Limited Atonement (Part 1) (rerun)

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Apostle Paul said, But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

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By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

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Just interrupting Pastor Steve with his laugh, I said to him just before we got on the air, we need a

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Yeah, apps are you. Better than Ash Wednesday. Yeah. We're talking about Ash Wednesday.

How does that all work, Steve? By the way, this has nothing to do with our topic today, but I just want to talk out loud. Hear me talk about Ash Wednesday.

Why would anybody want to do that? Because they've got something they want to cover on their forehead, so get a little spot of ashes on them.

One of my favorite all -time cartoons, you know, there are Christian cartoons, there's even clergy cartoons that I've seen in some clergy magazines, and it showed a guy with something on the middle of his forehead, and it was kind of falling down, and there's these big chunks of stuff, and underneath it, it didn't say

Ash Wednesday. It said Hash Wednesday. Corned beef and hash, man.

Anyway, what we're talking about in our series, we have Pastor Steve in the studio on Tuesdays. It's usually always spicy, as Haley would say when she was a kid when there was some jalapeno sauce.

Jalapeno sauce, she'd say, that's spicy. And so when Steve's in, it's usually a picey program.

Muy picante. And so today we're talking about the doctrines of grace, total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, the effectual call, or irresistible grace, and the perseverance of the saints.

Defining total depravity, Steve, just for a quick review, in general you would say total depravity is?

Means before you are saved, you are dead and unable to choose to believe.

You have no capacity in you. You've been so affected by the fall of Adam that you do not have a free will, and you cannot choose to follow

Christ. Good definition. I heard S. Lewis Johnson the other day preaching about total depravity, and he said this.

Imagine you have a clock, a beautiful clock, handcrafted clock. It's from the

Black Forest in Germany, and you open it up and the wheels are shiny and the mechanics inside are just perfect, but the thing doesn't run.

He said that's a picture of total depravity. You can look nice. You can do good things for other people. You can seem very kind and nice on the outside, but on the inside your will has been affected by the fall, and you can't do anything to promote yourself spiritually.

There's nothing there. Number two are the you. You too. No, it's two is you.

Two is you. Okay, you too. We could talk about the you too gospel, but that'd be another show. Unconditional election, and Steve, you define that as?

Unconditional election is God with his free will, he has a free and unfettered will, before the foundations of the world, chose us in Christ.

He chose those whom he would save. Okay, and how is unconditional election related to total depravity?

Well, because if you believe in total depravity, if you understand that man could never choose

God on his own, then the necessary implication of that is that God must choose us because we couldn't do it on our own.

So therefore God has to do it, and all these things, as we look through the so -called five points of Calvinism or the doctrines of grace, they all tend toward one aim, that they bring glory to God alone.

They make clear what Jonah said, that salvation is of the Lord. Good, and now we come to the next letter in our acronym,

TULIP, T -U -L, and it would be called limited atonement. Maybe not the best definition, we'll talk about that in a moment.

Some call it particular redemption. I can't talk today, Steve. Predicted. Predicted. Redemption.

Particular redemption. He redeems a particular people, or some call it definite atonement.

Tell me, Steve, why is there a correlation logically between the L, the

U, and the P? Boy, this is getting complicated. All right, well, if man is unable, and we've established that with total depravity, and then

God is able and does choose before the foundations of the world, God chooses some to be saved, then he must bring about the redemption, and the way he did that was by sending his

Son, Jesus Christ, into the world to die for their sins and their sins only.

That is a very, very true statement, yet very controversial.

When people talk about, quote unquote, Calvinism, this is the one point. This is the letter that ruffles the feathers of people.

I just heard the other day on the radio, on this radio station, a lady, I think it was a

Dobson show, and she said, Jesus died for each and every person's sin who's ever been born.

And I said to Haley in the car, I guess Hitler's in heaven. Yeah, because if Christ died for his sins, then why would he be in hell?

Well, that he didn't believe. Isn't that a sin? I think it is, and I'm glad Jesus died for my unbelief.

Well, let's back up a little bit. Can I just say— You can say whatever you'd like. I think the actual reason that people really choke on the

L is because if you had something L -shaped and tried to swallow it, it would not go down. Oh, it's kind of like a bone.

You have to eat some bread if you swallow a bone to help it go down. But I digress. I believe everyone limits the atonement.

Everyone limits the atonement. What do I mean by that? Well, I don't know, but Spurgeon said something like that.

The Arminian, in other words, people who don't believe in the doctrines of grace, limit the atonement because they say what?

Well, if I back up a little bit, if you limit the atonement in its intention, for whom did

Christ die, only a certain amount of people, that's limited atonement that we would believe in. That's right. But if you limit the atonement in the such that Jesus died for people, but they don't go to heaven, that's limiting as well.

Right, it limits its application. Good. When we think about this atonement, think about these three kinds of people.

Universalists, Arminians, and Calvinists. Those are just theological shorthand terms.

Whose punishment did Christ bear? The universalist would say he died to save all men without distinction.

These are three categories that John Owen came up with, by the way. You could probably come up with them too. Universalism.

Jesus died to save all men without distinction. He died for everyone. If you believe Jesus died for every person's sin, you're a universalist.

Secondly, Arminian. That Jesus died to save no one in particular. He procured or made salvation possible for people who must decide for Christ.

Number three, Christ died to save a certain number that the Father had given him.

Talk to me, Steve, about how the Trinity even bears out the fact that Jesus died for the elect alone.

Steve Well, I just wanted to back up to what you said about the second proposition there, that Christ died to save no one in particular, that he made it potential, and then they must decide for Christ.

That's a very popular notion. And I think what I find disturbing, and before we get into the other part,

I just want to say, we'll think about, we have to go back to total depravity. If we believe that man is dead in his sins and trespasses, that he is unable, that he is a slave to sin, that he is held by Satan to do his will, then how could he ever choose

Christ? How could he ever choose to believe? And the answer is he couldn't. So there's a contradiction there.

But, you know, if we just looked at Ephesians chapter one, we would see God the Father choosing before the foundation of the world,

Christ redeeming them, and then the Holy Spirit sealing. So we have that same group of people,

God the Father choosing them, Jesus dying for them, redeeming them, and then the Holy Spirit sealing those.

We wouldn't expect the Holy Spirit to seal, to sanctify, to present to the

Father to seal them as his own. We wouldn't expect that seal to be on every single person.

It's clear in Ephesians chapter one and other places that God the Father did not choose every single person for salvation.

Otherwise, if God chose everyone, then, and Jesus died for everyone, then why don't they go to heaven?

Again, it comes down to this idea of free will. And free will kind of intrudes into the idea of God's sovereignty and salvation.

I mean, one of two things is true. Either God is sovereign in salvation or man is sovereign in salvation.

And I've kind of paddled on for a while, but the key point is the Holy Trinity works in concert.

They don't clash with one another. The Father, Son, and Spirit all have the same purpose in redeeming and elect a chosen group of people.

Excellent. So here's how I see it when it comes to the Trinitarian idea. Since God is one, he has one essence in nature, the

Father certainly is not the Spirit, and the Spirit isn't the Son, and the Son isn't the Father, but one God manifest in three persons.

They will do things in concert with one another, in harmony. You can think of a symphony all working together.

And so certainly the Father chooses not all, he chooses some. All deserve to be damned, but he chooses some, not all.

We would all believe, at least evangelicals, that the Holy Spirit only makes alive those same some, not the all.

So then the Son comes along and says to the Father and the Spirit, you chose a some and not the all.

You seal to redemption the some and not the all, but I died for the all, and I kind of one up the

Father and the Spirit. Well, and another way I like to look at it is this way. If we just, for the moment, see the idea that Jesus died for all people.

So then in the end, on Judgment Day, Jesus is standing there saying, you know, as the

Father, everybody comes up to give an account. Actually, Jesus will be the judge, but just bear with me for a moment.

Stand before God and we say, you know, I'd like to get into heaven.

I'm just kind of dramatizing things. God says, well, why should I let you in? And Jesus says, because I died for his sins.

And the Father says, well, I'm not accepting that payment, Jesus, because he didn't receive you during this lifetime.

What kind of nonsense is that? So Jesus is thwarted because of our will.

His death is made of no value because we choose not to believe.

That's a lot more limiting than our limited view of atonement. If you limit the effectiveness of Christ Jesus's death, he died for people that aren't going to go to heaven.

I think you've got a bigger problem than we do. And you say, well, I just don't like it that Jesus only died for a certain amount of people.

Steve, in my opinion, that's the real issue. They don't like it that everyone doesn't have a chance, that everyone doesn't have a possibility.

I'm reading now from Romans 9, and I'm going to read it the right way, then the wrong way.

9 .15, for he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom

I have compassion. That's the right translation. That's the right translation right from Exodus 33.

Here's now the wrong translation, and if you've got your thinking caps, please put those on No Compromise radio listeners.

For he says to Moses, I can have, I have mercy on whom I can have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom

I can have compassion. He could have compassion on everybody. He could say Jesus is going to pay for all the sins of everybody, including

Judas, including Satan for that matter, including everything and everyone, and he will be a universalist redeemer.

God could have done that. But just like God chooses Israel and not the Hittites, He chooses some of the angels, not all the angels.

He only chooses some and has His Son in perfect concert, goes and dies for those sheep.

The Good Shepherd lays down His life for the wolves. The Good Shepherd lays down His life for the goats.

The Good Shepherd lays down His life for the peacocks. No, for the sheep.

Pete That's right. I mean, Jesus could not have been more clear. I mean, when He prayed, He prayed not for the whole world in His high priestly prayer in John 17, but He prayed for those who would follow

Him. There are just so many examples, especially in the

Gospel of John, but where Jesus Himself makes plain that there is a difference between the elect, the ones

He died for, the chosen ones from the Father, those who will be sealed and those who are not. And this idea of fairness, that somehow

God is obligated to be fair, is such a human idea, such a human concept.

It is not a biblical one at all. Well, Steve, you just were quoting John 17, talking about Christ's sacrificial work cannot be separated from His priestly or His intercessory work.

Romans 8 is the same thing. Who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

He is interceding only for the elect, only for His bride, only for the ones that the

Father has given Him that the Spirit will make alive and He dies for. He doesn't pray for everyone.

He doesn't pray for everyone to get saved, or they all would be saved. And so we say here at No Compromise Radio Ministry that the atonement is limited to those that the

Father has limited it by, to, for, how do I say that? The Father has limited

His choice. You pick the preposition, I'll go with it. The Father has limited His choice, His free will,

His sovereign will. His free choice is limited. He only has the Son die for those that He has chosen.

And then the Son only prays for those. He doesn't pray for more. I think I better pray for more. Yeah. You know, and again, it just gets back to this, that if Jesus is interceding, as you just read out of Romans 8, if He is interceding for us, and we believe that, or we believe that it's the elect, but let's say you're sitting there and you go, well,

Jesus intercedes for all people. Well, you're right back to the same problem. Jesus is interceding for people, and then

God the Father is going to say, no, Jesus, I'm not going to hear you on that one. The whole idea is crazy.

Well, it's a visceral thing, I believe, in today's evangelicalism. People start throwing out verses like 2

Peter 3 -9 that we'll talk about soon, and 1 Timothy 2 -4, probably talk about that next show.

But let's just go with what the text says. Explicitly, we are told in these verses that Jesus died for His people alone.

I'm just going to give you a quick preview. The many, Isaiah 53. The children of God, John 11.

Those given Him by the Father, John 6 and 17. His church,

Acts 20. Implicitly, Jesus dies only for the elect in these verses.

His sons, Hebrews 10. His brethren, Hebrews 2. Excuse me, the first one was 2 -10.

His brethren, Hebrews 2. The children, Hebrews 2. The seed of Abraham, Hebrews 2. The people of God, Hebrews 2.

His friends, John 15. His sheep, John 10. And us, Titus 2 -14.

Here's a question for you, Steve. Okay. Did Jesus die for Goliath's sin?

Goliath is already in hell, and now did Jesus die for each and every person that had ever been born? Well, let me ponder that for just a few moments and draw on my reserve knowledge.

No. Did Jesus die for all the people around the time of Abraham who were pagans, who were idolaters, maybe around the time of Nimrod and the

Tower of Babel? Did He die for all those people's sins? Well, let's just even talk for a moment about what it means for Jesus to die for their sins.

What did that mean? It wasn't some kind of execution. He didn't just walk out there and get riddled with bullets.

This was suffering the wrath of Almighty God, having all of eternity, the punishment that those men and women and children deserved who would die and wind up in hell, poured out on Him in three hours.

And the question is, did He die and suffer the wrath of God for every single man, woman, and child, even those who were already in hell?

And the answer is no, He didn't. I mean, the idea is, why would the Father pour out

His wrath on those who are suffering His wrath in hell, pour out that same wrath on Jesus of the cross?

The answer is He wouldn't do that. Yeah, those people in Sodom and Gomorrah that got burned with fire and brimstone and wanted to sleep with the angels and all those kind of things, they were damned, and then

Jesus died for their sins? No. How about all the people on the world, maybe millions of people, they all die in Noah's flood, in the great flood, the worldwide flood, cataclysmic flood, and only eight are saved.

All the other ones were going to have Jesus die for them later? Yeah. It just makes no sense at all.

And people say, well, what do you do, Steve? They say, well, this is just, you know, this is your logic. This is your Calvinistic logic.

You can't use logic. You have to use some kind of scripture instead. The New Testament in particular, but the

Old Testament as well, the New Testament is filled with this language. Here's a verse that we, you know, often use in counseling couples, you know, particularly, obviously husbands,

Ephesians 5 .25. Listen, husbands, love your wives just as Christ also loved the church.

Well, gee, that's nice, but listen, and gave himself up for her.

He died for her, for the church, not for the world. It doesn't say, you know, husbands, love your wives like Christ loved the world and gave himself up for her.

No, it's the church. That's a great point, Steve. In the next verse that he might sanctify the world.

No, sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word that he might present to himself the church.

And so if Jesus dies for you, you mean to tell me as a person who doesn't limit the atonement's effects that Jesus dies for someone, but then doesn't cleanse them and he doesn't sanctify them?

No. Like there's some kind of double atonement going on, one, you know, a higher atonement and a lower atonement simultaneously.

No, he gave himself up for the church to sanctify it, having cleansed it.

I like what Bettner said, Steve, and I think you'll like it. The atonement for people who believe that it is limited to the elect is like a narrow bridge which goes all the way across the stream.

For the Arminian, it is like a great wide bridge that only goes halfway across.

Well, and you have to build your bridge to go the other halfway. But we like to build bridges. We're in the bridge building ministry.

Love can build a bridge. Celine Dion, did she say that? No, no, that was the

Judds. That was the Judds. I didn't know that. See, I'm not very good when it comes to country music, because most of the people who sing country music, if they are

Christians, they believe in unlimited atonement. Yeah, but see, I grew up in the South, so that's kind of my connection.

You did. South Bakersfield. Southern California. A shout -out to West Covina. Let's think about it this way.

This is Mike and Steve, and we are at No Compromise Radio Ministry. We're trying to talk about the atonement.

Is the atonement limited? We are not trying to say that somehow Christ's death was not worthy of saving a billion worlds.

Christ's death is of an infinite worth. His death was sufficient to redeem all mankind.

If there were people on a billion planets who were image bearers, he could have redeemed all of those.

He could have redeemed angels. He could have redeemed as many people as he wanted to, because his death was sufficient.

But we're trying to say today that the intention of the atonement, what is the intent of the atonement?

People say Christ's death was sufficient for all, but efficient only for the elect. That's kind of weaselly to me, because it was sufficient for all.

It was efficient for the elect. But I want to know what the intention was when God the

Father sent the Son, when the Son said, I'll go, propelled by the Spirit of God, did they all believe that we're going to go out and rescue more than the elect?

You know, the question really comes out of this, and I phrased it this way years ago. For whom did Christ die, and will they all be saved?

And when we think about for whom did he die, when Jesus went to the cross, was he thinking about you, me, those who would follow him, or was he thinking about every single man, woman, and child who would ever be born, including those already residing in hell?

And, you know, so the second part of the question really is key. For whom did Christ die, and will they all be saved?

Is Jesus' death in any sense futile? Did he fail in his mission?

He died for sins, but those people are still going to suffer in hell. Did he fail in his mission? And if anybody says he does, then they're in trouble.

But the Arminian won't say that. They'll come back to somehow some personal responsibility, or Jesus died to make salvation possible.

But I say to you, my Arminian friend, and by the way, if you're an Arminian, we'd love to have you come to church this week. We would have loved to have you come the last two weeks, especially.

Amen. But here's what I want to say to you. If Jesus dies for sinners, they're going to heaven.

And the New Testament uses language that's past tense when it comes to the Atonement. So why do you use potential language?

The text says he made redemption possible, or he made redemption. Answer? He made redemption.

He made reconciliation possible, or he made reconciliation. He made reconciliation. That's what 2

Corinthians and Romans 5 will talk about. How about he made propitiation possible? He did the best he could, he laid down everything he could, and now it's up to you to make the final call.

No, he satisfied the wrath of God. And if Jesus satisfied the wrath of God for you, you're going to heaven.

That's right, and there's no two ways about it. If God is not angry—and that's what propitiation means, he satisfied the wrath—so if God is not angry with you anymore, then you cannot go to hell.

We're going to do part two next week, and this is No Compromise Radio with Mike and Steve. This is a pretty picey topic.

See you next time. necessarily reflect those of WVNE, its staff or management.