The Biblical Evangelism of the Westminster Confession #2 — Ernest C. Reisinger

May I just express my appreciation to your leaders for this invitation here. It's always good to come to Westminster again, even if it's for a visit, not necessarily to speak, but to see some of those who labor in the gospel here to instruct you.

I am grateful for Dr. Miller and his interest in evangelism since he's been at this seminary. I may be wrong, but it seems to me I've heard more notes on evangelism since he's here, and I thank God for him and for all your faculty and for this great institution.

So I'm glad to be here today with you. I want to try to talk about some subjects of biblical evangelism this morning that I hope are pertinent to our day, to our need. You know, there's a great question in the old catechism, and I hope you young preachers don't miss this question.

Applying the Word Wisely to the Hearers

It might be as good or much of the instruction you get on preaching, but there's a great question. I think it has some of the most valuable things in it for preaching in the old catechism that I've ever found.

It's so comprehensive, and the question is this. You may not know it's there if you haven't looked lately. How is the Word of God to be preached by them that are called thereunto? How many of you have ever seen that question in the larger catechism?

Well, a few of you. Thank God for that. Well, listen to the answer. They that are called to labor in the ministry of the Word are to preach sound doctrine diligently in season and out of season. That's number one.

Plainly, this is number two, not in enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and power. Number three, faithfully making known the whole counsel of God. Four, and this is what I want to particularly refer to, wisely applying themselves to the necessity and the capacity of the hearers.

Now, that would be a great thing for young preachers to get a hold of that point. Wisely, it's to be preached wisely and under wisely, it says, applying themselves to the necessity and the capacity of their hearers.

I remember once going into a church. It was quite dead. And there was about twelve people there on a Sunday night, and the subject was the historicity of 2 Peter. And I thought if there's any crowd that needs that, they sure needed to hear something about, follow me and I'll make you fishers of men.

But it's applying themselves to the necessity of the hearers, and it goes on a few more things, velocily. I want to try to speak to the necessities of our day, to what we see in our day concerning evangelism.

Assurance and the Danger of Canned Evangelism

I would love to have time to cover evangelism and the biblical doctrine of assurance. It's a very important thing. It would put an end to all these canned methods of evangelism. It would put an end to them totally.

Now, it wouldn't put an end to the whole system, but it would put an end to that aspect of the system where they decision people on the spot and give them assurance that they belong to Christ all in about three minutes or five minutes or some of them real long.

It might take them 20 minutes. But all that in one 20 minutes. Well, if they knew the Bible doctrine of assurance, it would end all of that altogether. I'd like to have time to do that. However, I won't.

I won't have time. I feel somewhat like that. Last night I had a terrible time with trying to get my lips wet. My saliva glands must have stopped last night. I had a terrible time. And today I'm kind of frustrated because I just don't know how much to touch.

I feel like the bishop who lost his ticket on the train. And when the conductor came by, he was feverishly trying to find his ticket. And finally they went by and said, that's all right, Bishop, we'll be back in a minute.

And they came back when he collected the tickets for the rest of the train. He came back again and he was feverishly still trying to. And by this time he's really getting worked up. That's all right, Bishop, we'll be back.

So when he came back the third time, the bishop was really broken out in sweat. And I mean the bubbles of perspiration were on his head. He said, that's all right, Bishop, we know you. He said, we ride this train all the time.

We know all about you. That's quite all right. You just, you could pass again or we know you have the ticket. And he still kept feverishly going for the ticket. He said, but the problem is I don't know where I'm going.

So I feel somewhat like that today. I hope I know where I'm going. Well, let me announce at least what I'm going to try to do this morning. I've, as a layman, did some itinerant work, if there is such a thing in the Bible.

I suppose there is in some degree anyhow. I don't know about these itinerant preachers, however, but, and much less lay preachers. There's only one thing more dangerous than being a preacher and that's being a lay preacher.

That's what Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones said and I agree. But in going from church to church and meeting some of the wonderful men of God that I've met over the years and had some wonderful times of fellowship and devotion and prayer with them, it's been a high privilege that I've had to do that.

Some preachers never get out to meet many other preachers even in the whole course of their ministry and that is to live with them a week or something like that. And I have met some godly men in that course of ten years about and had some very intimate conversations about Christianity and about their church, things that wouldn't be proper for them to discuss about their church publicly.

Bible Evidence of Conversion

But not infrequently, men will say to me, people who have a real concept of biblical conversion, biblical salvation, say that they wonder how many people in their congregation really give Bible evidence of being converted.

I had one man that preaches to 700 people every Sunday. He did then, I hope it's more now, maybe less. Maybe he preached some of them out, I don't know. But I remember very vividly, we started a week of meetings there, eight days, and he said, Ernie, I really don't believe 25 of my people give Bible evidence of being converted.

Bible evidence. He didn't say they weren't converted, they were. He said they do not give Bible evidence of conversion. Two weeks or three weeks ago, I was in Alabama in a Presbyterian church for a week and lived with a pastor, a wonderful young preacher, a man of prayer.

And during that week he expressed to me that he wondered if any of his elders were converted. Now that's a fact. I'm not God, I'm just telling you what he said. I didn't say they weren't converted. Now, it's in this area that I want to touch today because the Bible does have something to say about spurious faith.

It uses different terms to express it. I'm not suggesting, and I want to say this at the outset, it's not for the preacher, or for me, or for other Christians to decide who is phony and who's not. I mean, unless it's a blatant, open confession that they deny things.

I'm not suggesting that we can go around and decide who's a spurious believer and who's a genuine believer. That's not the answer. The answer is, the Bible does have something to say about spurious faith, spurious believers, and some of the characteristics, and it also has a great deal to say about those who are in possession of real Bible faith.

It's because of that that I want to try this morning to, and it's important in evangelism, to at least have some idea of this distinction. And I believe, as this man I told you about a moment ago who preaches to 700 people, by the end of the week, because I was preaching on self-examination, he was kind of a little disturbed, and I remember one day he said to me, what do you want me to do, Ernie?

Stand up every Sunday morning and tell them they're not converted or they're not Christians? I said, no, doctor. I said, I wouldn't suggest that. He said, well, what should I do? I said, well, I have a Bible.

And I said, I read it now and again. And I said, in there it tells me what a Christian is meant to be and to do. And I said, I believe it's the duty of godly preachers to hold up before men and women what is a Christian, and what he's meant to be and to do.

Are you a Christian? That's not trying to play God, but that is trying to expose and expound what a Christian is. Now, why do I say this? Well, because of a passage of Scripture like 1 Corinthians 15, 1 and 2, where it says they believed in vain.

That's not true faith. They believed in vain. Or James 2 .19, where it says the devils believed and trembled. Some of you haven't even trembled. You haven't believed to that extent. Did you have any trembling?

Phoenix believed something, because when Paul pressed upon him the great message of the gospel, the Bible says he trembled. He was affected. So he had to believe something. In Matthew 8, verses 28 and 29, we find the confession of the demons.

They have a very good confession. Did you ever know that? That the demons have a good confession of faith. If you look at verse 29, they believed in the person of Christ. We know that Thou art the Son of God.

They knew that they had a good confession. They believed in the person of Christ. Not only that, they believed in the power of Christ. They said, Our God comes to torment us before the time. They believed He had power.

So they had a good confession. In fact, it sounds like they were even straight on prophecy. I'm not, but it sounds like they were because they said, Our God comes to torment us before the time. So maybe they were even straight on prophecy.

I don't know. Luke 8, chapter 8, verse 13, it talks about those who believe for a while, but in the time of temptation they fall away. James 2, verse 17 and verse 26, it talks about dead faith. Well, now if there's such a thing as dead faith, devil's faith, vain faith, then we ought to have some idea, at least the Bible can't be so vague that there wouldn't be some idea about some of the characteristics of these two kinds of faith, real, genuine faith and the others.

Assurance, Joy, and Christian Service

I think it gets down to experimental religion. Now, the reason this is important in evangelism, in my opinion, is that we would be very careful in the area of us giving other people assurance. Not that we don't tell them assurance is there.

Not that we don't take the Bible position and tell them to give diligence to make their calling election sure, because joy comes from knowing. The joy of a Christian life is in the aspect of assurance.

How much joy can I have about the Christian life if I'm not sure I'm a Christian? So the joy of it comes from knowing I'm a Christian. And I'm not going to run out witnessing to anybody and say, oh, come and be a Christian, it's wonderful, it's great.

And they say, are you a Christian? I say, well, I don't know. You see, there's a very close relationship between joy and assurance. That's why we see it so vividly set out in John's epistle. There's a very close relationship.

