London Question Answer — Sandeep Poonen

Encouraging One Another Across Gender in the Church

Okay, so I had two questions, so maybe I'll start with that, that I just saw over here. How do I encourage folks of the opposite sex and fellowship with them? It says, we talked yesterday too about Hebrews 3, it talks about encouraging one another daily and not forsaking the fellowship of the believers, and that's not just men, that's not just women, it's men and women.

And also 1 Corinthians 14 talks that all can prophesy, and 1 Corinthians 11 talks about when a woman prays or prophesies. So to me it's very clear that both men and women can prophesy, and encouragement and prophecy to me are critical words that can be associated with each other, so that's possible.

Caution and Accountability in Male-Female Relationships

However, as you guys all know, it's very dangerous, the relationship between a man and a woman. I see it more and more clearly like being very combustible, and the Proverbs tells you it's mysterious how a man and a woman interact, it's one of those very mysterious things.

And I can say for myself, it's sometimes the weirdest things that can spark a connection, that can lead to an emotional attachment, that can lead to all kinds of things. Forget about all the physical realm.

So I've learned from that that I have to be very, very careful. The principle I use, I mean let's just say, how do I encourage a sister in the church? Now, I'm an elder, so sometimes there may be occasion where some of the sisters may have something private or this and that.

For myself, I think as a general rule, I try not to interact with women directly when it comes to spiritual matters and alone. It's not a hard and fast rule, I'm not subject to it, but I definitely don't do it in private.

I do it in the open, so when my wife is around, or when there are other believers in clear sight, to be able to see if there's even a one-on-one. For example, my wife is sometimes running after the children or something like that, so she may go away even when we're talking, so I don't be like, okay, now we've got to stop, let's wait for my wife to come back five minutes later.

I'm not against it, that's probably the better way, to be honest, but we meet out in the open, so in a church building like this, for example, I might be sitting and talking to a lady who may have some question, and I've been okay with it.

I'm married to my wife, but I have to make sure that it doesn't get into anything emotionally related, and to refer any such situation to a person of the same sex. So in most of the cases, too, I mean, the woman is married, so I don't generally deal with any issue, just the woman.

I would go through the husband, because I respect the chain of command, and it is God has given authority for the husband over the wife, and Jesus over the husband, and God over Jesus, that's 1 Corinthians 11.

So it doesn't talk about any elder in that authority chain, so I respect that authority chain and just come on the side of the man. So, I mean, I tend to think that the church service can be a good avenue to publicly share what God is laying on your heart, and then one-on-one settings, I mean, I think we just have to use a lot of caution.

In India, for example, it's a lot more restrictive, and I understand the culture is a little bit that way. Here in America, I'm sorry, here in Britain, and like in America, it's a little bit more open, and so I don't feel that there's any verse in Scripture that says a woman cannot encourage a brother, but I think none of us are stupid.

I think none of us know the incredible combustible potential there is, and so we just have to have a lot of caution in that area. I've shared this about many issues. A lot of these questions that stump you stump everybody.

Fear of the Lord as the Answer to Gray Areas

You may think, oh, maybe some wise teacher will have a great answer, but to me at least, these are all gray areas to me, that there's no right or wrong very clearly, but I have found that in answering gray areas, and here's the key point I want to make.

I found that in answering gray area questions, the key to me is to answer a black and white question that can help. When answering a gray question, it's very important for me not to try and unpack the gray area question, but to see if there's a related black and white question that I can answer, and for me the clear black and white question in a lot of these matters is something very simple, which is, do I fear God?

Do I have a reverence for God? Because the fear of the Lord, the reverence for God is what? The beginning of wisdom. So if I want wisdom in any particular issue, if I want to be wise, the very first step I have to ask myself is, do I fear God?

So when it comes to encouraging other people, before I get the answer to should I encourage brothers and sisters of the opposite sex, the first question I have to know rock solid in my mind is, I fear God.

You know what Joseph said when Potiphar's wife tempted him? How can I do this great sin against Potiphar? No, against God. To him, that was the connection that was most important, and I think as I say, hey look, how can I do this against God?

How can I do this and still say I fear God? As I keep that question in mind, I found that wisdom is applied. So as I've interacted sometimes with a woman at church, and I felt like, you know what, I should have been a little more wise.

