Women's roles in the church

The Church as Christ’s Bride and the Problem of Cultural Influence

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, "'But we did not yield in subjection to them "'for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel "'would remain with you.'".

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

We're here to take your calls as well. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.

Welcome to No Compromise Radio ministry. My name is Mike Abendroth, and I'm live in the studio today with Pastor Steve Cooley. Steve, welcome. Well said, thank you very much, sir. I just opened up my Bible and randomly put my finger down, true, and it came to Proverbs 31, 17.

She girds herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

That's one of my favorite Bible study methods. You know, I love biceps. I love triceps. I was just getting at opening the Bible and plunking your finger down. Yeah, yeah, I'll just try it again.

Since it's Tuesday, here we go. Blessed be the Lord, the God of our fathers, who has put such thing as this in the King's heart to adorn the house of the Lord, which is in Jerusalem. That's a great verse.

It is a great verse. I believe that verse. And so today on No Compromise Radio ministry, we thought we would just open the Bible randomly, read verses, and string them all together. Now let's just try another one, okay.

Now it came about as she continued praying before the Lord that Eli was watching her mouth. What is that, imposter nudics? What are we doing today? Well, Tuesdays happens to be the day where we tend to laugh a lot, that's true, but we want to deal with issues in the local church.

And so here at No Compromise Radio ministry, we want to talk about church life. No other organism, institution, organization has Jesus promised so to bless. And so since he said he will build his church and the gates of death cannot stop it, we love to talk about the church.

I love Christ, but I love to talk about his bride.

And if you don't love the church, there's something wrong with your thinking.

Legalism, Pragmatism, and the Influence of the World

Absolutely, so today we're in a series continuing on the theme of legalism. And so Steve, what have we done so far? Where are we today and where are we going? Do you have a compass?

We've done a lot, too much to really recap. So let me go really quick. It is a sin to drink alcohol, no it's not. It is a sin to go to the movies, well known, maybe not. It is a sin to get a tattoo, probably not.

It is a sin to use any tobacco product, you make the call. It is a sin to have cable TV. It is a sin to send your children to public schools. It is a sin to use birth control. It is a sin to put out or give out candy on Halloween or let your kids trick-or-treat.

Yeah, just leave it on the porch, that's pretty pretty. Let me interrupt just for a second.

My kids went out this year for the first time on Halloween night and they dressed up like Christian martyrs straight out of the book, Fox's Book of Martyrs. And so one of my children was Justin Martyr, who was murdered for his faith, martyred for his faith.

Another was Ann Askew, and the other one was somebody, a Lady Jane Gray, and they had all kinds of blood on their neck, hatchets. Kim dressed them all up, it was perfect. And then they said, trick-or-truth, and then they said, we were martyred for our faith.

They went door-to-door in West Boylston. And then they had a little tract from the Fox's Book of Martyrs that talked about the sin of the mass and all kinds of other things and how they were killed for their faith.

And it was truth, trick-or-truth, and they really had a great time. So see, we're redeeming Halloween.

Did they get any candy or just get assaulted?

One lady said, no, we have those at our church, we don't want those handouts, we won't take it. And then, here's what else they handed out. They handed out no-compromise radio bumper stickers. Very nice.

Almost every one of the people took it. Yeah. So truth, trick-or-truth, and dress up like Fox's Book of Martyrs.

Gonna be taking over West Boylston one house at a time. That's right. So what else? We talked about it's a sin to vote for a Democrat, and it is a sin to vote, oh, sorry, to listen to rock and roll or to vote for rock and roll, hip hop, rap, or heavy music, metal music.

Rock the vote. Yeah.

So what else is up today? By the way, if you're wondering what we're talking about, I'd suggest you go to nocompromiseradio .com and pull up all the podcasts. All 45 shows are up there. You can pull up the Legalism series and learn with Pastor Steve.

We like to be biblical, provocative, hilarious, and always in that order.

