Rome and Islam: A Glaring Example of Why Rome's Claims Fail

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We looked in-depth today at the continuing discussion "do Christians and Muslims worship the same God?" This time we likewise looked at what modern Romanism teaches concerning salvation of those in non-Christian religions, and how all of this utterly undercuts Rome's authority claims. The last few minutes we responded to David Allen's continued refusal to defend his published works in public debate.

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Well greetings and welcome to the Dividing Line. My name is James White and we are coming to you from the mobile command unit which is not actually going anywhere at the moment and we have her set up to be loaded and Testing equipment and stuff like that.
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I head out on Saturday on Our next journey which will take me back to Conway, Arkansas to teach apologetics at Grace Bible Theological Seminary Then on the way back we're gonna be going through Southwestern Colorado and we've got all the stuff on the website, even though we're having website problems right now.
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So If you go to it, just be patient. It may time out on you. Try it again.
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It'll eventually Probably pop up and do its thing for you. I hope Well, we've got all the information there on the sort of mini conference.
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We're doing the following Saturday And what we're gonna be talking about stuff like that So it is warm in here
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Because it's warm here in Phoenix Yeah, it takes a while for stuff to catch up with the
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Heat and we don't have any shade here where we're sitting right now so the
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Sun's just blasting us and the little AC units are are running their little fingers off trying to Fan me and keep me cool at the moment
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But it's good enough to to get through and We're we're thinking about trying to upgrade the at least a couple of the
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AC units later on the year. Maybe to see if we can Avoid some of this.
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It's what is it about? That that thermometer next to you is always way way way high
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Because it's out. It's right next to the window. What does it say? 93 yes, it's it's probably about 89.
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I would I Think about 89 degrees or so in here with humidity
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Yes, believe it or not The it's a dry heat Isn't the case anymore?
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I think the dew point was over 70 degrees this morning. We did get rain last night And the monsoon has started here in Phoenix.
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That doesn't mean it just keeps going all the time And there's been a few years. It's done something like this and then
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Left and never came back again. We we need the monsoon Rain, even though it does make
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July August and September first two weeks of September by the second week of September It goes away.
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It's wonderful. But anyway, so here we are some really important stuff to talk about today I'll be honest with you.
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I Do not recall a situation Where Well, first of all, it's it's a situation that involves two of the religious movements that I've done the most extensive
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Interaction with study on writing on debating on and that is Roman Catholicism and Islam Normally, they're not
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Really the you know together in a discussion but they are right now because As you know over the past couple of weeks there has been extensive discussion online as to whether Christians worship the same
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God as Muslims and over the years we have Talked about the
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Universal Catholic Catechism Lumen Gentium various Official statements will be looking at you here a few minutes
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That talk about how Roman Catholics adore the one true God along with Muslims and That the plan of salvation includes the
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Muslims, what does that mean? Well Depends on what
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Roman Catholic you talk to depends on who's Pope depends on who's the head of the
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Congregation for the faith and all the rest that kind of stuff and that's part of what's important here but It's it's been amazing to not only hear the
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Roman Catholic argumentation seeking to establish the idea that We do worship the same
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God But it's also been fascinating to see the response of Roman Catholics in other words we're gonna be looking at a video and When you look at the comments on the video
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Primarily from Roman Catholics all the vaunted unity
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That having the infallible Pope supposedly provides Disappears real quickly it it doesn't hang around and You have
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Roman Catholics Plainly saying that the Roman Catholic who is saying that according to Rome a
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Muslim or others and other religions and that really seems hot to me rich. I don't know about you It's it's it's all the way up to the zero and stuff on the on the volume
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Is that this one here Well Yeah, that seemed to make a little bit of does good anyway, we're just checking things out here that the statement that Muslims and others can be saved by the work of the
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Holy Spirit from the good in other religions Now I can't tell you how many times
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I've had Roman Catholics tell me that I was going to hell because I was not part of the
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Roman Catholic Church because I Don't pray to Mary don't believe that to Mary should be
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Venerated given hyperdulia or in reality worshipped as she so obviously is than Roman Catholicism so How do you so?
