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Let's talk about the book of Acts. People teleport, languages are coming out of nowhere. What happened to the unnamed apostles after Jesus ascended?
There was a lot going on, and it was probably a lot messier and diverse, maybe a few more failures.
Sunday school interpretation of it was like way blander than that. It was, do you think they thought they would see
Jesus come back? I do think there's probably a heightened sense of, you know, eschatological expectation.
He ends the story in sort of this like open -ended way. Where should we have courage? The same way we read in Acts.
Hello, hello. Welcome to Biblically Speaking. My name is Cassian Bellino, and I'm your host.
In this podcast, we talk about the Bible in simple terms with experts, PhDs, and scholarly theologians to make understanding
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Thank you so much for listening. Now let's get to the show. Hello, hello. My name is Cassian Blino, and this is
Biblically Speaking. Let's talk about the book of Acts because we understand the gospels, we understand the
Bible, we understand Jesus, and then he's gone, and then what happens? Because people teleport, languages are coming out of nowhere that everybody understands, entire cities are changing overnight.
So what happens between then and now? How did the church get evolved? And I feel like these are really important foundational questions that I'm very confused about and very curious about.
So my guest today is Dr. Joshua W. Gipp. You're the professor of New Testament and executive director of the
Henry Center for Theological Understanding at the Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. Lots of fans from TEDS.
You're the author of Pauline Theology and the Way of Life, Saved by Faith and Hospitality, and the
Messianic Theology of the New Testament. A lot of coverage on the Messianic prophecies and Jesus and his life.
You basically help readers see how the first believers lived out faith in real communities, which is what we do here is put it in context.
Like if I lived back then, what was I experiencing? Welcome to the show. Yeah, thanks Cassian. Looking forward to our conversation.
Let's get right into it. What happened to the unnamed apostles after Jesus ascended? Yeah, we know so much about Peter and Paul and a little bit about Philip and others, because they're given to us in the book of Acts.
But for the others, we have less, at least scriptural texts to know exactly what happened.
So we do have texts such as the Apocryphal Acts of the Apostles. So these are not in our
Bible, but there are things like the Acts of John or the Acts of Peter, Acts of Thomas.
And there's also other, maybe the most other famous text would be the church historian Eusebius of Caesarea.
He will like share some of the adventures and stories and places that the other apostles journeyed and traveled.
Now we don't, it's pretty spotty. So you get stories about Thomas going to India, which is really fun and exciting.
But it's a little bit harder to try to verify historically what happened to all of these apostles.
We know that many of them seem to have been martyred. Some of them seem to have continued the missionary journeys that we see in the book of Acts into other regions.
But a lot of our historical knowledge of them is a little bit more spotty. So we don't, we get bits and pieces from other later church texts without getting sort of like full biographical portraits of them for the most part.
Is there a reason we know more about Peter and Paul than these guys? Were they just like a sub tier level of apostles?
They're not the main character. Like, why is it kind of like hidden information? Yeah. Some of it probably has to, let me put it this way.
You put this well in the introduction. We have gospels. So we have, you know, biographical accounts of the life of Jesus.
But, and we have multiples, you know, ones of those that are even in our Bible, right? Four of them. We also have letters, but Acts is kind of its own thing within the canon.
And so really, really my answer to you Cassian is, you know, the foundational importance or sort of like even the unique role that Acts plays in the
Christian canon exerts a lot of influence then upon sort of our imagination as well as our historical knowledge of Peter and Paul.
And so, you know, we are, you know, a lot of my students or a lot of pastors would maybe be able to tell you a little bit about, oh, well,
Paul did this, you know, and they're drawing upon, you know, the Acts of the apostles, or they might say, remember
Peter, and, you know, when the spirit came, you know, to Cornelius when he was preaching and their minds, you know, without maybe even always recognizing it are, you know, deeply formed by this book,
Acts, cause it's part of our Christian scripture. But maybe the hidden part or, you know, the part that's just how it is in Christian history is that there was a lot going on in the early church.
I mean, there was a lot going on as Christianity was spreading from Jerusalem, you know, all throughout the ancient world.
And it was probably a lot messier and diverse and confusing and, you know, maybe a few more failures than what we get just in the book of Acts.
There was a lot going on, but, you know, why do we know about Peter and Paul in large part because,
I mean, we have Peter's letters and Paul's letters, but in large part, you know, it's because Acts becomes canonized as Christian scripture, whereas Eusebius telling other stories or the apocryphal
Acts, you know, those are interesting, but they don't form our imaginations in the same way because they're not part of the
Christian canon. Okay, yeah. I think that we overthink maybe like it was taken out or, you know, they were doing something that they don't want us to know about or it's hidden, but I think you put it simply of like, there's just not the same amount of data as there are about others, as there are about Peter and Paul.
But like you said, there's so much happening back then. And I feel like it kind of like debuts in Acts with this like amazing scene of being baptized in the
Holy Spirit and Pentecost and we'll get there. But after that, what's the day in the life of these apostles?
Like what were they doing in those early years? I know that they were like going about and traveling and staying in people's homes until basically those people wanted them to leave and kind of living a modest life.
