April 29, 2026 Show with Dr. Keith Evans on “Developing an Awareness of the Demonic in Biblical Counseling” (Part 2)

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 29th day of April, 2026.

And I'm thrilled to have a returning guest today. Some of you may have heard, and maybe many of you have not heard, part one of our discussion, which took place on Wednesday, April 15th.

And this program was a required program because we had so much to say last time during part one that I knew right near the beginning of part one that we were going to require part two of that discussion, and that discussion is developing an awareness of the demonic and biblical counseling in conversation with William Perkins, which is the title of my guest's doctoral dissertation.

His name is Dr. Keith Evans, Associate Professor of Christian Counseling at Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina, a former director of the

Biblical Counseling Institute, and academic dean at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

And we are not only going to be addressing his doctoral dissertation, or continuing to, on developing an awareness of the demonic and biblical counseling, but we're also going to spend more time than part one allowed because of time restraints to discuss the

Roman Catholic exorcist and priest, Chad Ripperger, who has been making the rounds of the most highly viewed podcasts, and he has literally—this is not hyperbole—had millions of viewers hearing him give his explanation of exorcism and giving his own story as an exorcist.

It's very problematic for those of us who love God's Word, who love the gospel of Jesus Christ, perhaps even especially those of us who are theologically

Reformed on top of that, because Chad Ripperger is, being a traditionalist

Roman Catholic, he is an idolater and a necromancer, even allegedly summoning the deceased saints to cooperate with him in his exorcist rites.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back for part two of this discussion, Dr. Keith Evans.

Thank you so much for having me. Great to be back. And let's jump right into Dr.

Chad—or should I say Chad Ripperger? I don't know where I get the doctor from. He may be a doctor,

I don't know. He does have a PhD. Okay. Well, let's jump right into Chad Ripperger, who, as we said in our last program, he was actually the catalyst for me to do this interview, or these interviews, plural, with you, because of the fact that he has been on two of the most—at least two—of the most highly viewed podcasts,

Tucker Carlson's podcast and Sean Ryan's podcast, and they gave this man hours of time to titillate the imagination and strike fear in the hearts and minds of those viewing these interviews.

And we, as I was saying already, have problems with this because the man is not a representative of biblical

Christianity. But if you could explain what you know about Chad Ripperger again.

I mean, I'm sure that there's a number of people listening today that did not hear you two weeks ago for part one of this.

So give a summary of who Chad Ripperger is and go straight into the primary concerns that you have with him that you had detected while watching him for hours.

I think you said six hours. May have even exceeded that since then. But tell us about Chad Ripperger.

Yeah. So as you said, Chris, he's a Roman Catholic priest and exorcist and a bit of a self -avowed expert in this particular space of spiritual warfare and the demonic.

And as he finds himself on Sean Ryan's podcast, he has four hours of treatment there about his experiences.

And Tucker Carlson's podcast, coming up on two hours of a treatment there with Tucker Carlson.

And the last time I checked, he has about four million views with Sean Ryan and he has about two million views with Tucker Carlson.

So this is certainly making a significant headway currently, contemporarily.

I've even had students come up to me and ask me. I've had former students emailing me and saying, what do you know about this guy?

So it's obviously capturing the minds and imaginations of people today.

He's written several books in this space. And as we were just kind of wrestling, is he a doctor or is he not?

A moment ago, he does have a doctorate in this particular space as well. So he's a Roman Catholic scholar.

He's a Thomas Aquinas scholar, and he's applying his understanding of Thomas Aquinas to the field of spiritual warfare, to the space of exorcism.

And he has accounts of hours upon hours, case after case, probably thousands of cases, seemingly, that he's summarizing of various exorcisms that he has engaged in.

And so then you queued me up there. What are some of the problems that I'm seeing or what are some of the concerns that I'm seeing with Father Rippiger's treatment here?

Well, first, I think that it's very attractive to the modern mind, right?

America is becoming less and less religious and more and more spiritual, as that's been documented.

And what kind of spirituality is that if people aren't finding themselves in faithful Bible -believing churches anywhere near as much as they did historically in America?

It's kind of like a grassroots spiritualism. It's like whatever goes kind of spirituality.

And so you find some spirituality on the Internet. Wow, that's fascinating. Or you come up against your own experience of the bizarre.

What do I make of that? And then you hear this four -hour podcast on a popular platform. And so you borrow some of that spirituality for your own experience.

And I think that kind of grassroots approach is what's really dangerous here, because Father Rippiger sounds really knowledgeable.

I think you mentioned last time we were together, he has an encyclopedic knowledge. I mean, the way the man speaks is so clear, so plain.

He speaks with such an authority. And it almost has kind of a common -sense approach to the spiritual realms, even though when you dig into it, it is

Roman Catholic from top to bottom. But I think that that's what's so dangerous. I also think he's weaving, as is the case with the evil one from the very beginning, he's weaving truth with error.

And so you hear some claims in these podcasts that really do strike to some of the claims of Christianity, some of the claims of the

Bible as well. So he has some foundational claims about demons that Western churches largely overlook, the exorcisms in the scriptures, what do we do about that?

That psychology has largely displaced spiritual explanations for things.

And so there's an aspect that the listener hears that and they're like, yeah, that's right. Why don't we talk about this stuff?

And yeah, there are demons. Demons are real. And how do we make sense of that in our contemporary setting? Well, here, enter

Father Rippiger speaking to that. And I do think that that captures the hearts of listeners.

So you had told me, I can't remember if it was on air or off the air, after or during the part one of this discussion two weeks ago, but you said that you had only discussed two of 10 major problems you saw and heard from those interviews that Sean Ryan had, or perhaps it was one long interview that Sean Ryan had with Chad Rippiger.

And I said, well, we've got to do this part two then and have you give all of those highlights of Rippiger's most problematic claims and comments.

And so because of the fact that there are many people who haven't heard part one from two weeks ago,

I think you should just go through all of them, even if we're doing a little bit of a repetitive interview by examining things that you've already addressed.

But I think it's worth it, especially since, as you've already stated, there are millions, literally millions of people who are watching this man speak and promote what he does.

And who knows what kind of falsehoods and even dangerous falsehoods people may begin to embrace as a result of believing this man is a true authority on the demonic realm.

So just pick up from there and start listing some of these most problematic and aberrant claims.

