A Conversation about Prison Ministry

Joy Barry’s Conversion and Assurance of Salvation

Today on the show, I'm going to be joined by Joy and Paige Berry, two young ladies who God is using both in a writing ministry and in a prison ministry. Stay tuned. Conversations with a Calvinist begins right now.

Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist. My name is Keith Foskey and I am a Calvinist. And I have with me on the show today two ladies. Their names are Joy and Paige Berry, and they're going to be sharing with us about their ministry that they do.

One is producing a magazine called In Pursuit of Jesus, and the other is a ministry to people who are in prison. Ladies, thank you for being here on the show today. It is my highest honor.

To be a part of this today and be on your podcast. Well, thank you for inviting me. Yes,.

I'm very thankful. And I want to tell you, my wife loves you guys and she loves your magazine. And that was part of how we came to know about this. Obviously, I know your brother. He has been in our church for a little while.

And he, I think, mentioned the magazine to my wife, and she got a copy of it and is going to be subscribing. I don't know if she's done that yet. She told me, can I subscribe? I said, yeah, absolutely.

So she's going to be subscribing to the magazine. And so that was what let me know that you ladies were doing ministry. And then I asked your brother about you guys being on the podcast to talk about the magazine, and he said that you were busy doing prison ministry.

So I was like, well, I want to talk about that too. Well, yeah, you weren't busy in prison. But to start with, I just wanted to ask, because I know that we've known each other through friends and I know you girls.

Were y 'all part of HURRY? Was that? Yes. So you knew my wife through that. My wife worked with the HURRY. HURRY is a home education group in Jacksonville. And so you guys knew about that or were part of that.

And so I've seen you over the years, seen you grow up, seen you over the years, but we've not been super close. So I want to ask you a few questions, just personal questions. How and when did you come individually to faith?

Because I know you're from a Christian family. I know your brothers are Christian and you have multiple siblings, right? How many are there? There's eight of us. Oh, okay. Well, I don't know if you know this.

My wife is pregnant. Yes. So we have our sixth and I'm excited because it's going to be like the Brady Bunch, the Foskey Bunch. We're going to have three boys and three girls. So how many are in the Barry.

Bunch? There's eight, but there is eight. Five girls and three boys. Five girls, three boys.

Okay. So did you, I will start with you, Joy. Did you come to faith early or more recently?

I'm 23. I came to the Lord, I believe on the age of 16 to 17. Around the age of 11, God really was working in my heart and I came under conviction of sin, just knew that I was going to go to hell if I died.

So I remember talking to my parents one day and all I remember praying was just, God save me. And it came from my heart, but I don't know that I really knew that it's really walking with the Lord every day and obedience.

And just, I did a lot of self effort trying to make myself do these things that I knew as a Christian you're supposed to do and changing myself. And I'd let a lot more frustration through the years. And so frustration.

And then eventually I just really got into a lot of just depression as the teenage years hit and I was with different things and felt hard to open up and share. And, um, finally I did some with mom about some things and, and so that was good and getting some wanting to walk in victory over some, but I still didn't know.

I still don't have assurance of salvation. I still wasn't like, am I saved? Am I not now? So why am I even asking myself these questions? If I knew the Lord, I would believe that I would really had that joy and victory and peace.

So finally, after much wrestling and just really praying for many months, Lord, you know, show me, reveal yourself to me. Um, I, I've just finally yielded, just prayed. And I was just like, Lord, if I'm saved, give me assurance of salvation.

I've surrendered. I give my life to you. I want to serve you. And if not, yeah, just, just save me. And so I'm really coming up from that. And I was just had freedom, joy, and peace that I never felt before.

And the Bible opened up to me really personal, really real. And it's just been an exciting journey ever since tough and growing sometimes, but also really real and exciting. Well, praise God. Praise God for his salvation.

And you know, it's funny because your name is joy and they say what you said, you have joy finally. And having that joy and salvation, um, you know, I, I, I didn't get saved till I was 19 and I didn't, I would say I didn't grow up thinking I was saved.

I didn't care. I grew up in a situation where even though I went to church, I didn't, it just wasn't a big deal to me. It was just something people did. And God convicted me and brought me to him, um, through actually through an atheist of all things.

God saved me by sitting me next to an atheist at work who was telling me about atheism and why I shouldn't believe in God and all these things. And I grew up believing in God and that sort of confronted me, but you're right.

There was a joy when I, when I, when I was about to turn to atheism of all things. So that really was, I was, he was, he was, he was telling me how dumb it was to believe in God and all these things. And, and it, it really, there was no joy in that.

There was just the fear of nothing, the fear of absence and, and just that fear of, uh, and it was, it was miserable. But when, when God saved me, I remember where I was in my truck, I was driving home and I cried out to God, he saved me.

And, and even though, you know, certainly I didn't, I'm not, didn't become perfect overnight. I'm not perfect now, but there was a joy and a comfort. And, and it's interesting, uh, uh, just to follow up my, uh, the new baby is a, is a boy, but if it was a girl, we were going to name her joy.

We knew that we don't have a boy name. We can't come up with a boy name, but it was going to be, cause we have faith and hope. There's going to be faith, hope and joy. But the Lord.

Has saw fit to give us a boy and we can't name a boy joy. No, he won't fit in. So Paige, tell us your story. Okay. So I am, you know, of course grew up in a Christian home. Um, but around the age of seven, I was with my younger siblings and I'm the oldest and oldest girl.

So, you know, always shoulder that I'm grown up responsibility kind of, um, but with my younger siblings and we listen to this tape about going to heaven. And I was like, you know, I want to go to heaven.

Like I've never made sure I'm going to go to heaven. Of course I don't want to go to hell. So I was like, you know, tell my parents, mom, how do I go to heaven? And mom and dad were like, well, they kind of led me through a prayer and I felt like I was saved.

And you know, it went on, but I'd never seen like, why do I need a savior? It was just like, I don't want to go to hell. Um, and so years from down the road, 10, 11, 12, I began to like, really see like who I was as a sinner, like bad things I did wrong thoughts.

And like, I'm not this perfect Christian kid. Like it looked like on the outside. And it was kind of hard for me to admit, like, when God brings to that point, we don't want to admit that we're sinners deep down.

But, and so I kept excusing it. I was like, well, I'm pretty good. I'm, you know, I look really clean. I look really good. I, you know, I kind of had the good Christian kid feel going on. Um, and then around the age of 14, um, we had some, uh, right.

Uh, early June, late June, there's a group of high school kids that died on their way to the beach. Um, last day at school, a bunch of 17 or 18 year olds. Um, and one of them was a, a cousin of a friend.

So we almost personally knew him. We helped with the funeral. We were part of it. And it just hit me that young people die. And it was like, I could die too. And as soon as I thought that I was like, well, I won't go to, I don't think I'm going to go to heaven.

Like, why would God take me? And it kind of hit me with the reality of like, where am I going to spend eternity? Like what, what's God going to do with a sinner like me if I stood before him, you know, and it kind of shook me.

And I was kind of like, no, I don't know what to do with this. Cause I've quote made a profession, but I realized I'm not a Christian. And, um, a week later we were at church and our pastor was preaching.

And I don't remember anything he said, but two things. And one was that all sinners are great sinners. And that totally demolished, like my good girl, all the good excuses I've been making and that, um, there's room at the cross for you.

And if Jesus had come to die, he would have died for you. Like when he died, he died for you too. If there was, and that just struck me, like all of my, my sins, Jesus cared for me personally enough that he would have died for me.

And I just went home and I just remember surrendering my life to God. It was like, Lord, like, I believe your promise. You said that, you know, if we believe with our hearts, we will be saved and I need you.

And it was just like the peace and the joy of like, Jesus was a personal relationship. Like Jesus had cleansed me and I was made clean in his righteousness and there was no longer anything I did or didn't do, but it was only his righteousness that made me right with God and just so much peace.

Yeah. The peace and the joy. And it's been a growing ever since, you know, whole new relationship, a whole new and God. Yeah. Well, we're not perfect. I'm not. God takes us a long ways through it. Like the first step of faith,.

Right? Yeah. Salvation. Well, when we look at your magazine, I want to look at this in two parts. We're going to look at the magazine first, then we're going to look at the prison ministry. But I do have a question.

Which one have you been doing longer? The prison ministry, actually. Oh, okay. Well, then we're going to be going backwards. We're going to start with the newest. What is it that made you think about this medium as a way to share Christ?

And is that the goal?

In Pursuit of Jesus and a Vibrant Relationship with Christ

What is the goal of the book, I guess, or the goal of the magazine? The goal is to share Christ, but mainly to encourage girls, younger ladies, to pursue the Lord with their whole heart, to have a relationship with Jesus Christ, a vibrant one, a real one, not just,.

I grew up in Christianity, like a Christian home, like we did, because we saw a whole lot of that when we were growing up. And I can do other good things. And I can act like I'm a Christian. And maybe even I am a Christian.

But I missed out on God, the power of Christ in our lives. That's just kind of dead. And we just go through the motions. But we miss out on God's power, and knowing the Lord personally. So that's kind of the purpose behind this was to give girls like a hunger and a thirst.

For the Lord. That's why it's called In Pursuit of Christ. In Pursuit of Christ, Discovering the Heart of Your Savior. Now, I was looking through this copy, because this is a copy that Jennifer has. I noticed that you have other contributors as well.

Who are the people that are contributing to the magazine? I noticed a few names I might recognize. So we just kind of pull from people.

We know. It's not like we have a set team of writers yet. And we're still kind of, this is only our second year of doing it. So we're just pulling from people that we know would have have a heart kind of like ours to share Jesus with other girls.

And so out of that for different topics, we're like, Hey, will you write on this? And if they're like, No, I don't feel led to write like, Okay, that's fine. And we'll, you know, just kind of praying to see who God would give us to help write.

That's kind of how we go about it. We do pray. These are both in prayer. And yeah, who do you want to write? And how? What do you want to say? Like, I don't even know, sometimes the next topic, I'm like, Would you give me the next one?

What do you want to say these girls? Because it's his magazine. That's what I call it. Yeah. Yeah. Now, from. Okay,.

So these are the two latest you said? Yeah, two of the most recent. What would be a particular article that you would say, I'm really proud of? I know you're proud of everything. Obviously, it's like, it's all you know, your your work.

What would you say? In this most recent one? This is I'm really proud. I hope people read this and what what's the content? What is something that either one of you can answer that?

This one was on salvation. So why you need a savior. And I think one of my favorite ones was the one, this one by Ruthie, one of the girls, she wrote on having three mirrors, mirrors of your heart. And the first one is how you see yourself.

Second one is how some of those around you. The first one is how those around you see you. Then the second is how you see yourself. And the third is how Christ sees you. Because I feel like it's very real, how sometimes we think some more highly of ourselves than we really are.

Yeah. And then those around us, you know, they think even better of us, then we kind of know, because we know some of the dark things we've done, but like, you know, they just stay low. But Christ, how he flips that around, and we get into his word, we see, oh, wow, I am not this good person that I thought I was.

Even if I've never done, you know, bad outward things, I have thought all the same, you know, I had those same tendencies, desires. Yeah. And to flip that around that you that's, you're a sinner, you you have broken God's law.

And he's righteous. And because of his righteousness, because he is righteous, he has to be holy. Yes. But also showing the magnitude of his love that he would even consider and choose to die and give his life for sinners.

That's right. And, and save us. So.

I hope that makes sense. No, it makes perfect sense. Paige, did you have one that you particular?

That was a favorite of both of ours. I was gonna mention that too. One of our desires for this one going into a new year was that girls would know, like, that anything we talk about stemmed out of having a relationship with Jesus Christ.

And until we're in that relationship, and cleansed by his blood, and fully receiving him through salvation, there can be no relationship. And so just bringing it back to the beginning of like, why do we, why did Jesus even die?

What is salvation? All of that. Absolutely. That was a very strong desire in most of our hearts that we understand that, you know, that girls all over realize that we can't grow in anything with God. We can't just know God.

Yeah, you have to have that foundation. Of, you know, receiving him before we can move forward.

When we, thinking through the magazine, and I remember one particular part that I saw was this one. It was Champions of the Faith, and it was Francis, is it Havergill? Yeah. Okay. Now I had not known about this person.

Obviously, this is a little bit of a biography here. Who is the author.

Of this one? I am. I write the biography. So what is it about her that made you want to talk about her? Well, how she grew up in a Christian home, but she struggled until to find the Lord Jesus Christ as her personal Lord and Savior.

And it was a struggle, son, you know, because I think for some people it's automatic. For some other people, it's a journey. But to show other girls that it is still real, however it is, and that you, you know, other people in the past have gone through the same things and come to find the Lord as their personal Lord and Savior and a vibrant relationship with him.

When did she live? You said in the past. I didn't get... 1800s, 1860s, I think. And she was saving. She was 17, right? Mm-hmm. I think so. Her father was a minister of our friends. And she's a famous hymn writer.

Has written lots of many famous hymns like Take My Life and Let It Be. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting, you know, because we think.

About a person like that being in the, you know, over 150 years... Well, you said 1800, so it's 200 years ago. I think I'm not good at math, but... Something like that. And we think about, you know, the struggles that she went through, the struggles that people go through today, and some of them are the same.

Like you said, struggling with that idea, the identity in Christ, knowing that you're saved not by your own works, but through the works of Christ. What do you think is unique, and being young women today, what do you think is a unique struggle that ladies face today that maybe wasn't faced by previous generations?

What's something that, you know, not to get too personal, but maybe something that you guys see that y 'all have had to deal with that you don't think the previous generations have had to deal with? I have one in my mind, but I will let y 'all go first.

I'll let you answer first. It's a good question. I think one, a big one, I don't know, for me would probably be like the ability to push it aside with all the technology and all the great distractions we have of today.

There's a great easiness to kind of excuse it and just fill our mind with other things and not worry about it. To a point, of course, you know, but that was great. It's so easy. There's more, I feel like, distractions to keep us away from having to deal with it and think about it than maybe in their day and age they had to deal with, is one.

Are you talking about just like any common struggles? Well, I was saying,.

Struggles unique to now, because I have one in my mind, like I said, and it's similar to what you just said, but is there something, you know, if you were talking to a girl today, and it was a young girl who is maybe struggling with her identity in Christ or something like that, and you would say, here's something that your parents probably didn't have to deal with.

Can you think of anything, like I said, that y 'all have faced that maybe you think your parents.

Didn't have to deal with? I think sometimes the pressures of our society have increased more, and they increase more on girls, even like good Christian, you know, like this is what good Christians do, or this is what, something like, you know, a boxed formula of what it should look like, and so we kind of put those either legalistic rules on people, or we put the, just throw it off and be yourself and be wild and be the, you know, who you really are, and neither is really right, per se, but I think sometimes those messages from outside coming in.

Yeah, we talk about, in our church, we talk about two ditches that are so easy, it's so, you know, it's easy to fall into the ditch of legalism, it's easy to fall into the ditch of licentiousness, and both of them are equally bad, because both of them lead you away from the gospel, both of them lead you away from trusting in Christ, and so yeah, when you said it's either too much one way or too much the other way, and we're not saying we want to be middle of the road or ride the fence, but there has to be a balance, and some things that are often seen as being this is the only, you know, the way.

So when we talk about what I was going to say, I'll throw mine out there, I'm gonna get your thoughts. I would say that something that I didn't have to deal with, and I know I'm quite a bit older than y 'all, but when I was a kid, there was no record of what we did.

You know, Polaroid film was about all that we had, and now it's like everything is filmed in stereophonic, you know, high definition film, and it's like our lives are spent in the view of other people.

I mean, even this very thing, we're filming ourselves having a conversation, so I'm a little bit, in a sense, I'm feeding the beast as we're saying it, but I think that one of the things that, you know, for, you know, I have a 23-year-old daughter, maybe she's turned 24, okay, so I have a 24-year-old daughter, and then I have a nine-year-old daughter.

That's the next, that's the wide spectrum, because our youngers are really young, and those, and I think about what my nine-year-old is going to have to face six years from now when she's 15, and she's, you know, starting to get her, maybe get her restricted driver's license or whatever, and that's when things really, you know, you start growing up at that point, having responsibilities, and I'm afraid, not in the sense of I don't trust the Lord, I trust the Lord, and I'm not fearful in the sense I'd live in a hole or something, but I wonder what life is going to be, you know, it's Instagram culture is the day of today, which means you have to look a certain way, and this is what's expected, and it's not, it's not what should be what drives us, and I wonder, you know, what she's going to have to face that, you know, her mother and I didn't have to face those things.

There's no such thing as.

Instagram. Yeah, and while I feel like identity is such a big thing in our culture, because there's so much fed in of what you should be, what you should look, what you should do, what, I mean, there's just, it's constant, like, you pick up your phone every minute, and you're seeing what he does, and she does, and they do, and be what they are, and there's so much coming in that it's hard to receive what God says of us and who we are.

And it feeds our covetous nature, too. It does. Look at that new truck he just got. Can you, I mean, don't I deserve a truck like that? Yeah, for sure. Or look at this, you know, how beautiful their wedding was.

The new cell phone or something. Yeah, that's one thing I see a lot of times. Like, my wife and I, we got married in this church. We were actually the first ones to get married in this church, and because the building had just gotten built, and we didn't even have enough money to cater our reception.

So we literally did a potluck wedding where people brought food, and we had just enough money to buy a wedding cake, and so we did have a wedding cake, but the wedding cake fell on the way here. Oh, no.

Really? So, but it actually turned out as a blessing. Publix was the one who made our cake, and they called us and said, hey, it fell. We'll fix it, and we'll get it there in time, and we'll give you the money back.

So we're like, yay. So we have this fun story, but literally, we had, like, grocery bags for luggage for our honeymoon. We had no money. We didn't know anything, and you see people with these weddings now.

It's like $20 ,000, $30 ,000, you know, like massive things, and it really does. It creates that sort of green-eyed sort of, you know. You said green-eyed monster, 10th Amendment violation.

I know. But people are saying, though, even though you were very little, you had so many special memories from those things, like the Publix. That really stands out in your mind, and my mom and dad are the same way.

I mean, just different things. Maybe not their wedding, but different things in their life that, yeah, they didn't get the best chip on life, you know. They maybe, in other people's eyes, got a lower chip, but it's like they wouldn't trade that for anything because of the memories, the people they got to spend it with, the time together.

Yeah. And not growing up, like you said, I think that's so key because sometimes, as the pressure from, especially, like, young women, I know, guys, I'm sure, faces, too, but, like, it can just get so hard sometimes, and mom and dad bringing it back to, like, it's okay.

You know, that's not what you have to. Yeah. Relieving that pressure, helping. Ultimately, it's found in Christ because he is the only one that can give you wisdom and the power to walk over that in victory.

You know, like, I don't have to live under those pressures, but it's a process. It's.

Growing, for sure. And it is good to have a good mom and dad. I know you guys have a wonderful mother and father, and to have people there that will point you to Christ rather than point you to something ridiculous or something that we can't live up to, some artificial standard, you know.

And then even as believers, still realizing the, yeah, the pressure that still comes in. You know, sometimes I just got to turn off Instagram for a little bit, turn off the social just for a little bit, just so that's not the only thing that I'm hearing, because it affects us way more than we think.

It's like, yeah, now I want that, and now I want to look like that, and now I want to do that, and now I want to, and it totally takes my focus. I spent 30 minutes, you know, getting my video just right, an hour, whatever it is.

And yeah, it just steals so much of what.

Ultimately could be used so much for God as a believer. Amen. So if somebody wants to get a copy of the magazine or subscribe to the magazine, can you tell them how to do that?

So right now it's just cash or check, because we don't have a website up yet, but we are working on that, and hopefully here soon we'll be having that up, and so then you can pay online. Okay,.

All right. So if somebody wants to get a copy of the magazine, they can create a subscription,.

They can send you an email address, send you an email. Yes, perfect. So my email is jannaj, and that's spelled J-A-N-N-A-J 109 at gmail .com. Okay, and they just let you know.

They're interested in that, and you'll let them know how to move forward from there. And even for the info contact, whatever, yeah. Wonderful, wonderful. Well, that is, again, the magazine is called In Pursuit of Jesus and Discovering the Heart of Your Savior.

That is the title of all of it. Make sure I'm right. And how often does a new one come out? Quarterly, every three months. Okay, every three months. And it is filled, like I said, my wife and I were reading through it.

It's filled with really good articles, and it's certainly a lot of information to consume. And I encourage you, if you are interested, especially if you have a girl in your home, and you want to have something maybe you can do devotions with, or something to go along with your regular Bible reading, would definitely recommend your magazine to them.

All right, so let's talk for a minute about the prison ministry, because that is often also something that you guys do, which I wanted to highlight today on the show. Journey to the Heart, is that the name of it?

Journey to the Heart in Florida Prisons

Yes, that is the name of the ministry. All right, tell me a little bit about it, Joyce, or Paige, I'm sorry. No,.

So Journey to the Heart is kind of like a discipleship program. It's about a week long, and they do them for normal people to go to, too. So it's like a ministry, but then about 10 years ago, they actually took the ministry to the prisons, and began taking it to the inmates in the prison.

And so how I actually got into it was, I went on a journey myself. It wasn't a prison, though. It wasn't a prison. But God just did a lot in my heart, and I was like, wow, like how much more I came to know who God was.

And in seeing who God was, really, things in life begin to fall into place. We begin to view life as God sees it, and God sees you, and just receiving who God says you are. And it just changed so much of my life.

And when I heard that they took it to the prisons, too, to the inmates, I was like, wow, I'm going to know how to be a part of this. And so that's how I got involved in it. Some friends I knew did it, or whatever.

And it has changed my heart, just being able to see what God has done in the inmates' lives. I've been with them about four.

Years now, and we go twice a year into the prison. Okay. So I want you to explain to me a little bit of how it works, because I know when I was talking to your brother—shout out to Stephen. I know you're going to be listening.

Stephen's my buddy, and I enjoy him. But as he was telling me, he was like, you guys had gone. So do you go and stay on-site? Yes. How does that work? So we actually.

Go down to the Florida prisons, down in Ocala, Lake Butler, that general vicinity. Stark and all that? Stark, yeah. And so we actually stay at a Christian camp in Melrose. Nice guy, Christian guy. It's actually called Lake Swan.

And he lets us use his whole camp for a very cheap price. It's like his part of the ministry. Nice. And so he lets us stay there. We get our breakfast and dinner there. Really nice place on a beautiful lake.

And then from there, we drive every day to the prison. Spend all day in the prison, and then we drive back late at night. Now, Joy, you were there as well? Yes. You both went? Yes. Okay. Now, have you been doing it as long as—?

No. She has done it for several years. I went on my first actually into the prisons this past time. Okay. I helped on the kitchen crew for a couple times, because we have a whole kitchen crew that can cover meals.

Were you afraid first time you went? I was a little bit. Okay. I was, too, back in the day. That's what I was going to ask, because—. Nervous?

Well, I'll give you a little bit of history. I have step-parents, because my mom and dad got divorced when I was younger. And my step-dad's father was a cook and guard at the prison. Wow. He actually knew a lot of famous inmates, people that he would tell us stories.

He'd come home and tell us about it. And so I grew up sort of in and around that. He actually lived on a—. There was some trailer's homes that they had built a little connection. It wasn't connected to the prison, but it was right near the prison.

Okay. So I would go spend the night. You'd be one fence away from guys that are walking around. Yes. Oh, my goodness. And I remember being seven, eight years old going, I really hope those fences are—.

Work. Yeah. So it was, for me, it was a little frightening. So I can't imagine. So you guys went behind the—. Yes.

The doors. We go through security. It takes about an hour to get everybody through. Everybody gets a personal PVA. You stick on—. What's that? A personal body—. Personal body alarm. So literally, you push the button on that, and everybody comes running to the place of that.

Officers leave everything else and come. So it's like a worst-case scenario if you feel threatened. I've never been in that situation, but it's—. You have to remember you're in prison. Yeah, absolutely.

And the first time I went in, I remember going through the gates closed behind you. Next gate closes, and it's like, wow, I'm actually in here. Because you're locked in just like them. You are, yeah. You're in there with them.

But just as you get to know them, you sit down. I'm sitting next to whoever. I just sit here and talk with them. But how much—. I mean, it's safe in there. Prison, I feel like, is a very safe place in our day and age.

But realizing their hearts are like our hearts. They are—. We're just—. We're the same kind of people. Their centers, your centers. We are.

Now, I legitimately don't know the answer to this question, and I'm curious. Are you going to only the women, or are you going to women and men? Yes. We just go to the women's. Okay. And they just go to the men's.

All right. Because the way you said it just now, you said you'd be sitting next to anybody. I'm like, I hope you're not sitting next to—.

If I were in the men's prison, I would feel threatened. I know I would.

So, when the ladies see you coming in to minister to them, is the overall atmosphere among them thankful that you're there, or are they being forced to go in there?

It is. This is a total voluntary program. They can come if they want to. A lot come for the wrong reasons, though. A lot of times, it's to get a certificate, which will give them a higher points or grade in the prison.

A lot of times, it's—.

Yeah, like for probation or parole.

Right. Or get better favors or whatever. So, they're not always there for the right reasons. So, there's kind of that—there's often resistance to that aspect. Like, I'm here, but I don't really want to be here, but I'm going to be here anyway kind of thing.

So, it's total voluntary, but it varies by prison. Some prisons, God's just done more of a work, and even in leadership, based on how the ward and the officers are, is how often the inmates are. So, it just varies.