April 20, 2026 Show with Kurt M. Smith on “A Biographer of George Whitfield Reviews the Film: ‘A Great Awakening'”

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I don't know how many of you have seen the movie A Great Awakening, which tells the story of George Whitefield, the 18th century gospel preacher, through the eyes of Benjamin Franklin, one of our founding fathers.

But I recently saw this film, absolutely fell in love with it, and knew right away that I had to come on to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and give an enthusiastic review of this film.

And I knew exactly who I wanted to conduct the review.

I couldn't think of no one better to conduct the review than my guest today, who happens to be a biographer of George Whitefield.

His name is Kurt M. Smith, and he is author of the book Thundering the

Word, The Awakening Ministry of George Whitefield. And my brother,

Kurt Smith, is also the pastor of Providence Reformed Baptist Church in Rimlap, Alabama.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Kurt Smith.

Hey, Chris, it is good to be back with you, brother. I was just thinking how ironic that the last time

I was on your show was in the fall of 2020, when my biography on Whitefield had just come out.

Amen. So Whitefield was our subject the last time we talked, and we're taking him up again as our subject.

So it's great to be with you, brother. Amen. And by the way, I want to let my listeners know that I am conducting today's program in loving memory of two people who greatly loved

George Whitefield's writings, and the first of which is my dear friend who has been in glory since 2009,

Nigel Stone. He entered into eternity with Christ at the age of 80, and Nigel Stone is the brother who first introduced me to George Whitefield when he had heard that I was having difficulty embracing the doctrines of sovereign grace.

And he approached me one day after worship service, or perhaps it was before, I don't remember.

It was in the church building. And he said to me in his deep British accent,

I understand you've been having difficulty embracing the doctrines of sovereign grace.

Read this. And he handed me George Whitefield's letter to John Wesley on election, which has been republished by Chapel Library.

I'm sure that there are a number of other ministries who have republished that as well. So I am dedicating this program in loving memory of Nigel Stone, and also my dear friend who had been a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio a number of times,

Al Stein, who at one time was the pastor of the

Neighborhood Assembly of God in Belmore, Long Island, New York. And he, although not only a pastor in a

Pentecostal congregation and denomination, and even a bishop in the

Assembly of God, an overseer of all the Assembly of God congregations on Long Island, Al Stein became eventually, by the grace of God, a thoroughgoing

Five -Point Calvinist and was a great lover of George Whitefield, and while on vacation had the great honor of his life to stand behind a pulpit of George Whitefield and was photographed there.

And he has been in eternity with Christ since 2015.

And I dearly miss both of those brethren, and looking forward to see them again someday face -to -face.

And that was a far more tragic circumstance when Al went home to be with the

Lord. He was killed in an automobile accident and was a fairly young man at the time.

I believe Al was about 12—I'm sorry, about 10 years older than I am.

And so, wonderful brethren, and both of whom would have loved to have heard today's show, but where they are now,

I'm sure that the Iron Trip and Zion Radio doesn't even enter their minds. They are gazing into the eyes of their

Savior right now. But before we go into this wonderful movie that you and I both loved, please tell our listeners something about Providence Reformed Baptist Church there in the wonderful city of Remlap, Alabama.

Well, Providence Reformed Baptist Church, we will be actually celebrating our 10 -year anniversary at the end of this summer, this year.

We—the church was started back in August of 2016. And so, yeah, so this year marks our 10 -year anniversary.

We are an associate member church of the

Southeastern Association of Confessional Baptist Churches and have been with the

Southeastern Association since our church started.

So, very thankful for that, very thankful for that association. But yeah, we are a confessional

Baptist church committed to the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith. That's our doctrinal standard. Where we're located geographically in Alabama, we're 43 minutes northeast of Birmingham, but we are actually atop one of the many

Appalachian foothills, as they're called. And specifically, we're on Pine Mountain. And it's very beautiful scenery up here where we're located.

But I'm just very thankful for the Lord calling me here because I'm originally from Georgia and so—and just been here in Alabama ministering

God's Word for the last 10 years. So, very thankful. Praise God.

And I only wish that every other church was as clear in their doctrinal position as your church is.

I get requests every week from people all over the United States and all over the world asking for church recommendations.

And it's not all that easy to give church recommendations because many churches are woefully unsatisfactory in the details on their theology and their websites.

But right there in your URL is prbc1689 .org.

So, you know right away where Providence Reformed Baptist Church stands.

And for those of you who are listening and don't know what I'm talking about, the

Confession of Faith to which Providence Reformed Baptist Church in Renlap, Alabama, adheres is the 1689

London Baptist Confession, the favorite confession of many, if not most, professedly

Reformed Baptist churches. Well, we are going to now enter into a review of this wonderful movie.

It is starring Jonathan Blair as George Whitfield and John Paul Sneed as Benjamin Franklin.

And one of the things that I could not get out of my mind throughout the entirety of watching the movie is how much

John Paul Sneed, the actor portraying Benjamin Franklin, looks like my late friend that I mentioned earlier,

Nigel Stone, who first introduced me to George Whitfield through giving me that reprint of George Whitfield's letter to John Wesley on election.

I mean, I'm talking uncanny resemblance. They could be identical twins if they were standing next to each other.

Well, they're not the same age, though. Nigel was a bit older than John Paul Sneed. But when he played

Ben Franklin as an older man, they were identical, really.

I couldn't see any difference. But this movie, as I already said in the beginning, is a portrayal of George Whitfield through the eyes of Benjamin Franklin.

And I think it'd be wise for us just to get out of the way, since we both really love this movie, to get out of the way right up front some of the historical inaccuracies that are in the film.

We've got to be honest about this. The first of which was an inaccuracy that did not bother me at all because it was in my favor as a

Baptist. They depict George Whitfield being baptized as a believer by immersion and then later baptizing other new converts by immersion.

