December 4, 2025 Show with Andrew Horvath on “UFO/UAP Occultism: The Quest for Secret Knowledge & Saviors From the Stars”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Harnson. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Harnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this fourth day of December 2025.

The whole subject of UFOs, now given a new nickname,

UAPs, Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon, has captivated the attention and imagination of people globally, probably having a greater percentage of humanity believing that there could be life on other planets than ever before.

There are far less skeptics, it seems to be the case anyway, and even people with wonderful and highly regarded reputations for integrity putting their own two cents into the conversation, claiming to believe that something exists in the realm of intelligent life outside the planet earth.

And today, we are going to have a guest on to try to seek for a biblical

Christian answer to this. I was blown away, actually, by the wonderful job that my guest did at a recent

Future of Christendom conference on the theme that he is addressing today. His name is

Andrew Horvath. He is music director at St. John's Reformed Church of Freidensburg, Pennsylvania, actively involved in men's discipleship and abortion abolition ministries, and was recently, as I said, on the speaking roster at the

Future of Christendom conference in Ephrata, Pennsylvania. And he's going to be addressing

UFO, UAP, occultism, the quest for secret knowledge and saviors from the stars.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Trump and Zion Radio, Andrew Horvath.

Thanks very much, Chris. Good to be here. I've enjoyed hearing some of my friends from Future of Christendom on very recently.

Yes. And please tell us about St. John's Reformed Church in Freidensburg, Pennsylvania.

Yeah, we're a small church, a Reformed Baptist congregation. And we found that church after a long, it seemed like a long time of kind of searching around.

In 2022, my family started attending, and that was after the debacle of 2020 and the great revealing of hearts.

And so anyway, we've been there and started reading music later on in that year.

We have a biblical institute that meets Sunday afternoons at four o 'clock.

It runs nine months out of the year, and we just went on break. We cover all kinds of different topics there for the edification and education of the congregation and greater community.

And I've taught apologetics four weeks this past year for that. But we have a service, our worship service is at nine o 'clock in the morning on Sundays.

And I understand it's a Reformed Baptist church? That's correct. And I believe, if I'm not mistaken, the church, by the sovereign grace of God, was rescued out of the apostate denomination known as the

United Church of Christ. That's my understanding. Yeah, that was before we were there.

But yes, there's been a reformation within that church due to the influence of Pastor Matt Kanitzer, who has also been a guest on your program.

Yes. And I thoroughly have enjoyed my visits to St. John's Reformed Church of Freidensburg, Pennsylvania, and fondly remember, perhaps especially, when my dear friend,

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries was a featured speaker there. Yeah, I had attended that event also.

I can meet him. And if anybody wants to know more about St. John's Reformed Church in Freidensburg, Pennsylvania, the website is sjrcpa .org.

That's S -J -R for St. John's Reformed, C -P -A for Church in Pennsylvania, dot org,

S -J -R -C -P -A. We actually have an updated URL for that.

It's easier to remember. It's allofchrist .org. Oh, great. So I think that old URL probably still goes there, but allofchrist .org

will take you straight to our church, and that's easier to remember. Yeah, in fact, it says for our new website, click here, and I just went to allofchrist .org.

That is easier to remember. Well, before we get into this fascinating topic,

I want you to do something that we always have first -time guests do on this program.

It's a tradition on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. Whenever we have a first -time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include the religious atmosphere in which they were raised, if any, and the providential circumstances our

Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to Himself and saved them.

And we would love to hear a summary of your story. Okay, thanks, Chris. Yeah, I grew up in a

Christian home, nominally so, in Danville, Pennsylvania, where I live now, although I did move away for a number of years and came back.

We are actually a good almost an hour from the church that we are members at, and I serve, but it's hard to find a good one, so we travel the distance.

I was raised going to a United Methodist church. It was not one of these extremely liberal churches, at least at the time that I was there, that you might find at the

UMC. However, I would not call it a church at the time that really taught the

Bible or preached the gospel. And so I grew up going to church, going to Sunday school, learning some stories and things like this, but I did not really understand how to read the

Bible. I did not understand the need for salvation or exactly what that even meant.

It was just something you were born into. And so effectively, I would call myself a moralistic, therapeutic deist at the time.

So I had a sense of right and wrong. I had a sense of towing the line, doing the right thing, being thought of as a good person.

It made me feel good. I believed in God generally, but I did not really know Christ in a saving way.

I had unbelief. And when I went off to college, right before I went to my freshman year, my mother had received a diagnosis of cancer, and it was very fast moving.

She wanted me to not delay because this was the whole hope of my family, was to send me off to college. So I went off to Virginia Tech, but she had succumbed to the cancer within a few months and had died before Christmas of 2001, that same year.

And so all of a sudden, my legs were kicked out from under me. Spiritually, I was kind of just adrift, and I realized that I had this newfound independence at college, and I did not really have anyone, especially my mom, to kind of continue to live so somebody would think well of me.

So I kind of just got away with whatever I could get away with. I was not like a crazy, just off -the -rails kind of person, but I had plenty of sin, and a very proud individual, too, and very prideful of who

I was and what I had accomplished and what I assumed that I would become in college and beyond.

But God brought me up short in that process. My father's death, as well as some other circumstances, had kind of woken me up.

And it was the second year of college, there were several people who I had made friends with who were

Christians and real ones, who Jesus was a real factor in their life. They knew him.

They knew the gospel. They could read the Bible. They went to a campus ministry called Campus Crusade.

We call it CRU. I guess they still call it that. It was pretty big on campus at the time. And through that,

I finally heard the gospel and met a whole bunch of people who, like I said, for whom

Jesus was a real factor and shaped their life, and I wanted that because I didn't have that.

And so, through various circumstances of relationships and things, God brought me to himself through the influence of Christian peers.

I'm so grateful for that. I had other experiences in college that kind of got me out of my comfort zone.

I had gone to Guatemala for a summer with an Engineering Industries International as an architectural intern, and that just was a completely different experience.

I really had to rely on the Lord, but I was surrounded by other great brothers and sisters in Christ that were very influential to me.

So those kind of circumstances were how God got a hold of me and set me on my feet and started walking in his way.

So now today, I've been married for, I believe, 18 years to a wonderful wife who's my best friend, and we have three children together, two boys and a girl.

We just turned one year old, so we have the older boys, and then all of a sudden, we're kind of starting over again. But it's a joy to have this family and be sanctified by their influence all the way.

R .A. How did you discover the Reformed faith? That's a good question, because at first,

I was very resistant to it. I wasn't really aware of it. But what I did was, starting in college and then into my first employment after school,

I was very much interested in listening to the various radio shows and podcasts of all kinds of different—I was just thirsty for knowledge, and so I was just drinking up all kinds of things, especially like antigraphs,

Bible Answer Man. I did encounter R .C. Sproul and others, and at first, the

Reformed stuff turned me off, the Calvinism, because it was very different from the kind of gospel message

I heard in college. It turned off antigraph, too. I said it turned off antigraph, too.

He was very influential in my life, yeah, for a while there, and I know that he's gone on to Eastern Orthodoxy, which is very disappointing.

But R .C. Sproul remains one of my favorite guys to listen to, just a really respected man.

But the one individual who really kind of just made the

Reformed doctrine click for me, one way or the other, for good or for bad, was

Mark Driscoll. You know, he's still around, and I'm not really sure what he's up to these days.

Sometimes I hear some good things, and sometimes I hear some kind of wacky things. But I think that I would say that God can use a broken vessel, just like any of us, to deliver very clear, clean water at the time that you need it.

So that would be kind of my entry into that world.

And, you know, for a while there, the Gospel Coalition was very encouraging until it became pretty ridiculous.

So those were influences, people affiliated with that kind of stuff.

