May 13, 2025 Show with Dr. James R. White on “Preparing Viewers for the Debate with Darkness: A Preview of the Upcoming Debate with White Supremacist Corey Mahler”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.

It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon, Cumberland.

County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 13th day of May 2025, and I am so thrilled, as I always am, to have a return visit from one of my oldest friends in the Christian faith, anyway.

His name is Dr. James R. White, definitely no stranger to the vast majority, if not everybody, in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience, world-renowned New Testament Greek scholar, seasoned debater, prolific author, and one of the pastors at Apologia Church in Mesa, Arizona, in addition to being professor of apologetics and church history at Grace Bible Theological Seminary in Conway, Arkansas, and director of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

Today we are going to prepare viewers for the debate with darkness, a preview of the upcoming debate with the avowed white supremacist, excommunicated Lutheran, Corey Mahler, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my.

Dear friend Dr. James R. White. Hey Chris, you want to know about everybody, but you especially will be able to tell that you're getting really old. How? Guess whose birthday it is today. Guess who is 39 years old today?

Is it summer? Josh. Oh, Josh. Wow. 39 years old. He'll be 40 next, for those who don't know my family, Josh is my firstborn, so yeah, I'll have a 40-year-old next year, and of course my oldest granddaughter is going to be 16 in December, so there you go.

That's how you know that the seasons are passing you by. That and the fact that I had to rush here from the audiologist appointment to adjust my hearing aids, it does sound better, I have to admit. So yeah, hey, it's great, you know, we could sit here for the first half hour talking about all of our medical appointments.

Remember when we were young, we'd be sitting in, let's say, one of the Long Island diners that you took me to so many times, and you'd hear the old folks in the booth next door, and they're talking about all their physical problems and doctors, and it's like, you're sitting there going, I'll never be like that, and the next thing you know, you wake up and here's them.

Anyways, yes, back on Iron Sharpens Iron on the week of the debate, and also seeking to sort of rearrange things, not date-wise with you, but as you can probably figure out, I've got a big hole in my upcoming trip in September that I'm now seeking to fill, because I was going to be coming up to be with you right after the G3 conference, which isn't going to happen now.

And so right now what we're thinking, what we want to do with Aldomega is we want to try to bless Jeffrey Rice. And as you know, he got hit by a truck.

Yes.

Just, I mean, you know, let's add up all the stuff. The guy, I think the guy wasn't licensed, it wasn't his truck, didn't have insurance. I mean, just just add, check off all the boxes to leave you with your own medical bills to try to get yourself put back together again after getting hit by a vehicle.

It's just the way life is these days in the United States. So we'll probably invest that time in doing something with him at his church to try to, you know, bring folks in and just, you know, do what we can do.

That's what Aldomega is about. We've always existed for local churches and stuff like that. And so that's what we're gonna try to do. And then go from Tennessee all the way up to Pennsylvania. Did you know that you're way up in the southern northeast part of the country?

I just hope, I really, really hope, last time I came up there to see you, there was a long, long, long, single lane tunnel on one of the roads that I had to take. It was horrible. I mean, I wish I could remember which one that was, because I will drive to Florida to get around going through that tunnel again to get up there.

I really, really will, because it was, whew, you were you'd have a semi coming the other direction and you could see the spinach in the teeth of the driver. That is how close we were. Oh, I was I was so glad to get out.

I almost pulled over and just, you know, sort of got out of the car and, you know, saying praises to God or something. A truck, obviously, that last time around. But anyway, so, yeah, heading your direction and it'll be it'll be a long trip.

You're gonna be right at the end of it. I hope there's something left. I really do. I recall last time I did the your pastor's luncheon, I sat down to do my talk. I was so I was so tired and I'm not getting any younger.

So anyway, but I the one thing I can promise you is I will not wear funny colored slacks like Joe Boone.

Well, I'm I'm looking forward to it. I might as well quickly plug those events here in Pennsylvania before I forget to say them later. But on Thursday, September 18th, Dr. James R. White will once again be the keynote speaker at the Iron Sherpins Iron Radio free pastors luncheon.

Admission is free. Lunch is free. And everybody will get a sack of free brand new books donated by Christian publishers all over the United States, United Kingdom that have been personally selected by me.

And then on that following Sunday, September 21st at one thirty p .m., a great time because that enables even pastors to attend this event since their own worship services will typically be over. But Dr. White will be speaking at the church where I am a member, Trinity Reform Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, pastored by Simon O'Maney, who has actually led to the reformed faith through the writing, teaching and preaching of Dr. White.

And Dr. White will be speaking on can we trust the Bible is the authentic, inerrant word of God. So that's going to be exciting and looking forward to both of those events. If you need any further details, just send me an email to Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com and I'll give you all the information that you need.

But we are discussing, as I already said today, we're going to be providing a preview, as it were, of the upcoming debate with Corey Mahler, who is an avowed white supremacist, anti-Semite, Nazi sympathizer, Adolf Hitler admirer and excommunicated Lutheran.

And the debate is going to be, I believe, two days from now on the 15th of May. And this is already stirred up a lot of controversy. The the major negative feedback that I'm getting is not from white supremacists.

It's it's from predominantly Lutherans who think it's ridiculous that you are allowing somebody like Corey Mahler to have what they would deem as a dignified position being in an academic debate. And perhaps giving a lot more credibility to someone like him than he is deserving.

So how do you respond to that kind of thing? We got the same kind of negative responses when I was publicizing your debate with Dr. Gregory Coles, who is a professing gay Christian, someone who believes in agreement with evangelicals that physically.

Bringing that desire to fruition is wicked and even lust is wicked, no matter whether it's heterosexual or homosexual, but he believes that the state of being same sex attracted is not the sin. And Christians can boldly and proudly wear that as a label.

And that was, I think, a phenomenal debate you did. And we got the same kind of negative feedback before the debate that this is ridiculous that you're even having somebody debate that it's such an easily seen prohibition in the Bible in both testaments.

So how do you respond to those people that think that this is nuts?

Well, I think it'd be good if we actually mentioned what the thesis is.

Oh, yeah, sure.

When I told the church, Apologia Church, I think two weeks ago, Sunday night before it was being announced, what the topic was, they just gasped. They were just stunned. And the vast majority of people are stunned.

The thesis is, can the Holy Spirit sanctify a black person as much as a white person? And that's the vast majority of people. That's the dumbest thing you've ever heard in their life. It's a given. That's easy.

And that's why the Stone Choir cult, which is what I call it. They have a webcast called the Stone Choir. But I call the Stone Choir cult. That's why they're making inroads. That's why people who have their ear to the ground and understand what's going on in the church recognize that these are the people today who are using social media to sneak into the church.

This is the same terminology that's used in Galatians chapter 2, talking about the Judaizers who snuck in to spy out the freedom that we have in Christ. And we did not put up with them for even an hour.

Well, you've got to know who they are to be able to refute them and to not put up with them for even an hour. So these people are making inroads. They're coming into our churches through cell phones, smartphones, tablets, computers, et cetera, et cetera.

And they are subverting primarily young men with all sorts of well, if you listen to them, I've likened it to it's very, very similar, honestly. And most people have never done this. But I've sat and listened to talks by the general authorities, the Mormon Church, in the general conference.

And it's the same type of thing. It's very calm. It's very collected. They say all sorts of true things. But they mix in just enough authority claims and put it in the wrong context to promote the heresies of Mormonism.

The Jehovah's Witnesses do the same thing at the district conventions. And if it's possible, even more boring than the talks at the general conference, which is hard to do, but they do pull it off. And that's what if you listen to the Stone Choir webcast, that's what you're going to get.

You're going to get two people, primarily Corey Mahler and Ryan Woody Dumperth, who goes by the name Woe, sitting there very often saying true things. They'll talk about genetics. They'll talk about history.

And they are presenting themselves as Christians. Corey Mahler is an excommunicated Lutheran from the LCMS. My understanding is that Dumperth was about to go under discipline but fled his church before that could happen.

And they're going to say all sorts of really undeniably true things. It is the context they place it in, the conclusions they draw that are the real issues. And since they're talking about stuff that isn't almost ever discussed within the Christian church, they tap into people's ignorances.

And I am reminded of how Jehovah's Witnesses and I'm not sure how much they do it these days, but they probably still do it. What they used to do is they would come into your home and they would start talking about the Bible.

And they would find for example, they'd use the shape of the cross. Remember the big thing, the big stink with Christianity today? They had the sort of leftist, quote-unquote evangelical scholar that says Jesus wasn't nailed to the cross.

He was probably just tied to the cross, blah, blah, blah, blah. And everybody lost their minds. And I'm sitting here going, man, have we covered that one 47 ,000 times because we deal with Jehovah's Witnesses.

The witnesses will say, well, did you know that Jesus wasn't nailed to a cross? He was nailed to a torture stake. So it was only one nail through both hands above his head. And most people never even heard anything like that.

And then they give their evidences. And what they're trying to do is they're trying to start separating you from your church. They'll do the same thing with holidays, birthdays. Have you ever thought about what happened on Herod's birthday and John the Baptist lost his head?

And Christians never celebrated that kind of thing. And so they're getting you to look at your church, and they're trying to create separation so they can insert their own authority in that place. And that's what Stone Choir does.

That's what these guys are doing. And what has happened, and people need to have some of this background. They've been growing slowly, but what they're saying is being picked up by other people. And other people with larger audiences are borrowing their concepts without necessarily giving credit to where they're getting these concepts.

And maybe not taking them to the same conclusions, but they're still using this material. And so back in January of this year, I have the quote up here. Corey Mahler wrote to me on Twitter publicly and said, I offer you this advice once.

And then he hosts L .U. Throy is my Twitter handle. It means as free men. I offer you this advice once. Retire. Take what remains of your legacy and let it stand on its own without continuing to tear it down.

If you decline, I can assure you that absolutely nothing will remain when you and we are done. So that sounds a little threatening when you think about it. And I've had a number of people contact me to say you need to take that stuff very seriously.

And it's meant that way. But what has happened is, I don't know, about two months ago or so now. Chris Rosenthal, who has been in battle with these folks, because he is a Lutheran and is not excommunicated.

Chris Rosenthal had a conversation with Corey Mahler, an interview with Corey Mahler. And as interesting as it was, I was very disappointed. And I was disappointed because all it did was wandered around out in the weeds of Corey Mahler's very idiosyncratic views of what he says.

He says that the entirety of the Christian faith hangs on two prophecies in Genesis. The Protevangelium in Genesis 3 and the text in Genesis 9, 25 to 27, where you have the cursing of Canaan, Ham's son, and the blessings on Shem and Japheth.

And so what Mahler and the Stone Choir does is they expand on Genesis 9 and 10, the Table of Nations, and they say all of us came from one of the three. All the peoples of the earth come from either Ham, Shem, or Japheth, which is true in one sense.

You have what they would call a genetic bottleneck there, which, yeah, that's true. But then they misinterpret and twist the curse that is placed upon Canaan, and they place it upon Ham. They make Ham the father of the black peoples.

And that kind of theology and teaching is unfortunately the same thing that was taught, for example, by the fourth president of the Southern Baptist Convention in the antebellum South. That was the kind of theology that was being presented by those defending slavery.

And then, of course, it became central to the theology of the KKK after the Civil War. And so this is, you know, it's not that Mahler has thought this stuff all up himself. It does have a history to it, primarily in the American South, as their understanding that Ham was the ancestor of the blacks and things like this.

And so in that interview with Chris Rosbaugh, they just sort of wandered around out there and never really got to anything that was really central to refuting any of that. And then I saw that Samuel Say was going to have a discussion with him.

And I listened to that as well. And again, because it was a discussion and not a debate, there wasn't one particular focus. And Mahler is a trained attorney. And so he knows how to obfuscate professionally.

And so he did that again. Samuel did, however, press him not only on the issues of the Genesis 9, but at one point he just basically asked him, are you saying the Holy Spirit cannot sanctify a black person as much as a white person?

And he said, yes, that's what I'm saying. So a couple of days after that, and that took place in the Bible Dinger's YouTube channel. Bible Dinger's contacted me and they said, we really feel we think Samuel did fine, but we really feel that someone with serious debate experience needs to take him on.

And I'm like, well, I'll be honest with you. I said, what does he want to debate? And they said, is racism a sin? Because the stone choir viewpoint is racism is demanded by scripture. That to honor your father and mother means to honor your race over against any other race.

And that, therefore, they're against miscegenation. They're against a white person being married to a black person. You're betraying your fathers. Of course, Mahler has said many times, if you live in America, you should never have to see a black person.

No black person is an American. And so he's, you know, what this is leading to is very, very plain and obvious and clear. But I'm like, yeah, no, I'm not going to wander around again in the weeds of Genesis chapter nine.

So I said, I'll tell you what I'll debate him on. I will debate him on whether the Holy Spirit can sanctify a black person as much as a white person, because I did not think there was anybody on Earth dumb enough to take that one on.

And they came back and said, they say, that's fine. We'll do it. And so what this allows, I think it's the perfect thesis. It's undefeatable. You know, and I would say any Christian pastor who could not mount a extremely strong defense.

Of the thesis that there is no distinction at all in the renewing work of the Holy Spirit of God, that all the elect of God are the recipients of the presence of the Holy Spirit, the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives, and that they are being conformed the image of Christ.

And that that is completely within the power of the spirit of God. If you can't defend that, you probably shouldn't be preaching. You shouldn't be doing what you're doing. And so what that will allow me to do is to provide such an incredible contrast between the wandering around in the esoteric, obscure stuff about racial genetics and population studies and all this kind of stuff.

And he only has 15 minutes to make his opening statement. I mean, you can't hardly even establish your parameters in that type of context. And what I'm going to be doing the many, many, many, many clear text.

I mean, I have there's a whole text I'm going to be able to get to. I don't have enough time that are very clear in saying to us God's purpose in election is to create a people who are made in the image of Christ, who build the kingdom of Christ, and that there is no distinction between them.

Male, female, bond free, Jew, Gentile, Scythian, barbarian, Christ is all and in all. And this renewing work of the spirit is present in all of them and that there is not a scintilla of evidence whatsoever that.

The reading of Genesis 9 and 10 that Mahler demands. Is even present in the mind of any apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ. It's just not there. It just it just isn't there. So. They agree. And I'm like, well, I think the most important thing we can do is to demonstrate to everybody that the stone choir cult has no concept of what the gospel is.

This will expose their utter white supremacy. And hopefully be a resource to people in the future to be able to counsel young men that you all of a sudden discover are getting ready to leave the church and they're getting ready to leave the church.

Why?

Well, because they've been listening to the stone choir and they've got all these crazy ideas in their head. So the answer to your question and the objection is these people already have an audience, right?

They everybody's already carrying a cell phone in their in their pocket. And so they already have direct access to your young people. And so, you know, I've had people say, well, you know, if you just ignore them, they go away.

No, they're not.

You may be ignorant of what's going on. You may be ignorant of this movement. You may be ignorant of how many relationships have been disrupted and promising young men that the elders were working with to raise them up toward leadership have gone off into wild and crazy stuff.

You may be ignorant of all that. OK, fine. Some of the rest of us are not ignorant of that. And so when the opportunity avails itself and is made available, especially with a thesis this clear and this compelling, why in the world would you not do that?

Now, I can understand, you know, there was a professor at Biola University back in 2006 who did not know who I was and never seen any of my debates. You know, it's possible he had tried to watch some of the Roman Catholic debates, but he couldn't get past that weird guy that introduced all of them.

Folks, he's referring to me as the weird guy.

What? People didn't already get that? Chris, let me let me. Chris, let me explain. When you have to explain the joke, you ruin the joke. I heard that from some guy once. I can't remember who it was, but I think that was also me.

Yeah, you've forgotten everything you taught me. But that's that's sad. But you are considerably older than I am. What, 11 months? Something like that.

Oh, that's when you used a donkey in a joke about Democrats. Yeah, I completely killed the joke.

Yes, I did. I did. There's no two ways. But I just couldn't get myself to to say those bad, bad words anyway. Anyway, but this this whole situation is going to give us just such a clear opportunity to expose this movement.

And so when when people get all upset, it's like, look, folks, you need to know they're already there. They're already known by the young people in your church. Maybe not. Maybe maybe you've been really blessed by God, but.

They're all over the place and there needs to be a response and we're going to have the opportunity of doing so. And so I just pray that everyone will pray that the truth will be clearly proclaimed on on Thursday evening.

Again, I expect Mahler to be. Calm and cool as a cucumber.

He's devoid of emotion. He's robotic.

He is somewhat robotic. Yeah, he's not he is not interesting to listen to at all on that level. He just there is no passion there at all. But I'm going to have to make sure to be very self-controlled.

I've not my first debate. And so, yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I just realized. I was going to tell you that this professor came up to me at Biola and. When I first debated Shabir Ali, he had tried to stop that debate from happening.

Wow.

Because you know who I was and he knew that Shabir Ali was very good and he had seen what had happened in the past. And so he tried to stop that debate. Thankfully, he didn't stop that debate and was in attendance and was thrilled at how it actually went.

And I ended up working with him and his group for a number of years. They helped me to learn Arabic and. Wow. And things like that. But the point is, you know, I understand, you know, he he's concerned that he's going to have to do all the repair if this thing goes south.

OK, I get it. I wouldn't want somebody who didn't know where Corey Muller was coming from or who couldn't read Greek and Hebrew and didn't know church history and had no experience doing this. Yeah. Would not be good for you to debate Corey Muller.

I get that. But this will be like debate number one hundred and ninety seven, I think.

Wow.

And so, yeah, I think that. We should be able to make a very, very clear statement this coming Thursday.

Another sign of how old we are, because I think you were in single digits when I started arranging debates with you.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. When you called me that day and I was wondering where you got the number.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think it was single digits because it had been, you know, three or four. I was getting toward ten maybe by that point in time. But, yeah, they didn't really start stacking up until we started doing Long Island stuff.

And of course, there are a number of those trips. We did more than one debate.

Oh, yeah.

Where we did the Hamza Abdul Malik debate. Same year as we did it. Or I mean, Catholic debate and stuff like that. So, yeah, they started rolling at that point. And they've they've been they sort of slowed down in 2020, obviously.

But they're they're picking back up now. We'll get there. Maybe we'll find out.

Well, we have to go to our first commercial break. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Dr. White, our email address is Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com. Give us your first name, at least city and state of residence and country of residence.

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I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord and his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

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And don't forget, folks, CVBBS .com is now shipping worldwide. We're back with our discussion with Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, and we are giving you a preview of his upcoming debate scheduled for two days from now, May 15th, with avowed white supremacist and excommunicated Lutheran Corey Mahler, who runs a podcast called The Stones Will Cry Out.

Actually, I'm sorry, that's where he gets that name, the Stone Choir. He tries to give it a biblical facade by alluding to that passage in Luke 19, 39 and 40, where we read,. And yet some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to him, meaning Jesus' teacher, rebuke your disciples.

And Jesus replied, I tell you, if these stop speaking, the stones will cry out. And that's where he gets the Stone Choir name from, trying to legitimize his organization biblically, which is a miserable failure as far as I'm concerned.

But the theme of this debate that Dr. White and Corey Mahler will be having is, can a black person be sanctified as much as a white person? Or can the Holy Spirit sanctify a black person as much as a white person?

And now, Dr. White, how will the listeners of this interview that we are conducting right now, how will we be able to watch this debate? Dr. White, are you there? For some reason, we don't have Dr. White.

Oh, yes, yes, yes. Sorry, sorry. I always remember to mute Mike during the commercials, because I had a bad cough or something like that, and you just about disowned me. So I make sure to mute it now.

And unfortunately, it was under about three different windows to get to it.

By the way, I muted on my end now, so you don't have to worry about that.

Oh, OK. Well, that was multitasking for you. Everybody who knows you knows you better, you know, leave it as simple as possible on the technological level for this. Anyway, what were we saying? Yes, the link is already live on YouTube.

So if you put James White, Corey Mahler into the search bar at YouTube, it will come up and it'll say, you know, 48 hours from now or probably a little bit more than that right now. And that's how you can watch it live.

And Rich and I have been talking about, we sort of expect it probably to be the most watched live debate that I've done. Wow. Yeah, I think so. I really think there's that much interest in it. We may have had more people watching a live debate like at Biola or something like that, but I don't think so.

I have a feeling there will be many, many thousands of people tuning in and watching it live because they have their audience. And then there's all the people who understand how important this topic is and how it needs to be dealt with.

So, yeah, five o 'clock my time, eight o 'clock your time, Eastern Daylight Time. I have to explain that to people because the only people who understand the difference between Standard Time and Daylight Time are people who live in Arizona where we don't do any of that.

It's just so frustrating that we're the only ones that understand the difference. But it will be eight o 'clock Eastern Time and five o 'clock Pacific Time is when the debate will be taking place. It's only about two hours long, 15-minute opening statements, 15-minute rebuttals, two 10-minute periods for each of us.

That's 40 minutes cross-examination. I think the closing statements were 10, if I recall correctly. And then some level, some space for audience questions. I'll be honest with you, in almost 200 debates now, audience questions are helpful about 15 of the time and sort of neutral about 15 of the time.

And deleterious to the debate, 70 of the time. So we'll see.

Are you going to have handwritten questions rather than people having the opportunity to give speeches?

Well, remember, I don't even know where he lives. This is all on YouTube. So I'm not going to be in his presence. He's not going to be in mine. This is going to be done online. So the questions would be being asked, I assume, in the comments section on YouTube, which in and of itself will be the biggest, craziest pile of chaos that's ever been seen.

But I'm leaving that up to the BibleDingers guys. They're the guys that are moderating and hosting the program. And if they can figure out how to monitor questions, record questions, do something, great.

I'm not sure exactly how it's going to work out on that end. As long as it's somewhat fair, I hope, we'll see. But hopefully it's not an extended period of time because, like I said, I rarely find them to be overly helpful.

And we know that Corey Mahler, as we've already said in the announcements, is an excommunicated Lutheran. He's also an attorney. It's amazing to even think about what kind of clients he has. Oh, that's an interesting painting on your wall of a Klansman, just out of curiosity.