Yeah, absolutely. The first one kind of relates to what I was just saying a moment ago of weaving truth with error.

He argues that Christ's ministry of casting out demons is central to his mission and central to the

Gospels, and Western churches have wrongly marginalized that theme.

And it's been observed that in John's gospel, the gospel of John, there are no exorcisms except for one mention in John 12.

And it's not a regular exorcism that we would think of, but Jesus says, the time for judging this world has come when

Satan, the ruler of this world, will be cast out. So there's one exorcism in John's gospel, and it's

Christ's crosswork. He picks up that same theme in John 16 as well later.

So this notion of Jesus has come to destroy the works of the devil.

So Rippiger is picking up on that and he's saying, look, Western churches have overlooked that. And I say, yea and amen.

I think we have overlooked an aspect that's central to Christ's work is to tear down the works of the devil and to plunder the strong man and to despoil him of his treasures.

That is particularly people that were being brought from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of his beloved son.

And so there is a marginalization of that in the Western church. But then

Rippiger's solution is, well, exorcisms. That we've lost this place of actually having direct encounters with binding in the name of Christ and casting out and loosing people from particular bondage of devils.

So there's a right diagnosis like, hey, we've overlooked this central theme, but a wrong solution as far as now what we need is

Roman Catholic confrontational exorcisms. And instead of his proposed solution,

I think of one evangelical scholar. His name is Graham Cole.

He says, I'm not exactly on speaking terms with Satan. A tongue -in -cheek way of saying, we're not having in Reformed and Evangelical Christianity, we're not having these direct confrontations where we're naming the name of demons and we're binding and we're casting out and having these power encounters.

That's not the stuff of Reformed theology. And I don't say that just because of tradition. I say that because that's not what the scriptures teach.

So Rippiger is erratically diagnosing overlooking a central theme, but wrongly providing a

Roman Catholic solution or a Pentecostal solution of direct exorcism. So that was my first point.

And one of the things, I don't know if this was one of your points that I heard him say, when asked by Tucker Carlson in his interview,

Tucker asked, can someone who is demon -possessed, well, actually, he said, can an exorcist cast out demons of someone who is demon -possessed without their permission?

And Rippiger said, no, because God always honors the free will of man, which is insane when you think about it, because number one,

Jesus never asked for permission to do anything, let alone cast out demons. And how did the demons get into this person to begin with?

I know that he did say, and I'm assuming this is true, that there are people who intentionally invite demons into their soul, people who are heavily involved in the occult and overt devil worship and so on.

But I'm sure most people that have literally become demon -possessed didn't want that to happen.

So isn't this just a contradiction that God always respects and honors the free will of man?

Yeah, absolutely. We were talking about that last time a bit, too, that I am so thankful to the

Lord that he didn't respect my free will of shaking my fist for all of eternity at the

Lord. But by his free grace, he irresistibly called me unto Christ.

And, you know, in my sinful nature, I go kicking and screaming. But as far as how I experienced that in time,

I saw the beauty of Christ, the loveliness of Christ, and placed my faith in him.

But it's the Holy Spirit who worked that in me, worked that in me contrary to my natural will, which was bent against Christ forever.

And so the notion of, well, God always respects the free will of the person, well, that would result in all of humanity ending up in hell forever.

Yeah, so thanks be to God that he doesn't honor our free will. So, I mean, that's certainly—that notion there is a slash at the vitals of Reformed theology.

Now, before you go on to another one of your own points that you had to warn about regarding Chad Rippiger, he seemed to at least—well, probably in actually both interviews with both

Tucker and Sean Ryan—he seemed to insinuate that Hollywood's version of demon possession is accurate.

Because he was asked by one of those guests—one of those hosts, I mean—you know, is it like in the movies?

And he said, oh, I've seen it all, everything you've seen in the movie. And then he just made one clarification.

I never saw a demoniac turn his head around 360 degrees, but everything else seemed to be fair game.

Do you believe that that is truthful, even in your own understanding and experience about the demonic realm?

One of the points that I do have of my 10 points of concern is that point, is that he gives a lot of credence to a

Hollywood notion or a theatrical notion of the demonic. And I think that The Other Kingdom just loves that, right?

That there's almost a coddling evil and a playful or cartoonish nature of evil.

The way he describes certain things that he's experienced—morphing, that someone's face changes from one sex to another, from a woman to a man, significant voice changes, blackened or rolled back eyes, taking on the appearance of an animal, levitation.

And it's fascinating. His account actually seems to contradict itself, because then when asked, have you actually seen someone turn into an animal?

Well, I heard that from an account of one of my mentors. I didn't actually see it myself. So there's a seeming inconsistency to some of his statements and claims.

I think he did say that he saw a woman's face distorted to the point that it looked exactly like a man or something.

Didn't he say that? Yeah, he did say that he saw that. Yeah, I meant particularly the animal. When Sean Ryan asked him about that, he said, well, no,

I heard that from one of my mentors. But there's a little bit of hemming and hawing at that point. My point wasn't to say that that's like a strong contradiction, but just to say that there does seem to be some inconsistencies in what he's sharing and giving, again, a credence to a

Hollywood or theatrical understanding. Now, I did my study on the Puritans, and we talked about that at length last time

I was on, Chris. But as you hear the Puritans talk about the demonic and the other kingdom, it does not sound like Hollywood.

It talks about how do we discern the kingdom of darkness, and it's that which is contrary to the kingdom of Christ.

They exegete, they unpack Ephesians 6 of a fiery dart.

And what's a fiery dart? That these things are sudden and they're contrary to our desires or they're unnatural or they're frightful, like a fiery dart, right?

You listen to the Puritans just mining the scriptures, and it also fits with lived experience.

I talked to soccer moms who have the bizarre experience of driving their minivan across a bridge and just suddenly out of nowhere they have the suggestion to turn the minivan off the bridge and to, like, kill them and their family.

They're like, what on earth? I don't want to do that. And it's just this sudden, out -of -nowhere experience.

And that's what the Puritans say. Well, this is how we can tell it has the hallmarks of the other kingdom, that it's sudden, contrary to the nature of Christ, contrary to our natural desires, and so forth.

That is far different than what Rippeger is talking about in some of his encounters. And I myself,

I've counseled a number of folks. I think I shared the story last week of someone who was—or last time

I was on—of somebody who was actually seeking demon possession in order to protect her and her family.