And George Whitfield was an Anglican. And you probably know the quote better than I do.

But at one point in his ministry, he actually lamented that many of his converts to Christianity were becoming

Baptists. And he said something to the effect that all my little chicks are becoming ducks.

Meaning, you know, a duck referring to a Baptist. But maybe you know the exact quote.

But first, tell us about that. You are in agreement that this is not the actual way that George Whitfield was himself baptized, nor did he baptize others in this way because he never, to my knowledge, ceased being an

Anglican. Yeah, that is correct. He never did cease being an Anglican.

He was, as Reformed Baptists, as we would fully subscribe to the

Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, George Whitfield fully subscribed to the 39 Articles of the

Church of England. And he never once veered from that for the 34 years of the entirety of his ministry.

He was a committed Anglican confessionally. Although the 39

Articles never mention a mode, I don't think. No, no, no, they don't.

It actually doesn't even use the word for infants. It says that children should be welcomed to the baptismal font or something to that effect.

And it doesn't mention their age, because we would baptize children, too, if they repent and believe. Right. That is true.

But yeah, Whitfield, yeah, he was a committed Paedo -Baptist for sure. And, of course, as you mentioned a moment ago, his very famous lament over the many converts that were brought to faith in Christ under his ministry.

He was referring to those actually in colonial America. And he was referring to what was called the separatist movement that started in New England during the

Great Awakening. And the separatist movement was so called because you had all of these men and women coming to faith in Christ during the

Great Awakening. And certainly in 1740, fundamentally under the ministry of George Whitfield then.

And they were separating themselves from the congregational churches that where they had been a part of.

And that's the reason they were called the separatist movement, because they were separating out of the established congregational churches.

They were starting their own churches. And there was a branch of the separate movement that became convinced of Baptist principles.

And they would be called separate Baptist. And so it was the separate

Baptist that George Whitfield was very specifically referring to as, you know, my little chicks have become ducks.

Because the separate Baptist actually were actually more influenced and more impacted by Whitfield's ministry than any others among the evangelical

Christians at that time and that period in colonial

America. The second historical inaccuracy, which bothered me more than the first, the first didn't bother me at all.

But the second one bothered me because it does rub against my soteriology and also would be in contradiction to Whitfield's soteriology.

In that he, while evangelizing coal miners, approaches them and these are strangers to him and these are not

Christians he's speaking to. These are lost people. And in his efforts to lead them to Christ, he tells them that God created them and loves them.

And this would not have been something that Whitfield would say in evangelism at this point in his life, because he was certainly by then already a thoroughgoing

Calvinist, was he not? Yeah, yes, he was. He definitely was that.

Yeah, Whitfield was converted to Christ during the week of Easter 1735.

And in the latter part of that year, he went back home to Gloucester, England, which is his native home.

And he took up residence with the mayor of Gloucester, Gabriel Harris.

And for two years, he just devoted himself to reading his

Bible every day and reading the commentaries of Matthew Henry, as well as other Puritans.

And so it was from the very beginning of his Christian life, through the writings of Matthew Henry and a few other

English Puritans, that Whitfield was introduced to the

Reformed faith and, of course, very specifically, the Doctrines of Grace. And he became a convinced

Calvinist, really, from the outset of his new Christian life.

So when you speed up the time frame of where he goes to Kingswood, which was a district of Bristol, England, where it had a coal mining industry there.

And that's, of course, what they're depicting in the movie. Yeah, I mean, by that time, in that period in Whitfield's life, he is most assuredly a very convinced

Calvinist. And no, he would not have addressed the sinners there, the coal miners, in the way that they have him addressing them in the movie, where he's just saying, basically,

God loves you, just in a very general kind of way.

I mean, Whitfield addressed them as he did all sinners with giving them the bad news before he gave them the good news.

And that is how his evangelistic sermons were. He called them to repent of their sins.

He explained to them what they were as sinners before a holy God and under the wrath of God and that they needed to flee

God's wrath. And that flight could only take place through faith in Jesus Christ and by the blood and righteousness of Christ could they come and be saved and be made right with God.

Whitfield was very, very clear in his gospel preaching about that.

And I will say that while the movie does make an embellishment like that, overall, when they depict

Whitfield preaching, for the most part, what you hear

Jonathan Blair proclaiming are actually the actual words of Whitfield's actual sermons, which is what really surprised me.

And, of course, pleasantly surprised me, because one thing that is certainly a great strength of this movie is that since they do not veer far, far away from Whitfield's actual sermons, but keep them at least 98 percent accurate, you actually hear the gospel of Jesus Christ in this movie.

And frankly, you hear it with such clarity that I don't think I've ever seen a major motion picture, you know, communicate the gospel of Jesus Christ that clear.

Yes, I very rarely get teary -eyed in movies, and I must confess that when

I was hearing Whitfield preach, there were tears streaming down my face.

And you were right, because you had told me before I even saw the film, that there was that scene when

Whitfield is preaching to the coal miners, and those that were still in the coal mine were hearing him preaching and emerging out from the coal mine in utter fascination to what they were hearing and wanting to know what the source of this voice was.

And I could not help but shed some tears while watching that.

So I don't want to let people get the wrong impression that that entire scene is not worth seeing.

In fact, the scene when he begins preaching is worth the entire admission to the movie.

I wholeheartedly agree. Yeah, the scene in Kingswood with the coal miners.

And then, of course, when they show him in 1739, which would be actually his second visit to colonial

America, but when he's there in Philadelphia and they show the whole scene of him preaching there in the city of Philadelphia.

