January 7, 2026 Show with Donald Philip Veitch on “The Anglo-Catholic Controversy: Is the Very Gospel At Stake?”

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this seventh day of January 2026.

And I am delighted to have a first -time guest today. My guest today happens to be a mutual friend of a very dear and precious late brother in Christ and personal friend of mine.

Many of you have heard him interviewed on this program, Roger Salter, who not long ago went home to be with our

Lord Jesus Christ, who he faithfully served for so many years as a biblically faithful Anglican minister in Alabama, although he was originally from Tasmania and later educated in London, England.

Roger was a resident of Alabama for quite a number of years and a rector of St.

Matthew's Anglican Church that was located in the

Birmingham area. But today we have a mutual friend of Roger and mine on the program,

Donald Phillip Veach, who is a Reformed Anglican, a Navy chaplain, and moderator of the

Twiss House page on Facebook. And Twiss House is named after William Twiss, a 17th century prominent

English clergyman and theologian, and we'll hear more about him from my guest

Donald. And that page is dedicated to the defense, promotion, and preservation of historic confessional

Anglicanism. Today we're going to be addressing a very controversial theme that will no doubt upset some.

The theme is the Anglo -Catholic controversy. Is the very gospel at stake in the rise of Anglicanism's Romish wing?

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Donald Phillip Veach.

Glad to be with you, Curtis. It's a joy to have you with us. Finally, we have been talking about an interview for years, and now finally that day has come.

I'm very thankful that you have made the time to be my guest today.

And I also want to thank you for being so diligent in promoting

Iron Trip and Zion Radio to the confessional Anglican community whenever a guest seems to deeply strike your interest.

And I see that you have done that quite often, and I'm honored and grateful for your promotion of this broadcast.

Glad to do it. Well, let me set the stage here for a moment.

I want to let everybody know, even though I've said this on my program before, one of the reasons

I have an affection for biblically faithful Anglicanism is because although I was raised

Roman Catholic before being born from above by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ and becoming a

Reformed Baptist, my father's side of the family was

Episcopalian, although unfortunately my dad converted to Catholicism when

I was about 17 years old, my mother having already been Roman Catholic and who was raised in Catholicism by Polish immigrant parents.

But knowing of my father's Episcopalian side of the family,

I began to, years ago, search for and investigate and study the solid biblically faithful remnant of Anglicanism that does exist, those that are theologically

Reformed, as I am, in spite of our differences on ecclesiology and on the issue of infant baptism and so on.

I had grown in my respect for, appreciation of, and admiration of biblically faithful Anglicanism and those that are ministers in that movement and those that are congregants in that movement and proponents of that movement.

I remember distinctly years ago when my uncle

Donald was still with us, before he passed away a number of years ago, he was contemplating being an

Episcopalian, he was contemplating converting to Roman Catholicism because of the downfall of the

Episcopal church into leftist apostasy. And my apprehension over his conversion to Roman Catholicism led me on a search to try to find a solid

Anglican church near him to see if the Lord would use me to stop him in his tracks.

Sadly, I was not successful in finding such a church, and he did convert to Roman Catholicism before his death.

But the subject, having said all that, is just one of great interest to me.

And Donald, as you know, on this program we have a tradition, whenever we have a first -time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include any kind of religious atmosphere in which they were raised, and what kind of providential circumstances our

Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them, and I would love to hear your story.

Sure. Donald, for some reason, unlike the very long conversation we had before the show started, your voice seems to disappear.

I'm not sure what's going on right now. Can you make sure that you're speaking directly into whatever recording device you have?

If it's your laptop, sit closely to it, what have you. Okay, I hope you can hear me.

My background is Reformed and Presbyterian. My father was an elder, teaching elder.

My grandfather was a ruling elder. And in 1921, my grandfather switched from Canadian Anglicanism, which had been in the family since 1808 in Canada, 1808 -1921, and then the

Reformed portion started. So I grew up around the Bible and in a

Reformed home, and I don't ever remember a conversion experience.

I do remember about when I was maybe six or seven, maybe, I was at home from church.

I was sick, and I was sitting in the basement, and I was reading the Bible. And just out of the blue,

I said, this is what I want. This is what I want. I want you, Jesus. So if that's a conversion or confirmation,

I view it as a confirmation. I grew up around the Bible with a father doing

Greek and Latin and Hebrew. He was trained in Canadian Presbyterianism.

In high school, he had five years of Greek, five years of Latin, five years of French.

And then, of course, he went on to seminary and studied Greek. And so I grew up around a dad who was constantly talking about the

Bible, and that was the ethos of the home. And I was going to be a chemical engineer, and then an undergraduate,

I started studying philosophy and fell in love with Augustine and wrote my undergrad honors thesis on Augustine, free will, predestination.

And from there, I went on to seminary and then on into the chaplaincy. So I do believe in adult conversions.

I don't believe in baptismal regeneration, although I believe it can happen.

Like John the Baptist, he was converted in his mother's womb. But I do not make the sacrament of baptism the handmaiden of the minister, but rather God controls the results.

Maybe converted in the womb and at the baptismal font, or like many in my ministry in the

Navy who, as adults, came to Christ by teaching the biblical faith.

Or like John Newton, who was converted long after being baptized as a

Church of England man. Or Charles Simeon, the same thing.

He was converted when he began at Cambridge. Anyways, so that's my little short testimony.

Again, emphasizing adults are converted through the teaching of the gospel.

Amen. Now, how did you come to discover— I mean, you already said that you had an ancestral connection with Anglicanism.

But how did you rediscover that, perhaps, and get drawn to it so much so that you embraced

Anglicanism as your own? Big question. I was in Westminster Seminary.

I was headed toward the OPC ministry, Orthodox Presbyterian.

Still love those people, by the way. But I knew—so I was finishing my 61 -hour degree.