And there were not theatrics. There was not the Hollywood notion of, you know, the exorcist that would come to mind by any means.

It looked like a normal conversation between two people in a pastor's office and reading of Scripture and prayer.

Now, were there intense times? And were there things that were strange and odd about that?

Sure, but not in a theatrical sense. I mean, staring daggers at me anytime

I read Scripture or keeping her eyes open while I pray and looking hatefully and reproachfully at me while I pray, that's very different than what

Rippeger is talking about. Now, as far as some theatrics or things that you would describe that way that may be genuine,

John MacArthur, the late John MacArthur—I don't know if you've ever read this account of his—and you're talking, folks, about a very strong cessationist.

He's a world -renowned cessationist, meaning he does not believe in the supernatural gifts that the apostles had being present today.

And he, as a younger pastor, was involved in an exorcism.

He was asked to participate in an exorcism, and the person was a young person,

I think female. I don't know that 100 % with certainty. But this young person, according to MacArthur, that he saw with his own eyes, had superhuman strength and was throwing grown men across the room and things like that.

And he never participated in an exorcism again for the rest of his ministry.

He was just totally terrified by what he witnessed, and he just knew that that wasn't something for him.

And according to your last interview on this show, you don't believe in modern -day exorcists, just like you don't believe in modern -day healers.

Even though God heals in the 21st century, there are not healers like the apostles were.

So what do you make of that? Do you think that that was a genuine example of a demon -possessed person who did indeed have superhuman strength?

Well, we see that notion attested to in the Scriptures plainly, like in the book of Acts, with the seven sons of Sceva, the man possessed by demons is able to best seven grown men so that they run out beaten and bloodied and naked, which

I think there is a little bit of a divine sense of humor in that story. These Jewish exorcists who are claiming the name of Christ and claiming the name of Paul opportunistically, and they run out naked, they're bested by this demon.

But there's superhuman strength there. The demoniac who breaks his chains and no one can bind him.

So yeah, superhuman strength is certainly attested to in the Scriptures. And I do think that there is a deception that takes place around the world by demons, by devils, that play into the deceptions of the particular worldview of that society.

So for instance, if there were great displays of supernatural acts in our scientific, materialistic, 21st century mindset here in the

West, that would do more to break people's deception than it would to further entrench people in their deception.

But I have missionary friends, I have pastor friends in other nations that are more animistic cultures, and they describe, like, these are

Reformed believers, godly believers, like, I trust their testimony, I myself haven't seen these eyewitness things.

But they describe things that are not natural, that wouldn't happen naturally.

And they say that further entrenches that culture in an animistic worldview, that if the local witch doctor is able to engage in deceptive signs and wonders by the power of devils, well, that further entrenches that particular people in that false worldview.

Carl Truman, who is a scholar, he does speak to this very thing as well, and says that demons play to the deceptions of a given culture.

So we do have to keep that in mind as well. Yeah, I can recall years ago, listening to a charlatan preacher who's still unfortunately going strong today by the name of Sid Roth, and he was interviewing a missionary in,

I about a witch doctor. And he was like, you gotta tell the story.

Come on, you gotta tell it. And he goes, well, I saw the witch doctor, and he turned—come on, tell the story—he turned into a bat.

Now, I don't know if he was getting stoned and watching a Dracula movie or what.

I mean, obviously, we don't believe that that can happen. But, like, even in the depths of the jungle where there are witch doctors and there are all kinds of satanic things going on that are perhaps more overt than what we would commonly encounter in the

Western world, can Satan do such a good job of masquerading with false miracles that people can actually think that a person did turn into a bat?

Now, I believe that that story was likely just total hogwash, because Sid Roth's been proven to be a liar so many times.

But what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, the Puritans actually speak to this very question, and they help us see that deception comes in all kinds of different ways.

So if there can be suggestions of devils to our minds, like we were talking about with regard to fiery darts, not that they have access to our inner thoughts and they can read our minds.

The Scriptures say, you know, only the spirit within a man is able to know the thoughts and intentions of man's heart.

So I don't believe that devils have access to our mind's eye, but are able to make suggestions.

How does that work? I don't know, but the Scriptures certainly attest to that reality. Think about Jesus's temptation that it was presented before his mind's eye, all of the kingdoms of the world in a single moment.

And then Satan says, bow down to me and I will give them to you. Take a shortcut, don't go to the cross. How does that actually transpire?

I don't know, but I know that it does. And so Puritans are saying, can there be suggestions on our mind's eye where the deception takes place?

Can there be deceptions in the air? They're talking about appearance, that it can give the appearance of a bat, though there's not the actual transformation into a bat.

And so again, the Puritans have a right category that these created entities, these fallen angels, these spirits, these unclean spirits, they're not supernatural beings.

They don't have the same power as God. And so they're only able to do in accord with their nature.

And so they can't do miracles like God can do miracles. That's one of the points of the miracle competition between Moses and Janice and Jambres, the magicians in Pharaoh's court.

Who can actually do miracles? Only God. And here are these charlatans and deceivers can deceive through the power of sleight of hand and through the power of devils only to a bit, only to a small extent.

They're not able to actually achieve miraculous and supernatural activities. And that's why

Christ calls them deceiving signs and wonders. Well, we have to go to our first commercial break.

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Welcome back. If you just tuned in, our guest today is Dr. Keith Evans, Associate Professor of Christian Counseling at Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina.

And we are discussing part two of a conversation we began two weeks ago on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio, developing an awareness of the demonic and biblical counseling in conversation with William Perkins, which is

Dr. Evans' doctoral dissertation theme. And we are also today already starting off with a critique and an analysis from a

Reformed perspective, and we believe a biblical perspective, of popular Roman Catholic exorcist

Chad Rippiger, who is also a traditionalist Roman Catholic priest.

And if you have a question, submit it to chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

Only remain anonymous if your question is personal and private. And before I get to any of our listener questions,

I would like you to clarify something you said before the break about the devils and perhaps

Satan himself having access to the human mind and at what level can they have that access.

One of the things that occurred to me is the story that I believe even

Muslims admit this, that when Muhammad was having the

Quran presented to him in a cave,

I believe, his initial reaction to this experience was that he was demon -possessed.

And it was his wife that convinced him that this was truly from God, this was inspiration of God himself, of Allah.