There's a close relationship between assurance and service. When David is in that great psalm where he's confessing his sin with Bathsheba and his murder of Uriah, in the midst of that great confession, you know the part where he said, Lord, bestow unto me the joy of thy salvation.

Then will I teach transgressors thy ways, and sinners shall be converted to thee. So there was some relationship between that joy of God's salvation that he was pleading for and him instructing sinners.

Because he said, then. Then will he do it. So this morning, I want to try to set before you a few of the differences. I didn't say who they were, but some of the differences between biblical faith, shading faith.

This is not all. It's not a comprehensive or an inclusive type of a message. Not even any attempt at that. But there are some differences. This morning I'd like to try to set before you a couple of those differences.

Believing That Falls Short of Saving Faith

And the first thing, the first I suggest is this. First, the Bible does teach it that there's a believing that's less than believing unto salvation. I did give you some references. Let me just give you a couple more cases.

John 2, verses 23 and 24. We find that there is a case where it says many believed on him, but Jesus did not commit himself to them. Well, if Christ has not committed himself to us, it's certainly not saving faith.

Jesus did not commit himself to them. It's not only me committing myself to Christ, but it's Christ committing himself to us in all of his work. Then there's the passage in John 12. Nevertheless, among the chief rulers, also many believed on him.

But because of the Pharisees, they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue, for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. So we have it all through the Bible.

And of course, the most vivid example is Acts 8. This is very embarrassing for a Baptist because he not only was a believer, but he received believer's baptism, believe it or not. And he still was lost.

I'm not going into that fellow this morning, but he certainly had no reason to believe that he was a Christian or been savingly joined to Christ. Well, the question is, not so much does the Bible teach this.

I think that's rather simple to establish. But the question is, well, what's the difference? And that's what I want to try to share with you a little while this morning because it's vital to evangelism, especially in the area of us giving people assurance.

Wanting Christ Without Exception

The first difference that suggests is this. The false believer, the spurious believer, that's the fellow who's not genuine, the phony, believe it or not, they want Christ. So they wouldn't be a believer at all.

They'd be an unbeliever. So the spurious believer wants Christ, but not without exception. This is the difference. The true believer, there is that time in his life when he comes to Christ and he wants Christ without any buts, without any ands, and without any ifs.

Not this idea, I want Christ, but I'm going to steal. No, you're not going to be saved. Don't you tell people they are either. I want Christ if ands. I want Christ if, if, if, if. No, you're not a candidate for salvation in that sense.

You see, the spurious believer wants Christ, all right, but he wants his other lovers likewise. Now, I don't question that we as true believers have some buts and ands and ifs as we go along the pilgrim way, but there must come that time when my heart is so subdued that Christ and Christ is so beautifully set before my soul that I want Christ without exception.

You see, there's this idea that people want the grace of Christ, but they'll have nothing to do with his government. And that's not saving faith, just to want his grace and not want his government. That's like the prodigal son.

He wanted his father's goods, but he didn't want his father's government. That's the difference. The spurious believer wants the benefits of the cross. He loves, as you tell him, because he's a believer.

He loves to have you tell him about the benefits of the cross, but don't talk to him about bowing to the implications of the crown. That's something else. And that's a distinction between if he just wants the benefits of the cross.

He says he's in the kingdom. Oh yes, he's in the kingdom. He's a believer, but he's not subject to the king. He wants the crown at the end of the way, but not the narrow road that leads to it. They want this big free gift that people are huckstering off.

The big free gift, salvation. But what we must also tell men in evangelism, yes, it's a free gift, but it must be received with empty hands. That's the difference. And when you tell the spurious believer, Oh, it's free, but empty your hands.

That's letting him in without repentance. There's no such salvation. They don't mind trusting, but don't talk to them about turning. They want heaven, but not the narrow road that leads there. They want the straight, not the straight gate.

They want heaven, but they don't want to go through the straight gate that leads to it. That's the spurious believer. But you see, the true believer, he wants Christ without any exception. It's also a gospel of behavior as well as a gospel of belief.

True believers see Christ as the treasure hid in a field, as we have it in that great text in those little short parables in Matthew 13. The true believer sees Christ as the treasure hid in a field. Matthew 13, verse 44.

Here's the picture. Here it is. I just call your attention in those passages. And again, the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hid in a field. When a man hath found, he rejoiced. And for joy thereof, he goes and sells all that he has and he buys that field, that salvation.