Maybe I should have brought another elder in to talk with me, even though she said it was private. I should have probably, even from a perception standpoint, I should have done that. I judge myself on that based on the fear of the Lord.

Lord, I fear you. I reverence your name. You must be treated as holy. I don't care if she said it was private or not, but this is another fellow elder with me. And it is for my protection and for lifting up the name of Jesus and his holiness that I say, look, if you can't trust him, I don't know how you can trust me.

We are both elders. And I don't make this a rule, but can you tell my wife and I? And so I'm still learning to kind of do that right, so that's kind of my present answer to it. Speak to the person of the opposite sex, where there's no doubt in the other person's mind that you fear God.

That's a helpful answer for me, at least. And so that's what I give you. Here's the other question. Hello, brother. Thanks for bringing Yahweh's words to us. Two born-again believers previously dating as unbelievers got married.

The female for money and male for British passport eventually broke up and got divorced. By mutual consent, both have since repented and are living for Jesus. Is either allowed to marry another disciple of Jesus?

They are not willing to live as man and wife, I guess because of their past. Could you share Yahweh's heart on this matter? I want to answer a black and white question as it relates to this too. I have a question, as I read this, and I don't know who this is, so I'm not trying to criticize anybody because I don't know who it is.

But I was struck by the person's use of the word Yahweh. And I want to make a black and white question also about that. I want to ask you a quiz question. How many times did Jesus call God Yahweh? I'm talking from the Bible.

Zero. He always called God Father. Always. 100 times out of 100, except one. When he was on the cross and he said, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani. I think in Aramaic.

And it's from Psalm 22 where he says El, which is God. But if you look at the track record of how many times Jesus called God Yahweh, it's zero. He also spoke Aramaic, he didn't even speak Hebrew, so I don't know what the word is in there.

But to me, I'm just using that to say, I just feel like, from my own standpoint, I feel like we should be very careful to not get swayed by what to me can be a religious idea of what sounds right. Yahweh is the name for Lord in the Hebrew.

But my example is not the Old Testament, and how they call God Jehovah. It's immaterial to me. You can call my dad Zach Poonen all you want. I'm never calling him Zach Poonen. What do you think I'm calling him?

Mr. Poonen, come here. My dad will look at me like, what? You? Calling me what? Mr. Poonen, what's wrong with you? It's my dad. God, Jesus called God Father, and he called him Abba Father. And the one time he was on the cross, which we never will go through, where God separated himself from Jesus, he said El.

We don't have to ever deal with that, where God separates himself from us, because we always have the blood of Jesus to cover us and cleanse us. So we can always call God Father and Abba Father, which is Dad or Father.

So to me, this is just from a black and white, I feel for me it's a little bit clearer on that. To whoever wrote this question, or anybody else in this particular issue, call God your father. He's your father.

Call him that. Call God Dad. Practice it. Treat him like he's your dad. Make it personal. Just remember, Jesus treated God much more reverentially than you ever did, than none of us ever did. All of us put together, Jesus is more reverential towards God, but yet God, Jesus always called him Dad and Father.

So it's not a disrespect to God if we call him Father. We can still live our lives in holy fear, 1 Peter 1 .17. In terms of divorce and remarriage, we've had to deal with divorce and remarriage in America.

It's becoming very common. There are members in our church that are also divorced and remarried. The guidance that I've gotten from my teacher, which is my dad, on this issue of divorce and remarriages, it's a very tricky issue, and each situation must be taken individually with the church that they are going to.

So if somebody comes to me for counsel, I'll definitely tell you this for myself, maybe your teacher may have more point of view on that, like my dad may be able to speak more, I don't know. I have a feeling he won't.

But if they come to me, I say, look, which church do you go to? Deal with the elders of your church, because that's your family. If you have family problems and it's another person's family, I don't want to get telling you to do something, because I respect the submission that you're supposed to have towards your elders.

And so if you're saying you're going to First Baptist down the road, well, go and submit to those elders. Now, if you want to come and submit to us, me and my other two elders, Bobby and Jeremy, let's talk about it, get to know us, get to really see us, and we can talk more about it.

But to me, submission is very important. So me, if they're not submitted to me, I say, look, somebody really needs to dig into your case, understand, ask maybe a lot of tough questions, ask a lot of personal questions, because this is marriage and all kinds of tricky things associated with it, and then come up with a good answer.