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me the Trinitarian Bible -believing Christians going to hell, but the
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Muslim Following the Hadith and Going on Hajj is going to heaven is a little confusing for a lot of folks and then of course
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Historically going all the way back to Cyprian you have the phraseology Outside the church there is our salvation extra
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Ecclesium nulla solace and Obviously that's been understood in different ways and that requires you to define the church that requires you to Address issues of who is a part of the church who isn't a part of the church
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How do you become a part of the church, but then you have? After obvious reality that we have been discussing of late
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Of late as in over the past couple of years You have the Crusades You you have
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Popes Granting Plenary indulgences literally promising people heaven for hacking the heads off Muslims for killing the infidel for freeing the
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Holy Land from the infidel and They weren't talking about the good in Islam it's
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Pretty obvious to me that for long periods of time the leaders the
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Roman Catholic Church didn't really even have much in the way of a serious knowledge of Islam its history its development
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What tauheed means what shirk is? The vast majority of The Roman Catholic prelates that address the subject our own
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Catholicism had never read Bukhari or Muslim the collections of Sunni hadith and No knowledge of any of this stuff at all
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So it's not any stretch of the imagination at all to recognize that if Roman Catholics, I keep using the term year 1600 because it's
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It's just after the Council of Trent you have that establishment of medieval
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Catholic theology in opposition to the Reformation and So I use that year as a nice round number because remember
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I said if if Pope Francis Had been transported back to the year 1600 and he taught the things that he taught now
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In in his life, he would have been burned as a heretic and It seems very very clear to me that if you were to take modern
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Roman Catholic prelates Who are repeating? the perspective on Islam and This understanding of extra
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Ecclesium Noah solace outside the church there's a salvation in the broadest possible way the broadest possible way
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So that you can and we're going to hear a Catholic apologist saying that in some mysterious sense
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Muslims are joined to the church By seeking the good in their own religion,
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I'd like to know what that good is and given that Islam comes about after Christianity the founder of Islam has great ignorance of both
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Christianity and Judaism knows more about Judaism than he knows about Christianity But it comes after an attempts to make the argument that It is a continuation of God's revelation
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Both in the Torah and In the Injil the gospel.
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This is the argument of Surat Al -Maidah Surah 5 in the Quran that Allah sent down Natsal the
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Torah to Moses He sent down the Injil to Jesus Jesus confirms the
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Torah He's given the Injil Moses comes along. He confirms the
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Torah and the Injil To him is given the Quran So there is this chain there is this this connection and so This is the claim of the
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Quranic material but How much did the author of the Quran actually understand the
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New Testament? How much did you have access to? During the lifetime of Muhammad there would only be small sections that would be available in Arabic Privately translated the entirety of the
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New Testament doesn't come along till after Muhammad has died And then the whole
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Bible again would not have been It would not have been available to him and of course
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Muslim to say that Muhammad was illiterate anyways, which is questionable but the point is
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You have very little in the Quran to give us any reason for believing that The author of the
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Quran Had significant exposure to and knowledge of out of the
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Old or New Testament and so what you do get as a result are things such as the semi -credal statement in Surah Tal Iqlas, Surah 112
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Specifically ayah 3 there are only four ayahs Lem yell at while I'm Yulid Allah after saying that he is unique He is the one and only it says that he beget if not nor is he begotten and it is painfully clear that the background of those words is a denial of At least what the author understood to be the
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Christian faith Of the idea of begettal the only begotten
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Son That concept from Christianity and a number of years ago
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I took a Seminary class that I was teaching to the mosque in Tempe and in talking with the imam afterwards.
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I specifically asked him if he felt that the phraseology lem yell at while I'm Yulid in Surah 112 ayah 3 was in fact a
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Response to Christianity and said oh undoubtedly if it was Again, you'll you'll get some people who will dispute that especially
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In Western context, but I think in the vast majority of the Muslim world that would be a given
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But you also end up with stuff like at the end of surat al -maida surah 5 surah 5 116
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The only place where three where the Quran keeps saying do not say three
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It is better for you This is this is excess. The three are listed in surah 5 116.
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It's Allah Mary and Jesus and And This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of Christian theology on the part of the author of the
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Quran and So the point is that Islam comes
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After not only not only the advent of Christianity But given that Muhammad by tradition dies in 632.
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It's half a millennium After Not only that the birth
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Ministry death by resurrection of Christ, but it's coming centuries after the establishment of Christian orthodoxy
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So it's long after the Council of Nicaea, it's it's long after the Council of caliphate and So When Islam Rejects the
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Christian formulation of God, it's not out of ignorance. It is specifically seeking to differentiate
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Islam and Allah there's something else too and I Already what
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I've told you right now is far beyond what you're hearing from the vast majority of Roman Catholics address these issues
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It's not that there are not Roman Catholics who do not understand Islam. There are obviously But the one that the people who are addressing these issues
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Very often are We're gonna we're gonna look at a couple that are pretty sharp but a lot of people
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Most Roman Catholics are ignorant of Islam and most Muslims are ignorant Roman Catholicism. So There's a lot of talking past one another even when there's dialogue
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But for those of us outside of both those categories it's really interesting to watch how often people miss what was being said and So When Roman Catholics then
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Read magisterial statements In regards to Islam they often, you know, they're completely dependent upon those magisterial statements
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Being factually true and grounded and That's not something that I can assume at all and You shouldn't either for that matter
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So two things I want to want to focus in on here. First of all There was a
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I Was gonna pull this up Where to go there it is
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I was gonna pull this up on the last dividing line, but I could not find it and thankfully
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I Was reading through some other stuff and someone else's screenshot of it. And so I was able to grab it
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Peter D Williams I have to if you include the unbelievable broadcast
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I've debated him three times formally two times One on the Marian dogmas and one on indulgences.
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You've got it. Peter D Williams is without a doubt while the sharpest Roman Catholic apologists that I've ever encountered.
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He's He's really nice guy He's very sharp. He does his homework. It's what that's what
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I appreciate You know when when he and I debated Indulgences in Northern Ireland in Belfast Northern Ireland still he knows 2017
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That still is an amazing thing to me That we are able to have that kind of debate in Belfast or that if you know anything about the troubles
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You know anything about the 1970s in Northern Ireland, you know That kind of thing could not have happened without everybody getting blown up in the process and so That's still a very very very memorable night for me that particular encounter, but we had also debated on the
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Marian dogmas at the at a Newman Center in London as I recall
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So all of our encounters have been overseas Point being Peter D Williams is a bright guy.
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I have a lot of respect for him and As I said, he does his homework when we first and our first encounter was on unbelievable with Justin Briarley He had he knew what
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I believe. In fact, I gave him a real advantage because I didn't know who he was So he is not like so many people.
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In fact, I have to mention this Cameron Bertuzzi It is relevant to our topic tweeted me a couple days ago
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I made a comment about this subject and he literally tweeted to me
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He has not responded since then but he literally tweeted to me. He said Aren't you aware?
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that when Arabic Christians refer to God they refer to him as Allah my my response was
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Let me guess you haven't read what every Christian needs to know about the Quran have you I mean
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I addressed it in a published book I've done videos on it going back to like 2007 maybe
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Some of you very few of you will remember that when I really started doing the deep dive into Islam after 2006 and the debate with Shabir Ali at Biola You know, we would do entire dividing lines
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I remember doing a dividing line we did nothing but cover every single Reference to Isa bin
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Mariam in the Quran Every reference to Jesus every possible reference Jews in the car.
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That's what the whole program was. I mean talk about exciting stuff and so we covered the use of a law and How that's what that's the terminology the
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Christians use its generic term for God, but obviously the Muslim Understanding of a law is based upon Quranic revelation
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Interpreted in light of the Hadith and the developed theology of Tauheed within Islamic thought and So I've addressed this subject over and over and over and over again over the years
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But Cameron Bertuzzi doesn't know that because he doesn't do his homework When I criticized his recent solo scriptura thing, it was the same thing again.
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He just Doesn't do his homework. So there's a huge contrast Between Cameron Bertuzzi who doesn't do his homework and Peter D Williams who does big difference
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So Peter D Williams Specifically here. I wanted to take a look at things here and You see how this works
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That's readable Ain't touching any other buttons don't touch it.
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We bake it but that actually works really well. Look at that cool When I'm the one doing it then
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I sort of feel proud of myself Rich is just sitting there. He's here and he's warm Like we all are but he got no control over none of this stuff.
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Okay, it's all right there He'd have to climb over me to do anything so I can say and do whatever
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I want You have the chat Oh big deal Yes Someone has named the background the background of many colors well it's actually an
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LED strip of many colors, but yes, and I did note that you did not have it on when it came in and I'm sure you were going maybe he'll forget but There's no glass between us right now, so, you know, it's a little bit more anyway, all right, here's a
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Peter D. Williams said There is a little online skirmish going on right now about whether Christians and Muslims worship the one true
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God Catholics typically say yes And rightly so there are a few who don't but they tend to be ill -informed
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Americans He is British who are unduly influenced by the fundamentalism in their country.
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Isn't that fascinating? In that fashion because because believe me there are a lot of Roman Catholics who say no and The the fundamentalism of America gets blamed for that and what's interesting is nt, right?
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years ago Referred to inerrancy as that silly American doctor so if there's anything the
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British don't like they just blame it on the Americans and Sort of you know Do the raised nose, you know powdered wig thing
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The reason for our affirmation is because this is just the consistent historic
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Christian view not a post Vatican to ie 60s one I Again really
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The the Pope's sending the armies the Crusades. Oh Yeah, we're all worshiping the same
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God now look When Islam first showed up.
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There were many people who viewed Islam as A Christian heresy, that's true
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But anyways Those who worship the God of classical theism the creator and sustainer of the universe with the attributes typically ascribed to him as Muslims do
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I Not withstanding a few errors in their theology proper such as voluntarism
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Worship the one true God. I think there's more to it that you you include The Quran being as eternal as a law and uncreated
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The the essence of Tauheed is fundamental Unitarianism Of Fundamental Unitarianism in opposition to Trinitarianism.
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It's not just we have a different view. It's we know what you believe We reject that and here's what we believe
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This is especially easy to affirm for those who identified the one whom they worship as the God worshipped by the patriarchs, so let's
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Deal with that Is it the case? that Islam is claiming
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You know, we have today what do we have today we call it the Abraham Accords, right?
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And so we're talking about the Abrahamic faiths All claiming
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Abraham. Well, okay There is no question that Jews believing
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Jews, okay practicing Jews. I'm not talking about secular Believing Jews believing
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Christians and believing Muslims Believe that the God that they worship is the
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God who spoke to Abraham Okay, that's that's not a that's not a question that's a given no one's disputing that So That's what's hot being talked about the one whom they worship as the
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God worshipped by the patriarchs. So that's the claim All right, so That that much is true.
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My position is we are not worshipping the same God. I must be the fundamentalist and I would say nine out of ten minimally of The Muslims that I have debated around the world nine and a half out of ten
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Would agree with me. We do not worship same God and they've said that in our debates They've said that in our debates, is it more likely that a
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Muslim in the West Might try to say otherwise it's more likely
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But they're a small minority The vast majority of Muslims are not in the West at all
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He continues the only substantive objection to the idea that Muslims worship the one true
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God appears to be That they reject the doctrine of the Trinity that They reject the doctrine of the
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Trinity knowingly Purposefully and Let me point something else out that I I Don't think most people addressing this have done
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The vast majority of people talk about this subject have not read all the Muslim Hadith like I have
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I Have not done dialogues on this subject in South Africa London, Australia, etc
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Do not have a Substantial Islamic theological library at their fingertips as I do and so They're not aware of the fact that when you read not only the
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Hadith but early Islamic theological sources and Depending on when they're written, you know some written before The final collection of the
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Hadith and so there they have access to interesting traditions that are not considered
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Sahih later on but anyway The early
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Muslims known almost nothing and certainly the Quran knows nothing about The covenant name of God in the
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Old Testament Yahweh There's just there's almost nothing so for example when
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I when I demonstrate the New Testament writers identify Jesus as Yahweh This is not something that they hear or been prepared for or anything
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It's not a part of Islamic interaction for a long long time and it's understandable why as I said earlier the author of the
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Quran and I've explained why I use that terminology in other contexts. I'm not going to go back over right now the author of the
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Quran Clearly has much more connection to Jewish sources than Christian sources and as such by the 6th century
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Jews weren't using the divine name and Even Christians wouldn't be using the divine name at that point in time very much either and So it's understandable
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Why there is? This general lack of interaction with that particular subject
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So The Muslim theology of God goes beyond just its rejection of Trinitarianism I would argue that the
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Muslim theology of God with his emphasis upon Tawheed Makes Absolute not absolute monotheism, but absolute
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Unitarianism the identifying characteristic of Allah, so it's not just oh they reject the
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Trinity well Yeah, they do, but it goes beyond that He goes on to say but so do
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Judaists after the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ yet The scriptures clearly state that the
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Jews have a zelon They you a zeal for God Romans 10 to and indeed the Jews in Jerusalem who explicitly rejected and crucified our
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Lord I described by st. Paul as being Zay low taste who park own tooth a you is zealous for God acts 23
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Since you cannot be zealous for a God you do not truly worship clear the Jews even whilst being ignorant of and rejecting the
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Trinity Still worship God the God worshipped by Abraham if the Jews and their Unitarian monotheism still worship
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God by virtue of worshiping the God Who is identifiable as the one true God then so can and do
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Muslims QED? Well, here's the problem He's talking about a transitionary let's let's grant for a moment
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The argument that being zealous for God means they're actually worshiping the one for God. I don't grant that and in fact, I reject that I think that's a misinterpretation.
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And of course being a Roman Catholic He's stuck because there is no infallible interpretation of these texts from their own perspective
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But I don't grant it, but let's even grant that for a moment. This is a transitionary period The gospel is just going out.
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The gospel is encountering Jews in synagogues all over the place that have never heard before and So this is not the situation you have with Islam Islam is coming over half a millennium later.
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It's Islam is coming centuries after the is coming a hundred and well right at 170 some -odd years after calcedon and so Islam knows
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About these things and Is rejecting these things that's not the same situation of the
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Jews But again, I don't accept the idea that having being zealous for God means you're worshiping the one true
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God That does not follow at all But what would follow from this well and a number of people have pointed this out
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Jehovah's Witnesses worship the one true God Right. I mean there they claim to be worshiping the one true
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God that spoke to Abraham, right? So as long as you make that claim Despite teaching
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Unitarianism teaching the Jesus is Michael the Archangel and the Holy Spirit is an impersonal active force. You're still worshiping the one true
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God Mormons worship the one true God Even though he they believe that the one true
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God was once a man That lived on a planet the circles a star named Kolob. It is one of a billion gods
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I mean if you're gonna follow this through They're all worshiping the one true God there is
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And you really you're starting to Tiptoe toward the video that I showed you on the last program with David Bentley Hart where he's saying there is no idolatry
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Every statue every icon every idol Represents something greater than itself.
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And so you can bow down before that idol you can sacrifice children to Muller That's still not a dollar
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Because the statue represents something great Which I think it's absurd on a level that's astonishing but that's where you're heading with this kind of thinking and So no
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Mormons do not worship the one true God. They believe God is an exalted man from another planet
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Jehovah's Witnesses do not worship the one true God, even though they use the name Jehovah Because they knowingly are rejecting his own self identification within the
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Christian scriptures So Having said that I Will Do that and take that down So there's a response to Peter D Williams on that But there's more and hopefully
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I can pull it up here for you without too much more hesitation Michael Lofton brings up another
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Vitally important aspect here and that is he raises the question
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Okay What y 'all should be talking about is the fact that the Roman Catholic Magisterium since Vatican to?
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has actually taught That you can be saved in these religions
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You can receive eternal life. You can go to heaven By following the good in these religions now you can look up Under reason and theology does
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Catholicism teach Muslims can be saved. Here's the answer Read the comments Read the comments when this is posted on Twitter The beautiful unity of Rome Vanishes as it must
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As it should vanishes it disappears and He's called a heretic and a liar and All of the oh, we are also unified and we have the one, you know, there is
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Sola scriptura the blueprint for anarchy. Well, evidently the teaching Magisterium blueprint for anarchy when it comes to Our Muslims worship the one true
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God can they be saved worshiping that one true God? What about capital punishment all sorts of fun stuff here and the list will probably keep growing as as time passes but I Want to play
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This video and I will I will start and stop well I'm playing this off YouTube and it may not allow me to start and stop it.
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So let's Let's see what happens. Let's let's but Let's let's give it a shot and and see what happens here.
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Here we go Here's what everyone missed in the whole do Muslims and Christians worship the same
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God debate that's been going on lately Most people are pointing to the famous line from Vatican twos document lumen gentium paragraph 16
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Which says the Muslims along with us adore the one and merciful God But somehow almost nobody is talking about the sentence right before it which says this but the plan of salvation
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Also includes those who acknowledge the Creator in the first place amongst these there are the
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Muslims now I have Mentioned this before but I also recognize
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That there have been many Roman Catholics I've spoken to who have
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Understood, but the plan of salvation Does not mean that Muslim worship results in salvation or in some union with the church in some mystical fashion
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But he's saying no it includes salvation now in the past when
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I've stopped something like this It wouldn't allow me to start again. Let's see what happens now That's a huge deal as I've pointed out many times before this is not an isolated statement
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Multiple Vatican documents make it very clear that non -christians and therefore also
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Muslims can be saved by the Holy Spirit working through their own religions if They're sincerely seeking the goodness found in them now catch that If they're seeking the goodness found in them
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Sincerely seeking the goodness found in them now, where does this come from?
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Well, it doesn't come from the New Testament. It doesn't come from the Apostles when you have as Roman Catholicism has the concept of apostolic succession
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You need to understand that apostolic succession means you can believe things the Apostles never even dreamed of We tend to think of apostolic succession meaning that there is a actual body of revealed truth that is being passed on but no it's an authority that Fundamentally when you look at for example, the last
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Marian dogmas Fundamentally requires you to in essence embrace a concept of continuing revelation
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It really does you can't get away from it and So what you have here you don't get from Romans chapter 3
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You can sit there and read Romans chapter 3 and the universal symbolism man and recognize.
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Well, there is no one sincerely There's none who seek after God So, how can you have someone who is sincerely seeking the good if they don't have a revelation of God is what the good is in their religion is
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Jihad good in Islam is Denying the deity of Christ good in Islam is
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Denying the crucifixion good in Islam is sir a four one two seven which denies the
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Jesus Christ crucified. Is that a good of Islam? What a person who believes that what's what's
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How do you how do you handle this? Doesn't seem to me That the bigwigs at the
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Vatican really thought these things through very well Or if they did they did not think these things through on the basis of Scripture Which is the key issue here and you know a few other conditions
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But the idea is that the Holy Spirit is working through the goodness in these other religions Not like he does with the sacraments
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But by a person's faithfulness to the good found in their own religion the
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Holy Spirit's working there and can save them through that So the okay sounds great
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Makes a lot of people feel warm and fuzzy Want to show me an apostle teaching that I'll show anything in the
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New Testament That even comes close to this. Oh Hey All you out here worshiping these gods
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Mars Hill the Areopagus Hey as long as you're seeking the good
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Of Diana and Apollo you're No problem
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The Holy Spirit will work through the good of Apollo worship Really?
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Honestly, it's hard not to chuckle Because it's like do you realize how far away from anything?
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Semi apostolic you are right now It it really is it really is difficult
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They might not even know that they're a Christian but somehow they're mystically united to the church outside which there is no salvation
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Now here is to me while the greatest examples of Roman Catholic doublespeak
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I've ever seen we know in the medieval period that extra
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Ecclesium Noah's Solace was taken very seriously and very literally There's no salvation outside of submission to the
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Bishop of Rome when I'm sanctum said right and As you're swinging your broadsword and chopping a
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Muslim's head off This is not in the background of what's going on at all?
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obviously so now in the modern period after Vatican to We now have a
43:16
Roman Catholic saying well the Muslim is mysteriously mystically
43:25
Joined to the one true Church Outside of which there is no salvation
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It's not just the Muslim It would have to be everybody anybody
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Sincerely seeking the good in whatever religion. They're a part of is now part of the church and you might go
43:49
Well, you know there's a baptism of desire discussion as a sure there's been development, but it wasn't development guided by Scripture It was development guided by tradition which now leads you to this
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One official Vatican document even says this given this explicit recognition of the presence of the
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Spirit of Christ in the religions One cannot exclude the possibility that they exercise as such a certain salvific function
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Now I'm gonna keep it there while it's still up on the screen Given this explicit recognition of the presence of the
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Spirit of Christ in the religions From what? Well again, this is all post
44:35
Vatican to Citations this is there's no exegesis here
44:41
No one's seriously saying this is the message of Paul and Romans or Galatians or something like that but once you accept this idea of Apostolic authority then
44:57
One cannot exclude the possibility that they exercise as such a certain salvific function
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That is despite their ambiguity. They help men achieve their ultimate end their ultimate end
45:13
What is their ultimate end? Again Where is any of this coming from Scripture that is despite their ambiguity they help men achieve their ultimate end
45:25
That ultimate end being salvation in heaven and union with God the same document goes on to say this
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The salvific work of the Holy Spirit works in the religions
45:36
But that's not the end Listen to this from Pope John Paul the second and Cardinal Ratzinger who later on became
45:43
Pope Benedict the 16th They taught it is therefore legitimate to maintain that the Holy Spirit accomplishes salvation in non -christians also through those elements of truth and goodness
45:55
Present in the various religions. So there you have it There you have this straightforward assertion and Here's the problem.
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Here's the problem Who gets to interpret this who gets to interpret these words
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You know, we don't we don't know enough about Leo yet to know exactly where he is and all this stuff
46:27
But but who gets to interpret this? You see this stuff is not self -interpreting and It's clearly not what was being taught 200 years ago within Roman Catholicism.
46:39
That is unquestionable But a
46:46
Francis interpreting this is different than a John Paul interpreting and Who knows who's gonna come next and we don't know anything about Leo yet to know where he's gonna fall in this
47:01
This can be interpreted in so many different ways and the Roman Catholics are interpreting it in so many different ways Just read the comments.
47:08
They are having themselves a grand old civil war because it's easy to go to earlier statements say it can't mean that because this means this and as long as you assume that Rome is the infallible
47:21
Continuation of apostolic teaching then you're stuck with a royal mess Until you go.
47:27
This is a bunch of human tradition. They they left apostolic teaching a long long long long time ago
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That's the only way to deal with this. That's the only way to deal with this So this to me when
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Rome cannot even give you a clear and concise answer as To who to worship
47:48
I can't tell you what the gospel is the
47:53
Holy Spirit's working through what? pilgrimages in Islam Pioneer ministry service amongst
48:01
Jehovah's Witnesses are those are those two more missionaries driving riding by your house right now sweating their eyeballs out
48:09
Are they gonna get eternal life because they're seeking the good in their religion
48:15
While they think they're gonna become gods Is that really what Rome teaches how do you know and what's more even if you come to conclusion how you know it now
48:26
What about 10 years from now? What about 10 years from now It might change might have a different Pope might be interpreted differently.
48:38
I Really really think this is an excellent time for a lot of Roman Catholics to go
48:45
I'm not sure that the arguments I've been making against The sufficiency of Scripture are really good arguments
48:53
Maybe I need to rethink this Big time big time. Well, we're coming up Toward the end of the program here
49:04
Well, actually I've got 11 minutes I guess if we're gonna go for an hour Believe me.
49:13
They're not that's that's nothing yet No, that's good. I don't want a hundred degrees in here before we finish the program
49:19
Rich is worried about the the awnings on the RV he's obviously never been an
49:24
RV when a storm actually came up so There's a lot more could be said about that I think there's a lot more that needs to be thought through on this subject to me.
49:36
It is one of the most glaring examples of how
49:41
Roman Authoritarian claims collapse in real life
49:48
Trying to deal with basic things what is the worship of the one true God? They can't tell you they can't tell you what a shame what a shame
49:59
Okay switching gears briefly Because I said
50:05
I would mention this I said I would address it I Sent a last program that a new book is coming out.
50:12
It's a self -published book It's not a long book by dr. David Allen Dr.
50:19
Allen used to teach at Southwestern he's now at Mid -America Baptist Theological Seminary and Probably about 15 years ago or so he was given the task of Providing some kind of scholarly refutation of Calvinism within the
50:35
Southern Baptist Convention John 316 conference. He hooked up with a guy named Tony Byrne who?
50:43
Ironically at the time anyways was a four -point Calvinist an Amaraldian and He has fed him all this
50:52
Amaraldian stuff even though the reality is Allen's a provisionist. He's not reformed at all.
50:58
I don't I've never understood that connection. It's pretty weird. But anyway So he's put out a lot of stuff
51:06
He claimed as we mentioned the last program last week That no one will respond to him and it's like what you mean we we spent two hours taking apart
51:18
One of your articles on this subject that was longer than stuff you had put into your books we've
51:25
Had your books and hardbacks sitting on the table. We've put them up on the screen. We've refuted elements of them
51:31
We don't go through the whole thing because we're not interested in arguing the whole thing we like to deal with scripture and One of the primary areas is
51:39
I do not believe that Dr. Allen has ever Presented a defensible exegesis of Romans chapter 8 in regards to predestination election and the extent of the atonement because Romans 8 does address that subject in regards to the intercessory work of Jesus Christ for his elect and The perfection of the atonement of the perfection salvation that comes from that atoning work and so He's got a new book coming out
52:13
I showed you the cover of it. I don't have it right now. But again, it's an
52:19
Anti -reformed work. It's as I said self -published And it comes out tomorrow,
52:26
I believe And If it's not available electronically, I won't be reviewing it until it is so I wrote on Twitter to dr.
52:38
Allen because I have over the years repeatedly challenged him to debate. I Have repeatedly offered to come to his classroom to come to his school.
52:50
He didn't wouldn't have to do anything Do it on his schedule To debate this issue
52:58
Won't do it so he put out a page and a half two -page
53:03
PDF yesterday, I believe they for wanted to Explaining basically that I'm a big mini hit and the reason we'll not debate me is because what
53:15
I say, I don't say with the Spirit of Christ and all the rest this kind of stuff and I'm sorry.
53:23
The reason he won't debate is because he knows he can't refute the arguments that we've made
53:29
But let's say I'm a big terrible horrible mini hit. I Think dr.
53:35
Allen has pained himself into a corner Turretin fan Posted a response to dr.
53:42
Allen that was really really interesting. I don't think I I don't think
53:52
I put it in my yeah, I forgot to put it in my footnotes here
54:01
I Bookmarked it is interesting. I will just let me just throw this in here because I see it here.
54:11
I do have bookmarked some comments from Joel Webbin About how
54:17
Roman Catholicism is not our primary enemy today And I keep telling everybody
54:24
Keep going the direction these guys are going you play around the Crusades you play around sacralism play around with Aquinas natural law
54:35
You'd go the direction these guys are going Not only do they have zero reason to still be
54:42
Baptist. They'll have zero reason to be Protestant Mark it down Watch what happens?
54:50
It's really Very very obvious. Let me see if I can It's a little bit harder with these
55:00
When you only have one screen it's a lot easier when you have Large screen here it is.
55:10
All right There's a Turgeon fan said the reason David Allen recently gave for declining a challenge to debate the
55:17
Doctrine of Atonement Was to attack the character of the person who offered the challenge Accusing him of having an unchristian spirit because the specific things the person said over the years if that's truly the chief reason for dr
55:28
Allen's unwillingness to debate Those of us who hold to the biblical doctrine particular redemption can offer up numerous other debate opponents including such folks as myself
55:37
Jeremiah nortier Matt slick of karma org whom dr Allen's character attack would obviously not apply since they were personal criticisms of that specific person
55:47
That's not in the least to agree in any respect with dr Allen's character attack on my friend and brother who contrary to dr.
55:54
Allen's accusations does indeed have the spirit of Christ Dr. Allen may really feel that way. God knows the heart personally
56:00
I've debated people who I am comfortable saying we're outside the Church of Christ at the time we debated
56:06
I don't make judging their heart a criteria for debating them and I would be surprised if anyone who regularly debates does have that standard
56:13
Finally I would call dr. Allen to take down his attack on my friend I don't think the fundamental accusations are true and even assuming they were true.
56:20
I don't think it speaks Well, dr. Allen been making them as straight as they stated a reason for not debating dr
56:26
Allen is under no moral obligation to debate anyone But he is under moral obligation of the ninth commandment whether or not he is bothered by being frequently and sharply challenged to debate the topic
56:37
Brilliant as always from turrets and fam But I love it Um Okay I'm big meanie head
56:46
If that's the only reason you're not debating me. It's not because there are errors on I've said
56:51
It's not because you can defend what you've written in your articles that we demonstrated was fallacious
56:59
If that's the only reason then debate turf and fam Debate other people who are prepared to deal with this particular issue
57:10
Who haven't been meanie heads to you? Since that's that's what you're saying Now also
57:17
I'd point out with turrets and fam That's not the basis for doing a debate.
57:23
I've debated all sorts of people that were That I did not believe were true
57:29
Christians or they're obviously don't even claim to be true Christians But I've debated people who I do not believe are true
57:35
Christians. I Still engage them now people say well there are people you won't debate. That's true because of their behavioral issue
57:43
That's completely different You know if if I have real reason to believe that someone could not would not possibly be able to control themselves in a debate without Losing their minds then.
57:57
Yeah, I don't feel like I'm under any obligation to debate such a person but To my knowledge
58:04
Dr. Allen's never debated anybody to my knowledge Um, I'm coming up on number 200
58:11
I can demonstrate and document that not only can I debate this topic But a wide variety of other topics and do so in a proper scholarly and in fact
58:22
Christian manner So I reject the grounds.
58:27
I reject the accusations But let's say it's pretty obvious to me.
58:33
Dr. Allen is never going to take up my debate challenge How about somebody else
58:41
Because there are plenty of folks who can exegete Romans chapter 8 Just as well as I can or anybody else so How about that?
58:52
Because it seems to me if you're gonna put something out and say I'm not gonna do it because You are a big meanie head
59:00
Then what you're saying is if you weren't a big meanie head, I would do it Well, there are people who aren't big meanie heads and by the way big meanie head came from rich I just wanted you to know that that was his initial interpretation before I had even read dr.
59:13
Allen's statement Rich called and said did you read that? He says your problem is you're a big meanie head.
59:19
So Great big me. Yes. Okay All right.
59:26
Good. See it's when he's in the room. It's not Through glass you can actually hear it.
59:33
So I'm the great big meanie head. So, all right there. There you go So I would
59:39
I would again challenge. Dr. Allen, okay Everybody in the world will tell you turrets and fan is like He's like a
59:52
Muppet I'll go just to find them as winsome winsome Winsome, I like a
59:58
Muppet personally because I mean like could Big Bird ever be a big meanie head Okay, all right the bigger the bigger the two old guys that's different, okay.
01:00:10
All right. Well, we'll let that go Turretin fan is a great guy. He's he's he is
01:00:16
Really really nice. In fact from my opinion. He's too nice. What's the time? Okay I'm a little harder nose than he is.
01:00:25
But hey if that's what you want One thing I can absolutely assure you of when it comes to Romans chapter 8, he's gonna hold your feet the fire
01:00:35
He has the skills and abilities to do it. And here's my prediction. He won't do it because that's the real issue
01:00:44
It's not that I'm a great big meanie head or even a regular -sized meanie head It's that he's gonna have to do cross -examination based upon the text and His position cannot survive that That's it that's the whole reason that's the whole reason man my back is sweating like anything in here
01:01:10
It's so much fun. But Hey, you know it all worked We didn't have any yeah, look at that data rates up to five five point nine there that it's moving along so I'll leave
01:01:25
Saturday Lord willing We turn the water on it didn't start pouring out the bottom of the unit
01:01:32
Everything's working. The tires are inflated Yeah, rich rich insists that the refrigerator was moving too much and I Didn't know that but rich rich has has come to rescue and He's got it fixed
01:01:52
And as soon as he texted me and told me that I sent him a really neat gif or gif However, you call those things of Tim the tool man
01:01:59
Taylor with a big old honking drill Yeah That refrigerator is going nowhere
01:02:08
Nowhere at all. Well, okay, actually it's going to it's going to Arkansas and back again, but that's not really what we had in mind.
01:02:16
So anyways pull out on On Saturday and the police pray for traveling mercies as we go out come back
01:02:25
We've cut this trip a little bit shorter because I'm gone all of September all of September so we've got the
01:02:33
Nashville conference Jason Lyle Eli. I'll really looking forward to that We've got
01:02:39
Harbor Freight g3 in Tullahoma the next weekend and I'm gonna be up with Chris Arnson and Doing his pastor's conference and speaking at his church the weekend after that and That's a really not only a long time.
01:02:56
It's a long trip Lots of diesel fuel and I would
01:03:03
I would love to I want to come back from this trip And just park this baby in our covered parking spot
01:03:13
Not have to go to the service department to have something repaired. That would be really really wonderful But I sort of doubt it and besides that they do all the tire rotation and stuff like that Which after three three three hundred miles the other one's over 5 ,000 miles.
01:03:27
So yeah, we'll see Anyway, I'd like to be able to do that. Yes, sir Somebody Someone to Well, he is the friendliest
01:03:53
Calvinist ever Keith Foskey prince of the Amillennialist king of the other
01:03:58
Millennials. I forget what it is. But yeah, Keith would Heart well, he's
01:04:05
Harbor Freight Doug Wilson. So there's there's where that comes from. So yeah, Keith Foskey I'm sure would be able to handle it as well as well.
01:04:12
So so again our thanks to all of you Who've given to the travel fund? When you see that background behind me know that Your support is needed to keep this baby moving down the road and your prayers are needed that I will
01:04:32
Keep this thing moving down the road and not down the side of the road or alongside of the road or anything else like that in the process
01:04:39
So, I don't know When we'll be doing the next program
01:04:48
I'd assume Monday or Tuesday, but again for those of you maybe knew the program
01:04:56
Not every RV park was created equal when it comes to internet access
01:05:03
Whether we can put our star link thing out sometimes trees and the way there's there's stuff that can happen
01:05:08
Weather can happen when can happen things like that. So what you need is the
01:05:13
Alpha Omega app So that you can know when we're gonna do the program and we can get that out there for you and do stuff like that so with that Thank you very much for watching the program we will see you next time