I want that field at any cost. You see it in the next parable as well. Again, Jesus said, the kingdom of heaven is like an unto a merchant man seeking goodly pearls, who when he hath found one pearl of great price.

I need not waste any time telling you what that is. When he found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had and bought that. That's the principle that I'm talking about. And the true believer says he wants Christ without exception.

And he will not be saved on any other grounds. Anything less than that is less than Bible faith. Anything less than that is not saving faith. And then the second thing, the difference that I'd call to your attention, is this.

Receiving Christ in All His Offices

The false believer never closes with Christ. If I could use it in that expression, he never comes to Christ in all of his offices as he's offered in the gospel. What do I mean by that? Well, I'd like to catechize you again this morning.

You see, in the old catechism and in the Bible itself, you don't see anything about people trusting Jesus as their Savior. Did you ever know that? There's not a line in the Bible that has any idea, it even implies that, it implies that principle.

Now don't misunderstand, it's a very important point that I wouldn't want to be misunderstood on. It's certainly proper for us to sing about Him as our Savior, to present Him to the world as the Savior, to talk about Him as our Savior, and to know Him as our Savior.

The danger is, as when we take this away from who the Savior is, when the angels announce His coming into the world, they say, unto you this day is born in the city of David a Savior who is Christ the Lord.

When the apostles preached, they preached Christ Jesus the Lord. 2 Corinthians. We're your servants for Jesus' sake. They preached Christ Jesus the Lord. Colossians 2 .6. When sinners receive Christ, they receive Christ Jesus the Lord.

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in Him. That's the language of the Bible. And that's the language of the old catechism and the Westminster Confessions. Why is it in the whole Confession?

In the whole catechism you wouldn't find any reference to anybody trusting Jesus as their Savior. Not a single line in the whole catechism. And I said to somebody this morning when I held it up, I said, this is not the Bible, this is just the best expression of it.

Not a line in the Bible like that. This is the language you get there, and I'm going to catechize you now. Because I want to make the point, this is one of the salient differences between a true believer and a false believer.

A true believer never closes with Christ in all of his offices. That is, as he's offered in the Bible. Catechism question number 23. What offices does Christ execute as our Redeemer? Answer. Christ, as our Redeemer, executes the office of Prophet, Priest, and King, both in the estate of His humiliation and exaltation.

He executes the office of King. Question 24. How does Christ execute the office of a Prophet? Christ executes the office of a Prophet in revealing to us by His Word and Spirit the will of God for our salvation.

Question 25. How does Christ execute the office of a Priest? Christ executes the office of a Priest in His offering up of Himself a sacrifice to satisfy divine justice, to reconcile us to God, and make continual intercession for us.

That's the work of the Priest, sacrifice and intercession. The next question, 26. How does Christ execute the office of a King? Christ executes the office of a King in subduing us to Himself. The sinner must not only want the sacrifice, but he must be subdued to Christ by subduing us to Himself in ruling and defending us, in restraining and conquering all His enemies and ours.

First, you see, He's anointed King to rule over all things. He's the Priest who procured pardon and peace by the blood of His cross and maintains that peace by His intercession. He's the Prophet to be our wise teacher and counselor in all cases.

Now, what office does the false believer want? It's obvious. He doesn't mind having a Priest, but don't talk to me about that King business. He doesn't mind having a Priest, but he doesn't want to be instructed in the way of righteousness.

He's not even keenly pursuing it. Now, don't misunderstand me. I know there's a lot of people that are Christians who are not familiar with this catechism language, but they are familiar with it in experience in their heart, the principles involved here.

I remember once I was speaking at a Presbyterian Young People's Conference, and a young girl about 18 came to me who hadn't been catechized. She had not come up through that particular communion. And I was speaking about the Prophet, the Priest, and the King.

And she said to me, Mr. Risinger, she said, I believe I'm a Christian, but she said, I never heard of that. And she said, I never trusted Christ as my Prophet, Priest, and King. And I said to her, let me ask you a couple questions.

I said, when you came to Christ as your Savior, did you have a desire to be taught of Him, to know His will, to be instructed by Him? She said, yes. I said, did you desire for Him to rule your life and reign over you?

She said, yes. I said, well, I believe your experience is better than your understanding, and maybe tonight your understanding caught up with your experience. And so bear in mind that I'm not saying that everybody that doesn't have this particular language doesn't have it in principle or in experience, because they may.

