May 13, 2025 Show with Dr. James R. White on “Preparing Viewers for the Debate with Darkness: A Preview of the Upcoming Debate with White Supremacist Corey Mahler”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 13th day of May, 2025, and I am so thrilled, as I always am, to have a return visit from one of my oldest friends in the

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Christian faith, anyway. His name is Dr. James R. White, definitely no stranger to the vast majority, if not everybody in the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience, world -renowned New Testament Greek scholar, seasoned debater, prolific author, and one of the pastors at Apologia Church in Mesa, Arizona, in addition to being professor of apologetics and church history at Grace Bible Theological Seminary in Conway, Arkansas, and director of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

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Today, we are going to prepare viewers for the debate with darkness, a preview of the upcoming debate with the avowed white supremacist, excommunicated

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Lutheran, Corey Mahler, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my dear friend

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Dr. James R. White. Hey, Chris, you want to know, you especially will be able to tell that you're getting really old.

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How? Guess whose birthday it is today? Guess who is 39 years old today?

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Is it summer? Josh. Oh, Josh. Wow. Wow. 39 years old.

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He'll be 40 next. For those that don't know my family, Josh is my firstborn.

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So yeah, I'll have a 40 -year -old next year. And of course, my oldest granddaughter is going to be 16 in December.

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So there you go. That's how you know that the seasons are passing you by.

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That and the fact that I had to rush here from the audiologist appointment to adjust my hearing aids.

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It does sound better, I have to admit. So yeah. Hey, it's great. You know, we could sit here for the first half hour talking about all of our medical appointments.

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You know, I remember when we were young, we'd be sitting in, let's say, one of the

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Long Island diners that you took me to so many times. And you'd hear the old folks in the booth next door, and they're talking about all their physical problems and doctors, and it's like, you're sitting there going,

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I'll never be like that. And the next thing you know, you wake up and here's them.

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That's just how it is. Anyways, yes. Back on Iron Sharpens Iron on the week of the debate.

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And also seeking to sort of rearrange things, not date -wise with you, but as you can probably figure out,

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I've got a big hole in my upcoming trip in September that I'm now seeking to fill, because I was going to be coming up to be with you right after the

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G3 conference, which isn't going to happen now. And so right now what we're thinking, what we want to do with Al Jamega is we want to try to blast

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Jeffrey Rice. And as you know, he got hit by a truck. I mean, you know, let's add up all the stuff.

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I think the guy wasn't licensed. It wasn't his truck, didn't have insurance. I mean, just check off all the boxes to leave you with your own medical bills to try to get yourself put back together again after getting hit by a vehicle.

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It's just the way life is these days in the United States. So we'll probably invest that time in doing something with him at his church to try to, you know, bring folks in and just, you know, do what we can do.

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That's what Al Jamega is about. We've always existed for local churches and and stuff like that.

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And so that's what we try to do and then go from Tennessee all the way up to Pennsylvania.

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Did you know that you're way up in the sort of the northeast part of the country? I just hope

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I really, really hope. Last time I came up there to see you, there was a long, long, long, single lane tunnel on one of the roads that I had to take.

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It was horrible. I mean, I wish I could remember which one that was, because I will drive to Florida to get around going through that tunnel again to get up there.

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I really, really will, because it was, whew, you were you'd have a semi coming the other direction and you could see the spinach in the teeth of the driver.

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That is how close we were. Oh, I was I was so glad to get out. I almost pulled over and just, you know, sort of got out of the car and, you know, saying praises to God or something, a truck, obviously, that last time around.

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But anyway. So, yeah, head in your direction and it'll be it'll be a long trip.

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You're going to be right at the end of it. I hope there's something left. I really do. I recall last time

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I did the your pastor's luncheon, I sat down to do my talk.

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Yeah, I was so I was so tired and I'm not getting any younger. So anyway, but I the one thing

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I can promise you is I will not wear funny colored slacks like Jobu. Well, I'm looking forward to it and I might as well quickly plug those events here in Pennsylvania before I forget to say them later.

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But on Thursday, September 18th, Dr. James R. White will once again be the keynote speaker at the

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Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio free pastor's luncheon. Admission is free, lunch is free, and everybody will get a sack of free brand new books donated by Christian publishers all over the

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United States, United Kingdom that have been personally selected by me. And then on that following Sunday, September 21st at 130 p .m.,

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a great time because that enables even pastors to attend this event since their own worship services will typically be over.

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But Dr. White will be speaking at the church where I am a member, Trinity Reform Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, pastored by Simon O'Maney, who has actually led to the reformed faith through the writing, teaching and preaching of Dr.

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White. And Dr. White will be speaking on Can We Trust the

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Bible Is the Authentic, Inherent Word of God. So that's going to be exciting and looking forward to both of those events.

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If you need any further details, just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail dot com and I'll give you all the information that you need.

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But we are discussing, as I already said, today, we're going to be providing a preview, as it were, of the upcoming debate with Corey Mahler, who is an avowed white supremacist, anti -Semite,

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Nazi sympathizer, Adolf Hitler admirer and excommunicated Lutheran.

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And the debate is going to be, I believe, two days from now on the 15th of May.

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And this is already stirred up a lot of controversy. The major negative feedback that I'm getting is not from white supremacists.

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It's from predominantly Lutherans who think it's ridiculous that you are allowing somebody like Corey Mahler to have what they would deem as a dignified position being in an academic debate and perhaps giving a lot more credibility to someone like him than he is deserving.

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So how do you respond to that kind of thing? We got the same kind of negative responses when

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I was publicizing your debate with Dr.

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Gregory Coles, who is a professing gay

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Christian, someone who believes in agreement with evangelicals that physically bringing that desire to fruition is wicked and even lust is wicked, no matter whether it's heterosexual or homosexual.

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But he believes that the state of being same -sex attracted is not the sin and Christians can boldly and proudly wear that as a label.

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And that was, I think, a phenomenal debate you did. And we got the same kind of negative feedback before the debate that this is ridiculous that you're even having somebody debate that.

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It's such an easily seen prohibition in the Bible, in both Testaments.

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So how do you respond to those people that think that this is nuts? Well, I think it'd be good if we actually mentioned what the thesis is.

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Because when I told the Church, Apologia Church, I think two weeks ago,

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Sunday night, right as it was being announced, what the topic was, they just gasped.

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They were just stunned. And the vast majority of people are stunned. The thesis is, can the

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Holy Spirit sanctify a black person as much as a white person? And for the vast majority of people, that's the dumbest thing you've ever heard in their life.

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It's a given. That's easy. And that's why the Stone Choir cult, which is what

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I call it, they have a webcast called the Stone Choir, but I call it the Stone Choir cult.

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That's why they're making inroads. That's why people who have their ear to the ground and understand what's going on in the

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Church recognize that these are the people today who are using social media to sneak into the

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Church. This is the same terminology that's used in Galatians Chapter 2, talking about the Judaizers who snuck in to spy out the freedom that we have in Christ.

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And we did not put up with them for even an hour. Well, you've got to know who they are to be able to refute them and to not put up with them for even an hour.

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So these people are making inroads. They're coming into our churches through cell phones, smartphones, tablets, computers, etc.,

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etc. And they are subverting primarily young men with all sorts of...

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Well, if you listen to them, I've likened it to... It's very, very similar, honestly.

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And most people have never done this. But I've sat and listened to talks by the

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General Authorities, the Mormon Church, in the General Conference. And it's the same type of thing.

