October 27, 2025 Show with Daniel Jones on “One Word of Faith Evangelist’s Journey out of Heresy & Into the Doctrines of the Sovereign Grace of God”

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 27th day of October 2025.

My dear friend, Jerry Johnson, who many of you have heard me interview here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. He is a theologically Reformed Christian apologist and documentarian, most well-known for his documentary Amazing Grace, the History and Theology of Calvinism, and also for his webcast, his former webcast, Against the World.

Well, Jerry recently said to me, you've really got to get, as a guest on your program, my friend Daniel Jones. Daniel is a fellow member with me at Drapers Valley Presbyterian Church, a congregation in the Presbyterian Church in America in Draper, Virginia.

And he said, if you'd like to hear his testimony and interview him on his testimony of having been an evangelist in the Word of Faith movement and having come to abandon and repent from that heresy and embrace the doctrines of Reformed theology, well, I think that you'd be fascinated by it, and so would your guests.

So, I have a very high regard, high esteem for my dear brother, Jerry Johnson, who is also a very generous supporter of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And I have nothing but the uttermost trust in his discernment, so I contacted Daniel and we have him as our guest today.

And we are going to be discussing one Word of Faith evangelist's journey out from heresy and into the doctrines of the sovereign grace of God. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Daniel Jones.

Thank you so much for having me, Chris.

The pleasure is all mine, brother. Well, first of all, since you are a first-time guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, as we do with all of our first-time guests, we have them give a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include any kind of religious atmosphere in which they were raised and any kind of providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to Himself and saved them.

And I would love to hear your story.

Yes, sir.

Well, I was, I grew up mostly in Georgia, moved around a lot of places, but Georgia is where I would call home, although I now live in Virginia. Really was raised, religion was very nominal in our home growing up.

It wasn't, you might say we were kind of culturally Christian to a point, but at the end of the day, if you had to sum up what we are, the religion in our home, it was liberalism. We would go to church often on here and there, we would often go to different churches, really for no other reason.

I really kind of just surmise that I can surmise is that it's just kind of what you were supposed to do, I guess. I mean, we lived in the South and, but no, not a lot of strong Christians in my family, but we had, and often it's kind of interesting because the churches we would often stay at were those like the Unity Church, which was part of the Unity School of Christianity, which I like to say is one hair short of Unitarian Universalism, but close to the same thing.

Yeah. Sadly, I had a member of my family who joined that cult, or at least was dabbling on joining that cult. She was the late wife of my nephew, one of my nephews, and she lived in upstate New York and was dabbling and was being courted by that cult.

And it's not 100 clear where she wound up because there was a solid Orthodox Presbyterian church up that way in Schenectady that I put her in contact with, and the pastor's wife befriended her. But unfortunately, there seemed to be like a spiritual tug of war going on between the Unity cult and the LPC church.

So, and she sadly passed from an incurable, inoperable brain tumor. As a very young woman, she was only in her, I think in her late 20s, mid to late 20s. But it is uncertain where she wound up in that spiritual struggle.

But anyway, that's just a side point there about my own experience with that cult.

Yes, sir. I mean, I think they're probably far more prominent up north, but I mean, they were, they still do exist in the south. What was kind of interesting is, you know, when I, growing up, I even went to Christian school from like kindergarten to the beginning of third grade.

It was like an independent fundamental Baptist type school. Really just because the education quality was better probably for any, if it, if for any reason. And it was, but it was a good education from what I remember of it.

I was a young child at the time, but throughout my life, I'd had different people who would share the gospel with me. I had different babysitters and nannies and whatnot growing up. Many of them were Christian people and some were actually very rough on me with the gospel and I'm forever grateful and I'm forever indebted to them, I would say, in many respects to this day.

But I never, I, so it was kind of an interesting thing. So I, I believed, I kind of would, I would give lip service to the Bible to a point up until I was about 17. And when I was 17, I just kind of outright rebelled.

Started, excuse me, getting into drinking a lot, doing not serious drugs, but smoking a lot of pot. And they even gotten into some new age type religions like Wicca and things like that. But those seeds that were planted for the gospel in me when I was very young by a lot of these different people, it could never escape the back of my mind.

And looking back, I think it was the Holy Spirit kind of just wouldn't let me go. But and I, I've heard in theologians in church history past have called the Holy Spirit, the hound of heaven. And I, I would have to, I can fully understand what they mean because one thing that could not escape my mind was if hell is real and the Bible is true, where am I going to spend eternity?

Because if I die, I'm going straight to hell if there is a hell. And it was, and it's interesting because today in today's modern evangelical culture, as I like to call it in the church, there's a lot of, we don't need to talk about hell.

We just need to preach the love of Jesus. And I'm like, well, look, I'm glad people told me about hell. I'm glad people scared me with the reality of hell because I needed to know, I needed to hear about it.

And it did. I mean, it was the love of Christ that drew me to repent it.

Sure.

But part of that love was warning me of the consequences of rejecting Christ, which I'm forever grateful for. What ended up happening was I eventually kind of to give the very short Reader's Digest version.

I eventually realized like, okay, if Christian, I finally had to settle the question for myself. If Christianity is true, I need to, I basically, I need to get on board, so to speak. So I was not really, I knew I kind of had a surface level knowledge of certain scriptures.

I wouldn't say I knew the Bible well. So at the time I pulled out the yellow pages, which is what we mostly had still at the time. And I started looking up churches like, okay, what church can I go to?

Because I was, I was really, I was in a very dark place spiritually. Like I said, with being, I got to where I was starting to have a real problem with alcohol and some of the Wicca and New Age type religions I'd gotten into were really, really dark.

I would say I was experiencing some very dark things at the time.

You mean in like in the areas of the occult or those Satanism?

Yeah, it was the, it was, it really was, it was the occult. It was, it was mostly Wicca.

So which is a form of witchcraft, correct?

Yes, sir. It is. I, it's kind of a long story, but I hit a, I'd gotten pretty hard in that, I think just out of rebellion. Cause partly, partially I was mad at the church. I was mad at Christians at the time.

And really I was just unconverted. I had an evil heart that hated God. I often say that an unconverted man or woman hates God. Now some are more overt about it than others. I happen to be more overt about it.

But after getting to a very dark place, I started saying, okay, well maybe I need to explore Christianity. So I contacted a local church, which in the phone book was listed under charismatic. I honestly didn't really even know what that was.

I'd heard of Pentecostal and I'd heard of different things, but I didn't really know what that was. And I, so I go to this church and long story short, the Lord saves me that day. Now what I did not realize about that church was that church was part of the word of faith movement.

Now there was enough of the true gospel for one to hear the gospel, believe and be saved, I would say, but it's not a church I would recommend. And some of the people from there I'm still friendly with to this day, they can understand that we have very real differences theologically, and I'm very open about that fact.

But I still try to, I still love them, but I cannot agree with what they're doing or what they're preaching. But the Lord did save me that day, but the day it happened, they immediately hand me books by Kenneth Hagan, Norval Hayes, just different word of faith preachers at the time.

Some who I'd heard of probably in passing on TBN or something and some who I hadn't. And so I like to say the Lord saved me, but the discipleship I got was wrong. And it led me down a path of really serious error for about 10 years before the Lord brought me out.

Before we have you continue, I just wanted to have something clarified for our listeners, especially those listeners who are not yet born again believers. You basically said anyone who is not, and I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember your exact wording, but you said everyone who is not a believer in Jesus Christ hates God.

And I believe what you probably mean by that, you could correct me if I'm wrong, is that if they do not believe in and love the Jesus Christ of the Scriptures, they hate God whether they recognize that or not.

Because there are many people who might think wrongly, I don't hate God. I love God. It's just not your God. So am I correct in my clarification?

Yes, sir, you would be correct. That's exactly what I meant.

So you, for about 10 years, were caught up in this word of faith movement church. Well, first of all, I think it'd be very wise for us to have you define that. And just so our listeners know, we have had former word of faith movement Christians or professing Christians on the program before.