Is it possible for a demon to, in the demonic way, inspire someone like Muhammad to write an entire book that has misled millions of people for hundreds of years to adopting a false religion, a false

God, a false Jesus Christ, and a false way of becoming right with God, being placed in God's favor and entering into heaven and so on.

Is that a possible thing that could happen? Absolutely. And this is an area where Chad Ripker and I agree because he talks about the

Mormon religion being born out of falsehood and demonic instigation.

So, you know, the Roman Catholic and I agree on that one point. But yeah, so it's very possible that this would be instigated from the other kingdom because why would the other kingdom not want to deceive thousands of people and throughout time into a false religion?

I mean, that's, I think, one of the points of the book of Revelation, regardless of your interpretive framework of the book of Revelation, is that there are religious movements under the sway of the evil one, false religion.

And so you have world rulers and authorities under the influence of the other kingdom, and you have world religions under the influence of the other kingdom.

So I do think that that's the expectation that Scripture would give us. And so to see it born out in the particular illustration of Mormonism should not surprise us.

As far as the point that you were raising about what do devils know about what's in man or the suggestions upon man, the passage

I was referring to prior to the break was 1 Corinthians 2 .11. And just for the sake of your listeners, let me read that.

It says—this is 1 Corinthians 2 .11— for who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person which is in him?

And then it goes on to speak of the relationship of the Holy Spirit with God the

Father. But there's a notion there that only the

Spirit of God or the Spirit of man, like my own spirit, knows my own thoughts or my own intentions, as opposed to devils being able to read that.

Now, that verse does call into question, though, those who would be indwelled by demons, spirits indwelling them.

What's the nature of that? So I think that there's a bit of ambiguity there or a possibility there with regard to demon indwelling.

Now, before you go on to some of your own areas of concern,

I'll just read one question from a listener. Bob in Schoolcraft, Michigan says,

Chad Rippinger used a term specifically for Satan and the demons called preternatural as a correct way of describing things that are not normal, rather than using the term supernatural, which is only reserved for God and divine beings like angels and so on.

Is that correct? Yeah, that's actually one of the areas, again, that he and I agree, that Chad Rippinger and I agree.

I do think that that's a helpful category. So one of my points was his understanding of devils as preternatural beings, not supernatural beings, is accurate.

That they are still created beings, but they are not of this natural order that we embody, right?

Angels and fallen angels don't have bodies and don't interact with this physical world the way that we do because we have bodies.

How does my soul interact with this world? Well, it interacts with this world through my body. Well, not so angels and demons.

And so they are extraterrestrial, if I can use that word. They're not of this terrestrial plane.

They're of the spiritual realm. And another way to speak of that is that they are preternatural beings.

But, you know, then he goes into all kinds of wild places beyond that. That's what

I mean by he's mixing truth and error. So, for instance, he gets into all kinds of different levels of these demonic beings that go beyond the revelation of Scripture.

So we have different categories of angels and different categories of demons in the Bible, like archangel, cherub, seraphim, angels.

And then so, too, for fallen angels, we have principalities, powers, rulers, wicked spirits, evil spirits.

So they kind of line up as far as angels. We have these categories. And then fallen angels, we have these categories.

But Chad Rippiger goes beyond that and has all of this different stratification and hierarchy.

And it's like, where are you getting this? He's mixing truth and error.

That's where we were talking last time about you've got a little bit too much information here.

When somebody's mind is overly encyclopedic, as his appears to be, that would lead you to some reason to have pause in believing the person.

Can anyone have that much specific, detailed information about the demonic realm and act as if they always behave in exactly a certain way?

Do you know where I'm coming from? Absolutely. Yeah, so just to flesh that out a little bit more, he gives very specific names.

He says he's encountered Asmodeus and Lilith and Leviathan and the Noonday Devil and Baphomet and Moloch and Loki.

I just have to point out, he pronounces Baphomet wrong. He pronounces it—he incorporates

Bael and the name of Bael in how he pronounces Baphomet.

So I think that's funny. But he has all of these names of different demons that he's allegedly encountered, and he has different personalities of Satan, that apparently

Satan himself has three different personalities, like Satan had multiple personality disorder.

And from his own testimony, he's getting this from devils. He's not getting this from the

Scripture. And when we start getting truth from devils,

I think we should be pretty concerned. We have to be concerned that we're in the

Wild West here when we get unmoored from Scripture. And wouldn't the

Evil One love for us to receive his claims to truth?

In fact, that's why Adam and Eve fell. I'm not going to listen to the source of all truth.

I'm going to listen to this other source of quote -unquote truth. They listen to the liar. And again, from his own mouth,

Rippinger is receiving this quote -unquote truth from devils. And I think that should be significant concern for us.

So tell us about some more things that are alarming about Rippinger from your hours of viewing him.

Yeah, so he talks about how devils attack people.

And, you know, he talks about he himself has been attacked. And as an exorcist, he has to be ready for these attacks.

And he has to be ready that his family, they're going to be attacked, or his friends are going to be attacked because they like to engage in this like secondary attacks upon the person.

And he talks about some of the rather benign ways that these attacks take place, and then others, again, more fanciful ways that his fellow exorcists have been tempted with a truck full of Mountain Dew that, you know, just silly things that sounds like, seriously, that would be a temptation for somebody, a truckload of Mountain Dew.

But anyway, so when he talks about these attacks, one of the things he talks about is in marital relationships that demons seek to distort perception of the other person so that that leads to a division in the relationship and their circumstances and so forth, that the demons love to divide spouses and cause one to perceive the other in an evil fashion that isn't actually present.

And what he talks about kind of in a grand way or a fanciful way, the

Apostle Paul has a notion for that. And we don't need Rippeger's categories and his kind of Hollywood theatrics.

The Apostle Paul talks in Ephesians 6 that our battle isn't against flesh and blood, but against rulers and principalities and powers in the dark realms.

And he's just finished talking about all of the relationships of life. And he's talked in Ephesians 5 of husbands and wives.

And he's gone on into Ephesians 6 about children and parents and then other relationships that would be a more first -century setting, but slaves and masters.

But we could think about that in contemporary settings as far as employers and so forth. And then he says our conflict isn't immediately with these human beings that we so often think our conflict is about.

Instead, we have to realize there's something behind the scenes, something that's tempting, prodding, luring us away by our desires.

