stand here. And the prayer that all

Orthodox priests say before a confession is, includes the line, I am but a witness bearing testimony before him of all that you say.

And that's the idea. You confess to Christ, I am a witness on behalf of the entire

Christian community that you are confessing your sins one to another the way that the gospel says.

And afterwards, the prayer which I say is, my spiritual child, by name, you've confessed to me an unworthy man and I, humble and sinful, cannot forgive your sins on earth for only

God can do this. But according to his divine command, which was given to the apostles after the resurrection of our

Lord Jesus Christ, what sins you retain are retained, what sins you forgive are forgiven. Because of this, we also boldly say, all that you have confessed to me an unworthy man and all that you have not said due to ignorance or forgetfulness,

God forgives you, now and in the life to come. Covers all the bases.

Okay, so confession and worship and communion. Okay, so in two ways, what

I'm doing is more biblical than what you're doing. Because you're confessing sins to someone else as a representative of the whole

Christian community and also the power to bind and to loose is being exercised. And the church, in the person of the priest, the church is saying, because you have done what the gospel requires,

God has forgiven you your sins. Okay, what about? When I say your sins are forgiven, then by God, your sins are forgiven.

What if I go to my sister and I confess my sins to her? I feel like that happened to me recently where I felt so much guilt and shame about something.

I confessed it to my sister and she was like, Cass, God forgives you, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I know, but I had to confess this.

I needed this to be publicly said. Maybe God requires these things of us, not because he needs it, but because we do.

I mean, beautiful example. We need to unburden ourselves. Dostoevsky and crime and punishment, that was the whole thing.

Raskolnikov couldn't stand what he had done. He had to confess it to somebody. And that, it's a very human thing.

And so we can take what is a human need and a desire and we can raise it up and drench it in grace.

And you think that is one of the ways that confession and communion changes us from the inside out?

Absolutely, absolutely. It's just that postulation and humility of confession to one another, that holding that accountability, whereas communion is supernatural.

No, confession is also supernatural. How? It's like a retaste of, well, first of all, it's a reshare in the resurrection of Christ.

What? When we walk away from, after our absolution, I mean, we've shared again, look, what we do in confession is we lay at the foot of the cross, all of the sins and all of the crap that we've been carrying around.

Christ's shoulders are the only ones big enough to carry all of that shit. And we carry it around with us and feel guilty and get our complexes and our neuroses and all from it.

And we unload them all on Jesus. He has forgiven them. So it is our own participation, once again, in the saving work of Christ.

And in absolution, we share once again in his resurrection because our sins are forgiven and we walk away new.

It's like a renewal of our baptism. Oh my gosh, oh my gosh.

I mean, this is beautiful stuff. I have people, I cry at confession sometimes. These are very intimate moments.

And here you have kind of a priest's perspective. I mean, I've heard tens of thousands of confessions over 30 plus years.

And someone comes to confess, if they're remotely sincere, is a human being opening his or her heart right there in front of you?

I mean, my response is gonna be one of two things. Either I can't deal with it, I'm gonna shut down and like backtrack as fast as I can, or I'm gonna open my heart too.

And here are two people with hearts open talking about sometimes the deepest wounds, their deepest fears, the things that they have never said before another living being.

In some cases for decades, and they finally are able to speak it and to hear comforting words and words of forgiveness.

You go away 20 pounds lighter. Yeah. I mean, I really, really.

And again, there are people who hold on to these things.

And why was Adam given the responsibility of naming all of the animals at the beginning?

It is because by naming the animals, it gave Adam authority and power over them.

When we come to confession and name our sins, bring them out of the darkness and into the light and speak honestly and openly the sins and passions that lay on our heart, what we have done and neglected to do in our fulfillment of the gospel and can speak them out loud, it gives us power and authority over them.

Why do you think in Alcoholics Anonymous you have to stand up and say, hello, my name is Michael, I am an alcoholic.

We have to say over and over again, we have to acknowledge I am a sinner. I am an arrogant man.

I am proud. I have unclean thoughts. I lie, I cheat. I stole from my business. I was unfaithful to my wife, whatever it is.