Well, when we come back from our first commercial break, we're going to dive right into the topic at hand, which

I'm sure many of you are on the edge of your seats waiting to hear about UFO, UAP, occultism, the quest for secret knowledge, and saviors from the stars.

If you have a question for Andrew Horvath about this, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Always give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

I can understand that there's some of you who may want to remain anonymous because perhaps you've seen a

UFO and you don't want to identify yourself because you're embarrassed to admit that publicly or something.

Whatever the case is, if you're really compelled to remain anonymous, we will grant you that request.

But if you're just asking a general question, please give us your first name, at least, city and state and country of residence.

Don't go away. We're going to be right back right after these messages. I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession. We embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our triune

God. We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of scripture, loving, encouraging and serving each other as the body of Christ.

In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every

Sunday. We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at trbccarlisle .org.

That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon.

This program is sponsored by Hope TR Ministry. Hope TR Ministry is a podcast produced by Hope Protestant Reformed Church in Walker, Michigan.

We are dedicated to sharing reformed biblical content every Wednesday and Friday. Tune in for sermons, lectures, and interviews exploring distinctive reformed doctrines.

If you are looking for Christ -centered content, simply search Hope TR Ministry on your favorite podcast platform to begin listening today.

Hope TR Ministry also offers Morning Meditations, a daily podcast featuring reformed devotionals designed to nourish your soul.

Start your day with these spiritually enriching messages by tuning in to Morning Meditations, wherever you get your podcasts.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Sule Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor John Samson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Steve Herford of East Fort Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Roy Owens, Jr. of the

Church in Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew

Bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com, to place your order.

Hello, I'm Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You with John MacArthur. I've been a frequent guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I highly recommend this show.

But today I want to tell you about one of its advertisers, Rare Document Traders, far and away my favorite source for quality

Charles Spurgeon memorabilia. Are you looking for that special, unique Christmas gift for your pastor or missionary friend, or a loved one?

Why not purchase a piece of church history that any believer would cherish? Rare Document Traders is your one -step source for Spurgeon's handwritten manuscripts and letters, as well as other rare books and collectible items from church history.

In 15 years that they've been in business, they've earned a stellar reputation in the Reformed community with thousands of satisfied customers all around the world, including me.

Visit raredoctraders .com today, that's raredoctraders .com, and look for their upcoming

Cyber Monday sales. Don't forget to mention you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

That's raredoctraders .com. I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the

SecureComm Group, and an enthusiastic supporter of Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program.

The SecureComm Group provides the highest level of security, close -circuit television, access control, and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings, as well as churches, commercial properties, municipalities, and more.

We custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself, including digital recording, off -site viewing, and connectivity from most smart devices.

From simple code -activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition, the

SecureComm Group has it. We also provide the latest in intercom and IP telephone systems.

In addition, we provide superior networking platforms. We'll create, maintain, and secure your local network.

Whether it's a Wi -Fi or hardwire network, we'll implement the latest secured firewall, endpoint solutions, and cloud backup.

I would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners and their associates.

For more details on how the SecureComm Group may be of service to you with the very latest in security innovations, call 718 -353 -3355.

That's 718 -353 -3355. Or visit securecommgroup .com.

That's securecommgroup .com. This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureComm Group, joining

Chris Arnzen's family of advertisers to keep Iron Sharpens Iron radio on the air.

We here at Iron Sharpens Iron radio praise

God for the generous monthly financial support of Royal Diadem Jewelers, educated by and affiliated with the

American Gem Society, Jewelers of America, and the Gemological Institute of America.

For the perfect custom -designed engagement ring or any one -of -a -kind piece of jewelry created exactly according to your imagination and specifications,

Royal Diadem Jewelers has you covered. No matter where you live in the world, Royal Diadem will walk you step -by -step through every stage of the process and even hold a high -tech internet virtual visit using state -of -the -art jewelry design technology to serve you.

They start by listening carefully to determine your needs. They're interested in making what you want, not what they want to sell you.

From rough design to digital model, to photo -realistic image, to wax prototype model, to the finished product, they are continually listening to your input, likes and dislikes, making any changes necessary along the way.

This will ensure that your custom jewelry will turn out exactly as you dreamed and well beyond your expectations.

Visit royaldiadem .com. That's royaldiadem .com today.

Sterling Vanderwercker, owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers, his wife, Bronnie, his business partner and manager,

Brian Wilson, and the entire family, thank you all for listening to, praying for, and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And if you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio as much as the owners of royaldiadem .com

do, how about giving someone you really love for Christmas a gorgeous, breathtaking, head -turning, stunning piece of jewelry, and at the same time, give

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio a Christmas present? Because every time you purchase jewelry from royaldiadem .com

and you mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, we receive 100 % of the profits from that sale of jewelry simply by our listeners mentioning

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when they make their purchase. So whether you are purchasing jewelry they already have in stock, or whether you're purchasing a customized, one -of -a -kind piece of jewelry that they will design and create for you according to your exact specifications, either way, whether you're buying jewelry for yourself or someone you love, please mention

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when you go to royaldiadem .com and we will get 100 % of the profits from that sale.

That's royaldiadem .com and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And we are now back with my guest today,

Andrew Horvath, and he has in store for us what I believe is going to be an utterly fascinating conversation uh and by the way let me repeat our email address if anybody would like to join us with a question of their own chrisarnson at gmail .com

give us your first name at least city and state country of residence only remain anonymous if your question is personal and private in the area of UFOs.

I know that you must have put a lot of research into this because this is not your background you're not an aeronautical engineer or somebody or you're not an astronomer uh you know you and yet you really uh did one of the funnest presentations at the

Future of Christendom conference that I've ever seen on UFOs and uh first of all obviously

UFO means unidentified flying object UAP is unidentified aerial phenomenon uh it would be wrong to say and correct me if I'm wrong but I think it'd be wrong to say as many people do

I do not believe in UFOs because it just means unidentified flying object and there are identif unidentified cut out there can you say that again uh what

I was saying is it's wrong for people to say I don't believe in UFOs because there are unidentified flying objects by saying uh some people what they mean by that is they don't believe in in uh intelligent life outside the planet earth other than the you know the spirit realm and heaven and so on but uh obviously there are

UFOs and if you want to pick it up from there sure yeah so obviously

UFO is a very generic term um it just could be anything in you see that you believe is in the in the sky that you can't tell what it is um the the sister term which is more modernized and I think it's actually improvement on it uh used a lot

I mean when you're dealing with government uh things they love their acronyms and so UAP is as you said unified aerial unidentified aerial phenomena um and if you want an example of perfect example if you just remember uh exactly about one year ago uh last

December we had on the east coast especially drone fever and uh lots of people seeing all kinds of lights uh looking up maybe for the first time in a long time and kind of some of those reports were identifiable aircraft that people were not familiar with just looking up and seeing blinking lights and this but then there were a lot of very strange things that people didn't really know and I'm not really sure of a whole lot of people who maybe suspected that these were piloted by what we might call it alien life or extraterrestrial life or something like that but they were unidentified and they were they disturbed people a lot

America uh the American audience or the American culture has a very strong uh powerful interest in UFO uh phenomena and and aliens if you will and so I think it's something worth talking about because I think that uh

I propose uh in my talk there thank you for the compliments um that this really is something that the church and Christians need to be conversant in at least to some degree it might not be something that really interests you but I think your neighbors are interested in it and I think that what uh the possibility is is that it uh it makes all kinds of claims uh that are counter to the gospel of Christ um that are not rooted uh seeking answers from the bible and uh

I think that even to the point that we may see and are seeing alternative spiritualities or uh false alternative gospels uh from uh interest in this so that's why