I went to Villanova, got a 30 -hour master's in a

Roman Catholic school, kind of figuring out—and during that process, I wanted to finish my

MDiv. And Reformed Episcopal Seminary down at 42nd and Chestnut Street was a

Calvinistic Episcopal Seminary, no doubt, unquestionable. And I thought, well, you know,

I can go down there, finish the rest of my Master's of Divinity, and learn something about this ancestral

Anglican heritage. My dad told me that we had it, but I never knew why.

I didn't grow up with the prayer book. I was completely un -Anglican in that sense. And I went down there, loved the people, found the prayer book, and embraced it.

The Reformed Episcopal prayer book, that is. It had some eight or ten tweaks to it to cut out the

Romanizing germs from the 1789 prayer book. I fell in love with the people.

It still has some of those germs. We might get to those a little later. But I fell in love with them, and I was served with them as one of their ministers in the

Navy as a chaplain. And then finally, after the destroying influences that I discovered after retirement,

I had to pull out. But I was with them from 1982 -83 until 2005.

And I pulled out and never looked back. And if anybody wants to investigate the history of the

Reformed Episcopal Seminary, you can go on YouTube. My name is

Donald Phillip Veach. Look it up and then go to Reformed Episcopal Seminary.

There are seven 30 -minute videos that describe the undoubted

Calvinistic heritage of the Reformed Episcopal Seminary. So at the end of all of this,

I'm really the weirdo. I embrace the Westminster Confession and always have.

On the other hand, I embrace the old prayer book, which I use this morning. I use every morning for morning prayer.

So I got a prayer book and Westminster Confession. The Presbyterians look at me and squint their eyes.

You know, you don't have a prayer book. And the Anglicans say, yeah, but you've got that old Westminster Confession.

You know, that's too much. But I am what I am, and I believe it's biblical. And I found the prayer book to be, show me where it's unbiblical.

It needs to be corrected. And I think the RECs had a good 120 -year run until Riches and Shifty Sutton of Dallas entered the picture.

That's another whole story. He went tractitarianizing and Romanizing, praying to saints, baptismal justification, telling another professor not to teach

Calvinism, and there's more. And who was that? I'm sorry. Pardon?

Who was that that you were just describing? I call him Shifty. It's Ray Sutton, Archbishop of the

REC. So he even went as far as to denounce Calvinism. That's what the senior professor told in his class up in Philadelphia that Sutton had told him, the senior professor, not to teach

Calvinism. I asked that senior professor, and he goes, I don't remember that.

We had private conversations, but I've always taught Calvinism. So I don't know if he was waving it off or not.

I believe the testimony of the two students who heard him say that. Okay. And just out of curiosity, a very dear, long -time friend of mine who is now in heaven,

Dr. Robert J. Cameron was a graduate of Reformed Episcopal Seminary.

He later became an Orthodox Presbyterian pastor. I was just wondering if you knew the late

Dr. Cameron. He was one of the very few Black REC pastors, and then later, very few

Black Orthodox Presbyterian pastors. No, didn't know him, but I know that men went to the

OPC from our school, and then in 1955, get a load of this, the

RPCNA, the Reformed Presbyterians, the Covenanters, up in Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania, their school is still there.

It was passed at one of their synods that they would be able to send men for theological training to Reformed Episcopal Seminary.

And that was, you know, they approved of RES. If a guy lived in that area, he could go there, still join the

RPCNA. And that along, so it was brought alongside the old Covenanters, which was surprising when

I found that. Now, before I forget to ask you who William Twiss was, the 17th century

English clergyman and reformer, why don't you explain why he is a hero of yours and why you named your

Facebook page after him? William Twiss. He was a prayer book man,

BCP. It would have been the 15, I'm going to say 1559 edition, which was certainly recognizable down until 1979.

And he was a Calvinist, a Calvinist Calvinist, I might add. He was a

Supralapsarian, which I'm not, an Amphilapsarian. He also wrote positively and favorably on the

Synod of Dort. It's not as good as a few other books, but he was a

Synod of Dort man. As many as were the five attendees at Synod of Dort sent by King James.

And he lived up until he was invited by unanimous consent of Parliament to be the

Prolocutor of Westminster Assembly. So he was in the very beginning of it, and most unfortunately, he died before it fully took root.

But he's one of the old Calvinists, as were the Elizabethan bishops of the day.

And that's irrefutable and inarguable, which if we ever get to the subject at hand, you'll know that Twiss is one among so many of those old

Calvinists of the old Church of England. They don't exist today. There's a few. There's some.

There's Lee Gatiss in England. There's Gerald Gray, who lives in Cambridge and also in Birmingham.

He's a Calvinist, but there's just not many. Yeah, I've had

Gerald on the show. Oh, have you really? Yes. Oh, he's a walking scholar.

Well, if anybody wants to look up on Facebook, the page to which I refer, look for Twiss House, that's

T -W -I -S -S -E, Twiss House, Reformed Theology, Confessional Reformed Theology.

And you will find Douglas Philip Veatch's page there.

And now tell us, if you could, what a working definition would be of Anglo -Catholicism.

I'm sure the average person who is not Anglican, when you mention

Anglicanism, especially if you're here in the United States, in fact, when

I've had conversations with many people who are not Anglican, they typically jump to two conclusions.

Oh, you mean that left -wing religion that ordains and marries homosexuals and, you know, has totally abandoned the pillars of the faith.

And, you know, they may even think of Bishop John Shelby Spong, who is no longer on this planet.

I shudder to think where he is. But he was at one time a bishop in New Jersey.

I believe he ordained the first homosexual in the Episcopal Church, USA.

I was present at a debate between Bishop Spong and my very dear friend,

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries on homosexuality years ago.

But they either jump to that conclusion or they think, oh, you mean that church that's almost identical to Roman Catholicism.

And although Anglicanism certainly has both of those elements on one end of the spectrum to the other, there are and always have been historic, biblically faithful, confessional,

Reformed, Protestant Anglicans. So if you could explain

Anglo -Catholicism for our listeners. Wow. Mega question to try to boil that down.

