Austin Hobbs and Irresistible Grace - Part 2

Welcome to No Compromise Radio Ministry. Mike Ebendroth here, your host, with Austin Hobbs as a special guest.

I know, you're excited! Happy to be back! You can write me,

Mike, at NoCompromiseRadio .com. I guess you can write Austin at Info at NoCompromiseRadio .com.

Or is it AustinHobbs at BBCChurch .org if they want to write you? Yeah, Austin .Hobbs at BBCChurch .org.

All right. So you've been married now since June 6th. And you guys have a dog.

Tell me about your dog. Yeah, we have a little pit bull terrier, Brandy. Sweetest dog in the whole world, genuinely.

And we found her just off the street. It's crazy what happened. She was just running on the street one day, and two of our friends were driving past each other.

They both stopped because they thought it was their dog. And they stopped, and they opened the door, and Brandy just hopped in.

So Austin's friends fostered her for a few weeks. And this was before we got engaged. And Austin sent me a picture of Brandy.

I was like, oh, cool dog. Then she was like, oh, she's cuddly, she's sweet, she doesn't bark.

I was like, oh, you want me to adopt her. So basically I adopted her.

So my four other roommates at RTS, we kept her at our house. I took care of her primarily.

But she's been a very sweet dog. We love her to death, and she's amazing. Sometimes she even shows up here in the building at Bethlehem Bible Church.

My dog, her name was Jetty, a Jack Russell, sometimes I'd bring her with me, and she would just sit by my feet here and record the show.

And she's like, okay, when you're done recording, no compromise radio, we'll get going again. So I don't think

I've heard your dog bark. She doesn't bark at all? She will bark outside the window if she sees people.

And when you moved into the parsonage adjacent to the church, it snowed a lot this winter.

Tell our listeners about the American flag incident. Oh, yeah. So we wanted to shoot a fun video for our

Cornerstone Youth Group. And so, of course, I'm from Texas. I lived in Mississippi for the last four years.

So I'm sure people are like, oh, you're not going to be ready for this cold this winter. It's been a hard winter. And so I thought, okay,

I'm going to be tough, and I'm going to be really American. And so basically what me and my wife did, she took a video of me, and I was in a

T -shirt, my cowboy hat, my American flag shorts and cowboy boots, and I had my

American flag, and I ran down the street and back. And so Ashton took a video of me.

Plus, one of the neighbors saw me, and they took a video outside their window, and they thought it was funny. So that's what we did, just to be patriotic and say, country boy can survive.

Oh, yeah. That's right. That's funny. So today we're talking about irresistible grace.

It's part two. If you missed last week, our last episode, you can pull that up and listen, as Ashton and I are just working through just pastorally and conversationally the topic of irresistible grace slash effectual calling.

If I were to say to you, the Bible says many are called, few are chosen. In light of this topic, what do you say about that verse?

Many are called, but few are chosen. So many are outwardly called by the outward preaching of the gospel.

We're called by God to preach the gospel to all nations. That's our goal.

But the reason why some will come and some will not come is that those who come are those who God has chosen, those who he's chosen before the foundation of the world, and he has given to his son to accomplish their salvation, for the spirit to apply that salvation to them.

So, again, the reason why that some people come, some don't, it's ultimately due to God's grace, that God's grace chooses.

He loves whom he loves. He has mercy on whom he has mercy, has compassion on whom he has compassion.

He, Roger Olson, says in his book, Against Calvinism, we want to be known for what we're for, not what we're against.

By the way, I always hated that slogan. We want to be known for what we're for, not what we're against. And I'm thinking, well, if you're for things, you're against things, right?

If you're for holiness, you're against sin. If you're for the exclusivity of Jesus' salvation, then you're against pluralism and inclusivity, right?

If you're against moral decay, that means you must be for something. But anyway, he said, quoting

Calvin, Roger Olson, quoting Calvin, when he,

God, first shines with the light of his word upon undeserving, he thereby shows a sufficiently clear proof of his free goodness.

Here, then, God's boundless goodness is already manifesting itself, but not to the salvation of all, for a heavier judgment remains upon the wicked because they reject the testimony of God's love.

And God also, to show forth his glory, withdraws the effectual working of his Spirit from them.

This inner call, then, is a pledge of salvation that cannot deceive us, but lest the flesh boast that it did at least answer him when he called and freely offered himself, he declares that it has no ears to hear, no eyes to see, unless he makes them.

Furthermore, he makes them not according to each person's gratefulness, but according to his election.

Now, that was Calvin in this book. Here's what Olson says, and then I want your comments, please. Here, Calvin clearly expresses monergism or irresistible grace.

God makes the elected sinner's ears to hear and eyes to see the gospel, and he withdraws that effectual working from the non -elect, the reprobate.

Did he get that right? Well, you know, you have to understand here that God's not forcing anyone to do anything, but he's renewing our nature.

So it's like we were made for God. He's just restoring us to what we ought to be. But the thing is, with sin,

God does not have to grant us that regenerating grace. So that's kind of what

I would say. We can't say God's forcing that. It's not only God's fault that some people don't come to faith.

Their fault is due to their sin. And don't you think, if we look at other examples in the Bible, when it comes to this topic of God's sovereign election,

God's sovereign grace, I keep thinking of John Gerstner, who would say, grace is always sovereign. It's a redundancy to say sovereign grace, but it's a blessed redundancy.

This idea that God's in charge. We go elsewhere to Scripture, and we think, okay, how many nations are there?

And whether that's the Moabites and the Philistines, the Amorites, the

Amalekites, Israel, how was Israel any better?

Does not Deuteronomy 7 say they weren't bigger, they weren't greater, they weren't better forestry people cutting down the cedars of Lebanon, they weren't better shipbuilders, they weren't better metal people?

No, no, it's because I love them. I set my love on them. And so can't we see illustrations like how

God loves Israel and not the other nations as an illustration of God's sovereign grace?

Exactly, that's right. Even the New Testament talks about how we've been chosen by God. That's alluding back to God's election of Israel.

That what happened before the foundation of the world, that's patterned in time with Israel. And to point forward to that, there was an

Israel of God before the foundation of the world that He had chosen, that He foreknew, and that He chose solely based upon His gracious love.

This is not Roger Olson, this is Eugene Peterson. I wanted to see what he said when it comes to 1

Peter 1, verse 3. The NAS would say that according to His great mercy,

He has caused us to be born again to a living hope to the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. We talked about that last episode.

I wonder what Eugene Peterson says. What a God we have and how fortunate we are to have

Him, the great God of fortune. Aren't we glad? This Father and our Master Jesus, because Jesus was raised from the dead, we've been given a brand new life and have everything to live for, including a future in heaven.

Okay. I know. Austin just looked at me like, okay, what about that? Yeah, so we have to figure out what kind of new life.

Is it just a new start? Are we going back to Adam's first position? But really the glory of regeneration is that we're given new creation life.

It's not just simply a fresh start, but new creation has dawned, and that's a glorious reality that we're a new creation in Christ because we participate in the resurrection life of Christ.

I'm sorry to do this to you, and this is off topic, but I'm going to quote from the message in the

Psalms, and you tell me what psalm this is. God, God, my God, why did you dump me miles from nowhere?

That sounds like Psalm 22. Why do you forsake me? What in the world are we doing?

This is bad. This calls for— It's a madhouse! It is a madhouse out there.

Austin, let's talk a little bit more about irresistible grace. What's the difference between irresistible grace and effectual call?

What nuances are we trying to tease out when we use those different descriptors for what's going on here?

Well, you know, irresistible grace and effectual calling, so irresistible grace is more of a recent,

I guess, labeling. Tulip is—it's not like the Synod of the Dort said, like, this is tulip.

But really it's more of a—I believe it's a 19th century categorization by a historian, just kind of categorizing what the candidate was.

Because really the original form of the canons was ultip. The first head doctrine was about unconditional election.

Second head was about limited atonement. But also the third and fourth was combining total depravity and irresistible grace in one little section.

And finally it was about perseverance. But irresistible grace and effectual calling, they can be very interchangeable, if you'd like.

Because really effectual calling really is that act of the Spirit to renew and enable and bring our will to faith in Christ.

And that calling, that—not a general call that says to believe, but that effectual call where the Spirit of God is regenerating, that will be irresistible because the person is a creature.

And when God works on a creature in a supernatural way, in a powerful way, there will be changes and then that person will respond with faith and the rest.

Exactly. And maybe think about like how this—in one way we can think, oh, this chocolate cake was irresistible.

It's delightful. But maybe that's more of an outward thing, but more of an inward thing is like God causes our will to desire

His grace. In this book he has some fascinating things,

Roger Olson does. Monergism, evangelical synergism, he makes the comparison.