And, of course, that's the scene where they picture Benjamin Franklin, who's more interested in wanting to see mathematically, scientifically, how many people could hear

Whitfield preach. But that whole scene in the way they depict it, and, of course, the sermon that he delivers, that just brought tears to my eyes, too, because I was like, this is

Whitfield. This is his preaching, his sermon. So, yeah, they really pulled that off very well.

And as a Christian, I mean, you just could not help but to be moved to tears.

Now, just in case there are people listening, especially if they're not theologically

Reformed like you and I, in case they are puzzled why we would be not pleased with that one depiction of Whitfield evangelizing lost people by assuring them that God loves them, why is that something that would displease a thoroughgoing

Calvinist like yourself and like me? Well, because what is so stereotypical in that kind of evangelistic presentation is, and I don't recall if they had

Whitfield actually using this language, but what is so stereotypical is that when you say to lost sinners,

God loves you, while it is true, biblically true, that God does have a benevolent love for all of mankind, and that's the very argument that our

Lord himself makes in Matthew chapter five in regards to loving our enemies. You know, because Jesus says,

I mean, you know, your father in heaven causes his son to rise on the just and the unjust.

He sends rain on the righteous, the unrighteous. And so there is a benevolent love that the

Lord does have for all his creation, but that love is different, distinctively different than the love he has specifically set upon those he has chosen to save.

There is his saving love, and then there is his general love. But how a lot of evangelism is presented, and certainly, you know, in the times we've grown up in, and even somewhat before, it is this idea that God loves everyone unconditionally.

So there is no distinction. You know, God loves this lost, unregenerate sinner no differently than he loves the sinner he has saved in Christ.

You know, the love is the same. Well, to communicate that, I can remember hearing

R .C. Sproul once talk about this. If you communicate to a lost, unregenerate sinner that God loves them no different than he loves his own people, well, then the lost, unregenerate sinner is going to reason, well, then why come to faith in Christ?

What's the big deal in being saved? Because if he loves me no different than he loves a

Christian, then, you know, getting saved, what a waste of time that is.

Especially if the phrase is added, Jesus Christ loves you and died for you.

Now, Whitefield doesn't say this in the movie, nor did he ever say it in real life, when he's talking to unbelievers, that is.

But when you add that, that even further cements the mind of someone listening, well, what do

I need to fear? If he loves me and actually died for my sins, then, okay, thanks.

Let me be on my way now. Thanks for that good word of encouragement. Yeah, that's exactly right.

And as we know, that so contradicts the way that the gospel is unfolded in the

Scriptures themselves. You know, because I just think about Paul's epistle to the Romans, and, you know, when

Paul speaks of this gospel, he's not ashamed of, because it's the power of God and the salvation to them that believe.

Well, before Paul gets to, you know, the good news of the gospel, what makes the gospel such great news, he starts with the very, very bad news.

That the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth and unrighteousness.

And so starting at Romans 118 to Romans 3 and verse 20, Paul, by the inspiration of the

Holy Spirit, is exhausting, he is exhausting his teaching on making it very clear that man by nature is a sinner under the wrath of God.

And he therefore has no hope whatsoever of saving himself and making himself right with God.

And the sinner needs and must hear this.

And of course, that is what George Whitefield never shied away from in making that very clear and very plain to the people he preached to, whether, you know, whether they were in England or Scotland or Wales or Ireland or in colonial

America. He was very clear about that. Now, just, I don't want to belabor this whole issue, but just one last word on it.

There is no instance, there's no example in Scripture of anyone evangelizing a lost person by assuring them that God loves them.

Is that anywhere in the Bible? I've never seen it. No, no, that no, no, it isn't.

And and while I can, I can definitely hear, I can hear some fellow Christians arguing very quickly and John 316 and going there.

But, you know, here's here's what's interesting, though, about John 316. Is that John 316 does not begin and end with the very first clause of that verse, which says, for God so loved the world, that's not the beginning and the ending of the verse.

You know, it is for God so loved the world that. He gave his only begotten son that.

And I'm emphasizing that because that's the purpose clause that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So the love that our Lord is specifying there, the love of God for the sinner in John 316 is the love of God for the sinner.

For whom Christ was given and who in turn believes in Christ.

So it's the saving love of God. And here's the other very important thing.

Contextually speaking, Jesus was was saying that. To a

Jew, he was saying it not just to a common Jew. He was saying it to a

Pharisee. Namely, Nicodemus. So nothing could have been more shocking to the hearing of that Jewish man, that Jewish religious leader,

Nicodemus, than to hear that God so loved.

The world that is not just Jews, but Gentiles.

You know, and the way in which he has shown this love for Jew and Gentile is in the giving of his only begotten son.

And the son was given for who he was given only for those who believe in him.

Amen. So yeah. Yeah. So so John 316 is is really.

That is not a good verse for for for for for these for these fellow

Christians to to run to to say, but see, it does say he loves the whole world unconditionally.

You know, there is there is no distinction, et cetera, et cetera. Now, I am hoping that we are not just pouring a bucket of cold ice water on the excitement that people may be having to go see this movie because these criticisms didn't stop me from loving it.

And and is there is there any other critique that you have before we move on to why we love the movie and not that we're going to belabor what we disliked about it?

But is there anything else that you can think of that you'd like to critique? Well, one thing in particular that I would very much like to critique was was the the whole the whole narrative in the movie of of Whitfield's conversion to Christ.

What they got right was the struggle that Whitfield was having, a struggle that lasted for six months, a struggle that did literally put him in the bed for six weeks.

Whitfield almost killed himself to save himself.

He he he wasn't. And this is in my biography of Whitfield. I compare

Whitfield to Martin Luther in this in this respect. That Whitfield was doing exceedingly more than any member of the

Holy Club there in Oxford along that was the

Wesley brothers and some others. He was doing so much more than any of those men were doing to save himself.

And so I did appreciate the fact that the movie got that right and they depicted that correctly.

And I was so glad because I was really anticipating how were they going to show this conversion.

So that part they nailed it. But the part that I have to critique and say, well, but that did not happen.

And that was where he's in his room. He's in his bed. He's he's confined confined to his bed.

And they have John Wesley coming into his room and basically telling him, you know, you're being so self -centered in trying to save yourself.

Just look to Christ. Well, that just never happened.

That that that was I mean, no,

I mean, first of all, John Wesley never once communicated such words to George Whitfield at all.

Period. John Wesley was just as lost as George Whitfield at that time.

And he was trying to save himself by his own works, his own self -righteousness like Whitfield.

But but of course, Whitfield was out was outdoing everybody in trying to do that. Now, what

I wish they had done, I wish they had shown because this would have been historically accurate. It wasn't

John Wesley. It was John Wesley's brother, Charles. Who was very concerned with what he was seeing with his friend,

George Whitfield, and how it feels trying to save himself. And irony of irony.

Charles Wesley gives George Whitfield this little book by this

Scottish Puritan named Henry Schuylkill from the 17th century called The Life of God and the

Soul of Man. It is a wonderful gospel book all about the new birth.

But as I point out in my in my biography of Whitfield, Charles Wesley needed the book as badly as George Whitfield did.

You know, but in the providence of God, in the mercy of God's providence.

Charles Wesley hands that book to Whitfield and Whitfield for the first time in his life.

He hears of the new birth. Now. Did he immediately convert to Christ once he read the book?

No, he didn't. In fact. What he did in this, this, this would take him for the next six months after he read the book.

He was trying very hard for the next six months. And like I said, he almost killed himself trying to regenerate himself, trying to to be born again.

And, you know, but it wasn't until he was on that sick bed, had been there for six weeks, and finally, in the mercy and the grace of God.

Whitfield came to what we would say he came to the complete end of himself. And and he did.

He did then simply look to Christ in faith. And and the way that the way that Whitfield I've got my book here, the way that Whitfield.

Describes it, he says, this is this is from his journal.

He says, after having undergone innumerable buffeting of Satan and many months, inexpressible trials by night and day under the spirit of bondage.

God was pleased at length to remove the heavy load to enable me to lay hold on his dear son by a living faith and by giving me the spirit of adoption to seal me as I humbly hope even to the day of everlasting redemption.

But oh, with what joy, joy, unspeakable, even joy that was full of and big with glory was my soul filled when the weight of sin went off and an abiding sense of the pardoning love of God and a full assurance of faith broke in upon my disconsolate soul.

Surely it was the day of my espousals, a day to be had in everlasting remembrance.

At first, my joys were like a spring tide and as it were, overflowed the banks.

Go where I would. I could not avoid singing of psalms aloud. Afterwards, it became more settled and blessed be

God, saving a few casual intervals has abode and increased in my soul ever since.

Those are his words of his conversion. Well, we have to go to our first commercial break.

And if you'd like to join the conversation with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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If you just tuned us in, our guest today is George Whitfield biographer,

Kurt M. Smith, and we are providing a review of the recently released film,

A Great Awakening, which is the story of George Whitfield, the 18th century preacher, as told through the eyes of one of the founding fathers of America, Benjamin Franklin.

And both my guest, Kurt Smith, and myself loved this movie, and we were just sharing some criticisms of some inaccuracies that should not prevent people from seeing it, nonetheless.

But are you done with giving some critique, or do you have anything else to say in that end?

Well, one more thing to add, just adding another layer that I think will bring even a sharper clarity to what we're talking about regarding Whitfield.

Whitfield, as a Calvinist, preaching the gospel to sinners and this whole thing about, you know, what he has said to them, generally speaking,

God loves you all, and a letter like that. So, there's a chapter in my biography on Whitfield called

The Calvinistic Evangelist. And in that chapter, one of the things that I do is

I take the reader through one of Whitfield's most famous sermons, a sermon that he preached in 1741 called

The Method of Grace. And in the introduction to that sermon, a sermon that he based on Jeremiah 614, they've healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying,

Peace, peace, when there is no beast. Taking that text, Whitfield opened it up in this way. He said,

Our hearts are exceedingly deceitful and desperately wicked. None but the eternal

God knows how treacherous they are. How many of us cry, Peace, peace, to our souls when there is no peace?

How many are there who are now settled upon their leaves, that now think they are

Christians, that now flatter themselves that they have an interest in Jesus Christ, whereas if we come to examine their experiences, we shall find that their peace is but a peace of the devil's making.

It is not a peace of God's giving. It is not a peace that passeth human understanding.

And that's how Whitfield started that sermon. And what I simply say in response to that is, notice how the

Calvinistic evangelist begins his application to the hearers. He gives no warm, misty story to loosen the people up and relax them.

There is no assurance that God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. No, Whitfield speaks plainly and directly to a vastly churched people who've all been lulled into a confidence from birth that they're right with God by alarming them to the fact that their depraved hearts were deceiving them into an assurance that was not theirs to claim.

This is how the Calvinistic evangelist commences his work. It is a call for serious self -examination as to whether we have peace with God.

Amen. Well, I guess we should move on to what we loved about this movie.

One of the things that I could say right off the bat is that there is nothing cheesy about this movie, which, unfortunately, every single movie that I have ever seen that has been produced by Christians has been in some way cheesy.

I can't think of one that wasn't. The best movies I've ever seen on Christian themes were produced, unfortunately, by Hollywood, by unbelievers who somehow got things right.

What comes to mind, not that everything was accurate in that movie either, but Chariots of Fire, one of the greatest films of all time as far as I'm concerned.

But would you agree that that is one of the powerful aspects of this film is the quality of the filmmaking, the acting, and the script, even when they had to use artistic license, other than those things that we mentioned that were glaringly at odds with history.

