Jeff Durbin and Ray Comfort on Abortion

Can I ask you to watch this video all the way through and to share it when you're done? Three years ago, Apology of Church wasn't actually on the front lines in the fight against abortion in our nation.

God gave us the opportunity to do so, and since that time, God has used Apology of Church to save over 60 babies from death at the local abortion mills, and he's actually used our witness and testimony through us just talking about it to raise up ministries, over 20 ministries across the nation to actually save babies at the local abortion mills.

We've had a plan to do more. We've had things in the works for a very, very long time, but we've been limited by finances, capital, the ability to actually do what we want to do, to equip Christians across the nation to do what we're doing, to give them resources, to engage in an all-out media campaign and assault, to flood the media, to change the conversation, to change hearts and minds of the gospel, and to end abortion at the state level immediately.

God has given to us an amazing opportunity to put everything in place. God has given to us a Christian who believes in this work, who wants to join together with us, and he is promising to match donations of up to $125 ,000.

That would give us a quarter of a million dollars to build the infrastructure we need to mobilize Christians across the country to do the work that we're doing, to engage in an all-out media assault, to change people's hearts and minds through the gospel, to change the conversation, and to begin a consistent Christian witness to end abortion at the state level immediately.

Imagine the end of abortion now. Your donation will be focused towards three strategic battle plans. First, mobilizing, equipping, and providing resources. We're going to build a national movement made up of local churches across the country.

We're going to teach Christians how to do ministry outside of their local abortion clinics. We're going to be holding a national conference in order to teach and equip pastors and church leaders to start their own abortion ministries locally, as well as how to mobilize and partner with other churches nearby.

Oh, and by the way, we're buying a bunch of pastors plane tickets so they can join us, too. Second, critical engagement through media. We're creating a revolutionary media infrastructure that will produce content from a Christian worldview.

This new media platform will inform and connect people around the world, broadcast live news programming, provide sharp and cutting commentary from a Christian worldview, and will finally allow a consistent and uncompromising biblical worldview to bring the truth about abortion into the mainstream conversation.

We want to flood the internet with content that engages with the gospel in such a way that it changes the conversation of our culture. Third, legislation. With gospel-centered media educating the nation, and the churches equipped and ready to fight with a consistent Christian position, we'll move towards applying pressure on local, state, and federal governments to finally, once and for all, end abortion now.

Join us, and let's match the entire $125 ,000 donation by visiting EndAbortionNow .com.

Hey, brother, how are you?

Good, Jeff. I can't see you, so this is by faith.

Yes, by faith.

That's right.

Hey, I was just in New Zealand in Christchurch, brother.

Really?

Yeah.

They talk funny, don't they?

They do.

They do. Very, very funny. Yeah, there was a few people that were reminiscing about the days where you were there.

I remember those days.

Yes.

So, beautiful. I was in Christchurch. That was the place that was affected by the earthquake.

Oh, it got destroyed. It was just wrecked.

Yeah.

Very sad.

Yeah, very, very sad. And then, shortly after I left, they had another one.

There's been 32 ,000 in 2016.

Nope.

32 ,000 earthquakes.

No kidding.

Yeah.

No kidding.

It's interesting, too. It's like, I guess they're on that same fault line that runs up to Japan. And so, when Japan gets it really bad, then they get it like a week later. And then, when they got that really big one, it just goes back and forth.

You know, if one gets it, the other's getting it.

Well, it's not their fault.

Right.

Yeah, that's very good. Yes, good.

Okay, let's take a moment together. That was one of those joke grenades.

Yes.

Yes. So, everybody knows, people that are watching this know both your ministry and my ministry. Ray is just really a gift to the church, and he leads Living Waters Ministries. If you guys haven't seen the 180 movie yet, I really encourage you to do so.

It's on YouTube, 180 movie. It's powerful. It really, really is well done. It's a film done by Christians that actually locks you into it. And we had Ray on not too long ago talking about his movie on atheism, which was also very, very excellent.

And I wanted to bring you on, Ray, to talk to you about the issue of abortion. And I think it's important for us to begin to engage this in a way that's really meaningful and begins to unify the church across, really around the world, but particularly where we're at right now, the United States, as to how we actually approach the issue of abortion.

So, I guess let's start there. The 180 movie. Talk about that. Why did you do it? What was your goal in making that film?

The 180 movie was a mistake. It was an unplanned pregnancy. I'd written a book called Hitler, God, and the Bible. And I wanted to do a video on Hitler's religion, which is a very fascinating subject.

Yes.

Because he had a belief in God, and he was an idolater. He wasn't an atheist. He had his own concept of God. So, I went to a local college, and I began interviewing people about Hitler's religion. And I said, have you heard of Adolf Hitler?

And people kept saying, no. Who's he? And I thought, am I on another planet? What's going on here?

Shocking.

And then I saw this guy with dreadlocks, and I thought, man, he would be great. And so I went up to him. I said, would you come on camera and talk about the Holocaust and Hitler? He said, absolutely. And he looked really good on camera.

He was colorful in personality and hair on his shoulders. He looked great. And he was indignant about what Hitler did. He was very angry. And so just off the cuff, I said to him, well, what do you think about abortion?

He says, it's the woman's right to choose. I said, you're no different than the Nazis. And we just had a sword fight, because I said, is it a baby in the womb? And so it's okay to kill a baby when? And he got angry.

This is after about four or five minutes, sword fighting. And he just walked off, just stomped off, so angry, because he couldn't answer me when I said, when's it okay to kill a baby in a womb? And as he walked off, I filmed him, and I zoomed up skillfully.

And then I pushed the button, went bong, and I saw the film came on. And what had happened in the brightness of the sun and wanting to go into a shadow with him, I turned the camera, which was already running, off for the interview and on at the end.

And I'd missed the interview, and I just about cried. I thought, this is horrible.

Whoops, sorry about that.

That's all right.

I just about cried. And I thought, this is just crazy. And I was so embarrassed, I didn't tell anyone for a week. But I thought, you know, that worked, that question, it's okay to kill a baby in the womb when, stopped his mouth, because anger is a sign of conviction.

So I went back and began asking the same question and found that we had a video with people changing their minds about the issue of abortion. And if I may, Jeff, can I just tell you my first introduction to the whole issue of abortion?

Please, yes.

It was in 1973, and I'd just become a Christian in 1972, and I had no idea what abortion was about. I just thought, what is it in the womb? I didn't have any idea. And someone showed me a photograph, a black and white picture, of the work of a Canadian abortion hospital, and it was a bag full of about six or eight dead babies.

And I stared at this picture, and I was horrified. I was indignant. I was fuming. I thought, this is what it's about. So I went and got that picture blown up to about 18 inches by 20 inches, and I'd started preaching in our local square in the city of Christchurch in New Zealand in 1973.

That's when I first started. So I took it in to hold up to the crowd. And as I went in, I noticed there was actually an abortion rally that day to my right. So I went over, carried the photo with me, and I noticed they were talking about a woman's right, but they forgot to put a photo of what was going on when it came to abortion on this frame they had up there.

So I pinned the photo of the aborted babies to the frame, and a woman came across and hit me with her handbag. And that was my introduction to the issue of abortion. And since then, I've done everything I can in my books and papers we put out in our television program.

I've tried to deal with the issue of abortion, and that's why I was so pleased that we found that we had 180 on our hands, and it wasn't about Hitler's religion. It was a pro-life movie. And we're pleased to say, beyond words, that it's had over 5 million views, and I think well over a million DVDs have gone out, which is wonderful.

Those get handed out pretty often at the local abortion mills that we go to. You know, actually, Ray, if you think about it, you've got to really be doing something to agitate when you're in Christchurch, New Zealand, and you get hit with a handbag.

That's hard to do in New Zealand. New Zealanders, that's not really their MO. That's not really how they hang with things.

Yeah, they're very quiet and shy and laid-back, like myself.

Yes.

I was in, I don't know how long was it, I guess maybe two weeks. I was in Australia, and then I went to New Zealand. I was in Christchurch. Just the difference between Australia and New Zealand in terms of speed and just the tempo of it all and the spirit.

New Zealanders are generally kind of chill and very relaxed.

Australians talk more like this, don't they? They'll give you a veggie mic to eat and stuff like that. They've got these huge mice with pockets in front that bounce around. It's quite an amazing place, Australia.

But there is a difference between the two countries.

There definitely is. I did notice how quiet New Zealand was. It was just very, very quiet all of the time. It's a special place, and the people are so relaxed.

A famous man went through New Zealand. He went through Auckland years ago. He says, I dropped in at New Zealand, but it was closed. And that's how he summed it up.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay, so one of the things that I really appreciated, Ray, about the 180 movie and how you actually went about getting across your point, well, there's a couple of things.

One is I really appreciated the fact that you kept introducing the moral foundations of the issue. You were calling it murder. And that's not something that you will always see people who are in the quote-unquote pro-life movement doing these days.

There are people who do, and then there are a lot of people who don't. They don't want to go there. They don't want to say people who have abortions are actually murderers and they're committing murder.

But I also really appreciated the fact that when you approached the issue in the film, Ray, you approached it, Proverbs 24, where answer the fool according to their folly. You went into their pre-beliefs, what they believe is foundation, and then you used that to demonstrate to them the inconsistency of their position.

And they changed their mind on camera. You have the shift take place before your very eyes. So let me ask you about that, the first point. Ray, why do you do that? Why do you think it's so important to use the word murder and to bring the law of God into it?

Because the conscience is your friend. It's an ally right in the heart of the enemy. And if you want to speak to a human being about the things of God, you can't address the intellect if you want, but it's the place of argument.

You're going to get contention, Romans 8, verse 7. What you want to do is do what Jesus did and use the moral law to get to the conscience, like Mark 10, verse 17. You know the commandments, Jesus said, and then he named them.

And Paul in Romans 2, you say you shall not steal, do you steal? So when you talk about murdering in the context of the commandments, then God comes to the equation, the conscience does its duty. You know, when the movie first came out, I showed it to a few high-profile people, and one of them said to me, take the gospel out.

You have a powerful, powerful movie here. Just remove the gospel. It will go far further as a pro-life movie. And I remember thinking, boy, you've got more chance of flossing the back teeth of the lions at the LA Zoo at feeding time than you have of me taking the gospel out.

That's the reason Christians exist. That's why the church exists on the earth. It's not to make the world pro-life. It's to prepare them for the day of judgment, the day of wrath, that they might be saved from the wrath to come.

It's as though we've forgotten that hell exists. And so the way to deal with the pro-life issue is with the gospel. When I became a Christian, the second I got right with God, I was pro-marriage, one man, one woman, pro-life, anti-blasphemy, anti-adultery, anti-fornication, everything God loved, I loved instantly because he gave me his Holy Spirit, wrote his law upon my heart, and caused me to walk in his statutes in a moment of time.

And so what we've got to remember is that the gospel is the power of God to salvation, and we always take that in our hand when we deal with any issue, whether it be homosexuality, adultery, abortion, fornication, pornography, any of these issues that have raised their ugly head, we've got to take the gospel because that's why we exist as Christians.

You know, Ray, it's so comforting to hear you say that because one of my struggles as we've been engaged as a church on the front lines for the last couple of years, going to bring the gospel to the abortion mills, trying to preach the gospel and to rescue babies and to offer help, I've had a struggle, and that is in terms of looking at the pro-life movement generally for the last 40 years, doing precisely what you explained in that story, saying, let's take a backdoor approach to this issue, let's not use the scriptures, let's not make it about the Bible, let's not make it about the law of God, let's not make it about Jesus, and I believe fundamentally that the only way that people's hearts change is because of the gospel, because of regeneration, because of the work of God in their life, and I don't believe that it's possible for our nation to get out of this national sin without a heart change, and I'm in agreement with you that it must be about the gospel, and we have to do it in a bold way and communicate in a bold way because the ultimate end here is for the salvation of people's souls.

It's for their relationship with God, it's for reconciliation and peace with God through Christ, and so you use the word murder. You say murder, you talk about it as a child, and you say it's okay to kill a child, when?

And that's something that's distinct, Ray, in how you approached it in the 180 movie, how we approach it as a church, from how the pro-life movement generally approaches the issue. But Ray, what about the problem that exists in just that conflict that they're trying to avoid?

Look, Ray, people don't want to hear that they're murderers, they don't want it to be called murder. We should try to find a backdoor approach to this issue and not use Christian language. We should really try to focus on approaching the issue in a different way, maybe focusing on cleaner abortion mills or things like that.

How would you answer that person when they tell you to stop using the word murder?

You know, I would look at what Nathan did with David, and Nathan, when he approached David, had been commissioned by God, and he approached him firstly in the natural, he was reasonable with David, he just didn't walk in there and say, you murderer, you adulterer.

He said, you know, a man's stolen another man's lamb. He approached it gently, as we are too with the unsaved, to be gentle to all men. And so when David was indignant about the man who stole another man's lamb, that's when Nathan said, you other man, why have you despised the commandment of the Lord?

And it's then that David cried out, I've sinned against God. And so what we've got to do is bring sinners to the same point. Say, it's not man that you've sinned against, it's God. You have despised the commandment of the Lord.

You have taken the life of another human being. That law is written on your conscience. You know what you're doing is wrong. And it was when David cried out, I've sinned against heaven, that's when the gospel came.

Nathan then said, nevertheless, you shall not die, for God has put away your sin. And that's the order that we should approach sinners in. In the natural, then we should be bold, and be like Nathan, and say, you're the man, why have you despised the commandment of the Lord?

You've taken the life, or you want to take the life of a child, your offspring. You know, where is your conscience in this? Have you got no fear of God? Don't you know the Bible says no murderer has eternal life?

Hell is a reality, and if you hate someone, you commit murder in your heart. He that hates his brother is a murderer. So how much more are you sinning against God by killing the life of your child that God's entrusted you with?

And once they're contrite, and they begin to tremble, like Felix trembled, that's what we should cause sinners to do. When Paul reasoned with Felix, he trembled. And so when we reason with people like that, using the conscience, they're to tremble.

And when they tremble and say, what should I do? That's when they hear the gospel. Nevertheless, you shall not die, for God has put away your sin through the cross. You need to repent and trust the Savior.

So I think one of the reasons that they're hesitant is they don't really know how to handle it, and they probably need to be trained to say, look, you can do this. Don't pray for less fear. Pray for more love.

I mean, this person who's going to kill their child, do you love them? Do you love the child? Are you concerned that they're going to go to hell if they die in their sins? So if you've got love, you'll want to reach them for the gospel's sake because you don't want to talk them into not killing their baby, and they go out and continue in their sin and end up damned in hell forever.

You don't want that to happen if you're a Christian.

That's right.

So, Ray, could you speak to the person for a minute? I mean, here's the thing. Your video's been seen, like you said, by over 5 million people on YouTube. I know for a fact that there have been so many DVDs handed out and viewed by people.

When we go to the local abortion mills, sometimes we hand out the 180 movie and others that we've seen around the mills hand it out as well. A lot of people have seen this. They've been changed by it.

But a lot of people feel like, okay, look, if I go to the abortion mill to bring the gospel and try to love these men and women, I'm afraid, Ray, that I won't really know what to say. I don't really feel equipped.

And you were kind of alluding to that a moment ago in terms of you need to work on loving these people and we have to trust God and allow him to use us. But let's take a stab at a few things just to show generally that this is not this insurmountable task.

So the person says to you, well, Ray, the problem is you need to see the exceptions. What about if the woman was raped? We have to at least show mercy to the woman who was raped. It's permissible to kill a child when she is raped.

You don't kill the innocent child for the crime of the father. It's just crazy. I like to say to people that think a child should be murdered because the father committed a crime and raped the mother, I say you could have been the product of rape.

Your dad came home years ago drunk and he forced your mom into sex. She did not give consent. He virtually raped her. Should we kill you because of the crime of your father? And obviously, no, your life is precious to you.

You're innocent. You had nothing to do with that crime. And if anyone should be punished, it should be the father. And so this whole trying to justify the killing of a child through these different arguments is just so crazy, so unfounded.

And like I say, that's why we need to bring the gospel into it because you answer somebody's question. It's got their mind set on being pro-abortion without the fear of God coming in the equation. They'll probably just stay in that mindset.

What you've got to do is say, look, there's a God that sees everything you do and take them through the commandments and don't just talk about abortion. Talk about blasphemy and lying and stealing. That's what Jesus did.

That's what Paul did. And say you're in big trouble on Judgment Day so you see a heart change. And that's what we want to see. And that's what we need to do with this nation. Yes, we should outlaw abortion.

We should bring in laws that forbid it, obviously. But we don't want to get America back to as it was in the 1950s when you didn't lock your door and there wasn't a crime and the terrible things happening because in the 1950s, America was still under the wrath of God for its sin.

And so we can just make a great big Pharisee out of America. We don't want to do that. We want to see it saved from God's wrath. We want to see people genuinely converted.

That's right.

And that always brings me back to the gospel.

Ray, music to my ears, brother. Okay, so one more thing I wanted to ask you about. We as a church ourselves are on the front lines. We've encouraged a lot of churches across the country and even in Canada to get about the ministry of bringing the gospel to the front lines and trying to offer hope and to minister with the gospel at the mills and to save babies and to offer adoption, those sorts of things.

But people might say, Ray, okay, they see what you're doing in 180. They say, okay, but Ray, here's the thing. The fact that you're talking about a murder and you're using the language that you are and you're going about and you're getting in front of people and you're having this really volatile discussion, I don't think that's the way you win people, Ray.

I just don't think that that is effective ministry. I don't really think you should go and get in front of people and talk about this very difficult subject because that's not how you're going to win people.

What would you say to people that warn you about getting involved in this kind of difficult ministry?

It says in the Book of Proverbs, if you know someone's in terrible danger and you do nothing about it, you're responsible. There's blood on your hands, it says in Ezekiel. So we need to stand up as a church.

I mean, you go back to what happened to Nazi Germany. You don't want to argue with Germans about killing Jews. Just let it happen. No, you've got to speak up. But the thing is, we can do it in love. And I know people sometimes accuse me of all sorts of things and they don't know my heart.

I mean, I'm motivated by love. When I talk about hell, I'm not motivated by hate. I'm motivated by love. I care about the lost. And, you know, we talked about not knowing what to say. You know, I get a lot of thoughts in the shower.

My shower is like a closet. You know, Jesus said, when you pray, go into a closet. There's no one else in there, believe it or not. I'm isolated and I'm very relaxed with a hot shower. And I actually have got a pencil on the wall of my shower that I pull off and I write all over the shower wall and get different thoughts.

And in the shower, I practice what I preach. I go through different thoughts and scenarios. So you need to do that with witnessing. Practice in the shower, practice to the mirror, practice on your dog, practice on a friend, practice what you preach.

So that when people come to you and say, how come there's suffering? You know, where's God? So you know what to say. Suffering actually proves what the Bible says is true. We live in a fallen creation.

We have disease, pain, suffering, and death because we live in a fallen creation. So don't use suffering as an excuse to reject God when there's very real reason as to why we should accept the testimony of Scripture.

And so you just go over these scenarios, these different thoughts in your heart so that you're ready. Train yourself. Study to show yourself approved, a workman that needs not be ashamed. So you don't want to be ashamed.

You don't want to say to someone, oh, I don't know how to handle that. This is the issue of life and death. The human life could be at stake, the life in the womb, the woman you're talking to, and the life of the woman herself because of her salvation.

That's right.

So, Ray, we've tried to start a movement. Really, it's a catch cry. End abortion now. And we want to try to equip local churches across the United States to work together, to go to the front lines, to preach the gospel, to try to rescue babies and try to provide for the needs of these women and these men that are there.

We want to communicate the gospel related to this issue across the nation, calling it what it is, bringing it back to the gospel, offering the hope that's in Christ. And we want to work towards what you described, and that's really outlawing abortion and, of course, calling it what it is on a national level.

But we really want to see the heart of the nation changed. One of the things we would love to do in the midst of all that is really equip the church. And so we want to point people to solid resources that are very, very helpful in this particular area.

And your movie, the 180 movie, is just superb. It is helpful. So I'd like you to tell everyone specifically where to go, how they can link up even with you to be able to get that movie and even to distribute it and get DVDs themselves.

Yeah, well, it's free on YouTube, 180movie .com. I think that's it, yeah, 180movie .com. And you can get DVDs from our ministry at a really low price. And we've started the Ambassadors Academy again. So anyone who's interested in being trained up here in Southern California and spending three days with us, being taught and actually going open air, preaching one-to-one witnessing in Hollywood and Huntington Beach and different places, just check our website out, livingwaters .com or ambassadorsacademy .com for details about the Ambassadors Academy.

Hey, thank you for letting me say that.

Oh, absolutely, of course. All right, guys, so make sure you get connected to Ray. Definitely encourage you to check out the 180 movie. It would be really, really useful if you got a group together at your church and you guys just get together to watch the 180 movie.

It is fantastic. I really appreciate Ray and his approach to this entire issue, dealing with it with the spirit of love and grace and compassion, mercy for those who he's talking to, bringing it back to the foundations of what actually is abortion, calling people to repentance and faith, making the issue bigger than abortion.

It's really about the total life, all of us needing to be reconciled to God, not from any one particular sin but all of our sins. That's very, very useful, helpful, and so we're grateful for you and your work, brother.

So thank you for all that you've been doing.

Hey, thanks, Jeff. Appreciate it.

Absolutely. God bless you, brother. Talk to you hopefully soon.

Thank you.

Imagine the end of abortion now. Your donation will be focused towards three strategic battle plans. First, mobilizing, equipping, and providing resources. We're going to build a national movement made up of local churches across the country.

We're going to teach Christians how to do ministry outside of their local abortion clinics. We're going to be holding a national conference in order to teach and equip pastors and church leaders to start their own abortion ministries locally, as well as how to mobilize and partner with other churches nearby.

Oh, and by the way, we're buying a bunch of pastors plane tickets so they can join us too. Second, critical engagement through media. We're creating a revolutionary media infrastructure that will produce content from a Christian worldview.

This new media platform will inform and connect people around the world, broadcast live news programming, provide sharp and cutting commentary from a Christian worldview, and will finally allow a consistent and uncompromising biblical worldview to bring the truth about abortion into the mainstream conversation.

We want to flood the internet with content that engages with the gospel in such a way that it changes the conversation of our culture. Third, legislation. With gospel-centered media educating the nation, and the churches equipped and ready to fight with a consistent Christian position, we'll move towards applying pressure on local, state, and federal governments to finally, once and for all, end abortion now.

Join us, and let's match the entire $125 ,000 donation by visiting endabortionnow .com.