The one thing that I wanted to point out, though, is they are not willing to live as man and wife, I guess, because of their past. That word, I am not willing to, was the phrase that also struck me. And I just want to caution us.

Surrendering Personal Preferences to God's Call

We may not be dealing with this. But ask yourself about that phrase if it ever comes. I'm not willing to. Why? Why are you not willing to do anything for Jesus? I'm not willing to go to China. I'm not saying you've got to go to China.

I'm just asking, when you say, I am not willing to go to China, what if Jesus wants you to go to China? If it's because you're disobeying a verse in scripture, that's fine. That's not indicated here, but if that's the reason, that's fine.

But, I'm sorry, I'm not willing to move out of San Francisco. That's a very dangerous statement for me to make. Now, if I'm convinced that the Lord has called me to San Francisco, that's the caveat, so to speak.

I'm not willing to go anywhere the Lord hasn't called me to, and as far as I can tell, God's called me there. But I'll tell you this before God. I'll sell my house and move in a heartbeat if God calls me elsewhere.

I would love to get a call from the Lord saying, I want you to go and become a full-time worker of mine. I'll pay you. That's what, when somebody hires you, that's what they tell you. I want you to come work for me and I'll pay you.

Don't go and tell anybody else for money. Don't go and ask anybody else for money. I got you. I'll pay you. I'd love to do that. God hasn't called me for that. It's okay. God calls certain people. I'd love to get that.

If God calls me and says, I'm going to pay you. You don't need to ask anybody for money. I'll take care of all your bills. Now go to Malaysia. Malaysia, here I come. I'll say, Lord, just also wake up my wife and tell her that too because it'll be hard for me to convince her maybe sometimes.

You're a big enough God. You can speak to her in a dream, whatever it is. But by God's grace, thankfully I have a wife who also seeks to do God's will. If God's really calling me to go to Malaysia, we're going.

I will not say, I will not go to Malaysia. Is God's people there? Are people who Jesus died in Malaysia? I think so. Last time I checked. Who's going to send the message to them? So I just want to say, I mean, it's obviously a different context, but just for our own benefit, these are all things that people are not under our submission.

I don't need to worry about. But to the extent that that phrase comes into your mind, I would caution you with that. In a particular area, I will not go back to India. Why not? Why not? I'll go anywhere.

Lord Jesus, I'm yours. I gave up full rights over my life. Everything is yours. That's a good spirit of, you know, Abraham killed the promised son. Sure. You know that spot? Mount Moriah is the spot on which God said, I want to build my temple on that spot, on that utter sacrifice of God.

We'll do anything for you. The same spot was where David in 2 Samuel 24 was, there was a plague and he said, I will not give the Lord something that doesn't cost me something. I won't accept this for free.

I got to pay for it. Because I don't want to give the Lord something that doesn't cost me something. It's a good attitude of sacrifice. To me, I'm not willing to. I just have to ask. If that phrase comes into your mind in any area, ask yourself, well, if the Lord's calling me, will I go?

And so then I would not say, I'm not willing to. I'm not willing to sin. No, I'm not willing to sin. That's the one thing I'm not willing to do. All else, Lord, I'll go anywhere. I'll do anything for you.

In terms of the divorce issue, A, I definitely don't have the wisdom to answer it. But B, I think the Lord gives wisdom and faith with the wisdom for the particular need when I present to myself. I need to know that they submit to me.

I need to know that they are under my counsel. And then I need to know a lot more details about them. It seems like a tough situation. It seems like a hard situation. Any other questions or comments?

The Names of God and the Scope of Christian Ministry

Sure. I mean, I have two questions, Sandeep. It would be good if you can answer those. I mean, it's related to what you were just answering. One is, I think the question about this Yahweh, I think there's one line of teaching where they somehow encourage you to use the exact terms that are used in the original Aramaic Hebrew stuff.

So they use Yahweh and they use Yahshua for Jesus. So for me, it didn't matter if I called Jesus the wrong way and I eventually discover it's different than how Jesus would have been pronounced. To me, it didn't matter.

But I think there's one line of teaching that is going. I mean, it's possible that some of us are being exposed to that teaching. So I'd like you to comment on that. That's one. The other thing I want you to comment on is you had spoken a few things while we were talking during lunch break.