It was just a well -done movie, wasn't it? I mean, the cast was superb, and Jonathan Blair, what a perfect choice for Whitfield in his ability to—the oration that he has the capability of providing for bellowing out the gospel in the way that he did.

And John Paul Sneed, the actor who played Benjamin Franklin, I couldn't think of a better person to play that role.

And as I said, it was a constant haunting reminder throughout the program that he looked exactly like a dear friend of mine who's in heaven now, who was the one that introduced me to George Whitfield.

But what do you have to say about this aspect of it? Well, first of all,

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I can echo with conviction everything you just said positively about the movie.

I was very much impressed with the production. I was very much impressed with the musical score.

Yes. I was very impressed with the acting, with the script.

I thought the script was very ingenious because it really was, in many ways,

Benjamin Franklin telling the story. And I thought that was ingenious with how it starts off in 1789, and you're wondering, you know, where's this going?

Because I'm thinking, well, Whitfield has been dead since 1770, and we're starting in 1789 in Philadelphia, so where's this going?

But it hooked me immediately, you know, because I just, I mean,

I was like, okay, so where are they about to go with this? And then, you know, and then you have the whole scene with Franklin with his grandson, and his grandson stumbles across these papers about this man, this

Reverend George Whitfield. And, you know, and just the way that Snead, the actor who played

Franklin, you know, the way that he put on this reminiscing of Whitfield, you know, it was just, it was a very convincing, warm reflection on a man that he did love.

And that's true. That's true to history. That's, I mean, that is factual.

George Whitfield and Benjamin Franklin had a 30 -year friendship, and it was a real friendship, even though Benjamin Franklin never did truly close with Christ.

He was never truly converted. You actually just answered the question of two of our listeners.

I don't know if you're familiar with my longtime friend Jerry Johnson, the documentarian, who was co -producer of Amazing Grace, the

History and Theology of Calvinism. Oh, yes, I'm very familiar, yes. He sent in a question that is identical from another listener,

Brian in Palm Bay, Florida. I do not believe that Benjamin Franklin ever made a profession for Christ, and I'm wondering if this is true.

And then Brian follows up with another question.

Can you tell me what you know about George Whitfield and his relationship with the Wesley brothers? Is there any written materials anywhere?

Well, going back to the Benjamin Franklin question,

I don't believe that the film gives you an idea that Franklin came to Christ.

I mean, it does demonstrate that he was moved to view

God by Whitfield, to view God in a non -deistic way, and to a degree.

To a degree. It was inconsistent with his deism. Yes. Yeah, that's true.

It was. Yes, the way the movie depicted the debating between Franklin and Whitfield over the truth of the gospel, the truth of Christianity, all of that is very accurate.

That really impressed me with the movie. Now, you know, there's that one scene of where it's in later years and Franklin and Whitfield, you know, they're trying to remember where exactly they are, the building they're in, but they're having a debate.

Now, that is not that debate. There's no record of that particular debate that they had, but the way, though, that they were communicating in regards to, you know, the gospel, to Christianity.

I mean, yes, all of that is true to history. For Benjamin Franklin, what impressed him so much about George Whitfield from the start?

I mean, he was already hearing these things about Whitfield before he first met him, but Franklin saw in Whitfield a man that was the genuine article.

He he he saw he saw that this young man is he's he's a man of integrity.

You know, he is he is sincere. He's not like he's not like the charlatan clergy that Franklin always had took great delight in criticizing.

He saw in George Whitfield a very genuine, sincere young man of integrity.

And even though he did not believe what Whitfield believed in regards to the

Christian faith, yet he was so attracted to Whitfield just because of his integrity and his sincerity that, you know, it it did start.

You know, a friendship, which. In Franklin's words, he called it a very civil friendship and they were always civil.

But, you know, but yes, I mean, Benjamin Franklin, he he never did truly come to faith in Jesus Christ.

I did appreciate the movie, you know, not not taking you there, not trying to convince you that he did.

You know, the movie did show in many ways the kind of man Franklin was. I mean, even his even his immorality, you know, the scene of him there in Paris, France and what and what that scene was suggesting, you know, about Franklin and his infidelity.

And so I was like, OK, this is good. I mean, this is good that they're they're painting their pain as much of a real picture as they can and what little time they have, you know, for this movie about the man

Franklin was. But yes. You know, what happened in 1789 and how and how the movie ends there,

I mean, obviously, that's all true to fact as well. But. That did not mean that Benjamin Franklin came to a place of where he was a true believer in Jesus Christ, because he never was.

He he denied the divinity of Christ all his life and and did not did not believe that, you know, one is truly justified.

You know, even though he was raised, even though he was raised by Puritans, his parents. Yeah, that's right.

Even though he was raised by Puritans. Oh, yeah. Yes. And and as far as him.

Being a key catalyst. Because of,

I think, at least the way the movie portrays, because of Whitfield's influence upon Benjamin Franklin, that he.

Emphasized Ben Franklin emphasized the need for divine guidance and the deliberations of Congress and that they.

The practice of prayer before sessions eventually became common in Congress because because of Franklin's insistence upon it.

Even though it was initially met with disproval and opposition.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And as we know, I mean, all of that is true.

That really happened. Franklin really he really did. Address, you know, the

Continental Congress with those words and but but yet, you know, you know, even at that.

He he clearly was a believer in God. He believed in that religion was very good for a society, for a civil society.

But, you know, but still. He he was never born again.

There is no evidence at all in anything about his life, in anything about what he wrote.

But I think something else that we have to remember. Is that. Colonial America in the 18th century.

Was very, very different than America that we that we know of today in the 21st century.

You know. Christianity, the Christian faith, the gospel had a far greater influence on 18th century

America. You know, then, you know, then what it does in 21st century

America. And so, you know, to to refer to the providence of God.