And so what Rippeger sees as kind of theatrical, the Apostle Paul sees as pretty basic to the

Christian life, that when I'm tempted to retort with an evil word or a sharp word to my wife or to my children, we need to see that my conflict isn't actually with my beloved family, that a house divided against itself cannot stand.

And I want to stand shoulder to shoulder with them and not be divided against them. And the Apostle Paul's pulling back the curtains and saying, friends, let's realize those temptations and efforts that the other kingdom's going to to divide us, and let's not be divided one from another.

So that's actually wonderfully practical and applicational that the Apostle Paul is speaking to, and again, different than how

Rippeger is drawing our attention. Yes, and the playful conversations he appears to be having with demons, would that be something ever proper for a so -called man of God to be having conversations that resemble playful conversations like that?

No, that's another area of significant concern. I know we were joking last time about Martin Luther and some of Martin Luther's interactions with the devil, throwing an inkwell and passing gas at the devil, you know, whether that's an apocryphal account or not.

But no, I do not think that we should be flippant when it comes to the other kingdom.

And I'm not charging our forefather in the faith, Martin Luther, with being flippant. I am suggesting, though, like you're suggesting, that Rippeger seems to be on speaking terms with devils in an odd way.

And that's not how I see the book of Jude, for instance. The Archangel Michael, Jude 1 -9—I know there's only one chapter in Jude— but Jude 9, where the

Archangel Michael, he doesn't get into like a power encounter with Satan.

He doesn't get into these exorcistic interactions with Satan.

He just says, The Lord rebuke you, Satan. And there is a—first, I'd like us to see that's a prayer.

That's not an exorcism. He's appealing to the Lord. And the Lord is the one who has authority over devils, not even the

Archangel Michael. And there's not a flippancy there. There's a sobriety there.

And I think that we should take cues from the archangel of our camp that we would not be flippant about these things.

We have August, who lives—and

I hope I'm not going to butcher this pronunciation of your city— Etobicoke, Canada.

And he says, Is it true that all Roman Catholic baptisms are also exorcisms?

I happen to know that that's true because I was studying the issue for a while while reading

J. H. Thornwell's writings. He's a 19th century Presbyterian.

And he was attempting to get his fellow

Presbyterians to stop welcoming those into the membership of the church who were only baptized by Roman Catholic priests.

And he was—even as a paedo -baptist, he was opposed to that. And when I was studying that whole issue with Thornwell as a guide, he did draw me to the attention that they are exorcisms.

They're apparently different kinds of exorcisms than a major one, but do you have any comments on that?

Yeah, you're exactly right, Chris. And that's a great historic debate that you're referring to,

Thornwell and Hodge, and whether or not we receive Roman Catholic baptism as Reformed believers.

So that's an excellent thing for your listeners to consider and to read about. But as far as all

Roman Catholic baptisms, including an exorcism, that is absolutely true, and that is still true to this day.

There are particular prayers and rites. There's flexibility and freedom for an individual priest of how he engages in that.

And so Rome would make recommendations like, well, here are some types of exorcistic prayers that you can do when you baptize the baby.

But the expectation is that all Roman Catholic baptisms will include an exorcism.

I think that we need to see the—it might not seem all that significant, how that's a different worldview, like a significantly different worldview, but we do need to see it as that, because we are saying that the

Holy Spirit needs something more besides his regenerative work in the life of the believer, that he needs a priest in this case to engage in the cleansing rite, to prepare the way for the

Holy Spirit to be able to indwell the house and clean the house. And it might be subtle, but that is a significant and very concerning doctrine.

I just had pop into my head the image of Catholic parents losing sleep because their baby's screaming all night and them calling the priest, you know,

I don't think you really did a good job on that exorcism. You got to do it again. We have to go to our midway break right now.

And once again, if you want to join us with your own question, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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That's also the email address to send in a question to Dr. Keith Evans on the demonic realm and also specifically on Chad Rippiger, the popular

Roman Catholic priest and exorcist who has been making the rounds of podcasts and has been having millions, literally millions of people viewing and hearing what he has to say.

So if you could, Keith, just pick up with another area of alarm that you noticed after hours of viewing

Chad Rippiger yourself. Yeah, absolutely. We were talking before the most recent commercial break there about all of the different names that Rippiger knows from his many encounters with demons.

And he talks about Revelation chapter 12 that it says there in Revelation 12 that a third of the stars fell with Satan.

And he rightly recognizes that throughout church history that people have interpreted that verse to mean roughly a third of the angelic host fell with Satan.

That's what's being referred to there. And so he goes on to say that there are billions, maybe even more, billions upon billions of different demons.

And then even though he gives maybe, I don't know, seven to twelve different demons' names in the various interviews he gives, it's fascinating that these same seven just keep showing up, or these same names keep showing up.

And he says things like when you're dealing with homosexuality, you can be certain that this particular demon would be involved.

Asmodeus is the name that he gives. So he can be certain that if you're dealing with male homosexuality and it's demon possession, that you can be certain that Asmodeus is involved.

And then he speaks of Lilith and Leviathan in the case of female homosexuality.

And there's all kinds of problems with what he's saying there. I mean, first off, if there really are billions upon billions of individual demons, why is it that Rippeger is continuing to encounter the same small handful?

And why is it that if there are billions upon billions of demons, he's invariably going to encounter

Asmodeus every time in a male homosexual case, or Lilith or Leviathan every time in a female homosexual case?

It just begs the question as far as— I mean, it really presses our ability to believe kind of what he's asserting there.

It also gives an idea to— it's really not my sin that I'm battling with.

It's not my flesh and my desires that I'm battling with. It's the demon of homosexuality, or it's the demon of pornography, or the demon of pride, or the demon of abuse.

I know that he grants that not every single case is demonic possession, but it sure sounds like in his worldview it's far more prevalent than we would make it out to be, certainly.

And there's an ability in his understanding of the world and the spiritual realms that we're able to make excuses that you see also in the charismatic world, that it's not me.

It's a devil that made me do it. It's the devil of pornography. And so if I would just be able to uproot that, then

I would be able to deal with that particular sin issue. So I know there's a lot of probably confusion in what

I just unpacked there in Rippeger's understanding of the world, but I hope the inconsistencies and the imprecisions there,

I hope it's helpful for our listeners to see that he's more assertive than the realities actually bear out in his understanding of these things.

