True and False Conversion — Ray Comfort

Charles Finney said this evermore the law must prepare the way for the gospel to overlook this and instructing souls is almost certain to result in false Hope the introduction of a false standard of Christian experience and to fill the church with false converts.

And they said time will make this plain. John Wesley said Regarding those who failed to use the law and evangelism. All this proceeds from the deepest ignorance of the nature of the properties the use of the law and proves that those who act thus Either know not Christ are out of strangers to living faith or at least that they are but babes in Christ and as such unskilled in the words of righteousness.

Martin Luther said Satan the God of all dissensions stirs up daily new sects and last of all which of all other I should never have foreseen or once suspected. He has raised up a sect as teach that such the ten commandments ought to be taken out of the church and that men should not Be terrified by the law, but gently exhorted by the preaching of the grace of Christ.

Charles Spurgeon said they'll never accept grace until they tremble for a just and holy law and George Whitfield said these words. That is the reason we have so many mushroom converts. That's converts of spring about of nowhere and disappear because their stony ground is not plowed up.

The Law Prepares the Way for the Gospel

They have not got a conviction of the law. They are stony ground hearers. Okay, Roman 7 verse 4. Let's read it. Wherefore my brethren you also are become dead to the law. By the body of Christ that you should be married to another even to him who was raised from the dead.

That we should bring forth fruit unto God. Wherefore my brethren you also become to the law by the body of Christ. That you should be married to another even to him who was raised from the dead that you should bring forth fruit unto God.

In the book called hell's best-kept secret. We have a story of a young speedster Who was drunk and drove through his town with his hand on a horn 120 miles an hour. Now the town had no law against speeding everything was horse-drawn a backward town.

So they gathered together and passed a law stating that 60 miles an hour was the maximum speed. Back comes the drunkard this time. They nab him throw him in prison lay him with a $6 ,000 fine. He's got no money.

No words defense. He's gonna spend a long time in prison. His father arrives at the door and says son because I loved you I sold all my worldly goods and paid the fine for you. You are free to go. What therefore is the son's attitude going to be to his father?

Well, he's gonna be blown away. He's gonna be broken by his father's sacrifice. And now he is going to live a life that is pleasing to his father in the light of his father's sacrifice, man. His father did that for him the least he can do is live a life that is pleasing to his father.

What is his attitude going to be to the law? But he owes nothing to the law. Absolutely nothing it has been satisfied by the sacrifice of his father. The law has no demand on him. Now with those thoughts in mind look at Romans 7 verse 4 again.

Wherefore my brethren you also become dead to the law by the body of Christ. DL Moody said the law can only chase a man to Calvary no further. We have become dead to the law by the body of Christ. That's the payment of the father the body of Christ.

The law has been satisfied. We're not under its wrath any longer if we're in Christ. That you should be married to another even to him who was raised from the dead that you should bring forth fruit unto God.

The Fruit of a Genuine Christian Life

So we now as Christians those whose sins have been forgiven by the blood of Christ bring forth the fruit of a new lifestyle. It's pleasing in the sight of God if we're rooted and grounded in Christ. It should be evident.

Jesus said I am the vine you are the branches. He that abides in me. The same brings forth much fruit. Colossians 1 says the gospel brings forth fruit now. What does the Bible mean by fruit? Well very briefly number one fruit of repentance.

Matthew 3 verse 8 if you're stolen you'll return stolen goods. Zacchaeus is fruit of repentance. Return. That which is stolen fourfold fruit of repentance. Matthew 3 verse 8. Secondly fruit of good works.

Colossians 1 verse 10. If you're a Christian, it should be evident by your good works. Wesley said do all the good you can. By all the means you can and all the ways you can and all the places you can to all the people you can.

As long as you ever can. And if you read the book of Titus, you'll see again and again. It says things like let those who have believed in God be careful to maintain good works. First Peter 2 15 for so is the will of God that by your well-doing you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men.

If you want to be a witness to your friends your workmates don't preach to them buy them gifts. Somebody your work they don't like you just leave a gift on their desk. It's ours out shopping thought you might like this.

Bottle of sparkling non-alcoholic wine or something like that thought you'd like it. You'll stop his mouth. It's I don't agree that guy believes. But he really is genuine for so is the will of God that by your well-doing you'll put to silence The ignorance of foolish men.

Often when I want to witness to someone I'll give him a hamburger. It shuts him up. He can't speak through his mouth and he shows it shows that I can really care about the guy. I'm not just after his soul.

Jesus said let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your father who is in heaven. Number three the fruit of Thanksgiving. Hebrews 13 verse 15. If you're saved you'll kneel at the foot of that blood-stained cross and say Oh, thanks be to God for the unspeakable gift.

Number four fruit of the Spirit. Galatians 5 22. If you're soundly saved it'll be evident by the fact that you have the fruit of the Spirit. God's nature will manifest itself through you love joy. Peace patience goodness gentleness faith meekness and temperance and The fruit of righteousness.

Philippians 1 verse 11. You'll walk a path of righteousness. You'll be righteous and all your dealings with other you'll have righteous thoughts. You'll do that which is right. Philippians 1 verse 11 and then Matthew 3 verse 10 says every tree that brings not forth good fruit Will be cut down and cast into the fire.

Doesn't just say fruit. It's just good fruit. Every tree that brings not forth good fruit will be cut down and cast into the fire. So as Christians as witnesses of Christ our aim shouldn't be just to get youth group members church members.

No, we want to see fruit bearers because every tree that brings not forth good fruit will be cut down and cast into the fire. So to get an insight into what hinders and produces fruit look at mark 3 of chapter 4.

The Parable of the Sower

Mark 4 verse 3 we see. Perhaps the most important of Jesus parables and Verse 3 it's called the parable of the sower. He says these words hearken behold that's been well said if you ever find the word behold in Scripture.

It's like a little trumpet sounding and saying hey, this is important. Listen, if you ever see the word hearken means the same thing. But here we have Jesus saying hearken behold in other words a double trumpet something important is coming up.

There went out a sow to sow. And it came to pass as he sowed some fell by the wayside and the fowls of the air Came and devoured it and some fell on stony ground where it had no not much earth and immediately it sprang up because they had No depth of earth.

But when the Sun came up it was scorched and because they had no root it withered away. And some fell among thorns and the thorns grew up and choked it and it yielded no fruit. Another fell on good ground.

And it did yield fruit that sprang up and increased and brought forth some thirty fold. Some sixty and some a hundred fold. And he said to them he that has ears to hear. Let him hear. And then in verse 13. We see an incredible Bible verse.

It seems the disciples had no idea what Jesus was saying. So Jesus said this to them. He said to them. Do you not know this parable? How then will you know all parables. In other words the parable of the sower is The key to unlock the mystery of the other parables and the parable of the soul.

We see there is true and false conversion when the gospel is preached when the seed is sown. There are false converts and true converts alongside one another and once we understand that principle once we know this parable.

Then we will understand all the other parables. The sheep and the goats the true and false. The wise virgins the foolish virgins true and false. The good fish and the bad fish true and false in the net together.

The wheat and the tears the true and false alongside each other now. The parable of the sower is also given to us in Matthew 13 and Luke chapter 8. So using the harmony of the Gospels, we're going to look at six characteristics of a stony ground hero.

Let me read the rest of that parable so we see the interpretation that Jesus gave verse 14 the sower sows the word and These are they which on the wayside when the word is sown when they have heard Satan comes immediately.

Takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. And these are they in like manner that are sown on stony ground who when they have heard the word immediately receive it with gladness. And no root in themselves and so endure but for a time afterward when affliction or persecution arises for the word's sake immediately they're offended and these are they that are sown on among thorns such as hear the word and the cares of this age and the Deceitfulness of riches and the last of other things entering in choke the word and it becomes unfruitful.

And these are they that are sown on good ground such as hear the word and receive it and bring forth fruit some thirtyfold some sixty and some and hundred. So as I said using the harmony of the Gospels, we're going to look at six characteristics of a false convert so Number one in a false conversion.

Six Marks of a False Conversion

There are immediate results mark 4 verse 5. That is there's no weighing of the issues. No doing what Jesus said. What man goes to build a tower and doesn't check that he's got enough materials. What man goes to war without checking to see if the enemy has got more weapons than he's got.

No, there's no Weighing of the issues their immediate results mark 4 verse 5. Secondly, there's a lack of moisture. Luke 8 verse 6. Thirdly, there's a lack of root. Matthew 13 verse 16. That's shallow.