I think that I believe that the church needs to be willing to address any and every topic because God is the creator of all and if we are his ambassadors we ought to be willing to talk about whatever the things are that concern our neighbors for the sake of helping them understand truth yeah before we go into some of the specifics about UFOs and UAPs why do you believe as a

Christian a bible -believing Christian that to believe that God created intelligent life on other planets would be incompatible with a biblical worldview that's a good question um we would really be speaking uh looking to the text we don't have any uh kind of information that that that there was any other propagated planet um however we do know that uh there are other intelligences that God has created

God created an unseen realm inhabited by what we can say angels and demons that may be a little bit simplistic if you really want to dive into that realm but I think that there are there are other and this is actually where one of these acronyms comes in very useful perhaps and that is that even secular people will refer to NHIs which is non -human intelligences or non -human entities and that kind of gets into the realm of where it touches on the

Christian worldview um I believe that the God created this earth as a very unique utterly unique place for humans to live so in that sense

I think it's completely perfectly designed for human life and flourishing and for dominion here and I'm not sure that uh that it is our role or job to be um going out and assuming that we are going to do this on some other planet when

God created this planet as the place for his image bearers and as the descendants of Adam and Eve now

I have heard some Christians uh respond to that question by saying it's impossible for there to be intelligent life on other planets because that would require

God sending a savior to die for those inhabitants of other planets to die for their sins just as he sent us

Christ and that would mean he had uh more than one savior which is unbiblical now one of the reasons

I don't accept that as a valid uh answer by a

Christian which I think I don't know if you've heard that I've heard it many times actually over my 40 plus years as being an evangelical

Christian because I'm Reformed and I believe in limited atonement other otherwise known as definite atonement and particular redemption and if I don't believe

Jesus died for the sins of everyone on this planet why would it require that he needed to send a savior to other planets to die for extraterrestrial sins if you if you know what

I'm saying so I don't buy that as a valid response um in other words there are there are living intelligent beings that we know about right now on this planet for whom

Christ did not die right yeah that's a good response I hadn't really thought about that but that's that's a fair response but the uh it's such a it would be such a vital topic if there were these beings that were intelligent creatures on other planets uh it would it would be remarkable to me that God would not have mentioned them in the word that's my main that's my main reason for rejecting the idea right and I think that what you're finding um in current uh you can use the term ufology if you want ufology uh that's a term in this realm whether uh from the

Christian analysis or not um a lot of uh there's a lot of talk that um kind of just rejects the idea of literal extraterrestrials that we may see you know depicted in Hollywood movies um as residents from another star system or something like that just because the physical distance is so great um and the technology required and there's the travel the speed of light and all kinds of factors that come into this that um

I think that that hypothesis is losing uh popularity uh in in all realms of ufology um and instead looking to explanations then and people have been talking about this

I think since the 70s about uh what they call like a uh and not from beings from another plane of existence another dimension an extra -dimensional kind of inter -dimensional hypothesis not an extraterrestrial hypothesis and uh you know

I'm like again I'm not a uh astronomer as you said or anything like that um but that does it does make sense and I think from a biblical worldview again if we understand uh that there are beings created beings and every being besides God must be created um then uh these have intelligence and some agency um not and and all under the sovereign purview of of a holy

God for whatever his purposes are but we have an understanding from our

Bible that there are um entities and in the angelic plane or angelic realm where that we can't see into and don't understand but have a different purpose and different abilities than we do as human.

Now you gave an excellent breakdown during this lecture on the different responses and options that if people were going to be uh studying and responding to this issue logically you gave different responses that people may have to this phenomenon and why uh you would rule those responses out as not being in harmony with the biblical worldview why don't you go with some of those uh common responses and major categories of viewpoints within this whole realm.

Thanks a lot yeah um so the first one would just be the dismissal out of hand as a total hoax um that um people who claim to have encounters or sightings uh with UAPs or the aliens are not real they're just merely fiction and so they're just people's imagination run amok but and they're and so the people are knowingly lying to you but there are so many um stories uh and told in such a way that I don't think that um you know there's a there's this grand conspiracy among all these different people

I think that they really believe to report what they've seen um and from otherwise credible people so I don't think that uh there's merely just a total hoax another uh you know option going would be just that people are personally deluded they're imagining these things and they they truly believe what they're seeing so the first the first category would be people lying to you the second category would be these people really believe it um their false perception limited to the mind and maybe they're hallucinations from drugs or the result of a mental disorder but there are sometimes physical data there are sometimes group sightings and not everyone who has reported seeing these things um has been on drugs or out of their mind now

I would say that on the the drug use thing that that is something that uh does open people up to all kinds of spiritual influence so I think that there is that could be a factor sometimes but that's not the whole of it um another category of explanation might be just that there's these are natural phenomena but they're misinterpreted so people are seeing stars and planets that they don't know uh or you know a meteor that you know the old swamp gas explanation or man -made objects uh like satellites that they're seeing or drones as we had you know mentioned uh like last year uh but there are many bizarre ones uh or frightening ones that have other factors going on that kind of defied that just as a simple dismissal an option

I suppose is go ahead I was just going to say the the you those who have witnessed

UFOs are not only guys named

Bubba in a rowboat in Arkansas some no offense to my listeners in Arkansas and especially if their name is

Bubba no offense but that's the idea that a lot of critics have and there are very impressive people that claim to have witnessed these things some of them are pilots and astronauts and you know so and people in law enforcement you know so people who are not the initial candidates uh that we would have very little reason to view them as having credibility and integrity

I mean these are people who are upright people many times and highly respected in their fields and in their communities right so um

I believe that uh obviously I'm sure that there are some people who just want to become famous but uh there's such widespread and varied reports from different kinds of people um that I said

I think that we have to uh be open to the idea that people are really seeing something that they're not just I'm just not lying to you there is actual phenomena happening and so the whole question is then what is it um and so as Christians we can't be scared of the truth um and we know that God makes sense of it all although we are not privy to all kinds of information

I mean the other options that you have Chris uh for these explanations would be kind of like it's like the movies the thing that I talked about that these are actual you know

ETs from another planet another star system and they have traveled across the void of space to be here um that seems to be physically uh impossible by many people smarter than me who would say that that's not going to be the case so then one explanation is that these are human craft that these are from secret unacknowledged government programs that the government has been contracting with or creating in their their black budgets all kinds of different piloted craft but it's really just humans up there there's no alien uh involvement whatsoever but then my question to that is then how has this massive leap in technology um been able to be a secret and why keep it secret for so long um obviously there's concerns about weaponization and we know that the government has a lot of secrets they haven't disclosed.

Yeah we still don't know the whole assassination uh so so I mean who knows.

Yeah so then the next explanation that um that holds a lot of purchase with Christians is what

I call the just demons bro uh explanation and so by that I mean that um that these are real spiritual entities um they they are demons um and they are but they are non -physical so they can be seen and experienced by groups and they can harm people somehow but it's uh it's unclear how non -physical but spiritual entities can do real physical harm so there's there's questions that I would say as soon as we get to something that can be seen or heard light and sound are by definition physical so we have we have to understand

I mean we don't really understand but we have to think about the fact that if we just say well this is merely a spiritual entity yes but it's interacting in our physical world that we can perceive and record and um and hear and uh you know the bible talks about spiritual beings um like angels being able to eat and drink and talk to and touch people when they open doors and then there's a you know question it's kind of a can of worms there but I I think that the bible uh teaches that uh

I think in genesis 6 uh the the that uh certain angelic entities left their place and they simply uh reproduce with human women um you know a whole discussion on ethylene that's a whole another topic but I wanted to say that there is uh there's some physicality interacting with uh from the spiritual realm from the demonic or unclean spiritual realm um when it comes to oppressing human beings so that's that's a that's a big topic and that gets into you know um the depths of demonology angelology but I think it's something that Christians can approach uh with with caution yeah and there is debate there is debate about these issues even amongst theologically like -minded people like for instance the whole

Nephilim issue there are even theologically reformed people that disagree with each other on of course yes the nature of what that was and uh and just out of curiosity before we move on from that we have to go to a commercial break in several minutes but uh one of my guests in this program a number of times is

Dr. Jason Lyle, one of the most brilliant individuals alive today and he is a

Christian astrophysicist and he is a young earth creationist and he uh really writes off this whole controversy as being phenomena that can be explained and he does not believe it could be demonic activity because of it being photographed and filmed and in Jason's understanding you cannot photograph something from the spirit realm or film it uh

I mean far far be it from me to uh quickly disagree with such a brilliant person uh especially when

I have no training in the area of astrophysics physicists uh but I don't know how he could know that for sure that you can't photograph something from the demonic realm.

