December 4, 2025 Show with Andrew Horvath on “UFO/UAP Occultism: The Quest for Secret Knowledge & Saviors From the Stars”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.

It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Harnson.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Harnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this fourth day of December 2025.

The Rise of UFOs and UAPs in Modern Culture

The whole subject of UFOs, now given a new nickname, UAPs, Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon, has captivated the attention and imagination of people globally, probably having a greater percentage of humanity believing that there could be life on other planets than ever before.

There are far less skeptics, it seems to be the case anyway, and even people with wonderful and highly regarded reputations for integrity putting their own two cents into the conversation, claiming to believe that something exists in the realm of intelligent life outside the planet earth.

And today, we are going to have a guest on to try to seek for a biblical Christian answer to this. I was blown away, actually, by the wonderful job that my guest did at a recent Future of Christendom conference on the theme that he is addressing today.

His name is Andrew Horvath. He is music director at St. John's Reformed Church of Freidensburg, Pennsylvania, actively involved in men's discipleship and abortion abolition ministries, and was recently, as I said, on the speaking roster at the Future of Christendom conference in Ephrata, Pennsylvania.

And he's going to be addressing UFO, UAP occultism, the quest for secret knowledge and saviors from the stars. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Trump and Zion.

Radio, Andrew Horvath. Thanks very much, Chris. Good to be here. I've enjoyed hearing some.

Of my friends from Future of Christendom on very recently. Yes, and please tell us about St. John's Reformed Church in Freidensburg, Pennsylvania. Yeah, we're a small church,.

A Reformed Baptist congregation. We found that church after a long—it seemed like a long time of kind of searching around. In 2022, my family started attending, and that was after the debacle of 2020 and the great revealing of hearts.

And so anyway, we've been there and started leading music later on in that year. We have a biblical institute that meets Sunday afternoons at four o 'clock. It runs nine months out of the year, and we just went on break.

We cover all kinds of different topics there for the edification and education of the congregation and greater community. And I've taught apologetics four weeks this past year for that. But we have a service, our worship service is at nine o 'clock in the morning on Sundays.

And I understand it's a.

Reformed Baptist church? That's correct. And I believe, if I'm not mistaken, the church by the sovereign grace of God was rescued out of the apostate denomination known as the United Church.

Of Christ. That's my understanding. Yeah, that was before we were there. But yes, there's been a reformation within that church due to the influence of Pastor Matt Kanitzer,.

Who has also been a guest on your program. Yes. And I thoroughly have enjoyed my visits to St. John's Reformed Church of Freidensburg, Pennsylvania, and fondly remember, perhaps especially, when my dear friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

Was a featured speaker there. Yeah, I had attended that event also. I can meet him.

And if anybody wants to know more about St. John's Reformed Church in Freidensburg, Pennsylvania, the website is sjrcpa .org. That's S-J-R for St. John's Reformed, C-P-A for church.

In Pennsylvania, dot org, S-J-R-C-P-A. We actually have an updated URL for that. It's easier to remember. It's allofchrist .org. Oh, great. I think that old URL probably still goes there, but allofchrist .org will take you straight to our church, and that's easier to remember.

Yeah. In fact, it says for our new website, click here, and I just went to allofchrist .org. That is easier to remember. Well, before we get into this fascinating topic, I want you to do something that we always have first-time guests do on this program.

It's a tradition on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. Whenever we have a first-time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include the religious atmosphere in which they were raised, if any, and the providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to Himself and saved them.

And we would.

Love to hear a summary of your story. Okay. Thanks, Chris. Yeah, I grew up in a Christian home, nominally so, in Danville, Pennsylvania, where I live now, although I did move away for a number of years and came back.

And we are actually a good almost an hour from the church that our member's at and I serve, but it's hard to find a good one, so we travel the distance. I was raised going to a United Methodist church.

It was not one of these extremely liberal churches, at least at the time that I was there, that you might find at the UMC. However, it did not really—I would not call it a church at the time that really taught the Bible or preached the gospel.

And so I grew up going to church, going to Sunday school, learning some stories and things like this, but I did not really understand how to read the Bible. I did not understand the need for salvation or exactly what that even meant.

It was just something you were born into. And so, effectively, I would call myself a moralistic, therapeutic deist at the time. So I had a sense of right and wrong. I had a sense of towing the line, doing the right thing, being thought of as a good person.

It made me feel good. I believed in God generally, but I did not really know Christ in a saving way. I did not believe. And when I went off to college, my mother—right before I went to my freshman year, my mother had received a diagnosis of cancer, and it was very fast-moving.

She wanted me to not delay, because this was the whole hope of my family, was to send me off to college. So I went off to Virginia Tech, but she had succumbed to the cancer within a few months and had died before Christmas of 2001, that same year.

And so, all of a sudden, my legs were kicked out from under me. Spiritually, I was kind of just adrift, and I realized that I had this newfound independence at college, and I did not really have anyone, especially my mom, to continue to live.

So somebody would think well of me, so I kind of just got away with whatever I could get away with. I was not like a crazy, just off-the-rails kind of person, but I had plenty of sin, and a very proud individual, too, and very prideful of who I was and what I had accomplished and what I assumed that I would become in college and beyond.

But God brought me up short in that process. My mother's death, as well as some other circumstances, had kind of woken me up. And it was the second year of college, there were several people who I had made friends with who were Christians and real ones, who Jesus was a real factor in their life.

They knew him, they knew the gospel, they could read the Bible. They went to a campus ministry called Campus Crusade—we call it CRU, I guess they still call it that. It was pretty big on campus at the time.

And through that, I finally heard the gospel and met a whole bunch of people who, like I said, for whom Jesus was a real factor and shaped their life. And I wanted that because I didn't have that and so through various circumstances of relationships and things, God brought me to himself through the influence of Christian peers.

I'm so grateful for that. I had other experiences in college that kind of got me out of my comfort zone. I had gone to Guatemala for a summer with an Engineering Industries International as an architectural intern, and that just was a different experience.

I really had to rely on the Lord, but I was surrounded by other great brothers and sisters in Christ that were very influential to me. So those kind of circumstances were how God got a hold of me and set me on my feet and started walking in his way.

And so now today, I've been married for, I believe, 18 years to a wonderful wife who's my best friend, and we have three children together—two boys and a girl. We just turned one year old, so we have the older boys, and then all of a sudden, we're kind of starting over again.

But it's a joy to have this family and be sanctified by their influence all the way.

Amen. How did you discover the Reformed faith?

That's a good question, because at first, I was very resistant to it. I wasn't really aware of it. But what I did was, starting in college and then into my first employment after school, I was very much interested in listening to the various radio shows and podcasts of all kinds of different—I was just thirsty for knowledge, and so I was just drinking up all kinds of things, especially, like, antigraphs, Bible Answer Man.

I did encounter R .C. Sproul and others, and at first, the Reformed stuff turned me off, the Calvinism, because it was very different from.

The kind of gospel message I heard in college. Turned off antigraph, too. I said it turned off antigraph, too.

He was very influential in my life, yeah, for a while there, and I know that he's gone on to Eastern Orthodoxy, which is very disappointing. But R .C. Sproul remains one of my favorite guys to listen to, just a really respected man.

But the one individual who really kind of just made the Reformed doctrine click for me, one way or the other, for good or for bad, was Mark Driscoll. He's still around, and I'm not really sure what he's up to these days.

Sometimes I hear some good things, and sometimes I hear some kind of wacky things. But I think that I would say that God can use a broken vessel, just like any of us, to deliver very clear, clean water at the time that you need it.

So that would be kind of my entry into that world. For a while there, the gospel coalition was very encouraging until it became pretty ridiculous. So those were influences, people affiliated with that kind of stuff.

Well, when we come back from our first commercial break, we're going to dive right into the topic at hand, which I'm sure many of you are on the edge of your seats waiting to hear about UFO, UAP, occultism, the quest for secret knowledge, and saviors from the stars.

If you have a question for Andrew Horvath about this, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Always give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

I can understand that there's some of you who may want to remain anonymous because perhaps you've seen a UFO and you don't want to identify yourself because you're embarrassed to admit that publicly or something.

Whatever the case is, if you're really compelled to remain anonymous, we will grant you that request. But if you're just asking a general question, please give us your first name, at least, city and state, and country of residence.

Don't go away. We're going to be right back right after these messages.

I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession, we embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our triune God.

We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of scripture, loving, encouraging, and serving each other as the body of Christ. In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every Sunday.

We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at trbccarlisle .org. That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon.

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That's royaldiadem .com and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And we are now back with my guest today, Andrew Horvath, and he has in store for us what I believe is going to be an utterly fascinating conversation.

And by the way, let me repeat our email address if anybody would like to join us with a question of their own, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, country of residence, only remain anonymous if your question is personal and private in the area of UFOs.

I know that you must have put a lot of research into this because this is not your background, you're not an aeronautical engineer or somebody, or you're not an astronomer, and yet you really did one of the finest presentations at the Future of Christendom conference that I've ever seen on UFOs.

And first of all, obviously UFO means Unidentified Flying Object, UAT is Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon. It would be wrong to say, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it'd be wrong to say, as many people do, I do not believe in UFOs because it just means Unidentified Flying Object and there are Unidentified Flying Objects.

What I was saying is it's wrong for people to say, I don't believe in UFOs because there are Unidentified Flying Objects. By saying, some people, what they mean by that is they don't believe in intelligent life outside the planet Earth, other than the spirit realm and heaven and so on.

But obviously there are UFOs, and if you want to pick it up from there.

Sure, yeah, so obviously UFO is a very generic term. It just could be anything you see that you believe is in the sky that you can't tell what it is. The sister term, which is more modernized, and I think it's actually an improvement on it, used a lot.

I mean, when you're dealing with government things, they love their acronyms. And so UAP is, as you said, Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon. And if you want an example, a perfect example, if you just remember exactly about one year ago, last December, we had on the East Coast, especially drone fever, and lots of people seeing all kinds of lights, looking up maybe for the first time in a long time, and kind of some of those reports were identifiable aircraft that people were not familiar with just looking up and seeing blinking lights and this, but then there were a lot of very strange things that people didn't really know.

And I'm not really sure of a whole lot of people who maybe suspected that these were piloted by what we might call alien life or extraterrestrial life or something like that, but they were unidentified and they disturbed people a lot.

America, the American audience or American culture has a very strong, powerful interest in UFO phenomena and aliens, if you will. And so I think it's something worth talking about, because I think that I propose in my talk there, and thank you for the compliments, that this really is something that the church and Christians need to be conversant in, at least to some degree.

It might not be something that really interests you, but I think your neighbors are interested in it. And I think that what the possibility is, is that it makes all kinds of claims that are counter to the gospel of Christ, that are not rooted seeking answers from the Bible.

And I think that even to the point that we may see, and are seeing, alternative spiritualities or false alternative gospels from interest in this. So that's why I think that I believe that the church needs to be willing to address any and every topic, because God is the creator of all.

And if we are his ambassadors, we ought to be willing to talk about whatever the things are that concern our neighbors for the sake of helping them understand truth.

Why a Biblical Worldview Rejects Intelligent Life on Other Planets

Tom, before we go into some of the specifics about UFOs and UAPs, why do you believe as a Christian, a Bible-believing Christian, that to believe that God created intelligent life on other planets would be incompatible with a biblical worldview?

That's a good question. We would really be speaking, looking to the text, we don't have any kind of information that there was any other propagated planet. However, we do know that there are other intelligences that God has created.

God created an unseen realm inhabited by, well, we can say angels and demons, and that may be a little bit simplistic if you really want to dive into that realm. But I think that there are other—and this is actually where one of these acronyms comes in very useful, perhaps, and that is that even secular people will refer to NHIs, which is non-human intelligences or non-human entities.

And that kind of gets into the realm of where it touches on the Christian worldview. I believe that God created this earth as a very unique, utterly unique place for humans to live. So in that sense, I think it's completely, perfectly designed for human life and flourishing and for dominion here.

And I'm not sure that it is our role or job to be going out and assuming that we are going to do this on some other planet when God created this planet as the place for his image bearers and.

As the descendants of Adam and Eve. Now, I have heard some Christians respond to that question by saying, it's impossible for there to be intelligent life on other planets because that would require God sending a Savior to die for those inhabitants of other planets, to die for their sins, just as he sent us Christ.

And that would mean he had more than one Savior, which is unbiblical. Now, one of the reasons I don't accept that as a valid answer by a Christian, which I think, I don't know if you've heard that, I've heard it many times, actually, over my 40 plus years as being an evangelical Christian, because I'm Reformed and I believe in limited atonement, otherwise known as definite atonement, and particular redemption.

And if I don't believe Jesus died for the sins of everyone on this planet, why would it require that he needed to send a Savior to other planets to die for extraterrestrial sins, if you know what I'm saying?

So, I don't buy that as a valid response. In other words, there are living, intelligent beings that we know about right now on this planet.

For whom Christ did not die. Right. Yeah, that's a good response. I hadn't really thought about.

That, but that's a fair response. But it would be such a vital topic if there were these beings that were intelligent creatures on other planets. It would be remarkable to me that God would not have mentioned them in the Word.

That's my main reason for rejecting the idea.

Right. And I think that what you're finding in current, you can use the term ufology, that's a term in this realm, whether from the Christian analysis or not, there's a lot of talk that kind of just rejects the idea of literal extraterrestrials that we may see depicted in Hollywood movies as residents from another star system or something like that, just because the physical distance is so great, and the technology required, and there's the travel at the speed of light, and all kinds of factors that come into this.

I think that that hypothesis is losing popularity in all realms of ufology. And instead, looking to explanations, and people have been talking about this, I think, since the 70s, about what they call beings from another plane of existence, another dimension, an extradimensional kind of interdimensional hypothesis, not an extraterrestrial hypothesis.

And again, I'm not a astronomer, as you said, or anything like that, but that does make sense. And I think from a biblical worldview, again, if we understand that there are beings, created beings, and every being besides God must be created, then these have intelligence and some agency, and all under the sovereign purview of a holy God, for whatever his purposes are.

But we have an understanding from our Bible that there are entities in the angelic plane or angelic realm that we can't see into and don't understand, but have a different purpose and different abilities than we do as.

Common Naturalistic, Psychological, and Demonic Explanations for UFO Phenomena

Now, you gave an excellent breakdown during this lecture on the different responses and options that if people were going to be studying and responding to this issue logically, you gave different responses that people may have to this phenomenon, and why you would rule those responses out as not being in harmony with the biblical worldview.

Why don't you go with some of those common responses in major categories of viewpoints within this whole realm?

Thanks a lot. Yeah. So the first one would just be the dismissal out of hand as a total hoax, that people who claim to have encounters or sightings with UAPs or the aliens are not real. They're just merely fiction, and so they're just people's imagination run amok, and so the people are knowingly lying to you.

But there are so many stories, and told in such a way that I don't think there's this grand conspiracy among all these different people. I think that they really believe to report what they've seen, and from otherwise credible people.

So I don't think that this is merely just a total hoax. Another option would be just that people are personally deluded, they're imagining these things, and they truly believe what they're seeing. So the first category would be people are lying to you.

The second category would be these people really believe it. Their false perception limited to the mind, and maybe they're hallucinations from drugs or the result of a mental disorder. But there are sometimes physical data, there are sometimes group sightings, and not everyone who has reported seeing these things has been on drugs or out of their mind.

Now I would say that on the drug use thing, that that is something that does open people up to all kinds of spiritual influence. So I think that could be a factor sometimes, but that's not the whole of it.

Another category of explanation might be just that these are natural phenomena, but they're misinterpreted. So people are seeing stars or planets that they don't know, or a meteor, that old swamp gas explanation, or man-made objects like satellites that they're seeing, or drones, as we had mentioned last year.

But there are many bizarre ones or frightening ones that have other factors going on that kind of defy that just as a simple dismissal.

An option, I suppose, is—go ahead. I was just going to say, those who have witnessed UFOs are not only guys named Bubba in a rowboat in Arkansas. No offense to my listeners in Arkansas, and especially if their name is Bubba, no offense.

But that's the idea that a lot of critics have. And there are very impressive people that claim to have witnessed these things. Some of them are pilots and astronauts and people in law enforcement. So people who are not the initial candidates that we would have very little reason to view them as having credibility and integrity.

I mean, these are people who are upright people many times and highly respected.

In their fields and in their communities. Right. So I believe that—obviously, I'm sure that there are some people who just want to become famous, but there's such widespread and varied reports from different kinds of people that, like I said, I think that we have to be open to the idea that people are really seeing something, that they're not just—I'm just not lying to you.

There is actual phenomena happening. And so the whole question is, then, what is it? And so, as Christians, we can't be scared of the truth. And we know that God makes sense of it all, although we are not privy to all kinds of information.

I mean, the other options that you have, Chris, for these explanations would be kind of like—it's like the movies, the thing that I talked about, that these are actual ETs from another planet, another star system, and they have traveled across the void of space to be here.

That seems to be physically impossible by many people smarter than me who would say that that's not going to be the case. So then one explanation is that these are human craft, that these are from secret, unacknowledged government programs that the government has been contracting with or creating in their black budgets, all kinds of different piloted craft.

But it's really just humans up there. There's no alien involvement whatsoever. But then my question to that is, then, how has this massive leap in technology been able to be a secret, and why keep it secret for so long?

Obviously, there's concerns about weaponization, and we know that the government has a lot of.

Secrets that they haven't disclosed. Yeah, we still don't know the whole truth about the JFK assassination. So, I mean, who knows? Yeah. So then the next explanation that.

Holds a lot of purchase with Christians is what I call the Just Demons, Bro explanation. And so by that, I mean that these are real spiritual entities. They are demons, but they're non-physical. So they can be seen and experienced by groups, and they can harm people somehow.

But it's unclear how non-physical but spiritual entities can do real physical harm. So there's questions that I would say, as soon as we get to something that can be seen or heard, light and sound are by definition physical.

So we have to understand, I mean, we don't really understand, but we have to think about the fact that if we just say, well, this is merely a spiritual entity, yes, but it's interacting in our physical world that we can perceive and record and hear.

And the Bible talks about spiritual beings, like angels being able to eat and drink and talk to and touch people when they open doors. And then there's a question, it's kind of a can of worms there, but I think that the Bible teaches that, I think in Genesis 6, that certain angelic entities left their place and they simply reproduced with human women.

The whole discussion of the Nephilim, that's a whole other topic. But I wanted to say that there is some physicality interacting from the spiritual realm, from the demonic or unclean spiritual realm, when it comes to oppressing human beings.

So that's a big topic, and that gets into the depths of demonology, angelology, but I think it's something that Christians can approach with caution.

Yeah, and there is debate about these issues, even amongst theologically like-minded people. Like, for instance, the whole Nephilim issue, there are even theologically Reformed people that disagree with each other on the nature of what that was.

And just out of curiosity, before we move on from that, we have to go to a commercial break in several minutes, but one of my guests in this program a number of times is Dr. Jason Lyle, one of the most brilliant individuals alive today.

And he is a Christian astrophysicist, and he is a Young Earth Creationist. And he really writes off this whole controversy as being phenomena that can be explained. And he does not believe it could be demonic activity because of it being photographed and filmed.

And in Jason's understanding, you cannot photograph something from the spirit realm or film it. I mean, far be it from me to quickly disagree with such a brilliant person, especially when I have no training in the area of astrophysicists.

But I don't know how he could know that for sure that you can't photograph something from the demonic realm.

Right. And so then the question is, then, if we're…. Another option would be, is there some kind of physicality, some kind of craft that is actually a vehicle that is being formed or utilized in some way that is being co-opted or piloted, if you will, by something?