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It's very calm. It's very collected. They say all sorts of true things.

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But they mix in just enough authority claims and put it in the wrong context to promote the heresies of Mormonism.

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Jehovah's Witnesses do the same thing at the district conventions. And if it's possible, even more boring than the talks at the

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General Conference, which is hard to do, but they do pull it off. And that's what...

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If you listen to the Stone Choir webcast, that's what you're going to get. You're going to get two people, primarily

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Corey Mahler and Ryan Woody Dumperth, who goes by the name

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Woe. Sitting there, very often saying true things.

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They'll talk about genetics. They'll talk about history. And they are presenting themselves as Christians.

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Corey Mahler is an excommunicated Lutheran from the LCMS. My understanding is that Dumperth was about to go under discipline, but fled his church before that could happen.

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And they're going to say all sorts of really undeniably true things.

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It is the context they place it in, the conclusions they draw that are the real issues.

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And since they're talking about stuff that isn't almost ever discussed within the Christian church, they tap into people's ignorances.

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And I am reminded of how Jehovah's Witnesses, and I'm not sure how much they do it these days, but they probably still do it.

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What they used to do is they would come into your home and they would start talking about the Bible and they would find, for example, they'd use the shape of the cross.

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Remember the big thing, the big stink? Yes. With Christianity today, they had the sort of leftist, quote, unquote, evangelical scholar that says

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Jesus wasn't nailed to the cross. It was probably just tied to the cross, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, everybody lost their minds.

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And I'm saying, man, if we covered that one forty seven thousand times because we deal with Jehovah's Witnesses, the witnesses will say, well, did you know that Jesus wasn't nailed to a cross?

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He was nailed to a torture stake. So it was only one nail through both hands above his head.

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And most people never even heard anything like that. And then they give their evidences.

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And what they're trying to do is they're they're trying to start separating you from your church.

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You know, they'll do the same thing with holidays, birthdays. You ever thought about what happened on Herod's birthday and John the

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Baptist lost his head? And, you know, Christians never celebrated that kind of thing. And so they're getting you to look at your church and they're trying to create separation so they can insert their own authority in that place.

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And that's what Stone Choir does. That's what these guys are doing. And what has happened and people need to have some of this background.

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They've been growing slowly, but. They what they're saying is being picked up by other people and other people with larger audiences are borrowing their concepts without necessarily giving credit to where they're getting these concepts and maybe not taking them to the same conclusions, but they're still using this material.

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And so back in January of this year, I have the quote up here. Corey Mahler wrote to me on Twitter publicly and said,

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I offer you this advice once. And then he hosts L .U. Throy is my Twitter handle. It means as free men.

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I offer you this advice once. Retire. Take what remains of your legacy and let it stand on its own without continuing to tear it down.

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If you decline, I can assure you that absolutely nothing will remain when you and we are done.

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So it sounds a little threatening when you think about it, and I've had a number of people contact me to say you need to take that stuff very seriously.

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And it's and it's meant that way. But what has happened is, I don't know, about two months ago or so now,

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Chris Rosenthal, who has been in battle with these folks, because he is a Lutheran and is not excommunicated.

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Chris Rosenthal had a conversation with Corey Mahler, an interview with Corey Mahler.

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And as interesting as it was, I was very disappointed. And I was disappointed because all it did was wandered around out in the weeds of Corey Mahler's very idiosyncratic views of what he says.

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He says that the entirety of the Christian faith hangs on two prophecies in Genesis, the protean evangelium in Genesis three.

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And the text in Genesis 9, 25 to 27, where you have the cursing of Canaan, Ham's son, and the blessings on Shem and Japheth.

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And so what Mahler and the Stone Choir does is they expand on Genesis 9 and 10, the table of nations, and they say, all of us came from one of the three.

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All the peoples of the earth come from either Ham, Shem, or Japheth, which,

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OK, is true in one sense. You have what they would call a genetic bottleneck there, which, yeah, that's true.

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But then they misinterpret and twist the curse that is placed upon Canaan, and they place it upon Ham.

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They make Ham the father of the black peoples. And that kind of theology and teaching is, unfortunately, the same thing that was taught, for example, by the fourth president of the

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Southern Baptist Convention in the antebellum

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South. That was the kind of theology that was being presented by those defending slavery.

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And then, of course, it became central to the theology of the

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KKK after the Civil War. And so this is, you know, it's not that Mahler has thought this stuff all up himself.

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It does have a history to it, primarily in the

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American South, as their understanding of that Ham was the ancestor of the blacks and things like this.

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And so in that interview with Chris Rosbaugh, they just sort of wandered around out there and never really got to anything that was, you know, really central to refuting any of that.

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And then I saw that Samuel Say was going to have a discussion with him.

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And I listened to that as well. And again, because it was a discussion and not a debate, there wasn't one particular focus.

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And Mahler is a trained attorney, and so he knows how to obfuscate professionally.

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And so he did that again. Samuel did, however, press him not only on the issues of the

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Genesis 9, but at one point, he just basically asked him, are you saying the

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Holy Spirit cannot sanctify a black person as much as a white person? And he said, yes, that's what

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I'm saying. So a couple of days after that, and that took place in the Bible Dinger's YouTube channel,

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Bible Dinger's contacted me and they said, we really feel, we think

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Samuel did fine, but we really feel that someone with serious debate experience needs to take him on.

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And I'm like, well, I'll be honest with you. I said, what does he want to debate? They said, is racism a sin?

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Because the stone choir viewpoint is racism is demanded by Scripture.

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That to honor your father and mother means to honor your race over against any other race, and that therefore they're against miscegenation.

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They're against a white person being married to a black person. You're betraying your fathers. Of course,

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Mahler has said many times, if you live in America, you should never have to see a black person. No black person is an

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American. And so he's, you know, what this is leading to is very, very plain and obvious and clear.

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But I'm like, yeah, no, I'm not going to wander around again in the weeds of Genesis chapter nine

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So I said, I'll tell you what I'll debate him on. I will debate him on whether the

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Holy Spirit can sanctify a black person as much as a white person, because I did not think there was anybody on earth dumb enough to take that one on.

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And they came back and said, they say, that's fine. We'll do it.

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And so what this allows, I think it's the perfect thesis.

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It's undefeatable. I would say any

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Christian pastor who could not mount an extremely strong defense of the thesis that there is no distinction at all in the renewing work of the

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Holy Spirit of God, that all the elect of God are the recipients of the presence of the

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Holy Spirit, the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives, and that they are being conformed to the image of Christ, and that that is completely within the power of the

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Spirit of God. If you can't defend that, you probably shouldn't be preaching.

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You shouldn't be doing what you're doing. And so what that will allow me to do is to provide such an incredible contrast between the wandering around in the esoteric, obscure stuff about racial genetics and population studies and all this kind of stuff.

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And he only has 15 minutes to make his opening statement. I mean, you can't hardly even establish your parameters in that type of context.

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And what I'm going to be doing, the many, many, many, many clear texts. I mean, there's a whole text

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I'm not even gonna be able to get to. I don't have enough time that are very clear in saying to us,

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God's purpose in election is to create a people who are made in the image of Christ, who build the kingdom of Christ, and that there is no distinction between them and male, female, bond -free,

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Jew, Gentile, Scythian, barbarian. Christ is all and in all.

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And this renewing work of the Spirit is present in all of them. And that there is not a scintilla of evidence whatsoever that the reading of Genesis 9 and 10 that Mahler demands is even present in the mind of any apostle of the

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Lord Jesus Christ. It's just not there. It just isn't there. So they agree.

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And I'm like, well, I think the most important thing we can do is to demonstrate to everybody that the

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Stone Choir cult has no concept of what the gospel is. This will expose their utter white supremacy and hopefully be a resource to people in the future to be able to counsel young men that you all of a sudden discover are getting ready to leave the church and they're getting ready to leave the church.

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Well, because they've been listening to the Stone Choir and they've got all these crazy ideas in their head.

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So the answer to your question and the objection is these people already have an audience.

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Everybody's already carrying a cell phone in their pocket. And so they already have direct access to your young people.

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And so I've had people say, well, if you just ignore them, they go away. No, they're not. You may be ignorant of what's going on.

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You may be ignorant of this movement. You may be ignorant of how many relationships have been disrupted and promising young men that the elders were working with to raise them up toward leadership have gone off into wild and crazy stuff.

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You may be ignorant of all that. OK, fine. Some of the rest of us are not ignorant of that.

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And so when the opportunity avails itself and is made available, especially with a thesis this clear and this compelling, why in the world would you not do that?

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Now, I can understand, you know, there was a professor at Biola University back in 2006 who did not know who

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I was, had never seen any of my debates. You know, it's possible he had tried to watch some of the

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Roman Catholic debates, but he couldn't get past that weird guy that introduced all of them. So folks, he's referring to me as the weird guy.

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What people didn't already get that. Chris, Chris, let me let me

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Chris, let me explain. When you have to explain the joke, you ruin the joke. I heard that from some guy once.

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I can't remember who it was, but I think that was also me. Yeah, you've forgotten everything you taught me.

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But that's that's sad. But you are considerably older than I am. What, 11 months, something like that. That's when you used a donkey in a joke about Democrats completely killed the joke.

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Yes, I did. I did. There's no two ways about it. I just couldn't get myself to to say those bad, bad words anyway.

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But this this whole situation is going to give us just such a clear opportunity to expose this movement.

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And so when when people get all upset, it's like, look, folks, you need to know they're already there.

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They're already known by the young people in your church. Maybe not.

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Maybe you've been really blessed by God, but they're all over the place and there needs to be a response and we're going to have the opportunity of doing so.

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And so I just pray that everyone will pray that the truth will be clearly proclaimed on Thursday evening.

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Again, I expect Mahler to be calm and cool as a cucumber.

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He's devoid of emotion. He's robotic. He is somewhat robotic. Yeah, he's not he is not interesting to listen to at all on that level.

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He just there is no passion there at all. But I'm going to have to make sure to be very self -controlled.

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Not my first debate. And so, yeah. Oh, I'm sorry.

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I'm sorry. I just realized I was going to tell you that this professor came up to me at Biola.

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And when I first debated Shabir Ali, he had tried to stop that debate from happening.

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Wow. Because he didn't know who I was and he knew that Shabir Ali was very good.

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And he had seen what had happened in the past. And so he tried to stop that debate. Thankfully, he didn't stop that debate and was in attendance and was thrilled at how it actually went.

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And I ended up working with him and his group for a number of years. They helped me to learn Arabic and wow.

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And things like that. But the point is, you know, I understand, you know, he he's concerned that he's going to have to do all the repair if this thing goes south.

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OK, I get it. I wouldn't want somebody who didn't know where Corey Muller was coming from or who couldn't read

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Greek and Hebrew and didn't know church history and had no experience doing this. Yeah, it would not be good for you to debate

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Corey Muller. I get that. But this will be like debate number one hundred and ninety seven,

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I think. Wow. And so, yeah, I think that we should be able to make a very, very clear statement.

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This coming Thursday, another sign of how old we are, because I think you were in single digits when

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I started arranging debates with you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

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When you called me that day and I was wondering where you got the number. Yeah. Yeah, I think it was single digits because it had been, you know, three or four.

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I was getting toward ten maybe by that point in time. But yeah, they didn't really start stacking up until we started doing

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Long Island stuff. And of course, there are a number of those trips. We did more than one debate. Oh, yeah. Where we did the

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Hamza Abdul Malik debate. The same year as we did an early Catholic debate and stuff like that.

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So, yeah, they started rolling at that point and they've been they sort of slowed down in 2020, obviously, but they're they're picking back up now.

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We'll get there. Maybe we'll find out. Well, we have to go to our first commercial break. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Dr.

31:54

White, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com. Give us your first name, at least city and state of residence and country of residence.

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I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession. We embrace congregational church government and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our triune

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We're back with our discussion with Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, and we are giving you a preview of his upcoming debate scheduled for two days from now,

37:38

May 15th, with avowed white supremacist and excommunicated Lutheran Corey Mahler, who runs a podcast called

37:48

The Stones Will Cry Out. And, or actually, I'm sorry, that's where he gets that name, the

37:56

Stone Choir. He tries to give it a biblical facade by alluding to that passage in Luke 19, 39 and 40, where we read, and yet some of the

38:12

Pharisees in the crowd said to him, meaning Jesus' teacher, rebuker disciples, and Jesus replied,

38:19

I tell you, if these stop speaking, the stones will cry out, and that's where he gets the

38:25

Stone Choir name from, trying to legitimize his organization biblically, which is a miserable failure as far as I'm concerned.

38:38

But the theme of this debate that Dr. White and Corey Mahler will be having is, can a black person be sanctified as much as a white person, or can the

38:51

Holy Spirit sanctify a black person as much as a white person? And now, Dr.

38:57

White, how will the listeners of this interview that we are conducting right now, how will we be able to watch this debate?

39:11

Dr. White, are you there? For some reason, we don't have

39:18

Dr. White. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Sorry, sorry. I always remember to mute the mic during the commercials, because I had a bad cough or something like that, and you just about disowned me.

39:32

So, I make sure to mute it now, and unfortunately, it was under about three different windows to get to it.

39:38

By the way, I muted on my end now, so you don't have to worry about that. Oh, okay.

39:43

Well, that was multitasking for you. Everybody who knows you knows you better, you know, leave it as simple as possible on the technological level for this.

39:56

Anyway, uh, what were we saying? Yes, the link is already live on YouTube, so if you put

40:02

James White, Corey Mahler into the search bar at YouTube, it will come up, and it'll say, you know, 48 hours from now, or probably a little bit more than that right now.

40:14

And that's how you can watch it live. And Rich and I have been talking about, we sort of expect it probably to be the most watched live debate that I've done.

40:26

Yeah, I think so. I really think there's that much interest in it. We may have had more people watching a live debate like at Biola or something like that, but I don't think so.

40:40

I have a feeling there will be many, many thousands of people tuning in and watching it live because they have their audience, and then there's all the people who understand how important this topic is and how it needs to be dealt with.

40:58

So, yeah, five o 'clock my time, eight o 'clock your time, Eastern Daylight Time.

41:05

I have to explain that to people because the only people who understand the difference between Standard Time and Daylight Time are people who live in Arizona, where we don't do any of that.

41:15

It's just so frustrating that we're the only ones that understand the difference. But it will be eight o 'clock

41:22

Eastern Time, and five o 'clock Pacific Time is when the debate will be taking place.

41:27

It's only about two hours long, 15 -minute opening statements, 15 -minute rebuttals, two 10 -minute periods for each of us, that's 40 minutes, cross -examination,

41:39

I think the closing statements were 10, if I recall correctly, and then some level, some space for audience questions.

41:53

I'll be honest with you, in almost 200 debates now, audience questions are helpful about 15 % of the time, and sort of neutral about 15 % of the time, and deleterious to the debate, 70 % of them.

42:15

So, we'll see. Are you going to have handwritten questions rather than people having the opportunity to give speeches?

42:23

Oh, remember, this isn't—I don't even know where he lives, this is all on YouTube, so I'm not going to be in his presence, he's not going to be in mine.

42:32

This is going to be done online. So, the questions would be being asked,

42:39

I assume, in the comments section on YouTube, which in and of itself will be the biggest, craziest pile of chaos that's ever been seen.

42:52

But I'm leaving that up to the Bible Dingers guys, they're the guys that are moderating and hosting the program, and if they can figure out how to monitor questions, record questions, do something, great.

43:09

I'm not sure exactly how it's going to work out on that end. As long as it's somewhat fair,

43:15

I hope, we'll see. But hopefully it's not an extended period of time, because like I said,

43:21

I rarely find them to be overly helpful. And we know that Corey Mahler, as we've already said in the announcements, is an excommunicated

43:33

Lutheran, he's also an attorney. It's amazing to even think about what kind of clients he has.

43:40

But, oh, that's an interesting painting on your wall of a Klansman, just out of curiosity, why do you have that?

43:49

And by the way— Wait a minute, isn't that Adolf Hitler? He was the last

43:55

Christian prince. Did you know we were on the wrong side of the last war? He said all these things, but that's all available if you go to http://comments .coreymahler

44:10

.com. Just start reading to your heart's desire and have lots of populism already.

44:15

Right. But was Mahler, before his excommunication, or even now, an ordained minister of any kind?

44:28

Or is he even conducting, as an excommunicated Lutheran, is he conducting worship services on his own as an independent person?

44:37

Just out of curiosity, where is he on that level? Good question.

44:43

He certainly claims to be a Lutheran. He continues to consider the

44:49

Book of Concord and the Lutheran Confessions as authoritative. I have not heard,

44:57

I cannot imagine that he is in a

45:03

Lutheran church with any regularity, because they would certainly—the one denomination he's really well known amongst is the

45:12

Lutherans. They know who he is. But it's possible he may have moved out of that particular jurisdiction, and he could be using a different name.

45:26

I have no earthly idea. But even before his excommunication, was he an ordained minister?

45:32

No, no. No, he was not. And I wanted to put at least one

45:42

Lutheran at ease who was fearful, a Missouri Synod Lutheran was fearful that you might try to imply in your debate that this kind of hate and bigotry was typical of Lutherans, and I was assuring him that you would not—not only do you not believe that, but you would obviously therefore not insinuate or imply that.

46:08

No, of course not. In fact, some people said that I am showing dishonor to the excommunication by having anything to do with him, but I'm certainly not.

46:18

If I were platforming him in the sense of, hey, listen to what this guy has to say, and don't worry about that excommunication thing, okay, then fine.

46:27

But I'm actually honoring the excommunication by identifying him as a cult leader. I call it the

46:33

Stone Choir cult, for crying out loud. And the video of the actual announcement of the excommunication at the

46:43

Lutheran church he was a part of is available online. I've seen it multiple times. People have posted it a number of times on X, and no,

46:52

I think they did the exact right thing. I think the specific language of the accusation was general hatred of mankind, which is,

47:00

I think, a fairly accurate way of putting it when you start reading through his stuff.

47:07

And of course this isn't—you know, I pointed out that Chris Rosbaugh is Lutheran, and I was talking with the pastor down at First Lutheran in Houston about this, and no, not in any way, shape, or form.

47:23

Now, what is amazing is that Stone Choir will frequently promote, and their people will promote,

47:33

Luther's book on the Jews and their lies from later in his life, which is a horrible screed, very, very much, very, very different from the book that he had written prior to 1525,

47:46

Jesus was a Jew, which in itself was more dangerous for him, for Luther, to write then than the

47:53

Jews and their lies. Because one of the sort of sad realities of Luther's life is that his greatest nemesis and enemy his entire life was named

48:08

Johann Eck. As early as 1518, Eck had recognized that Luther was a real danger to the

48:17

Roman Church and had been really trying to get him killed, basically, for a long time.

48:25

But Eck also wrote the longest, most disgusting anti -Jewish screed of that century.

48:36

And around the same time, Luther wrote his own later on in life, the post -1525

48:44

Luther. If anybody's interested in this, I spoke on Reformation Day, October 31, 2017, in Washington, D .C.

48:52

I gave a presentation on the two Luthers, and I focused on the big differences between Luther before 1525—that's when the

49:03

Peasants' Revolt took place—and the Luther after 1525. And the Luther before 1525 wanted to see the

49:11

Jews evangelize, and the Luther after 1525, especially really toward the end of his life, where the last few sermons that he taught in Erfurt, which is where he had been born but never really lived—strange, he was born and died in the same city but never really lived there—but the last sermons he preached there in Erfurt, and it's pretty obvious he had already had a heart attack and was on his last legs, but they were filled with anti -Jewish slurs and anti -Semitic tropes and just the standard nastiness of the day, which the papacy repeated as well and had given the lead in.

49:55

So that's just the way things were in Europe at that particular point in time. So it is amazing to see

50:07

Luther's On the Jews and Their Lives, the cover of that book being reposted on X and citations being made of it and stuff like that.

50:18

And of course, that's the same book that the Nazis took their anti -Jewish cues from and quotes from in regards to Martin Luther as well.

50:26

And so they're popping back up, but they're being promoted by people now rather than being expirated.

50:36

And the anti -Semitism aspect, that's not going to be coming up,

50:42

I'm assuming, in the debate, but. Well, it might.

50:48

I mean, I'm not specifically going to try to, you know, there's so much that if I wanted to do the scattergun thing and not worry about the thesis of the debate and throw out everything that he's said about every strange topic out there, then sure, you could do a lot of stuff like that.

51:06

I'm not going to be able to get to really the majority of the most objectionable stuff about Stone Choir.

51:17

But the thesis allows us to establish one thing, that the Stone Choir doesn't understand the gospel and in fact is perverting the gospel.

51:26

And that should be enough in and of itself to warn anybody off from it.

51:32

But no, I have thought about, you know, am I going to continue this track into the future and be constantly having to listen to all your

51:46

Stone Choir webcasts and all this kind of stuff? I do not want to by any means at all.

51:53

It is incredibly distasteful. It's spiritually abusive, really, in a sense.

52:01

And so maybe I can, you know, do a good job in blunting the force, the movement, and then other folks can come along and take out the rest of the legs of the spider, so to speak.

52:18

But no, I certainly do not want to invest a whole lot. I've got some projects and what

52:25

I think have longer -term importance to them that I want to get back to.

52:31

This has sort of been a distraction from that. But we'll see.

52:37

You know, I don't know. I mean, I do know that there are all sorts of followers of the

52:44

Stone Choir cult out there that are going to be gunning for me, and not necessarily metaphorically, after all this.

52:53

So I'm sure there'll be lots and lots of challenges to, you know, debate this, debate that, etc., etc.,

52:59

from people who've never taught a class in their life, they've never written a book, they have never studied a foreign language, you know, but I've got to somehow stop my life and listen to their 47 webcasts and then do a debate with them.

53:15

I can guarantee you that's going to be coming. Well, we have to go to our midway break right now, and if you have a question, we do have people waiting to have their questions asked and answered, but if you want to get in line, our email address is chrisarenson at gmail .com.

53:29

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church.

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Avino, and thanks for listening. This is

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

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Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast.

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I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions, while always defending the key doctrines of the

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Well, before we return to my discussion with Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries on the upcoming debate on May 5th, to be precise, that he is with Corey Mahler, a vowed white supremacist, anti -Semite, neo -Nazi,

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Hitler admirer, and excommunicated Lutheran on the theme,

01:07:13

Can the Holy Spirit Sanctify Black People as Much as White People? Before we re -enter that preview of that debate,

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Never do that. In other words, never give your own church less money than you normally give your church to bless us financially.

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Go to irontripandzionradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now. And last but not least, if you are not a member of a

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Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church like Apologia Church in Mesa, Arizona, where my guest,

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Dr. James R. White, is one of the pastors, well, no matter where in the world you live, if you're without a church home that fits that description, please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:10:55

and put, I need a church in the subject line. I may be able to help you as I have done with many people all over the world who could not find a biblically faithful church near them, and I helped them out, and some of them have joined those churches after getting the recommendations from me.

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So if you're in that predicament, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put,

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I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

01:11:25

That is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least. City and state and country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Before I go to listener questions, I was just curious, as I am always curious when

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I hear about anybody who is a professing Christian who is an open bigot and has a view that their skin color puts them in a category where they are superior to people of different skin colors.

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I try not to use the term racist because I believe there's only one race, and that is the human race, or you might say that there is the race of God's chosen and the race of the reprobate.

01:12:13

But as far as a person's identity on this earth in regard to their skin color and their ethnicity, none of that matters, as you fully agree, other than your own enjoyment of cultural practices and things that may be unique to your ethnicity.

01:12:35

There's nothing wrong with that. But I always wondered how Mahler and other bigots, those who profess to believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, in Numbers 12, 1, we read,

01:12:53

Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married, for he had married an

01:13:00

Ethiopian woman. And then if you jump down to verse 9, and the anger of the

01:13:07

Lord was kindled against them, and he departed, and the cloud departed from off the tabernacle, and behold,

01:13:14

Miriam became leprous, white as snow. And Aaron looked upon Miriam and said,

01:13:20

Behold, she was leprous. Now, how do people like Mahler, if you know this, get around something as clear as that that demonstrates

01:13:32

God's hatred of that kind of bigotry? Well, that's a challenging question.

01:13:40

First of all, he would say that God created the races, that honoring father and mother is honoring the way

01:13:48

God has made things, and that he would say that your statement, that there is one race, the human race, is biblically and scientifically naive, that there are three races genetically with subdivisions therein.

01:14:08

He would say very strongly, and has said strongly over and over again, skin tone is irrelevant.

01:14:14

Skin tone is only relevant to where your ancestors settled as to exposure to the sun.

01:14:22

It's not amount of melanin. He doesn't have any of this, because I've listened to Black racists,

01:14:28

Black supremacists, who literally believe that melanin is almost a divine substance, that it has special powers to it.

01:14:38

So you get weird people on the extremes of everything. And he would say that I don't care about skin color.

01:14:45

What I care about is genetics. What I care about is the alleles and the genetic code. And what

01:14:50

I care about are population genetics, population crime studies, etc., etc.,

01:14:56

etc. And his whole argument is that when in Genesis chapter 9,

01:15:08

Moses said, Cursed be Canaan, a servant of servants, he shall be to his brothers.

01:15:16

And he said, Blessed be Yahweh, the God of Shem, and let Canaan be his servant. May God enlarge

01:15:22

Japheth, and let him dwell in the tents of Shem, and let Canaan be his servant. And so this is the cursing of Canaan, not the cursing of Ham.

01:15:34

But it has been very common down through history for people to transfer the curse of Canaan to his father

01:15:45

Ham, because who had done the evil? Ham had, not Canaan. And so there have been early church writers, for example, who would use the two phrases interchangeably.

01:16:00

But the idea is, certainly in the Antebellum South, and pretty much in Antebellum United States in the 19th century, pretty much everyone did believe that Ham was the father of all black people and that Ham was cursed here in Genesis 9 to be a servant of servants.

01:16:20

And this was the primary text that was used to defend chattel slavery in the

01:16:27

United States, in the United Kingdom, in all the places where it was prevalent for so long.

01:16:34

And that's Mahler's thing as well. So as to the situation with Miriam, that's actually a challenging text as to exactly what it's referring to, what

01:16:48

Ethiopian means. There's a book that I'll be holding up anyways, probably during the debate, called

01:16:57

The Curse of Ham. And of course, there is no Curse of Ham, but it's been so prevalently used in that terminology that it's a lengthy book on the history of the understanding of Genesis 9 and the text that you're referring to is covered in that as well.

01:17:22

And the question really is, is it possible that Miriam is referring to the one wife of Moses that we already know about?

01:17:37

And there is real confusion as to exactly what Cushite and Ethiopian refers to when it comes to skin tone or origination.

01:17:52

There's a lot of poetic license used in the Old Testament. And of course, they didn't look at geography the way that we do.

01:18:03

And for periods of time in the history of the Bible, the writers of the Bible viewed

01:18:09

Ethiopia as the ends of the earth, that there wasn't anything beyond it. Well, there was, but they didn't know that.

01:18:16

And so, poetically, they would use that as to the four corners or farthest reach of the earth and things like that.

01:18:25

So, that might be what is being referred to there.

01:18:31

It's possible that the text is referring to that. There's also questions about whether the best translation there is leprosy or if it's another kind of skin disease that was similar but had different ramifications to it.

01:18:50

It's tough. And I would imagine he'd probably focus upon a number of those issues in response to that.

01:18:58

But the big thing, honestly, again, and he has said this, the big thing for Corey Mahler and the

01:19:05

Stone Choir is that there are two great prophecies that everything hangs on—the protevangelium in Genesis 3 and the cursing of Canaan in Genesis 9, 25 -27, which then gives the foundation for what happens at the

01:19:24

Tower of Babel, where the sons of Noah are supposed to spread out across the earth, but they're refusing to do so.

01:19:33

And so, some people have said, well, the various ethnicities, language groups, stuff like that was a curse of God for what they did at the

01:19:42

Tower of Babel. Mahler says, no, it wasn't a curse of God. It was simply the means that God used to make everybody do what he told them to do in the first place.

01:19:50

That was spread out across the face of the earth. So, this is why I say that a lot of the people who were objecting that you mentioned at the beginning of the program, you know, why would you give this guy any air?

01:20:03

I've said to a few of the people when we first announced it, I got a bunch of people writing back, I just can't believe you're doing this, it's so stupid, you're so dumb.

01:20:11

And I would just throw a couple of these Mahlerite positions out at them. They had no idea how to respond to it.

01:20:18

They never even thought about it. And I'm like, this is the point. If these people are in your church, how are you going to respond to them if you don't have a clue as to what in the world they're saying?

01:20:29

In fact, that's the best way to get them into the group, is to give answers that actually have nothing to do with the positions being espoused to begin with.

01:20:38

So, Mahler would just go, well, first of all, you're simply believing the post -war consensus that racism is bad, and it's actually created by God, and B, it has nothing to do with skin color.

01:20:55

It doesn't matter what the color is. It's what your ancestry is. It's who your people are. That's why he talked over and over and over and over again.

01:21:05

He's strongly anti -misogynistic. So, if you marry a woman of a different race, you have ended your connection with your people.

01:21:18

Because he'll use the illustration, if you're a white man, you marry a black woman, and you have a child, and any random white guy walks by you on the street, you are more closely connected to the random white guy genetically than to your own child, because you have cut off your connection to your race by doing what you did.

01:21:44

That's his thing. You can see why it's very attractive right now. Young white guys that are demonized for everything, just simply for being straight, white, not homosexual, not transgender, or whatever else, you're blamed for everything.

01:22:03

You're toxic masculinity, and all the rest is garbage. So, if you're going, hey, look,

01:22:09

I didn't do anything to deserve all this. And someone comes along and says, ah, and there's a reason for this, and we have the solution here.

01:22:18

You can see why it has an attraction to young guys that are not rooted and grounded in the faith.

01:22:28

And look, how many of our churches even try to root young people in the faith in this area?

01:22:36

We don't even think about it. I mean, for a while, we thought it was all done and gone and done with anyways, and here it's come back, and we have to deal with it again.

01:22:47

Now, why wouldn't the story in Numbers about Moses and his

01:22:55

Ethiopian wife and his sister's anger over that, and God's anger over Miriam's disgust over the mixed marriage, why wouldn't that still be—meaning

01:23:14

Moses is marrying an Ethiopian—why wouldn't that still be in the framework of prohibitions that Mahler believes exist to marrying outside of your parents' people, as it were?

01:23:30

Well, the problem is, the question is, are we properly understanding what

01:23:35

Ethiopian means? Is the text actually communicating that this is a woman of a different race from Mahler's perspective, or is it not?

01:23:45

And that's actually up in there. It is very difficult to know, given the ambiguities of Ethiopian Cushite and the fact that those terms are used poetically in the

01:24:01

Old Testament in a number of different ways, and not necessarily in—again, they didn't have a globe, they didn't have a map like we have, they didn't have a

01:24:10

GPS and everything else, and so geographical boundaries are less specific when you live in the ancient world.

01:24:21

And so it's possible that Miriam's comments were actually simply a question of Moses's authority.

01:24:30

I don't know, I've never listened to Mahler specifically talking about that, maybe he does say it that way,

01:24:36

I don't know. But I'm just simply saying that the stuff that I've been reading that goes into all this stuff in excruciating detail about what the land of Cush is, what is

01:24:50

Ethiopia, why are they the same thing, why are they different things, why are they distinguished? It's a lot of material, and that's one of the topics that they go into, is they basically say it's not the slam -dunk that people think it is either direction.

01:25:07

And so I doubt that will come up, but it might. We'll see. Okay, let me go to some listener questions, and I've got to already, as I'm looking at them, enlarge the font size because they're microscopic.

01:25:25

And while I'm doing that, I will repeat our email address, chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:25:32

And if you send in a question, you might want to have mercy on me and have it pre -enlarged.

01:25:40

Okay, Dr. White, would it be accurate to say, oh, this is, I forgot to mention,

01:25:46

Anthony in Hoshton, Georgia. Dr.

01:25:51

White, would it be accurate to say that this man, meaning

01:25:56

Cory Muller, is to Lutherans what Westboro Baptist Church is to Sovereign Grace Churches?

01:26:03

He offers such a distortion of truth that he had indeed slipped into a cult -like group that is outside the camp.

01:26:13

He might be so much further from any mainstream thought that he needs to be fully exposed as a danger to believers.

01:26:21

Thank you for your kingdom labors. Obviously, that last part seems to be a confirmation of it being a completely justified move on your part to debate him.

01:26:33

But there isn't, I mean, there really isn't much of a question here, but do you want to respond to...

01:26:39

I don't claim to be an expert on Westboro Baptist, but I did run into them in, what was that, early 2000s,

01:26:54

I think, outside the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City. And it was a brief exchange because they very quickly closed ranks, started yelling and screaming at me and stuff like that.

01:27:06

But they're just simply nuts.

01:27:12

Okay, I mean, that's cultic on the pretty easy -to -recognize level. And the guy who started them off, you know, his kids have come out and talked about how whacked he was and things like that.

01:27:27

What makes Muller a little bit different is he, at least publicly, doesn't do that.

01:27:35

Some stuff was published, actually was dropped on the web about 10 days ago now.

01:27:43

Some messages were leaked from a private server that the second guy,

01:27:51

Trouble Woe is the term he uses, but last name is Dump Earth. It was stuff that he had posted, and it had lots of F -bombs in it.

01:28:04

There's a vast contrast between what was there and what he presents himself as on the program.

01:28:14

And of course, some of their defenders go, oh, it was three years ago, and everybody gets a chance to repent. There's no evidence that he ever did repent.

01:28:22

That's just simply, you know, people are one thing in private, and they're different in public. At least the

01:28:28

Westboro Baptist guys were pretty much the same thing in both. Just disgusting.

01:28:35

So there is a bit of a difference at that point. Oh, and they were not, or either both were not and are not, uh, racists.

01:28:48

In fact, it may surprise people that the founder of Westboro Baptist Church, Fred Phelps, was a civil rights attorney in the 50s and 60s and defended football legend

01:29:08

Gale Sayers when he was arrested for being a part of a protest on the campus of a university, and I can't remember which university it was.

01:29:21

But wouldn't you say that the main problem with Westboro Baptist Church is that although biblical

01:29:29

Christians agree with them that homosexuality is a damnable practice,

01:29:37

Westboro Baptist Church congregants delight in the

01:29:44

Lord's condemnation and damnation of these people and don't believe they have any hope of redemption as being reprobate.

01:29:58

They don't believe that evangelism will ever do anything to bring them to repentance.

01:30:04

So there's a huge difference there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there was.

01:30:11

I remember encountering him, like I said, outside the temple, and as soon as I said anything about appropriate language and witnessing, they immediately lost it and got between me and him and started yelling at me and stuff like that.

01:30:28

It was pretty cultic, no two ways about it. It was a very strange situation. So anyway, yeah, go on.

01:30:35

Wound up being excommunicated by his own family before he died, Phelps was, because he was getting too nice or something.

01:30:44

Very, very strange. Thank you, Anthony. Keep listening to Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio. And we have

01:30:50

Joey in New Rochelle, New York. In light of your thought that it would be best to put this heresy to rest in one debate and not need to revisit it, why not make the debate three hours and deal with some of the genetic and other foundational arguments that they tend to use, and he may well bring up in the debate anyway.

01:31:15

Alternatively, maybe not allow questions if it is limited to two hours, just a thought.

01:31:23

Well, given the topic, given the thesis,

01:31:30

I cannot imagine that after the first cross -examination section there will be almost anything left to do, because I do not believe

01:31:43

Mahler is capable of providing a counter -exegesis of the text that I present. The only direction he can possibly go, and again, he's not debated this before, so I'm having to guess on this, but the only direction he could possibly go is to assert that his understanding of the

01:32:05

Table of Nations and Genesis 9, 25 -27, that particular Noahic blessing or cursing, that that is the key hermeneutical lens of the entire

01:32:20

New Testament. And the fact of the matter is, it's not.

01:32:25

It just doesn't appear in the New Testament. So he's going to have to assume that it was a given as the key hermeneutical thing, and therefore interpret everything else in the

01:32:37

New Testament, the many, many texts that speak of the Spirit of God renewing, sanctifying, without the slightest distinction between any of the races, as he would say, ethnic groups, the result of the work of the

01:32:56

Spirit being a kingdom made up of men and women from every tribe, young people, and nation. So the only thing he can do is to say, well, we see that Genesis 9, 25 -27 explains what we see in genetics, what we see in populations today, so on and so forth.

01:33:21

And of course, he gets to pick and choose whatever of those types of things he wants. He'll talk about how violent

01:33:27

Blacks are. Well, you know what? When you get rid of families in any community, things can be really, really bad, and they are really, really bad in the

01:33:36

Black community in the United States. But as Samuel says, it's been proven for a long time, that's due to fatherlessness, not due to hail.

01:33:45

And whenever that happens in a people group, you have the same kind of breakdown of the family and breakdown of behavior and all the rest of that kind of stuff.

01:33:54

But I would assume that the argumentation is going to be, we see this, and it's all because of the fulfillment of the curse of Ham.

01:34:03

But it wasn't the curse of Ham, it was the curse of Canaan. So I'm going to be challenging him to demonstrate that that is the interpretational methodology of the

01:34:14

New Testament writers. And of course, there's nothing he can come up with. There's nothing there.

01:34:20

I know when the idea of Ham as the father of the Blacks connected to slavery first appeared in history.

01:34:29

We'll find out if he does. I'm not going to talk about it now, sorry. That would be silly, because he may have people listening, for all

01:34:37

I know. He certainly has lots of people that he could ask to do so. So if that's the only way to go,

01:34:46

I would assume after I walk through the first cross -examination, challenging whatever it is he's said, where else can we go?

01:34:57

If we start talking about other things, then we're back to an abandonment of a formal debate thesis, and we're running back into the weeds of, you pick your stuff,

01:35:10

I'll pick my stuff, and we'll run around getting nothing accomplished, which is what's happened in the past.

01:35:17

So there's just really no reason to Church of Christ this thing.

01:35:23

What I mean by that is Church of Christ guys love to do four -day debates on one verse, Acts 2 .38.

01:35:30

And if you can't do it in two hours, if you cannot do this topic in two hours, given what the

01:35:40

New Testament teaches about the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, doing it in four hours is only going to make things worse.

01:35:47

So, yeah, no. Well, I usually don't give the full name of a listener, but since this is a dear brother who's a pastor, and who is also a lover and a proclaimer of the doctrines of sovereign grace,

01:36:05

I figured I'd give his full name and plug him—Pastor Claude Ramsey of Reformation Baptist Church in Knoxville, Tennessee, and also host of the

01:36:16

Here I Stand Theology Podcast. He just really has a comment, just a quick word to both yourself and Dr.

01:36:24

White. We should give flowers to the living. So I want to say thank you to the both of you for your faithfulness of the gospel and the

01:36:35

Lord and his church. Thank you very much, Pastor Claude. Love you, brother, and look forward to having you back on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:36:44

And I strongly urge anybody who lives in Knoxville, Tennessee, or is traveling through there, or has family, friends, and loved ones in that area, you can find out more information about Reformata Baptist Church of Knoxville on Facebook.

01:37:06

They don't have a website outside of that, but it's Reformata with a

01:37:11

T at the end. Reformata Baptist Church of Knoxville. He's also the host, as I said, of the

01:37:17

Here I Stand Theology Podcast. And by the way, we don't know the date yet, but Dr.

01:37:23

White and I have both agreed to be guests on Pastor Claude's podcast to discuss the importance of Christian friendships, and we'll keep you updated when we know when that date will be.

01:37:36

But thanks again, Pastor Claude. We love you, brother. And one of the things that I have told people is that bigotry, the kind of bigotry that we see emanating from Corey Mahler is a very strong sign that a person is not regenerate.

01:38:05

Now, I know that a person may have, out of naivete, certain views that would especially in our day and age in the 21st century be considered bigoted.

01:38:22

They're not really rooted in that. There are people that are concerned, especially in decades gone by, who were very concerned about if the children of those in so -called interracial marriages would be persecuted, and they saw that as a reason to not be overly ecstatic about two people of different skin colors marrying, and it didn't really have a root in superiority or hatred.

01:38:58

But when it comes to somebody like Mahler, could you ever offer any hope and comfort for someone that echoes that same kind of garbage, that they are saved and only need to change the way of thinking?

01:39:18

I mean, this is an instance where people just need to repent of damning beliefs, isn't it?

01:39:26

Well, yeah, I identify him very much. In fact, the first defense that I offered of doing the debate, because that following—it came out on a

01:39:41

Sunday night—that following Monday, there were just all sorts of people just going crazy about the debate.

01:39:48

You shouldn't debate someone like this. I said, look, in 1834, a book came out called

01:39:58

Mormonism Unveiled by E .D. Howe. It was the first anti -Mormon book, the first book written exposing the

01:40:09

Mormon movement. Now, in 1834, Smith wasn't nearly as wild and crazy as he was going to become.

01:40:15

He hadn't started polygamy yet. He wasn't a polytheist yet. He was just getting started.

01:40:25

But how wonderfully useful would it have been for E .D.

01:40:34

Howe to have had the opportunity to have debated Joseph Smith? Because the early

01:40:39

Mormons were big into doing public debates. Not anymore, but they were back then.

01:40:47

Who knows? It might have ended the Mormon movement. It might have destroyed his claims to prophethood, but it never happened.

01:40:59

It didn't take place. We have the beginnings of a cult here. We have a cult leader, and he's twisting the

01:41:08

Word of God. He's twisting the Scriptures. He's doing what Scripture says. These people are sneaking into churches.

01:41:14

They're trying to get disciples, pull disciples away after them, just like Acts 20 says they will.

01:41:22

And this is where we are. So the idea of, well, let's just not worry about it, or let's not engage these people, what might have been in the past.

01:41:35

I don't want to be one of those people saying, yeah, I had a chance before this thing became as big as it is now, but hey, that chance is past.

01:41:44

And so again, if this was a topic that could not be completely focused upon the gospel errors that are a part of what

01:41:58

Mahler is talking about, because remember, Mahler will defend seven -day creationism and the

01:42:04

Trinity, and he'll say all sorts of really, really good stuff.

01:42:11

That's how cult leaders work. That's why so many people in the church are not prepared to deal with this kind of stuff, is because we do the head -in -the -sand type thing, and they'll eventually go away, and maybe they'll only snipe a few people out of our flock type of a situation, and we just can't go there.

01:42:34

Well, we have to go to our final break. Once again, if you'd like to ask a question of your own to Dr.

01:42:42

White, submit it to chrisorensen at gmail .com, chrisorensen at gmail .com, and as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

01:42:53

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Buttafuoco, attorney at law, is one of the sponsors of this program, and if you have been the victim of a very serious personal injury or medical malpractice anywhere in the

01:48:40

United States, give Dan a call at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, or visit his website, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com.

01:48:49

Make sure you tell Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, that you heard about his law firm,

01:48:54

Buttafuoco & Associates, from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I just want to quickly remind every man in ministry leadership, you are invited to the next free

01:49:05

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor's Luncheon on Thursday, September 18th at 11 a .m.

01:49:11

at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. Dr. James R. White is my keynote speaker once again, and everything is free.

01:49:21

The admission, your lunch, hearing Dr. White, and everyone who attends will receive a sack of free brand new books personally selected by me and donated by Christian publishers all over the

01:49:34

United States and the United Kingdom. If you want to register for that, if you're a man in ministry leadership, send me an email to chrisarnzen at gmail .com

01:49:41

and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. And an event not long after that, that is open for everyone, men, women, and children, is

01:49:54

Dr. White's speaking engagement at my congregation, where I'm a member, Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

01:50:03

That will be Sunday, September 21st at 1 30 p .m. And Dr.

01:50:09

White will be speaking on Can We Trust the Bible is the

01:50:15

Authentic Inerrant Word of God. And if you want more details on Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, go to trbccarlisle .org.

01:50:31

We hope to see as many of you as possible

01:50:39

Sunday, September 21st at 1 30 p .m. to hear Dr. White. And Dr.

01:50:46

White, uh, the sin of racism— Hey, Chris, a quick question.

01:50:53

Do you think Daniel Bottafuoco would take a case from about like 30 years ago where someone, you know, you fly in and they stick you up in like a drug hotel?

01:51:09

And you get PTSD. And I know it's 30 years ago, but man, people, you think he'd take that case?

01:51:16

Again, he's talking about me, folks. Yes, the prestigious name of that horrible motel is the

01:51:29

Ambassador Motel in Baldwin, Long Island. Is it still there?

01:51:35

I think it may be. Um, but, uh, I remember coming to get you for dinner before the debate and the look on your face when you opened that door.

01:51:47

Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. That was, that was an interesting evening. No twist about it. I'm not sure

01:51:53

I slept any, but it was an interesting evening. Yeah. That was the very first debate with Jerry Menendix, who was, at that time, was the darling of Catholic Answers.

01:52:02

Uh, yes, yes. How, how times have changed. Yes, they have. Well, uh, the sin of racism has become such a part of, uh, the dialogue in the media because of the false accusations of racism and bigotry constantly hurled by the left against anyone who is a conservative in any way, shape or form.

01:52:35

And, uh, especially if you are a conservative evangelical Christian with biblical, uh, morals, uh, you are constantly being called a racist.

01:52:49

And the, the, the laughable thing is, uh, you'll be called a white supremacist, even if you're black and happen to be a conservative evangelical.

01:52:59

Uh, and, uh, it's funny how even even to this day, uh, over and over and over again, they bring up the

01:53:13

Proud Boys as a white supremacist terrorist group. And the former chairman of the white, of the

01:53:21

Proud Boys was a black Hispanic of Cuban ancestry. So, I mean, these people are out of their minds, but do you think that this debate that you're doing with Corey Muller might, uh, be helpful to redirect people to what bigotry and hatred really is in this realm?

01:53:44

Well, no, because the topic is theological, the topic is

01:53:49

New Testament, so people outside the faith, they're not really gonna, they're, if anything, they're gonna go, well,

01:53:57

I couldn't tell a difference between the two of those thrown Bible verses around type of a situation.

01:54:02

So, look, the, the left's reignition of the subject of racism, um, is what has allowed this stuff to, to reignite.

01:54:17

And what I mean by that is, if everything's racism, then nothing's racist. So if, if everything's racism, then these guys have all of a sudden felt the freedom to go, well, then if I'm gonna be called a racist,

01:54:32

I might as well be one. Uh, let's, let's go ahead and, because you've, you've got this on all sides.

01:54:38

Um, uh, there is horrific anti -black racism in China. Many Asians view themselves as superior to all other peoples, including whites, and, uh, there are, it's astonishing how many black supremacists there are.

01:54:55

Like I said earlier, I was, I was watching a video once. It's not like I seek this stuff out. I just stumbled across it at times.

01:55:01

People send me things. And literally, this guy was describing, uh, melanin as a divine fluid, as a divine chemical, as a, it, it, it's what makes man what man should be, and, and, and all the rest of this kind of stuff.

01:55:18

And, and so there's, there's insanity everywhere. There are people looking for reasons to not believe and to not submit to God's truth and to, uh, do things to make themselves feel good.

01:55:29

And, and it doesn't matter what your ancestry is. That's just everywhere. Um, and so, yeah, we, we live in a, in a day where, what's the only answer to all this?

01:55:39

Well, one of the things that I'm going to say in the debate, I'm sure, is how in the world could Corey Mahler ever take the

01:55:47

Lord's Supper in a mixed -race church if he doesn't believe the

01:55:52

Holy Spirit has the ability to sanctify a black person as much as a white person?

01:55:59

I mean, if, if he's, it, here's, here's a quote from Mahler, whites should not be forced to live around blacks.

01:56:08

Our lands should be free from such problems. Okay. Then if you're in a church that has black members, how in the world can you set that aside?

01:56:19

You, you think blacks should be kicked out of the country. You, you say that a man's, a black, a white man's duty is to protect his wife and children from black men.

01:56:27

Um, do you, how do you set that aside at the Lord's table? You can't, it's not possible.

01:56:34

So that, that's going to be, you know, my opening statement is pretty, pretty straightforward. Um, this is what the

01:56:39

New Testament authors taught about the unity of the body, uh, the basis of that unity.

01:56:45

And you know what? It's no different than what I was saying in 2018 when the whole woke movement started, uh, because no one's ever refuted it and they can't, uh, and he can't either.

01:56:57

So that's, um, that's what's coming up pretty much, uh, 50 hours from right now.

01:57:04

And what time will this be held on May 5th? Uh, 8

01:57:10

PM, uh, Eastern and, uh, that's 5 PM Pacific.

01:57:17

And, uh, right now, Arizona's in the Pacific zone. So, uh, we just keep bouncing around from one pillar to post, but yeah, 5 o 'clock, uh, uh,

01:57:29

Pacific, 8 o 'clock Eastern. Well, I might as well, since there's no doubt a lot of debate lovers listening, uh, give a plug to two debates that are going to be here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

01:57:40

Uh, the first one is going to be Thursday and Friday. Both of these are two day debates,

01:57:47

July 10th and 11th on the Ordination of Women. And that, uh, is going to be between, uh,

01:57:56

Jeremiah Nortier, a Reformed Baptist from Jonesboro, Arkansas, and Jared K.

01:58:04

Henry, a Nazarene from Mackay, Indiana. The second debate will be Thursday and Friday, July 24th and 25th on Can Christians Be Totally Free from Known Sin in This Life?

01:58:16

Also between Jeremiah Nortier and Jared K. Henry. So I hope that you mark your calendars for those, uh, dates, and we'll no doubt be repeating those dates in the future.

01:58:30

But I heard that Jeremiah guy. And, uh, once again, uh,

01:58:35

Dr. White is, uh, joking because he knows him very well and has debated with him very recently.

01:58:41

Not again, not against him, but on the same side. We're both on the same side. Right. Yes. Uh, do you have any, uh, final words in about a minute that you'd like to provide for our listeners?

01:58:52

Well, I wish we didn't have to debate things like this, but, uh, we live in a day where the enemy has means of getting into our fellowships that he's never had before.

01:59:04

And so we, we can't just stick our heads in the sand and forget about that and think that that's not a, not a danger for us.

01:59:11

I, I do understand why people, you know, have a hesitation for giving a platform, uh, if someone doesn't have a platform, but if they've already got it and they're already doing the damage, then

01:59:22

I, I think that needs to be taken into consideration. And I just hope folks will, will pray for clarity of expression and thought and, uh, self -control.

01:59:35

Um, I'm sure some things can be said that are pretty amazing, but, um, you know, as with all my debates,

01:59:42

I just hope that it'll have a usefulness long after I'm moldering in the grave.

01:59:48

Well, I thank you again for being on the program, Dr. White. I know you're a very busy man, and I want to thank everybody who listened.

01:59:54

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.