Right and so then the question is then if we're another option would be is there some kind of physicality some kind of craft that is actually a vehicle that is being formed or utilized in some way that is being co -opted or piloted if you will by by something

I mean this is out in the the woo kind of very fringy uh an unknown thing that I think it's a very interesting topic to talk about but the the one explanation

I don't know if we have time uh we'll get to it after the break I'm sure is the idea of um that is advanced by men like Stephen Greer, Dr.

Stephen Greer, who I'd like to talk some about um because that is the idea that these alien entities are benevolent um that they are here for our good um and that we need to open up the doors wide and communicate with them and enter into uh communication and communion with them because they are going to be our saviors um the the dangerous and scary uh disturbing encounters that people have and report plenty of documentation on reports like that from extraterrestrials these are explained by uh by Stephen Greer as the nefarious workings of our government but there are real beings out there that are coming from another dimension and they are to be our saviors and that's why we need to invite them in and communicate with them so we can learn from them and transform and evolve human society and that is where the spiritual uh and religious component of this comes in which is why

I call it occultism. Yeah let's uh get into that when we return from our midway break which is coming up momentarily

I do want to let our listeners know that after this live show is over you might want to look up a couple of interviews that I've conducted on the program about this subject uh for instance four years ago

September 6, 2021 I had Dr. Jason Lyle on the program and a part of the interview was him responding to the current

UFO controversy and also my dear friend for decades going back to the late 1980s

Dr. Ken Samples he was on this program as well and he did a discussion with me that I just had in front of me and it disappeared

I'll look for it in a moment while I'm looking for it I will announce our email address for anybody who wants to join us on the air with a question again chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com as always give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence uh yeah um we have the

September 3, 2019 interview with Kenneth R.

Samples on Lights in the Sky and Little Green Men a Rational Christian Look at UFOs and Extraterrestrials uh

Ken Samples does believe that this is when these are actual genuine reports especially of abductions that these uh may be uh demonic entities so he does not rule them out he is not a scientist like Dr.

Lyle but still very wise Christian man even though I have a lot of different disagreements with Ken on various issues like he is an old earth creationist and so on but anyway um once again if you'd like to join us send us your questions to chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com give us your first name at least your city and state of residence your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

USA and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and we look forward to hearing from you and what you have to say so please don't go away we're going to be right back right after these messages from our sponsors still praising god for the addition of gold wealth management to the iron sharpens iron radio family of advertisers they are veteran owned and operated and built on the values of honor courage commitment and service to others the same values that were instilled in the owner during his eight years in the marine corps gold wealth management is offering free reports on current market conditions the threat of bricks which stands for brazil russia india china and south africa the coming digital currency and how to protect your savings and retirement accounts with real assets like physical gold and silver there is absolutely no pressure and no obligation request your free reports today call 623 -640 -5911 that's 623 -640 -5911 or visit goldwealthmanagement .com

slash iron that's goldwealthmanagement .com slash iron and tell them chris from iron sharpens iron radio sent you don't wait be informed be prepared with gold wealth management hi this is john sampson pastor of king's church in peoria arizona taking a moment of your day to talk about chris arnson and the iron sharpens iron podcast i consider chris a true friend and a man of high integrity he's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the christian faith i've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray i believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide this is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet god has raised chris up for just such a time and knowing this it's up to us as members of the body of christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances i'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting iron sharpens iron financially would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry i know it would be a huge encouragement to chris if you would all the details can be found at iron sharpens iron radio .com

where you can click support that's iron sharpens iron radio .com hello my name is anthony uvinio and i'm one of the pastors at hope reform baptist church in quorum new york and also the host of the reform rookie .com

website i want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the iron sharpens iron radio show like i do you can now find it on the apple's itune app by typing iron sharpens iron radio in the search bar you no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work just subscribe on the itunes app and listen to the iron sharpens iron radio show at any time day or night please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that chris arnson has on the show truth is so hard to come by these days so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news subscribe to the iron sharpens iron radio podcast right now and while you're at it you can also sign up for the reform rookie .com

podcast and visit our website and the youtube page we are dedicated to teaching christian theology from a reform baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers from keach's catechism and the doctrines of grace to the olivet discourse and the book of leviticus the reform rookie podcast and youtube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth and finally if you're looking to worship in a reformed church that holds to the 1689 london baptist confession of faith please join us at hope reform baptist church in quorum new york again i'm pastor anthony evino and thanks for listening puritan reformed is a bible believing kingdom building devil fighting church we are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine in preserved in scripture alone puritan reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets priests and kings we teach families to worship together as families puritan is committed to teaching the whole council of god so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of god as the waters cover the sea we sing the psalms teach the law proclaim the gospel make disciples maintain discipline and exalt christ this is pastor david reese of puritan reformed in phoenix arizona join us in the glorious cause of advancing christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth puritan reformed church believe build fight puritan phx .com

when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm dr joe moorcraft pastor of heritage presbyterian church in cumming georgia and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm antonio vino founder of the reform rookie .com

and co -founder of new york apologetics and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor tim bushong of syracuse baptist church in syracuse indiana and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm eli ayala founder of revealed apologetics and staff member with the historical bible society and the nasb is my bible i'm pastor josh miller of grace bible fellowship church in harrisburg pennsylvania and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm joe bianchi president of calvi press publishing in greenville south carolina and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jake corn of switzerland community church in switzerland florida and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio go to nasbible .com

that's nasbible .com to place your it's such a blessing to hear from iron sharpens iron radio listeners from all over the world here's joe reilly a listener in ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed dr joe moorcraft i'm joe reilly a faithful iron sharpens iron radio listener here in attoy in county kildare earl going back to 2005 one of my very favorite guests on iron sharpens iron is dr joe moorcraft if you've been blessed by iron sharpens iron radio dr moorcraft and heritage presbyterian church of cumming georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters heritage presbyterian church of cumming is in foresight county a part of the atlanta metropolitan area heritage is a thoroughly biblical church unwaveringly committed to westminster standards and dr joan warcraft is the author of an eight volume commentary on the larger catechism heritage is a member of the hanover presbytery built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets jesus christ himself being the chief cornerstone and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great protestant reformation of the 16th century heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers scripture alone grace alone faith alone christ alone and god's glory alone their primary goal is the worship of the triune god that continues the eternity for more details on heritage presbyterian church of cumming georgia visit heritage presbyterian church .com

that's heritage presbyterian church .com or call 678 -954 -7831 that's 678 -954 -7831 if you visit tell them joe riley and iron sharpens iron radio listener i'm simon o'mahony pastor of trinity reformed baptist church in carlisle pennsylvania originally from cork ireland the lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in cumberland county at trbc we joyfully uphold the second london baptist confession we embrace congregational church government and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of god's word for the edification of believers the salvation of the lost and the glory of our triune god we are also devoted to living out the one another commands of scripture loving encouraging and serving each other as the body of christ in our worship we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith and we gather around the lord's table every sunday we would love for you to visit and worship with us you can find our details at trbccarlisle .org

that's trbccarlisle .org god willing we'll see you soon welcome back and before i return to my utterly fascinating conversation with andrew horvath on ufo and uap occultism the quest for secret knowledge and saviors from the stars i just have some important reminders for you folks if you really love this show and you don't want it to go off the air i'm urging you please go to ironsharpensironradio .com

click support then click click to donate now you could donate instantly with a debit or credit card or if you prefer a snail mail sending a physical check at your post office to a physical mailing address there will also be a physical address that appears on your screen when you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com

where you can mail your checks made payable to ironsharpensironradio if you want to advertise with us whether it's your church parachurch ministry your business your private professional practice like a law firm a medical firm maybe it's just a special event you want to promote whatever it is if it's compatible with my beliefs i would love to help you launch an ad campaign as quickly as possible because we're just as much in urgent need of your advertising dollars as we are in your donations anybody who listens to this program regularly should know that we here at ironsharpensironradio have lost two of our largest financial supporters one of which was a christian bookstore in business for 50 years here in the carlisle area that shut its doors permanently a little over a month ago and we lost that valuable income and source of financial support and there was a second advertiser that had to withdraw and there may be a third one on the way so we really need your help to replace and replenish that lost income so advertising is one way and donating is another uh if you want to advertise send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line and with all this urgent pleading for your financial help i do want to remind you i never want anybody in my audience to give their own church where you remember less money than you normally give to your church on the lord's day in order to bless us financially in other words please never cut into the finances that you have specifically set aside for your lord's day giving to your own church in order to bless us never do that i launched this program in 2005 on one of the main pillars of being a friend a platform a right arm and a helping hand to the local faithful pastor and the local faithful church i never want to do anything that harms either including financially so please never give your own church less money to bless us and also if you are really struggling to survive and make ends meet wait until you're back on your feet and more financially stable before you bless us with a gift but if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to provide for church and family and you have extra money for benevolent recreational and even trivial purposes and you love this show please help us to continue to exist go to iron sharpens iron radio dot com click support then click click to donate now and last but not least if you're not the member a member of a christ honoring biblically faithful theologically sound doctrinally solid church like saint john's reform church in freedomsburg pennsylvania well no matter where you live on the planet earth i have helped many people in the iron sharpens iron radio audience spanning the entire globe find churches that are biblically faithful even sometimes within a few minutes from where they live and that may be you too so if you are without a christ honoring biblically faithful church home no matter where you live on the planet earth send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put i need a church in the subject line that's also the email address where you could send a question to andrew horvath on ufos that's chris arnson at gmail .com

give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence and andrew you are just getting into one of the responses uh to this ufo phenomenon which is perhaps the creepiest that involves more of the occultic aspect where people firmly believe in benevolent and kind and helpful uh intelligent life outside this planet and of course we are once again not referring to the spirit realm or heaven or we're referring to extraterrestrials so if you could yes so just a couple points of history that you may uh um want to think of before we get to uh kind of the modern version now i firmly believe and i didn't come up with this phrase but bad theology hurts people and so one of the most uh famous uh in most living memory of a situation where there were there's a cult um called the heaven's gate cult oh yeah actually had started in the mid 70s um it was a ufo cult and the um there's a man and a woman i don't know if they were married but they preached um that uh they and their followers would be raptured by spacecraft and go to live on another planet and in march 26 1997 outside san diego um they participated in a mass suicide um and they this was corresponding with the appearance of a comic called hail bop and they were teaching that um the only way to um escape that the earth was about to be destroyed and the only way to escape that was to um leave the planet uh with them and to go and it would be uh brought up to this spacecraft that was following uh the path of this comet um and so they believed that these uh or at least they taught that these extraterrestrials as they believed uh were benevolent and so that they what happened was uh perpetuated a mass suicide it was very tragic cult event uh but farther back uh manuel swedenborg uh the swedenborgian church was uh started by him um he was a 18th century um inventor and philosopher and different stuff but he had accounts of benevolent uh correspondence with um people from other other entities humanoid like uh people from other planets right and i think that that laid the groundwork for joseph smith i mean mormonism is very much um yeah open i think to the extraterrestrial question oh yeah the battle star galactica battle star galactica was uh written uh introduced by mormons and so there were mormon themes throughout that program and the movies yeah because they teach of of people about humans becoming gods and going to live on other planets and stuff like that so that this kind of stuff is kind of in their wheelhouse uh no i'm not an expert on mormonism but i'm just saying that these these things enter into other religious realms that you may be familiar with the nation of islam is one that's well they believe in the mothership is going to take uh black people and i'm not sure what qualifications are behind that maybe they have to be faithful members of the nation of islam i don't know but it's almost like their version of the rapture i think right so to bring it up to modern day so i i mentioned a man named steve dr steven greer he uh supposedly a former and a former medical doctor emergency room doctor um he's a ufologist now one of the leading uh proponents of what's called the disclosure movement and disclosure uh for those uninitiated disclosure means that um it is the revealing of uh of whatever the government knows about uh ufos and alien technology uh they believe that the government knows a lot and uh they're purposely hiding this again for the purposes of uh you know furthering the military industrial conflict or the uh you know the national security concerns uh that technology might be weaponized but um disclosure another word for disclosure would be revelation right or um uh that there gets to be a very gnostic kind of thing and we're talking about they want they say there's secret knowledge and we want to have that knowledge um so they they view uh people who are in this kind of realm and followers of steven greer uh are people who are who believe that it is uh to humans humanity's benefit that we cultivate relationships with um these extra dimensional creatures interdimensional creatures um who are older they have higher morals they have superior technology they're wise beyond our uh ability uh to to comprehend and so if we learn what they learn and uh receive from them um humanity will uh evolve to a a higher state and a very unified one and and all of a sudden we're you know well within the the the new age camp there's it's a very new age hippie kind of thing but new age is nothing to be um dismissed so easily it's very very influential um around uh the world and i used to live in arizona and we weren't too far from sedona and sedona is a mecca for uh this uh this kind of stuff of all kinds of eastern transcendental type things and uh crystals and especially the ufo interest is very strong there so um stephen greer is a uh he's a central figure there's two uh recent documentaries i think they're both probably on youtube one is called unacknowledged and one is called close encounters of the fifth kind i won't go back into all of greer's um history but he claims to have had an experience with ufos uh as a child and um they enlightened him and so they they develop these protocols together is what he says and i think it's tough to know is he just an agent of misinformation or is he very much a true believer and i i tend to suspect he's a true believer uh but he a true believer in the phenomenon not in christianity correct yes he has nothing to do in fact right he views um christianity as a very much a um you know archaic and and very um benighted kind of uh it was something we must move beyond because that's not where the answers lie um he has no place for christ he kind of scoffs at all things christian um and because these quaint uh antiquated religions of the earth are all uh behind the times and uh and the extraterrestrial saviors are where it's at so he so to explain what he means by close encounters of the fifth kind let me just briefly run through if you don't mind the uh sure kind of taxonomy of this um first kind encounters close encounter the first kind would be seeing a visual you know ufo the second cut the second kind is there's something left behind some kind of evidence mark on the ground or something like that the third kind goes kind of third kind um and this is of course where we have this the

Spielberg movie from uh back in the day uh that is when occupants or pilots of the craft are witnessed um close encounters of the fourth kind are when uh people human beings are brought on board the craft either willingly or unwillingly um so this is the abduction uh phenomenon and a lot of those stories from this believe them or or maybe you don't but um a lot of those are very terrifying uh reports and very scary stories um and again truly believed by by people i'm not convinced that they're all hoaxes uh that they believe that they have had some kind of very close contact that was very um evil and then close encounters of the fifth kind uh is when humans reach out to initiate contact with extraterrestrials in their craft and so this is the this is what um rear uh promotes and there's a there's a podcast um posted by a man named andre cardoso it's called a ce5 podcast and this is what he describes uh this these protocols as it says as humans ce5 close encounters of the fifth kind as humans initiating contact with extraterrestrials this can be done by simple protocols that anyone can do those who engage in ce5 are cutting -edge ambassadors ambassadors to other worlds ambassadors of the new earth ambassadors of hope and so what what this promotes is um various uh spiritual practices of like meditation and is this summoning is what they were doing is summoning they don't like that kind of terminology of summoning is like too forceful they want to say we're inviting um these contacts but um another name we could call it is a seance um they have a steven greer and his folks have developed an app that you can buy that i i don't i've never checked out personally because i don't for many reasons but that you can buy an app on your phone and um it helps you um go through these with the different um soundscape kind of things and guided meditations it helps you connect with other people to to join in a group and you know sit out in the woods or uh you know in somebody's backyard especially at night and call in these um these this phenomena and they have you know documented uh all kinds of strange photographs and videos um and it's uh it's it's kind of disturbing um but this is a this is absolutely a religious spiritual practice um and you know i i think that uh something i read recently was this is an alternate spirituality but the belief that in extraterrestrials is something that actually has gained a lot of secular scientific purchase because um even a lot of atheists famously have said when put to it well where did where did we come from what is our origins and they will say something to the effect of well um we believe that life was probably seeded here from another planet or from another race okay even if that so they're taking an evolutionary view but also they're saying well this is this is uh life on earth comes from somewhere else okay but again it's an infinite regression where where does where did those beings originate from where the christian answer is that god is the creator and god is uncreated himself and all other things are created by him um so what we have here is a lot of counterfeit stuff um a lot of uh you know taking words that we may be familiar with or ideas like ambassadors of hope and saying well the way you want to be an ambassador of hope is um to be part of this emerging evolution of the human species uh that we need to go and make contact and reach out to these non -human uh entities these non -human intelligences um they will never say that uh that these are evil or demonic in any way um they they claim that they are very benevolent and they have no violence and and they deny vehemently um any negative encounters they say those things don't happen and if they do happen they are the result of um again of human governments utilizing um perhaps alien technology and they call them reproduction crafts meaning uh that these are of human origin we took crashed ufos and we learned how to uh use the technology and then those things are used to perpetrate all kinds of nefarious purposes on the earth it gets complicated but uh but yeah i'll just stop right there and see you can ask any questions you like uh well i'd like to go to a listener question that we have uh we have bonnie in omaha nebraska who has a question and i was uh just looking at that question and it seems to oh here it is uh bonnie says in the beginning of the show today the host chris arnzen was airing a black gospel version of the song ezekiel's wheel and i know that there are ufo enthusiasts who claim that the first encounter with a ufo in recorded history was from ezekiel 1 15 through 21 have you heard this and what is your response to what that account in scripture could possibly be and i played i played that by the way tongue and cheek in the beginning of the book yeah i figured yes uh and ezekiel chapter one also think later uh on and described in chapter 10 uh this is a common thing that you'll see with the people who uh okay the one of the most popular uh cable uh news or cable not news but cable shows i think for the longest time was ancient aliens and so this is the kind of stuff that promoted by the the the people they feature on those kind of programs um this i would say that this is um usually advanced by people who don't who are not christians and who do not uh really understand how to use the bible or have a respect for the god of the bible um they they look at as a curiosity um so that is a strange account but i i think that the explanation that i've heard that makes sense is that this is a depiction of the i think some people call it like the mobile um throne of god that uh ezekiel has a strange vision of these wheels within wheels um so uh look i i would just say the um the what's the phrase the existence of a counterfeit uh assumes like the existence of uh the authentic you know the real thing i'm botched that but the point is that um if the the ufo phenomenon that we are accustomed to um has any resemblance to that is because it is uh trying to uh replicate or distort or um otherwise confuse uh and almost mock um the real thing that that god has revealed um so i think that it can be confusing um this the description in the in ezekiel is of the throne of god um that ezekiel is privileged to have this very strange and the description is hard to render exactly well it has a description but it's like really hard to if you try to draw it or or really uh put the description together in our mind i think it's because it was so otherworldly and so much beyond the plane of normal human experience to to get this glimpse of this heavenly uh vision i would just say that that is not how we read the bible was to say like well um look the bible has these as this thing it kind of vaguely resembles what we think of as ufos i mean people have been seeing ufos uh you know again or aerial phenomena or something like that over the years uh maybe you know as long as humanity's been around but a lot of times people say that this is uh adapted to the kind of the technological technological state of humanity uh so that in the early 20th century i think when we first started seeing like uh where humans had developed zeppelins um people would see things that looked like uh airships and now we have things that look more like fighter jets or whatever um so it's it's i think it's a deception i think again my my personal thought is that this is uh this is phenomena created by uh created by or worked out by nefarious entities nefarious spiritual entities we may call them demons uh or or other things that are in opposition to um to christ and his people and i say that this is nefarious just because that those those encounters um they tend to lie when when people have communication with um who they believe are alien like they they always have uh alternate things that do not jive with the christian orthodoxy things that are always distorting uh where salvation comes from um and are a lot of times very frightening and harmful to people i have a book here that is called piercing the cosmic veil by a man named joseph jordan so joe jordan is one of the christian uh writers that i have and he's been on several podcasts that i find very uh helpful in the way he thinks um and this is about a 400 page book and almost half of it um are testimonies of people uh who have experienced various kinds of um the paranormal phenomenon especially in the realm of uh ufos and alien visitations and abduction kind of experiences that they report and every single one of them in this book says that they were stopped uh when people cried out uh to the name of jesus christ so that they claimed that they prayed to jesus christ uh by name and that brought an end to the terrifying experience wow really so this book is uh very interesting and he is one of the the people i'd like to recommend to people uh to go check it out um again it's joseph jordan piercing the cosmic veil maybe we could have uh joseph jordan back on or should i say on the show for the first time and if you'd like perhaps you could co -host the show with me well i he definitely has a lot more experience in this uh than i do um another name uh that i find very helpful is so you're chris you're uh familiar with a cultish podcast oh yeah okay so cult cultures has had on several times a man named uh ray boucher i may be pronounced that wrong to the bosh or boucher is spelled b o e c h e and he is a very careful thinker too and he has um had some fascinating uh writing that you can read his papers uh online and uh and he's on he's been on the culture podcast several times in relation to the ufo phenomena so i think that he and joe jordan are two guys who are uh very uh careful thinkers uh about this and i've learned a lot as i've kind of gotten through some of that stuff absolutely and then if i if i could also just say that um when it comes to uh you know delving into um kind of the bigger picture here which is the the unseen realm a lot of people may be familiar with michael heiser uh he he recently passed away but he was very a prolific writer but uh the the the guy i like to look to um to kind of process michael heiser is because he's a reformed baptist by the name of doug vandorme oh yeah i've had doug on the channel years ago great yeah and and he's um he has a podcast that he was he's been doing um as a co -host uh called reformed fringe and reformed fringe um just is a wealth of really good information and they they interact with uh the you know the kind of unseen realm divine council a lot of the questions that people have about angels demons but through a reformed lens and the reason that i think that the reformed lens is helpful is well not just because of reform but i think it it brings a little bit of balance where michael heiser was famously um anti -calvinist and uh had some a little a little bit some strange things but i think ultimately i think he'll be remembered as a helpful influential writer um but doug vandorme and reformed fringe do a very good job at kind of balancing that kind of stuff out what you'll find in in terms of christians engaging with the ufo topic is um a lot of them have um uh some very i would say i'm post -millennial uh and you know some some different eschatologies of the more dispensational character uh possibly but um a lot of a lot of the people in the ufo uh christian contact realm there are going to be coming at it from a charismatic uh background and um i'm sure there's many uh you know we can learn a lot from from that sector of christendom but i you know like to trust people you know within our camp again haunted cosmos is another good podcast there uh that is a little bit more on the entertainment end but i like the way that they think about these things um so there's a whole lot to go with it just like just out of curiosity how do the charismatics or pentecostals that you have heard or read that have addressed this issue how has their charismatic or pentecostal views uniquely influenced what they have to say about this topic if at all if at all yeah i think that again now some of this is an eschatology but but i think a lot of it is that there's um i think i think they're just like a little bit less careful um reading of the scripture uh and what comes out is you know ufo topics are completely related to like i said the new age but also um the paranormal and occult kind of realm um and there's so much crossover there and so what it comes to in terms of spiritual warfare is um like different ideas that are advanced by different people i'm not really sure like who are the the most influential parties but you know we have to be careful about doing this we don't want to be treat this ashley if we're going to uh take on the topic of spiritual warfare we need to do it um with with the reverence that god's uh word expects of us so we don't um revile angelic uh uh presences uh just casually and think that we got you know we can just command and boss around this and that we we have a delegated authority from christ um so that's why again i think that that book by joe jordan is helpful because he relates these these people uh who would say whatever their you know theological background may be um the name of jesus christ was the the determining factor in resisting this evil attack that was coming at them wow um and that may that may be in all kinds of different uh what realms i mean a lot of people are familiar with the or have experienced the phenomenon of sleep paralysis and so paralysis is uh you know something that um needs to also be looked into but i think it's extremely relevant and related to this topic all right before we go to our final break uh we do have john in sandwich new hampshire i love the name of that city uh and john says from the research you have done were you able to find out if a significant percentage of those especially who claim to be abductees by aliens had any kind of occultic background or dabbling prior to these experiences yeah um based on a non -scientific survey of a lot of the stories i've heard from people um the short answer is yes um like i said these things go together um a lot of times what you'll find is people who have had to report that they've had experiences with um with ufos um that's not the only thing that they've experienced they've also may have stories about uh you know haunted house or uh you know other kind of spiritual um scary stuff going on um uh they very frequently uh have had other kinds of interests in the uh the 40 and the uh or the the occultic kind of practices i and i one of my major um things that you know i i want people to understand is that why i find the um the ce5 where you're summoning or inviting in um this communication uh with these entities i think it's very wrong and very troubling and and to be avoided is because we don't and we don't want to invite in um the the the presence of of evil um and but i think if you go to go looking for trouble i think that you oftentimes will find it now i believe that a true christian cannot be um unsaved i don't i think that a true christian cannot lose their salvation i don't think that they can uh be possessed uh by a demon or anything like that but i do think that oppression um and unwanted attention uh you know is is possible and i think that uh we we uh but most of the time to the short answer the question is yes there are are very often uh situations where people were involved in some kind of occultic practice um whether that's uh some kind of witchcraft sorcery um drug use and and of course um one of the things that is is very concerning is the topic of of um uh you have the psychedelic drug use that you know men like uh joe rogan might promote or sean ryan um you know in ayahuasca and these kind of things where people are going on a journey in their in their minds to leave their bodies and to go into other planes of existence to have community communicate with uh what we might describe as as aliens because they're some other entity that's not the lord but would be a powerful delusion yeah just like the uh nfl great controversial figure aaron uh rogers uh is very highly into using psychedelics we have to go to our final break and if you would like to get on board and ask a question of your own uh when we come back we will go to truman in washington pennsylvania but if anybody else would like to join truman and the others waiting our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

chris arnzen at gmail .com give us first name at least city and state and country of residence don't go away we're gonna be right back i'm dr tony costa professor of apologetics and islam at toronto baptist seminary i'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where i've been invited to speak and have grown to love hope reform baptist church in quorum long island new york pastored by rich jensen and chris for mcdowell it's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of god like the dear saints at hope reform baptist church in quorum who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim christ jesus the king and his doctrines of sovereign grace in suffolk county long island and beyond i hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as i have for more information on hope reform baptist church go to hope reformed li .net

that's hope reformed ally .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711 tell the folks at hope reform baptist church of quorum long island new york that you heard about them from tony costa on iron sharpens iron dr joseph piper president emeritus and professor of systematic and applied theology at greenville presbyterian theological seminary every christian who's serious about the deformed faith and the westminster standards should have and use the eight volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the larger catechism titled authentic christianity by dr joseph morecraft it is much more than an exposition of the larger catechism it is a thoroughly researched work utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology dr morecraft is pastor of heritage presbyterian church of cumming georgia and i urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation for details on the eight volume commentary go to westminster commentary .com

westminster commentary .com for details on heritage presbyterian church of cumming georgia visit heritage presbyterian church .com

heritage presbyterian church .com please tell dr morecraft and the saints at heritage presbyterian church of cumming georgia that dr joseph piper of greenville presbyterian theological seminary sent you.

Bill Sousa grace church at franklin here in the beautiful state of tennessee our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support iron sharpens iron radio financially grace church at franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of god as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our lord jesus christ and of course the end of which we strive is the glory of god if you live near franklin tennessee and franklin is just south of nashville maybe 10 minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby we hope you will join us some lord's day in worshiping our god and savior please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about grace church and freedom our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org

that's gracechurchatfranklin .org this is pastor bill sasser wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign lord god savior and king jesus christ today and always puritan reformed is a bible believing kingdom building devil fighting church we are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in scripture alone puritan reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets priests and kings we teach families to worship together as families puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of god so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of god as the waters cover the sea we sing the psalms teach the law proclaim the gospel make disciples maintain discipline and exalt christ this is pastor david reese of puritan reformed in phoenix arizona join us in the glorious cause of advancing christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth puritan reformed church believe build fight puritan phx .com

i'm pastor keith allen of linbrook baptist church a christ -centered gospel -driven church looking to spread the gospel in the southwest portion of long island new york and play our role in fulfilling the great commission supporting and sending for the spread of the gospel to the ends of the earth we're delighted to be a part of chris arnzen's iron sharpens iron radio advertising family at linbrook baptist church we believe the scriptures of the old and new testaments to be the inspired word of god inerrant in the original writings complete as the revelation of god's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak we believe in salvation by grace through faith in jesus christ this salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of god was purchased by christ on the cross and is received through faith alone apart from any human merit works or ritual salvation in christ also results in righteous living good works and appropriate respect and concern for all who bear god's image if you live near linbrook long island or if you're just passing through on the lord's day we'd love to have you come and join us in worship for details visit linbrook baptist .org

that's l -y -n brook baptist .org this is pastor keith allen of linbrook baptist church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of god not a result of works so that no one may boast the lord blessing in the knowledge of himself truly grateful for many things that the trump administration has ushered in but here's something that seriously concerns me on july 18th president donald trump signed the genius act into law this new law allows financial institutions to convert your hard -earned dollars into stable coins a digital token backed by 37 trillion dollars in national debt they will not need your approval you hand over your dollars and they give you a trackable programmable freezable token this sounds like something out of a science fiction movie they get control and you get surveillance stable coins are not freedom they're a digital leash this is one step away from a full -blown digital currency how stable is a stable coin if your account is hacked or if the power grid goes down for a period of time you can instantly be locked out it is time to get some of your hard -earned money outside of the traditional banking system and the u .s

dollar if you want to have a better understanding of stable coins and the future of money then please call my friends at gold wealth management and request your free report this report is a must read call or text gold wealth management today at 623 -640 -5911 that's 623 -640 -5911 the report is free and there's no obligation again call or text 623 -640 -5911 tell them chris from iron sharpens iron radio sent you greetings this is brian mclachlan president of the secure com group and supporter of chris arnson's iron sharpens iron radio program secure com provides the highest level of security systems for residential buildings municipalities churches commercial properties and much more we can be reached at securecomgroup .com

that's securecomgroup .com but today i want to introduce you to my senior pastor doug mcmasters of new high park baptist church on long island doug mcmasters here former director of pastoral correspondence at grace to you the radio ministry of john mccarthur in the film chariots of fire the olympic gold medalist runner eric liddell remarked that he felt god's pleasure when he ran he knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of god i sensed that same god -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for god that love starts with the wonderful news that the lord jesus christ is a savior who died for sinners and that god forgives all who come to him and repentance trusting solely in christ to deliver them i would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the long island area or queens or brooklyn or the bronx in new york city for details on new high park baptist church visit nhpbc .com

that's nhpbc .com you can also call us at 516 -352 -9672 that's 516 -352 -9672 that's new high park baptist church a congregation in love with each other passionate for christ committed to learning and being shaped by god's word and delighting in the gospel of god's sovereign grace god bless you welcome back uh also folks please remember that this program is paid for in part by the law firm of buttafuoco and associates if you're the victim of a very serious personal injury or medical malpractice anywhere in the united states please call my long time very dear friend and brother in christ daniel p buttafuoco attorney at law at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT 1 -800 -NOW -HURT or visit his website 1 -800 -NOW -HURT dot com and tell dan that you heard about his law firm buttafuoco and associates from chris arnzen of iron trip and zion radio i also want to remind all men and ministry leadership that you are invited to the next iron trip and zion radio biannual free pastor's luncheon which will be held thursday march the 5th 2026 11 a .m

to 2 p .m at church of the living christ in loisville pennsylvania it's absolutely free of charge which includes lunch and every man will leave that place with a heavy sack possibly two heavy sacks of free brand new books personally selected by me and donated by generous christian publishers all over the united states and united kingdom and for the second time we are featuring keynote speaker dr conrad mbaywe pastor of kabwatha baptist church of lusaka zambia africa and also the founding chancellor of african christian university i truly believe dr mbaywe is the most powerful preacher of the gospel alive on the planet earth he will also be speaking at the church where i'm a member trinity reform baptist church of carlisle pennsylvania the night before the luncheon wednesday march 4th at 7 p .m

all are welcome to that event but if you're a man and ministry leadership you can register by sending me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

to attend the free pastor's luncheon on thursday march 5th 11 a .m

to 2 p .m in perry county pennsylvania that's chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line and if you want to attend the event that's open to everyone on wednesday march the 4th trinity reform baptist church in carlisle pennsylvania just go to their website to get more details and directions at trbccarlisle .org

trbccarlisle .org and we have uh john and wash i'm sorry not john truman and in washington pennsylvania who says have you done any research into the first known abductees of aliens or so they claimed betty and barney hill what was going on in their life that would have led them to experience this which even as i understand psychiatrists believe that at least they really believe they were abducted right i've heard that story uh told by many different people uh unfortunately i i i can't retell it here uh for the sake of time or even just my my personal knowledge of it and i don't really know the background um i would say in kind of tagging along to the response i have from the question i it is not the case i i don't believe that that the only way that you're going to experience you know anything from something just like seeing something very strange straight with light and sky called a ufo is because that you've been dabbling around or playing with a ouija board or something like that i think that the that this phenomenon can happen to people to christians and to non -christians and to people who have been involved in dabbling in the occult and not so i can't really speak to that but that is an interesting story so i would just say i have not personally ever experienced anything strange although i've heard i've had some neighbors uh in the past one account in my childhood and then one recent which i would say i had a neighbor who was very freaked out because he believed uh that he he saw a drone uh and he didn't say oh it was a was an alien craft or something like that but it was very uh disturbing to him and that was right in our neighborhood and i wasn't home at the time to go out and take a look with a binocular or something like that it wasn't night um i think this is important um you know i think that the first thing we need to kind of convince christians is to say like um there is something happening that's has a grounding in reality there's some there's some reality to this phenomenon it's not just lies and made -up stories and so as such the christians in the church need to think about how they're going to respond to people who have been involved or disturbed by some shade of this phenomenon i think that it's the duty of the church to to try to think a little bit to engage um you know what this looks like for the of evangelism or counseling or otherwise um i would just say um there is a so much deception and misinformation and disinformation out there and uh lack of trust in the media and an all -time low trusted government i don't trust the government at all i'm a millennial i remember 9 -11 uh and i i have zero trust uh in what the government tells us uh and the joke of course which is a sad joke after 2020 and covid was send us more conspiracy theories because all the old ones are true right um which is which and so we have this crisis of information uh i think right now as a culture that we we don't know what authority we're to listen to and that is why we must be presuppositionally christians and committed to understanding the bible as the only sure revelation straight stick by which we compare all other information coming to us not to say that the only place that we can find something that is true because true is what is corresponds to reality and reality is made uh made by god and god knows it perfectly but god is our authority he has given us a bible to read so you know if i could i just want to like to share a couple of passages of scripture here that i think are relevant if i have time oh yeah you know first john says behold beloved do not believe every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they are from god for many false prophets have gone out into the world by this you know the spirit of god every spirit that confesses jesus has come in the flesh from god and every spirit that does not confess jesus is not from god this is the spirit of the antichrist which you heard was coming and is now in the world already um so testing the spirits um if we're dealing with spiritual entities and uh we're making spiritual claims um we have the the means to test the according to the scripture and by the scripture and then uh galatians paul says i'm uh there's 168 he says i'm astonished you're so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of christ and returning to a different gospel not that there is another one but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of christ but even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preach to you let him be at first uh and on into the corinthians paul says um he talks about false false apostles and deceitful workmen disguising themselves as apostles of christ and no wonder for even satan disguises himself as an angel of light so it is no surprise if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness and so um you know also you know when we look to the law of god we see that sorcery uh divination necromancy summoning public promotion of other gods all these were actually capital offenses in the law of god so we god takes us very seriously and so when we get into the paranormal cultic and uh the ufo phenomenon and and the summoning like i said that the close encounters of the fifth kind kind of stuff that is not something that christians ought to be involved with at all but should be rebuking and refuting um we just do not want to invite uh the the presence of evil into our lives we can know them by the fruit and the fruit is evil um but resistance i would say again i want to emphasize the resistance in the name of jesus christ is time and again reported to end these terrifying experiences if this has ever happened to you or someone you love um or is a trend or something that keeps happening um you know i can't explain it fully but i know that the one who is good and is mighty to save is jesus hallelujah well i have had a fascinating time over the last two hours with you brother uh i enjoyed it perhaps even more than when i saw the lecture when i was physically present at the future of christendom conference uh but how how do our listeners get a hold of that as well in case they want to view that um i would just recommend searching on youtube for the future of christendom uh youtube channel and then there's a playlist for the no other name uh 2025 conference and you can find the the talks from that conference there so if you look up my name my last name is spelled h -o -r -v -a -t -h horvath andrew horvath so you can find my my talk there um if you're interested in uh other things that i've uh spoken about like at our biblical institute you can look up saint john deformed church all christ .org

is our website but you can look us up on youtube also and if you search by my name um yeah that was that talks i get i did four talks on apologetics this past year as well as some other things yeah that was all of christ .org