Theodosius, Ambrose, and the Relationship Between State and Church

Well, greetings and welcome to The Dividing Line. Here we are on a I think it's Tuesday. Yeah, I think it's Tuesday. We're finally getting the triple digits here in Phoenix. But honestly, this has been so weird.

I mean, I'm really concerned about the water situation in the West. Really concerned. I mean, Lake Powell is falling so fast that Glen Canyon Dam will not be able to generate electricity in a relatively short period of time.

It's never happened before. And I follow this one guy seems to really be. You know, he's right in the middle of the road on all sorts of stuff. So sometimes he posts stuff that makes me, you know, but he tries, obviously, to be consistent.

And he's been warned about this stuff for quite some time. And he says, hey, we've been living on the 1980s for a long time. There was a lot of rain in the 1980s. And the aquifer in the Midwest that all those all those wonderful fields of wheat and corn are dependent upon, it's drying up.

And, you know, there was a day when in our nation, drought, famine, pestilence, what did the whole nation do? They prayed. They called for repentance. This nation can't pray or call for repentance any longer.

I mean, when when actual believing Christians represent a tiny, tiny proportion of of the of the population, and I do mean a tiny proportion. I know, you know, when people are forced to answer a survey question, well, I'm a Christian.

Let's just be honest. For people who on a daily basis think about right and wrong based upon God's law, based upon Christ's teachings. What percentage is that? It's a tiny percentage. And how many times has God used drought to punish a nation, punish a people, to take a nation down?

Yeah, we're we're in severe drought in the West. Not so much the East. The East is OK as far as water is concerned. But this has been a weird year. I mean, we hit one hundred and five degrees in March, a whole new record.

Two days in a row, as I recall. And we're like, man, we don't need this to start this early. Come on, this is going to be going to October. But it didn't. And I don't I don't believe no, it has not hit one hundred and five again since March.

OK, and it's June 2nd. And I don't think it's one hundred and two right now, at least at my house. And OK, it's supposed to get up to one hundred and five tomorrow. All right. So one hundred and five, one hundred and three, one hundred and two, one hundred, one oh one.

That's for June in Phoenix. That's nothing. You know, I don't know what the record high for today is, but I'm sure it's probably over one hundred and ten. It's been weird. It's it's been strange. No choice about it.

It's it's like it decided to move June to March and now everything's pushed back. I don't know. All I know is we need a monsoon. We need a monsoon season big time here. But that would be a grace. That's a mercy.

And I can't pull it up right now. Well, I could actually. But the I believe a legitimate governor of the state of Arizona, when you oversee your own election. Yeah. Sorry, I don't buy that one at all.

Just a cowardly woman, cowardly woman. She wouldn't debate during the election. She she hides out. She's nothing. She's nothing but a much younger Joe Biden as far as having any meaningful participation.

Someone else is running the state just like someone else was running the country for four years. Katie Hobbs posted a picture of the executive building downtown with the LGBTQ flags on it from yesterday.

And I'm like, talk about inviting further drought. There it is. And you're not allowed to talk like that. We our society is so steeped in naturalistic materialism now. That even Christians are embarrassed to speak the way Christians spoke only 100 years ago.

And certainly spoke throughout church history about judgment and nations and. But yeah, we we have been. Most of our people have been so indoctrinated within the public brainwashing system. They call it education, but it's not that we're we're we'll look at the stories where God used drought to punish his people.

And we can just put that over there someplace. That's that was then. This is now doesn't happen anymore. Can't happen anymore. Well, that means no one's going to be praying. And certainly only a tiny percentage will be repenting.

So there you go. This came, I guess, about an hour ago. And I feel stupid. I there's a lot of things to make me feel stupid recently. You know, people say you think you're so smart. No, I don't. We the the Mobile Command Center is over at the dealership.

And we still have a leak. I'm not sure it's the same leak before as before. I what? It's a freak leak. Yeah, it's a freaky leak. Freaky leaky. We didn't have any real rain on this last trip, and I'd been hoping we would so I could test it.

But I took my truck and the RV through a truck wash. You know, those big, huge things normally near a Love's or a T .A. or Maverick or something like that. Maverick don't have them here in Arizona. They're nice places.

They they're a nice place to stop or like them. I'm wearing all the truck stops now, which which are the nicest trucks. T .A. is always the most beat up. Dirty, icky place to pull into. You can normally get through the line pretty quick.

But yeah, T .A. Love's is normally pretty nice, but long lines are longer. Maverick's normally pretty quick. Anyway, I went through this truck wash and I I get into the KOA down there in Wilcox and I get into the unit and there's water all over the floor in the studio office, whatever we call that wonderful little room in back.

And it's like, where did it come from? It's not coming from the roof. It's there's nothing on the on the table. It's coming up or sideways or something. And it was in the it was in the truck wash. You know, they're washing it off like they're supposed to.

And something's leaking. And it's like, wonder why? And hopefully they can find it. They have power washers. We're going to get it. We're going to get a free wash out of it one way or the other because they're going to be testing it.

So it wasn't very dirty anyways. So anyways, this came in. I have no idea what that has to do with what I was just saying. Oh, I was talking about things I feel stupid about. I might as well confess this.

I've got two things to get to today, don't worry. But, you know, you're so smart. No, I'm not. And Rich got caught on this, too, though. I'm the one living in the RV when I'm on the road. So it's it's me.

But we have a control panel on this thing. And it has little things for the various tanks. How full they are. Now, the black tank. Let me tell you something right now is irrelevant. I don't care what they say.

The black tank sensors are irrelevant. You will never know what's in there. You don't want to know what's in there, but you will never know what's in there. They they stop working. The very first trip out there that were worthless.

But the others should keep working. And it showed three gray tanks. But there are only two gray tank controls down below. And Rich and I are both looking at this thing. And what's weird is tank three, which we're not supposed to have a tank three.

Keeps going up and up and up and up. And this is just a mystery that leaves all of us, including the people at the place going, what is going on? So this last so we take it in. We've been talking about we go out and the maintenance guy goes.

So have you ever opened that one up? And there is a second. Place to attach a sewer hose. And it never crossed my mind because I've never had a unit that had two of them. This is the first one we've had to have to him.

So he turns the thing. Evidently, the stuff in the kitchen goes into a second gray tank and the stuff in the bathroom and the laundry goes into the front gray tank. And I'd only been emptying the front gray tank.

And so I just felt really stupid. I should have looked at it and gone, oh. That's what's going on here now. Still, it still shows three gray tanks. There's only two gray tanks. So one in three work to is, you know, that that confused us.

I've confused even them. So I wasn't completely stupid, but I should have figured that out. That should have been real obvious. And so this thing comes and Rich and I are looking at it. And I wrote it, it's got my name on it.

I should have been able to tell from the cover what it was. But then once I once I looked inside, I was able to figure it out. This is the Portuguese edition of whatever Christian needs to know about the Koran.

Portuguese edition. I'll cut out. OK, Toto could stop, oh, but it's easier. Say bear sober. I'll oh, I'll cut out, cut out. But our Christian needs to know about the car on it. I'm not sure why it seems so much thinner, I guess the the font size is a lot smaller, I could not read this without glasses on, that's for sure.

But available in Portuguese now. Yeah, that's it's always cool to see that kind of stuff. Yeah, I've never thought while writing, I wonder what this is going to look like in Portuguese or something, because.

That's just never that's never crossed my mind in anything I've written. What's it going to look like in a different language? Because I've never assumed that it was going to be translated in a different language, basically.

So. Yeah, fascinating to see. OK. All right. Let's let's see what this does here. There we go. One, this is not going to take long on this, but I ran across this and I was sitting there going, man, this is probably the biggest counter reformation name.

So. Bring us all up to speed. Reformation begins technically in 1517. The counter reformation really begins, the Council of Trent in the 1540s really starts picking up speed in the 1550s, 1560s, especially.

And so one of the you know, you have Francis de Sales, the Catholic controversy, you know, one of the big writers against reform theology and the Reformation, things like that. People that. That I read.

People that we should read if we're going to be dealing with the best the other side has to present, but man, I'm going to tell you something. It's pretty rare you run into the best the other side has to say anymore, just like it's pretty rare on our side, too.

It almost seems like the greater the ability to communicate thanks to the Internet. The more shallow we think everybody. Everybody. The less focused we are on the best argument. So that's one of the things I've been saying on the program.

You know, this Bishop Jacksie guy and the Mormons. I saw. Did you see that thing I posted in the channel? It's a it's an AI of Joseph Smith, buffed out clearly on steroids, and it's the Liberty Jail photograph, you know, where he's murdered.

And it's making him look like this superhero type guy. And I posted it in the in the chat channel. And I was like, you know, when I first started talking to Mormons in the 1980s, this never suggested itself as something I'd be dealing with in 40 years, 45 years.

It's just. Because there's there's no evidentiary value, there's there's just no value at all to it. It's pure entertainment. And it's I would. You know, I struggle with the people that, you know, turn Paul into a weightlifter or something like that.

I mean, he clearly was, even by his own testimony, was not anything to look at. So I just. It's a generational thing, you know, my generation is just like, oh, that's creepy. But the youth think it's the sadly the youth assign it evidentiary weight.

Like it has something to do with truth when it has nothing to do with truth at all. Which is a problem. So anyway, as I've been saying, there's. It's really a burden to me most of the time to. Try to find a way to interact with what's going on online simply because so much of it is just such a degradation of human intellect.

No interest in truth or consistency or historicity or anything like that. And so anyway, I ran across this, you know, he's he's a looks like he's a Roman Catholic priest and he's a entertaining speaker and he's energetic, you know, we've all seen ministers of every religion that look like they're bored out of their minds.

Being a religion minister of every religion always make you wonder just a little bit. And so it's sort of unusual to see a priest who's. Well, I have had seen some of those priests that are really raw, raw, raw, way, way, way too raw, raw, raw.

And that seems a little weird to imbalance. But here this guy's talking. And he's talking about something that. Comes up in any meaningful conversation we have with Roman Catholics about the gospel. And it has to do with the Lord's Supper, Eucharist, transubstantiation, eat my body, drink my blood, John six, all of it.

First Corinthians 11. And there have been the number of trees that have died and gallons of ink that have been spilled. On this topic is epic.

But ask yourself a question.

If you're not a Roman Catholic, if you're a believing, let's say, Reformed Evangelical, most of our audiences. Have you read any sound works that have any kind of polemical content to them in regards to Rome's view of the Eucharist that were written more than 50 years ago?

Have you read anything other than my books? I mean, I deal with it, obviously, in the Roman Catholic controversy, fatal flaw, stuff like that. But have you? From our side and even more so anything from the other side.

So I mentioned Francis de Sales Cardinal Bellarmine. Probably the biggest name. In the Counter Reformation and the generations thereafter. Protestant scholars recognized he was a force to be reckoned with and so they read him and they read him carefully.

And again, when I started doing apologetics, I didn't have anybody to tell me what to do. I learned as I went along. And I just knew, you know, they call it steel manning today. When you present the other side in its best, strongest form.

Unfortunately, what I'm discovering is very frequently what is defined as steel manning now. Is presenting the argument in its most emotional form or its most memed form. Its most visual form rather than its strongest form.

That's the scary part. That's what makes me go. A society that cannot think critically. A society that cannot analyze arguments is a society that can be controlled by anybody. And that's what we're seeing.

Same thing in the realm of religion. So anyway, the idea of steel manning was just natural to me. You know, when I finished reading all the Christian books I could find on Mormonism. I started reading all the Mormon books I could find on Mormonism.

You know, I saw all these books being cited in the Christian books as I'm making a list, you know. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Mormon doctrine. Articles of Faith. Jesus of Christ. Marvels, Working on Wonder.

And so I'm going to the LDS bookstore and I'm buying their books. Nobody told me to do it. It just seemed like, well, these are the sources. So I need to read the sources that, you know, I'm using secondary sources.

Christian responses to Mormonism. So I need to read what they are quoting from. Seemed rather logical and, you know, I'm stuck with that. Now I could defend that as the only proper way of doing things.

But at the time it was just like, you know, if someone's going to be talking about my faith, it'd be nice if they'd read the best stuff about my faith. And so I just think I need to be consistent. And it would have been a whole lot easier not to have that consistent commitment from the start.

But anyway, so Bellarmine was the big lifter. He was the big Roman Catholic scholar in dealing with these issues and making arguments. And for quite some time, if you're going to be responding to Roman Catholicism back in those days, you're going to be, if you're not responding to Bellarmine, you're not really responding to what Rome was putting out.

Now most Roman Catholics don't know who Bellarmine was today. And I think most Roman Catholics would struggle with some of his argumentation. Of course, he's far more conservative than almost anybody in the Magisterium today.

He would be considered absolutely radical. Two right wings instead of two left wings. But anyway, so that's the background of this little clip. It's all of 35 seconds. All this to get to 35 seconds. Can you believe that?

But here's the clip. And as you listen to it, as you watch it, ask yourself, why do people find this attractive and faith-promoting? And if as a Protestant, you're going, oh, that's shallow. Here's the question.

Do we do the same thing? Do we applaud when our side does the same thing? Sadly, I would say in many places, yeah. So here we go.

St. Robert Bellarmine at one point was in a debate with a Protestant about the Eucharist. And this guy, this Protestant guy got done with this whole thing about, like, it's not really Jesus, it's only a symbol of Jesus.

And he gets done with this whole kind of exposition. And Robert Bellarmine was kind of a funny guy. And he looks at the guy and he says, okay, let me just get this straight. You say, this is not Jesus' body and blood.

Jesus said, this is my body and blood. Just, if you were me, who do you think I should believe? I'm going to go with Jesus.

You see how that is a very common internet-style form of argumentation? It does not invite critical thought. It does not invite you to think about, what's the foundations of what's being said here? Because obviously, when Jesus says, this is my body and this is my blood, the issue is not, did he say the words?

The issue is, what did he mean by those words? What is the context? What is the flow of John chapter 6? What is the flow of the establishment of the Lord's Supper? Why is this so relevant that it was done at Passover?

With all sorts of symbols all over the table that represent the suffering of the people of Israel and all the rest of that stuff. That's what the issue is. And everybody, for hundreds of years after the Reformation, the plow boy, probably a hundred years after the Reformation, in a Protestant country, knew more about these types of arguments than most people preaching in pulpits today, on either side.

And so, it just strikes me that there's music going on. I don't know if there was music going on while he was speaking. Probably not. But, it just strikes me that people who are posting this, do they really think that was an argument?

Do they really think that it's just, well, Jesus said it, therefore just believe it. Yeah, well, Jesus said a lot of things that require you to listen to what he actually said. I mean, I've used the example, if you really want to get literalistic, you know, there's that one place, I think it's in Luke, where Jesus said, let these words sink deeply into your ears.

That's literally what the Greek says. That's the literal translation. I use this as an example of the difference between formal equivalency and dynamic equivalency. Those are older terms now, but, formal equivalency, let these words sink deeply into your ears.

Dynamic equivalency, now listen carefully to what I'm about to tell you. Now, one is the literal translation, the other is what Jesus communicated, what he meant to be saying. And, we can talk about which is best to have in a translation of the Bible and stuff like that.

But, hey, if you want to be a literalist, then these words need to sink into your ears, you know? I mean, no, you have to allow for context. You have to ask the question, when Jesus says, eat my flesh and drink my blood in John 6, had he already defined what that meant?

Yes, he had!

Many verses before, as coming and believing. That's how you do serious exegesis. That's how you listen to the text and let it speak for itself. All this, you know, there's all these assumptions being made by this guy.

I mean, think about it. If he was specifically referring to words from Last Supper, Jesus is still with the apostles. The sacrifice hasn't taken place yet. And yet, Rome has gone so far as to say that Jesus actually performed the miracle of transubstantiation before his sacrifice.

Didn't know that?

Yes, yes. And, in fact, they teach that Jesus ordained the apostles as priests when he said to them at the supper, do this in remembrance of me. Do this as an imperative, it's a command. And the only way you can do that is if you're a priest and have the power of transubstantiation.

Now, that is so far removed.

From anything that ever crossed the mind of any apostle, any apostolic writer, anybody in the early church, that it's astonishing. But that's the dogma of Rome. That's what they teach. And so, I remember the first time I ran into that was when Mitch Pack was throwing it out at our debate.

That was the second or third debate that I had even, no, one, two, three, fourth or fifth debate that I had even done. And so, that's how seriously it's taken. That is a massive amount of later development being anachronistically read back into the text.

And that is not respecting the text to allow that kind of later development to be determinative of what it's actually stating. That's completely different. So, there's so much of that kind of stuff out there and so many of our folks wouldn't know who Cardinal Bellarmine was.

But then again, most Roman Catholics today don't either. On Thursday, right now the plan is on Thursday that I'll be joined by the folks from Ward Radio who did the song a couple weeks ago, Good News, Mocking Calvinism from an LDS perspective.

And so, we're going to have a conversation just to be straightforward. Do you believe that inaccurate straw man mocking is the way forward in conversation? What do you know about Calvinism? What original study have you done of Calvinism?

Why did you misrepresent Calvinism? I need to... I'm going to have this ready. Our little straw man. And I've got my... It's not a Bic. It's one of those really cool ones. I'm not sure if the battery still works.

Oh, it does. Good. It does a little... Yeah, I can see it there. So I can probably light him up. That would be not good. Rich is saying don't do that. But I'll have my little straw man ready to go. Is that how we should do things?

Should I have done that in the books I've written on Mormonism? Why did I spend so much time quoting from the general authorities and from the publications of the first presidency and all the rest of that kind of stuff when I could have just mocked?

Why not?

You know?

We'll see how it all goes on Thursday. And then hopefully I'll have time by next Tuesday. I have been asked.

By.

By someone.

And it.

It's well worth it to look at it. Hans Nallis son of a nun at son of a nun. I very much enjoyed James White review of William Lane Craig's statements on the necessity of animal suffering. Shocker, WLC falls flat on his face.

He could have pointed to the Bible and said Adam sinned and brought death and suffering to every aspect of the world. Actually, William Lane Craig can't say that because he doesn't believe that. He doesn't.

Believe in.

A biblically historical Adam. He doesn't believe in federal headship. He doesn't believe in original sin. He's out there just doing his own thing. He says I'm just a biblicist. No, actually he's a Craigist.

William Lane Craig is the final authority for William Lane Craig. He's one of those guys there are four or five of them out there that honestly believe themselves to be so stinking brilliant that they can just ignore what everybody else has said in the past and just we're just going to do our thing and we're going to come up with our conclusions.

I'm going to try to find time to have that sort of queued up so we can listen not only to the argument as it was presented but to the response and just go how much better would it have been if the response that had been given had been based on biblical parameters.

Yeah, so we'll try to get to that next week Lord willing unless weird and wild things happen. So, what I want to do in the rest of the time we've got here is I want to tell you a story. Oops, that's not what I wanted.

What program was it? Oh yes, okay. There we go.

You've.

Probably heard it stated.

Remember.

Almost anything you hear about the council of Nicaea, the first council of Nicaea 325, not Nicaea 2 and 787. I cannot imagine.

A.

Greater chasm of difference between Nicaea 1 and Nicaea 2. Completely different things. Just, wow.

Anyway,.

Anytime you hear.

Someone saying, well at the council of Nicaea, they.

If it's.

Almost anything other than they argued.

About.

Homoousius, homoousius, and heteroousius which is what it was about, they're probably lying to you.

And what you.

Will hear over and over again,.

Well you know.

Emperor Constantine he made Christianity the official state religion.

Of Rome.

You'll see that all over the place. All over the place. Now, they generally don't know a lot of that. Was that the council of Nicaea in 325? Was that the Edict of Toleration in 313?

They don't know.

But Constantine did it. Now, there's a lot that needs to be said about Constantine. Constantine did die an Arian. He turned against Nicaea. His sons were Arians. Eastern Orthodoxy literally uses the Greek phrase isopostolos, equal to the apostles, of Constantine.

Nowhere near that. Not even close. But since Eastern Orthodoxy in general is 9th century Byzantine state religion, then you can see why Eastern Orthodoxy and the state just, you can't extricate them. I mean, you see what's going on?

Ukraine, Russia, the ethnic divisions amongst the Orthodox, there's historical reasons for all that stuff. There really is. Old calendar, new calendar, oh, there's this all sorts of stuff. Anyway, Constantine proclaimed Christianity a religio licita.

Up until the Edict of Tolerance. Actually, it wasn't even Constantine.

But he.

Promulgated this, made it empire-wide. Before this time, remember, 303 to 313, worst period of Christian persecution. Rome decides to wipe Christianity out. Everybody. So, 10 years, if you're a Christian, you die.

That's just, that's how we're going to do it. So, Christianity is a religio ilicita. An illicit religion. Because remember, in Roman Empire, Rome, you know, covered such vast areas so quickly.

That.

They're not.

Going to wipe out the religions of the native people. That's how you make martyrs. That's how you make sure you're constant war. No, you let the people have their religions. All they have to do is recognize the sovereignty of the emperor.

Now, that's going to develop over time. It's going to take a greater and greater point. But, Rome allowed for many licit religions, but Christianity wasn't.

One of them.

So, with the Constantinian Revolution, and with Constantine professing to be a Christian, even though he's not baptized, so right before his death, and by an Arian, people try to rewrite the history on that, but, anyway.

You have.

Christianity being.

Licit, no longer illicit, but it was not made the official religion of the state. What you need to know is that took place in 380 under Emperor Theodosius. Now, if you're thinking time-wise, okay, 380, and Rome in the West pretty much falls about 430.

So, you're only talking 50 years. And between Constantine and Theodosius,.

You have the Arian.

Resurgency, you have a pagan emperor, Julian the Apostate, who rejects Christianity, tries to wipe out Christianity. He was only emperor for like 3 years, so he didn't get a lot done, but interesting stuff going on.

But,.

When was Nicaea reaffirmed? 381. The Council of Constantinople. So, 380, Theodosius proclaims Christianity to be the religion of the Roman state, and outlaws everything else. There's persecution, there's expulsions, executions.

This is where you get Christian Nationalism. This is... They shouldn't be looking to Constantine, they should be looking to Theodosius. If you really want to get.

That.

Protestant-Franco guy, as some of these weirdos are saying. What? Christian prince, yes, he was a Christian prince.

Now,.

10 years later, 390. Sometime in the spring of 390,.

In a.

Town you may have heard of before called Thessalonica. Thessaloniki, in Greek today. There was a garrison of.

Photorati.

Now, what are Photorati? Photorati are basically barbarian troops, serving under Roman command. One of the clearest evidences of the degradation of the Roman Empire, starting only 100 years after Christ,.

Really,.

Is when you see mercenaries.

People being paid.

To do Rome's bidding, who are not actually Romans themselves. Mercenaries have a long history in warfare. They've played important roles, but they've also turned a lot of battles when they wouldn't hold, because they're just getting paid.

If it looks like they're about to get shellacked, they're going to run. Anyway, there were Gothic Photorati in Thessalonica under a Gothic military commander by the name of Botheric. Botheric arrested and imprisoned a popular charioteer.

Now, if we want to bring it up to modern times, he arrested I don't even know,.

Honestly,.

Have the NBA Finals, are they still in the playoffs? Sorry. I used to enjoy basketball, especially when my son was really into the Suns, Charles Barkley, that was fun back in the 90s. It's boring now.

When you can pick the ball up, run down the court, and smash it in without ever bouncing it once, who cares? It means you don't care about.

The game anymore.

They don't call travels on the guys. I think once you get past a certain number of millions of dollars per year in your contract, then you can travel all you want. I guess that's how it works.

I don't know.

Yeah, whatever. It's just not even worth watching anymore. Of course, all the woke stuff and everything else is just like, forget it. I'm not even sure who the big star in maybe the Finals coming up would be, if there's a big.

Name.

Let's say a few years ago, it was Steph Curry. Steph Curry can shoot the lights out from the neighboring parking lot. It would be like this guy arrested Steph Curry and put him in jail, and wouldn't let him out for the Finals.

There's this charioteer. He's the best there is. I guess he's got a lot of fans. Probably has a Facebook page. Stuff like that. Botheric refuses to let him go, even though the citizens of Thessalonica let him out, let him race.

We've got a big race coming up. This is important.

So,.

They riot. The citizens of Thessalonica riot. They overwhelm the garrison. Botheric and several of his officers are killed by the mob, and their bodies were reportedly dragged through the streets.

Which,.

Sadly, has happened many, many times down through history, in many, many different contexts.

Well,.

Theodosius.

Was.

Staying in Milan. Milan had sort of become the.

Capital.

Of the Western Roman Empire at this point.

And,.

So, what happened is, late April or May of 390, Imperial troops invited the population of Thessalonica to the Hippodrome ostensibly for games. And once the crowds were assembled and trapped inside, the soldiers were unleashed.

The massacre lasted approximately three hours. Ancient sources put the death toll at 7 ,000. Men, women, and children. Indiscriminate. The soldiers just came in, blocked the exits, and hacked people to death.

Um,.

They weren't looking for the people who actually killed Botheric, it was just, punish the city, and punish the people.

Now,.

I mentioned Milan. One of the, you know, the greatest ecclesiastical name at this point in church history is Ambrose of Milan. So Ambrose, for example, is going to have a huge impact on Augustine, who's going to come shortly thereafter.