June 11, 2025 Show with John P. Worrall on “Examining the Dynamic of Principle & Opportunity in Leadership”

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June 12, 2025

June 11, 2025 JOHN P. WORRALL,ordained minister, author of “Notthe Center of the Universe” & “TheSecond Man”, & an active leader inthe Keystone Baptist Association inPennsylvania, who will address: “EXAMINING the DYNAMIC ofPRINCIPLE & OPPORTUNITY inLEADERSHIP” Subscribe: Listen:

00:03: Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer
00:10: George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend
00:16: Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
00:23: Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:57: And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:10: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet
01:15: Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:21: This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 11th day of June 2025, and I'm delighted to have a first -time guest today.
01:37: His name is John Worrell. As he puts it, he is a reassigned servant of Jesus Christ.
01:45: He was a pastor for over 50 years and now serves the king as a writer, teacher, and supporter of other servants of the king.
01:57: And John is the author of Not the Center of the
02:03: Universe, a daily devotional for those in Christian ministry. He has also just released his newest book,
02:11: The Second Man, an examination of King David and his nephew, General Joab.
02:18: It is a comparison between the core values of principle and opportunity.
02:24: And today we are going to be addressing examining the dynamic principle of opportunity in leadership.
02:33: And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, John Worrell.
02:42: Thank you, Chris. It is my privilege as well. I am really interested and excited to share whatever
02:52: God wants us to know. Amen. Well, before we go into the theme at hand,
03:01: I understand that you are a leader in the Keystone Baptist Association here in central
03:09: Pennsylvania. Why don't you tell our listeners about that? The Keystone Baptist Association is over 35 churches of Southern Baptist, and we go all the way from Upstate College and down to the state line and across the
03:27: Susquehanna. And we're part of the Baptist Resource Network of Pennsylvania and Southern New Jersey.
03:38: I have been years ago. I was moderator. Now, I am the treasurer, which is kind of an you'd have to understand me to say that that's an amazing thing.
03:53: But also, I am a zone leader where I help the pastors to just to have opportunities to get together, encourage one another.
04:03: And in fact, we're going to have a breakfast meeting tomorrow morning and looking forward to that.
04:11: So we we just share the word and share one another's fellowship.
04:17: And I can honestly say that I have never found a stinker among anyone.
04:24: And what I mean by that is the idea that these fellows are are transparent, honest.
04:30: They're not coming here to compare, you know, nickels, noses and kneelers. They're very interested in one another, want to help each other and certainly further the kingdom of God and bring others to Jesus Christ.
04:45: It has been a privilege to know these men. And I am very, very thankful to be part of this fellowship to help help the work go forward.
04:56: We have a great director and his name is Brad Horn. And I've never met a man who was more of an evangelist than this fellow.
05:07: Great. Well, I would appreciate it if you passed on invitations to these men on my behalf to my next
05:14: Iron Trump and Zion Radio Free Pastors Luncheon, which will be held Thursday, September 18th at 11 a .m.
05:22: at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, which is in Perry County, featuring my keynote speaker for the second time,
05:32: Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. So it'd be great to see a good representative of the
05:38: Keystone Baptist Association in attendance there. Well, we'll see if we can make that happen.
05:45: Great. Well, as we do here on Iron Trump and Zion Radio, whenever we have a first -time guest on the program, we have that guest give a summary of his or her salvation testimony, which would include any kind of religious atmosphere, if any, in which they were raised and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign
06:09: Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them. So we would love to hear your story.
06:17: Well, I'm glad to share it. My mother and father came over from England just after World War II to Canada.
06:29: And then my dad, who was a pastor, he got an opportunity to take a church on the border of New York in New Jersey, the northern border of New Jersey, and settled into a church there.
06:46: And then I came along. I'm the only Yankee in the family. I was born in Newark.
06:54: Are you still there, John? John, are you still there? Yeah, you keep breaking up now.
07:00: I don't know why. So I grew up in a preacher's home, and I saw religion from the backside of the pulpit.
07:10: What my mom and dad shared with others, it was the same both sides.
07:17: But when I was nine years old, I was sent to a
07:22: Christian camp, Montrose Bible Conference up near Scranton. And there
07:29: I met another preacher's kid who was an assistant counselor.
07:36: And I tell people that when he prayed, he knew who he was talking to.
07:43: And I knew that I didn't. One night, in fact, it was this night,
07:49: July the 4th, 1962, my cabin counselor came in, woke us all up.
07:57: And as I was sitting on the edge of my bunk, I was listening to him share the gospel.
08:04: And it started to make sense to me. So with that in mind, particularly,
08:11: I remember one verse of weeping and gnashing of teeth. And I said, I do not want to experience that.
08:19: So by the side of my bunk, I asked Jesus Christ to be my personal Savior. And I went to bed that night with this idea.
08:26: It was settled. And when I saw my parents on a Saturday, I told them,
08:32: I accepted Jesus as my personal Savior. Later on, somebody asked me, how do you know?
08:39: And I said to them, because the Bible tells me so. So raised in a preacher's family, oftentimes you get the question, hey, are you going to be a pastor like your daddy?
08:50: And my answer would be, no, I want to be an architect. While we lived all over New York State, because preachers move around a lot,
08:59: I had the opportunity during high school years to have a full major in mechanical drawing and architecture.
09:05: I had a regent's scholarship from New York State and the opportunity to go for a full ride to Syracuse University, which is one of the best architectural schools in the country.
09:17: But between my junior and senior year, God spoke to me once more at a
09:23: Christian camp. And he spoke to me and said this, John, I want you to build lives, not buildings.
09:30: And I said, yes, Lord. And I have not been disappointed with what he has done with me and for me.
09:40: And I've had a chance to build some things as well. But being a pastor for over 50 years has been a wonderful thrill, and I'm very, very thankful.
09:52: God gave me a wonderful woman who didn't grow up in the church. She was
09:57: Roman Catholic, but she came to know the Lord when she was about 18 years old, a friend of mine.
10:05: And then she received Christ and God gave her six wonderful children.
10:14: And one of them right now is a pastor. The youngest one has also been in the ministry, and many of them are active in serving the
10:26: Lord Jesus. But I love them all. I'm thankful for everyone. Amen.
10:32: Well, before we move on to our main theme, the first book that you wrote, which has an excellent title,
10:43: Not the Center of the Universe, a yearly devotional for those in Christian ministry.
