December 22, 2025 Show with George Jensen & Jill Kilker on “Options for Churches & Christian Parents to Educate Our Children”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.

It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 22nd day of December 2025.

Before I introduce my guests and my topic for today, I have a praise report. I want to not only thank God first and foremost, but I want to also thank the fine folks at heartsforthelost .com for becoming a new annual sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I just heard from Brian Nindi—I hope I'm not mispronouncing his last name—several days ago, out of the blue, as it were, by God's providence, and he had informed me that we had met several years ago at a G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, and he and his colleagues at Hearts for the Lost wanted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And that was truly an answer to prayer, an answer to fervent prayer, and especially since it seemed to float down from heaven itself. And so you'll begin to hear their commercials shortly, God willing, for heartsforthelost .com.

And the check is already in the mail, as they say. So we are so delighted to welcome heartsforthelost .com to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio family of sponsors. Today, I'm absolutely thrilled to have not only a returning guest to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, but also a first-time guest who both serve in the same congregation.

The first guest that I am thrilled to welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio has become a very dear friend of mine. I am so delighted and thankful to our Lord that in his providence he guided our steps and our paths to cross.

And not long after I moved to Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and relaunched Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here after relocating from New York, I was pleased to become acquainted and now enjoying the friendship of George Jensen, who is pastor of the Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania.

He describes himself as a plain-tea Arminian and me as a black-coffee Calvinist. So it's a joy to have this brother back on the program. Welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor George Jensen.

Thank you, Chris. I'm thrilled to be here.

And we have joining George a first-time guest, Jill Kilker, and she is director of Children and Youth Ministries at Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania. She is also an expert on homeschooling law in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

And both Jill and George will be addressing options for churches and Christian parents to educate our children. And it's wonderful to have you here for the very first time on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Jill Kilker.

Thank you.

It's wonderful to be here.

And, Pastor George, if you could, please give a brief description of the Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania.

Well, Enola First Church of God was founded in 1907 through what is now the Churches of God General Conference, a Bible-believing evangelical denomination that comes out of the Second Great Awakening.

The movement was started right across the river in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and has spread across the country ever since. We are the non-Pentecostal, I guess you'd say, and original Church of God denomination through our founder, Reverend John Weinbrenner.

Yeah. That church that's right near the Harrisburg Amtrak, doesn't that have some kind of historic significance, that building?

Yes, sir. That was originally Salem German Reformed Church, which is now Salem United Church of Christ, of course. And, yes, John Weinbrenner was sent to preach there in the early 1800s, I believe it was.

And, well, he was just a little bit too evangelistic and on fire for the Lord for the, I guess you'd say, at that time, for other matters that he put forth. The congregation wasn't ready for that at that time, let's just say so.

Well, I'm sure that the folks at the United Church of Christ would be no more ready for an evangelistic sermon. Although it would be wonderful for them to hear one, because that denomination, sadly, has far departed from the Scriptures.

Although there are a remnant of true believers still there, and I have even met a couple of pastors who are in that denomination that are biblically faithful, and the ones that I've met are praying for the right time to exit that denomination.

And I'm sure I'll be hearing back from them when that happens. But today we are going to be talking about opportunities for education for Christian parents that you folks are providing. And perhaps you could tell us, Pastor George, you could start off by telling us, before we go into Jill's testimony of salvation, perhaps you could give us the framework of what you are doing there in the realm of education.

Sure.

To be fair, this is a work in progress. The micro school, if you will, the homeschool micro school that we're looking to establish, and Jill will talk about that too, is not a reality yet. We are very hopeful it will be this fall, but that's all up to God and His sovereign providence, of course.

But where this originated was we were praying as a congregation to see where the Lord was leading us to put a special emphasis in our ministry and our direction. And the congregation sensed that there were three areas after a time of prayer and fasting and conversation.

And one was to enhance our security, of course, because every church is concerned about that now, meaning whenever there are public events in the building, what we do about that to make sure the people are safe.

The second is we do a lot of fellowship events and even some outreach events that involve fellowship in our Fellowship Ball and Kitchen. So perhaps sprucing up, remodeling the kitchen, that's something we are talking about as well and working on.

And the third is an educational alternative for Christian families. What would that look like? And what we settled on was to start a Christian, make sure I get this right, homeschool microschool, and with anywhere from up to, you know, just a handful up to 25 students max because of our building and because of the, just we feel that that's what God is leading us to be, a small movement, a small school.

And it would be for homeschool students and homeschool families, because as you'll find out from Jill, her passion in seeing young people discipled and educated in the Lord is the homeschool movement.

She is a homeschool parent. She homeschooled both of her children, Elena and Luke, and that was a very successful endeavor for Jill and her husband, Joe, to do this. And so how can we do this in a way that would be helpful to parents?

Because Jill is, and I had heard too, that parents don't know where to begin, what to.

Do.

So we're hoping that we will have an educational model that does some instruction at the church for the children, but the bulk of the instruction would be on the parents, their homeschool.

Parents.

They need to, you know, make sure that everything, that they submit all the paperwork and everything, but also to equip those parents to know how to homeschool those, their children. So that's what we're looking at, Chris.

That's where the origin of this movement came from, and it is a work in progress.

Great. And if anybody listening has questions of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and country of residence.

But Jill, as I said before, since you're a first-time guest, we have a tradition here whenever we have a first-time guest on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, that those guests give a summary of their salvation testimony that would include the religious atmosphere in which they were raised, if any, and the kinds of providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them.

And we would love to hear your story. Sure.

Well, I don't have a dramatic, earth-shattering story, but I do have a life-changing story, as every testimony is when someone fully surrenders their lives to Christ. I was raised in the church. My mother saw that we were in church every Sunday and Sunday school.

My father worked at the post office nights, so he did not attend church with us. My mother had a—my mother was very shy, and she had a very quiet face, but it was a strong face. And I often saw her reading the Bible.

Actually, I would see her reading the Bible every day, and I knew that she spent quiet time with the Lord. Growing up, I always was in church, and I felt the love of a church family, and I loved all of them.

And I had this desire to learn everything I could about the Lord, and this was before I was really in a—walking closely, surrendered my life to him. I was very interested in learning about him. I had so much interest.

I would see signs for Vacation Bible School around the community, and I would plead with my parents to see that I could go there. And so there was a part of me, I think, that was always hungry for the Word of God.

And I really wanted to be a good girl. I wanted to follow what God wanted me to do. And that was very important to me. But I also was shy, and I lacked confidence, didn't really want to be seen. In fact, as a little girl, I grew my bangs over my eyes so that I didn't have to look at people or interact.

And Pastor Jensen is probably laughing because that is not the person that I am today by any means. But I really thought, you know, I was on a path. One weekend when I was a younger teenager, I don't remember exactly the age, maybe eighth, ninth grade, our church had kind of a teen revival weekend, kind of like a retreat.

And one of the activities that we did, and I'm sure lots of groups have done this, but one of the activities we did was the leader asked us to write what was really standing between our relationship with the Lord on a piece of paper, anything that we wanted, any sin that was keeping us from a relationship.

And I really thought that everything was fine, but as I started to realize that, I think it dawned on me that really what was standing between me and God was my need to be the good girl and do things on my own efforts and make that happen for myself and not trust what God had already done for me.

And so we were to write this on the paper and nail it to a wooden cross that they had. And that was really the pivotal moment in my life when I realized that my own efforts were not what would put me in a right relationship with God, but that it was what He had done for me on the cross.

And I think that's when I truly surrendered my life and made a decision to walk with Jesus all of the days of my life. And so it was really the symbolic nailing it to the cross and not in Jill's efforts, but in God's love for me.

And so there was nothing, you know, major that shifted in terms of my behavior, my habits,.

But my heart shifted that day. Yes, definitely. How old were you?

I think I was probably like 8th or 9th grade, so 14, maybe. And I really grew up in a loving church that allowed me basically, you know, the bangs were cut out of my eyes and not radically at that time, but they allowed me as a young person to start teaching Sunday school, be involved in vacation Bible school.

I even came up with an idea to do children's musicals, and they allowed me to take that on as a teen and supported me in that. So that was really kind of the beginning of God growing me into really what has led me to what I'm doing today.

Well, hallelujah. And when did you become aware of the homeschool movement and what was so compelling and intriguing about it to you?

Well, that's an interesting question because in my lack of knowledge, I was very against homeschooling initially.

Yeah. Yeah.

I always knew that I wanted to work with children. From those early days after I really committed my life to the Lord, I was serving in my church. And I knew I had gifts and talents that God had given me those to teach and to share with young people.

And so I went to college to become a teacher and I got my bachelor's degree in elementary education and I took a job in a public school, a couple of public schools, and I taught for almost a decade. While I was teaching in public schools, I didn't really, again, it was lacking knowledge, but I used to kind of make fun of the people who kept their kids at home and homeschooled.

Them.

And because I really thought, you know, that wasn't really even a feasible option. And I remember even when I married my husband, I told him that I loved, I knew I would love the children that we had someday, but if he ever thought I was going to be a stay-at-home mom, that he was crazy because I was not going to waste my life.

And we laugh about that now, but those were the words that I would waste my life raising children. And when I had my daughter after, you know, teaching for a decade, really career-focused in my 20s, going to graduate school, doing mission work overseas, I had this baby.

And even though I had the main income, I wanted to be her mom. And I cried every day going to school to teach, having to leave her. And I realized that I had spent 10 years seeing children who were a result of parents who didn't have time for them.

And I didn't want that to be my child. So I finished that school year, and I didn't really even have a way to do it financially. My husband and I didn't, but I resigned and became a full-time mom, a part-time house parent at a private school with my husband on the weekends to make ends meet, but something that we could take our children with us.

It seemed like when it was time for my daughter to go to kindergarten, the school district we lived in had gone to full-day kindergarten. And I was not thrilled developmentally sending a five-year-old to a full-day program.

It's just a concern that I have with the maturity, the development of a five-year-old. And so because of my job at the residential school, I decided for kindergarten I was just going to do this homeschool thing.

And it was the only kindergarten, so I could handle it. And so that she wouldn't get home late on a Sunday night from our job and then have to get on the bus Monday morning. And kindergarten turned into first grade, and first grade turned into second grade, and a brother came along in kindergarten.

And so it just kind of, it wasn't out of necessarily disillusion with the public school system at that time, although I did have some, lots actually. But it was really just something that I realized teaching was my passion.

Then I had children, and they were my passion. And homeschooling was a merging of both my passions that God had, burdens that God had put in my heart.

Mark Devereux. Praise God. And we're going to continue where you left off there when we come back from our first commercial break. And once again, if you have questions for our guests today, Pastor George Jensen and Jill Kilker about homeschooling, about education alternatives for your children, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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We are talking about options for parents in the education of their children. And before I go to you again, Pastor George, I wanted Jill to perhaps highlight some things that she was witnessing in the public school movement as a teacher that were making you increasingly more uncomfortable to remain there.

And I know that not every public school is identical. There are some out there in our nation, different parts of our country, that are far less horrifying to the Christian parent than many others are, and they're not as overt in teaching sheer and utter evil as some are.

But tell us about what you were experiencing.

Sure. I will just start by saying that I had many Christian friends in the public school who were sharing the love of Christ with students. However, yeah, now I will preface this by saying I resigned in August of 2001.

My daughter is 25, so there has been a huge cultural shift since I have left the public school. But I, you know, did work with some really great people. I had admittedly a lot of power in my role as a third and fourth grade teacher to kind of go in the back door to show the love of Christ and to share my faith in not so obvious ways.

And that was very exciting for me as a Christian, but that is also very scary when you consider, as a teacher, the influence that I had for good, the influence that many other teachers could have for, as you said, for evil.

So that is one major thing that I noticed that, you know, teachers do. Children spend more time in school with teachers and have more hours, just long, more hours than they do with their parents. So I had a lot of influence as a teacher.

I also noticed that it was very much in the age of really as we were coming upon inclusion. I did my master's thesis in the 90s on the inclusion movement of accepting all children in the classroom. And that kind of ebbs and flows as we go through with kind of what's going on in special education.

My master's degree is in special education. And I was finding that I was being required to tolerate lots of behaviors from children with, say, behavior disorders, and that many of the other students were suffering because of that, the influence of their peers, just things in the classroom.

And really just separation from the parents. Children just didn't get that much time to be with their parents. And that was obvious that their individual needs weren't being met there. Again, I enjoyed my time in public school, and I felt like I was able to make a positive impact.

But I wanted to pour into my own child, and I knew if I sent her away all day, I would not be the major influence in her life.

A Christian Alternative to Public Schooling

Okay, Pastor George Jensen, what was it that rose to the surface amongst your duties as an undershepherd over there at Enola First Church of God that brought to your mind. There's something that needs to be added to the efforts of parents homeschooling that might require something like a homeschool micro school?

And how did that all come about?

Well, beyond the praying through what God's vision may be for us, as I explained earlier, regarding this component, the educational component, Chris, for me personally, I'll start with myself personally, and then our church leadership, my three daughters, we adopted them out of the foster care system.

My wife and I did in 2004, and they were a sibling group that came, as I said, out of the foster care system. At the time, they were 12, 8, and 4 years old. And because they first came to us as foster children, we were pretty much required to send them to our local public school, which they were great.

The public school was very good, understanding their needs. Certainly, they didn't preach the gospel or teach them values strictly out of God's word. We understand that, but they were good folks. But I noticed as time went on, things started to change from 2004, certainly up until their graduation times, respectively.

And it was really too late to move them either to a Christian school or a homeschool movement. I still question if we should have, but that's water under the bridge at this point. So they were public school only because for so long they were sent there, and they made their friends there, and it was doing well for them for a while.

But we saw some changes, and it just seemed like so much had to be done to kind of reprogram, because you become a disciple of whoever is discipling you. And if it's the public school, you have the risk, depending on what they're teaching there, that the disciples of Caesar become like Caesar, if you will.

So seeing that and also hearing of other success stories of homeschool students, at least in the modern sense, I changed my mind on it. I originally was leery of homeschool students and the homeschool movement, Chris, only because my only exposure to it was from the whole Bill Gothard era, which we understand was problematic in terms of what was happening with that model.

And that's what I thought it was all about. But obviously, frankly, Jill, through her family and showing us there's a much better way to homeschool in a godly and an efficient way, this is something that's pretty good.

So in talking with our church leadership, we believe that we need to do something or at least try to start something so that we can build good disciples of Jesus Christ first and foremost through an educational program that has quality academics and will prepare them for life, yes.

But secondly, yes, I will admit that it would be an alternative for those that are dissatisfied with their particular public school. And we are not large enough in the church of our size. We are a worshiping community between the two services is about 150 persons.

You know, we're not a large church. Our facilities are certainly not large. What could we do? We did think that a micro school, maximum of 25 students, we may be able to do that. And we're hoping if other churches opt to do that, if every church could do that, wow, what an amazing impact that would be in the church of Jesus Christ for our students, for our kids.

Now, what exactly are the nuts and bolts involved in what you are envisioning to start there at Enola First Church of God? And I'll start with you, George, you can continue your train of thought there and then.

Jill can jump in at any time.

Well, the nuts and bolts was first of all, to come up with the model that we have decided on the homeschool hybrid model. The work that we're going to do is not a private school. We need to emphasize that it is a supplemental program for parents to educate their children.

And as I believe I said earlier, they would be here two days a week receiving instruction three days from the parents. Those two days they're here, the parents, usually the mom, but it could be the father, of course, would have time to do what they need to do, go to work, whatever.

And also the other thing that we came up with, too, Chris, the nuts and bolts was Jill says Jill gets a lot of questions. Jill is also a homeschool evaluator. OK, and she can talk more about what that is.

She gets a lot of questions from parents. How do I do this? How does this even begin? So one thing that got me impressed on our part, on our hearts, if you will, is to help parents do that. We came up with an acronym HOPE, H-O-P-E, for Helping Our Parents Educate.

And how can we do that to help parents educate their children? So the nuts and bolts was to establish that's the model that God's calling us to do. Not a Christian school, not a large school, not even a small private school.

But this this hybrid model where homeschool students are aided and the parents are aided in the educational process. Then the nuts and bolts go, of course, were, you know, how do you do this? I want to give a big shout out to the Herzog Foundation that many in your audience may be aware of.

This is a wonderful organization that gives free educational training to anybody that either is running a Christian school, a homeschool hybrid, like we are any kind of Christian education. It's very broad.

And we have used a lot of their information and starting up in terms of our documents and, you know, Constitution, different things like that. The other thing that we had to do, of course, was go and get the blessing of our church leadership, which was no problem, of course.

And then, you know, having a church and having a Sunday school and junior church, we know where is the school going to meet? Where is this going to happen? Where is that going to happen? Another major nuts and bolts thing that I would recommend everybody look into.

We talked to our local township to make sure that we were zoned for that because not everybody may be happy about what we're doing. And, you know, if we weren't in the right zone and couldn't do this.

And furthermore, we don't want to do what dishonors God by trying to fly under the radar with the law. But we did talk to our local township and they said, yes, you're zoned for this. And the guys that came out here and came to us, they were encouraged by what we're doing.

So lots of little nuts and bolts like that, some alterations we're going to have to do to the building, minor things. And that's where we're at. But there's many other things to have to overcome at this point to nail down.

And we're moving along the journey with God.

And just so I understand it correctly, the homeschool micro school would be a way for children who are predominantly being educated by their parents or at least one parent in their own homes. But then they would be gathering with other homeschool children for certain areas of their education that would have a hub or a headquarters, if you will, in the church.

And I'm not sure if this would involve Zoom or would they physically be gathering in a room or area of the church building? Perhaps you can share a little bit about that. And maybe we'll have Jill jump in at this point.

Also, that's correct. It's physical. It's we don't anticipate using Zoom with the students, perhaps with parents. Maybe I don't know that yet, but yes, it would be they would be physically gathering here.