I prefer the term Anglo -Romanizing. OK. Because some

Anglo -Catholics, in fact, I would say majority, reject Petrine supremacy.

Right. On the other hand, they embrace many of the

Roman ideas. Baptismal regeneration is one of them. The sacerdotal nature of the priesthood.

Some argue and practice auricular confession. All of them, to my knowledge, believe in what

I call Christ in the Crumbs, which is sacerdotalism, that priest stands with his back to the congregation, lifts up the host, utters the magic words, and commands

Jesus in his body, the body he was born with by the

Virgin Mary, to jump out of heaven onto a million altars and enter into the bread.

They all believe that. Sutton in Dallas believes that.

The old RECs rejected that. This became a big subject of controversy when the

Tractarians, and really, when you think Anglo -Catholicism, you want to think of when it really took off in the 1850s.

So they believed in a version of transubstantiation. Some of them, like Shifty Sutton, Keith Ackerman of the

ACNA, Jack Eicher of the ACNA, they believe in praying to saints.

For example, Sutton endorsed, along with Ackerman and the other guy,

Mark Haverland, a book called The Anglican Office Book. It's 350 pages, and 250 pages have prayers to saints.

Mary, you name the saint, they're saying, Pray for us. It's Roman Catholicism, and at its root, it is an attack on the person of Christ, first of all, as fully

God, fully man, and one person who died on the cross and said,

It is finished, and his atonement is complete, efficacious, sovereign.

It's done. The price was paid. So to invoke other mediators is to detract from his mediation, which is solid and effectual for the elect.

So there's no way around it. That's fully Roman. Now, whether some of these, like I said,

Anglican Catholicism has all the telltale signs of Roman beliefs that were uniformly opposed by the

English reformers, and that's a part of an additional study.

I can list you all kinds of guys who were English reformers who believed in justification by faith alone, sola scriptura, sola fides, and the five solas of the

Reformation. There's no doubt about it. Cranmer was a sola scriptura man. Yes. So the bottom line, quick definition for someone not in Anglicanism or Episcopalianism, they show all the telltale signs of Romanist belief that at bottom, as Cornelius, Dr.

Van Til taught, it's always come back to an attack on the persons, three persons of God.

Transubstantiation, think of that guy and his arrogance, claiming to pull Christ out of heaven as soon as his sovereign word declares him to come down.

You're talking about a reversal here, an empowering of the priest over the sovereignty of Jesus.

It's an insult, and the reformers saw that.

And if, you know, for anybody who's new, doesn't know a lot about Anglicanism, I recommend you get a very simple book by Bishop J .C.

Ryle called The Five English Reformers. It's available on Amazon.

And it really, he deals in large part with this arrogant, demonic, anti -Christian view of transubstantiation.

Now, the rank -and -file Roman Catholic is not taught this. I think the Anglo -Catholics largely are ignorant.

I think a lot of the clergy are pretty uneducated. But I'm gonna tell you right now, Chris, the

English reformers opposed this magic, these magic words, this hocus -pocus.

And that's why they lift the, you know, the element high, because you need to adore Jesus in the crumbs.

And the 39 Articles of Religion were vehemently opposed to that, which were framed by Cranmer himself.

He died for that. And all the English reformers, it was one of the leading points that you denied the sacrament of the altar, because Cranmer lived and grew up in that context.

And so they're the very men who are bearing witness against these things. And for those listening,

I'm not trying to sell my book, by the way, but I'd forgotten about it.

But it's on Amazon .com, and it's called Bibliography, semicolon,

Dr. Thomas Cranmer. And it's me, Don Veitch. V -I -T -C -H.

Correct. And it's 255 pages of bibliography, not that I was going to do a dissertation on his life.

So I'm pretty knee -deep in Cranmerian studies, such that I even communicate regularly by email with Professor Dermot McCulloch of Oxford whenever there's a question that I have.

Going back to baptismal regeneration, I think we mentioned that. That was another subject that came up in the

English Reformation. Martin Busser, who helped to shape the prayer book, said, we baptize infants who are either sheep or goats, and we do so in reverent agnosticism until they show who they are.

So he didn't believe that the magic water on the head converted the baby.

God, again, there again, you got the priest who's almighty doing the regenerating rather than, and that's detracting from the sovereign

God. Anyways, we went down a bunny rabbit trail.

I was trying to answer a simple question for those unfamiliar with this. I just say, look for Romanizing tendencies and Romanizing doctrine.

And this new ACNA thing that arose in 2009, they've got maybe a small group, maybe a third, maybe 20%, who still hold all these

Romanizing doctrines. And nobody says anything. They let it pass instead of confronting the anti -Christian doctrines of Rome.

This is what happens when people who, on the one hand, rightfully opposing leftism, but they unfortunately wrongly search for allies wherever they can and link arms with Romanists because they share with the

Romanists a vehement opposition to the leftism. Am I making sense there?

There's been a branch of these Anglo -Papists, and some of them are for Petrine supremacy.

That's one difference. Anglo -Romanizers, I call them. I lost track.

What did you just say, Chris? I was saying that the reason in my observation why you have both

Reformed Protestant Anglicans and Anglo -Catholics in the

ACNA, the Anglican Church of North America, and it appears to be because people who are in a minority who are looking for allies as they oppose leftism, and this is not only in the

Church of England. This is even in the political arena. People, when they're a minority, sometimes are so eager to find allies that they make seriously wrong and even heretical choices in their bedfellows, if you will, and they wind up linking arms with people who are actually enemies of the gospel.

Yeah, there's, I would say, many, if not most, Anglo -Romanizers in America in the modern period, in the 1977, the

St. Louis, whatever it's called, the St. Louis something.

They were opposed, of course, to LBGTQ. They were opposed to women's ordination like any

Bible person would be, but there also has been another branch of Anglo -Romanism that went in the liberal direction and still claimed the title

Anglo -Catholic, but they continue to be known as affirming Catholics, and one example of that was the

Archbishop of Canterbury, Roland Williams, who was a liberal, and they embraced and were influenced in the late 19th century by liberal theology.

