Life for Life: Analyzing Biblical Justice in Exodus

Well, this is another crossover episode. I am the host of The Rap Report, Andrew Rapaport, where we are part of the

Christian podcast community, and I'm here with a fellow podcaster from the Christian podcast community, and we're sharing it on his podcast as well.

And it is Street Talk Theology and Pastor Dominic Romaldi, is that what you want me to say?

Yeah. It's good to introduce yourself. I like to throw him off, folks. He's a New Yorker. Come on.

He should be. He should be on the ball all the time, always expecting a curveball because he's a

New Yorker. He throws me under the bus all the time. Well, your city throws our whole state of New Jersey under the bus, so it's only fitting.

So if you've been following with us for the past few episodes, we have been working together our way through Exodus 21.

And there's a lot in this, Pastor Dom, I think you would agree, there's a lot in this, there's a lot of meat in this one chapter that is very fitting for today.

Yeah, I think sometimes we read this and I always try to tell people you just don't want to read to read it.

But Andrew had pointed this out when we started doing this Exodus 21. There's a lot here, not only exegetically, but hermeneutically that lines up for today.

And I think we're trying to do our best to do that. And yeah, there is a lot here for sure.

Yeah. And so if you've missed the previous episodes, I encourage you to go back and listen because they do build one on top of another.

And so it is helpful to make sure that you have all of that.

So we left off as we started in chapter in Exodus 21, we started talking a whole thing about slaves.

There seemed to be this issue with people that would have a slave and there was a divorce.

Some people argue, well, God endorses divorce because the slave that puts himself into slavery and marries someone, well, when his time is up of the slavery, he would go out without the wife and children.

We explained all of that. If you're really interested, well, then go back and listen. We talked about what to do if someone's daughter was given over as a slave, kind of to be a wife and the guy wasn't happy with her.

What happens in that circumstance? If you're curious, go back and listen to the last episodes.

Now what we're covering, we started to look at the issues of a man striking another person.

So you have two people in a fight. Now, I'm just saying, Pastor Dom gets into a fight.

He's a New Yorker. He's going to fight dirty. He's going to win because that's how

New Yorkers are. Right, Dom? I'm going to wind up getting stoned according to you. We talked about the relationship between parents and children.

That's where we left off. But this does play into what we're going to see, the context.

It starts in verse 12. We won't read there, but it starts in verse 12 where it says, if a man strikes another man and it causes death.

So we talked about the different consequences if two people get in a fight and one kills the other or doesn't.

We talked about that. And then we talked about if there's someone who strikes his father or mother, or there was that.

Then we talked about if someone kidnaps a man, this is verse 16, whether ...

Now this, I want to say, because I can't remember now if we mentioned this in that last episode, but ...

Did we leave off on 15 or did we leave off on 18, Andrew? I think we finished up to 17 because we finished up where if someone curses a father or mother.

Yeah. You're right. Why don't we do this? Why don't you read, at least let's read 15 to 21, if you don't mind, and we'll see if we could get down past 21.

We'll see. Okay. 15. And again, we are in Exodus 21, verse 15, and he who strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.

He who kidnaps a man, this is verse 16, whether he sells him or he is found in his hands shall surely be put to death.

And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. And if man contend with each other and one strikes the other with the stone or with his fist and he does not die but remains in bed, if he gets up and walks around outside on his staff, then he who struck him shall go unpunished.

He shall only pay for his loss of time and he shall take care of him until he is completely healed.

And if a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall surely be punished.

Verse 21, we'll stop there now. But if for a day or two he is able to stand, no punishment shall be taken for he is his property.

All right. So, what we have is just a recap. We last picked up where the parent -child relationship and that so serious is

God to the family relationship that verse 15, verse 17, if someone strikes their father or mother, they should be put to death.

And then basis, even if they were to curse their father or mother, they should be put to death.

And we talked about this, Pastor Dom, that would be a change to our culture, right? Yeah, especially now when, you know, years ago, it's a shame.

I mean, years ago, there was many years ago, there was a lot of respect for parents. And today, we've lost that today.

So today, the criminal court systems would be really packed if this was in vogue for today, that's for sure.

Yeah. And so in the middle of that, we did mention last episode, if a man, someone who kidnaps someone.

So this was the whole issue of the African slave trade. And we've mentioned this a bit, but worth repeating, because so many people get this wrong.

So many people will say, Pastor Dom, that the Bible supports slavery. And well, it does.

We saw that earlier in this chapter, different kind of slavery than what most people think of slavery.

We'll touch on that in a bit. But the thing that people do is they make a logical fallacy.

They'll say the Bible supports slavery. Therefore, the Bible supported the

African slave trade, where they kidnapped people and made them slaves. But verse 16 denies that.

In fact, in the South, when African slave trade was going on in America, they actually took that verse out of their

Bible. So that when they would read the Bible for the African slaves, they didn't want them knowing that the

Bible condemns the kidnapping of another person. It's the complete opposite of what happened in this slave trade.

I mean, it's just the complete opposite. And it is because, as we're going to see, the Bible doesn't teach that people are property.

And that's going to be the big difference. And that's why if you kidnap somebody, whether he sells them or is found in his hand, he gets put to death.

So kidnapping another person is the idea of taking an ownership. And that's worthy of death, according to the

Bible. Not only that. But I mean, even the slaves that were here working for the master, after six years, if they came in there with a wife and a child, they can leave if they wanted.

If the master acquired a wife and a child for them, and if they wanted to stay and be married and give themselves to the master, they had that choice.

So there was no... This is way different than the African slave trade, for sure. That is correct.

And so now we pick up in verse 18 for what we're going to look at here. And it says, if men contend with each other, and one strikes the other with a stone or his fist, but he does not die, he remains in bed.

So this is the idea. If you think back to what we said in verse 12, it's two guys that get into a fight.

One, you know, if the one dies, he gets put to death. And then it said in verse 14, if the guy acts, you know, like, but in verse 13, if it was an accident, he can flee to a city of refuge.

14 said, if he did it purposely, he was planned, he was premeditated. He did it out of deceit, then he dies.

So now Moses is returning to this, and now it's two men who are fighting each other.

And one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist. So it's not just a pushing match.

You know, Pastor Dom wants to push me out of the way because he wants to make sure he pays the bill when we go to the restaurant.

It happens. He's a violent kind of guy that way. You know, he wants to make sure he gets the rewards in heaven, that guy.

You know? Oh, you got a thick text of Jesus. You see, Andrew's using an isogesis, using me in the text.

Well, I'm isogeting what happens when you and I go to restaurants. That's different than, you know, when it comes to Scripture.

I'm more careful with Scripture. You are. So here you have the situation where Moses is returning to two men getting in a fight, but he's being more specific now.

They're contending with each other, but one is striking with a stone or a fist. So he means him harm.

And it says, but he does not die. He remains in bed. And it says in verse 19, if he gets up and walks around outside on his staff, then he who struck him shall go unpunished.

Okay, just pay for the loss of time. And he shall take care of him until he's completely healed.

Now, it's interesting whose responsibility is it to take care of him? The one who hurt him.

Yeah. So when Pastor Dom and I are at that restaurant, he hurts me because I fall over because he was trying to pay the bill.

He's got to take care of me. You know, he's going to have to pay the bill, I got to take care of you.

But notice the thing. So the person doesn't die in this case, unlike what we saw earlier.

So Pastor Dom here, as we look at this, the guy is able to recover in a few days.

Therefore, the idea here is he might have been out of work.

He lost some time from work and that time has to be replenished to him.

So in the case of if it's Pastor Dom and I and I knock him down and he's out of work for a few days and the church says, well,

Pastor Dom, you haven't been working these three weeks. You haven't been preaching. We're not going to pay you for these three weeks.

Then I would have to pay Pastor Dom for the three weeks he's out of pay. Maybe his church, they only pay him per day.

And I also have the responsibility of taking care of him. So not only do I have to pay for his time, but I would have to take out of my own time to care for him, to make sure he's healed, which

I think, I think, Pastor Dom, let me know what you think. But I think this also means, hey, if there's some medical care, if there's medical expenses,

I would have that responsibility to take care of you and pay whatever bills it takes to help you heal.

Do you see that the same way? Yeah. And I wonder, I wonder the attitude. You got to wonder it's of the attitude of the person that hurt him now has to turn around and kind of befriend him, not only befriend him, but take care of him, which is, which is interesting.

Right. I mean, so you can't, I mean, you can't hold a grudge now. Here you are, the guy that, the guy that you hurt, you're going to actually take care of.

So it's almost a type of reconciliation. Right. There's going to be some type of reconciliation there.

Correct. And I can't help but to think of a parable that Jesus told that does make me find value that parable a little bit more.

And it's the, the, when Jesus is asked who is his neighbor and he talks about a parable we know of as the parable, the good

Samaritan. And the reason I find it interesting is knowing this is the law, the robbers are, you know, should have had the, by law, they should have been taking care of this, this guy that they robbed, that they beat.

And here you have the, the, you know, the Jewish leaders, you know, that are explained as they walk by the

Levite and the Pharisees see him and, and they do nothing, but they knew the law.

They should have did it, but a Samaritan did what we see here, a man, the man who striked him should have done.

He takes care of him, says, okay, let me, let me pay the expenses, let, you know, here's some money for any of the, any for the room plus any of the medical.

I see that as a really kind of, as something that really would have hit in the face of the

Jewish leaders, because keep in mind, the typically typical Jewish men at the age of 13 would have the

Torah, the first five books memorized word for word as part of their bar, what we call bar mitzvah.

And so they would know this passage. The, so some, that's an interesting parable because I think the, the, the question, and you can correct me if I'm wrong.

I think the question is, um, the, the wrong question is who is my neighbor?

The right answer is to be a neighbor, right? Not who, once you say, who is my neighbor?

You know, I, I don't mind being neighbors with Andrew cause I love him, but the problem is what about the guy that you may not love as much as I love

Andrew? So it's not about who is my neighbor, it's be a neighbor, right? Yeah, because the reality is that if, if you, well,

I mean, even Christ said, you know, it's easy to love someone who's, you know, who's a friend who's lovable, but it's loving your enemy.

That's, that's the hard part. So, so this is a basic care.

This is now a case where you have the two men were fighting. We first dealt with the fact that one kills the other here.

The person doesn't die, but there's restitution that needs to be made. Now he had to be a neighbor, right?

To the person he harmed. Yeah. Yeah. And, but in this case, you know, I'm just going to point this out because people talk about restitution nowadays to, you know, people are talking that there needs to be restitution for people who were, uh, that are black in America because their, their families, you know, because of the, the slave trade.

But I want you to notice this guy doesn't pay restitution to someone else in, in, in what

Moses says here, he has restitution is made to the person he hurt.

Yeah. Now I will say, Pastor Dom, I'm going to get myself in trouble. I do support, you know, the idea of reparations

I do. And that surprises you, I'm sure. But I do. I've always said this for years. I think that if we're going to say that blacks should get reparations because of slavery, because of things that their ancestors had to suffer and that whites should have to pay it because ancestors, you know, descendants of, you know, their descendants of slave owners, which my family never was, we were

Russian and Romanian, there wasn't the, the African slave trade. But I really think Pastor Dom, that if we're going to be accurate to it,

I think that Democrats who were the party that supported slavery, were the party of the

KKK, the party that fought against the civil rights movement up until they realized who we can give them welfare and then they'll keep voting for us.

The ones that try to keep blacks enslaved today on welfare, I think

Democrats should pay the, the reparations to all the blacks. And then the blacks should turn around and give that money to all of the, the, you know, white

Republicans that fought to free them. I, that'd be fair, right?

You know, you know, you know, you know, my brother always has to throw a little politics into the game.

Right. I mean, like if you're going to say, Hey, it's, it goes, it doesn't go all the way.

Right. But when we look at this though, Pastor Dom, I think that we see that what the

Bible is laying out is that there is a responsibility. If you hurt someone, you have the responsibility to pay for their lost wages, to help with their, their care.

Right. It's, it's, if now, if the person is, dies, it was different, right?

So the contrast here is being somebody who doesn't die, they get injured, but they can walk away.

Even, even if it takes a couple of days to walk around on a staff. The idea is he, he recovers.

And that's going to be a really important thing, especially as we get into verse 22, Pastor Dom, which we're going to see if we do it in this episode or next.

But we got, we got a treat for folks for that, don't we? For when we get to verse 22, we got a treat.

Yeah, I think, I think, I think, I think you, you made a good point on that. You sent me something to listen to, but I'll wait for,

I'll wait until we get to there. Yeah. So as we look at this with, up to, to verse 19, we see it, he's got the responsibility to care.

Check out what it says in verse 20, 21. It says, and if a man strikes a male or female servant with a rod and he dies at his hand, he will surely be punished.

Okay. But if for a day or two, he is able to stand, no punishment shall be taken to him for he is his property.

Now this one word property, people get into a big issue. Is this the idea of the

African slave trade where they would say, this is my property. In other words, I own this person.

Well, the word property in the Greek literally is translated as silver or money.

Now, as we look at this, Pastor Dom, I'm going to be curious to see what you think, because looking at, we just looked at it with the man who has to take care of in verses 18 and 19, take care of the person.

We're dealing with a person in verse 20, you have a slave and they die.

What is the punishment for the person who kills his own slave? He shall be punished.

Yeah. So what would, what do you think the punishment, if we look in the context, right?

We've been seeing. Eye for an eye. Yeah. That's the context here. So if the servant was to die, the context would say, so does the man who strikes his own slave.

Because the contrast we had, the man who's contrasted when we looked at in verse 12, the man who strikes someone and dies contrasted with the case where the person doesn't die.

Now it's not two free men. It's one, a master and his slave.

So if the slave was to die, so does the master. Mm -hmm.

Because he dies at the hand of the master or under the master. So I think now when we look and we see what we saw in verses 18 and 19, that's compared to versus 21, right?

If he can get up after a day or two and able to stand, no punishment shall be given.

Well, first off, whose responsibility was the healthcare for the slave? We looked at this previously,

Pastor Don, but whose responsibility was that? Who had the responsibility of caring for the health of a slave?

The master. Okay. So in verse, when we saw in verse 20, or sorry, verse 19, you had two guys fighting.

The guy who has to take care of them there is the guy that did the harm, right? Yes. Okay.

So if the master already has the responsibility to take care of his health, is there any reason to reiterate that?

No, no, it's already, it was already in the context. Correct. You see folks how

Pastor Don, it's, it's, he's looking at the context because that's what helps us here. That's why we're working through this whole chapter one verse at a time.

So he already has that responsibility. So now do you, Pastor Don, as we look at this verse 19, verse 21, here, you got a slave who survives just like the man who survives in verse 19.

And there's no punishment for him. Well, what was, was there a punishment for the man? You and I got into an argument.

I push you down. You got, you were able to recover. Was there a punishment? Not according to verse 19, right?

It says he, he who struck him will go unpunished. Unpunished, unpunished.

That's right. So, so here, the argument that people say, well, this is, this slavery is property.

The idea, now there is one difference here, Pastor Don. If you and I got into an argument and you lost out of wages,

I had to pay your wages. Didn't I? Yes. Who paid you the wages of the slave?

Well, the master already does that. Yeah, the master, he's already paying anyway.

Yeah. He already has that responsibility. So there's, so the thing is, is that the two things that if it's two free men that get into an argument, that the two things that they, that the guilty person has to do for the innocent person is already paid by the master.

He already has that responsibility. So that we, with that, we see this context of that.

If it's a free man or it's a slave, they go away unpunished.

I, I'm, I want to point this out, Pastor Don, because you may have heard this argument too, as people will say, see, it's, it's proof that is property because the guy doesn't get punished for harming a slave, but he also doesn't get punished and harming a free person either in the same way.

Yeah. Same car. Yeah. Same, same deal. And context is important. And because this word property actually, it literally means silver or money.

Who actually. The actual word is money. Yeah. The literal translation.

That's the literal translation. And so who is it that's out of money? If the master hurts the slave.

The master. That's right. You see, so, so the issue here is they say, you know, well, for he is the money.

In other words, he's the one that's producing the money for the master. So he, he is taking an indirect punishment because he's, when his slave is not working, he's not making the money.

And I got the literal translation. Like you said, only if he remains a day or two days, he is not avenged for he is his money.

Oh, if he's not able to work, the master is the one that's going to be, uh, is going to lose out.

Correct. It's the whole master slave relationship.

And I want to reiterate all that because we did in previous episodes, but it was an employer, employee type of relationship.

The, the, the. It sure was. It sure was. Yeah. So the, the person, the master makes the money from the workers, but if he hurts a worker and that guy's not working, he's not making the money.

He's the one that's out. Yeah. He's out the money. So, so you see here that there's this protection that we have, um, for the person who is killed versus the person who's injured.

And, you know, I know I've been doing most of the talking here, pastor Dom, as you've been looking up the, the, the literal

Bible there, right. But I think that we can see when we look at the context, we do the comparison in, in the whole text.

I think this is an argument against people who try to say, because the word may say property or, or they say that because the guy is, is not facing a punishment because it's a slave that they try to argue.

That's proof that the Bible teaches that it's a slave is property. Well, we just proved that that's not the case really.

I mean, uh, again, looking at context, looking at the original language, those things are important.

That's why the Bible says to study, to show yourself approved the watchman, right. I think that's the, the important part.

I think a lot of people just read this and they want to, they, they do want to use I said

Jesus basically just make it speak to what they wanted to say. So, um, and the reason

I'm following along is because this is important stuff. I think the stuff that we're talking about now, it's important.

It, it, it relates it today. And we want to be careful of just misrepresenting what the word of God says.

So I think it's, I think these conversations are important. Um, and one other, you got people,

Andrew, when you got people that are just going to look at the Bible and make it want to say what they think it should say, that's, that's where we get these issues.

So, um, you know, I think what Andrew's, what we're just trying to do here is to have proper, um, exegesis so we can bring it in rightly to today.

And I think we've done that. Um, and people who disagree, then you need to study and look, and I'm sure

Andrew will be up for debate if you want to debate on this. But, um, with respect, but I think that the scriptures say what they say.

Yeah. And, and we'll wrap this part up with this is the fact that if you really want to evidence that the

Bible doesn't teach it, that humans can be owned by other humans, that they could be property is, and we don't have time to look into it, but if you look through the scriptures, if a man law, if a man, uh, cattle was to go off to the neighbor, the, the, because it went astray, the neighbor does not have to return the cattle.

But if the slave goes astray, sorry, I have that reversed. If the cattle goes astray, the person has to return the cattle because it's property.

But if the slave goes away, they don't have to be returned. Why? Because they're not property.

And also slaves got paid a half day's wage because they were there to make up money that they owed to people.

So with that, I think, um, that'd be a good, a good part to, to stop for this before we get into the next section that we want to look at.

So with that, maybe we'll give a little word from our sponsors because pastor

Dom, it's good to have sponsors, right? And you love, you love our sponsors. Yeah.

Yes. But, uh, yeah, especially those pillows. You love, well, you love some of the sponsors.

You, you love the, my pillow sponsor because you like your, your, my pillow as much as I do.

And if you guys get a good, want to get a good night's sleep, you will do the same. You'll make sure that you get a, my pillow sleep is really, really important.

I mean, if you guys could take a look at Dom and realize he looks like he's 60, 70, 80 years old.

He's only 30 years old. He just didn't get sleep when he was younger. And that's why he looks so old.

That's why he didn't have a, my pillow when he was younger. And so now he's got a, my pillow and you know, it's, he's doing much better, but it's seriously a good night of sleep is really important.

Folks don't, uh, don't really realize. And I'm one who, when

I was younger, I didn't take my sleep valuable enough, but it is really important to get a good night of sleep for, for health reasons.

It's when your body is going to rejuvenate. And if you have someone, my bride has trouble sleeping. She she's up.

She has a hard time getting back to sleep and it's really difficult, but we've gotten better because of the, my pillow products.

And so I just, I don't have as much of a problem. I could sleep really quickly, but I have slept longer because of my pillow, because that was where I struggled.

I didn't, I wouldn't stay asleep. And so if you go to mypillow .com, use the promo code

S F E that'll get you the great discounts you get with, with them. And it lets them know that you heard about them here so that you can, they continue sponsoring us so we don't, we don't want to put everything behind a paywall.

So when you help our sponsors, that helps us. Of course, if you really want to help us at striving for eternity, just go to striving fraternity .org

and you can donate there. That's the best way. And so the, you know, the, the, the sponsors

Pestodom doesn't like is the cold plunge. He does not want to get into a nice cold plunge for health.

Yeah. So, but if he did, I think if he did, he would want to go to strivingfraternity .org

slash plunge to get himself a nice cold plunge, because that would really help rejuvenate him.

I mean, he wouldn't need coffee anymore. You know, he would have that cold plunge and be awake and alert the whole day.

But he might, he might be more the kind of guy that wants to get himself a sauna. And so I got my sauna at pod company and you can go to strivingfraternity .org

slash pod P O D. And that's our affiliate link for them.

Let's them know that you heard about them here. A nice, you know, you can get a sauna that could be in your house.

That is not one of these big things, but still they got one that can actually get up to 180 degrees within 15 minutes, 20 minutes.

And it's easy to set up. Could even be portable. Maybe I'll take it when I come, when

Pastor Dom invites me over, I'll bring my sauna. So those are some of the sponsors that we have at Striving Fraternity.

So if you guys could, you know, reach out to our sponsors, it is a big help.

Well, Pastor Dom, as we continue looking through Exodus 21, we do come to a very interesting passage here that kind of deals with some things that a lot of people are up for debate nowadays.

So as we were continuing our study and this is a crossover from the wrap report,

I'm Andrew from the wrap report, Pastor Dom from Street Talk Theology. Pastor Dom, why don't you read verses 22 and 25?

And we said previously that we have a treat for folks in this episode. So, Andrew, I'm going to I'm going to because I know this will help in exegeting this.

I'm going to read this from the literal translation right from the Hebrew. Is that OK?

You're going to read you're going to read in Hebrew. I want to hear the I want to hear you speak Hebrew. I'm going to read I'm going to read in English the literal translation to the

Hebrew. OK. I think that'll help. I think that'll help when when we speak about this.

I'm going to start in 22. Sure. And when men strive and have struck a pregnant woman and her children have come out and there is no harm to them, he is certainly fined as the husband of the woman.

He is certainly fined as the husband of the woman lays on him. And he was given through the judges.

And if there is harm to them, then you have given life for life. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, strike for strife.

Is that good right there? Yeah, I think that's that's good. So if folks have been tracking with us in the past few episodes that we've covered, there's something

I think they might have picked up. And when you were reading, right, the idea of whether there was an injury or not, right, whether a person dies or is injured.

And I had sent you you and I were going to record this, and I happened to be listening to another podcast.

And I heard someone ask a question. So Pastor Dom, let me play something from a from this is coming from the for folks who know who

Charlie Kirk is. He would go on college campuses and answer questions. And this was a question he got asked.

I'm going to play the first part and then then we will discuss it. And then I want to pick up where where Charlie gives an answer, because I think

I think as we look at the context here, we might be able to give a better answer. So this is the question that came up from this passage.

I want to talk about the debate of abortion. So I know that it's something very controversial.

Some people are pro choice. Some people are pro life. Before I start, I want to make sure that I understand your opinion fully so I don't take what

I've heard online. What is your stance on abortion? Life begins at conception. OK, so where do you so conception?

So is that when sperm enters the egg? Is that during when new DNA is formed? OK, when new

DNA is formed. So the egg by itself, you don't think is anything. Sorry, the egg of a woman by itself.

Do you think it's something? But it's not a life. Correct. OK, that's OK. So my question is, when you talk about abortion and why you think you why you support it, why you don't support it, sorry, why you don't support it, what do you use as your evidence to use scientific evidence?

Do you talk about the Bible? Do you use both? Mainly self -scientific and self -evident reason. OK, so are you someone who's a follower of the

Bible? I am, but that's not relevant to this discussion. But we could talk about it if you like. I find it relevant because when

I'm going to talk about abortion, there's there's quotes in the Bible that I think support pro -choice, in my opinion.

22 through 25, when men strive together and hit a pregnant woman so that her child come out, so miscarriage.

But there is no harm to the woman. The one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him and he shall pay as the judge is determined.

But if there is harm to the woman, you shall pay life for life, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, striped for striped.

So I know that that can be interpreted different ways. The Bible is interpreted in many ways different. There's different types, different interpretations.

But this says if a person causes a miscarriage through a woman that they will pay for the abortion so they will pay.

Another one will punish them. OK, so as we look at that, Pastor Dom, now, I think you and I both agree.

We we I would disagree with Charlie Kirk saying not to use the Bible. Yeah, you want to use the

Bible. We don't. And you know, Andrew, you know, for Charlie and you know, when you're sometimes when you're in a position like that and something comes up, you know, sometimes, you know, it's you know, you're just trying to speak.

And sometimes, you know, you go back and say, well, I could have said this or could have said that. So I but I think

I think you're right. We need to use the Bible for this stuff. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, this is the thing is the

Bible is our answer for truth. He wants to use science. And I forget what he first said, kind of basically common sense.

Yeah, science. Well, he said science and like natural law, I think he said.

But where do you get that natural law? You get it from the Bible. And so I but as we look at what she said,

I want to replay this because there's there's interesting what happens here. The way she reads, she is she is it took me a bit to find out, but she is reading from the

English Standard Version. And she adds a word to this. Check it out.

Exodus 21, 22 through 25, when men strive together and hit a pregnant woman so that her child come out.

So miscarriage. Did you hear that? Miscarriage. That's not in there. Miscarriage. That's not in the text.

That's right. And so she added that she's now that's her interpretation. But is that a good interpretation,

Pastor Dom? How about you read that the literal again? Yeah, the literal. Yeah, I'll go literally.

Let me just wait one second. Let me get the literal translation on 22 then. And when men strive and have struck a pregnant woman and her children have come out.

And there is no harm to them. He is certainly fined as the husband of the woman lays on him.

And he has given and he has given through the through the judges. OK, so the literal is children come out.

The word there for children means a boy or a youth or a child.

And the word come out. I know this is going to shock you, Pastor Dom. It literally means come out.

Yeah, that's exactly what it means. So, I mean, as I look at this,

Pastor Dom, let's go back to context. It's something you keep bringing up, right?

When we look at the context here, the context is saying that you have a case where we saw the context before with the the the two guys that get into an argument with a slave.

Right. And and the whole idea there was whether they live or die. You know,

Andrew, the LSB gives an interesting take on that. And I think it's I think it's I think it's well said.

It says she gives birth prematurely. Correct. I'd like I'd like the LSB here because the

Legacy Standard Bible because of that, because it makes it clear that the child didn't die.

You see, the girl said a miscarriage. And Charlie did call her out on that because she then says, you know, she was then saying the opposite.

He was like, well, you said miscarriage. But she wants to read into this that the child died.

But let's just say let's but even if the child died, it's still not an abortion.

I mean, well, you know, it would be it would be murder then and it would be handled differently. Exactly. It would be murder.

It wouldn't be. It would be murder for sure. Because it says if we look at this thing with what we had been seeing, yet if no injury, well, where do we see that before?

Well, we saw that with the two guys that struggle. Anything right in the context, we saw with the master and the slave, right?

That that's the context. The injury is seen in three different examples.

So I think that if we look at this, staying with the context, Pastor Dom, we have we have this case where we have the two people are struggling.

The woman gets in the middle or, you know, she she gets knocked down somehow.

She's with child. And because she's she's knocked down, she gives birth early.

Prematurely. Prematurely. And yet there's no injury. It says he shall surely he shall surely be fined as the husband's the woman's husband set for him.

And he shall pay what the judge decides. Right. Exactly. So in this case, there's there's no injury, which we saw in the others.

Now, we you know, we looked at that in the case of someone who's two freemen fighting.

You got to pay for their time that they're out of work. You got to pay for the health care. But for the master, he already had to take care of those two things.

So that was already kind of covered. And so here you have the case where now the husband, if there's no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband will set for him and he shall pay as the judge decides.

So in other words, in a case where a woman is struck, this is this is crazy in our day and age.

Someone strikes a wife in the other cases where someone is struck, but they recover.

There's no injury. There wasn't a punishment. But here, this is something our our our our culture misses.

The Bible has a high view for women in the case where the woman is struck and there's no injury, unlike the other two times.

In this case, the husband gives a punishment. There is a punishment if there's no injury.

The husband says, this is what you're going to give me. And a judge has to agree. So let me ask you this,

Andrew. So this is a good point you're bringing up. This is dealing with if she gives birth prematurely and there's no injury.

In context, suppose the child would have died. Well, that's verse 23.

It's there it is. So in words, then it's eye for eye, tooth for tooth.

Right. Yeah. So, I mean, you can see by reading by reading this contextually, it's telling you if the child don't die, then then you see what has to be done.

There's no injury and there shall be a fine as the judge and the husband deems. But in reading in the context of the child does die, then it's hand for hand, foot for foot, tooth for tooth.

Then there would be a death penalty. Yeah. And most people know the eye for eye, tooth for tooth reference, but they often skip the where it started in verse 23 with life for life.

Right. So the contrast here, as you see, if you've been tracking with us through these episodes, you've probably already picked up before we got there because you already saw that this whole chapter is talking about the difference in handling of someone who dies versus someone who is injured and recovers.

Yeah. And again, it goes back to the exegesis of the Bible. You already know the context.

It's already telling you that if the child dies or if somebody dies, it's going to be life for life.

This is dealing with the other issue. If the child don't die, then there should be some type of restitution and things of that nature.

I mean, it's just the context is important. Yeah. And the reason I think it really is helpful is as we saw in the other examples, there wasn't a punishment for someone who recovers.

But in this case, when you strike a woman and there is no injury.

Right. She gives birth premature, but there's no injury. There is a punishment.

And this is part of, I think, because the Bible has a high view of how we are to treat women.

We don't do this in our culture today, Pastor Dom, do we? Not at all. Yeah. It used to be in our day when we were kids,

Moses was still running around and. Speak for yourself, buddy.

Well, you just look like you're running around in Moses's day. I actually was, I guess so.

But the thing that we see is the fact that we used to have this view that a man should never hurt a woman.

Yes. And that really has been different nowadays.

I mean, I just watched a video I showed my wife of some guy just on the street. A woman is just walking.

She's not even paying attention. And the guy just as he walks past her, he puts his hands together, puts his elbow and just smacks her in the face.

And he kept walking. He just wanted to hit her because she was there. You have the guy who stabbed the

Ukrainian woman on the train. All of those things.

You look at this, if you strike the woman, even if there's no injury, there is a penalty.

Unlike the other cases. They're still fine. They're still fine. It's a great point. And Jesus, our

Lord and Savior, had a very high view of women who were the first responders in the resurrection.

In those days, women couldn't even testify in a court of law. Here they are testifying to the resurrection.

That's an excellent point, Pastor Dom. When you say they couldn't, you know, in that culture at that time, they didn't have the same view of women as the

Bible had. And that's one of the things where people try to say, oh, the Bible puts down women. Does the Bible put down women,

Pastor Dom? The Bible puts up women. I mean, look at the first responders. You know, you think about the first responders to the resurrection were women.

And when a woman couldn't even testify in a court of law, their word would have to be backed up by men.

Here Jesus uses women as the first responders, the first witnesses to the resurrection. And obviously, look at even the apostles.

When the women went and tell them, hey, we've seen Jesus alive, they had to go check it out because they just, you know, this is the way that that was that culture.

So Jesus had a very high view of women. Yeah. Well, what would he tell the apostle

John? He says that he told him that that's your mother and that's your son.

So you're going to take care of your mother. Yeah. So, yes, I agree.

So as we look at this, I mean, let's let's go back to what Charlie Kirk, how he responded to this, because we have his response and because I think this would be helpful before we continue on with the rest of the text here.

That is not what this law says. But let me just ask, are you a Christian? Yes. OK, then continue.

So no, I just want to stop there really quickly, Pastor Dom. Notice what he said. Are you a

Christian? Right. She says yes. He says continue. Why? Because she's bringing up the

Bible. This is actually a good thing he did, because what he's saying is,

OK, you're you're a Christian. Then then because when when I'm on the streets evangelizing,

Pastor Dom, and someone, you know, challenges me and they want to challenge me with the Bible, but they're not a

Christian. They're not taking the Bible serious. You know, Andrew, when I listen, when I again,

I listened to it this morning because I wanted to be fresh with it. And I think I think if I'm not mistaken,

Charlie references something in the New Testament, which he has no idea where it is.

Yeah. So I that's kind of when she said, I want to be careful. I'm not questioning

Christianity, but I think Charlie referenced the Gospel of John or something in the New Testament.

And she says, no, I've never read that before. Am I right on that? Yeah, I didn't

I didn't keep that clip in here. But yes. Yeah. And so I was wondering, you know, because it was something that if you were a

Christian, you might have known who I think it was from the Gospel of John. And I'm not saying we have to go back and look at that. But that was a little puzzling to me when she said she was a

Christian and Charlie was quoting the New Testament. And she says, well, I never heard of that before. So that was a little troubling.

Yeah, it made it did make me wonder if she was cherry picking things and she wasn't really a

Christian. But but here's but I like what Charlie said next, because he wanted to double down. He wanted to confirm.

She says she's a Christian. Lots of people say they're Christian, right, Pastor Dom? Yeah. So here's here.

Listen to how he wants her to answer whether she's a Christian. So do you believe in the inerrant word of God?

Yes. OK, good. Yes. So right. He wants to do you believe in the word of God, the inerrant word of God?

Why? Because that's what he's now going to appeal to. She's appealing to the Bible, saying we've already seen why the Bible doesn't didn't teach what she claimed it did, because we looked at the context.

And Pastor Dom's right. When you're out there and you're being challenged on the street, you don't think of everything.

I mean, you know, he's trying to argue from a science perspective. I would have just read the context. That's what

I do when someone brings up the Bible, because usually just reading the context gives an answer.

But I think he was good here making her commit to saying, yes, she believes in the word of God because now he can use the word of God against her.

Yes. All right. Let's listen. So it says that as a woman's husband shall impose on him and he shall pay as the judges determine.

So the judge is determined and it's talking about the husband. So therefore, it's talking about a person, not God himself, not his judgment.

So it's saying if someone has an abortion, we have the right to choose what to do to them. Right. Can you say it was a miscarriage, not an abortion?

You see how he caught that? He's good that way. It says when man strive together and hit a pregnant woman.

So that's causing her to lose the baby. That's an outside cause. Okay, Pastor Dom, did she lose the baby from when we looked at the context?

The baby did not get lost. No, no. It was just born early. Yeah. Prematurely or premature.

Yeah. Outside cause. Therefore, it could mean abortion because some people find that aggressive abortion is through violence.

Such as hitting because not everyone has access to medical. Was it the intent for them to kill the baby?

It's unclarified. So that I cannot tell you. However, what I will say is that it says that it's the judges determined.

The husband determines. So God's not making the choice for us what to do with the person who does that to someone's child does that to their own child.

But it does say that if the woman is harmed her herself, not the child, then they are liable by God, their life for her life, their foot for her foot.

So what I'm saying is if somebody needs an abortion for health care, let's say a woman's baby is not going to make it.

And if the baby stays in her womb, she will die and they refuse her an abortion.

They refuse her that health care and she dies. Should the doctor be liable under God? So here's what she was trying to get to.

It is that last bit she's trying to say, we'll see if if you refuse the woman health care in such a way that the baby dies.

Then, you know, there's got to be a responsibility here. Now, first off, she said that she didn't know if the intent was to kill the child, which

Charlie had asked. But if we read this again, and if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, it doesn't seem to be the intent.

They strike the woman. But who are they struggling? The two men are struggling. Yes. So her argument, first off, when we look at it, she's saying it's it's an abortion, but there's nowhere in the context that's an abortion.

You think the two men are fighting over the woman? No, I I kind of picture and you could see you could probably picture this, right?

If if if you and I are getting into a fight, right, our wives are going to come there and try to hey, hey, hey, they're going to get in the middle.

Because why? Because we're not going to strike a woman. Exactly.

Right. So that's why it says that's why, in other words, the the striking of a woman would probably be something that just happened.

Maybe the woman's trying to break up the fight or something like that or whatever. That's that's how

I I can picture this very simply being being explained. And so her argument is that it starts off with two men beefing.

Correct. It's not like a man hitting a woman or it's and I can see like if, you know, two men are beefing, the wife is trying to, you know, stop a husband or yeah, that's and again, context is important.

Yeah. And this is how I see to answer this is to walk through, you know, what the text actually says.

And when we see that, we've seen her argument has fallen apart in many ways. One, because this is dealing nothing with abortion.

Nothing. And if you're going to argue for abortion, well, you're in verse twenty three. But if there's any injury and this doesn't even say death, if there's any injury to who to the woman, to the child or both, it doesn't say.

Right. And but it does say if it's the further injury, if it goes all the way to death, it's life for life.

Correct. So her argument would be that, oh, well, the judge, the judge is going to decide what how much has to be paid.

But that's in a person where there's no injury. But if there is an injury, the you have this phrase, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Burn for burn, bruise for bruise, wound for wound. I think what you have here is you have a case where this is the extent of the law.

It doesn't mean that there can't be mercy, but it means you can't go beyond.

So if I steal money from Dom, I take 100 bucks from him.

I don't you know, he doesn't say, hey, now you got to give me two thousand, right?

Unless I held it for a long time and there's interest, right? You could do reasonable interest. But the idea is if if I got into it, we got

Pastor Dom and I get into an argument, we get into a struggle and I knock his tooth out. He doesn't get to kill me over that.

He could take my truth. He takes my tooth. Yeah, well, well, I don't need to take your truth.

Just get me another one. But the idea is you can't go beyond.

You can't take my life because I took your tooth. Right. It's it's the limit.

It's kind of the upper limit of the punishment. It it doesn't mean there has to be that punishment.

And it goes what you said before about reparations a little bit. When people are going beyond, you know, what what is what is allowed, you know what

I'm saying? I mean, it's like, in other words, if if if my grandfather was was harmed by somebody or something,

I can't turn around and say, well, give it to me because that, you know, that would go beyond the scope of, you know what

I'm saying, Andrew? So it's an excellent point. Yeah, no, that's an excellent point because of the fact that this is the argument

I make when people talk to me about reparations. I ask, why would I have to pay you if you're if someone's black?

Why do I have to pay you reparations? I I never owned a slave. My family didn't own slaves.

And and the person I'm talking to wasn't a slave. Right there, their families might have been, but, you know, my my family came over to this country and they struggled and made a living.

And I benefited from that. And for those that are here, they benefited from it. Not I mean, not that we would want that to be the case that they had that struggle, but they still benefited from it.

And I think that one of the things instead of trying to say, oh, well, you know, I should try to get money from others.

We should look at this and say, as you said, you can't go beyond.

You can't punish more. Like if if I owned a slave, then, yes, maybe there's reparations.

But if I never owned a slave, I shouldn't have to pay the reparations. Yeah, this is good.

This is good. It's a good chapter, man. I'll tell you. Yeah. So I think this is a good place we could we could stop pick up for the next time, because we're going to pick up again with some of the eye for eye type of it's going to give us some more detail that'll come our way in the next episode.

And if you have any questions, Andrew, you just give me your email. So if they have any questions and I'll give them mine just in case.

Yeah. If you have any if you have any, you know, things you want to argue, just Pastor Dominic.

Now, if I listen, you can email me and I'll just I'll just forward them.

If you if you say, hey, man, I learned a lot from this. Then you can email me.

Just reach out at Andrew at rap report dot org.

You can get ahold of me there. But until until next episode, Pastor Dom, that's a wrap.