Always in that order, yes, absolutely. Well, today, in honor of the World Series, we decided to throw a knuckle curve in the dirt, and we're going to be diverting from our series, as it were, and talking about issues in the local church, but specifically the roles of men and women.

In the local church. That is a knuckleball, low and outside. Yes, it is. Why is there such a problem today when it comes to men and women in the church? I think even if we ask ourselves the question, Steve, has the culture influenced the church?

All this meterosexual, is that meterosexual? Metro. Meterosexual. I'm glad I don't know these words. All this kind of, you know, Calvin Klein, one cologne, et cetera, et cetera. There is a conscious effort to make women and men exactly equal, not just before God, and we would believe that they would be, but also in function, and so to what degree has the world influenced the church?

Let's start off with that.

It's had a huge influence. I mean, the issues that we talk about today are absolutely, I mean, they're just kind of imported from a worldly mindset. The world says this is the way things are, and the church has just said over the decades, last several decades, has just said, yeah, that's the way it is, and so they've reinterpreted scripture to match up with the prevailing wisdom,.

As it were, in the culture. Well, I think the church has, to your point, just said, well, culture, you drive and we'll follow. You're the engine, we're the caboose, and when I look at church history, there's not one church that I respect with the pastor and the elders behind that church or leading that church.

I don't respect any one of those who says, let's follow the culture.

Well, I mean, did Jesus say, upon this rock, I will build the culture? You know, I mean, it's foolishness.

Men and women, of course they're different. You look at their bodies, they're different. They have different hormones, they have different roles. Men and women are different. Now, what I'd like to say from the very get-go, and we always have to do this so we can be kind of politically correct, so no one blows some kind of proverbial gasket.

Galatians makes it clear in Galatians 3, verse 28, that men and women before Christ are equal. Men and women are both image bearers. Men and women are both saved from their sin by Christ alone as they trust in Christ's perfect work and resurrection.

Galatians 3 .28 says, there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Men and women before God are equal. But Steve, do they have different functions.

At home and in the local church? Well, absolutely, and you know, that verse is almost being taken to mean that, you know, the difference between the sexes has ceased to exist. But there are definitely different roles in the church.

Men are primarily in leadership positions within the church, within the home. I mean, this is what men are called to do, and they're called to do it, by the way, because of, all the way back to Genesis.

I mean, you have to trace it all back to Genesis, essentially, Adam was created first, and Eve as a helpmeet, a helper, an assistant.

When I was younger, I always wanted to know what that was. What's a helpmeet?

I always thought it was a meat. I think it has something to do with cooking, yeah. Yeah, she was a helpmeet.

Here's what happens. People become very pragmatic. They not only follow the culture, but they also follow pragmatism, and here's how pragmatism can flesh itself out in a local church. They say, well, you know, the men at this church, they're not leading, so we might as well lead as ladies.

Matter of fact, there are some ladies who are better Bible teachers at this church than some of the men are, and so that's what happens. I even had a lady once say to me years ago, at Bethlehem Bible Church, she said, I want to read the Scripture on a Sunday morning, and I said, well, according to 1 Timothy 2, you're not allowed to read Scripture on Sunday morning, and she said, well, I'm a better Scripture reader than you are, and I know how to enunciate and say all these things better, and I thought, well, you may do it better than I do, but God has said specifically in 1 Timothy 2 that you're not allowed to do it.

There's a major brouhaha in all that. Yeah, and a big stink, too. I'll never forget the day this particular lady, she said to me, I want to read Psalm 103 from the pulpit. I said, well, we went back and forth, back and forth, and I tried to get her involved in ministry and other things.

Finally, at the end of the day, I said, all right, you can read Psalm 103 from the pulpit on a Sunday morning worship service over my dead body. What am I going to do, just cave in? 1 Timothy 2 makes it clear.