But what else do we not get as a Sunday school Christian where like, whoa, what the work that they were doing was so much more noble, obviously, but paint the picture so we can actually feel it.
Yeah. I mean, like maybe I'll just pick Paul because we have some of evidence from him, not only from Acts, but from his letters.
He would seem to do something that was working with his hands. He had a trade, probably some of the ways that he was capable of even making relationships as he traveled from town to town, from city to city was through his craft.
And so as a Jewish man moving to a new city, he would probably seek out other people that had sort of like the same craft that he did, make relationships there.
So one thing we could say with some of these apostles is that these early Christian leaders is that they were craftsmen, they worked with their hands or they had trades.
They were also, you know, Acts of course wants us to remember them as powerful preachers.
Acts is filled with speeches, you know, more than most ancient histories. Speech is a common rhetorical device that ancient histories use, but Acts has more of it even where they're constantly standing up and interpreting this and explaining this.
So they're clearly speech givers, but they're also, you know, on the ground, it seems as if they're strategists in terms of thinking about what is
God doing? You know, he clearly wants the mission to move forward. Where's he at work?
How do we then strategically sort of like, you know, move from place to place, you know, in terms of making a journey, making connections with other people in other cities, you know, receiving then, you know, hospitality, staying in their home, finances.
Acts isn't always going into all the details of how they did this, you know, it uses it as part of the story, but undoubtedly they were also, you know, sort of engaged in the common task of financial management, social, you know, sort of like engaging with social relationships and their challenges and their joys, you know, as they were seeking really to spread the good news of Jesus.
Interesting. I guess like, again, like my Sunday school interpretation of it was like way blander than that.
It was, they basically were baptized in the Holy Spirit and then wandered like monks and, you know, just talked with like holy words, but it sounds like they lived a pretty standard life.
I mean, the fact that they worked and were still doing their trade is kind of a surprise to me. Right, right.
There, you know, on the one hand there, I think Acts does, you know, if you read through Acts, it's not wrong to at the end be like, wow, these people, you know, that like heroic might be too strong of a word, but like, wow,
Peter, wow, Paul, this is amazing. Like, that's not wrong. Like Acts wants you to see that, but I think it also, it gives, you know, it gives a picture of the church and of these early
Christian leaders that are very much involved in the world that they live in. They're not casting it off.
They're not, you know, cloistered, you know, up in terms of just dealing with, you know, holy people only.
They know, you know, some of what's going on in terms of, you know, the contemporary religions or the contemporary philosophies or, you know, what the person on the street might say or think, or, you know, how to make a trade.
So, you know, heroic, sure. Yeah, in some ways, absolutely. But also very much living within this world and engaged within this world as actual people, that too, yeah.
So interesting. I mean, it kind of changes the entire thing that they did from like, oh, this is what the holy men did that set up the church to like, this is something you can still do.
They were still paying taxes and working nine to five. So can you, and look what they were doing with their time as well by establishing the foundations of the church.
Yeah, so like what exactly do you think was the most foundational work that they did that established the earliest churches?
Let me put it this way. The most foundational work that they did was it's gonna sound, this is gonna sound like a
Sunday school answer, but I think it's true, was taking their cues from God and what God was doing.
And so God - You make it so relatable. Come on, make it. God is always, let me put it this way.
They are waiting to see what God is doing and what God is doing often confuses and surprises them at first.
So strategists, yes, you know, missionaries involved in all the mundane aspects of the world, yes, but very much also sort of like deeply committed to God's mission and trying to, and often waiting to see, you know, what's
God up to. So, you know, whether it's Pentecost, you know, they're not there saying like, let's strategically do
X, Y, and Z. They're there praying, spirit comes upon, and then it works.
Oh, okay, this is happening. It's happening. Something is happening. Let's just go with that. Okay, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, we'll get to like the eunuch and stuff, but just that, just, you need to go over there and stand by that wagon or whatever they called it.
And then they meet the eunuch and then Philip is taken away. But yeah, that's really, really interesting that it's not, and I don't mean this harshly, but it's not grandiose actions.
It really was just obedience. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, waiting to see.
I mean, often waiting to see what God's doing and then trying to discern and interpret God's action and move forward.
Oh, geez. Okay, so like logistically, these are, this is a group of guys, and then we get to a massive faith.
How did the church grow so rapidly? Like, surely going to India was not a short flight away.
Like this, how did it grow so quickly when these guys were on foot? Like there was no buildings. There was no meeting place, budgets, branding.
Like think of the things that like build a church today. Like I have my church here. It's three years old. It's phenomenal. But there's a lot of things that exist for that church to get it where it's at today that this church,
I mean, also it would be helpful if you could give like some sort of timeline. Like when we say the church was built so quickly, what would you say?
Like how long until we established the quote church? Right, right, right. So yeah, let me, I'll get to that.
Let me start with the first question and then I'll also work that in as well. The church in many ways grew.
Let me put it this way. By when it was in Jerusalem, Peter proclaims that God has raised
Jesus from the dead. And then we have this sort of like really powerful depiction of the church where they're devoted to the teaching of the apostles and to prayer, but they're also breaking bread, eating meals within one another's home.