And I tell you this too, no woman goes and has an abortion on Friday and comes to confession

Saturday night. Women have an abortion and it's sometimes decades before they can bring that to confession and actually speak it.

They carry guilt and shame and hurt and guilt for decades.

And I have stood with them when they finally were able to admit it and see the healing of that wound.

I'm in awe. This is absolute awe of what takes place in confession.

It's some of the most intimately human and also sacred moments that I have as a priest.

Here's a human heart, wounded and bleeding right here in front of me.

What do I do with that? Do you think I could remotely be critical or judgmental or angry with that?

I'm moved to tears. And I stand there in compassion, co -suffering with these people.

And I can speak words of encouragement and the love of Christ and speak that into their hearts and provide a balm for their wounds.

So I suppose, if that's of any interest to you, come see me after Vespers one night for confession.

But if you're okay just going in your room and shutting your door, that's better than nothing. I encourage all my people to do it too.

As soon as you say you need to repent, God have mercy on me, forgive me, I didn't mean to do that.

Or for habitual sins, Lord, there I go again. Lord have mercy, I promised you I wouldn't do that anymore.

Please give me the strength and I get right back up and get into the fight. Repent immediately if you sin, absolutely.

But we are assured our forgiveness when we confess our sins to the church and when the power to bind and to lose has been invoked.

And I can do that and I'm here for it.

That's my job. That's why I'm ordained. And -

If someone wants to go to confession, how do they? Go talk to your pastor. Just go to parish and say, when's the next one?

Or is there like a process? You mentioned Vespers, what's that? Vespers is our usual evening service.

It's typical that I, my people know, it's very common after the evening service, particularly on Saturday night before communion on Sunday morning, the priest is always available to hear people's confession.

So I'll have a line tonight after our evening service. It's just kind of every Saturday or is it like scheduled?

Yeah, every Saturday, I'm just there. We have this little ritual, we have this little thing. There's a little, basically anyone who wants to, we have chairs in our church.

So anyone who wants to confess goes and sits in the front row on the left side. And when I'm, excuse me, when

I'm done with the service, I just look out and see. And if there's people sitting in the front row on the left side, I know

I have confessions to hear. And that's it. Yeah, they'll arrange another time.

And that's it. And sometimes there's one or two, sometimes there's, there can be a couple of dozen.

Sometimes I'm hearing confessions, hour, hour and a half, couple of hours.

How long is a typical confession? Five to seven minutes, usually.

Okay. I mean, for people who come in, usually there's one or two things. Oh, Father, I screwed up. Sometimes people have -

It's me again. Yeah, yeah. But sometimes people have, and I know, like there are people dealing, working with therapists because they've got some deep issues or some trauma or something.

And so as they come to Insight, I have them, please join spiritual healing with the therapeutic healing.

So when you come to Insight and you know that your heart is burdened, bring it to confession.

Let's add the grace of the sacrament in addition to the work of therapy. That's extraordinarily powerful.

And there are some people who have deep wounds, like imagine a divorced couple, you know, where I have the woman in the parish, her husband divorced her.

She's carrying such a wound and such anger and hatred. You know, it's like any chronic condition. You know, sometimes you can go to the dock in the box, you know, and get an ointment and take care of a, you know, if you have a small wound, that's fine.

If you have a serious illness, you need to come back over and over and over again and revisit it, you know, for a period of time.

And so I have a number of people who are dealing with more grievous issues. I also do, you know, for people in recovery work, you know, sort of step five, you know, life confession kind of things and accountability.

So we can fold that into confession. So I know guys, you've been sober, stayed off the porn, good, good, you know, excellent.

You know, you've been to your meetings, you've talked to your sponsor. I'll follow up with things like that. And confession, because it usually involves sin, very often opens up opportunities for spiritual direction.

So I do quite a lot of spiritual direction just right there in the confessional, answering brief questions about, oh, you know, my fasting has been a little off.

I'm finding this difficult. My prayer rule needs adjusting. You know, somehow I'm not fitting in scripture reading.

What can I do? You know, we'll talk about, or how do I deal with this coworker? Or, you know, my poor, my poor declining mother is getting angrier and angrier.