10:50: What was it that compelled you to write this healthy -sized devotional?
10:59: And I'm assuming a lot of it had to do with the fact that you were a pastor for half a century.
11:05: But tell us about some more details. Well, that was a very interesting thing.
11:11: My director of missions, Brad Horn, with the KBA, we spent a lot of time together.
11:19: And one day he turned to me and he says, you ought to write. And I said, no one wants to read what
11:26: I have to say. And so he let it drop. And then six months later, he turns to me again and he says, you ought to write a devotional book.
11:40: And father said, that's what I want you to do. And so I said, yes,
11:47: Lord. So for the next nine months or so, as I went through my personal devotions,
11:56: I pulled out a special pad that one of my sons had purchased for me and started just writing bullet points down.
12:09: John, are you there? You broke off. You are silent right now.
12:15: Can you hear me? Yes. I don't know why you keep going off the air there, but you're back.
12:22: Okay. Maybe I'm moving my hands too much. So, as I was saying,
12:35: I just worked through my personal devotions and looking at particular portions of Scripture.
12:41: Because I have a particular reading pattern. I read from Law, History, Poetry, Prophecy, Major, Minor, Gospels, Church Letters, and General Epistles.
12:55: And I try, I emphasize the word try, to do that every day. So from that,
13:04: I created the bullet points for these devotionals and then started working through them.
13:12: That was quite a task. Fortunately, I had my wife and also a good friend,
13:21: Dean Birch, who is a specialist in grammar, punctuation, and syntax.
13:30: And he helped me a great deal. But any mistakes you find are not his, they are still mine.
13:37: In connection with those things. So I was able to put the book together and then, you know, you have to go through the idea of organizing it and choosing dates.
13:49: Some of the dates are personal, like my wife's birthday or a friend's birthday.
13:58: One of my, a couple of my children in connection with their births. But not everyone, just kind of organizing these things and trusting the
14:09: Holy Spirit to help me to put this together, since he's the one who wanted me to do it in the first place.
14:17: So that's how the book came about. And then I was a little bit timid about this whole thing.
14:26: I needed, honestly, a kick in the pants. And God brought another man in my life to speak into my heart and challenge me not only to write this book, not the center of the universe, but also to think about this.
14:48: He says, how many books do you have in you? And I was flabbergasted.
14:53: You know, I thought to myself, this is enough to cheat, but just to get one book out. And then he recommended a self -publishing company,
15:04: Palmetto Publishing. And I've been very happy with their work for me. And so that came, that's how the book came into existence.
15:15: Great. And one thing I wanted to say about the title, Not the
15:23: Center of the Universe, it reminded me of a quote by the 19th century
15:33: English historian Lord Acton, who famously said, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
15:45: I know that anybody in leadership is likely to be tempted to swell with pride, to think of himself more highly than he ought, to think of himself as the center of the universe, as your title implies we are not the center of the universe.
16:10: Tell us in your own reasons why you chose that title. Well, at first of all,
16:17: I thought it was unique. And then when I started looking at other books, I realized it wasn't. But never anything from a
16:24: Christian perspective. I believe that God doesn't put square pegs in round holes.
16:32: I think that he designs us with certain gifts, abilities, and talents that he wants to use for his glory.
16:42: So if you, and some people don't like this, but I'm going to say it anyway, when you stand up in front of someone, you've got to have an ego to make a public address, to speak out.
16:56: There's got to be an ego. The question is, who's in control? And I believe that when we let the
17:04: Holy Spirit control our egos, that he can use them for his glory.
17:11: But I know that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. And so, you know, there are a lot of people out there who think they're the center of the universe.
17:19: Unfortunately, we crank out these seminarians and Bible school students and never prepare them for dealing with the humanity.
17:35: There's too many of those of my calling who have dropped out of ministry.
17:44: And I don't want to fix any blame or anything else like this, but oftentimes they weren't prepared for the hardships that come along.
17:53: If they truly keep Christ in the center of their lives and recognize you're not the center of the universe, a phrase
18:01: I use often, especially when I'm standing in a queue and someone says to me, you know,
18:08: I'm sorry you had to wait. I said, I am not the center of the universe. It's helped me also in my driving habits.
18:15: Though I still sometimes yell at the next guy.
18:22: I have to be honest with that. What would be some signs that a man of God who happens to be in pastoral office specifically, but I mean, it could be any
18:39: Christian in leadership, some signs that they should be on the lookout for that they have come to view themselves as the center of the universe.
18:51: It could be like a frog in a kettle scenario where a man enters into the ministry, one of the most humble and gracious young men that his peers in seminary had ever seen or fellow church members.
19:15: Then as time wears on, there may be sadly changes in a negative fashion that take over this person's mind and heart and character.
19:26: So what are some signs that you can share from your 50 years of experience of why men should start to question whether they view themselves that way?
19:41: Well, a lot of it has to do with the ability to take criticism or a different point of view.
19:49: When the scripture tells us that a multitude of counselors in that multitude of counselors are safety, often we feel that we're the spiritual force.
20:01: What we say is the will of God. We prayed over this. We've sought this out.
20:08: We've got this plan. We've got everything going in this particular direction.
20:14: And as John Maxwell would say, oftentimes people who don't take people with them, when you don't take people with you on the journey, all you're doing is going out for a walk.
20:24: And I believe that there are a lot of pastors who just think, well, you know,
20:30: I'm the pastor. You should do what I tell you to do because I'm God's man.
20:37: And I'm sure that he's God's man. And I am sure that he's had a calling from the
20:42: Lord. But that doesn't mean that you're the center of the universe. It doesn't mean that you know everything or that you really have taken the time to grasp what kind of ministry you have.
21:00: I believe that a church is a church because it carries out two things, the
21:07: Great Commission and the Great Commandment. But how those two things are manifested in a local assembly can be very different from L .A.
21:19: to, you know, Podunk, Iowa. There is a different way of handling it.
21:26: I remember we had people who were really eager to be able to reach out and help people in their need.
21:34: And so they considered the idea of we're going to hold Thanksgiving for the community.
21:41: We're going to let everybody know. We're going to put it out on flyers and pass up the information and post them to things like this.