You know, it just occurred to me, it didn't occur to me when I was watching him, but it occurred to me how perfectly that coincides with Roman Catholic idolatry of saints, because just as there are demons for every specific sin in his mind, there are also saints that one is to pray to for specific needs.

I can even remember his Roman Catholic kid in grammar school,

St. Martin of Tours of Amityville, Long Island, and whenever a nun would lose an object like her keys or a ruler, and we would love it when they'd lose a ruler, but whatever they lost, they would have the children, they would compel the children to all chant over and over again until she found the object,

Dear St. Anthony, please come around. Something is lost and can't be found. That's just one example.

St. Rocco is the saint that you pray to if you're being attacked by a dog. And, you know,

I could go on and on for hours with the different descriptions of the specific saints that the

Roman Catholic Church would have you believe are each given by God a specific area of life that they have power over.

And because, you know, God's too busy to answer your prayers for all these things, so, you know, he needs to share the responsibility with the host of saints.

But isn't it interesting how they do go along together, if that's the right way of saying it?

No, I think that's an excellent observation, Chris. And it gets at another overarching or even foundational concern that I see with everything that Rippeger is advancing.

This isn't just generic spiritual warfare. It's not like Rippeger is advancing a biblical understanding of the demonic realms, and there are just a couple of Catholic things here or there that we could chew the meat and spit the bones, that even we, as Reformed believers, yeah, you know,

I'm not Roman Catholic, I'm not going to go along with that, but there are aspects that are good, so we can chew the meat and spit the bones.

I don't want any hearer to mishear me or misunderstand me that even where I say there might be agreement with what

Rippeger is advancing, from the start to the finish, what he is proposing is a

Roman Catholic understanding of the spiritual realms. It is Roman Catholic in all that he's doing, and I think that that's the most concerning thing about what he's doing here.

We brought that out last time I was on the show, Chris, but just to highlight it a little bit more, that Roman Catholicism is just embedded in everything he's doing.

So, for instance, his understanding of Thomas Aquinas, his view of Mary, the Roman Catholic prayers,

I mean, even the fact that he affirms Mary was sinless, bodily assumed into heaven, was crowned the

Queen of Heaven, that she sat under the cross in perfect virtue, and aside from Christ's passion, was the most glorious event in history.

Those are all quotes that I brought out, and that last one, actually, he's quoting the testimony of a demon that's enshrining that understanding of Mary.

So that's just a sampling to say that this isn't a generic spiritual warfare.

This is Roman Catholic from start to finish, from top to bottom, and everywhere in between, and you were just highlighting an aspect of it there, even the number of demons and the particular demons that line up with the particular temptations that coincide with the particular saints and the particular deliverance that those saints bring.

Roman Catholic from start to finish. Okay, we have

Herschel in Ridgeland, Mississippi, and Herschel says,

I saw parts of the interviews that both

Tucker and Sean Ryan had with this priest, and I remember him talking about demoniacs levitating in the air.

Do you believe that this can really happen, and is this just a fabrication of this priest?

And it's an interesting question because to give him the benefit of the doubt, which is something I hate doing right now,

I have spoken with Reformed missionaries who have been to unevangelized areas of South America and other parts of the world where they've encountered witch doctors that at least appeared to have the power to levitate branches off the ground into the air, and at least one of these missionaries who came from a theologically sound background couldn't say with certainty that this was a charlatan trick.

So what do you have to say about that? And then obviously, more importantly, the listener's question. Yeah, I think it's an excellent question.

It's not something I personally have witnessed, and so I just want to be very clear about that right out of the gates.

I have not personally witnessed demonically instigated levitation. I have a good

Reformed Baptist friend and brother. He's in Brazil. He's a professor. He's a pastor, and he said,

Keith, if you were to come down to Brazil, I hope to travel to Brazil next year and teach down there, but he said,

Keith, if you come to Brazil, I could take you to a local shaman, a local, you know, quote -unquote miracle worker, and show you a man who can levitate off of the ground.

Now, I personally don't want to see that to be perfectly honest with you. I'd rather be—

I'd be quite bothered to have to engage with such a, you know, a pagan practitioner, but he's speaking really plainly.

You know, my Reformed Baptist brother and friend, he's saying, Keith, I could show you this. And so he's saying that's going to enshrine in the minds of the people there that he is the most powerful miracle worker in the land, and so if you have a problem, you go to him.

And is it by deceiving signs and wonders? Absolutely. I mean, it's certainly not by the hand of the

Lord, and it's further deceiving people into that worldview. And just to ground it in the Scriptures, you see in the temptation of Jesus, Luke chapter 4, or Matthew or Mark chapter 4, but Matthew chapter 4, a parallel account.

But in Luke chapter 4, you see it says that Jesus, you know, had not eaten for 40 days.

He was in the wilderness of Judea. He is, like, nearly starving to death, right? He's very hungry.

He's being tempted with stones. And it says in verse 9 of Luke 4, and Satan took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, if you're the

Son of God, throw yourself down from here. Most Reformed commentators say the Son of God would not put himself into a position of temptation.

And also, you're not able to just walk up to the pinnacle of the temple. And so most

Reformed commentators recognize this is by some means of satanical transportation, that the

Son of God allowed himself, you know, to be satanically transported to the pinnacle of the temple. How does that happen?

I don't know. But the Greek there isn't just Jesus waltzed right up onto the pinnacle of the temple or as though, like,

Satan is taking him by the hand. The Greek word is that it took him, like, actually lifted him, placed him, moved him, that Jesus is passive as far as being moved there.

Again, whatever we make of that, I think it's safe to say that what my

Reformed brothers and sisters have seen throughout the world, and I trust them to be speaking truth,

I trust they're not lying, to see some kind of demonic moving of people and levitation,

I do think that there's at least some biblical grounding for that possibility as well. Okay, well, move on to another area where you believe this man cannot be trusted in his claim.

Absolutely. So he talks about the current political landscape, and, you know, as he's on Tucker Carlson, that would make sense that he would capitalize on that, and even

Sean Ryan that he would capitalize on that, and he's talking about how, you know, the United States is presently under a heightened demonic attack, and leaders are under demonic influence, and I think that there's an aspect that he's capitalizing on the listenership of that which he's speaking to, but I trust that even your listeners,

Chris, that we recognize, man, things are just not good. Things are bad. There's just a lot of division, there's a lot of turmoil and unsettledness in the political landscape, and what do we make about some of the claims in the news and so forth as far as just the wickedness and evil, and so he's going to use that, again, to point to, well, the

Roman Catholic Church, there are impurities in her, and so goes the

Roman Catholic Church, so goes the nation, or so goes the world, and so we need to pray for the purity of the Roman Catholic Church, and we, you know, so all of it is going to point back to Rome.