By the way, I'm going to pick up where you left off there because we have to go to our commercial break. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question about Anglo -Catholicism or Anglicanism in general, if you have a question for Donald Phillip Veatch, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

If you live outside of the USA, only remain anonymous if your question is a personal and private one.

That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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The Lord bless you in the knowledge of himself. Welcome back. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is

Donald Philip Veitch, who is a Reformed Anglican and also moderator of the

Facebook page Twists House, a page dedicated to the defense, promotion, and preservation of historic confessional

Anglicanism. Today we are addressing the Anglo -Catholic controversy. Is the very gospel at stake in the rise of Anglicanism's Romish wing?

If you have questions, send them to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Now, from the days of Cranmer, who drafted the 39

Articles, which are very clearly Protestant and Calvinistic, even though the king at the time,

King Henry VIII, from what I understand, was still theologically

Roman Catholic, so much so that Cranmer doubted his salvation.

And perhaps you could correct me if I'm misrepresenting this, Donald, but I have heard from Cranmer scholars that on King Henry VIII's deathbed,

Cranmer held Henry's hand and said, if you believe in justification by faith alone, please squeeze my hand.

And Henry did, which gave him more assurance that Henry had received a new birth.

But where did the Church of Rome rise its ugly head again within Anglicanism?

I know that Bloody Mary rose to power and was executing Protestant clergy, but then the pendulum swung back to Protestantism again.

And if I'm not mistaken, I think Queen Elizabeth at that time was trying to have a more moderate view, but perhaps you should explain.

The story you tell about Henry VIII and his deathbed is often repeated.

And again, I'm knee -deep in Cranmer's studies, but not him alone, of course.

And he was called from Croydon. He was on his deathbed. Croydon was across the river, the

Thames, to come. And, you know, he didn't. What's interesting, he did not use the rites, the last rites as a sacrament of Rome.

And as you told the story about justification by faith, that story comes from Cranmer's secretary,

Ralph Maurice, who told it to John Fox, the great martyriologist.

But there's a contradiction here, because Henry VIII, they had what they call chantry chapels.

And what you did is you would buy the services of the chantry priest to pray day by day for the soul of your relative or anybody else, and they were financed that way.

Henry VIII, but of course that was all cut down in the

Elizabethan Reformation, so there was no more chantry priests, but which they did, they prayed, you know, apply some of those merits to get some time off on purgatory.

He had endowed several chapels in France that continued this chantry ministry of praying for Henry VIII.

They continued that until 1710. So Henry did not, in my book, have the gospel clear in his mind.

Now, quite ironically, however, he gave cover to Thomas Cranmer, and I still have not settled that.

He loved Cranmer, he trusted him, Cranmer was respectful, and he had like this unique covering.

I'm thinking of the Prebendery plot of 1543 led by his nemesis, Wiley Winchester, a .k

.a. Stephen Gardner, Bishop of Winchester. He survived that plot, and there was an underground of people collecting things from Thomas Cranmer's sermons and his writings, and Henry VIII said, no more, you're not doing it, don't touch him.

And somehow Cranmer escaped, despite the continuing

Romanizing of this king. And Henry knew what

Thomas was about, because in 1537, 1538, and I've got the copies in print, they came out with the

Institution of Christian Man and the Bishop's Book, and Cranmer kept writing in, we're justified by faith only.

It would go to Henry, Henry would cross it out and said, justified by faith and works.

Henry was afraid this would unleash antinomianism and make the realm subject to anything goes.

But Cranmer did not back off to his credit, despite him being virtually alone in high places.

And back and forth they went, eight or 10 times. And there was a slight

Lutheranizing influence in the

Institution for Christian Man in 1537, but ever so slight. As for Cranmer, the great question is, was he a

Lutheran before he became Archbishop in 1533? And Eustace Chapuis, the

Spanish ambassador, said that the word on the street was that he was a Lutheran. Now he had been on two ambassadorial trips for Henry.

The first time to go down to the Pope, try to get him to change his mind on the marriage with Catherine Aragon.

Another time to Charles V as an ambassador. And that's when in 1532, despite being a priest, he got married in,

I forget the name of the town now, but he married the niece of Oseander, a

Lutheran theologian. And he had a lot of stories about, you know, and Henry knew all that, despite the six articles in 1539 that made it a capital offense for priests to be married.

There were six articles which included and covered the same old standard issues, transubstantiation, mass for the dead, the sacerdotalism, auricular confession, prayers for and to the dead.

That was in 1539. Now at that point,

Hugh Latimer, he also was burned 16 October 1555 in one of the

Morion Martyrs. In 1539, when these six articles came out, he was the

Bishop of Worcester. And as soon as that happened, he said, I'm out of here. I'm no longer a bishop, but he continued to work for Cranmer.

So all of that, going back to this deathbed experience, and once he died and King Edward came in, the foot was put to the pedal, pedal to the metal, and they came out with the 42 articles, two prayer books, 1549, 1552.

And I'm gonna tell you right now, Chris, they were Calvinists. And for anybody wanting to study

Calvinism in the Church of England, there's no better volume or volumes than Reverend Augustus Toplady, known for his hymns,

Rock of Ages. He wrote doctrinal Calvinism in the Church of England, and he crushes it.

You will be convinced by reading that, they were Calvinists. Or if you want, another useful set is the 55 -volume

Parker Society Series. It's available on, give me a second, reformedbooksonline .com.

reformedbooksonline .com. And it was, it came up actually as the Tractarian movement was emerging in the mid -19th century with John Millman, Edward Pusey, John Keble.

It was quite a reaction in England. None of this, they had produced their 90 tracts, these three or four guys.

The entire Episcopal bench of the Church of England condemned the tracts, and the

English, the Reformed of the Church of England put out these 55 volumes and are still available online.