21:49: And we're going to host Thanksgiving for the community. And no one showed up because we're living in rural, you know, western
22:01: Pennsylvania. And they all had their plans. And the only people that ever took avail were people that were moving.
22:09: They were moving into the community. They saw the sign. And so they took the
22:14: Thanksgiving dinner. We ended up taking all this wonderful cooking that we enjoyed, but we took it down to Erie, to the city mission, because, well, you know, we're going to throw it out.
22:29: We just didn't think about the idea that didn't match the community. And when we come up with plans and we don't look for help from other people, from those who are grown up in the community, who know the community, and oftentimes we think, well, because they've grown up in the community and they're just insults, you know, they're set in their ways.
22:54: They don't know what's going on. They aren't aware of what the Spirit of God is calling me to do.
23:01: I'm the one who's supposed to set the agenda. Well, yes and no.
23:08: I think it's important for a pastor to listen to his people. You can't do anything of worthwhile effect under five years.
23:21: You need to listen to who your people are. Do you know what their backgrounds are? Do you know, you know, what their hurts and what their hopes and what are the problems that they faced?
23:33: If you don't understand the history, then you can't bring them along. And a lot of people just think, well, you know,
23:40: I'm here and I'm going to do the gospel ministry and we're going to go in this particular direction and it will succeed because I have the drive.
23:50: I have the initiative. And, you know, and they're just going to follow along in line with me.
23:57: And some of them are saying in the back of their head, we've already tried that before and it didn't work. And we'd like to say, well, it's because I wasn't leading it.
24:07: But maybe there's something else to be considered. So that's part of the problems that I see with young pastors.
24:16: I was talking to our director of missions about a young man who was having, he was just having real struggles.
24:25: People weren't listening to him, following him. He wanted to do just, you know, I'm trying to be generalized, a certain direction.
24:34: And he got to the point he was going to quit. He just was going to quit because things weren't going the way he thought they should go.
24:43: Fortunately, our dom kind of came alongside of it, said, you know, let's pray about this.
24:50: Let's think about this. And he shared it with me and I was just praying for him because I didn't have an authority to speak into his life.
24:58: But there's a lot to be accomplished with a matter of prayer. And with us on our knees humbled before God, well then
25:08: I think that God starts to open the doors. He puts a man in a place for a reason.
25:15: Yes, it's to share the gospel. Yes, it's to teach people to love one another. But it's the idea that, you know, it's to get them to work together in a wonderful way that can only be described as the function of the direction of the
25:36: Holy Spirit. So, how's that? Well, it sounds good to me. And I'm assuming you would agree with me that the two -sided coin of the issue at hand with that very matter of a pastor, making sure that they listen to the thoughts and ideas and beliefs of others carefully.
26:07: And obviously there is a line to be drawn where you no longer keep an open mind to entertaining something.
26:19: Because heresy abounds. Oh, amen. But what
26:25: I was going to say is while you're being humble and open to hearing what other men have to say, don't we have to make sure as we examine our hearts, especially in this case
26:42: I'm talking about men in the ministry, that they fear God more than man and do not adjust the teaching from the pulpit according to popular opinion in the congregation.
26:58: They cannot be so fearful of being disliked or even being removed from their position that they soften the gospel, they dilute the gospel, they keep their mouths shut about certain vital issues that many pastors are silent over.
27:19: Am I making sense? Oh, absolutely. And it makes me think about my father.
27:27: His life was 1 Corinthians 9 .16. Woe unto me if I preach not the gospel. There are certain things that are certainly non -negotiable and things essential.
27:41: The idea that there is unity and things doubtful liberty, but all things share.
27:48: And so we have to recognize that, again, these two things, to love one another and to share the gospel of Jesus Christ are those two things that identify us as a church.
28:02: And how they manifest themselves in a local congregation are going to be different but still the same message.
28:09: It's still Christ died for sinners. It's still the idea that the love of Christ constrains us, that we are called the greatest example that Jesus tells us, this new commandment, to love one another.
28:23: And that means not the warm fuzzies. It means the idea that we use, and I define love as, of course, a behavior and an action to say who you are and what you've been given.
28:39: Or as God said to Moses, what is in your hand? In other words, he just said a rod.
28:44: But God used that rod. And we think of, oftentimes, we don't know what we have in our hand.
28:51: I think a pastor's responsibility is to find out what is in the hand of their people, to find out what's their gifts, and how can
29:00: I help them to see themselves past the idea of, you know, this barrier of sharing the good news, which seems to be part the enemy and part our own foolishness in connection with how we need to share the love of Christ.
29:18: Does it constrain us to do that? My dad went through a lot of experiences, unfortunately, in that same manner.
29:26: I remember hearing a deacon in one of the churches say, you know, well, if these new people keep on coming in, pretty soon we'll be out of a job.
29:36: We'll be out of office. So they determined they didn't want my father around anymore because people were getting saved, people were coming into the congregation, you know, and the church was growing, but they didn't want to grow.
29:51: They just wanted to have their little social club. So after a year and a half, he was gone.
29:57: Wow. Yeah. So I've seen religion from the backside of the pulpit, and I recognize again that God is good.
30:08: You know, we oftentimes say, you know, ministry is great if it wasn't for the people. But the people are the ministry, and loving people and showing them the love of Christ.
30:22: Romans 2 .4, the portion of the verse is so important to me.
30:30: It says it's the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. And what we need to show to others is the goodness of God.
30:40: You know, it's John 3 .16. God so loved. God gave. And that's what
30:47: I want to share with others and help pastors to see how they need to teach that to their family.
31:02: You and I are given responsibility to be shepherds, to be instructors, to lead in green pastures, to help them to understand that even in the valley of the shadow of death, we can trust the king because he never, ever fails.
31:22: Amen. And we have to— Go ahead. Finish your thought, because we have to go to our first break.
31:28: He's a good master. Amen. Well, we have to go to our first break. If you have a question, please submit it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.
31:37: ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. Don't go away.
31:43: We're going to be right back with John P. Worrell after these messages from our sponsors.
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42:07: We are now back with John P. Worrell. We are discussing, examining the dynamic of principle and opportunity and leadership.
42:18: And if you have a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
42:24: Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. And we do have a listener,
42:31: Tyler in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says, Would you say a strong leader is one who isn't domineering and overbearing, but that a good leader is one who is guided by the
42:44: Holy Spirit and recognizes the strengths in others and puts them in positions that fit those gifts where they can grow?
42:57: Well, you've already addressed some of the first part of what he asked, but the second part of raising up other leaders in the church because you recognize gifts they have,
43:08: I don't think that's something that you specifically addressed yet. So why don't you answer that question of Tyler's?
43:15: It is a good question and makes me think of some of the things that I've had as themes in a devotional book.
43:27: Simply, the simplest definition of leadership is that leaders help others succeed, that as a servant of God, as a shepherd, an under -shepherd, we have to feed the sheep.
43:44: Our purpose is to make sure that the sheep stay alive and that they follow the great shepherd.
43:53: Years ago, I read a book. I wish I could remember its title now, but it laid out something that just resonated with me, and here it is.
44:05: Jesus is prophet, priest, and king. He is the proclaimer of the truth, and he is the one who ministers to our deepest need, and he is our king and soon will be returning.
44:26: So as a pastor, as an under -shepherd, I need to emulate my great shepherd, to be a proclaimer of truth to my congregation, to help them in the times of adversity, to bring comfort from the word of God, and to lead them in the right path.
44:54: But here is the truth, and I have seen it through 50 years of observation of not only myself, but others in ministry.
45:03: You might be good at one thing, and you're okay at the second, but you stink at the third.
45:15: It's just human nature. We are not all things to all men. I know that I'm not everybody's cup of tea.
45:25: Some people, I cannot believe it, but some people don't really care for me.
45:32: They might think I'm too flippant or I'm too direct. A lot of reasons, it just doesn't, the sound of my voice nauseates them.
45:46: I have no idea. But there are some people who sometimes you speak the truth into their life, and they're not ready for it.
45:54: What I have found in connection with ministry is that I know what I'm good at.
46:00: I know what I'm okay at. I also know what I need help with.
46:05: And there's the thing, that a pastor needs to find the people in his congregation who are, as an example for me, mercy givers, who are able to reach out to people in times of need.
46:21: They seem to empathize in understanding how to comfort and care for people.
46:30: I am a crisis manager. I will be ready with you. I will hold your head over the bucket.
46:37: I will help you in your distress. I will bring you along. I'll teach you what you need to know.
46:45: But I'm not going to be there all the time, especially when I've told you what to do and then you ignore it.
46:53: That's something that's difficult for me to be able to say, okay, now
46:58: I've learned. I've learned how to be merciful. In fact, there are a lot of people who always say, oh pastor, you don't need that.
47:06: Oh no, you're the kindest guy I know. I mean, you're just, and I think to myself, you don't get out enough.
47:14: Here's the thing. A pastor has the responsibility of making sure that if he's lacking in something, he's honest with himself and he finds somebody else in the congregation who can assist him in that area.
47:28: It doesn't remove the responsibility, pastor. But it does say that let's be honest and know that you need help too.
47:39: Everybody needs help. Just because you've got that title doesn't mean that you're
47:46: Superman. You're not Superman. All you are is a sinner saved by grace and that you are, you know, you're called to be a shepherd.
48:00: And Jesus knew exactly who you were when you started and he will know what you're going to be when you end.
48:08: You know, he's the author and finisher of our faith. So I say yes.
48:14: A pastor needs to identify people who are in his congregation. And that's one of the things, it's a responsibility.
48:22: It's a difficult thing. Some people, they get so fixed on the idea that I've got to do it all.
48:29: I can't show any weakness. I don't dare show that I'm not good enough to handle this thing or this terrifies me.
48:39: It's just a challenge. I remember the first time
48:45: I went at a hospital call and you could say, well, you know, you knew the person.
48:51: Yes, I did. I was still terrified. The first time I was terrified. I didn't know what to say or how to bring comfort in this situation.
49:01: And, you know, I am praying all the way up the elevator and all the way to the room. And what does
49:07: God give me? His word. And it's still my favorite passage to share with those who are in a bed of affliction.
49:18: Isaiah 26, 3 and 4. I will keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on thee because he trusts in thee.
49:26: Trust in the Lord forever for the Lord Jehovah's everlasting strength. And that's been my go -to.
49:35: I've used it hundreds and hundreds of times because with each person
49:41: I have learned how to share. But I was prepared to do that. And I thank
49:48: God that he's merciful to me. But I've seen other people. I have right now my pastor.
49:54: I love my pastor. And my pastor is one of the most compassionate men
50:01: I've ever met. He is good at sharing the word of God and he is a compassionate man.
50:08: And we know that his influence is on our congregation just to bring people into caring for one another.
50:19: There's a Sunday that goes by where you don't see somebody, you know, they pull someone else aside and they're talking to them and maybe all of a sudden they're bowing their heads and praying for one another.
50:30: It's just a marvelous thing. And I recently lost my wife in March and I can say that my congregation has been so loving, so supportive to me.
50:44: And I believe that's because I have a great pastor who's influenced his congregation for this compassionate ministry.
50:55: So, yes, you know, I've been... I touched on the subject and I'll come back around to it definitely.
51:03: You've got to be aware of who is capable and you've got to find out.
51:10: And how do you find out? You've got to ask questions. You've got to find out what makes these people tick.
51:17: What's in their hand? And how do you encourage them to use it?
51:23: Because compassionate ministry is an essential to the congregation of the family of God.
51:31: So, how's that for you? That's an excellent answer and that's a precious text,
51:37: Isaiah 26, 3. Thou will keep him in perfect peace whose mind has stayed on thee.
51:46: That reminds me of a precious sister in Christ who is now in eternity with Christ, Fern Hill.
51:58: She and her husband, Jerry, several decades ago, founded the
52:04: Timothy Hill Children's Ranch, a home on Long Island, New York in Riverhead, Long Island, for homeless and abused boys.
52:18: And it was named after their son, Timothy, who, at the age of 12, was killed while riding his bicycle to school.
52:34: He was hit by a truck. And the first verse that came into Fern's mind when she heard the horrific news about her first son dying in such a tragic way was that very verse that is your go -to verse,
52:57: Thou will keep him in perfect peace whose mind has stayed on thee. Isaiah 26, 3.
53:04: And that truth prevented Fern from just losing it and falling apart.
53:11: But we have to go to our midway break right now. And if you have any questions for John P.
53:19: Worrell that have to do with his 50 years of pastoral ministry, my email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
53:31: chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the
53:39: USA. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.