Like, that's what I see everything he's doing. It's just this subtle or not -so -subtle luring back to the quote -unquote mother church, so even the, you know, the political capitalization, but so there's a great book

I want to recommend to your listeners. The Banner of Truth Trust publishes it.

It's called Satan Cast Out by Frederick Leahy. Satan Cast Out by Frederick Leahy, and Frederick Leahy was writing in the 1970s.

He was a systematic theologian where Reformed missionaries are coming back to Ireland and saying, you know,

Professor, we're seeing bizarre things on the mission field. How do we make sense of this from a

Reformed and biblical understanding? And this is the only book in The Banner of Truth that serves as their demonology, and that's because it's a one -stop shop.

I mean, it's excellent as far as a Reformed book is concerned. It's also not that long and not hard to read, so if your listeners are interested,

Frederick Leahy, Satan Cast Out, but even in that book, he traces world leaders of Antiochus Epiphanes, Nero, Hitler, and others who consulted mediums and occultists and had advisors on their panels who were known

Satanists, and he's just saying, like, this is plain throughout time that there would be the influence on world rulers and world movements from the demonic realms, and he just speaks about it historically and plainly, so whereas Rippeger is going to kind of take advantage of the current happenings in the political landscape of the

United States to try and draw people back to Rome, Frederick Leahy's going to say, well, this just points us to a

Reformed understanding of the power -behind principle that you see throughout the

Scriptures, that, of course, there's a power behind the thrones, that our wrestlings are not with humans but with demonic forces that are moving and shifting behind the thrones as they were.

And Frederick Leahy went home to be with the Lord, am I correct? No, that's correct, yes.

When I first found out about him years ago and got the book, I was hoping to interview him but found out that he'd beat me to heaven, so.

That's right. Let's see here. Oh, this is an excellent question.

We have Zach in Carrboro, North Carolina, and Zach says, was the priest that you are referring to making it sound as if that he encountered the same

Leviathan that we have recorded in at least three books of the

Old Testament? That's an excellent question. And yes, in the sense that this priest is purporting that he has encountered

Satan himself on multiple occasions. Like the Satan, right?

Like Lucifer himself. And whoever Leviathan is in Rippinger's understanding of the demonic hierarchy, he doesn't see

Leviathan as Satan himself but as one of the chief generals in Satan's army.

But yes, he would be purporting that he has encountered these really significant forces, these names who are so great in the

Bible. And there's a bit of a self -aggrandizement to that.

I'm not charging him with pride by saying this, but just building himself up.

Really, you've encountered these beings? You see the names in the

Bible of actual demons. Beelzebub, Belial, Lucifer, then you have

Legion. I know there's some debate about Azazel in the book of Leviticus. Is that a demonic name?

But setting that one aside, that's kind of the lone exception. And Leviathan is just a number of demons that find themselves in that demoniac.

Really, the only being named in the Scriptures is Satan himself with a bunch of different names.

And then we just see unclean spirits. And so, you know, I think Rippeger has to multiply names from other sources to be able to speak to other named beings besides Satan himself.

Yes, and many of us believe Leviathan was a dinosaur.

So, that wouldn't exactly coincide with his exorcism.

Well, I'll have you include anything else after I ask this question.

But I think I want to make sure I bring this up before we run out of time. Do you believe this man believes himself, what he is saying, or do you believe that he is a conscious charlatan?

And why, if the latter is true? Yeah, so I definitely want to be careful and not judge motives and intentions of the heart and motives and intentions of the heart that I cannot see.

I'm a man. I can't know men's motives. Only the Lord Jesus can know the motives and intentions, right?

Or God himself knows motives and intentions of men's hearts. And I'll leave the Lord to be the one to make that judgment.

But there are aspects of the testimony. I've been trying to highlight them as I've been moving through this second part of the interview, most specifically.

There have been aspects of his interviews that just don't pass the smell test as far as...

It's beyond cajolity. Like, it's beyond belief at certain points. And surely, he would see the inconsistencies of what he's raising.

You know, for instance, let me give you one more for instance. He says, you know, we humans are dumb and stupid and easily deceived.

And demons, they don't think like we do and they don't have to reason like we do.

They're just a state of knowing. And they have access to knowledge in their pure spirit form.

But then he goes on to say how they're essentially easily overcome, like, easily duped.

That they're, like, obsessive -compulsive almost. And they are fixated on their goals.

And so they give up their secrets to be able to be exercised. So he's talking on one hand as though they're brilliant and we're stupid.

And then on the other hand, that they're easy to overcome because they're obsessive -compulsive. And so there are just aspects that don't pass the smell test as far as consistency.

That leads me to believe, just as an honest, you know, scholar assessing what he's doing, my best estimate is he knows that he is deceiving people back into Rome.

And he knows what he's doing. And even on top of that, likely deceiving

Vatican II Catholics to his traditional brand of Catholicism, which rejects

Vatican II. Yeah, I'm sure that there are many different motivations, and even motivations as a

Reformed Protestant believer I couldn't fully understand or fully appreciate since I just don't know the

Roman Catholic world as much. Okay, we have Gregory in Middle Island, St.

Kitts in the West Indies who has a question. What does the

Bible mean by lying signs and wonders? Are they just parlor tricks and or something else?

You have touched on this already, but why don't you give perhaps a more detailed explanation to Gregory?

Yeah, absolutely. I think it is a great question from Gregory, and it helps us bring together a couple of things that we've already mentioned.

And so we've said that these fallen angels, these unclean spirits, they're not natural beings in the sense that we are.

They are created beings, but what we refer to them as is preternatural beings. They're not supernatural, right?

They're not in the place of God above nature. They are created, but they have more abilities than I do or that you do as a man, right?

And so what is it that we see angels doing in the scriptures? We see that they are able to like seemingly teleport.

They are able to move from one place to another very quickly. The Puritans refer to that as they are swift.

Whatever that swiftness is. How is it that a being is able to transition from the spiritual world into this physical world?

They have abilities that we don't have. They're at least 10 ,000 years old, as far as how long ago were they created and questions of that.