Evangelical synergism, according to the author, says that God comes along and throws a rope down and yells, grab onto it and pull and together we'll get you out.

So there's people lying and wounded and they're at the bottom of this pit.

Grab onto it. Nobody moves. They're too wounded. In fact, for all practical purposes, they are dead, quote -unquote, because they're utterly helpless.

So God pours water into the pit and yells, relax and let the water lift you out.

In other words, float. All a person in the pit has to do to be rescued is let the water lift him or her up out of the pit.

It takes a decision, not an effort. The water, of course, is prevenient grace.

I've never heard anything so dumb. Float! Roger Olson, he's putting this illustration to,

I guess, reject semi -Pelagianism. What does the semi -Pelagianism one say? It says that God comes along and throws a rope down to the bottom of the pit and waits for a person to start pulling on it.

Once he does, God responds by yelling, grab it tight and wrap it around yourself.

Together we'll get you out. The problem is the person is too hurt to do that. The rope is too weak and God is too good to wait for the person to initiate the process.

Right. So, you know, Roger Olson, he wants to avoid the heresy of semi -Pelagianism.

But really, the difference between the two illustrations he gives is really a matter of degree. Like the person in the evangelical synergism, he's still alive.

Like he still can do something. He says he's practically dead, but he still has some consciousness.

So, really, he's still doing something to bring him to, I guess, to be saved by God, the helper here.

So, really, the difference is not a matter of quality, but of degree. So, the illustration really fails in that way. And plus, we can kind of take umbrage with even the first one where it says, well,

God's too good to allow that to happen. Well, it seemed like you were saying,

Mike, what would follow seemed to be more of a universalistic view of that. If God's too good to allow them to stay there, then isn't he just going to do that to everybody?

That's right. But maybe then you get to the original grace where the water causing the person to float up. It's like not all people float.

I definitely don't float in water. And if you're injured, especially if you're brutally injured, how do you float?

That requires some core strength. It's just I don't really see how that actually works.

It's confusing. It's just not great. What does Olson say about monergism?

That is alone working. Erg is work and mono is alone. God alone working.

Here's what he says, quote, Monergism says God comes along, throws a rope down into the pit, climbs down it, wrapping it around some of the people, and then goes back out of the pit and pulls them to safety without any cooperation.

The problem is that the God of Jesus Christ is too good and loving to rescue only some of the helpless people.

Yeah. The reason is more universalism, it seems. That would lead to universalism. Mike, we have to stay with the illustrations the

Bible gives us, especially as we talk about the Valley of Dry Bones. That's a great illustration for effectual calling, for irresistible grace, the

Holy Spirit. Because these Valley of Dry Bones, they're just skeletons, all scattered about.

But when God puts a spirit upon them, he gives them life. He calls them to live and actually live, not just be a robot or a block of wood, but they're actually living.

So Roger Olson, he really gets irresistible grace wrong because, like, no, we actually believe in Christ.

We're not just some sort of block of wood or a robot. But God causes us, he brings, he works faith into our hearts.

He renews our nature so that we do believe in the gospel, that we do actually grasp hold of Christ.

So it's not like God's just doing, you know, he's working apart from nature. No, God's working to restore and perfect nature.

Talking about irresistible grace today on No Compromise Radio with Austin Hobbs and yours truly.

People often go to Matthew 23. Jesus is lamenting over Jerusalem and with the double

Jerusalem says, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who killed the prophets and stoned those who sent to you, how often

I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. And you were not willing.

Look, your house is left to be desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, blessed is he who comes in the name of the

Lord. I have my view of that, Austin. I haven't asked you yours, but what's your take on that? Yeah, so I think it kind of runs parallel to other passages we see in the

New Testament, especially from Paul. I think in First Timothy, when he's talking to Timothy to make supplication prayers for all people, because God desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.

Maybe I think either first or second Peter, it says like, God does not wish that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

So it's actually interesting. Mike actually asked our youth group that like, hey, does God desire all people to be saved?

And our group, they're very committed to Calvinist. They're very convinced Calvinist. And so like, no,

I don't think it says that. Well, actually, the Bible does have that language. And so now is that rejecting the concept of unconditional election, irresistible grace?

And I would say, no, it's not. There are two different concepts that are working right there. I think when we talk about unconditional election or irresistible grace, we're talking about God's redemptive love, his distinct love for the elect.

But also there's a sense that in which God has a creational love, that he loves all of his creatures who are made in his image because he loves what he has created.

He's a good God. So he desires the good of all creatures. And the good of all creatures ultimately is

Christ. The good of humanity is not to remain dead in sin, but to trust in the gospel.

However, God, it's a distinct love. Like God's creational love is different from his elective, redemptive love for his people.

You mean to tell me when I look at you and say, I love you, and I look at Kim and I say, I love you, there's differences?

There's differences, yeah. We talked about that in Cornerstone. We actually brought the example of how

God loves his bride, the church. So what if I said, oh, what if I can just love any other woman?

Can I make any other woman my bride? But there's different loves. So there's a distinct love that God has to elect his people, for Christ to die for that people, and for him to regenerate that people.

So there's different order of loves, essentially. That's certainly true. I even think of the rich young ruler, and Mark, I believe, the

NAS says, and Jesus felt a love for him as the guy walks off. But the text is

Jesus loved him. And some have even thought because of that, he then later, the rich young ruler, got saved.

Because if God loves you, it has to be a redeeming love. And so one of the things that we would talk about is in hyper -Calvinism, hyper -Calvinism is not somebody that's more

Calvinistic than you are. Historically speaking, it contains things like there is no evangelism because God saves, there's no prayer because God does what he wants, and there's no love of God to the non -elect.

There is a love of God to the non -elect, but it's not, as you said, Austin, a redeeming love, a husband to the wife, his bride love.

It's more of a creative love. When I look at Matthew 23, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, I think he's talking about the leaders there.

I don't think he's talking about the people in Jerusalem. Jerusalem personified, it would be the leaders.

You who killed the prophets, stoned those who sent to you. How often have I longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you leaders were not willing.

It was the leaders who were not willing. This has nothing to do with a contradiction of irresistible grace.

This is Jesus lamenting the leaders that he would excoriate earlier and later for trying to prevent, humanly speaking, people coming to faith in the

Messiah. Right, and that's very important. I wanted our kids to know that we have to read the Bible on its own terms, because we can't build our theology based upon one verse.

What if we get that verse wrong? So we have to understand, what does this mean in context? What is the author trying to communicate here?

We can't just impose our modern understandings onto the text, essentially. Mike Gabendroth, Austin Hobbs, Irresistible Grace.

What were some of the questions that Cornerstone asked regarding this after you taught it, or what were some of the things that they wanted fleshed out a little bit more?

Right, right. Basically, we addressed some misconceptions, and even some more positive arguments for Arminianism.

One question was, well, doesn't the Bible say we can resist the Holy Spirit? And so, basically, some people are saying, no, the

Bible never says that. A lot of our convinced Calvinists in the group, but some thought, well, what about Acts 7, verse 51?

And this is where Stephen's giving this big sermon to the unbelieving Jews about how they rejected the prophets, and how he says they were stubborn in heart, or they were stiff -necked, stubborn in heart, and he says, you always resist the

Holy Spirit, as your fathers did also. So, Mike, it just seems, it's clear -cut,

Mike. The doctrine of Irresistible Grace is false. The Spirit is resistible, right? We should just pack up and go home, not write any more books about it.

But really, I wanted to tell the kids, we have to understand what this means in context, because as we talked about in Ezekiel 36 and 37, the effectual work of the

Spirit is essential for Israel coming to faith in Christ, and to walk in His commandments, and obeying His will.

So, does Stephen contradict the prophet Ezekiel? Are we going to say that?

No, no. So, they're talking about two different concepts. And basically, how to explain that is that they rejected, so basically, the apostles had been given the

Spirit that, of course, Christ was anointed with, to continue the ministry of Christ on earth. So, it's really to reject the ministry of the gospel.

And we kind of see that all throughout history. Even in Stephen's sermon, especially with Moses, he was given the Spirit, and the people were rejecting him.

So, it's to reject the Spirit -appointed leaders or ministry of God.

Just as they rejected Moses, who had the Spirit, they rejected Jesus, who had the Spirit, now they're rejecting

His apostles. So, it's really to reject the ministry of Spirit, continuing the ministry of Christ on earth.

So, it's more about the outward call of the gospel, I would say, they're rejecting there. Spurgeon said, He has a power whereby

He can change your mind, make you think differently from your former thoughts, and turn you from the error of your ways.

That's in a little section here from Spurgeon's quotes, under irresistible grace. He also says,

If God should please, the Holy Spirit could at this moment make every one of you fall on your knees, confess your sins, and turn to God.

He is an almighty Spirit, able to do wonders. Wow. I mean, if you're going to deny irresistible grace, of course, we talked about universalism is down the way, but also, what does that say about God's power, and limiting

God's power, or being able to say no to God? What's the difference between that and people that say word -faith stuff, and my words are powerful, and they're containers of power, and I speak it into existence?

It seems like it's almost of the same vein to me. I have the

Spurgeon book here in front of me with these quotes. I'll give you another one. I believe that Christ came into the world not to put men into a savable state, but into a saved state.

Not to put them where they could save themselves, but to do the work in them and for them from first to last.

If I did not believe that there was might going forth with the divine word of Jesus, which makes men willing, and which turns them from the error of their ways by the mighty, constraining force of a divine influence,

I should cease to glory in the cross of Christ. Wow. In my mind, this is not some debate where we think, you know what, it's not a bad option, right?

Okay, you're a historic premill, amill. All right, I see how you waver back and forth.

You alt -tab throughout the day. But this is a big deal when you deny irresistible grace.

Why do you think it's such a big deal? Why is this so important that people should embrace this, or who knows where they're going to end up?

Oh, right, right, for sure. And this is something I wanted to hit home for our kids who may be unconvinced.

It's like, hey, if you can resist the Spirit at the beginning, you can resist the Spirit in the end. Because the Arminians are just deadly logically consistent because they believe you can fall away from the grace of salvation, that you can resist the

Spirit enough that you just fall away into sin, unbelief, and that can just happen.

But we as Calvinists believe that God who began a good work in you will bring it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ.

The Spirit will keep you forever. The work of Christ will never be optional for you. But he has secured that salvation for you, and he has secured that because that was planned before the foundation of the world in election.

And not only that, Mike, I think, you know, it seems like a lot of Christians, we don't have a problem with the idea of glorification, how

God will, and ultimately glorification, God's going to fit our nature that will be permanently and perfectly righteous as Jesus is righteous.

Do we have a choice to be that, Mike? Would any Arminian say that? But honestly,

Mike, William Lane Craig says that in the new creation, the reason why we won't sin or have unbelief is because the glory of God will be so bright and wonderful that we can do nothing but choose it.

No transformation of nature, no perfection of nature, it's just obvious that we should do this.

So I think that's a major problem that's just outside the bounds of Christian orthodoxy. So we have to understand the same grace that regenerated you will also be the same grace that glorifies you because regeneration, that's the already of new creation life.

Glorification is the not yet of new creation life. So in your regeneration, new creation life has dawned.

And once you're glorified, that's new creation, the full, I guess, noonday, the whole that's fully come.

So that's the difference between the inauguration of the age to come and your regeneration and the consummation of the age to come and your glorification.

It's all the work of the Spirit to fit your nature for new creation life. It seems to me,

Austin, that as we talked last show, this revolves around autonomy. We will serve no sovereign here as the revolutionary folks said here in New England and Massachusetts.

And this is autonomous free will. We'll do what we want.

We're the arbitrator. We make the decisions. And somehow if we have less than a quote -unquote their definition of free will, then we can't be fully human.

Doesn't seem like that's part of this. Yeah, it definitely is. Like this idea that your will can stand above your nature and decide and determine who you are.

You're the self -ruler of your life. You determine your human nature. Our will is within our nature.

Like to be human is to have an intellect and will. So you can't escape your nature. So you're going to choose according to your nature.

And since we're fallen to sin and to a corrupt nature, we will choose corrupt things. But once we're in a regenerate or new creation nature, we choose things in accord with the new creation.

It's just that right now, Mike, there's an overlap between the present evil age and the age to come. This new creation has dawned this present darkness, the present evil age, but it's not fully here.

So that's what Paul will talk about, this warfare between the spirit and the flesh. That will be a reality on this side of glory.

But once we go to heaven, our souls will be perfectly, you know, are perfectly renewed, perfected.

And once Christ comes again to give us our glorified bodies, then we'll be, of course, we'll experience perfect holiness, of course, in heaven, but also in the new creation, new earth forever.

As you were talking, it made me think. Tell an unbeliever to become what you're not.

Be who you aren't. How could they do that in their own nature, right? Nature and will always link together.

Well, thanks for being on the show again today, Austin. We had some fun just sitting down. I appreciate that I say to you,

Hey, what are you doing the next hour? Why? Well, sit down and let's do a radio show or two.

So thanks a lot for your ministry here at Bethlehem Bible Church. If you live in the area and you've got a high school student and they don't have a youth group to go to,