But I say to you tonight, don't miss this point either. This morning, excuse me. Don't miss this point. What office does a spurious believer want? Obviously, he doesn't mind having this personal Savior business.

And you know, we're guilty. The best of preachers are guilty sometimes, even who know His principle in their implications in proclamation and their implications in witnessing and their implications as they teach.

We must be careful of the implications. Now if you read, this shouldn't be strange to you. If you read Charles Hodge in Volume 3, you'll find that he talks about speculative or dead faith. You'll find that he talks about temporary faith, and this is what he calls it.

Quote, Nothing is more common than for the gospel to produce a temporary impression, more or less deep and lasting. Those thus impressed believe, but having no root in themselves, sooner or later they fall away.

He's describing temporary faith. Now if that's a possibility, if that's a possibility, how can I unequivocally say to any particular individual, young or old, in evangelism, that they are positively unequivocally saved?

I'm talking about me saying it. For them. Robert Dabney and Charles Hodge thought he was the greatest theologian of his day. And of course, Dabney thought Charles Hodge was, so I don't know. It might have been just a little...

I can't tell that, but at least Charles Hodge had a great opinion of Robert Dabney, and I personally believe he's one of the two greatest Presbyterian theologians in the Southern Church ever produced.

The other, and he was Professor of Theology at Union Seminary, and the other one, of course, is Thornwell. And there's quite a debate, even among the Southern Presbyterians, who they consider, and it's not, they don't have any unanimity on that subject.

Well, Dabney was also the chaplain for Stonewall Jackson. But in his theology, which is hard to come by, he mentions four kinds of faith. Historical, temporary, saving, and miraculous. Now, I want to just read a little bit on this point.

He said true faith, now get this, this is years ago, and if it was true then, it's a thousand times more true now. Because we're so saturated with cynicism that it's worse now than it was in his day. True faith embraces Christ substantially in all of his offices.

This must be of prime importance. And then referring to the danger of teaching and preaching only the priestly or perpetuatory work, Dabney says, this is a warning and a danger about just preaching the priestly work of Christ, he said this, this teaching, referring to just preaching the priestly work, this teaching is far too common, at least by implication in our pulpits.

It results in temporary faith which embraces Christ for importunity only, instead of deliverance from sin. Dabney, referring to the shorter catechism says, our catechism defines faith as embracing Christ as he's offered in the gospel.

And he's never offered as a priest alone. He's never offered as a priest apart from his prophetic office. These are his offices. These are his offices. And he's never, you don't divide his offices. He that hath the Son hath life, and when you have the Son you have all his offices.

You can't be picky and choosy. And that's what he's talking about. He says our catechism defines faith as embracing Christ as he's offered in the gospel. And just further, the quote, the tendency of human selfishness is ever to degrade Christ's sacrifice into a mere expedient for bestowing impunity.

The pastor can never be too explicit in teaching this. In teaching, this is the travesty of the gospel, and that no one rises above the faith of the stony ground here until he embraces Christ as a deliverer from depravity and sin as well as hell.

I was going to read that question from the shorter catechism, but I won't. Let me read a quote from Spurgeon. You'll condescend to listen to a Baptist quote, won't you? I hope. Spurgeon, in warning his students, said this.

It was a quote. If the professed convert distinctly and deliberately declares that he knows the Lord's will but does not mean to attend to it, you are not to pamper his presumptions. It is your duty to assure him that he is not saved.

Do not suppose that the gospel is magnified or God is glorified by going to the world and telling them that they are saved at this moment by simply accepting Christ as their Savior while they are wedded to their idols and their hearts still in love with sin.

If I do so, I tell them a lie. I pervert the gospel. I insult Christ and I turn the grace of God into lasciviousness. Spurgeon went on to say it is interesting to notice that the apostles preached the Lordship of Christ.

The word Savior only occurs twice in the Acts of the Apostles. On the other hand, it is amazing to notice that the title Lord is mentioned 92 times, the Lord Jesus 13 times, the Lord Jesus Christ 6 times in the same book.

The gospel is, says Spurgeon, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Matthew Henry, in his introduction to the New Testament, now I know it's not so good to say Matthew Henry around seminaries because he's not very critical and it's kind of old English and all that sort of thing.

I don't usually mention him in seminaries. But I find these fellows, when I meet some of these preachers after they've been out about 10 years, they've learned a great lesson that God didn't call them to feed giraffes but sheep.