And if anybody out there, say a youngster comes around, Anglo -Romanizers, ask the clerk, the caller, if he's read any of those, because they are rock solid and they give you a full picture of the

Reformed theology of the English Reformers. No transubstantiation, no baptismal regeneration, no incense, no bread worship, no bread adoration, and predestination and total depravity,

Article 9, no free will, justification only by Christ alone,

Article 11, and you'll get the picture of the Reformed Church of England. Now it's departed from that, as we noted, in so many different ways,

I don't even know what Anglicanism is anymore. I really don't. And a friend of mine,

Reverend Ken and Chuck Collins, would be another good man for you to interview, he's trying to get the

ACNA back to its Reformation roots, the articles, the homilies, the

Book of Common Prayer, to get back to the foundation. And for any

Presbyterian or Reformed Baptist listening in, you know, you and I, we could sit down at dinner and go for three, four hours on all this stuff, and they'd be comfortable with my approach.

Now was my recollection of history correct in that after the death of Bloody Mary, when

Elizabeth I rose to power, she once again brought

Protestantism back to the Church of England, but wasn't she more tolerant of Romanism, tried to be more of a, somewhat of a peacemaker, or am

I wrong on that? There's that sense at times, there's a famous saying, and I don't know if she said it, or it's the poetry of John Donne, that the word doth spake it, what he doth make it,

I do take it, which if you take that, then you could go in a Lutheran direction, which

Lutheranism is the same thing as Rome. They'll fight with you about that and say, no, no, no, no, we believe in consubstantiation,

Christ is present in, with, and under the elements. But I think Dr. Torrance Kirby, Church historian, head of the

Church History Department at University of Montreal, he said it's just transubstantiation, light,

L -I -T -E, and I agree with him. And it's very clear. I'm thinking of Justo Gonzalez's book about how the

English Reformed Church rejected the Lutheran and the Roman view.

Anglo -Catholics once again bring in this red crumb factory and a million pulvers.

And I think, speaking of Cranmer, he debated Bishop Bonner. Bonner was put in jail during Elizabeth Edward's time, and he had a debate with him.

And Thomas Cranmer said to him, and of course Bonner gave the standard, you know,

Christ in the crumbs theory, and Cranmer said, do you eat the nose?

Do you eat the ears? How about the tongue? An arm?

A leg? And he really kind of put Bonner, Bonner's only answer was to, you know, hit repeat button.

And of course later Bonner would become known as Bloody Bonner and one of the henchmen who'd be involved even in Cranmer's death.

And this Christ in the crumbs was one of those points. It's amazing, Chris, that men died over this.

To this day. And I could read you the long, long list.

I've got the names. It would take too much time on the program here, but the 287 people who went to the flames over this and correlate doctrines.

It's our heritage. They're our martyrs. They still speak today.

It's all about power. Rome is about power. Rome is one of the big antichrists.

And I say Anglo -Romanism is anti -Christian because think about it.

A little tiny puny guy in a collar and he's got the drapes on his back.

That's another sign you see them. They love dressing up. And he calls commands.

Think about it, Chris. He calls commands at the word, this is my body. He jumps out of heaven in his body into the bread.

And they sacrifice the sovereignty of King Jesus. Still believed.

And I'm afraid in a day of doctrinal decline, doctrinal indifference, I think it's just no longer an issue in many places.

We have to get to our midway break right now. And if you want to add anything to what you were saying, that's fine when we come back.

But I also want to begin a discussion on the Oxford movement, the

Pusyites, the Tractarians, and other Romish movements that began to corrupt

Anglicanism. And ironically, the Reformed Episcopal Church, which now has been so influenced, so heavily influenced by Anglo -Catholicism, it was actually started in protest against that denomination.

But anyway, we will hopefully get time for a lot of discussions in the next hour.

And once again, if you have a question, submit it to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages.

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Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now. Last but not least, if you are not a member of a

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and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address to send in a question to Donald Philip Veitch, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence. Before I go to any listener questions, Donald, please explain how the

Tractarian movement, the Oxford movement, and the Pouseyites, or Puseyites, gained a foothold to, unfortunately, bring

Romanism back into the Anglican Church. Before I answer that, let me just shoehorn this point in.

Again, Parker Society series online at reformbooksonline .com.

I want to note the 1595 articles written by Archbishop John Whitgift all about predestination and reprobation.

Very short. Elizabeth didn't like it because he didn't seek her permission, but Whitgift was writing in conjunction with the

Cambridge professor William Whitaker, whose book on Disputations of Holy Scriptures is a barn burner.

I also want to mention Bishop James Usher. I've got a picture of him here about two feet from where I'm sitting.

He wrote, and his Church of Ireland wrote the 1615 Irish Articles, and if you read those, you'll see that about 80 % to 90 % of the language was picked up by the

Westminster Confession. Again, Calvinistic Anglican prayerbook man.

And don't forget 1618 Synod of Dort that the

Reformed Churches embraced. James I sent five men to Dort and they all endorsed and subscribed to it.

It came back to London, England, and James I agreed with it but did not want to codify it.

And the reason he did not want to codify it was because it was largely endorsed and shaped by Dutch elders.

Dutch, French, German, anybody Swiss who were there.

He agreed with the theology of Tulip, total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints, but he did not want to give visibility to that awful idea of the parity of elders.

He wanted bishops, no bishops, no king. So he refused to codify it and that was one of the huge mistakes of the

Church of England. And then of course not to forget that the Westminster Confession was written and drafted by men who were raised, grew up in prayerbook

Anglicanism, Church of England men. So all of that, and of course then the

Westminster Confession is shaped, it was designed to be an amplification in the 39 articles.

But I wanted to shoehorn that in and we jump ahead now, covering a lot of ground, the

Caroline Divines, the Hanoverian Revolution, Bloodless Revolution, 1689, and we come down to the 1840s and 50s to the

Tractarians, John Keble, John Newman, and Edward Fusey.

I might just slide in there that Robert E. Lee was an Episcopalian and he went to one of these

Tractarian churches. They're starting to take off in the U .S. And he was at a meeting with his fellow officers at West Point.

He called them Pussyites. And of course that's kind of a rude and crude term to call someone a pussy.

And of course I'm Navy Marines, I'm kind of used to rough hooth language, but maybe they'd been drinking a little bit.

But with all the show and the glamour and the glitz, emotional intensity of hats and drapes and other extravaganzas and father, like to be called fathers.

Anyways, these three men thought they wanted to deprotestantize the

Church of England. And they said this. And they emphasized apostolic succession and bread worship.

And Edward Fusey wrote a horrible book on infant baptism.

And to the point that faith was hardly even mentioned, but he said that there's only two times of absolute assurance of salvation.

At that moment of baptism, when you're regenerated, once again, a

Roman idea, once again, power in the hand of the minister. And then secondly, if you go to heaven, you're purified.

But everything in between, you have no justification and no assurance of it.

And there was an American Episcopal Bishop, Charles McIlvain. And I recommend this to anybody wanting to see what the

Oxford Divines, which is what the Tractarians came to be called, read his book called

Oxford Divinity. It's on amazon .com. And he surveys all the articles or the tracts.

They're called Tractarians because they had 90 tracts. And I might add that the entire

Episcopal bench of the Church of England condemned the tracts. Some of them went off, about a thousand of them went off to Rome.

A bunch of them remained and worked underground, like Walter Walsh writes about in the

Secret History of the Oxford Movement, another good book. So Charles McIlvain, he's buried up in Cincinnati, I've been there.

He was an evangelical Episcopalian. He trained at Princeton under Archibald Alexander, that great first professor at PTS.

And Charles McIlvain was his student under Samuel Miller, the second minister or professor.

And Charles McIlvain asked Alexander, Presbyterian, whether he should be a

Presbyterian or Episcopalian. And Alexander the Presbyterian said, go with the

Episcopalians, they need good men. And he was a good man. And he was very close with Bishop George David Commons, who would come out of the

Episcopal Church in 1873, but he did not want to split from the

Episcopal Church, but the two of them were bishops and McIlvain was the elder, but he understood what the

REC stood for. So these tracts, 90 of them is what defines them with their theology.

Again, baptismal, you get a smell and a flavor of it in the Reformed Episcopal Prayer Book from 1873.

And listen to these points. The fourth article, this church condemns and rejects the following erroneous and strange doctrines as contrary to God's word.

First of all, the Church of Christ exists in only one order or form in ecclesiastical history.

They made room for, you know, Congregationalists, Presbyterians, and yet still wanted to keep on their side the historic

Episcopate. But I do say that they believe the bishop was the senior presbyter, a primus inter pares.

So I kind of wish they had made a change and said take out the word bishop and say senior presbyter.

Secondly, that Christian ministers are priests in another sense than that in which all believers belong to the royal priesthood.

Third, and here's where the modern RECs fall off their historic wagon, that the

Lord's table, they reject this, that the Lord's table on which the oblation of the body and blood of Christ is offered anew to the

Father. Well, the Tractarians were asserting that bread worship stuff.

Fourth, that the presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper is a presence in the elements of bread and wine.

That's standard Reformed theology. That's the English Reformers. Fifth, you'll like this as a

Baptist, Chris, that regeneration is inseparably connected to baptism.

And that would be one of the big hooks that would be a part of the REC. Because when the

Arminians took over with Billy Laud, Archbishop of Canterbury, and some of the

Caroline Divines, they believed ipso facto when that minister,

I say minister, not priest, because everybody listening out there who's a believer is a priest.

When that minister throws the water on the head, ipso facto, that kid is baptismally regenerated and justified as Ray Sutton has taught, baptismal justification.

And I had a student of Ray Sutton, and he was teaching this in 2000.

Now, that takes us into the history of the Reformed Episcopalians. But it was basically by these three men, and many stayed in the

Church of England. And they stressed, of course, apostolic succession.

And I might add for your listeners, I have apostolic succession on that view.

My orders go back to Bishop William White of Philadelphia, first bishop of the

Episcopal Church. They go back to the English Reformation. And before that,

I can claim that. But guess what? Doesn't matter. What matters is the transmission of apostolic doctrine.

Amen. So anything I'm saying here on your radio program, if it doesn't pass the

Bible smell test, reject it. I'm not infallible. I'm not inerrant. I am a fellow priest.

Yes, I'm ordained. I can do this apostolic tradition thing, but that's not the question.

The question is, am I teaching the biblical theology? And that's a yes or no question.

But they pressed that in order to keep power in their hands, power in baptism, power in the

Lord's Supper, power in asserting their episcopacy. They love power, like the

Antichrist of Rome. I call him Antichrist openly. In the last six months, as I continue my reading,

I've always known that, in fact, that got wiped out of the WCF by the Americans.

I don't think it's there anymore. But I, with all of the Reformers, I say all of them, as well as John Wycliffe, I'm studying

Wycliffe these days, in contact with the residential historian of Lutterworth, he called them

Antichrist because they oppose and dishonor Jesus Christ in his cross work.

And I hate to sound rough and tough. I'm an old marine, old sailor, but I call them

Antichrist. And that includes those who are teaching a false gospel in the

ACNA, like Ackerman, Praying to Saints, or Sutton with his

Anglican office book. But Tractarianism created quite a stir in England and took over about maybe one -third of the clergy.

And they had to struggle with that for years thereafter. And again, the Parker Society was one big answer to them.

Also, William Goode, another, the Word of God, excellent book.

And then, of course, the Free Church of England, Reformed Episcopalians, were a witness against the

Tractarians. We were taught about the Tractarians at RES. Their theology is just Romanizing.

They don't hold the Petrine supremacy, but bread worship, baptismal regeneration, the high and mighty bishop.

I hope that helped. Yes, and how did the Reformed Episcopal Church denomination, which was specifically, initially founded to oppose and bring an end to the

Romish Oxford movement, how did it finally succumb to the very things that they opposed?

Well, it was in the 1860s that 1860, George Commons was struggling with this in his diocese in Kentucky.

And when they split in 1873, one of the major issues was baptismal regeneration at the

Church of Chicago, Christ Church in Chicago, where a presbyter, a

Macomb presbyter, not a priest, was, he refused in baptism. There's a phrase, seeing this child is regenerate.

That's in the prayer book. He wouldn't use it because he was not an Arminian. Arminians can use it because he's regenerated.

Bang, he loses his regeneration, confesses to the Father, and he's reborn again.

It's Arminianism. He would not use it. Bishop Whitehouse, as the bishop, tried to take his orders from him, and Bishop Cheney would not succumb.

And also, he was influenced by a short tract of 40 to 50 pages by F .S.

Rising, Church of England clergyman, entitled, Are There Romanizing Germs in the

Prayer Book? And it's wonderful. And so that struck

George David Cummins on several of these points, of points in the 1662 prayer book that had not been changed, that could easily, there's workarounds by Protestants, but it would leave open the door to the

Romanizers. And so he started in 1873, and it lasted until the early 1990s, and then the takeover began.

And by 2000, the REC had a 10 -year project to unite with a vigorously anti -Roman or anti -Catholic, or Anglo -Catholic group called

APA, Anglo -Province of America. APA.

And it's the most stunning and striking thing between REC and APA.

Even David Virtue of Virtue Online, don't know if you've heard of him. I was talking with him on the phone as that was taking off, and he said, even the bishops, and he knew that the bishops were getting ready to come out with ACNAs.

He said, it's the weirdest marriage you've ever want to see.

I'd gotten out of the Navy. I began doing forensic research, and that's my specialty, forensic theology.

And for five years, I investigated, talked to people.

I remember an Ohio State, a Texas State trooper called me on the phone, and he said, did the

RECs pray to Mary? And I said, no. He said, well, the bishop's son is a presbyter down here, and at Holy Communion, he's praying to Mary.

So I would hear all these weird stories, and finally I said, this is not the

REC of the old RECs. My landlady, my former landlady, was raised by a

Reformed Episcopal minister, and she was so appalled by the denomination of her youth becoming so Romish that she left it and became an

Orthodox Presbyterian. Yeah, in 2000, and that happened to many, many, many, many, many, many people,

Chris, many. They just said, enough, I'm gone. In 2005, they had what they called a unity mass held in Orlando, and an

REC minister video -cammed it. He was brokenhearted. He was crying, and I was able to get a hold of that copy, and in CD fashion, or DVD, one or the other, you know, where you could put it in and watch it on TV, and I got about 100 copies, and I sent it to all of the professors by snail mail, all of the

Reformed presbyters or professors in Reformed seminaries.

I sent them a copy, and I had a few phone cons with them afterwards, but it is not anymore a place to study.

For example, back to Shifty Sutton of the REC, he's a liar, and not only that, he's dishonest, and he steals, hijacks the name of his little puny school in Dallas called

Cranmer something, Cranmer House, Cranmer Theological Seminary. Cranmer would have opposed him on every point, and yet he's willing to use

Cranmer's name and then float his anti -Christian doctrines.

Well, we have a listener named Drew in Flanders, Long Island, New York, and Drew says, when did it become vogue for Anglican and Episcopalian ministers to refer to themselves as father and to refer to their office as a priesthood?

Excellent question. In fact, I've heard from a Reformed Anglican that calling a minister or rector father began exclusively as an

American phenomenon. I don't know if you agree with that, but I heard that from one Anglican, one Reformed Anglican, but if you could answer the question that Drew asked.

I think it's from the Anglo -Romanizers. A third of England went to some degree toward Anglo -Romanizers.

In America, it hit and took about a half of the church with it, such that at New York Seminary called

General Seminary, one student, early 1901 or 1902, said, we have

Little Oxford here at General, and they were known as a hothouse for Anglo -Romanizing.

And I think it was 1901, 1902. Before that,

Episcopal ministers were called either Reverend so -and -so or Mr. So -and -so.

And they didn't have hats and drapes until 1901 in America. Wow. And even solid men who are

Anglican, I disagree with them on this, and maybe you would disagree with me,

I don't know, but they will continue to use the term priest, not that they view it in a sacerdotal way, but they will say, oh, it's just an abbreviation of presbyter.

I disagree with that, but when did that come into vogue, and do you agree with that? I think that's been standard in the prayer books.

I don't buy it either. I know I've heard that it's that contraction idea. Well, let's clear it up.

Let's just clean it up. Let's call it presbyter if you want. And the Episcopalians, to their credit, continue that in their tradition.

They wiped out the word priest in the prayer book. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Then the minister shall say, you know, then the minister, like he is minister most of the time.

They refused it and got away from anything that sounded or smelled like sacerdotalism. Okay, we have

Ruby in Columbia, South Carolina, and Ruby asks, what do you know, if anything, about the denomination, which is called the

Charismatic Episcopal Church? Very little.

I know a friend who went into it, and they're charismatic. I also went for numerous times, up about 45, 50 miles, and you might call it a soft

Pentecostal church, you know, waving the hands and guitars, and then they'd squeeze in the prayer book and they were more biblical to my mind than others.

There was an attempt to preserve biblical authority. I don't know if they're still functioning or not up there, but it's very small.

And there's a wing, I don't know how big it is, in ACNA that is charismatic.

And I've seen a few services where it's Pentecostal, it's hopping around. One bishop is, you know, jumping around, waving his hands, acting crazy.

We have, before we go to the final break, a question from Ted in Moundville, Alabama.

And Ted asks, I do realize that the central focus of today's program is

Anglo -Catholicism, but given Mr. Veatch's experience and expertise, both within and without the

Anglican communion proper, I'm wondering if I may ask a slightly different or unrelated question.

Specifically, does your guest have any thoughts on the current controversies within the

ACNA regarding Bishop Julian Dodds, Archbishop Steve Wood, or Bishop Derek Jones, who appears to be on the threshold of his own startup denomination?

It's a challenging time to be a bishop in our neck of the woods. I'm not,

I know that's all that's going on. And I know Steve Woods has been, there's been a presentiment or charges against him.

They're meeting and discussing that now. And then there's this other one who wants to start a new denomination.

As for Bishop Julian Dodds, his group, his diocese is the

Association and Diocese of Living Word. They're the only one in the ACNA that requires subscription to the 39

Articles. And Henry Jansma was one of the big leaders in that diocese.

But that's as far as I can go. I don't know the inner details, all of that's still pending.

And by the way, folks, you might be interested in hearing a debate I had on my program a number of years ago with the aforementioned

Henry Jansma, who is a Reformed Anglican. He debated another

Reformed Anglican named Matt Kennedy. And in spite of their agreeing on Reformed theology,

Matt Kennedy embraces the ceremony of Ash Wednesday and Henry Jansma strongly opposed it.

And they debated on that issue. If you go to the Iron Trip and Zion Radio website, irontripandzionradio .com,

and you type in J -A -N -S -M -A for Henry Jansma, that debate will come up.

We're going to our final break right now. And once again, if you have a question, send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back.

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Quorum, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Janssen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Quorum, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net

That's hopereformedli .net Or call 631 -696 -5711

That's 631 -696 -5711

Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Quorum, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is

Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org That's gracechurchatfranklin .org

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

I'm Simon O'Mahoney, Pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession, we embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's Word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our

Triune God. We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of Scripture, loving, encouraging, and serving each other as the body of Christ.

In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every

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That's trbccarlisle .org God willing, we'll see you soon.

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But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

In the film, Chariots of Fire, Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.

I sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the Word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a Savior who died for sinners, and that God forgives all who come to Him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.

That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's Word, and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

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Tell them Chris from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio sent you. Puritan Reformed is a

Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church. We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and kings.

We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.

We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt

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Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth.

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And, folks, please never forget that this program is paid for in part by the law firm of Buttafuoco &

Associates. If you're the victim of a very serious personal injury or medical malpractice anywhere in the

United States, please call my very long -time dear friend and brother in Christ, Daniel P.

Buttafuoco, at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, or visit

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Please tell Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, that you heard about his law firm, Buttafuoco &

Associates, from Chris Arnzen of Iron Trip and Zion Radio. And I also want to quickly remind our listeners who are men in ministry leadership, you are invited to the next free, biannual

Iron Trip and Zion Radio Pastor's Luncheon, featuring for the second time as our keynote speaker,

Dr. Conrad Mbewe, pastor of Kabwata Baptist Church of Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, and also founding chancellor of the

African Christian University, a dear friend of mine since 1996. It's absolutely free of charge and will be held on Thursday, March the 5th, 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. Everything is free of charge, including a heavy sack, perhaps even two heavy sacks, of free brand new books, selected by me personally, and also donated by Christian publishers all over the

United States and United Kingdom. Everything is free. To register, send me an email to chrisarnzen at gmail .com

and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. The night before the Pastor's Luncheon, Wednesday, March the 4th,

Dr. Mbewe will also be preaching at the church where I am a member, Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

That's at 7 p .m. That event is open to everyone, men, women, and children. And for more details on Trinity Reformed Baptist Church and how to get there, go to trbccarlisle .org.

trbccarlisle .org. And we are now back with Donald Philip Veitch as we continue and conclude our fascinating conversation on Anglo -Catholicism.

By the way, I want to give some book recommendations of my own from our friends at Solid Ground Christian Books.

First, An Unknown Treasure by a Reformed Episcopal pastor in the 19th century in New York City, Stephen H.

Ting. That's T -Y -N -G. The two books that I'm aware of that Solid Ground Christian Books publishes or has brought back into print are

The Christian Pastor, The Office and Duty of the Gospel Minister. What a treasure that is.

I've given it away at my pastor's luncheons for several years.

And also, Lectures on the Law and Gospel, also by Stephen H.

Ting. And on top of that we have Rock of Ages, Augustus Toplady, The Little Known Man Behind the

Well -Known Hymn by Thomas Isham. I -S -H -A -M. He was a mutual friend of my late brother and friend,

Roger Salter. And we have another book by Thomas Isham, A Born -Again

Episcopalian, The Evangelical Witness of Charles Pettit -Mechelvein, whom my guest mentioned earlier.

These are all treasures available and many, many more from Solid -Ground -Books .com.

Solid -Ground -Books .com. And Donald, we have a listener question for you.

A listener, I was just looking at it, from Idaho. And that is from Bonner's Ferry, Idaho.

Bernard wants to know, in your opinion, what would be the elements that need to be possessed by a church for it to be considered an

Anglo -Catholic church so we know how to avoid them? They'll use a missile.

They'll pray to saints. They'll teach baptismal regeneration.

Very often they'll teach the seven ecumenical councils. They will be anti -Reformation.

They'll like a lot of dress -up. You might see some incense swinging around and a bunch of lights.

And they're not confessional. And I have a meme with 13 to 14

Reformed confessions, one of which is the 39 articles. If they don't embrace those clearly, fully, understandably, steer clear.

Because you can have a prayer book service, but a lot can hide behind an old prayer book.

And since 1979, they've lost the old prayer book anyways. But a lot of stuff can hide behind that.

So you've got to be careful. And I would just say stay away. Get in a Reformed church and study this stuff on the side.

Or like I do every morning, I use the morning prayer from the prayer book. And I could use evening prayer, but I'm busy reading at that point.

The litany is excellent. Centuries old. Even Charles Hodge said, the litany doesn't belong to the Episcopalians.

That's the possession of the church. Very good question.

What are the open markers that you can tell? We're out of time, and it's been a fascinating conversation,

Donald. I really appreciate you making the time to be on the program. I want to thank you so much.

You are an encyclopedia of information on this issue. I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater