Are Young Men Returning to Church?

Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast, where we are forging a bold Christian vision for America. I'm your host, John Harris, and we have a subject today that will be of interest to all of you because we are going to talk about whether or not the United States of America is in the midst of a religious revival or a Christian awakening, especially regarding young men, millennials and Gen Z men.

You see all the headlines. You've heard the testimonies. You are likely, if you listen to this podcast within a group of Christians, excited about the possibility of a religious commitment increase in the United States.

And I don't want to temper that in ways that make you not excited. I do want you to understand what is actually going on, though. And I have really tried to understand this for the last two or three years because there is something happening.

I just don't know that it's being diagnosed in the right way. So I'm going to give you my two cents on it. But I also want to get into the data. I want to show you what's driving this narrative, why people are saying this.

And it's not just Christians that are saying this. I was at a Q &A at Princeton Seminary last December. And at that particular Q &A, which was mostly attended by liberals, I was asked a few different times in a few different ways about the young people coming back to the church.

And I talked about it because there is a sense in which that's happening. But I don't know that it is understood well, what that represents and to what extent it is happening. And that's what we're going to dive into.

The liberals that don't like Christian, quote, unquote, fundamentalism, or in their mind, they think of that as some kind of a radical let's bomb abortion clinics kind of sect. In our minds, we're thinking of people who actually believe what the Bible says, not people who bomb abortion clinics, obviously, but just people who believe the Bible conveys truth and we should obey that truth.

We don't think it's all figurative and stories, right, which is the Christianity liberals are comfortable with. So Christians who are conservative in their interpretation of the scripture. They look at the trends, the vibes, the shifts that are happening right now with a lot of positivity, liberals look at it as if the gates of hell are actually opening up and we have the the jackboots of some kind of religious cult upon our necks right around the corner.

And if if Trump passes the mantle to J .D. Vance, it's over. I mean, there's a lot of hysteria. And I think on the liberal side, the hysteria drives this narrative. And on the more conservative side, the hope of revival and restoration drives this narrative.

And they kind of play off each other a little bit. But I don't know that either one is completely correct in understanding what's actually taking place right in front of us. So with that said, I did write a substack on this.

If you like to read and you rather read instead of listen, then you can do that. But I'm also going to add in some of my own observations beyond what I just wrote here. So I highlight a few of the headlines.

Millennials and Gen Z are flocking to Jesus and the church, not just at Easter. Gen Z is returning to Christianity. Data proves it. In fact, this one was USA Today. So, yeah, these are mainstream news publications.

Make Christianity cool again. Why Gen Z is flocking to church. That is independent UK. So that's a UK source. And what's the big deal? Why are people saying this? Let me give you a few data points, OK?

So a Barna poll from last September showed that Gen Z and millennials often labeled as disinterested in the faith show the highest level of regular attendance. On average, all churchgoers attend roughly two out of five weekends.

But zoomers attend almost two out of every four weekends per month. This is a good sign, but it is still a lower average attendance rate than the boomers of 26 years ago. So here's a little chart here.

It just shows millennials and Gen Z, and it shows their church attendance going up since 2020. That was a low point for very obvious reasons. Now, let me just put this in perspective for a moment. This particular poll from Barna is only limited to churchgoers.

So people who already attend church regularly. So if you're already a churchgoing person in the United States and you are in the millennial or Gen Z category, you are a little bit more likely to go to church more often than someone who is a churchgoer, but is in an older age bracket than you.

That's what this data is pointing out. This is not about Gen Z more broadly. This is not about millennials more broadly. It is about specifically those who are already attending church. And to put it in even more perspective, and again, I think this is a good trend, but I think we got to compare apples with apples a little bit here.

The boomers of the 2000s, early 2000s, were attending more often than the Gen Zers are now. And comparing apples with apples, church attenders. So what does that mean? It means that obviously we have a lot more work to do.

It's a good trend, but that trend is going to have to continue. We're going to have to build on it. It's going to have to advance if we're going to recapture lost ground. And that's within those who call themselves presumably Christians who are regular church attenders.

So I'm not trying to do this to discourage you, but I do want to point out the sample here and what the sample looks like. This could be when looking at a few years, this could be a trend. It could be a shift in the popularity of Christianity among those who already like Christianity.

It could mean, and this is my hope and I hope it means this, that there is a deepening of faith in those who are raised in cultural Christian settings where they're attending church, but they actually really want to know God now.

So they're going to go to church more. There's a segment, I believe this is true, there is a segment, especially of Gen Z and millennial men who realized after 2020 real evil's out there. I can't be casual with this stuff.

I can't just have Jesus in the back seat. I need to really know Jesus for guidance because I don't know what to do. They had their George Bailey on the bridge prayer moment and they are coming back to church and committing themselves.

Now, I don't know how big of a group that is, but it's enough, I think, to bring the averages in those who already attend church up for those particular brackets. So that's what we're looking at. Now, a lot of people see this kind of a headline.

Gen Z and millennials often label is interested in faith. So the highest levels of regular attendance and they think, oh, it's talking about all Gen Z's and millennials. It's not. It's talking about those who already go to church.

So don't read into this more than there. According to Pew Research last December, Zoomers as a whole are just as likely to attend services as millennials, both of whom are less likely to attend than older generations.

So Pew Research does a poll and they're not just looking at those who attend church. They're looking at the generations as a whole. So their sample size is let's look at the people in these brackets who are in these age brackets, these age demographics.

And they're saying, hold on. As a whole, for their sample size, this that that headline could about regular churchgoers could not apply to the population, the greater population. More significantly, Zoomers are less likely than any old demographic age demographic to identify with the religion, pray daily or say that religion is important in their lives.

So here's Pew Research's conclusion. Some media reports have suggested there may be a religious revival taking place. Some young adults, especially young men in the US. But our recent polls, along with other high quality surveys we have analyzed, show no clear evidence that this kind of nationwide religious resurgence is underway.

That's their conclusion. So they're saying not so fast, Barna. Now, I want to stop and just say one thing. I don't know of any polls that control for other demographic factors. You may be curious to know what is happening with certain racial groups.

And even some of this polling itself doesn't give you information on whether we're talking about males or females. It's just age brackets. So you have to look at other things if you want to figure out in greater detail what's happening on the ground.

These are more big picture. But big picture is the greater population of Gen Z is actually sliding towards secularity. Now, they may not be sliding as fast as expected. There's a slowdown in it. And Gen Z women are going faster than Gen Z men.

And there's somewhat of a haltedness to it. But it's still bad is what I'm trying to say. It still doesn't point to mass religious revival, at least not yet. We hope that that happens, but we're not seeing that in the data.

So here's some charts from Pew Research, and it shows little change in the religious composition of the U .S. since 2020. So if you think 2020 was this great high watermark of Christianity, then maybe you're happy.

With that.

There really doesn't seem to be much happening, which even a holding pattern might be a good thing, but it's not religious revival stuff, at least not yet. In the U .S., young adults are less religious than older adults.

Now, this chart will kind of wreck you if you're really invested in the young people are all Christian conservatives. You have a bunch of questions asked here about praying daily, saying religion is very important in their lives, attend religious services at least monthly, and identify with the religion.

And sure enough, for the 18 to 30 bracket, they are least likely to identify with religion, least likely to pray daily, and least likely to say religion is very important in their lives. And it's not even close, really.

I mean, look at the boomers and those older than them, you know, 58, 59 pray daily. It's 32 for the 18 to 30 rolls, right? For older Americans, 83 identify with the religion, 57 for younger ones.

For older Americans, say religion is important, 55%, younger ones, 33%. Now, when it comes to attending a religious service, the Gen Zers are a little bit more likely, according to this poll, than millennials.

It's actually pretty much, it's a holding pattern, right? So like older millennials, 31 of them attend monthly, younger millennials, 29%, Zoomers, 31%. So in some of these Zoomers, you know, who knows, they might still be connected in some ways, the younger ones to their parents.

So, you know, this is kind of, for those 50 and younger, that's the one area you can say there's somewhat of a holding pattern, I suppose. But the older generations are still more likely to attend more often as a whole.

Okay, Zoomer males, let's talk about this. There is a stereotype online, especially that the females are all a bunch of man-hating feminists in Gen Z. And the males are a bunch of trad bros who want to get married, but they've been denied.

And so they're more accommodating to religion. I think there is a reason that stereotype exists. But I want to talk about the actual numbers. What data do we have to talk about this? Not just examples people give and stories they share, which I think there's a place for that.

But what hard data do we actually have? And I think the excitement over Gen Z males is in the reformed evangelical circles, driven by a patriarchal understanding that men and then fathers, when they become fathers, are going to lead the family.

So if the man is a Christian, the family is a Christian. This is a super spreader. And Vodibakam has a quote where he says, as goes the family, so goes the world. As goes the father, so goes the family.

That's true. If you have a properly functioning family, that's true. So I don't want to diminish any of that, but I do want to look at the numbers. What do we actually have? And so one of the great ways to figure this out is by looking at not just Bible sales, which are up, thank God for that, but also Bible reading, Bible exposure.

So we have Barna and we have the American Bible Society both putting out data points on this. Barna is looking at exposure to the Bible, which could even include YouTube videos and stuff. It's more broad.

And they're saying that, hey, it looks like millennial and Gen Z males are really into the Bible. So 54 of Gen Z males, 57 of millennial males, according to Barna, as a percentage of U .S. adults are reading the Bible weekly.

That reading obviously is broader than just the text, whereas Gen X is 43%, Boomer males is the lowest at 28%. And it's just the trend is growing in millennial and Gen Z males. Now, I want to point out something here.

The trend is also growing among Gen Z females and millennial females. In fact, it's quite the jump. In 2025, you see that the previous, I think it's maybe this is the 2024. The previous year is 27 of Gen Z females, according to Barna, are reading the Bible.

Weekly.

And then it jumps to 46 in 2025. So it's showing a massive jump in females, not quite as high. It's not 54%, but it's showing a drastic jump in females also reading the Bible. So the trends are with Gen Z males and females and the Boomers and the Gen Xers, again, reading the Bible less.

Well, the American Bible Society has a different way of looking at this. And I think theirs is probably more accurate, even though it's muted. And the reason is, is because the way they do their data collection, the American Bible Society does a probability based data collection, whereas the Barna research group does a quota based metric.

It's the difference between if you were, let's say in school and you're choosing members to compete in a sports competition. And oftentimes it's by size or age or some other factor, people with blue shirts, whatever.

If you're working for Barna, this is just an oversimplification, but hopefully it helps understand. Barna is going to look at certain demographics. I need three eighth graders because that corresponds with the percentage of the greater school population that are in eighth grade to represent their class in my narrow sample size.

So they're going to choose those people off the top. And Barna is criticized by some for leaning more pro-Christian, more pro-Bible, but they get results that are more encouraging to Christians sometimes because of the way they do it.

So if you're doing a survey on this particular topic and you're trying to attract people to answer questions in a survey and you're doing it based on, I need this particular sample size from this particular demographic.

Hey, you want to come do this poll, then it's going to attract people who are already somewhat accommodating. That's the theory, at least. Whereas the American Bible Society just does a probability based.

We're just going to pull everyone and then see what data we have and then do the math on who fits into what group and how does this reflect the general population, the trends within that population. And whether or not you like the way Barna does their polling, the data results are very different.

So the American Bible Society's polling shows that Gen Z adults in 2024, 2025, as opposed so they're comparing 2024 with 2025, Gen Z adults overall, 36 reading the Bible. If you look at Gen Z males, you're looking at about this, like, I think that's if I can, let's see if I can zoom this in.

All right, now I can see it better. 35%. If you're looking at Gen Z females, 38%. So they actually show that females are reading more than males in Gen Z. Now it's about the same. I mean, this is very close.

Male millennials, 40%, females, 38%. Now they are showing a jump. They are showing a jump, especially in millennials, not as much with Gen Z, but especially with millennials. There's a jump from 2024 to 2025 with those reading the Bible.

Now, fast forward to Gen X boomers. They are reading the Bible at overall higher levels, especially female boomers, but male boomers as well. They are reading the Bible at higher levels. You got, you know, 49 of female boomers.

In fact, with females, with both Gen Z and female boomers, there is a slight decrease in Bible reading over the past year. So it's not very much. It's the differences between 2, 3, 4%, but this gives you a, I think, probably a more accurate picture.

I tend to think the American Bible Society polling is better, and it reflects, I think, what we're seeing overall in society more. Now, the most accessible institutional metric to test Christian commitment.

This is something I thought about among young men in long-term future, the long-term future of Christianity in the United States, maybe to check whether or not new pastors are emerging to fill the gap boomers are leaving as they exit the ministry.

So unfortunately, as of now, this picture does not reflect a growing Christian movement. The most common request I receive from churches is whether or not I know of a potential pastor.

For them.

So Pew Research, all major Christian groups, with the exception of non-denominational Protestants, are either flatlined or diminishing. So in other words, when we look at institutions, when we look at actual denominations on the ground, we're seeing broad diminishment.

And this goes for Catholics. This goes for Eastern Orthodox. This goes for, I mean, despite articles about there's people are being attracted to these things, there could be some reshuffling of the debt going on in a way, but it's overall, the trends over the last 10 years, all diminishing.

Lifeway Research recently reported that more Protestant churches are closing than opening. And the Association of Theological Schools, and this is all theology schools, okay, in Christendom. So this would not just be Protestant.

They have reported diminishing MDiv graduates since 2020. Now I specifically singled out MDiv because they actually last year had a spike. They had more enrollment in these seminaries. I thought, well, that's interesting because I keep hearing about these church shortages.

And then I looked into the granular detail and sure enough, MDivs are going down. So you have people going back to school, getting their DMins, certificates, things like this. But the MDiv, which is sort of your basic pastoral leadership degree, that's going down.

And it continues to go down. Now, education's expensive. There could be other factors that are motivating this kind of thing. But again, it's not just isolated. The MDiv's going down while these other degrees are going up or flatline.

So what's going on there? Why is pastoral leadership specifically not as favored in these universities, in these Christian seminaries and universities? Last October, Reform Theological Seminary published an article revealing a troubling trend for NARPAC churches.

10 of the Orthodox Presbyterian churches, roughly 300 congregations, are seeking pastors. 25 congregations in the United Reformed churches have vacant pulpits. The Evangelical Presbyterian Church, a denomination of 600 years, has learned that half of its ministers plan to retire in the next five years.

Presbyterian Church in America has estimated a need for 220 new ministers annually to meet existing needs and reach goals for church planning, foreign missions, and expansion. So this is something that they're at least admitting, we got a problem.

I have heard this from other evangelical seminaries and churches and networks in the last year that they're not getting MDiv's. The people who do come and want MDiv's are not, they're usually committed to a church already.

So they don't really have people to send to churches that are asking. I see this on the ground very much so that there are a lot of churches with vacancies, churches that will contact me that we've been looking for a pastor for a year, two years, three years, can't find a pastor.

There is a pastor shortage. And I think if there really is a revival going on, typically in the past in the Anglo-American world, when there's a revival, it means an increase in missionaries and pastors.

We're going to have to see that spike. And it may not be MDiv's that are the metric for that, right? That's been the metric. So it's worthwhile to look at it. It may be people that are homegrown, that are taking the reins, studying the Bible for themselves, and they become the pastor, but the pastor shortage would have to go away.

And younger guys are going to have to be rising up. I would expect millennials to be taking the reins in many of these churches, but that's not really happening yet. So what does that mean? And that is a metric unique to men, right?

This isn't women in conservative circles. It's not women. It's men that would be filling those roles. So as religious institutions diminish, there is a popularity still, though, associated with the Christian brand.

So what's that about? Barnes polling showed an increase, especially among millennials and Zoomer males willing to say they made a personal commitment to follow Jesus. So is it all vibes and feelings and trends that are causing people to shift towards a favorable view of Christianity, especially on the right politically?

And I think the answer to this is actually pretty common sense. It's straightforward. And if you've lived through the last 10 years of life in the United States, it's no mystery. The institutions that attacked you, that you felt threatened by, that lied to you, that said things like a mask is going to protect you from this virus and the vaccine is going to protect you from this virus and social distancing and you got to not go out and hide in a bunker somewhere.

But by the way, you should go out to protest in these peaceful protests. That's a good moral thing to do, right? All of that that happened in 2020, those people, those are the experts, those more liberal, secular elites among us.

They seemed also, guess what?

Not like the church. At a root fundamental level, that's their main competitor. It's these Christians in the Bible Belt. It's this institution that has stood the test of time that is so archaic and outdated.

We got to get rid of it. And I think it makes total sense why someone growing up in this environment would think they're wrong. They don't have any moral authority. Maybe they're enemies. Maybe the people they target and say are the bad guys.

Maybe they actually have moral authority. And that would basically just take a list of the enemies that liberals have. That would drive a favorable view of all those different categories, including Nazis, by.

The way.

It's no mystery to me why people think that Nazis might be good if they haven't done a lot of research and if they've been under the impression for so long that Nazis constitute one of the chief enemies of liberalism.

Well, Christians have an even more significant place as a villain category among liberals in the United States. And so people are going to think, ah, maybe those Christians are onto something. They're also, I think, looking for rootedness.

There's instability. There's lack of moral foundation. People want a place of belonging when they come from unstable households. So where are they going to find that? Where are they going to have a place that tells them who they are, gives them meaning, and also significance in a broader moral scheme?

That they're not just matter in motion here today, gone tomorrow, existing for pleasure. They're actually here for a purpose. And I think church offers that. And so it's no mystery why young people living in the late stage of empire collapse nihilism are going to be attracted to something that gives them some tangible meaning.

However, does that mean that there's a revival underway or about to happen? Does that mean this interest is generated by a hatred for sin, love for Christ, that is going to spill over into true discipleship and all the blessings that come with living as a Christian in various capacities within society, including as magistrates?

And the answer to that, I think, is maybe, but possibly no. We don't know that that is going to be the end point of this. You also have competitors from false churches that claim to offer the benefits of Christianity without the root truths of Christianity, denying the role of Jesus, denying the importance of recognizing sin and repenting, denying the place that the Bible has and how authoritative.

It is there.

There's going to be, and there already is, many spiritual directions someone can go and gain in their mind some of these blessings, these byproducts, these things associated with Christianity and religion without having to give up sin.

That's the temptation in all of this. And I think we need to be realistic about that. There's also a pagan right out there willing to offer these things in a more bulk kind of setting that the identity of a certain class of people are going to offer you the significance you seek in religion.

They're going to be elevated to that status. The ancient ways of these pagan religions in various European contexts are going to offer this rootedness, this forgotten past that will hopefully make you feel like you've.

Come home.

You also have, like I said, false churches, churches that aren't going to confront the sins of our time, but are going to soft pedal those things and emphasize and reinforce grievance and whatever felt needs exist.

They will focus on them to the detriment of the offensive truths that Christianity offers that must be contended with before arriving at the blessings. These are real dynamics. Now, I waited to tell you this.

It's actually previous in the article, but I waited to tell you this so I could tell you as you're looking at this chart, this is a chart from Barna. Again, not my favorite polling agency and all of this, but I think they pick up on a real trend, even though it may be exaggerated that young people are more willing to say, I have made a personal commitment to follow Jesus.

That is still important in my life today. 67 of males and 61 of females. I want you to notice the first thing is females are also increasing in this poll. So the whole idea that females are just going the other direction, well, not according to.

This poll.

So if you use Barna's research when it comes to males, but you ignore what they're saying about females, you're not being honest. You got to take them both. Now, millennials show the most enthusiasm, 71 of males, 64 of females saying they've made a personal commitment to follow Jesus.

Gen X and boomers cooler. Gen X 66, 64 boomer, 66, 62 male, female. So this is what the Barna research group thinks is happening. Now, this is what I waited to tell you. I'm going to tell you now, scroll back up here.

Barna noted an important trend when they were doing their state of religion research in America, and they were saying, look at this enthusiasm. I mean, it's similar numbers here with the enthusiasm of Gen Z and millennial males when it comes to Bible reading and females, but they noticed something and they said, quote in 2000, so 2000 before Gen Z was around 43 strongly agreed that the Bible is totally accurate in its principles that it teaches.

Okay.

40, keep that number in your mind. That number fell below 40 in recent years, but now sits at 36%. Even among self-identified Christians, only 44 strongly affirmed the Bible's accuracy. What's Barna telling you?

The amount of people in the United States in 2000 who believed in the Bible's accuracy is comparable to the amount of people within the church now who believe in the Bible's.

Accuracy.

Self-identified Christians. So they might be in church, they might not, but they are in the Christian fold according to their own thoughts about themselves. Now that is staggering. So even as you're looking at this research and you're saying, look at the spike in Bible reading, look at the spike in people willing to say, Hey, I follow Jesus.

There is a drop, a significant drop in, well, I don't really believe that stuff. What do you make of that? Now, this is a broad statement about population as a whole, not a good statement. And I think those who are trying to come up with a rescuing device here to say, look, it's not the Zoomers.

The Zoomers are in a revival. They're going to try to place all of that blame on, it's got to be the Boomers and the Gen Xers. They've just got to be abandoning scripture at such high numbers that when you average it all out, the Zoomers and the millennials are somehow now the bulwark of Christianity in the United States.

But again, previous data that we looked at from Pew Research on just the general population and their views of religion and church attendance don't bear this out. So what's actually going on here? How do we account for there is a vibe shift?

There is an enthusiasm. At the same time, we don't seem to have the broad recognition that this is capital T true. And we don't seem to be filling up the pulpits. Churches are needing to find pastors and they're not finding them.

The MDiv is going down even as seminary enrollments go up. In fact, I don't know if there's any study on this. I just know from being around the block on this, this is likely very true. The institutions that were mostly focused on training pastors, so not academia, but actual pastors, not counselors, actual pastors.

I'm talking about Bible schools primarily that aimed at sending people out on the mission field and in the pulpits. Those brick and mortar institutions have been shutting down for the last five, 10 years in high numbers.

And the enrollment spikes at places like Liberty University and other big brick and mortar, gigantic Christian institutions. A lot of that is the result of these other places being shut down. And this gets complicated, but just having worked at Liberty, attended Liberty, having attended masters and Southeastern, and just having a lot of connections to Christian institutions.

My perception of all this is that a lot of parents will send their kids to Liberty University because they want their kids to stay out of trouble. They're not necessarily on a ministry track. Liberty's a university.

They have a seminary, which is probably, compared to some of their other schools, one of the smaller ones, to be quite honest with you, not insignificant. And it's just not, people think that Liberty is this really, really Christian place.

It is in a pop Christian sense. They have Christian bylaws. They have a lot of Christian derived rules, and there's a culture of Christianity there. But Liberty University is not a seminary. It's not a Bible school per se.

You'll get a dose of Bible, but it's a safe environment for a lot of parents to send their.

Kids.

And there are some very good schools there. I love the history department there. I think the music program's phenomenal. I think I've heard great things about nursing. I mean, there's some really good schools at Liberty, and there's also some schools that are not quite as good and challenging, which I won't talk about.

But I'm very positive about Liberty. I loved my time there. But when you have, I don't know, something like, you know, Piedmont University, for example, shutting down, and there's many examples of this, where does all of that energy go?

It goes to places like Liberty. And so, yeah, enrollment's up at these mega places. But the MDiv program is down. So how do you categorize that? That would be your young men waiting in the wings to take on Christian leadership.

I think some guys might think, well, the boomers aren't handing over the keys. That's what's going on here. I'm telling you, there's openings all over the place, where boomers have already retired or died, and these churches can't find people.

This is a severe problem that I hear about all the time. And I try to help people I know who are looking for ministry positions connect with a viable.

Choice.

But this is a very difficult thing in our current environment. And I just don't know that that would be a difficult thing, whether MDiv or not, if you had just a lot of young guys who are super motivated towards the Bible and identifying as a Christian and getting involved in Christian institutions and making sure the church survives.

That gap is going to have to be filled. And I am keeping my eye on things to see if maybe there's a delay. And within the next couple of years, we will see that. That would be an encouraging sign. Look for that.

If you start seeing that leadership vacuum filled by people devoted to Christ, filled by the Holy Spirit, who are seeking the education because they love the church, which is really what it comes down to faith.

I love the church. I love Christian ministry. This is what this world needs. I'm led by the spirit to use my gifts because now I'm a child of God. That is going to be the encouraging next step. That's going to be evidence that there's a real revival, especially among men, because men fill those positions in these conservative circles.

So I'm just going to close with a few thoughts for you on this. I do hope and pray that a revival will take place. I just see little reason to believe we are in the midst of one, despite some of these positive trends.

By definition, an authentic revival is prompted by a move of the Holy Spirit in which he produces true conversions that in turn generate disciples and strengthen the church while inspiring Christian influence throughout society.

And this is what past revivals did look like. I wrote about a revival in my book, Against the Waves, and one of the things I focus on are these high profile conversions. Now, some of them have since me writing about them, like Kat Von D, I think was one I focused.

On.

And at this point, I'm not even sure where she's at. I think she might have done Eastern Orthodox. She was, I think, Baptist at the time, independent. And people are on these arcs, on these journeys. And the ground is shifting very quickly.

And so I am positive that we are seeing conversions. I just don't know exactly where everyone's going to end up. It's sort of like 2020 was the glass that had all the sediment at the bottom, and it got shaken.

And the sediment is all stratifying as it falls. And there's layers that we have not perceived yet that are still forming. That's what it feels like right now in 2026. And I don't say that as Candace Owens feels.

I mean, that's what my observations are telling me. And one of the things I noted was that some of these high profile conversions are at least positive references to the Christian faith. Even people like Elon Musk and Joe Rogan and Blake Shelton's wife, Gwen Stefani.

And Denzel Washington and Tim Allen be reading the Bible. And even Tucker Carlson. He's more of a political commentator, but he's reading the Bible, right? All these people who are saying positive things about Christianity, I said, there's really not a lot of cache in these liberal, more elite circles for saying, I'm with Jesus or I like Christianity or the Bible's great.

You don't gain much of a benefit from that. And so I am tempted to think, and still I'm tempted to think that much of this is authentic, whether it's conversion or not, it is a willingness to go against class interest, which can reward and benefit you and either do one of two things.