And the end of that, it's at the end of Acts two, it says, and the Lord was adding to their midst, many who were being saved.
So how does the church start, right? It really starts with the apostolic proclamation.
God has raised the crucified, the one that was crucified. God has raised him from the dead.
Spirit comes upon God's people. It gives to them then this sort of like new form of unity, love, hospitality, care for one another.
And there are these like little mini kind of like mass conversions that take place in Jerusalem.
So I think three different times we're told that 3 ,000 were added to their midst or 4 ,000 were added to their midst.
So there's this little nucleus of people of followers of Jesus in Jerusalem.
And then the gospel starts to move to new places and to new territories. And one of the ways that it does that is by taking root actually in people's homes.
So I'll just give one example in Acts 16, Paul is looking for a synagogue, but he actually encounters a group of women,
Lydia and other women that have a business it looks like in terms of working with clothing.
And Lydia hears Paul's proclamation. She believes and her whole household then ends up becoming converted.
And the house, the place where they would eat, drink, have unity, be devoted to the apostolic teaching, but way off now in Philippi.
I don't have a map here, but we've moved from Jerusalem in the East. And now we've crossed a lot of miles to get to Philippi, it's doing the same thing.
So maybe it's not a short answer in the way I'm giving it Cassian, but it's how does the church take root?
It's in many ways through these social relationships where Jesus is proclaimed as risen
Lord, and then a gathering takes root often in a household where a community then is doing the same things the church was doing in Jerusalem.
The tail end of your question, I could never give numbers like how many people exactly, but I do think your question is helpful because it does remind us that at this point, the church is still small enough that it can largely meet in homes.
And we're not yet into the third or fourth century where you start to get, sort of like these
Christian cathedrals or something along those lines. It is still a,
I don't wanna say fledgling, but it's still a small sort of like movement by the time you get to the end of Acts.
It's not taken over the world as sort of like some type of world religion at this point.
There's a couple of things that I think that I'll bring up and ask you about that I think kind of were like milestones in the early days that kind of like made the church what it is.
But what do you think were like the most foundational things that took place in those early days that really like made the community so magnetic and made the thousands join?
I mean, other than like the movement of the Holy Spirit, like that's not being discounted here and just like God's will. But do you think there was like strategic things we can look back on what they did to be like, well, that's what made it so successful?
Yeah, yeah. I think there's a great question. I think there's a powerful sense that God is alive and God is present.
So Christianity is, I'm no critique of doctrine or systematic theology or books or anything like that.
Yeah. But these early Christians are, as they're interpreting scripture, for example, they're doing so with a powerful sense that God is present among them.
So yeah, the Spirit of God is demonstrating the work of the
Spirit in powerful ways that gives them boldness. So anyway, first one, there's just a real belief and commitment to the experiential activity of God in their midst.
That would be the first thing I would say. And all of that related to the fact that they are fundamentally committed to the belief that the one that they're encountering is the one that had been crucified but is now alive again, right?
Which is a pretty crazy, shocking claim. Yeah, it's different. They say it repeatedly. You crucified him,
God raised him from the dead and now all this stuff that you see that we're doing, we're doing because the one that you crucified and raised from the dead has given us the
Holy Spirit. The Spirit has come from you. That's like such a high. Yeah. Think of the boldness you have when you're like, somebody came back from life and he's on our team.
Exactly, that's exactly right. And then there's really, I would say, this
Acts depicts the early church as so, let me just put it this way, as a deep community of friends that's seeking to expand its friendship into people that may not be the norm.
So, you know, you at your church, right? If you're worshiping the risen
Jesus, and that's the foundational commitment you have, let's say, right? And then you are meeting together and you're eating, you're sharing meals, right?
And you're doing life with one another and you're like, man, what we have here is so good.
We want more people to have it, you know? And you're seeking to invite other people. Hey, come hang out with us, eat our food, like, or we'll come to you.
You know, it's like the church is in many ways expanding because it's really deeply committed to actually what was a practice of Jesus in the gospels is this, you know, sharing life together, eating together, drinking together, and more and more people then start to become attracted to that and join the church.
So those are two, I guess. Maybe I could say more, but those are at least two. I want to take a minute and say thank you to the recording service that has made this podcast possible,
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Thank you so much. Now back to the show. Yeah, but there was like some help from leadership.
Like what Barnabas did was so wild. The way that he basically, everybody was kind of afraid, and Barnabas was like, listen, these guys are either, it's gonna show at the end of the day.
Like either they're right and you're wrong, or you're right and they're wrong, and it's going to show. But he was the only one saying that, and he came from a place of authority.
What do we do with that? I mean, how does that apply to today? How do we look back and kind of analyze what was going on back then?
Yeah, I kind of think of it this way. So like in Acts 5, the leader of the Sanhedrin there, they're trying to like stop the church and incarcerate it, because they don't want it to expand.
And it didn't work, because the angel of the Lord let them out. And so they're sort of like, what do we do with this? And when he said something really,
I think profound or interesting for the book of Acts, which is basically, if this movement is from God, and we are trying to incarcerate its leaders, we'll be found to be fighting against God or God fighters.
And Acts then kind of uses that actually as a theme throughout to say, not to say that the early church won't experience suffering and persecution, but that even in the midst of other opponents' best desires or strongest desires to snuff it out, they'll be found to be fighting against God and God's not gonna let the opponents win the day.
So you have, for example, all these prison escapes, where early Christian leaders tried, or not early
Christian, just the angels just let them out. Exactly. It just goes in. They're like, we're trying. They keep getting out.
Doesn't have a key, but just like opens the gate. I mean, that happens three times. Acts five,
Acts 12, and Acts 16. And there are other stories. You would think by the third time, they'd be like, there's something else. Yeah.
Let's just let them do what they wanna do. Where's the mole? Exactly. And there's usually irony, because then it's like, in all those passages, then
Luke says, and the church grew strong and multiplied, and went forth, and even stronger power.
So yeah, my point, I guess, is that when the leader of the Sanhedrin says that in Acts five, it's kind of almost, it's a little bit ironic, because then for the rest of Acts, you know the opponents of the church, maybe they win a battle.
Maybe they inflict suffering and persecution, but they're not gonna win the war in the sense that God's committed to establishing this church.
And if you try to destroy it, you will be found to actually be fighting against God. Yeah. Okay, so we're looking at Acts, and it almost is playing out like a movie with these wild scenes.
Is there any room for like, ah, they didn't really mean that. That was just like symbolic.
Like for example, the eunuch. I love the verse about the eunuch, mostly because I feel like I identify with him.
Just this whole biblically speaking thing is like, how could I possibly understand this if no one explains it to me?
Which is exactly what happens. He walks up and he's like, oh, you're reading Isaiah. That's so cool. Do you understand it?
And this guy's like, nope. Why don't you explain it? And then he does. And then he floats away. What does that mean?
Where did Philip go? So are we just as readers supposed to be like, and that's totally normal?
Or is it like, and then he was just joyful and on a cloud nine.
Like that's a God man. Like what do we do with that? Yeah, totally. I mean, so this doesn't happen to you.
I mean, just yesterday, I was transported, avoided my commute because I was late for work.
Yeah, okay, let me. So part of me, part of me is like, well, a lot of, like if you believe that God can raise
Jesus from the dead, then maybe you can also believe that, God can teletransport people too if he wants to.
But so I say that at the same time, I'm kind of like, really? I, there could be an element of it where Luke is saying, listen, the point of the story of the, part of the point of the story of the eunuch is that this guy is probably an outcast.
He's, I mean, he's got some wealth, but he's not, you know, he's not the norm like for the type of person, you know, he's a surprising character.
And he's reading Isaiah. It's kind of crazy. It's like, I can't understand this. Anyone here that can help me?
Like there's an element of like Luke, I think, and then he basically says to Philip, well, what's to prevent me from being baptized?
There's water, right? You know, it's such a, you know, fun, surprising story where Philip is almost like, you know,
I don't like a pawn. Like God is just like, I'm gonna take you and I'm gonna make sure you meet this guy that's reading
Isaiah so that you can do what needs to be done for this guy. And then I'll let you get on with your business, buddy.
You know, so there's an element of me saying like, okay, I don't know if he was teletransported or whatever, but the point
Luke is probably getting at is to really show, listen, I've got a God saying something like,
I have a very divine providential encounter for you to have with someone you would never otherwise meet.
You would never otherwise encounter and I'm gonna bring you to him and then I'll bring you back so you can do what you were doing before.
Go back to Caesarea or wherever it is and proclaim the kingdom of God. So for me, it really just highlights the surprising but providential sort of encounter that God is bringing
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Take a breath, slow down, and dwell in the good things. Now back to the show. That's fair.
Do you think that there's some sort of like historical element that we should recognize of like, and that was the seed that brought the gospels to Ethiopia?
You know, I don't know if it's necessarily like the, you know, if I could make like the necessarily the specific historical argument, you know, this is how the gospel, you know, or how
Christianity ended up in Ethiopia, but it certainly is like the theological kind of impetus for, you know, taking what is,
I mean, I could show you my Greek New Testament and show you like, Ethiopia really is often on the maps, you know, that are on Bible maps.
Ethiopia often isn't included, you know, it's too far away. Like it's, my point being, it's so geographically far, maybe, you know, it's considered to be exotic or whatever, that Luke is saying, no, it's, you know, the gospel is universal and it's for all people.
It's for Ethiopians, it's for this guy that, I mean, you know, let's not, you know, it's kind of awkward or strange or whatever, right?
But it may not be, you know, the most, the norm in terms of like gender conformity, you know, in terms of having, you know,
I don't know what the details of, you know, his being a eunuch, but you know, those with crushed testicles, we're not supposed to, you know,
Deuteronomy 24, we're prohibited from like going into the temple. I mean, this guy's, you know, so he's, you know, in some ways probably considered to be an outcast.
So it does give us the theological impetus, I would say for the gospel, not excluding, you know, any group, any region, any type of person.
That's what I take away from it, at least. Interesting. Okay, yeah, you bring up a couple of points.
I didn't even consider. Okay, now let's get to the like debut, the speaking in tongues.
I feel like there's like - All the easy questions, huh? Yeah. Real languages, spiritual languages, the fact that everyone can understand, was it just like everyone entered a state and it like superseded understanding, like we're putting such like a, and then they spoke every language, like were they, or was it just like God making us understand, like just the revelation instantaneously?
Like what does, yeah, so many questions on like what you think was happening, what your thoughts are on speaking in tongues, just in general there, and like how it should be applied today, kind of like then, current, future.
Sure, yep. Yeah, I mean, it's, I understand it like this.
There doesn't, it is ecstatic or whatever, but not in the sense
I would say that it's sort of like a spiritual or angelic language. So, you know, as you said before, like it is real languages,
I'm pretty sure. The miracle is that, you know, Luke tells us in Acts 2, 9 through 11, that basically, it was almost the whole table of nations, or the whole world is there with their languages celebrating
Pentecost in Jerusalem. And so the miracle then is, you know, whether it's in speaking or, you know, hearing, that these real languages, right, are like being used to proclaim, as Luke says, the mighty acts of God, but in their heart language or whatever, in their natural tongue.
So the point then is, as I take it, basically, you know, in terms of contemporary application, it's more that what the
Spirit of God is doing is empowering testimony to the work of God, but doing so in a way that is cross -cultural, cross -linguistic testimony.
So the gospel is not something that is, you know, it's gonna start in Jerusalem, but it's going to, there's going to be no language, for Acts, there should be no language, no culture, you know, that is off target or is off base, or, you know, the
Ethiopians that are converted, they don't have to learn, you know, Aramaic or Hebrew or whatever, like it's it, the works of God can be proclaimed in their own language and translated into their own language.
So anyway, that's, I hope that makes sense. But yeah, my simple way of saying it is, these are real languages, their primary application, if I'm thinking about what does this mean for me,
I think is less something about going into a, I don't wanna sound pejorative when
I say this, but you know, going into a prayer closet and trying to speak in ecstatic language, it's more about how is the church in today committed to and devoted to, yeah, something like cross -cultural testimony.
And even the, you know, non -privilege of one culture or one language as if it's superior over others.
I mean, to me, that's one of the crazy things or, you know, surprising things about Acts. There is a privilege that Israel and the
Jewish people have. It starts in Jerusalem, it's rooted within Jerusalem apostles,
Jewish scriptures, but the move that they make in terms of taking this, you know, and translating it into other cultures and regions and ethnic groups is really to, how do
I say it? It doesn't, it minimizes there being one single language within which the work of God can be proclaimed.
And it really opens it up to every single language and every single people group and every single culture, which is fair game for the proclamation of the work of God.
Typical Luke language of being like, all the people are, you know, dedicated to God. Okay.
Do you think that, I mean, they're writing such a high, they saw Jesus, they saw him die, they saw him come back, they've been baptized in the
Holy Spirit. Do you think they thought they would see Jesus come back? Like, do you think that's why they were like, oh my gosh, like we're 60 years old, you know, there's an urgency here for us to like, make the bed before mom gets home, you know, type of, you know, take the chicken out of the freezer and like, make sure it's thawed in time for dinner.
Like, and I say that, you know, in a hilarious way, but like more so of like, well, God's coming back.
So we got to make sure we're ready. And we got, he clearly gave us a task. So do you think that was like fueling their urgency?
That's a tough question. A good one. I do think there is probably a heightened sense of, you know, eschatological expectation or expectation, you know, both awareness that the risen
Christ is here. And he's, you know, as Paul says, I mean, it says that they say this in a variety of places, but he's appointed a day on which he's going to judge everyone.
And so for sure, that return of Christ, I think has a lot of fueling their, the urgency of the gospel proclamation and what they're trying to do.
So on the one hand, Cassian, absolutely, yes. And I think they probably thought there was a possibility that Jesus would come in their lifetime.
On the other hand, you know, in Acts, they're doing a lot of things that even, even if we don't get all the ins and outs and the details that seem, you know, as even to write
Acts, to write the book of Acts, to write history, is to sort of say,
I want to, like, we live in this world and it hasn't ended yet, you know, and so to write a work of historiography in some sense, where the church is saying, here's how we navigate
Judaism, our relationship to the synagogue, and here's how we navigate, you know, Greek and Greco Roman unbelievers, and, you know, things along these lines is sort of like giving us a sense that they are, how do
I say it? Comfortable realizing that we need to do things to actually live in this world.
In other words, Jesus may come tomorrow, but he might not. And if he might not, if he doesn't, then we need to figure out, like, what does it look like to actually be
Christian in, you know, the Roman empire? I see. Wow.
Wow. I don't want to overstate the roles of other women in kind of like the establishment of the church.
And you kind of even talked about Lydia and like her role, like she was basically great in clothes. She opened up her home and she's like,
I've got funds and I've got spaces, like use it. And she really handed it over. How else, like, what about the other women?
What other roles were women playing? Because I feel like it's pretty widely known, you know, it's mostly men, you know, it sounds like are leading.
You know, people argue that it's very, you know, patriarchal in the Bible. Like, let's empower the women.
What were they doing that is maybe like not spoken about widely? Yeah, yeah.
That's something I sometimes wrestle with where it's like you get the first volume, you know, like Acts is the second volume.
Gospel of Luke is the first one. And women surprisingly have a more prominent role in Luke, in my view.
So you have women that are traveling around with Jesus, even referred to as disciples, that are supporting him with their finances.
Of course, you have Mary and Martha. And even if he privileges one form, anyway, you have a variety of women that are responding to Jesus and that Jesus is engaging.
And in Acts, I would almost expect it to be a little heightened from what
Luke has, but instead it's not in the same role. So two things
I wanna say about it. Women are present. You do have clearly women that are in the upper room that are named praying in Acts 1.
You do have, Philip has these prophetesses as daughters. You know, so we're not told, we don't get any stories about them, but we're told that he has these daughters, they're prophets.
You have Joel, the Joel 2 that interprets the Pentecost quotation that says, you know, when the spirit comes upon you, your sons and your daughters will prophesy.
So on the one hand, I don't think Acts has like, you know, it's sort of like saying, this is just a, you know, a men's club and women weren't involved and they didn't, you know, and I obviously already said
Lydia and the other women there too. But I still would expect more to be honest than what there is.
And, you know, the best I can say, I guess, would be that, you know, Luke is inhabiting a patriarchal world.
There are, this is a quote unquote new religion in which sometimes there are fears associated with religions which come from the
East, like Jerusalem, Judea, as being superstitious or exotic or, you know, threatening the cultural mores.
And Luke may have a concern to say, listen, we're not crazy. You know, we aren't just letting, you know, we're not, you know, this isn't just a group of, you know, slaves and women that are, you know, whatever.
I know that might sound derogatory, sorry. But, you know, like we've got the men that are speaking and they're speaking with boldness like rhetoricians and philosophers.
And so in some ways, Luke may, you know, be sort of a product of his time and inhabiting that type of patriarchal culture and wanting to make sure
Christianity looks as if it has some level of social acceptability as this sort of new movement.
But we know that women were involved. Not only Acts tells us, you know, as I mentioned before, Paul's letters give, and the gospels give a variety of testimony.
But yeah, it's a hard question. Because I would expect there to be a little more prominent role for women in Acts than what there actually is.
Yeah, it's like from the other texts that a modern Christian isn't reading, but what you have seen in your studies, have you seen examples of like, the women were just like following around, making the food, cleaning the house, giving the men a place to lay their head?
Like, is there any things that like your studies have shown like the women were actively prophesying, they were actively exercising demons, they were actively standing in the, you know, city square and preaching?
Do we, is that happening? Yeah, I mean, I would say even in Paul's letter, like Paul's letters, you know, speak of women as coworkers.
You know, Romans six, there's a variety of places. Well, Philippians four, two and three. And sometimes we might,
I wonder even approach these texts with our own stereotypes. But, you know, Paul says,
Iodia and Syntyche are coworkers in the
Lord and give them help, right? What are they doing if they're coworkers in the Lord? They're, that means, it doesn't mean that they're probably just sort of, you know, on the margins, but that they're involved in, you know, teaching, church planning, proclamation, whatever the case may be.
Romans 16, you have Phoebe, that's probably the letter carrier of Romans, you know, that Paul speaks of very highly.
So she's probably, if she's the letter carrier, she's probably reading the letter of Romans to the church in Rome as she delivers it on behalf of Paul.
And Junia, you know, preeminent among the apostles, or, you know, as, you know, not one of the 12, but even speaking of her with apostolic language.
So even within the New Testament, there's evidence for this. And then, you know, there's, this continues to be a challenge or a theme or a question, you know, but you have other later texts, the
Acts of Paul and Thecla, where, you know, Thecla says, I don't wanna get married, right?
I wanna be solely devoted to the Lord. And I wanna travel after this guy, Paul, cause he's great. And I, you know, whatever.
And I'm not gonna marry this Roman, you know, like elite guy, and I'm gonna give myself fully to the
Lord and ministry to him. So those texts aren't within our canon, but there's a variety of these texts that would say, yeah, the early church, you know, was navigating, you know, a patriarchal culture and society, but also one that had deeply when the, if the spirit is upon men and women, then both men and women are trying to learn, what does it look like for me to actually use my spiritual gifts?
It seems as if, you know, we have, you have the same spirit that I have. So why shouldn't you be, you know, the early church is absolutely, you know, navigating this in its context.
Okay. But you know, the next question is people saying, well, didn't he tell women to be silent?
How do we? I thought we were just gonna stay on the facts. Now I gotta go to the hardest part, first Timothy two, yeah.
Okay. So just like, it's only an ax podcast. It's not a first Timothy though. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, there are, so let's see how fast I can talk about first Timothy two. Here's my fast, here's my fast take on it.
And it's, there's a lot of conundrums in that passage. Paul explicitly indicates that he's leaving
Timothy in Ephesus to deal with false teaching. And it seems as if the false teachers have making, have made inroads with some of the widows and some of the younger women.
And so there's actually in many ways with within first Timothy, a situation where the way that the concerns that Paul has with the false teaching is paralleled with that, with the women, because the false teachers are making inroads there.
And so Paul is in some ways, I think in first Timothy two saying, listen, if authority has not been delegated to you, don't usurp it to a woman.
And start teaching over those that I've actually given the delegated authority to. So I don't see it as a universal prohibition for women teaching.
I understand it to be a context specific, yeah, for me, for someone that would basically have some false teaching and then be spreading that in a church context.
And Paul saying, no, I do not permit a woman to teach when she has usurped authority that hasn't been sort of like delegated by the church.
So anyway, that was more than a quick version of it, but it's about as quick as I can deal with. But it has to be juxtaposed next to it because then people will be like, well, contradiction right there.
But I think that context adds so much flavor and meaning to it because it sounds like, and correct me if I'm wrong, the
Christian new religion that was popping up was maybe like groundbreaking for women and giving women more rights and opportunities than maybe other religions at that time.
Would you say that's a correct statement? That's hard. I would say that there is sort of a new found, it's hard to compare it necessarily to all the other religions in some ways because Judaism had a role.
I mean, Jesus was obviously was a Jew and formed out of that heritage as he was then even like empowering women and calling women.
So it's hard for me to like position it against the other religions of the day, but I would affirm your insight in the sense that I do think that there are,
I'm sorry, I'm giving all these qualifications. And it's hard like in different local contexts, what was happening in terms of how women were navigating, what might've been like institutional leadership.
I do think though that a variety of women were saying, or were finding, you're in Christ, I'm in Christ, you have the spirit,
I have the spirit. Joel says, men and women or sons and daughters will prophesy and we're then finding this to basically like to push forward the church in some ways, to even say, we have gifts and we can use them.
And this is what the gospel demands of, sorry, just one other thing, even Lydia, when she,
Lydia's story comes right after the Jerusalem Council, where the Jerusalem Council says, it's not ethnic identity that cleanses you to be part of the church, it's the spirit.
And it's faith in God that, so whether you're Jew or Gentile, okay? Well, then the next encounter
Paul has is with Lydia. It's almost like a test case when she has her heart cleansed by faith and then says to Paul, it's in the
Greek text, it says she compelled him or pressed him to come into her home to receive hospitality.
In other words, for the reader, there's almost this sense of her basically saying, all right,
Jerusalem Council said, it's only faith that cleanses. So what should prohibit you from entering into a
Gentile woman's home, you and your missionary team to receive hospitality? Because clearly the spirit says it's okay.
What do you say, Paul? And then Paul sort of validates that by saying, okay, and enters into her home and starts the church in Philippi there.
Interesting, yeah, I mean, do you think women in some way were like, oh my gosh, like we're like being empowered in ways that we've never been empowered.
Like we have opportunities that kind of like, I don't wanna say make us equal to men, but maybe like kind of did. Yeah, I don't know, it's definitely, there is a strong presence.
I mean, Lynn Kohik has written a couple of really good books showing on the ways in which some of our standard stereotypes of women as being only in one sphere.
And I don't wanna be like speaking poorly of that sphere. For women in the ancient world, being in the domestic sphere wasn't always like oppressive per se, but that women played a variety of active roles in early
Christianity in terms of, yeah, in terms of what they did. So it's hard to speak across the board, but certainly some women
I think, yeah, found this to be, would have found it to be empowering. For sure, for sure. And yeah, that sounds amazing.
The really different question is just like, again, the logistics of setting up the church, why Sundays? Was Sundays like something that just became the norm?
Was that just like a popular thing? Like, was that biblically mandated to gather on a
Sunday when they were prophesying Monday through Saturday? Or was that more like a cultural thing that developed that we still adopt it today?
That's a great, yeah, I'm not an expert on that. I mean, the main thing I know is that basically it had to do with the church calendar development in terms of Jesus' resurrection.
So it started to, in my understanding, be sort of like the day of gathering because to memorialize
Jesus' resurrection from the dead on Sunday. I don't know if there was any sort of like setting it off to in terms of as early
Christians were trying to navigate their relationship to Judaism. And so meeting on a
Sunday instead of Sabbath may play a role there as well too, but that's about as much as I know in that regard.
Yeah, or even just like the creation on like the seventh day or I guess that goes along with the calendar.
They have rest. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah, I didn't know if there was like some additional context there, you know, like why we kind of -
Well, I'm sure there is. Yeah, like that could probably be fleshed out in more detail, but not by me at the moment.
No, you fleshed out plenty. So just kind of like applying what we've learned today, you know, reading
Acts in the modern world, what is it revealing about the church today? Like, what should our calling be?
Where should we have courage the same way we read in Acts? Yeah, yeah.
First, so I guess if this was like an invitation, you know, to like give a call to people or whatever, I think like great to read through Acts and just enjoy it as a fun,
I mean, it is scripture, but it's just, it's a fun book, I think, you know? So just like let yourself be immersed in sort of like, you know, a fun, interesting, good story that's about, you know, if you are a
Christian, where you come from in terms of your identity. But secondly, then I would say, you know, it's like really powerful, one of the main themes of the book of Acts that Christians are worshiping a living
God who has raised Jesus from the dead that is not just in a state of passive, you know, do nothing for the next however many years, but is continuing to interact with his people.
So when you pray, the risen Jesus responds in the book of Acts. When you need help for mission, right?
The risen Jesus can send the Spirit to move you forward. Like he can, the risen
Jesus is continuing to be active and present to his people. I find that to be kind of a fun and encouraging sort of insight.
And then I kind of already said this, but, you know, maybe this is one of my schticks, you know, in terms of hospitality, but I do think the book of Acts kind of mandates, okay, in the first century, you know,
Acts maybe could have been more empowering to this gender or that ethnic group or whatever the case may be.
That said, it does provide really like the theological foundation for, you know, the early church, as I've said before, basically becoming a people that is marked by, you know, a welcoming spirit and inclusion of all people.
So even, you know, the early Christians, they're not always hosts. They're not always like, come here and I'll show you hospitality.
They're guests. They go to other people's houses and territory. And so, you know, and often, as you brought up the
Ethiopian eunuch, there are surprising people and surprising encounters. So just the way that, you know, the book of Acts become, you know, tells a story about how, you know, the early church really becomes sort of like a multi -ethnic, multi -gender, multicultural, you know, expansive people of God, you know, that are ultimately there because they believe that there's something about Jesus that's good and right and they want to worship him.
So anyway, those would be my, maybe my three invitations or encouragements as we think about, you know, reading the text in the world that we live in today.
And I think you did a really good job also kind of highlighting the things that are timeless that we can take away in Acts, like how the
Holy Spirit moves and how Jesus, you know, the risen Jesus still shows up today versus the things that like should stay in Acts, like the eunuch and kind of the people being transported, like we shouldn't be like, and transportation is wrapped.
Like that's not the thing that we take out of that. That's really - Yeah, we don't need to cast lots to make decisions maybe, you know, like -
We can leave that there. Yeah, right, yeah. Okay, do you think there's any like modern things that happened today that you think would belong if Acts was being written today?
Like there's so much going on today. What about today would build the foundation of the future's church?
Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I think like Acts is, you know, I'm okay with it ending where it ends, which is in this open -ended way where Paul's still in prison and he's receiving people, you know, that want to come to him.
And then he doesn't tell us, he doesn't give to us, like, let me put it this way. He doesn't tell us what happened to Paul.
He doesn't narrate his martyrdom. And he probably knows what happened, but he ends the story in sort of this like open -ended way.
And I think that's intentional, in other words, to sort of say, you know, the story of, for Luke, the story of Acts still has an open -ended quality, you know, to it.
So, you know, I'm in Chicago, you're in Hawaii, you know, you and your context, me and my context, we look, you know, at our churches and our world and, you know, start to ask the question in our own context, what would it look like for us to be people that are devoted to, you know, worship of the living
Jesus? What would it look like for us to be, you know, sharing our possessions and, you know, engaging in hospitable relationships with others?
What does it look like? You know, on and on it goes in my context, in your context, or, you know, wherever it is that followers of Jesus may be reading the text.
So anyway, I think it's, you know, it's open -ended, Acts is open -ended intentionally encouraging us, you know, to kind of continue the story wherever we might be.
Perfect answer. Dr. Jip, this was phenomenal. This was such like, I feel like you guided us gently through this.
And I mean, there's so much more church history to be had and yet this is so foundational. So thank you for helping us understand like what everything we know today is based off of.
I mean, this is such a perfect explanation. Thank you so much for your time. I really enjoyed this. Oh, thank you.
It's, I love talking about Acts and your questions were fun and fresh. So it's been my pleasure. And so anybody that is like,
I got to know more from this guy, how do they connect with you? Take your class, read your books? Yeah, sure. You can
Google, you can just, you know, type in my name on Amazon. There's a couple of books on Acts. This might be weird, but I have, this is little one.
This is kind of called Reading Acts. You could look at, and I have another book called
God's Acts, which is a little bit more in depth. You can,
I'm not, you can send me an email. Yeah, on my, at jjip at tiu .edu,
or, you know, contact me on Instagram or Facebook or whatever the case may be. That's probably the best way, yeah.
Okay. Yeah, I mean, I contacted you and you answered right away. I'm sorry, what was that last part?
Or you can come to Skokie, Illinois. Come to my house. Actually, don't come to my house. That might be weird. Come to your class.
Do you have classes coming up? There we go. Yeah, I do. So yeah, I actually am teaching a class on Acts at Trinity in the spring semester, so.
Cool. Spring of 2026. That's right, yep. Okay, for anybody listening back at the, whenever you're listening.
Well, this was phenomenal. I appreciate the time. Thank you for coming on. And hopefully we find a reason for you to come back on so we can discuss more of the church history.