Before they receive the word with gladness. There is no contrition or sorrow for sin. Mark 4 verse 16 number 5 they receive the word with joy. Matthew 13 verse 20 and number 6 for a while they do believe and this is where the confusion comes in.

We think someone's had a false conversion, but they really did believe of course. They did believe. The Bible says they did believe they have a genuine false conversion experience if you can figure that.

Now we're going to look at some pictures on the overhead for those that hear the tape. I'll describe the picture in detail in picture number one. We have two plants or plants. We see on the left side.

We have a large plant. It looks healthy and a little plant next to it. That looks kind of spindly and if we had to make room in our garden. Probably the sensible thing to do would be rip out this one.

That's not doing very well and leave the good healthy plant there to grow. But then something unusual happens that the Sun comes out and the healthy big plant seems to be withering while the little stumpy plant seems to be doing well in the heat of the sunlight and.

The third picture we see why the big plant was withering. Because the soil was on was very shallow. And because I had no depth of root the roots couldn't go deep because it was bedrock under the soil.

The little plant looked not very healthy. It's in all its goodness all its energy into a large root system. It was in good soil and it sought after moisture. So let me repeat that The big plant was on shallow soil and because I had no depth of soil I had no depth of root to seek after moisture.

It was on bedrock. The little plant had good soil and therefore sent its roots and deep under the heat of the sunlight. Now, can you see that it was a sunlight? That revealed what we couldn't see under the soil.

Tribulation Reveals the Heart

Now in the spiritual the sunlight is tribulation temptation and persecution. Tribulation Matthew 13 21 temptation Luke 8 verse 13 and persecution Mark 4 verse 17. It is a sunlight of Tribulation and temptation and persecution that reveal what we can't see in the soil or the heart condition of a professing believer.

Just as it was the sunlight to reveal what we couldn't see under the soil and the plants. So it's the sunlight of tribulation temptation and persecution. That reveal what we can't see the soil or heart condition of a professing believer.

Now if you buy a house plant, it costs you $25. And you look at and say this is an expensive house plant and take it home. And you say I'm gonna put this in the closet. I'm gonna put it in a nice dark cupboard to keep it away from the horrible sunlight.

Your plant will die. The best thing you can do for a plant a house plant is put it in the sunlight. And if you know what you're doing, you'll rotate it. Make sure it's in good soil and you'll make sure it's got access to plenty of moisture.

The worst thing you can do with a farm is hide it from the sunlight because the sunlight will benefit it if it's in good soil and has access to moisture and the same way the worst thing you and I can ever do is Shelter a new Christian from the sunlight of tribulation temptation of persecution.

No, the sunlight will reveal what you can't see the soil condition of his heart. Years ago when Russia was in communism I heard of a true story where a group of Christians Or professing Christians were praying in a prayer meeting.

Suddenly the doors burst open to Russian guards stood there. They were fully armed. They said if you're not prepared to die for your faith get out of this place and half the professed Christians. Left the prayer meeting once the doors were closed put their guns down.

Open the jackets got out the Bibles and said we're Christians. We just wanted to sort the sheep out from the goats before we'd risk fellowship now if our country Came under a Russian guard clean out. What it would do would purify the church.

The professed Christians would leave a severe persecution came on the contemporary church. It would purify the church that would get rid of murmurs complainers false converts. Those that cause division that's one thing it would do it would purify the church and secondly I think more importantly of severe persecution came to a church or our church the contemporary church.

What it would do is it will reveal to the stony ground here and the thorny ground here the false convert. The error of his ways that he's a false convert. Could you imagine the tragedy of propping up someone that you let in us in his prayer now?

The Danger of Manipulative Evangelism

Let's say you didn't do it biblically you didn't do it according to the pattern of biblical evangelism instead. You listen to modern evangelism, and you learned the manipulative techniques of modern evangelism.

And you went up to someone and said this instead of doing it biblically you do it like modern evangelism teachers. You go up and say if you come to the point in your life. Well, you know that if you die tonight, you're going to heaven and the person said well I hope so and you say to them well.

You know that you can know so if you die tonight, you know it you can know you're going to heaven. All you got to do is repent of your sins. Give your heart to Jesus and he died on the cross for you rose again on the third day if you give your heart to him.

Today you can have assurance that when you die you go to heaven. Would you like me to pray with you right now and lead you in a sinner's prayers? So you could have that assurance and the person says yeah, I'd like that.

So you take him by the hand and you lead him in a sincere sinner's prayer. You get a decision for Jesus with modern methods. But you find there is something wrong with your convert. There's no zeal for the lost.

He doesn't evangelize the world's gonna hell, and he couldn't care less. He's like a fireman. Who sits on the fire hydrant drinking coffee making jokes with his friends? Or someone is burning to death that he has the ability to save now.

He's not concerned about the welfare of those that are going to help. Secondly, he's got no hunger for the word. Thirdly, he doesn't really get in a fellowship very much, but he saved because he gave his heart to Jesus.

So what you do is you read the Bible to him you pick him up make sure he comes to church. Even though he says he's busy. You prop him up. Even though he says he's got readers digest to read and TV guide.

He hasn't got time to read his Bible you read it to him and you're able to prop up and keep him going in his Faith right until Judgment Day when the omniscient eye of a holy God reveals that he's a hypocrite never found a place of genuine repentance.

Whose fault is it that he made it all the way at Judgment Day? With this false assurance assurance that he's safe better to let him fall down. Don't shield him from the sunlight. Let the sunlight of tribulation temptation persecution come to him and reveal to him his true state.

And for years I'm speaking from experience tragic years of experience where I propped up profess Christians I'd lead them in a sinner's prayer. They had no desire to read the word. Look, if you've got a little lamb and it hasn't got a healthy appetite.

Something is radically wrong if you've got a lamb and you bottle feeder it just about swallows the bottle if it's healthy and Someone who was healthy as a Christian won't desire this and see a milk of the word.

They will have a desire. They will say with David. I rejoice to your word is one who finds great spoil. And when I was a Christian there wasn't a day I'd I've been 29 years a Christian. I've never let a day go by when I haven't read God's Word.

I Esteem the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. There is a a natural or a supernatural desire to read God's Word. I discipline myself. Hereby, we know that we know him if we keep his commandments.

And I these people didn't have time read the Bible didn't have time to get to church and yet Jesus said in Luke 9 62 If a new convert even looks back he's not fit for the kingdom. If we even look back Jesus said we're not fit for the kingdom that would fit as you said.

Oh, it means ready for use. The soil of the heart has been turned. Exposing the stones of sin that are removed through repentance so we can receive the engrafted word. Remember what George Whitfield said that is the reason we have so many mushroom converts.

Because their stony ground is not plowed up. They have not got a conviction of the law. He said that's the reason we have so many Mushroom converts because their stony ground is not plowed up. They have not got a conviction of the law.

Examining the Evidence of Conversion

I Had a friend once his name was Richard. He came into my office and he said Ray he said I don't seem to have the zeal that you guys have got. I don't really care about the lost. I don't have a hunger for the word.

Something's not really right in my Christian war. So I said to him Richard have you got love joy peace patience goodness gentleness faith meekness meekness and temperance and he said no. So I think seven of the nine fruits of the Spirit.

So I said Richard sounds to me like you're not even a Christian by your own confession. There's no evidence. Now that point of time he exercised the fruit of self-control because he said later he wanted to rearrange my face.

But instead of doing it he went home. Examined himself to see if he was in the faith and when he realized he wasn't he repented and within three months He was in a responsible position with our church because he was such a fruit bearer.

Colossians verse 5 of chapter 4 says walk in wisdom toward them that are without redeeming the time. I Used to look at that verse and say walk in wisdom toward them that are without. Oh, yeah, that's them.

That's the world. They're without. I'm gonna walk in wisdom toward them, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it means more than that. Walk in wisdom toward them that are without. Someone can be within your church and be without the body of Christ.

They can sit next to you on a pew as a professing Christian. Walk in wisdom toward them that are without. Redeeming the time because if anyone will steal your time from you it is a false convert. It's a stony-ground hero.

They will be hearers of the word and not doers. Man I've spent so many hours Counseling people that didn't need counsel. They needed repentance. Remember the plant was beginning to wither and die under the heat of the Sun if you look that person.

Oh man plants withering and dying. I'm gonna fix it up and you got fertilizer and you put fertilizer up to the top leaf. Is it going to help the plant? It doesn't need fertilizer. It needs good soil and a false convert doesn't need the fertilizer of counsel.

It needs a good soil of an honest and repentant heart. And a number of years ago. I wished I'd had a video camera. Because I was gonna step across the road. And I saw this guy coming toward me before I tell you about that story and tell you something else.

I Was an associate pastor at a church way down under in New Zealand. And by the way, New Zealand is a different country from Australia. Okay, people saw Australia's in the same country. It's like saying Canada United States same country.

No, no there were a thousand miles apart. Australians speak different from New Zealanders. Australians say. They speak more like this down my mate. Okay, it's more nasal and they they put their heads down crocodiles mouths and things like that.

They're rather strange. But when I was down under I was an associate pastor of a fairly large church. We had a senior pastor who was a very godly man a real shepherd. He so loved his flock. Now, he was really skinny.

He used to make jokes about his skinniness. He only had one stripe on his pajamas. He had to run around in the shower to get wet. The guy was real skinny. He says man, I pig out. I don't put on any weight.

I think he had his glorified body. I tell you that for a reason is about six foot 120 pounds whatever something like that, but he's pretty frail. He really was one night. Someone came to his door 3 a .m. For counsel.

It was a guy from his church. They used to go to his church. One of his teenage sons got up and open the door. He said I want to talk to your dad. I need some counsel. So he knowing his father's heart that he was a shepherd by by nature.

Didn't hesitate to go and wake his dad up at 3 o 'clock in the morning to counsel this guy. He said the guy go and wait in the living room. So the father got up. Came down the hallway stepped into the living room and as he did a 14-inch blade machete came down and hacked into him.

This guy tried to kill him. His teenage sons heard him screaming. They ran into the room. The pastor's blood was scattered around the walls. They grabbed the guy. They almost killed him because they thought he killed the father.

Father lived. He had massive blood transfusions. It's destroyed his ministry destroyed his life next day. Another pastor called me says you had him last night. This is so heavy. He said heavy. He said that guy went to my church.

He said can you imagine that a Christian. Trying to kill the pastor. I said what I said, hang on a minute. If someone in your church tries to cut the head off the pastor, you can probably conclude He lacks a little bit in the area of love goodness gentleness self-control.

The folks we're gonna stop saying, oh, he's a Christian he gave his heart to Jesus. No, no look for fruit. Look for fruit. We're gonna stop putting our arm around everyone who says yeah, I've given my heart to Jesus now.

Look for fruit until you're assured. What can be assured of a salvation? May not matter to you today. But it certainly mattered in the time of Paul when Christians are being thrown to lions because they were being betrayed By other professing Christians as I said.

The Bible speaks of false conversion false brethren false apostles false prophets false teachers and true and false conversion. As I said, I was walking along the street when suddenly I heard it. Not down the street.

There was this car in the middle of the road. No muffler. Screaming down the road. I thought man, I gotta get off the road step off road before this guy kills me. Suddenly as it went past and slammed on its anchors, which is a down-under co-oculism.

That means it stopped and it backed up. And this guy got out as I said, I wish I'd had a video camera because he was the ultimate stony ground hero he had Three Jesus stickers on the front windshield of his car.

No, no, no, no, no Jesus stickers. They're good but he had three on the front windshield of his car when he got out he had his shirt unbuttoned to his navel and Amidst the great bush of hair on his chest a little bit of jealousy there.

There was this great big wooden cross dangling there to convince me he was a true Christian. You see what a false convert lacks inwardly he'll try and press you with outwardly. He said can I see you get some counsel off you.

And I told him I was busy for a couple of decades. Because they'll steal your time. The false convert will have more stickers more t-shirts. Say hallelujah louder, and he'll probably even have a bigger Bible than most.

Perseverance Through Trials and Persecution

I Know as a new Christian I came under the heat of tribulation. I never known anything like it. Anyone here had a wilderness experience if you know what that is. I went into such depression after about two weeks as a Christian, but I didn't hold my fist at God.

I dropped to my knees. Says oh god, this is this is like hell. I never want to fall away from you. I got a look back and say it was good for me that I was afflicted that I might learn your statutes. Tribulation strengthened me caused my roots to go deep into God's Word.

Judas as an Example of False Profession

Some say Judas was a Christian. You may be confused as to whether Judas was a Christian or a non-christian. Well, let me tell you something. Judas fooled the disciples. Jesus said One of you is a devil now.

There's a good clue see. Judas really cared about the poor when some woman broke an alabaster a box of ointment. It was very expensive. Judas complained and says this should have been sold on the money given to the poor.

The Bible says he didn't care about the poor. He was a thief. He looked after the bag. He stole from the collection bag. He was a hypocrite a thief and he was living a lie a worker of iniquity. But he hid it well from the other disciples.

Judas had no idea who Jesus was. Absolutely, no idea Jesus wasn't worthy of this act of worship. That should have been sold money given the poor. No Jesus worth about 30 pieces of silver. No idea that this was life manifest in the flesh the most precious Precious thing that ever walked this earth Was manifest in that body.

But he hid it well. When Jesus said one of you will betray me the disciples didn't say, huh? We know who that is. Yeah, I'll hook nose. Rotten old Judas. Yeah. Yeah, I'm surprised. No, they said is it I Lord is it me?

They examined themselves rather than look to Judas because he hid it. Well false convert when he leaves and branches Jesus said it's he who puts us off in the dish. Judas put that bread in the dish and When they still didn't know that was Judas because Jesus said what you do go and do quickly.

And it says the disciples thought he gone to give money to the poor. They still didn't know. But he didn't fool Jesus. The Bible says Jesus knew from the beginning who would betray him and if you're a false convert if you're a Judas.

The only one you're deceiving is yourself. Because you're not deceiving your creator. He sees right through your facade. He sees your heart and maybe Through this teaching you'll be awakened. If you read the book of Colossians verses 7 to 14, you'll see that when Paul Spoke of certain believers.

He put a seal of approval on him. He said things like Anesimus a faithful and beloved brother who was one of you if he comes to you receive him. He goes through these list of people and says he's a beloved brother if he comes to you receive him.

And he went right through this list of people saying yep, you can trust him. But when he came to a guy called Demas, he just isn't. Demas greet you. Why. Well we see in the book of Timothy 2nd. Timothy 4 verse 10 Demas has forsaken me having loved this present world.

Demas has forsaken me having loved this present world. So Paul looked at Demas and thought Now I'm not going to say if Demas comes to you receive him. I'm gonna wait and see and he was eventually exposed.

Characteristics of a True Convert

So just as we begin to draw to a close. Which is a meaningless preacher statement, which is often said Let me share with you Some characteristics of a true convert. Then we'll close. The true convert is he who hears and understands.

Now, what is it that produces understanding? In the soil. The heart of a an unregenerate person. If we want to produce genuine converts should we look around for people who hear and understand? Are they out there waiting for us?

No, the Bible says there's none that understand none. So the understanding that's in the heart of the true convert must come from an outer source. Outside his own heart. What is it that can produce understanding the heart of an unregenerate person?

Aha, it's the law. Paul says it's a schoolmaster. Brings the knowledge of sin. What the schoolmaster does is it teaches sinners. It brings an understanding and knowledge of sin. So we can find a place of genuine repentance.

So devalues a seat of everlasting life so we can see that he's undone. He's condemned. And so when he hears the gospel, he embraces it. He's convinced of the disease. So will he appreciate and appropriate?

The cure he who hears and understands. And I've been in meetings. Well, I remember once I was a part of the leadership in a city. We had 3 ,000 people show up for a meeting. We had an international overseas Evangelist come in.

He didn't preach the Lord and preach the cross. Didn't preach repentance. Didn't preach righteousness. Didn't preach Judgment Day. Didn't mention how he just talked on faith. Right in the middle of it.

He said ah, he's a sound stop stop stop. Everyone bear in prayer. It's as though God had suddenly spoken of it seemed very spiritual and then he used modern methods to get decisions. He said every head bowed and I closed while the music is playing.

You need to give your heart to Jesus. Something is missing in your life. He said raise your hand if God is speaking to you now and hands raised up and he says, okay I want everyone to stand now. He says now I saw you raise your hand you come to the front now.

He put psychological manipulation out came the counselors as the draw card. Then came the music for the emotional thing and then he got 80 decisions. Great success. But I could see the facial expression on those that made a decision.

Was like what am I doing up here? I mean, oh, oh. It's as though they thought how do I get from my seat up here and was because they were manipulated by Psychological means. Someone who counseled those who've made decisions said it was just a madhouse out the back.