See, you have been gifted to speak to thousands, right? You have that gifting. Now, why are you restricting yourself to a small little group? You have been given to the Church of God. So you have to be a blessing to many.

So what if they come to belong to another church? They have been helped in a bigger context. So I want you to tell us why you are now, in a sense, being narrow-minded.

Yeah, yeah, sure. So let me answer that in order, I guess. I don't care. You know, honestly, I'll tell you how I am. You can call me Sandeep. You can call me Kirthi. You can call me Ravi. You can call me Jeffrey.

It doesn't matter what you call me. I want to know, do you love me? Do you respect me? Can we be friends? Can we just have love for another? Call me whatever you want. Honestly, my name's Indian name.

The Americans butcher it anyways. I've stopped caring. They get some version of it. That's my opinion. And so, it's just not the God I know. The God I know is just not that, who's picky about that kind of stuff.

I'm not picky like that. I'm able to see deeper than that. I'm able to see the heart. And so to me, I would say, if it really bothers you, call Him Yeshua. Call God Yahweh. I'm not anti it. Just be careful of the religiosity that can be associated with it.

Just call Him Yeshua. Call God Yahweh, but know Him as a Father. Because the theology is, God is your Father. If I call my dad, Zach Poonen or Mr. Poonen, but I treat him like a loving father that he is, while my other brothers call him dad, but treat him like a faraway person, I'm better off.

I will give you that. So if you're going to call God Yahweh, but you are going to exemplify the daddy-child relationship more than anybody in this church, go right ahead. I just think that it's conflicting messages.

It's highlighting the reverence for God. I prefer to highlight, like Jesus, the intimacy of God. Not that both don't hold water. I like Jesus, and Jesus is my guide. I just, as I said, Jesus called God dad, Abba.

I don't know what the Hebrew, Greek word or Aramaic word for father is. It's definitely not Yahweh. That I know. But whatever the... It's also interesting, just as a side note, that Jesus didn't speak Hebrew, as far as I understand.

He spoke Aramaic. Two different languages. So he... I don't know whether the same word was the same for all this stuff, but the way he quoted scripture, he didn't quote the Hebrew. He quoted the Aramaic.

Because that's the language that they spoke at that time. But it's really technical. Bottom line is, make God your father. Blow that up. Blow that up. Let me end by showing you this verse in John 5, verse 18.

I consider God being our father so sacred. And let me tell you why. John 5, verse 18. John 5, verse 18 is a... In fact, John 5, 18, 19, 20. I was about to speak on 19 and 20 actually in the last session, but then I just thought, look this...

I could go on and on. John 5, 18, 19, 20 is what I was going to speak on. But let me speak on John 5, 18. Just that verse where it says, For this cause they were seeking the Moor to kill him. What was it about Jesus that made the Jews so furious that they wanted to kill him?

Just read. Two things. He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but was calling God his own father. They killed my lord because he called God father. They killed your lord, your bridegroom, the head of your body.

They killed him because he called God father. It was a big deal. And God, Jesus never backed down. Never backed down. Because it was a big deal to him. But they killed my Jesus for that. I can weep when I see the passion of the Christ.

Here's the reason why they killed him. Because they called God father. That's a very important message. And the Sabbath speaks to breaking religious traditions. They killed him because he was breaking with religious traditions, the Sabbath.

They'll kill you for that too. And so those are the two truths that to me, personal relationship with God as a father and building the church, not the old covenant way of life, but the church as a family of God, they'll kill you for it.

And I find that to be true about Jesus and I find that to be true today in some kind of way or form. Criticism, streams of thought, or whatever. I don't want to get technical, but bottom line is they killed my Lord for it.

It's a big deal to me. This is my savior. This is the one who died for me. They killed him because he called God father. It must have been very important. The fact, if it was just something that they were stumbling over, Jesus could have changed.

Oh, sorry, I didn't want to offend you. No, he was intentional. I'm calling God my father. God and I are one. I only do what the father shows me doing. So that's the answer to the first one. Maybe I disagree with that stream of thought from this verse, I'd say.

The other question was about speaking to thousands. I'm not rejecting speaking to thousands. If thousands ask me to speak, I'll go speak to them. I've got no problem speaking to them. Unfortunately, nobody's calling me.

Thousands are not calling me. That's the reason I'm not going. I'm not that popular. Not as popular as you guys may think I am. That's the biggest reason I'm not going. Nobody's calling me. If millions call me, I'll go preach to them.

If the Ayatollah of Iran calls me to go, I'll go speak in Iran. No problem. But he knows what I'm going to speak about. I'm not going to be talking about Allah in his mosque or anywhere. There'll be a condition.

I'm going to come to speak in your mosque. I'll speak anywhere in the world. You know what I'm going to speak on? I'm going to speak about Jesus Christ. You can call him prophet. I'm going to call him something different.

You can find out if you want. You can have your stones ready if you want. It doesn't matter. I'm speaking on what I'm going to speak on, but I'll speak anywhere, to anybody, any group of people. So it's not about whether I reject thousands or not.

That definitely is not the case. I'm not against speaking to big, big numbers. In fact, I think it's a wonderful opportunity. It's just the question to me is not about what I will or will not do. I would definitely speak to as many people as I can.

Building a Church Centered on Fellowship with the Father and Son

The question is what am I going to focus on? What am I going to labor on? So first of all, thousands are not calling me, so I don't even have to engage with it. But to me, I'm interested in building families.

The church, to me, from everything you've heard about me, you've heard how important God as a father is to me, and you know how important the church is to me, hopefully by now. And the church is such a big deal, and the church is two or three who are in fellowship with the Father and the Son, getting to be in fellowship with each other.

That's what the church is. Or more. Could be 5 ,000, like it was on the day of Pentecost. 3 ,000 were added. And then another time, 5 ,000 were added. This is the New Testament church. So I'm not anti-numbers.

It's just that they have to be wholly devoted to Jesus, fellowship with the Father and the Son. That's 1 John 1 .3. This is what we've heard and seen. We testify to you that you may have fellowship with us, and the fellowship you can have with us is the fellowship we have with the Father and the Son.

So that's what I think the church is. I have fellowship with the Father and the Son. You have fellowship with the Father and the Son, and we become one. We have that same fellowship. And then the two becomes three and four and five, man, woman, doesn't matter.

It's that. I just find from every evidence in Scripture that thousands start to follow Jesus and then drop away to where 12 are left. John 6, Jesus talked a hard sermon about eating my flesh and drinking my blood.

Many deserted him. John 8, Jesus talked about if you obey my commands and follow after me, then you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. And many stopped following him. You find that Jesus, as he continued to speak about his whole counsel of God, people were not added, people dropped off.

Now you take the day of Pentecost. 3 ,000 were added, 5 ,000 were added. These were explosive entries into them. But then you look at the transitions of the churches. By the time you come to Paul, one of the greatest men of God, maybe the greatest man of God that we know besides Jesus, up there definitely, speaking on such incredible truths, gifted with incredible miracles, you find at the end of his life, 2 Timothy, that everybody's deserting him.

Demas is left to follow the world. Everybody who was in Asia has deserted me. I've got Timothy, I've got Titus, I've got, please Mark, he can be useful to us. This guy who was too afraid to go on a journey, now he's useful to us because that's all Paul had.

And he's got Luke, the doctor, and a few others. And you find that even Paul in Philippians says, I don't have anybody like Timothy. That's all he got. Amazing man of God, Paul, could only find one man.

So I find that in the true labors, and then you look at Revelation, the church in Ephesus that was started by Paul, and Paul taught for three years. 20, 30, whatever years later, Jesus is saying you've lost your first love.

You've fallen, you've gone backwards. So I see this progression of, it's not that I'm anti-numbers, it's just that the pure church that Jesus says in Revelation chapter 2, look, I think he says that, that I'll take your lampstand, does he say that?

About that church. Yeah, I will remove your lampstand. This is the church of Ephesus. You know all that they did. I know your deeds and your toil and your perseverance, and you cannot endure evil men.

You don't like all these apostles who are not true apostles. You find them to be false, so you're against all the false teachers. And you have perseverance, and you've endured probably persecution, and you've not grown weary.

What an amazing church. But you know what? You've lost your first love. You've fallen. You don't repent. I'm going to yank you out. I'm going to take away you as a church altogether. What an incredible indictment in such a persevering, faithful church in so many ways, but lost its love.

The first fervent love. That's why I said earlier, the first sign of deception is losing your simple, pure devotion to Jesus. You've already been deceived. You might believe the greatest doctrines in the world, but you're just as deceived as somebody else.

And Jesus says, you lost your first love, that simple, pure devotion. Better be careful, because I'm coming and will remove your lampstand out of its place unless you repent. So to me, I want to build a true church.

Testing Christian Work by the Judgment of God

I remember my dad, when we talk about different ministries or different kind of ways of doing things, my dad has said something, you know, I don't mind waiting till the judgment day. He talks about 1 Corinthians 3, that all of a man's work is going to pass through the fire.

And some person's work will be hay and wood and straw, and other person's work will be gold and precious stones. And my dad has said, I don't mind waiting till that day to see whose work lasted and whose work doesn't.

But I want my work to last. And I just don't see evidences of the thousands and the thousands growing up to become men of God, women of God, strong, rock solid like an oak tree for the Lord. That's what I want.

That's what I want from myself. That's what I want from the churches. And that only comes if they hate sin, if they fear God with all of their heart, they love God with all of their hearts, and they obey all that God commanded, and get to know his promises and commands.

Such a man who's fully devoted, such a woman who's fully devoted, will be like an oak tree planted by the river, whose leaves will always be green. All that stuff will happen, but it's hard work. And better men like Paul found it really difficult to find thousands, let alone hundreds.

I don't get the impression reading Paul that he had hundreds of people just loving him. Hundreds of people may have been in his churches, Ephesus, all of that. But he looked at them and said, I only have a few.

In Philippians time it was only Timothy. I have nobody else I can send to you who really cares for you. Such a small, select few. So to me, I just keep trying to demonstrate through my own life the devotion that we ought to have for Christ, and the unity that we ought to have in the church, and then wait to see what happens.

And my business is to make sure that I try to do that in the Bay Area. I am not going to turn down 10 ,000 people who come to our church. But I'll tell you what'll happen. We have a huge sword that, I don't know, if you come to our church you'll see it.

You guys may not get cut by it, but there's a huge chopping guillotine that is in our church. It's keeping on swinging. And the first week you have, if you escape the guillotine the first two weeks, I'm really surprised.

And you know what it's called? Women covering their heads. Most Americans just get chopped off, and they never come back. You see the blood and you're like, okay, there they go. They don't know what to do with it.

So it's a wonderful guillotine that we have. If you get through the two weeks, I'm looking at you saying, did you notice the women covering their heads, or did you miss it? Should I point it out to you?

Because I want to know how you escaped the guillotine. How did you miss that chopping blade? Once you get past that, then I'll say, okay, let's see some of the other things. And honestly, covering women's heads is such a small, we never preach on it.

Never. We preached on it years ago. We studied it. We're done with it. People want to know what we believe about it. It's in the document. That's it. We've never preached on it since then. But people, we practice it.

And people see it. And visitors see it. And people ask themselves, what are they going to do about it? But it's a wonderful chop. Most people get away. So unfortunately, and this is the story, when we were beginning to be a church, I did not believe in women's head covering to be the theology I believed in.

I thought I could see it both ways, honestly. This is 2010. But when the question was posed to me, what does God's word say about head covering, I had honestly never studied it. And I had read a study by John Piper, who some of you may know is a Baptist preacher in America.

And he had done a teaching on head covering, and he edited a book on that. And so I read that, and I said, sounds good to me. Because it supported my point of view that you can do whatever you want. But whenever I tried to explain what his point of view was, I never could.

I just said, go read the document yourself. I think it sounds good. But as I realized that I had to be a teacher in the church, in NCCF, I realized I have to have a point of view. And I need to be able to explain it, even if it's John Piper's.

I need to be able to explain it for myself. As I studied it, and I studied the word, I just found so many holes with what he was saying. And so the three elders decided to study it each separately. And all of us, it's the first big decision that us elders made together, the three of us.

And they're two Caucasians, by the way. They didn't grow up in any of that culture. But when we came together, we decided to take a month or two just to study it individually and not talk about it. When we came back together, there was not a minute of disagreement.

We had all come to the exact same conclusion independently. And we've had many disagreements about many other issues, but not that. And that was a remarkable work from God. And I knew I was the hardest one to convince among the three of them.