I just can't bring myself to visit her. Father, what do I do? You know, I get all of that.

And - I really like how you said that sometimes the sickness takes a couple of treatments, the same way you can't just -

Sometimes it takes a lifetime, yeah. There've been things I've been - That lead its way.

There's things I've been confessing my whole life. St. Paul talks about his thorn in the flesh.

By God, I got mine. And there are things I can't shake. But, you know, they're just like, you know, the great, eight great sins, you know, pride, vanity, greed, lust, envy, anger.

You know, in some variation, a lot of these have us by the throat and we just can't get rid of them all on our own.

They keep us humble. Certainly keeps me humble. And I, you know, so I, there are things

I take back every time. Does it mean that I'm just reconciled and thrown in the towel on it? No, I still fight them, but, this is my spiritual struggle.

In Russian, they have a term, they have a term, podvig. Podvig means your own particular cross that you have to carry, your ascetical struggle that will make for your salvation.

I mean, for me, it's being a priest, yes. But I'm also a husband. I'm also a father. You know, all of those roles and relationships in my life are how

I work out my salvation. You know, your life is different. You have a different podvig than I do.

But I'm sure you have your struggles too. You know. Like P -O -D -V -I -G, podvig?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm sure you could look up the term, you can find it. But it basically means ascetical struggle or your personal cross, you know.

But yours will be different. So whatever it is that's difficult in your day, if you can meet it with as much grace and good humor as you can, you know, and at the end of the day, be able to, you know, to give

God the glory and be grateful to him, you're probably doing okay. I tell my people -

I'm doing what? Repeat that last part. Yeah, it says, I say, if you can bear with the struggles of the day and at the end of the day, still give glory to God and be grateful to him, you're probably doing okay.

Like not becoming apathetic to it? Or bitter, angry, resentful, hateful. That you can still guard your heart.

That you know you're fallen, that you know you're weak, that you really didn't have to honk in traffic. You really didn't have to cut off that old lady.

You know, you really didn't have to take, you know, the last, you know, the last box of cereal that was on the easy -to -reach shelf.

You know, whatever it may be, you know. And, you know, repent of the little things.

Repent of the big things, too. But, you know, examine yourself and know that in the end of the day, you're still beloved of God and you're still a wretched sinner all at the same time.

And God, how can he love me? And go to sleep with that awe in your heart. You're probably okay.

Just as like a final question, and this is probably, you know, we could go a lot of different directions, but what is a common misconception about orthodoxy that you'd want to clarify?

Yeah, one of the most common ones I run into all the time is that somehow you have to be Greek or you have to be

Russian to be orthodox. You don't. No more than you have to be

Scottish to be Presbyterian or German to be Lutheran or Swedish or Finnish.

I happen to know Swedish and Finnish are Lutherans as well. But somehow we get pegged in this ethnic hole because I always get asked, first of all, you know, they'll see me in Cassock and all and say, oh, what are you?

I say, I'm orthodox. Oh, Jewish? Yeah, lots of Jews were big humpkin silver crucifixes.

You know, duh. Who was the comedian? Yeah, here's your sign, you know.

But they say, well, Russian or Greek? Well, what does it matter to you? You know, what's the difference between them?

Russians speak Russian, drink vodka and worship in Slavonic. Greeks drink ouzo, speak

Greek and worship in Greek. Apart from that, you know, I'm English. I'm a native Texan, so I drink tequila and I serve in English.

You know, but the faith is the same. I'm being tongue -in -cheek, okay? Of course.

But the faith is the same. The sacraments are the same. The scriptures are the same. The hymns are the same. We do everything the same.

There is no difference between a Russian and a Greek Orthodox. We're simply orthodox Christians. And that somehow we're, you know, exclusively that.

So, you know, if someone is interested, come and see. Come and see. Find just the nearest

Orthodox Church and come for a service and see. I suspect - And where can they go to your service?

At my service? Well, I am at Holy Transfiguration Orthodox Church in Livonia, Michigan, which is a

Northwest suburb of Detroit. If you want to kind of see what we do, if you,

I think it's called Holy Transfiguration Livonia on YouTube.