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56:59: I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, president emeritus and professor of systematic and applied theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.
57:17: Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the
57:27: Westminster Larger Catechism, titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Morecraft.
57:33: It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.
57:45: Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.
57:56: For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.
58:04: For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,
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58:21: Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you. James White here of Alpha Omega Ministries, announcing that this
58:46: September, I'm heading out to Pennsylvania to speak at two events that my longtime friend
58:51: Chris Arnzen has lined up for me. On Thursday, September 18th, at 11 a .m.,
58:56: I'm speaking to men in ministry leadership at Chris's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pre -Pastor's
59:03: Luncheon at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville. Then, on Sunday, September 21st, at 1 .30
59:10: p .m., I'm speaking at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle on the theme, Can We Trust the
59:16: Bible is the Authentic and Inerrant Word of God? I hope you can join Chris and me for both events.
59:22: For more details on the Pre -Pastor's Luncheon, visit ironsharpensironradio .com.
59:27: That's ironsharpensironradio .com. For more details on Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, visit trbccarlisle .org.
59:38: That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, I'll see you in September in Pennsylvania for these exciting events.
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01:01:03: This is Pastor Bill Souser wishing you all the richest blessings of our
01:01:08: Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.
01:01:48: I hope you experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word and to enthusiastically proclaim
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01:02:20: For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.
01:02:27: That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.
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01:07:07: Well, before I return to my guest today, John P. Worrell, and our conversation on examining the dynamic of principle and opportunity in leadership,
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01:10:08: Earth, I have been able to help many people spanning the globe in the Iron, Sharp, and Zion Radio audience find churches, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live, that are biblically faithful.
01:10:20: So, if you are without a church home, no matter where on the planet Earth you live, please send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail dot com and put
01:10:30: I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can submit a question to John P.
01:10:36: Worrell on anything in regard to his 50 years of pastoral experience.
01:10:45: That's chrisarnsen at gmail dot com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.
01:10:52: Just out of curiosity, John, your second book, your latest book, The Second Man, examining the dynamic of principle and opportunity in leadership, please explain the title,
01:11:03: The Second Man. Well, I've always been fascinated with Jill Webb.
01:11:10: I've always kind of had a secret admiration... admiration.
01:11:15: Thank you. Happens to me all the time. It wasn't coming out.
01:11:23: Maybe that's a senior moment. I don't know. It was just the thought of a relationship.
01:11:32: It excited me. And then what I found, when I started looking around and saying, well, has anybody else covered this subject?
01:11:40: And to my knowledge, nobody else has. Now, I'm sure that people talk about David and, you know, expanded on this situation, but the relationship between these two men.
01:11:54: David, we could say is a man of principle. I think that we, you know, for overall, as God says of him, a man after his own heart.
01:12:05: But Jill Webb is a man of opportunity, even though he is his nephew.
01:12:12: You know, it's demonstrated over and over again, especially with the killing of Amasa and Abner.
01:12:20: The opportunity came. I don't think it's either one of those cases that Jill Webb got up in the morning.
01:12:28: He said, I'm going to kill my cousin, you know, or I'm going to kill
01:12:33: Abner today. It's just that the opportunity came and he took it.
01:12:40: They're really outside of our cultural experience and shocking as it may seem.
01:12:47: So I talk about this challenge. All the time that Jill Webb was working closely with David, he was governed by David's principle.
01:12:59: There was a man of, you know, basically, as it was demonstrated, where David had two opportunities to kill
01:13:07: Saul and he didn't take them because he had a principle. You touch not the
01:13:13: Lord's anointed. Even though, as I say, Jill Webb's brother was there.
01:13:22: He said, you know, he makes a statement, which is, I'm sure, real. He says, you know,
01:13:28: I'll only strike him once. I don't need to do it twice. I'll just, you know, stick him to the ground and that will be done with the matter.
01:13:35: We recognize that this other brother was one of David's valiant men, but their families were different and their natures were different.
01:13:51: The conflict between these two things comes out in this striking contrast about how they deal with life.
01:14:04: Jill Webb, of course, when we think about the rebellion of Absalom and how
01:14:13: Jill Webb dealt with Absalom when David said, don't do it,
01:14:21: Jill Webb took the opportunity and removed a problem. My book, we talk about those in detail.
01:14:30: And I take every time we could see David and Jill Webb in the same picture, in the same text area, we're talking about this comparison.
01:14:44: Now, they're short chapters, 17 of them. And I try with an unusual title base for each chapter to bring out the main idea.
01:14:57: And then at the end of every chapter, I have discussion and application questions.
01:15:04: And here's the thing, and some of your readers might, or your listeners might be, oh, he did what?
01:15:11: I said, I used Microsoft's pilot to create those questions based on the text.
01:15:23: And I was surprised. I just thought, I'll give it a try. I'll give it a try. The pilot is an
01:15:29: AI. And it came out exactly the way I wanted it. They weren't weird.
01:15:36: They weren't off base. They were focused in on the idea of the differences between these two and how do you compare that with your work or with your ministry?
01:15:49: And it's just the thing. One of the things I'd like to emphasize is that in a work circumstance, in a ministry circumstance, you're going to have people of different core values.
01:16:07: You say, well, everybody loves Jesus, right? Otherwise they shouldn't be working there. Or everybody's committed to the gospel and to the authority of the word of God.
01:16:16: And absolutely. But you'll find out that there are core values that are different in people.
01:16:23: And the challenge is working with these people. Knowing how to, by the spirit of God, to direct them, to guide them, to be people who are operating under the principles of the word of God and not just off of opportunity.
01:16:47: It's something that it's really just, I got all excited about the whole thing and the chapters came out faster than I thought they ever would.
01:17:02: That's some of this little book. When you're comparing the first one, that's 366 different pages of devotionals along with an index for all the scripture references and then you've got 83 pages of the next one.
01:17:19: It's a little different. Okay, we have a listener named
01:17:27: Wendy in Cornelius, North Carolina. Wow. Wendy wants to know, what is the most common problem you see in leaders today that you have encountered in your 50 plus years of pastoral ministry?
01:17:48: Common problem. Wow. Somebody could interpret that two different ways.
01:17:57: One could be a problem with the leader, like a flaw, or it could be problems that the leader encounters in the congregation.
01:18:07: So I don't know which one Wendy means. Maybe Wendy can clarify. Well, we can address both of them.
01:18:13: Yeah, sure, go ahead. Let's take the congregation side, first of all. We know by all the supposedly polls that have been done in churches that over 65 % of the people in evangelical churches don't believe in the authority of the word of God.
01:18:37: And that is a problem. And this is a definite difficulty.
01:18:46: We don't think that God means what he says. One of the things
01:18:52: I love to emphasize to people is that Jesus never lies. That he never uses falsehood to tell the truth.
01:19:02: It's just like what John says in 1 John 2, that no lie is of the truth.
01:19:10: So Jesus is never going to use a lie It's like the, I was thinking about it the other day of Luke 16, where it talks about the story of the rich man and Lazarus.
01:19:24: Some people think of it as a parable. And I suppose, you know, if you want to think of it as a parable, you can.
01:19:32: But I don't. I think it is something that Jesus shares with us. There are several reasons.
01:19:39: But even if you consider it a parable, think about this. In fact, Jesus very rarely, in fact,
01:19:44: I don't think he ever mentioned a fictitious character by name in a parable.
01:19:50: Oh, yes. No, I don't recall of any other incident where he put a name.
01:19:57: He just said a woman or a man. No talks about that situation. Right, Lazarus.
01:20:05: And that's another reason why I believe that this is a true account. And then how does
01:20:11: Jesus know? Well, because he's Jesus, because he knows these things.
01:20:17: But he tells about the, you know, the idea of eternal torment and other things and makes it very plain that there are consequences to sinful behavior, that it cannot be avoided, that there is no second opportunity, and that there is what
01:20:39: I, one of the things I really enjoy in examining that story is the fact that there is consciousness in life after this existence.
01:20:53: We live in the shadow, in the veil of tears. We look forward to our life in, you know, in the future.
01:21:03: But one of the things I love to remind everyone is what John tells us in 1
01:21:10: John 5. This is the record that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his
01:21:17: Son. He that has the Son has life, and he that has not the
01:21:22: Son of God has not life. When we think about that, my eternal life has already begun because I have
01:21:31: Jesus as my personal Savior. It doesn't begin when I die from this physical world.
01:21:37: No, it means that I have eternal life right now because Jesus is eternal life.
01:21:47: And it's referred to over and over again throughout the Gospels, the idea that it's not a condition that we accept or a principle that we adhere to, that we accept the person of Christ, and he is eternal life.
01:22:05: I believe that the biggest problem that our churches face is because there is ignorance or willful ignorance of the
01:22:14: Word of God and reminds me once more of my responsibility to communicate the truth.
01:22:23: It's just like Michael Card says in his song, so many books, so little time. So, you know, so many hungry, so many blind.
01:22:34: It's just the responsibility, the privilege that we have of communicating truth of the
01:22:42: Gospel. How wonderful. I was looking at this devotional
01:22:50: I'm going to share tomorrow in our pastors meeting. I just was reading Leviticus chapter one, and it never hit me before.
01:22:58: I knew that the sacrifice was brought to the temple door and you put your hand on the head of the sacrifice indicating that this is for you.
01:23:10: And I knew that this seeker brought a knife that cut the throat of the animal, but I never caught the idea before that actually he's the one that flays the animal.
01:23:25: It puts it all, cuts them all up so that the priest can then put them on the fire. And it really hit me that, you know, this is a bloody circumstance.
01:23:37: This has got to be. I've never butchered an animal. I don't want to.
01:23:45: I'm not interested. I am so, so thankful that Jesus died once and for all.
01:23:54: I love my Savior that he has done this for me.
01:24:00: I don't have to do that ever because he did it all for me.
01:24:07: And he gave his body as a sacrifice. He willingly went to the cross in my place for my sin.
01:24:17: I'm so, so glad. The second issue,
01:24:23: I don't know if it's the most serious or the biggest thing in connection with dealing with pastors, that I know very few men.
01:24:35: I have never honestly heard stories that relate to the idea of the instruction of Matthew 16.
01:24:45: I think it's Matthew 16. And the idea of dealing with someone, you know, some spiritual problem, you know, go to them privately and, you know, take somebody else and then take them before the church.
01:24:58: I know very few people have ever followed through on that. And I think that pastors oftentimes are really, we need a connection with discipline.
01:25:09: And I wish I could say that I'm not part of that group, but I think that there are times when
01:25:16: I have sought to avoid any circumstance where I had to publicly discipline somebody.
01:25:24: But I think it's important, you know, Paul says to us, he says, you know, those that sin repute before all, that all may fear.
01:25:34: And we have a lot of sin in the camp that never gets acknowledged.
01:25:40: That's just kind of overlooked. And we can't believe that our
01:25:47: King is pleased with that kind of discipline in his kingdom.
01:25:54: I just, that strikes me. While you were doing commercials,
01:25:59: I was looking through my devotional book and I found that one particular, and I thought, oh, we could talk about that.
01:26:08: So there's two. Yeah. Just want to remind our listeners,
01:26:15: I know those of you who listen regularly have heard this quite often from me, but I believe church discipline saved my life.
01:26:26: Literally, I was a drunkard. After 18 years of sobriety,
01:26:34: I dived back into the sin of habitual drunkenness.
01:26:41: And if I had not been confronted by loving elders and placed under discipline and gone to a
01:26:54: Christian addiction recovery ministry in Boone, North Carolina, whose phrases
01:27:02: I sing every chance I get, Hebron Colony. If I had not done that,
01:27:08: I really believe that the likelihood is I'd be dead. My drinking had excelled to that level of alcohol consumption.
01:27:23: And let me just plug Hebron Colony's website, Hebron Colony. HebronColony .org,
01:27:30: HebronColony .org. So people should not be terrified of being disciplined, and they should be more terrified of the consequences of their sin than of discipline, because discipline is intended to rescue you, to restore you.
01:27:53: Absolutely. And there's the thing that people forget, that they think it's destruction. It's not destruction.
01:27:59: It's restoration. But you have to have the right motives. I mean,
01:28:05: Paul warns us that in Galatians, the idea that, you know, you that are spiritual, restore such as one in the spirit of meekness.
01:28:15: We think about, to me, one of the most frightening verses is
01:28:20: Psalm 66, verse 18. If I regard iniquity in my heart, the
01:28:26: Lord will not hear. That should scare everybody. Amen.
01:28:33: Unfortunately, David says, but the Lord has heard. Amen. And of course, when you said that we are to bring the sins of our brethren to the church, obviously, knowing that you are a biblically -minded man,
01:28:51: I know that you believe that the protocol, the God -breathed protocol in Matthew 18 has to be followed in 15 through 20.
01:29:01: If a brother says against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
01:29:07: If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
01:29:18: If he refuses to listen, then tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a
01:29:30: Gentile and a tax collector. In other words, an outcast.
01:29:36: And that's where excommunication comes into play. And even that is an act of love, because you hope that that act will drive a person to remorse, to genuine remorse and repentance over their sins, so that they can return and be welcomed back into fellowship.
01:29:58: Now, obviously, there are certain sins that render a man in ministry no longer above approach.
01:30:08: So he doesn't necessarily get reinstated to a position of leadership, but he can be reestablished and welcomed back into a membership position in the church with open arms.
01:30:29: We have to go to our final break. And if anybody has a question, please submit it to ChrisOrenson at gmail .com.
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01:40:48: And we have Chuck in Bullhead City, Arizona.
01:40:55: Chuck wants to know, what words of encouragement do you have for pastors that may be going through a season of depression, perhaps feeling as if they are failures, perhaps because the church has not grown as they had hoped, or a multitude of other reasons that they may be facing as a minister of the gospel?
01:41:25: My favorite portion of Scripture in connection with that is after he has…
01:41:43: You're breaking up a little bit, brother. Are you there, brother?
01:41:52: You're breaking up. I'm still here. Can you hear me? Yeah, but you have been breaking up.
01:42:00: I was moving the book on the table. I think it causes the adversity. In 1
01:42:09: Kings 19, where it talks about this conflict between Elijah and the prophets of Baal, and then following that, of course, he is threatened by Jezebel.
01:42:20: And through that threatening, he gets… he despairs.
01:42:27: And there's a wonderful pattern in connection with not only identifying the steps of depression, but also of God's dealing with Elijah's depression.
01:42:41: And time doesn't permit me to open up the passage the way I would like to.
01:42:48: But let me do a selfless promotion in connection with…
01:42:58: This detailed presentation is found in my first book, Not the
01:43:04: Center of the Universe. And is it all right to tell where they get the book?
01:43:12: Of course. Okay. Well, you can't get it from Christian book distributors, but it is also available on Amazon.
01:43:20: And both books are available on Amazon right now. I still have to work with Christian book distributors to get the second book under there, you know, for them to notice it and want to post it.
01:43:36: It's just… everything is a process.
01:43:43: When you think about the sin of Achan, we know that his sin was a process.
01:43:49: He said, I saw, I coveted, I took, I hid. Righteousness is a process.
01:43:59: We go from the known to the unknown, and we change through our new knowledge, we change our attitude, and from our attitude, we change our behavior.
01:44:10: And the depression can be caused by many different things. It's not always just the circumstances of life.
01:44:18: It would be foolish for us to think about it, you know, just it's the adversity of the time.
01:44:24: Some people have chemical imbalances. I mean, you think about William Cowper, who's a great hymn writer.
01:44:32: But the man was subject to tremendous depression. But he wrote such beautiful songs. Attempted suicide.
01:44:39: Oh, yes, I know at least once. It's just fascinating to think about that.
01:44:46: Could they have helped him today? Perhaps. What is a chemical imbalance? I don't know.
01:44:52: But I know that God sustains, and I know that in depression, he works through process.
01:45:00: And it's important for us to recognize that there are certain things that we need to do in order to follow this process of getting back to, say, to the place where we can feel good about ourselves, we can feel good in connection with our ministry.
01:45:19: You know, I consider being a pastor one of the greatest privileges of my life. It's not a job.
01:45:27: It's been a calling for me. That's why I bristle at the word retired, because I'm not retired.
01:45:35: If I was retired, I'd be dead. I'd be home. But I'm not.
01:45:41: My task has been reassigned. I have a different role. I still have a responsibility.
01:45:48: To be able to carry on with those things when we're depressed is difficult.
01:45:54: We should never minimize people's angst, anxieties, their difficulties.
01:46:01: But I believe that our God understands, and I know that he can help them if they're willing to look to his word and trust in his spirit and recognize that God brings people into our lives for reasons.
01:46:18: I have a heart condition, and I've had to, you know, fathers have to, as I like to say, kick me in the pants to say, you know, these people are people of goodwill.
01:46:32: They are there to help you, and you need to pay attention to what they have to say.
01:46:38: That doesn't mean that they're the all -knowing, all -seeing gods, you know, because medicine is an art, not a science.
01:46:47: To understand, I had to learn to trust, to rely upon other people.
01:46:58: People in ministry become depressed because they are alone. I thought this about my father.
01:47:07: My dad didn't have, as I knew, any friends besides his wife, and wonderful woman that she was.
01:47:16: But my mother, no woman can fully minister to a man's psyche.
01:47:24: It's just not the way that God has designed us, you know. There are some things that a guy can't do for his wife.
01:47:30: There are some things that a wife can't do for her husband. You may get some letters on that one,
01:47:36: I don't know. But my observation is this, that, you know, iron sharpens iron, and we need oftentimes to have someone else speak into our life, to help us to understand we're not in control of everything.
01:47:53: I'm not the center of the universe. I can't fix everything.
01:47:59: There are some people, I have a favorite phrase, you know, you want to be able to help everybody, you can't.
01:48:06: Not everybody belongs on the bus, at least not your bus. You think about John Mark, right?
01:48:14: Mark, who wrote the gospel, just a wonderful instrument of God's goodness.
01:48:22: But when he was with Paul and Barnabas, Paul was not the guy for Mark.
01:48:30: And it took a Barnabas to help Mark to eventually grow up and be the kind of servant he was.
01:48:38: Because later on, of course, Paul says, you know, Mark, he's necessary for me in the gospel.
01:48:46: But it wasn't Paul who was going to bring him along. It had to be
01:48:51: Barnabas. And so I would say this, the same thing to pastors who think that they're depressed because they can't make things work.
01:49:06: They need to step back and say, you know, Father, I can't make it.
01:49:13: I'm not the guy. And maybe Father's telling you he's going to change your venue.