And then they turn back to old Matthew Henry again and they read him. In his introduction to the New Testament, Matthew Henry says this. All the grace contained in this book referring to the New Testament is owing to Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

And unless we consent to Him as our Lord, we can expect no benefit by Him as our Savior. Now you see, all these heretical doctrines of the second blessing and the divided Christ, you trust Christ as your Savior at one time and the Lord at another time, and all these second blessing things, I don't care what shade they take or what form they take, they're all as a result of faulty evangelism.

Because these people make a profession of faith. The church calls them Christians. The preacher calls them Christians. Their friends call them Christians. But they don't act like Christians! And so we have to get them to come down front for something else.

Well, the problem with him is he trusts Christ as his Savior, but he doesn't know Christ as his Lord. That's a travesty! That's a contradiction of terms! That's wicked! It deceives sinners! And all these things, bar none, every one, is a result of faulty, bad evangelism.

Catechism tells us that we must receive Christ as He's offered in the gospel. The only way He's offered is as a mediator. And as a mediator, He's the Lord with three principal offices as prophet, priest, and king.

And the true believer says, I want a Savior! I want somebody to instruct me! I want a king to rule over me! And the spurious believer says, I'd like to have a Savior. I don't want to go to hell. Who wants to go to hell anyhow?

And so you get him to nod to Jesus and get him on your roll. If he's in a Baptist church, you baptize him in the evening service and give his testimony next week. That's evangelism. And it has a very pertinent part of it to be sure that the Christ we preach is the one of the New Testament.

The one who's prophet, priest, and king of His church. And you don't get in by just tipping your hat to Him and all that. Well, that's the second difference between a true believer and a false believer.

The true believer wants Christ as He's offered in the Bible. The spurious believer says, I don't mind having a Savior, but don't talk to me about those other things. That's a distinct difference. Now, I'm not saying who they are.

That's something else. That comes under God's business. That doesn't come under the head of our business to decide who they are in every case. Or any case, maybe. That's God's business. But it is our business to set before them what that is and what's involved.

Counting the Cost of Following Christ

And that leads right into the next point. And that's another difference. The false and the temporary believer never comes to Christ and receives Christ, or closes with Christ, and all the inconveniences that follow.

And there are some. This idea that Christ solves all your problems when you become a Christian is a lie. He creates some problems. He creates as many as He solves. They're blessed. But that business of coming to Christ and asking Him to solve all your problems like He's a psychological grandmother or something.

No, sir. He creates some problems. I know some homes are divided over Christ today. Right now. Not something I read in the history of the Bible. I know homes that are divided over Christ. I met a boy who was thrown out of his home over Christ.

He's a Jewish lad. Years ago I met him. Helped him through school. Over Christ. I tell you, when he came to Christ, it didn't solve all his problems. It created a problem he never had before. There isn't a man or a boy or a young man or a young woman in this building this morning.

If you're living for Christ, it costs you something. It's not easy to be a Christian in school. Not even in seminary, I suppose. Much more so out where you don't have any fellowship. Christ causes some problems.

Well, the temporary believer never closes with Christ with those inconveniences that follow. They want Christ, but not the cost. They don't mind this little gospel. Hey, lads! But they're not like the disciples who said we've left all to follow thee.

And I must say here at this point, and may the Lord forgive me, and I hope he forgives you, I haven't always seen this point, and I've not always been as honest with people, and I believe right here's another place in the evangelist.

We must be as honest as Christ was with people at the outset. We must be honest with him at the beginning. Instead of just trying to think of getting more statistics on our role. Mr. Conley last night talked about the church.

I say amen from my heart to all he said. That's it. A holy life. A church. Pastoring people. That's it. That live different. But if that's true, and I believe it with all my heart, then we've got to be a little honest with him at the beginning.

And we wouldn't have our churches loaded! Loaded! With people who give no Bible evidence of salvation. That's what these young people, that Mr. Conley, that's what they don't like! He mentioned it last night.

I've talked to some. They say, don't talk to me about those God words! They call them the God words! I'm not interested in God words! Not God's word, but God words. They're God words. It's all at the bottom of it.

Because our people, our churches are full of people who do not give Bible evidence of being converted. And I think we do them great harm to keep on telling them they are. When down in our heart, if we read our Bible, we'll know they don't give Bible evidence of it.