I've had Costi Hinn on the program. In fact, Costi Hinn, of all the Christian media outlets available to him, he chose Iron Sharp and Zion Radio for his very first public confession that he was leaving the charismatic movement and the word of faith movement.

Of all the places, he chose Iron Sharp and Zion Radio. And if anybody listening wants to listen to that interview with Costi Hinn later on, I've done a number of interviews with Costi, but the very first one that I interviewed involved his testimony.

You can just go to ironsharpandzionradio .com and in the search engine type in Costi, C-O-S-T-I, and Hinn, H-I-N-N. And you will see our interview from September 8th, 2017. So it was almost eight years ago to the day, and the theme was From Word of Faith Heresy to Sovereign Grace Truth, the testimony of an apple that did fall very far away from the tree.

That is referring to the fact that Costi's uncle is the notorious and infamous Benny Hinn. But I've also interviewed John Sampson, who was not only a word of faith evangelist and pastor, he was a Word of Faith TV host, and he is now the pastor of a Reformed Baptist church in Arizona, King's Church of Peoria, Arizona.

And you can look up his interview as well, just type in John Sampson, S-A-M-S-O-N. But I interrupted you there, I just wanted our listeners to know that there are other interviews that I've done that go into the theology and practice of the Word of Faith.

But in your own words, tell us.

Tom McAuliffe, Jr.: Well, and kind of as a side note, I'd had a conversation with Costi Hinn early on when I was questioning, and he really was a real blessing. That's kind of a side note. John Sampson and I also have had many conversations, and he helped me when I was on the road to wrestling between continuationism and cessationism, and of which I ended up in the latter camp of where I am today.

Word of Faith really is...it's really hard to kind of...Word of Faith is different than most other cultic movements. So when you have things like the Mormons, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, they're headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah.

You've got the Jehovah's Witnesses in Brooklyn, New York, or used to be in Brooklyn, I don't know if they still are. It's different because Word of Faith is not like a centralized cult in that sense, but it is a theological movement.

So what really separates Word of Faith from biblical Christianity is that...and I say that intentionally because it is not biblical Christianity...is they would define certain...on the surface, if you were to look at most Word of Faith churches, their statement of faith would read like a pretty generic assemblies of God statement of faith, that they would affirm things like the Trinity, salvation by grace through faith, the deity of Christ, and things like that.

Where they differ is how they define some of those things. So on the surface, they look orthodox. Their statements of faith often look orthodox on the surface. But underneath, you have some very damnable doctrines.

So Word of Faith, basically, if you could sum it up in two words, it's dethroning God. They have a very low, if any view at all, of the sovereignty of God. As a matter of fact, one of the things you will often hear from Word of Faith preachers is that God is not in control.

God has done everything he's going to do, so now we have to take the authority that he's given us. So they would teach that we are little gods. Now, they may not say it in exactly those words, but they essentially...or teach some do, but they wouldn't teach it in those words.

They think that when Christ went to the cross, he not only bought salvation for us, but he bought healing for us, and prosperity, and things like that. So what we need to do is claim it. So they basically believe that because God spoke things into existence, we can do the same thing because we are little gods.

Where they take that from is a couple of different places. One is one of the main scriptures they will often go to is Mark 11, 22 through 24. It was one of Kenneth Hagin's favorite passages, and it's have faith in God.

What they'll try to say is that in the Greek, that should say have the faith of God or have the God kind of faith. And they take that to mean that God spoke the world into existence by faith so we can speak things into existence by faith.

Now, where they get that, there's many...that's kind of if you want to boil it down to the surface, it's we have the authority that God had, that Christ died on the cross. He gave us that authority to command things to happen.

And as such, they would generally discourage people from praying things like, Lord, let thy will be done. Kenneth Hagin himself would say the only time you were supposed to pray, Lord, let thy will be done is if you are praying a prayer of consecration.

So meaning like what job to take or things like that.

Yeah, I can remember. I'm trying to remember if I was even a Christian at this point in my life. I know that I was exploring Christianity or perhaps it was in the early days of my being a born-again believer.

But I remember hearing Kenneth Hagin on a Christian radio station on the way to work, a car radio, and he was mocking Christians who were on their knees begging God to answer prayers for this reason or that reason.

And he said, you stand up on your feet like a man and you boldly storm the throne and you demand what is rightfully yours as a child of God. I was shocked listening to that, knowing instinctively that is blasphemous.

Boy, it is.

And, you know, it's kind of interesting because even most non-Christians would run from guys like Hagin or Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland, they realize they're charlatans. They know that. But oftentimes it's evangelicals who are sucked into this type thing.

I mean, I was a non-Christian who got sucked in because I was totally ignorant of that mess. But honestly, I knew the names Benny Hinn or Kenneth Hagin. I'd heard them in passing or I might have seen them on TV here or there, but I didn't really know what they taught.

But it's kind of interesting how oftentimes it's non-Christians who can see these guys for what they are than many professing Christians. I just find it interesting.

Yeah, well, obviously, there's also the added factor when you're talking about non-believers. They look for reasons to mock Christianity and to avoid approaching God in humility and awe and reverence and to repent and truly put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ.

They look for reasons to avoid that and mock it. So when people like that come around who are clownish caricatures of the charismatic movement, that they're easy targets for a lot of people that aren't regenerate.

Oh, absolutely. And it's kind of interesting. So, like, that was, I like to say, in my particular situation, I like to say, the Lord did save me, but I got a lot of bad discipleship. One of the things, and it's kind of one of the reasons, I guess, and I don't like to go by experience, but it really does fit into what we now understand as, what I now understand as Reformed theology and what I confess and affirm, the Lord did keep me from a lot of many of the more serious damnable errors of that movement.

One of the things that they will teach, and this is, and I actually had not, it was not until I had gone to the, what's often seen as the premier word of faith Bible college, Ramah, Ramah Bible Training College in Tulsa, Oklahoma, or in Broken Arrow right outside of Tulsa, which was Kenneth Hagin's school, which is what he founded, that I, it wasn't until a few years in that I actually started realizing what it was they were teaching.

And really these have to go, and what I'm really referring to is, and this is the stuff that if you truly embrace, you are not a Christian, period. These are things like Jesus died spiritually. So they believe that after the cross, Jesus went and suffered in the flames of hell.

And as such, he died spiritually in hell and then rose again and became the first born again man. Well, the implication, whether they would say it or not, is that Jesus would have had to cease to be God, because God doesn't need to be born again.

God can't be born again. He's God. And some of them will outright say, well, yeah, not only did he cease to be God, some would actually go so far as to say that when Jesus walked the earth, he did not walk the earth as God.

He walked the earth as a man anointed by God.

And in fact, I'm hoping this is one of the most wicked, diabolical, satanic heresies that they teach, or that many of them teach. In fact, I don't believe John Sampson ever swallowed this lie from the pit of hell, but many of the Word of Faith movement advocates, as you likely well know, teach that Jesus Christ, after his death on the cross, entered into hell, was tortured by Satan and his demons in hell, and became the first born again man in hell.

So, Christ Jesus himself required a rebirth, according to them, and it happened in hell.

And Chris, you absolutely hit the nail on the head. And it's one of the things that, when I first began to start questioning the Word of Faith, was when I discovered, to be honest with you, I'd listened to Kenneth Copeland some when I was in that world, but he just, something never really sat right with me with him.

So, I was never really into Copeland. But I had found out about a statement he had made. I want to say it was in the 80s sometime. I think it was in one of his magazines, The Believer's Voice of Victory.

Excuse me. And he had made the statement that Jesus went into hell as a demon-possessed mortal man, and rose again as a born-again resurrected man. And he specifically said, when his blood poured out, it did not atone.

And when I found that out, I'm like, I immediately was thinking, that is the most, if not the most, one of the most blasphemous things I have ever heard. And I'd been in the Word of Faith movement for 10 years.

Now, did you hear Copeland when he said that God told him, Kenneth Copeland, that he could have died for the sins of humanity?

I had not heard that in my 10 years in the Word of Faith. I actually had not first heard that statement until after I'd been out of the Word of Faith for a few years. When I heard that, I'm thinking, what in the world?

Because the thing is, nobody really talks, nobody really talked about that. So, and one thing I seem to notice on some of those, just some of the most blasphemous things Kenneth Copeland has said, and there, they are many, seems like he has toned down over the past, I would assume he's toned down over the past 15 years or so, because he probably got a lot of heat for it, and rightly so.

Because I admit, so a lot of those things when he said, a lot of the things that I'd heard of the more blasphemous things that he had said seemed like they were more in the late 80s and into the 90s. But I did hear that, and I remember thinking, how could I have ever gotten caught up in this mess for as long as I did?

Right. And Copeland also taught that God the Father had a physical body, and ironically, approximately Kenneth Copeland's height and build, which is kind of interesting, because it sounds.

A lot more to me like Mormonism.

Exactly, exactly.

So, it's kind of an interesting, yeah, it is kind of interesting, Chris, because our mutual friend Jason Wallace and I, I was talking to him about this one day, and it's interesting to see the eerie similarities between much of the Word of Faith movement and Mormonism.

One of the things you will often hear Word of Faith preachers say, and even just Word of Faith people in general say, is not to read things that will harm your faith. Now, what they mean by that is guys like John MacArthur, guys like Justin Peters, or anybody that speaks against them, they do not like criticism.

They don't want you reading anything critical of them. What's interesting, because you'll hear Latter-day Saints say things like, well, don't read anti-Mormon literature. And then you'll hear them often say things like, touch not the Lord's anointed, and that it's wrong to criticize a man of God.

Benny Hinn said this very blatantly, that it's wrong to criticize a man of God, aka them, and let even if that man of God be a living devil. And then you hear the Mormon church leaders say things like, it's wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if such criticism is true.

And I'm thinking, and I remember, I had been out of the Word of Faith for several.

Years.

This was a conversation he and I had probably a couple of years ago now. And I'm like, it's crazy how I did not see how similar, how cultish this was in all the years I was in it and in the years I taught it.

It's just insane, Chris. There's so much, I think hindsight is very much 20 -20. Because, I mean, it's crazy how much you don't see when you're caught up in that movement.

Chris. In fact, even though I hate doing this, because I know that a lot of people are very blessed by the sight and sound theater here in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and I'm sure most of what they do is biblically faithful and God-honoring.

And the production value is extraordinary. You know, the sets that they have on their plays that they put on, their theatrical performances, the stages are Broadway quality, and the costumes and all that.

But the one time that I went with my late wife, there was an edition of the sight and sound theater plays that they did on The Crucifixion and Resurrection. I can't remember the title they gave that play.

It may have been The Resurrection, and I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that they put the play on near Easter. But they, in the play, revealed that whoever wrote the script for this must have believed in the Word of Faith teaching that Jesus Christ was tortured in hell by Satan and his demons, and they actually portrayed Jesus, after He died on the cross, tied to a chair and blindfolded as demons danced around Him and whipped Him, and as Satan watched on, laughing.

And the thing that was really bizarre, on top of the heresy there, for some weird reason, while everything else looked very realistic, and the costumes and so forth looked like, you know, first century costumes, or should I say biblical era costumes?

Not that I'm an expert on how they look, but it was just very realistic looking. For some weird reason, they made the character of Satan comedy relief during this entire play, and Satan was portrayed by a very morbidly obese man who somewhat resembled John Candy, and he was wearing a very goofy, comical, cheap-looking devil Halloween costume, the kind that a child would wear, with the really fake-looking horns and the pitchfork in the cape.

So, it was really bizarre that they would have portrayed Satan in that way, because there's nothing funny about Satan, there's nothing funny about hell, there's nothing for us to be amused by that. But I just thought I'd throw that out there, because a lot of people, even folks from my Reformed background, love sight and sound theater, and perhaps rightfully so, depending upon what plays they see, which editions they see, but I'm just warning you that you never know when something like that might be introduced into another play.

I just don't know, I'm not an expert on who writes these plays, and so on. But we have to go to our first commercial break, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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