I'm sorry. I forget exactly what our YouTube channel is. But if you put in Holy Transfiguration - And it's like a livestream? Yeah, we livestream all of our services so you can see what

Orthodox worship looks like. You can hear your humble servant preaching if you care to hear how

I preach because the sermon is there. And yeah, you can see what we do. Most people check us out online before they ever set foot in the door nowadays.

And then should they like message you before they come to be like, I'm new? Like, will you pull them aside and give them the door? Oh no,

I'm always looking for fresh meat, or excuse me, I mean visitors. Like you, you're new.

Yeah. Well, I mean, okay, hint. Don't do the new person thing and sit in the back row in the corner because nothing screams newbie like the person who sits in the back row in the corner.

All right, just move up a couple of rows and it'll be okay. But I have worked diligently to cultivate a great openness and a warmth.

We have visitors every Sunday. In fact, it's getting to where we have visitors even on our weekday services nowadays.

And we're very glad to have them. We'll never embarrass you. Usually there'll be someone there.

And like I say, got kind of people watching out for new people. So kind of put young families with other young families.

So when their kid starts crying, they're with other people whose kids are crying. You know, they don't feel, oh my

God, we're messing up everything here and they're not embarrassed. Huge numbers of young men that are coming to the church.

I have young men watching for other young men. So they get hooked in. They don't stand by themselves.

Yeah, we get them. We get them. And yeah, so they take care of their guys. In fact, it's kind of a running joke with them.

If I see a visitor, one of the fresh meat, you know, I just, oh, gotcha.

Yeah, and he'll go get them. Make sure I get a visitor's card and all. Then I meet them. If they can stay after the liturgy, we have a nice coffee hour.

Sometimes we have a full meal. So I meet them at coffee hour and I extend an invitation. If you're interested, you'd like to talk more, give me your contact information.

And I arrange to have coffee with them sometime during the week. And if I can have coffee with them,

I have about an 80 % retention rate. So if I can get, it's sort of a race.

Analytics on the sales cycle. How do you join the Orthodox Church? You have coffee with Mother Michael.

That's how you do it. Can people like call you remotely? I can't imagine that, you know, everybody listening lives in Livonia.

So can people remotely connect with you? Yeah, yeah, that's possible.

Yeah, I've given out my phone number on a public medium. Of course. I do have social media accounts, mostly not so much connected to my priestly ministry, but connected to the men's work, which

I do that's sort of faith adjacent. And so if people really want to contact me, they can go on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, or God help me,

TikTok. Don't go on TikTok. Instagram or Facebook or YouTube is better. And direct message me there.

And if you would, in the show notes, it's average to alpha, A -V -G, numeral two, alpha, is my social media handle.

And I do respond to direct messages and all there. So if someone genuinely wants to contact me, that's probably the easiest way.

Just, you know, say you heard me on Cassie's podcast and that you had a question or something, and we'll, you know,

I'll arrange a time when we can chat or something. Yeah, I'm open to that. I mean, God has given me, you know, through like through you opportunities to speak about orthodoxy, to speak about men's issues, things going on in the church.

So if someone finds it winsome and attractive, I'm more than glad to be of service to the degree that I can.

There's only so much I can do at a distance, but what I can do, I'm willing to do absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

Well, Father Michael, I am so grateful for you. And I love the gloves off approach. I love how honest and brutal you are.

It's unapologetic and I think it's really good. Oh, no, I don't mean to be brutal. And thank you. Oh, brutal! No, and my usual disclaimer for any who have made it this far through the interview, you know,

I don't set out to be offensive. So if I've said anything that was hurtful or offensive, please forgive me. It was not my intention.

No, I think that you had a very firm stance in your faith and you provided sufficient evidence for what you believe.

And I think that it drove a really amazing argument to kind of the groundings of Orthodox faith and just the need to understand scripture in a,

I don't want to say like big picture kind of way, but like historical kind of way, as well as the power of communion and confession.

So thank you for coming on and imparting this kind of knowledge. Your time is so valuable. So thank you so much. Absolutely. Always glad to be of service.