But so they're ancient beings, and so they have greater knowledge than us. And so it's going to appear like they are not infinitely wise, but they're going to appear to be far more wise than us.

And so they have greater abilities than human beings. And so if we're coupling, for instance,

Janice and Jambres with the miracle competition between them and Moses in the account in the

Exodus, you're coupling sleight of hand plus preternatural abilities of demons.

That's going to look to be far beyond mere magicians that you have today who are doing just like stage magic, but still less than what

God himself can do. For God alone is the worker of miracles. And so I think it's an excellent question from the listener.

Thank you, Gregory, and keep spreading the word about Iron Trip and Zion Radio in St.

Kitts. And we're going to our final commercial break, and don't go away.

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And put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. We are now back, and Gregory has one more question from St.

Kitts. I figure that since he's from such an exotic place, we'll give him another question.

What is the biblical and non -biblical way to do exorcism today? Okay. Well, that goes back to our previous time when

I was interviewed in part one, and I was seeking to make the argument that we ought not engage in exorcisms.

That that was a function for a brief time for the apostolic church to demonstrate that the change from the

Old Covenant to the New was the very work of the Holy Spirit, and it was not a lie.

It wasn't a falsehood. And the Lord Jesus gave unique gifts to the apostolic church of which heart was power over devils and binding and casting.

But even the Lord Jesus himself says what is more enduring and what is more powerful after he comes down from the

Mount of Transfiguration, he says, this one does not come out but by prayer and fasting. So he points to the ordinary means of grace that we know and love, prayer, particular type of prayer, perhaps fasting.

But we have been given all we need in the sufficiency of Scripture, and we've not been pointed to here's how you do exorcisms in the pastoral epistles.

Instead in Ephesians 6 we're told we're to stand, to stand firm, we're to endure effectively is what we're being told there and in 1

Peter 5, and we're to use the word of God which is the offensive weapon as well as the forgotten offensive weapon of prayer and the prayers that the apostle gives.

There are ordinary prayers that we know as opposed to you find out the demon's name, you bind in the name of Christ and here's how you do it or something like that.

That's not how the New Testament epistles instruct us. They instead instruct us in the ordinary means of grace to stand, to resist, to withstand, and in doing so the devil will flee from us.

Okay, we have Rhody in Knoxville, Tennessee, and if you don't have a church home already that's a very biblical church home,

Rhody. I know the wonderful one there in Knoxville, Reformata Baptist Church pastored by a dear friend of mine, but Rhody says you were saying earlier about how this priest will give a certain name for a specific demon that is most likely involved when somebody is a male homosexual.

Since there are millions of male homosexuals all over the world, would that not indicate that these demons are omnipresent?

That's a good point. Yeah, that was an excellent observation by the listener.

That was an implicit critique I was making. I didn't bring it out explicitly, but they heard the implicit critique, which

I think is fantastic. Yeah, how can, if there are millions of homosexuals around the world, what, 2 % of the population or something like that, and Asmodeus is, as Chad Rippinger says, you can almost bet

Asmodeus is involved with regard to demon possession in that case. It's just, it breaks our ability to believe his claims, right?

So your listener is hearing the inconsistency there. And no, Rippinger himself says demons are not omnipresent.

The scriptures do not teach they're omnipresent. Only the Lord himself is omnipresent. That's not an ability given to spirits.

They are locatable as spirits, just like deceased saints.

They are locatable as they are in the intermediate state and they are praising the Lord in front of the throne.

They're spirits, you know, they're separated from their body, but they're still locatable also to other spirits.

Now, as briefly as you can, there is a problem on both of the extremes of the subject of the demonic.

Those that are infatuated with it can't stop thinking about it, reading about it, watching films about it, studying it, becoming paranoid that there's a demon under every rock, as the saying goes.

And there's also the opposite, but I think equally dangerous view that these things should be, the subject should be completely ignored.

Because it's nonsensical or we don't have to worry about it. That latter attitude is,

I believe, is what's driving people who have experienced something that they believe is demonic to go running into the arms of Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and others.

I mean, even Muslims are doing exorcisms. I saw a ridiculous video recently of a

Muslim, I don't know if he was an imam, but he was exercising a jinn, which is apparently a demon, out from a woman who was on the phone.

And she was screaming in agony, and I was thinking, just like I did when Bob George used to do this on his radio show, the phony televangelist, when he was exercising demons and they were screaming in agony on the phone.

How about dropping the telephone? Throwing it against the wall.

Why are you holding it against your face if this man is causing you agony? But anyway, what do you have to say about that?

Yeah, I think the point that you're bringing up about devils being equally pleased with either extreme is a really helpful one, and that's a reference to the

C .S. Lewis quote. I think we made reference to in the first part as well, but in the screw tape letters,

C .S. Lewis says, devils are equally pleased by both errors, the two extremes you were talking about a moment ago,

Chris, and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight.

And that's, I just think, brilliant on C .S. Lewis's part. The person who says there are no devils, devils love that.

And the person who is just enthralled and infatuated with devils, the magician, devils love that.

And I found myself studying this particular topic and even now writing books in this particular space, and I do think that there is a real danger.

I need to be on my knees at all times. Father, I don't want to be enthralled or infatuated at all.

I hate the other kingdom. And to just continue to be the

Lord's servant who is mining the riches of Scripture as opposed to the Wild West experience like we were talking about.

But that's one thing that I want to bring us back to, and maybe that can land the plane as far as Rippinger is concerned.

Rippinger keeps taking us back to Rome, whereas I want to keep taking us back to the Scriptures. And I've sought to do so, both in part one and in part two.

I mean, I hope the listeners heard that. I'm seeking to go back to the Scriptures. What do the Scriptures teach? And when we encounter the bizarre, we are tempted to go into exploring other...

outside the bounds of Scripture for answers. And again, I think devils love that.

Amen. Well, it has been utterly fascinating and a joy, and I was riveted to every word that came out of your mouth, and I look forward to having you back on the program.

You've got to keep me updated on any books that come into print that you are working on.

I definitely want to have you back frequently on the show. And anybody who wants to find out more about Dr.

Keith Evans, you can go to rts .academia .edu

forward slash Keith Evans as one word. That's rts, for Reformed Theological Seminary, rts .academia

.edu forward slash Keith Evans. Thank you so much, brother.

I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater