How God Evaluates a Church — Zac Poonen

Human Choice, Conscience, and Holiness

The Bible begins with the words in the beginning God and that's how our life must begin every day. But the history of man as soon as God has created man the very next thing you read is Satan. So we can say that after God created man Satan comes in too.

And so right. In the beginning of the Bible you read about God and about Satan coming in to confuse what God has done. And we can ask ourselves this question that little children ask why did God permit that.

Why does God permit Satan to exist. I've said this many times but for the benefit of everyone again God cannot make a man holy without his making a choice. Very important to understand that because if God makes a man holy obedient to him without that man's personal choice the man is a robot.

And I'll give you examples of robots that obey God perfectly. The planets the stars. They have never disobeyed God even for one second in thousands of years. But those planets can never be holy. They can never be sinners.

Why. Because they don't have a free will. The other thing the planets and stars don't have is a conscience. You need a free will and a conscience to become a sinner. You need a free will and a conscience to become holy.

Dogs have got a free will but they don't have a conscience. So they can't become sinners. They can't become holy. No animal can be a sinner. No animal can be holy despite free will because they don't have a conscience.

Man is above all of these creation because of two things. We have a free will and a conscience. And the direction in which we exercise our will depending on whether we listen to our conscience or disobey our conscience determines whether we become sinful or holy.

Whether we end up as children of the devil or children of God. Do you know that God doesn't send anybody to hell. Listen carefully. God will not send anybody to hell. Everybody goes to hell chooses to go there himself.

God doesn't take people to heaven. People choose the way to heaven. So don't say God takes people to heaven and God takes people to hell. No it's a man's own choice supposing you come to a fork in the road.

And here is one sign that says the way to life is very narrow. Here's another sign a broad way which is the way to destruction. God doesn't push anybody in these ways. You choose at that fork which way you want to go.

And when you end up in destruction and hell you can't say God sent you there. No no no. You chose it for years in your life and you ended up there. The sign was clear the broad way that leads to destruction.

And if somebody else went to life it's not because he was some special favorite of God. No he chose it and lived that way his life and ends where he is. You know there's a verse in Scripture in Galatians which says every man will reap what he has sown.

If you sow potatoes you get potatoes. You sow tomatoes. You get tomatoes. You whatever you sow. You sow wheat. You get wheat. You sow rice. You get rice. And the quality of the seed determines the quality of the fruit.

So if you find somebody else having a rich harvest of an excellent life and an excellent family godly life and a godly home you can be pretty sure that he made some choices. And you see somebody else who's messed up his life and messed up his home.

He also made some choices. They sowed something for years and they reap the consequences. So God doesn't have favorites supposing a very godly man sows bad seed he's gonna get a bad crop. I'll tell you that however much he prays.

And here's another bad man who sows a good seed he'll get a good crop. There's no partiality with God. No you reap exactly what you sow. That's very important to understand that. The other thing we got to understand is you reap much more than you sow.

You plant one seed and it comes up into ten fifteen a hundred fold in a crop that applies to good and bad. You just saw a little good action and you reap a hundredfold a reward from God. And you sow something bad and you reap a hundredfold of destruction.

That's your choice. The other thing I want to tell you about reaping is the reaping does not come immediately. A farmer doesn't sow a seed and expect to reap next day. No it takes many months but he knows the fruit will come.

And the Bible says I want to show you a verse in Ecclesiastes in chapter 8. In Ecclesiastes chapter 8 and verse 11 Ecclesiastes is in the middle of the Bible. After Psalms and Proverbs comes Ecclesiastes.

Psalm 8 verse 11. It's a very interesting true statement because the punishment against an evil deed or the sentence against an evil deed is not executed immediately. That means God doesn't punish a man as soon as he commits a sin.

Therefore the hearts of men are completely set given fully to do evil. What that teaches us is because you don't reap the punishment immediately for what you sow. People keep on doing evil saying thinking they'll never reap a harvest.

Think for example if every time you told a lie or you got angry your tongue got a little paralyzed and then next time you got angry and yelled at somebody in anger you got a little more paralyzed. I tell you you'll get victory over anger pretty quickly.

A lot of people say it was so difficult for me to get victory over anger. Brother it's not. It's because you don't believe that there is a judgment coming for it. The sentence has not come immediately.

For example if you lust with your eyes after a woman and you became a little blind after that. Next time you lusted you became a little more blind. I tell you you'll get victory over lusting pretty quickly.

People say oh it's so difficult brother it's not difficult. You don't believe that there is a judgment for this it will come only thing it'll come a little later. So these are the laws of scripture. And I thank God for the Bible that teaches me these things.

And I thank God that I discovered some of these things when I was young that I didn't have to wait till I was an old man to learn these truths of scriptures. Wonderful to read the Word of God. It's wonderful to be in a church which doesn't preach theories and psychology but which teaches the scripture the only book God has given to man to live our life by.

Satan’s Temptation and the Development of Holiness

So I was thinking of you know in the Old Testament there's very little written about the devil. You read about the devil in the book of Job but he didn't tempt Job. He just tested Job by giving him a lot of suffering and God allowed him to test Job to prove that Job would still be faithful even when he lost his business and his family.

But temptation is described in the Old Testament. The devil tempting a man is described in Genesis chapter 3 where God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve. As I said to help Adam and Eve become holy they had to make a choice.

God doesn't tempt anybody. So if God created Adam and Eve and he can't make them holy until they have an exercise of their will how can he make them holy unless somebody tempts them to do the wrong thing.

I mean if they're never tempted to do the wrong thing they're robots. If Adam was sort of programmed like a computer programs a robot to always do what is right Adam would have walked up like the robot to that tree of knowledge of good and evil.

And the program with it within him would say turn right. And he would turn right and go to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That's not what God wanted. That would never make Adam holy. God wanted children.

Would you like a little small little robot coming up to your door when you come back from work and saying hello daddy I'm so happy to see you and hugs you. You have no interest in that robot because it's programmed to say that you'd rather have a little three-year-old naughty little boy coming up and hugging you and saying dad I love you.

That means the world to you because he's saying it on his own not because he's programmed to do it. That's exactly why God did not make us robots. He gave us a free will. It delights him. When I choose to say Lord I don't want to do anything that dishonors you.

I don't want to do anything that displeases you. I choose to do what is right. And we are making that choice many times a day many times a day with our eyes and our tongue and our actions and even more with our thoughts and our attitudes towards people which people cannot see.

But I'll tell you something all of these the sum total of all these actions that we have done in past years have made you what you are today. No partiality. If somebody is holier than you it's the sum total of the actions of the choices he has made.

Not because of partiality every one of us is making choices every day. And those choices multiply and multiply and multiply finally make us a godly man. Or if you're sitting in a church a hypocrite because you won't sit in a church and manifest your evil it will only be hidden.

It will be in private. So that's the reason why God allows Satan to tempt us so that we can be holy. It's like the man goes to a gym and exercises his muscles against resistance. If there was nothing to exercise your muscle against you'll never be strong.

You can eat and eat and eat and eat and become obese and fat but not strong. And you do eating the equivalent of that is reading and studying the Bible and hearing message after message after message after message every Sunday till our head is oozing with Bible knowledge and we are just spiritually fat not strong.

But then after we have eaten all this food we go out into the world and God allows the devil to tempt us in our office at home with our neighbors and with our children and all types of situations. And we are exercising our muscles.

Now all that food we have eaten hearing the Bible every Sunday morning is now being converted into muscle. And that's why God allows us to be tempted by Satan. That's why God allows you to be tempted in your own home.

How many times a day with so many things that children do. And everything is to go to a higher level. God takes us from first grade to second grade in temptation third grade. I remember years ago when I was when my children were small and I was having a headache and I said Lord why why this headache.

And the Lord said you have gone through one stage you overcome getting irritated when your children irritate you. But now I'm taking you to a higher level where you can overcome when you have a headache when they irritate you.

That's a little higher level. It's like a second grade and I say Lord I want to pass this. I want to overcome the little things in life. You know you can look at them negatively. Why in the world are these kids irritating me.

Or you can say well God's taking me to a higher grade now that I can overcome something. God wants you to be an overcomer in every situation. When people provoke me when people have cheated me of money.

Wisdom, Forgiveness, and Stewardship in Trials

Okay. I remember when I was a young man and I was in the Navy and I was single and I was earning a lot of money. Some believer came and kept on borrowing money from me and I kept on giving. He said he would return it and he never returned it.

At the end of it he never returned any of it and I learned something through it. First of all I learned to forgive him. And second I learned to be wise and not to give without asking God. You know what I learned there was that my money was not my own.

I acted as if it was my own. So after that what I learned is next time when somebody asked me something I said Lord I'm willing to help him. But please tell me is this the right person I should give it to.

And sometimes God says no and sometimes God says yes. So I learned some wisdom in every situation we go through in life. If you say Lord teach me something through this we can learn something. And sometimes even when you you know I've seen other believers make blunders and mistakes.

And I say Lord I don't want to criticize them. They're human just like me. But I can learn something from their mistakes. You see a foolish man does not even there are three levels of people. A foolish man does not even learn from his own mistakes.

He keeps on making mistakes. And ordinary man learns from his own mistakes. That's better. You make a mistake and you learn from it. But a wise man learns from watching the mistakes of other people. That's even better.

So that I don't make that mistake myself. So in all these situations it is a Lord. I want to learn something. I find that my entire life as once I've understood the Bible and understood Jesus and the Holy Spirit is an education.

Christ’s Education in Obedience and Suffering

Do you know that Jesus received an education. We read in Hebrews in chapter 5 he I mean when he was up there in for all eternity as God in heaven he had to learn nothing. He knew everything. But he came to earth as a baby for us.

He came to earth as a baby who knew nothing just like our babies today for our sake to teach us how man should live. He could have come as a full-grown man like Adam. But then he would have would not have been an example for little children.

So he came as a little baby so that he could be an example to people of all ages. And it says in Hebrews chapter 5 and verse 8 although he was a son. Listen to this. Although he was a son of God who had to learn nothing because he came as a baby he learned that word is there.

He learned something. Learning is a word related to education. I can say Jesus got an education in obedience. You see he could never learn obedience when he was up there in heaven equal with the Father from all eternity.

How could he be an example for me. I have to learn to obey God. So he became a man and learned obedience when that obedience involved suffering. You see I take an example when your children are out there playing enjoying themselves playing and say time to come in come for dinner or come and do your homework.

That's not a very pleasant thing for children to obey. They say no wait mommy I got just a little more time. There's obedience which can involve a self-denial and a suffering. I mean there's other obedience like eat up that ice cream or chocolate there.

No there's no problem enjoy doing that. But there's obedience that involves suffering. And I'll give you an example when Jesus as a perfect young man had to obey Joseph and Mary his earthly parents who were imperfect that involved suffering every single day because he could see that his parents what they're doing is imperfect.

What they're asking and saying is imperfect. But my Heavenly Father has put me in this house and the Word of God says children obey your parents and I must keep that law. He obeyed amazing. He learned obedience when obedience meant suffering.

And like that throughout his life when people called him the Prince of Devils Bill Zibble tempted to say well God will teach you a lesson. Isn't that a natural reaction. But he would not react like that.

He'd say you're forgiven. Have you spoken against me forgiven. Or when he was hanging on the cross and being crucified he learned obedience. It's not easy to forgive people who are evil against you and crucify you.

Obedience father forgive them. So he learned obedience in order to teach us and let me read further in Hebrews 5 9 and he became perfect means the word perfect means complete. So we can read it like this.

He went through different levels of education. For example when he was a three-year-old he could not be tempted sexually. When he was 10 years old he could not be tempted to the love of money. But by the time he because 14 15 years old he's tempted sexually.

When he starts earning as a carpenter when he's 20 years old he can be tempted with money. And then when he became a preacher healing the sick he could be tempted with pride. Everything different levels of temptation at different stages of his life he overcame overcame overcame denied himself overcame overcame never sinned.

Even once you can read that sentence which says Jesus never sinned. Very simple sentence but look into it and you see it's a lifetime of denying himself and pleasing the father that is involved in that sentence that he never sinned.

And he says to us you want to be my disciple. Follow me. You say Lord it's impossible. And the Lord says yes humanly speaking impossible. That's why I want you to seek me every day for the power of my Holy Spirit to strengthen.

The Holy Spirit’s Power for Obedience

You think of this bulb here. If you tell that bulb you must shine it's impossible. And you say well I'll give you electricity. Oh then it's easy. That's the difference. Lord it's impossible for me to shine as the light of the world.

Jesus said to his disciples you're the light of the world. Impossible. The Lord says I'll give you the power of the Holy Spirit. And the bulb says oh then it's easy. You need to understand that without me you can do nothing.

John 15 verse 5 with me you can do all things. Philippians 4 13. It's like that bulb saying without electricity I can never shine. However much I determine myself with electricity it'll be effortless to shine.

This is true Christianity. So many people are turned away from the commands in the Bible saying oh impossible impossible impossible. Yes it's meant to be impossible. You read Matthew chapter 5 6 7 the Sermon on the Mount.

Almost everything there is impossible. But the Lord leaves it like that to see how many people will have faith that God who commands it will also give me power. Sometimes he allows us to struggle and struggle and struggle and fail so that we learn a lesson that it is impossible.

You remember the disciples fishing fishing all night and catching nothing to teach them. You cannot make it without me. And when they learned that lesson the Lord said okay now I'll teach you cast your net on the right side and the net was full of fish.

What is there to teach. What is he trying to teach them. You can try all night and you won't catch a single fish. But when you trust me in a moment problem is solved. Your net is full of fish. So it's these are all spiritual lessons of the Lord's trying to teach us.

So God allows the devil to tempt us so that we become stronger. That's the reason why he's permitted. And the reason why you don't read much of the devil in the Old Testament is because God had not given the Holy Spirit to dwell within man in the Old Testament.

So you can say those were the dark ages no electricity and the bulbs are there trying to shine and they can't shine. And because there's no electricity the Holy Spirit was not given to dwell within man.

And therefore you never read about the devil. God the devil was not allowed to tempt man to the extent that he is in the New Testament. So you don't read much about the devil in the Old Testament because Satan was not defeated yet and so God did not allow men to confront Satan.

You never read of any human being confronting Satan in the Old Testament except Adam and Eve. They met the devil through that snake. And after that you don't read of the devil confronting people throughout the Old Testament.

But the moment you read the pages of the New Testament opening up you read Jesus and the first thing you read about him is confronting the devil overcoming. Overcoming. Overcoming. And then you read about Paul and Peter and confronting demons and casting them out and overcoming Satan in different ways.

So something significant happened in the New Covenant that because the Holy Spirit has come in we can overcome Satan. There's one instance I want to point out to use the only instance in the Old Testament where Satan is shown as tempting a person directly other than Genesis chapter 3.

David’s Census and Dependence on God

And many people don't know it. The only place in the Old Testament where we read Satan directly tempted somebody. And that's in 1 Chronicles in chapter 21. 1 Chronicles chapter 21 you know the Bible is so interesting if you read it carefully there's a treasure house here.

There's a there's wealth of blessing. And I discovered something here myself 1 Chronicles chapter 21 we read the first word Satan stood up and tempted David to number Israel. Now that looks like a very innocent temptation.

The devil always comes with temptations that look very innocent. Eat of that tree. It's so beautiful. That's how we came to. Eve had looked a very innocent type of thing but there was a lot of evil in it hidden in that was disobey God.

So here also what is wrong in taking a census of Israel. Why does Satan tempt David to take a census of the men when they took a census those days they would take census only of those are above the age of 20 and men.

They didn't take a census of the women because it was a census of how many people can go to battle always. That is the test. And so Satan tempted David to number the men in Israel who could go to battle.

And David's general he told his general Joab go and number Israel from north to south. And Joab had a little more sense than David and he sensed there's something wrong here. And he says in verse 3 may the Lord add a hundredfold to the people who are already here.

But my Lord these are. Why do you do this thing. Verse 3 why should you bring guilt upon Israel. He realized that this is what is the temptation here. The temptation is let me count the number of my soldiers and see how many countries around me I can defeat.

In other words I don't depend on the Lord to win my battles. I depend on the strength of my army. That is the temptation. It's a very subtle temptation. Number your army to see how many countries you can conquer.

Because Israel was surrounded by enemies who would attack them and the Lord wanted them never to number their armies but to trust in the Lord. There's a verse in Jeremiah chapter 17 verse 5 which says.

Cursed is he who makes the arm of flesh something he depends on who depends on man. But blessed is he who depends on the Lord. So that's a principle that goes right through the Old Testament and the new anyway it says in verse 4 the king told Joab to shut up go and count the number obey me.

And so Joab went. And he counted the senses of people in verse 5 and he said 1 million. Verse 5 in Israel there are 1 million 100 ,000 people who can fight. See he counted the people who can fight who drew the sword.

And in Judah there are 470 ,000 men who can fight. He only counted the people who can fight those above the age of 20. But he did not number Levi and Benjamin because the king's command was abhorrent.

Joab detested it so he didn't even count number of the Levi's Benjaminites. See the next verse. But God was very angry that David this did this he was very displeased because it was an indication of depending on the arm of man the ability of man to fight and win the battle.

It's just like us. You know the spiritual application is when I think how strong am I to overcome a temptation. In those days they were physical enemies. Today our temptation is our lusts and the temptations of Satan.

And I depend on myself. And God is displeased when I depend on myself my ability to overcome temptation. God says you don't understand my ways. You got to learn to trust me and pray to me to help you overcome.

It's a simple temptation. And then David see one of the wonderful things about David is when he was convicted he immediately acknowledged his sin. Many Christians are not like that. Even when they get convicted they sort of cover it up and say but this reason that reason the other reason.

Haven't you noticed that when you get angry with somebody and maybe at home you say well there was a lot of pressure on me at work today. That's why I got angry. Just acknowledge in my flesh there's nothing good.

That's why I got angry. That's the honest truth. Don't say there was a too much pressure on me. And today that's why I got angry. This is you know David one of the things about him when he was convicted he immediately says in verse eight Lord I've sinned very often.

He didn't realize. But as soon as some prophet came and told him your sin he'd immediately acknowledge I've sinned. I don't blame anybody else. I sinned Lord please forgive me. Because I have done very foolishly.

And please take away my sin. What a wonderful way to confess sin as soon as you're aware of it Lord it's my fault. I'm sorry I've done foolishly. Please forgive me. That's a great example. If you ever want to know how to pray to God for forgiveness go to one Chronicles 21 verse 8 say those same words.

I have sinned greatly. Please take away my sin. I have done very foolishly. He's really sorrowful. I want you to see further. The Lord said now I'll give you three things to choose. Now what I want to say is you know very often in in the Christian life we can glory in things that God doesn't glory in.

God Evaluates Churches by Quality, Not Numbers

For example God doesn't glory in human cleverness. Or if you're a rich person or you got a fancy house or a fancy car. These things don't mean anything to God. And I'll tell you another thing. God does not find great joy in a church which has many people.

You know today there are churches called mega churches 20 ,000 30 ,000 people. And people are impressed by that. Wow do you know that God is not impressed. It's just like here David counting the numbers.

There are many pastors who are counting the numbers in their church. There are preachers who count the number of countries they have traveled to. They have traveled to so many countries and preached. Somebody once asked me that question and I said I don't know.

I never keep a track. I don't want to be like David counting anything. How many people in the church. I don't want to count. I may have a rough idea but I don't want to count. You know when it says Jesus fed 5 ,000 men.

If it is today they would have taken exact statistics 5 ,185. There's no such thing in the Bible the day of Pentecost 3 ,000 were converted today. They wouldn't say that say 3 ,286. God is not counting numbers.

You get a rough idea. But he's not interested in numbers because he's interested in quality. So when he looks at a church he doesn't say how many people are there. You can go to a church and start counting the numbers.

Oh not a not a very impressive church. If you had gone to Jesus Church you know how many people would have been there 12. Would you join a church of 12 people. And especially when you know one of them is a crook boy.

That is the best church in the world. Only 12 people. And one of them was a crook. And there's no church in the world like that. That's just to teach us that numbers mean nothing. Jesus never had a mega church he could have had.

Jesus Tests the Mega-Church with the Cost of Discipleship

Let me show you an example. Turn with me to John's Gospel in chapter 6. John's Gospel chapter 6 it says about Jesus in verse 2 a large crowd followed him because they saw the signs which he was performing.

And that is the time when he fed the 5 ,000 you read in the rest of that chapter up to verse 14 there were 10. It says the men alone were 5 ,000 plus the women and children. There may have been 10 ,000 people.

Is that a mega church. 10 ,000 people wanting to listen to Jesus. Wow. Now today if some preacher saw 10 ,000 people he'd say let's take an offering. That's the first thing he thinks of pass the bag around quickly quickly before they leave after we do the preaching later.

But let's collect the offering first. But you know what Jesus did when he saw 10 ,000 people. I mean he fed them first. But then it says here later on in that chapter he went away to the other side of the sea.

And when the people heard that he'd gone to the other side they followed him. And he told them in verse 26 you're seeking me because you saw the signs and you ate the loaves and the were filled. These are the same people who followed him to the other side of the lake.

And then he told them some very hard words. I don't want to go into the whole chapter. But he said something like this turn with me to verse 53 truly truly I say to you remember this. He's telling this mega church unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you don't have any life in you.

And he repeats it again you got to eat my flesh and drink my blood. Then I'll raise you up on the last day. And a third time my flesh is true food and my blood is to drink. And a fourth time he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me nine him.

Imagine four times speaking about eating his flesh and drinking his blood. And that's it. That sounds like cannibalism. But he explained later on the words that I speak to you were 63 are spiritual. I'm not talking about physical flesh and physical blood folks I'm talking about a spiritual meaning behind eating my flesh and drinking my blood.

In other words I'm gonna give up my flesh and blood to die on the cross. You must be willing to die on the cross to you have to die to yourself life if you want to follow me. You have to die to yourself life if you want my life if you want to be raised up in the last day.

And what happened when he preached this message of taking up the cross and dying to self like he did listen in verse 66. As a result of this many of his disciples withdrew and they would not walk with him anymore.

I said we don't know on this message we want a message of prosperity. You just fed us loaves and fish. Five loaves and two fish were converted into 50 ,000 loaves and 20 ,000 fish. Prosperity and abundance.

That's what we want. Not all this business of taking up the cross and dying to yourself participating in your flesh and blood. We don't want all that. And they left him. You know what happened to this mega church.

We're 67. Only 12 people were left. We I've seen that happen in different places. I'll tell you in different churches that we have planted over 43 years now. I've seen people come initially because oh we like to hear brother Zack oh there's a great message let's hear it and they get intellectually stimulated.

And then when we talk about dying to yourself obeying God's Word completely this mega church dwindles down to a small number. I've seen that happen again and again and again. And now I happen. I've seen it so often that whenever I see it in some place I tell the elder brothers there this is now where God is going to begin his work.

Once he was left with the 12 he told them yeah you know he let me before I get there. He told them okay you are 12 left. We're 67. Do you also want to go. Are you offended with what I said just now and look at the words of Simon Peter.

We're 68 Lord where shall we go. We have tried all the synagogues. They preach wonderful messages from Amos and Isaiah and Jeremiah expounding scripture. But nothing like what you preached. This is new.

These are the words of eternal life. Verse 68 he mean taking up the cross and dying to self are the words of eternal life. I don't think Simon Peter understood it fully because he was not yet filled with the Holy Spirit.

But he knew that these are the words of eternal life. And I can imagine sometimes I use my imagination a little which is a good thing sometimes that one of these people who went away if he was living next door to Simon Peter comes to Simon Peter later on and says hey you're the guy who stood with this man Jesus.

And you said we we left him. We had enough of that teaching about participating in his flesh and blood death on the cross. But you said those are the words of eternal life. Can you tell me what he meant.

Simon Peter was hadn't even finished school. I think he dropped out of school in fourth grade. He was a fisherman. He said listen buddy. I can't explain it. I don't know I'm not such a clever man. But I'll tell you one thing I can trust this man.

It's my confidence in this man even if I can't explain his words that makes me follow him. I've seen his life. I've seen his integrity. I've seen his freedom complete freedom from the love of money. I've seen his humility.

I've seen his love for people who hate him. That's what makes me want to follow him. That's why I say he's got the words of eternal life. Not because I can explain all that he says. I can't. I'm going to say to you dear brothers and sisters Jesus said follow me.