01:49:21: But that's not always the case. Geographic revivals are not always the case for spiritual problems.
01:49:33: There's something, well, I'll just go to another church. And a lot of Christians do that. We, you know, of course, from the pulpit, we call them church grasshoppers.
01:49:44: But, you know, when a guy can't stay in one place for any length of time, maybe more than two and a half years, that's the average.
01:49:53: From what I understand, that's the average ministry length for most pastors.
01:49:59: Two and a half years. What have you learned except to be frustrated? That's just not going to do it.
01:50:09: I don't know if I've answered your question or not. Yeah, definitely. OK, good, good.
01:50:18: Let's see here. We have
01:50:23: Carlo in Halesite, Long Island, New York.
01:50:31: And Carlo asks the question that is a very good hinge for the other question.
01:50:43: What ways do you recommend that members of a congregation further lift up our pastors and encourage them?
01:50:56: I believe in the ministry of encouragement. I think that pastors need to have a pat on the back every once in a while.
01:51:06: You know, we joke about roast preacher. But how often do we encourage that man?
01:51:15: More than just a good servant pastor as you go out the door. But do we recognize the problems that he faces if he's got children?
01:51:27: Well, there's, you know, a lot of difficulty. I used to say my wife was a widow on Sunday morning because I was totally occupied with what
01:51:36: I had to do for that day. And she had to take care of the kids. And taking care of six kids after a while was, you know,
01:51:44: Sunday night would come along and I was finishing the message. And I'd say to her, because she had all the kids in the back, you know, in the back row.
01:51:53: And I'd say to her, I says, well, what did you think of the message? And she looked at me and she said, what message? She's just she was so busy writing to her that it was impossible for her to hear what
01:52:07: I shared that day. And I understand. I think that pastors need encouragement.
01:52:17: I think that they need encouragement from physical ways, that they need understanding that they make mistakes.
01:52:24: How often, you know, I see church members who, you know, they want to be forgiven.
01:52:30: They want to be understood. They want to be recognized for the problems they face. But I felt the same thing when
01:52:37: I failed, when I made a mistake, when I did something that disappointed or disillusioned someone.
01:52:44: Do they give me the same break? Do they have the same care for me as I'm supposed to have for them?
01:52:51: Well, as far as I understood, I was part of the body of Christ just as like everybody else. And I needed that same kind of encouragement or forgiveness to say, you know, but what do we do?
01:53:05: Well, we're very, very good at shooting our wounded. Very good. We have in my church family, we have a man who was the pastor of our church.
01:53:20: And he got into drug abuse. He lost his ministry. They asked him to resign.
01:53:27: And for years, he didn't go to church. He didn't want anything to do with church at all.
01:53:33: And he had a very minimalistic approach. But his wife and his mother -in -law still kept on coming to church.
01:53:41: And God brought him in contact with my present pastor. And through him,
01:53:47: God restored this man. And I'm talking about restored. I'm talking about the idea that he's a faithful servant.
01:53:55: We've had him teach in Sunday school classes, preach a couple times for special circumstances.
01:54:02: God has done a wonderful work because we bothered to reclaim him, to care for him, to not throw him on the garbage heap just because he made a mistake, because he disappointed us.
01:54:16: I tell people as often as I can. I've already done it on this program.
01:54:21: I love my pastor. I am glad for this man. I know his faults.
01:54:27: I know the things that he's not so good at. It doesn't make a difference. Because God made him that way, and I'm not going to be able to change him.
01:54:38: I'm just going to pray for him. I'm going to encourage him. I want him to be the best he can be, because when he's good, then
01:54:47: I am blessed. So I say to people, you know, recognize that your pastor is a human being, puts on his pants the same way you do.
01:54:59: It's just the truth. I love that phrase because my uncle, one of my uncles in World War II, he was a specialty driver for people who were in the, you know, the spy game in the circumstance.
01:55:17: And he told me one time, he says, well, I've had several times when I was at dinner with Winston Churchill.
01:55:26: And I go, you were at dinner with Winston Churchill? That's amazing.
01:55:31: He looked at me and says, John, he puts his pants on the same way you do. I'll encourage you.
01:55:43: Find out ways that you can bless him. My pastor is a railroad, miniature railroad enthusiast and an artist supreme.
01:55:55: He makes buildings. He's always supplementing his income. He made buildings for railroad system, beautiful pieces of work.
01:56:05: And, you know, that's the way he comforts himself, you know, gives him something else to do besides thinking about the next sermon.
01:56:15: But, you know, he does a great job. I tell him I love to see it. He takes me down there and is just enthusiastic as a little boy talking about all these things.
01:56:26: And, you know, we need to find out what makes our pastor happy. What brings him joy?
01:56:33: How can we help him? It takes time, but it's worth it.
01:56:41: Well, since you've been raving about your pastor, why don't you give him and your church a plug? Let our listeners know the name and location.
01:56:50: His name is Richard Krieg. And the church is Redland Baptist Church in New Cumberland, Pennsylvania.
01:57:01: Praise God. And I always love to plug good churches to our listeners.
01:57:08: And the website, if you live near New Cumberland, is redlandbc .net.
01:57:16: Redlandbc .net. Well, I want to also remind our listeners that the two books that have been written by my guest today,
01:57:26: Rev. John P. Worrell, are Not the Center of the Universe, a yearly devotional for those in Christian ministry, and also his latest book,
01:57:37: The Second Man, Examining the Dynamic of Principle and Opportunity in Leadership.
01:57:42: And you can get both of them at Amazon. And just type in the search engine
01:57:48: WORRALL. That's WORRALL for John P.
01:57:56: Worrell. It's been a true joy, John, to have you on the program. Boy, thank you so much,
01:58:03: Chris. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. I really enjoyed having lunch with you recently and having the providential opportunity to meet you and make your acquaintance.
01:58:16: And I hope that you're able to make it out to the pastor's luncheon. Well, we'll give it a try.
01:58:22: We'll keep up promoting it, too. Great. Well, thank all of you for listening today.
01:58:29: Don't forget that Iron Trip and Zion Radio does need your financial support. So please go to irontripandzionradio .com,
01:58:37: click support, then click click to donate now. That's irontripandzionradio .com,
01:58:43: click support, then click click to donate now. And I want each and every one of you to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater
01:58:55: Savior than you are a sinner. Amen.