Although men and women are different in, excuse me, men and women are the same before God as image bearers. They're both saved by Jesus Christ. Jesus died for men and for women. There's a different function, and here in 1 Timothy 2, where Paul says in a book on how to do local church, how a church should be run, I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

Why? Two reasons. Creation order, as Pastor Steve just said, for it was Adam who was first created and then Eve. So there's a difference. There's a functional difference. This is a pre-fall reason for women not to be preachers or teachers or reading public scripture.

And secondly, and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into transgression. Adam was not deceived. He knew well for sure what he was doing, but he wasn't deceived. It was Eve who was deceived.

So why at Bethlehem Bible Church do we not allow women to teach or exercise authority over men, but to remain quiet, one, creation, and two, deception?

And three, it's what the Bible says.

It's an amazing thing. We say this over and over on this radio show. We are people under the authority of a book under divine revelation. This book does not come from our own mystic kind of shaking and quaking and baking.

Shake and bake.

Let's have some shake and bake chicken tonight. That'd be good. Well, you know what, to go back to your other illustration where this woman was asserting that she was more gifted, well, you could argue, even here in 1 Timothy, you could argue, you'd have to go back to Genesis, that Eve was a better leader.

She took the initiative. Adam followed her, right? That didn't make it good, you know? She certainly led, though.

And that was the issue. Adam, he said, no, I'm not going to lead. I'll follow my wife. She went into sin, and I'll, matter of fact, even follow her into sin. And so if you're tuning in, this is WVNE 760 out of Worcester, but maybe you're listening on podcast as well, nocompromiseradio .com.

My name is Pastor Mike Ebendroth, and I'm here with Pastor Steve Cooley, and we have the privilege of pastoring Bethlehem Bible Church. By the way, there have been many No Compromise listeners who have attended on Sunday.

They only come for one Sunday, I never see them again, but they've been coming, some from even Springfield and places like that. And so if you don't have a Bible teaching church, we want to encourage you, find a Bible teaching church, and find a Bible teaching church that have men in leadership.

Biblical Church Leadership and the Meaning of Complementarianism

Well, I mean, again, if we just, as we journey through 1 Timothy, we're going to see that it is men who are intended to lead. That is, when Paul's writing Timothy and giving him a mission statement to fight against false teachers, but then instructing him how the church is to function, he makes it very clear that it is the men who are to be in leadership of the church.

Well, you see that right in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 regarding elders, an overseer then must be above reproach, the wife of one husband. Oh, sorry, I got that wrong. The husband of one wife. And these continue down into verse five, but if a woman does not know how to manage her own household, how will she take care of the church of God?

Well, that doesn't say that either, but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God? And so you have churches today. There's two movements. Here's two classifications.

One is egalitarianism, and that says that women and men are equal before Christ and equal in function. They can do everything. And so you have Gordon Conwell as an egalitarian seminary, for instance. Many churches are.

And then you have someone else who is more on the opposite side, like Grudem and Piper, who've written a wonderful book on biblical masculinity. They're not egalitarian. They are complementarian. What's a complementarian, Steve?

It just means, simply put, that men and women have different roles. That, as you said, we're all equal in Christ, but that equal does not mean do the same thing. For example, are God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit equal?

Yes. Do they have different roles? Yes. Do we ever see in scripture, it say that the Father submits to the Son? The Father submits to the Spirit. The Son submits to the Spirit? No, because they have different roles, the same principle.

And by the way, since we're talking about, let me ask you a question, Pastor Mike, since you always get to ask me the questions. I like it the other way around. Would you say that 1 Timothy was written specifically to address issues at the church at Ephesus, and it does not apply to us today?

In other words, that 1 Timothy 2 would not have applicability to the broad range of churches across the world today. Good question.

Here's what people do. 1 Timothy 2 is clear. It is crystal clear. The Greek is clear. The Septuagint has nothing to do with the New Testament, but if it did, it would be clear. It sounds very academic, though.

Congratulations. The pseudepigraph says very bluntly and with clarity. The text is so clear that here's what people have to do. Like Gordon Fee, for instance, in his commentary on 1 Timothy, that this particular book, 1 Timothy, was written to Timothy at Ephesus, and so it doesn't apply outside of Ephesus, outside the first century.

They don't take it with some kind of transchronological approach, but it's so clear, we know that that's a very unwise thing to do, and Steve, earlier you were talking about the Godhead submitting. Submission does not mean inferiority.

That's right. Oh, I guess some places it could mean that, and some slavery or something perceived from the master's perception, whatever, but in this particular case, when I look at 1 Corinthians 11 specifically, we understand that God is the head of Christ, and Christ is the head of every man, and man is the head of woman, and so women are not inferior to men because Christ is not inferior to the Father, and so it is nice to be able to realize that we can have different functions in the world and not be inferior.

When you go to work today and submit to your boss, he's not better. He's not a better image bearer. Even if he's a Christian, he's not better than you. He just has a certain God-ordained role.

Well, and again, just to dispel that kind of idea, this is not written to Timothy to just tell him how to run one specific church. This is a blueprint. Titus is a blueprint. These are timeless principles that the Spirit of God, through the Apostle Paul, has given to churches, even today, so they might run according to what Christ would design for them.

Good, Titus 1, verse 5. For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you. Not just Ephesus. This has to go with, this has to do with all these other cities that are around, and so you cannot say with a good conscience, oh, well, I'm doing what the culture says.

I do what pragmatism says. I don't think this book is written for churches today. This is just nonsense. People are caving in to men and women's roles, and they cave in so fast. And here's one of my biggest pet peeves, Steve, and you know this.

Here's how it manifests itself in women's leadership at home, as the husbands just tank. By the way, we used to tell men at the Bible study, remember, Steve, back in Los Angeles, either lead or be led.

That's it. And so if you're a husband, and maybe you don't even know as much of the Bible as your wife does, but if you're a husband, you will be led if you don't lead. So how about this? What about saying, I'm going to pick a church as long as my wife likes it and she agrees?

Now on the outset, that might sound okay. Pray with your wife about the church, visit together, get her input. It would be lording over if you didn't. But at the end of the day, if you think that's the church that proclaims God's word, that teaches exposition, that shows the glory of Christ, has a high view of worship and a high view of God, and you think it's better, even though there's no youth group, and even though there's no ladies quilting bee Oprah study, and your wife says, no, I don't want to go there.

I'd rather go to Rock and Roll Central Coffee House, Feel Good Church, and my kids are liking that too. There is a major, major problem. You are the leader of the household, man, and you need to make the decision.

Husbands Must Lead in Choosing a Bible-Teaching Church

Well, and you know, this doesn't, I'm gonna broaden this a little bit, because this is so indicative of kind of the passivity of American men, and it's been translated into the Christian home, where the guy thinks that his role is basically to control the TV channel selection.

And it is so, you know, she runs everything. She makes the financial decisions. She takes the kids to the PTA meetings. She is in charge, and so naturally she chooses the church. It's just wrong. Guys, if you want to know why things aren't running smoothly in your home, why your kids are out of control, you know, why your wife seems to be running everything, it's because you've let her run everything.

Well, it's so true, and here's what happens. I'm married, Steve's married. We understand what it's like to be married to godly ladies, although less than perfect. If you have to make a decision as a man.

Speak for yourself, Mike. If you have to make a decision as a man, and your wife disagrees after counsel, after wisdom, after time, after input, but you believe you have to make that decision as a leader, you can't cave in and let her lead and make the decision.

Be willing to put up with a day, two, three, four days of maybe some friction, maybe some backwash a little bit, some backbiting, who knows what could come down the pike, but at the end of the day, your wife will then submit and she will respect you more for standing up saying, this is the way we have to go.

Just recently within the last couple months, somebody came to the church, the guy loved it, the wife didn't like it, and guess who's here and who's not here? And they're not here because the wife was the leader.

And we've seen that time after time,.

And I'm not going to boast here, but when Jenna and I first got saved, she had kind of a charismatic background. I mean, as much as she had any kind of background. And I had my unbelieving pagan background and I had attended a church different from the one she had.

And so when we decided what church we were going to go to, she submitted even though she maybe didn't like it in the beginning. So really the credit goes to her. And as time went on, she started to see the errors that she had been taught previously and valued going to a church where the Bible was taught.

That's beautiful. And I know that relationship that you and Janet have, and that's the way it should go. And by the way, for those out there who are listening and you're a wife and you say, we're going to the church that my husband picked and I wouldn't pick it, but I'm going to just submit to the Lord by submitting to my husband.

I say, wonderful job, good job. And if you're a man and you're saying to your wife, you know, honey, you might not like this church, but this is good for our soul. I'm the leader and I've got to put my foot down and this is my decision, good for you.

But if it's switched around and you're letting your wife choose the church because of the women's ministry and the youth ministry and the Bible preaching isn't very good, then today's the day that you buckle up, go home, love your wife with all kinds of different ways and then say, honey, I have not led like I should have led.

Would you please forgive me for my lack of leadership? And by the way, the number one reason to pick a local church is the verse-by-verse exposition of God's holy word. Nothing else is needed. They didn't even have youth groups 200 years ago, 500 years ago, 2000 years ago.

We don't need a church for a youth group and for a social network and for friends. We need a church that has Jesus Christ proclaimed there. If Jesus isn't enough, nothing's enough. This is the church for us.

Preaching the Word, Not Entertainment, Is the Priority of the Church

Yeah, and this goes back to one of our first shows. I mean, the imperative for a pastor, for the leadership in a local church is to preach the word. Not to entertain the folks, not to provide the best possible Awana program, although I think we do have a good Awana program.

These, ultimately, every other issue, whether it be music, all the other things that we've talked about, what has to top the list is exactly what you're saying. Preaching, and I was so encouraged last night, I talked to somebody I hadn't talked to for several months and he'd been at a kind of a mainline Protestant church months ago when I talked to him.

And I talked to him last night and he said that they were going to a church and he started describing it and it sounded a lot like ours. And I said, where's the pastor now? What's he teaching? And he goes, he's working right through First Timothy.

And I'm going, I think you're in the right place.

That's a good way to see if you're at a good church or not. Does the pastor do faithful exposition? The days are short. The world's gonna come to an end someday soon. We're one day closer to all that.

And so wouldn't it be good if you're listening to say, it's time to stop playing around. It's time to stop being focused on the Red Sox and the Patriots and all these other things that guys get bogged down into.

And it's just time to lead my family. Sit down with your family and say, I am gonna lead this family. I'm sorry, it's a shock to your system now because I haven't been leading, but today is the day. I'm pretty much tired of men who follow women.

And we love our wives. I'm not saying Kim doesn't have any good ideas, but I'm just saying men need to lead.

Yeah, I mean, I would tell you, and I've said this on many occasions, my wife is the best person I know, but that doesn't mean she's the leader. Now, let me ask you one more question. I think we have like 30 seconds for you to answer this.

Suppose somebody is listening today and they're at a church where the female pastor is gonna get up this Sunday and give a sermon. What should they do?

If you've got a female pastor, you're not at a real church and you need to leave today. There's no such thing as a female pastor. It's kind of like grape nuts. They're not grapes and they're not nuts.

Well, they might be females. Well, yeah, pastorettes, elderinas. You wanna be careful. You wanna run from that church and say, I'm gonna go with what the Bible says. First Timothy chapter two, Titus chapter one.

This is No Compromise Radio Ministry. My name is Mike Abendroth.

And I'm Steve Cooley. God bless you. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life transforming power of God's word through verse by verse exposition of the sacred text.

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at six. We're right on route 110 in West Boylston. You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.

The thoughts and opinions expressed on No Compromise Radio do not necessarily reflect those of WVNE, its staff or management.