To talk about the need for prayer. There. Yes, I mean.

That that was that was a part of the American culture in the 18th century.

Which, incidentally, and I'm just using this as a footnote. That even when

Thomas Jefferson. First wrote his so -called

Jefferson Bible. He is his good, good longtime friend,

John Adams, told him. If you print that it will be political suicide.

Wow, because this nation, this nation will not stand for that.

And so Jefferson did not print it. Wow. He did not print it, so that's clear.

And that was that was in the early years. That was in just in the very early years of the 19th century.

When John Adams communicated that to Thomas Jefferson, so. So, yeah.

Yeah. It just the cult, the American culture was was very

Christianized. In the 18th century, then then what we see today, which, of course, is more paganized.

You know, just two very different cultures. So so, yeah. So for Franklin to call the

Congress to do what they did. You could say, well, he was being a very cult, a cultural

Christian. But that doesn't mean that he was a true Christian.

Excellent. And before we go to the break, as far as Brian's second question.

Can you tell me what you know about George Whitefield and his relationship with the Wesley brothers?

Well, you've already gone into that. And you could add anything you'd like. But he also says, well, is there is there any written materials anywhere?

And let me just quickly plug again. George Whitefield's letter to John Wesley on election, which you could get at Chapel Library dot org.

Chapel Library dot org. And if you type in George Whitefield in the search engine and keep in mind,

Whitefield is spelled like it's pronounced Whitefield. Whitefield, W -H -I -T -E -F -I -E -L -D.

In fact, in the beginning of the movie, somebody mispronounces it and is corrected. If you remember when they hear about George Whitefield, he is told no

Whitfield. But that will come up,

Brian. But but what else would you like to say about that? Well, yes,

Whitfield had a long life. Well, really, a lifetime of friendship with John and Charles Wesley.

John Wesley, of course, was Whitfield's senior in age, whereas Charles and George were much more closer in age.

But. They. They had a they had a lifelong friendship that started, you know, it started with the

Holy Club there in Oxford. Now, it did run into a great trial in 1739, 1740, 41, when

John Wesley preached and printed his his his sermon against predestination, which is what prompted

George Whitefield to write his open letter in response, direct response to that sermon.

And that was a great trial. In their friendship, both with he and with John Charles and Whitfield, Charles Wesley would not speak to Whitfield for seven years.

Following that, he he and Whitfield and John Wesley, they they actually reconciled a lot sooner than Charles and George Whitfield did.

But they got through it. And to me, and this this just kind of says it all.

And I write about this in in my biography because I the longest chapter of my biography is on the the controversy is called

When Doctrine Divides Catholicity, Controversy and Calvinism. And in.

In this chapter. I. I bring out the fact that.

And this is this is really amazing that I talk about the mending of the fences between Whitfield and Wesley.

That is John Wesley in particular. And I say that the fellowship was being renewed between Whitfield and John Wesley.

Says, but it was Whitfield who sought to repair the breach. And while he had never seen his friendship fully mended with Wesley, it had been renewed enough where in 1769, as he departed from England for the last time, he insisted to Robert King that he wanted

John Wesley to preach his funeral sermon. Thus, on Whitfield's part, was only a further effort toward stabilizing the reconciliation that had been shown some 27 years prior.

And how significant it was when the time came that John Wesley did indeed preach Whitfield's funeral sermon at a memorial service held on Sunday, November the 18th, 1770 at Tottenham Court Road Chapel.

And and, of course, we have that sermon in print that Wesley preached eulogizing

Whitfield, and it is a beautiful, beautiful eulogy. And so, yes, we have plenty of primary source material of the friendships between those three men.

And and like I said, even though their friendship was greatly tried and it was almost completely obliterated.

And this all went back to the whole controversy over Calvinism. But eventually, by God's grace, and it was it was primarily the efforts of George Whitfield, reconciliation did take place.

Now, can you verify whether this famous anecdote actually happened where this is something

I've heard for years, where an anti -Wesleyan, a very staunch

Calvinist said to George Whitfield, we won't see John Wesley in heaven, will we?

And Whitfield humbly replied, yes, you're right. We won't see him in heaven. He'll be so close to the throne of God and we will be so far away that we won't be able to see him.

Is that real? Did that really occur? Yes. Yeah, that is that that really and actually occurred.

Whitfield did say that, in fact. Whitfield.

Going back to that chapter that I just that I was just reading from on the controversy with Calvinism between the

Wesleys and Whitfield, Whitfield, he.

He did. He did express that and and he even had he even had expressed.

Even had expressed much more. In regards to. That kind of that kind of incredible love, brotherly love.

That he demonstrated to John Wesley, even though, as I point out in this chapter in the beginning.

John and Charles Wesley, they greatly sinned against Whitfield. When Whitfield came back to England in 17, early 1741, after having been in America during the beginning of the

Great Awakening, when he came back to England, he faced the greatest trial of his entire life.

Because the Wesley brothers had turned nearly everybody in the revival movement in England against Whitfield.

And that was through vicious slander. It is amazing.

And you can only credit this to God and his mercy and grace that Whitfield's ministry in England even recovered.

Because of what Wesley brothers did. Wow. I mean, it just it is. It's just it's startling.

But as I say in the end of the chapter on this whole episode, is that George Whitfield.

He is a worthy model to follow for all of us in this kind of controversy, because he never stopped showing true, genuine

Christlike love to those two men as hateful and mean spirited as they were.

They really were in the beginning. Well, we have to go to our midway break right now.

And if anybody else would like to join us with a question of your own for Kirk Smith, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com.

Give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back.

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The email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com and give us your first name, at least your city and state and country of residence.

And we have Doyle in Hueytown, Alabama, who says, is the story depicted in the film accurate that Whitefield began as an orator when he was a young man studying acting?

Well, Whitefield was drawn to the stage at a very, very young age.

There is some there is some artistic license in that part of the movie as far as, you know, him being somehow trained by this this this actor, this theater actor.

In regards, though, to his his giftedness as an actor,

I'll just I do address that in my in my biography and but I address it through the words of none other than J .I.

Packer. Dr. Packer. He wrote. In regards to Whitefield.

In regards to to to Whitefield and is his very obvious gift for the stage.

This is what this is what J .I. Packer wrote in regards to that. He said Whitefield was a very gifted man.

To his natural, energetic alertness and charm or added in sanctified mode, all the powers that mark great actors.

What were they? First, the power to command and hold attention. Movement or action, as the classical theorists of rhetoric called it, is central here and Whitfield was never still in the pulpit.

Second, a big in Whitfield's case, a huge voice capable of expressing the whole range of human emotions and attitudes.

Whitfield could thunder, lament, caress and encourage with overwhelming, heart searching, heart breaking power.

Third, total identification with what he was projecting, not in Whitfield's case, a character stage, but the holiness and mercy of God and the transformation of life that Christ brings when through faith and repentance, we learn to live in, through, to and for him.

Fourth, the ability to make every utterance an easy flow of vivid and arresting speech.

All great actors and all great preachers can do this. Fifth, power so to impact each individual in the crowd that he or she feels personally addressed, arrested and drawn into what is going on.

In Whitfield's case, persuasion from God through his messenger, thus gifted as a dramatic communicator,

Whitfield had an evangelistic and nurturing ministry in the pulpit of unprecedented power and fruitfulness.

So God used those natural gifts that Whitfield was just born with to be a great stage actor.

And when the Lord saved Whitfield, well, those gifts didn't go away.

They were sanctified by the Spirit and they were used in the power of the Spirit. Praise God.

We have May in Del Rio, Texas, who says,

I've heard a number of highly esteemed Christians enthusiastically promote

A Great Awakening by actually saying it is the best movie that they ever saw. Would you agree with them?

I think it is the best movie that.

I have ever seen in in in the Christian in the

Christian context, in depicting an aspect of church history and certainly and certainly the most well -known aspect of American church history.

And also it is I would say that it is it's the greatest movie

I've seen, most definitely from the standpoint of how clear and full and uncompromising the gospel of Jesus Christ is definitely proclaimed in that movie.

Praise God. Well, bring up some reasons why, some more reasons,

I should say, why you believe that the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners should definitely make it a point to see the movie, to bring others with them, lost and saved alike.

Why congregations should encourage people to see it. Well, first and foremost,

I would strongly encourage fellow Christians to if if there's any way that they can that they can actually see the movie in the theaters, if they have family members, if they have friends or coworkers that they know are not born again.

They should definitely take them to see that movie because they would they would see the gospel very vividly shown in how it took this one life.

God transformed that life, brings that life into the world to proclaim

Christ and him crucified, and then even seeing the way in which Whitefield defended the gospel with a skeptic like Benjamin Franklin.

And, you know, so so there there is also a

Christian apologetic dynamic that they beautifully wrote into the script of the movie defending the the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And so so from that standpoint, yes, I mean, this is something

I was saying, one of my first impressions of the movie after we after my family saw it, we laughed. I said, that's a movie you should take your unbelieving friends to go see.

And the other is, of course, and just from the standpoint as as a Christian, you know, as I said a moment ago, the greatest the greatest moment in American church history was was 1740 to 1742, which we know is the

Great Awakening. Over 50 ,000 people came to faith in Christ during that period.

And this this movie will give you some kind of a taste of what that must have been like for Americans at that moment in time, especially the whole scene of Whitefield there in Philadelphia on the court steps and preaching

Christ to those vast crowds. And, of course, you know, when when Benjamin Franklin did his, you know, his measuring of how far back how many people could

Whitfield here, Franklin said at that moment, he said you could hear him clearly with 30 ,000 people.

And that, of course, was, as we know, without any amplification whatsoever. So it gives you this sense of, wow, you know, the power of the spirit being poured out upon this young 20 something who is proclaiming

Christ with such just beautiful clarity, calling centers to faith in Christ.

And, you know, for me, I'm just I'm hoping that the movie for Christians who are not familiar with the

Great Awakening, also who are not as familiar with George Whitfield, I mean, even Jonathan Blair, who played

Whitfield, said he didn't even know who Whitfield was, never even heard of George Whitfield until he was offered the part of the movie.

Wow. You know, and so I mean, to me, that's just that's sad. And so.

Because George Whitfield in his day and time. He was the most well -known person in all 13

British American colonies. I mean, no one knew someone better than they knew

George Whitfield. Whitfield was a household name, as it were. And so. You know, my my hope would be that as Christians see it, that it would whet their appetite to say, you know what?

I'd like to learn more about George Whitfield. I'd like to, you know, you know what? What good books can

I read? Well, Thundering the Word, you know, shameless promotion.

But also, too, I would recommend, I mean, if you want to take even a deeper dive than my book, go to Arnold Dallymore and get his beautiful 1600 page two volume biography on Whitfield that is published by Banner of Truth.

You know, but. That's, you know, to me, that's that's the exciting thing about Christians seeing this movie, because it will it will just open their eyes to this one man of God and how

God used him, but also seeing. This this is what happens when

God chooses and it pleases him to choose to pour out his spirit in real reviving power, you know, and and like I said,

I mean, the Great Awakening being Whitfield was at the beginning of it. But even after he left to go back to England in January 1741, the

Great Awakening was just really starting to gain greater traction. And of course, that's where men like Jonathan Edwards would would take the take the the the center stage with it.

And but, yeah, I just, you know, like a very, very good friend of mine said to me when he saw it.

He said. I you know, he said it moved me to pray,

Lord. What would you do again in our day? What it pleased you to do in 1740 to 42 in this country?

By the way, folks, before I forget to do it later, I do want to plug Solid Ground Christian Books, the publisher of Thundering the

Word. The Awakening Ministry of George Whitfield by my guest,

Kurt M. Smith. Wonderful book forward written by my other friend,

Dr. Tom Nettles, who's been on this broadcast. This is the kind of book that is a wonderful way to introduce people to the life and ministry of George Whitfield in an affordable way.

You I strongly urge you to buy multiple copies of this book to give to family, friends and loved ones who you invite to see

A Great Awakening at the movie theater and then hand them that book. And hopefully they'll read more about this great man of God, George Whitfield.

You go to Solid -Ground -Books .com, Solid -Ground -Books .com.

And also, if you have the money for the much larger volumes that Kurt mentioned just moments ago, the two volume set by Arnold Dalimore on George Whitfield, which is currently going for sixty four dollars and sixty cents for the two volume set.

Go to BannerOfTruth .org, BannerOfTruth .org.

And if I could just make one correction, I'm sorry. So my book is actually published by Free Grace Press.

Oh, OK. They're the publisher. But but my dear friend,

Mike Gaydosh at Solid -Ground, he does carry the book, though. OK, sorry about that. That's OK.

And before we go to the. Well, actually, let me go to the final break now and then we will take a listener question in New Hampshire when we come back.

And don't go away, folks. We're going to be right back right after these messages from our sponsors.

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We hope to see you Thursday, October 1, in Loisville, Pennsylvania, at the next free biannual

Iron Trip Insignia Radio Pastors Luncheon. We have George in Pittsfield, New Hampshire, and George wants to know, are you aware if any of the actors in this film are

Christians, or if any of them have become Christians through their hearing the gospel over and over again while performing in it?

I only know that Jonathan Blair, who portrays

Whitefield, I saw an interview with him, and he does profess to be a

Christian. I know that he said that doing the film gave him a lot to think about.

I know that he did say that. Yeah, yeah. Now, there is a pastor friend of mine in South Georgia, a member of his church who now lives in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

Really? He actually worked on the set for this movie, and so I know through the testimony of this fellow pastor that that man is a

Christian. But as far as the actual actors and others that played in the movie,

I don't know personally. I can't say. Well, it's something we should all pray about, that they all do come to Christ.

I'm sure they're going to probably watch this movie, even though they've already acted in it. They'll probably watch it multiple times, and who knows what the

Lord will do with this film to break through their hearts of stone and give them new hearts of flesh.

Amen. Now, I would like you, before we run out of time and go off the air, to please summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners about not only this film, but about George Whitefield, the man, and especially his gospel.

Well, the biggest takeaway that a

Christian should have about George Whitefield is that in church history, and I'm not the only one who has said what

I'm about to say. Many, many other church historians in the past have said this, but next to the

Apostle Paul, there has never been a greater evangelist than Whitefield. When you look at what he did and what he accomplished by the grace of God at a time and period when it was just frankly unheard of that this one man would reach as many people as he did for Christ, and that really was his singular driving ambition.

Whitefield, as I've stated in my book, he was the truest picture of a gospel evangelist par excellence, hands down.

And so what we see in him for pastors today, they should be greatly convicted by Whitefield's ambition and his holy zeal to reach others for Christ and to want to preach with such a holy passion and with such a dependence on the

Holy Spirit. To empower that preaching of the gospel to greatly, effectually reach centers for Christ.

And just to every Christian, we should all be convicted just as Christians to see that George Whitefield, much like John the

Baptist. And this is actually how I introduced my biography on Whitefield is with John the

Baptist that, you know, the last recorded public words of John the Baptist in Scripture in John chapter three are those words that we know so well where John the

Baptist says that Jesus must increase and he, John the Baptist, must decrease.

And that really summarizes the life and ministry of George Whitefield. I mean,

Whitefield lived that out. That Christ must always increase in his life and he,

George Whitefield, must decrease. In fact, in the first chapter of my book on Whitefield, I tell this story of where Whitefield began saying, and this was 12 years into his ministry, but he would write, nevermind me, let my name die everywhere, let even my friends forget me, if by that means the cause of the blessed

Jesus be promoted. He said to another friend, you judge right when you say it is your opinion that I do not want to make a sect or set myself at the head of a party.

No, let the name of Whitefield die so that the cause of Jesus Christ may live. And then, of course,

Whitefield said, let my name be forgotten. Let me be trodden under the feet of all men.

If Jesus may thereby be glorified and his most and of course, you know, his his most famous declaration along these lines in the same spirit was, you know, let the name of Whitefield perish in the name of Christ be glorified.

I mean, that it's like if you really want to understand George Whitefield, well, there it is in summary. And there was a there was a paraphrase of that when he ascended into the pulpit up the steps in Philadelphia.

Correct. In the movie, he said something very correct. Yes, yes. And I was thrilled.

I was thrilled to see that and hear that in the movie, you know, because that that really does summarize the 34 years that he endeavored to bring the gospel to his generation in both

England and America. By the way, James in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, said we saw the movie over the weekend and your program is going to be a part of our homeschool day tomorrow.

Oh, I guess he means that he's going to listen to my show from an archive in the homeschool.

Well, thank you very much, James. I would love to hear how that turns out. Well, it's been a blast.

It's been a joy to have you back on the program. And once again, for our listeners who live in the

Rimlap, Alabama area, if you would like to visit

Providence Reformed Baptist Church of Rimlap, go to prbc1689 .org,

prbc1689 .org. And I want to thank you so much for being a guest.

And I look forward to your return many times. Well, thank you. It was a joy to be back with you, brother.

And I've always enjoyed our times together. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater