Dead Men Walking Podcast with Josh Stacey: Hebrews 6 and the Practical Christian Life

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00:11

Oh we're back! Very nice! What's up? So nice! What up y 'all?

00:18

Oh what's up Josh? How's it going guys? Hey we got Josh here in studio with us tonight. Josh Stacey in the house!

00:25

Watch it! I can't wait, I can't flip back fast enough. There it is, the applause! Okay we don't need that.

00:33

Everyone's so sick of our fake applause I think Jason, what do you think? Hey I don't know man, I think it's a really great part of the show.

00:40

That's top of the show. Oh yeah so if you guys are listening we have Josh Stacey in house tonight. He's the director of His Purpose Ministries, a long time buddy of ours, and we're gonna be talking a little bit of Hebrews, a little bit of Jewish Catechism, a little bit of...

00:58

He told us Paul wrote it. No I'm joking. Yeah that's where we're actually... All the time. We start a fight right away.

01:05

We just got him here to debate who wrote Hebrews. Actually he said Apollos, no. I lean towards Paul, where do you guys lean?

01:14

I think we did a short on this. I would also lean to Paul. It mentions

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Timothy. Timothy's mentioned in the book. And those guys were like best buds, like stepbrother style.

01:27

Yeah they were good. Paul said to Timothy I think, did we just become best friends? Yeah yeah and they went and did karate in the garage.

01:35

Exactly. Oh man so how you been Jason? Awesome. Which Jay is he gonna say?

01:41

Josh? He used to call me Josh when we first started. He couldn't remember my name for some reason.

01:47

We knew each other for 20 years. He was like Josh. I sent you the meme that explained it.

01:53

I sent you the... Did you remember that? It literally... It's okay. I almost called him

01:59

Jason. Yeah see? It's like hey my name's... And it said Jason in the thing too.

02:04

Yeah yeah it did. So hey my name's Jason. I thought you switched it. And Jason goes into his head and it's got like theological terms, doctrines, dates of like creeds right?

02:14

And then it just literally just goes right out. But you can remember all that other stuff but your name... Nope sorry.

02:20

Only knowing you 20 years man. You remember the God stuff. That's important stuff. Indeed. You know I want people to forget me anyway.

02:27

I want them to remember Christ. Oh man. So in your face. Okay. Yeah exactly. So it always gets a little rowdier when we have someone in the studio as well because you can joke around a little bit more.

02:37

And I think Josh you've been here is this two? No three. Three Pete. I'm the second three

02:43

Pete. Second three Pete. There we go. All right let's do it. This is the first time though that I've been here for it.

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Because before I was working you guys would meet up and then I was always on my way home from work and just didn't work out.

02:57

But now here. Look at that. One for three. That's good. Thanks for having me guys. Man if you're hitting one for three in the

03:04

MLB you're winning the triple crown baby. Hey that's 333. We'll take it. I'm down. Just went to a local

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Mud Hens game with the boy. Those are so much fun. They're so fun right here in Toledo, Ohio.

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It's a good little spot. Tickets are cheap. Nice park. You sit close no matter where you sit. They've been doing great this year too.

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They were on a team 11 to 1 the other night. Yeah that's the one I was at. Oh nice. Championship run.

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Very cool. But they are the minor league farm team for the Detroit Tigers. Maybe you've heard of them.

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Maybe you've heard of them. Maybe not. Actually the other day I was reading up a little bit on the 1984

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Tigers. I don't know if you guys remember the Detroit Tigers in 1984. Oh yeah I was three years old. I mean they were the best.

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I mean you're talking Allen Trammell, Lou Whitaker, Darrell Evans, Tom Brookens.

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I mean there's so many. Jack Norris was on that team. Chet Lemon. I could go on and on and on but 1984

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Detroit Tigers. Look them up and remember and watch some of those YouTube videos.

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Okay can you talk about the Bible? When I was little I went to Tiger Stadium and when this guy got up to bat everyone started booing him and I said why is everyone booing him and my dad was like no it was

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Lou Whitaker. Yep yep everybody. Totally remember that.

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Josh is sitting here like I wasn't born in 1984. I don't know what the heck you're talking about. That's great.

04:23

Oh man. He wasn't a twinkle in his daddy's eye. Yeah. So what have you been up to since you've been here last

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Josh? Oh man life is insane. You got to see one of the things

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I've been involved in lately last week. So I actually got on staff at the church that I've attended for about six and a half years and so I get a unique opportunity to be our community engagement specialist and minister.

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So I have a unique job where we get this really cool donated stuff and we get in the hands of local non -profits so that they can bless their community.

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That's awesome. And we just get all sorts of off -the -wall stuff and we get to bless people with it and the expectation is that it goes to those who are needy, those who are poverty stricken, those who are dealing with financial issues and just be able to get them really quality really grade

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A stuff for pennies on the dollar. It's absolutely incredible. Along with that I think the last time

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I was here I bought a house. I'm living in Michigan. Nice. You're welcome. We converted him. You're welcome.

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He's no longer a raised, but I've gotten used to the smell here. So no,

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I'm actually, me and my wife are getting ready to go up to Torch Lake next week. It's going to be super exciting.

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Never been that far up north. So ready to go and experience the Caribbean blue waters of Lake Michigan.

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Very nice. Yeah. I just posted a picture. I didn't post it. I might've sent it to someone of St.

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Joseph's, which is just two hours, basically west of us right on Lake Michigan. And it's gorgeous. It's every bit as gorgeous as some ocean ports that you see.

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But yeah, go up north and enjoy it. I will say for anyone listening too, if you're a ministry, you can get ahold of us and we'll put you in touch with Josh because I was there and I did purchase some items and I already got to bless someone with a, like it was about a $350

06:22

Eddie Bauer winter jacket. Guy was talking to him and he's like, man, it's, it's hard right now.

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I'm, you know, I need a jacket. I need this and that. He was a guy that I see that is sometimes on the corner and I got to bless him with that jacket.

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So it's already paying off. Yeah. And I think it was like five or 10 bucks for like a premium

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Eddie Bauer feather down or loose down jacket. So very cool what you're doing in that ministry, passing on those savings.

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And like you said, it's, it's for ministries with the expectation to bless others. Exactly. So if you're a ministry get ahold of us and I'll, I'll put you in touch with Josh.

06:59

So very cool, man. And even if you're out of state, if you're listening somewhere across the country or even internationally,

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I actually can set you up with some stuff. I've been working even right now to be able to work with some of the organizations that have been doing stuff over in Afghanistan to be able to get them products and be able to get stuff.

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Even if it, even in, do you ship to Uzbekistan? We're the number one podcast now for the last six months in Uzbekistan.

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I have. Isn't that crazy? The reason I've heard of it is by looking it up after seeing you guys post on it.

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I bet there's absolutely a way in the top 10 there, man. I don't know. So everyone listening to Uzbekistan, we hear you.

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We understand what's going on in that part of the world. We're praying for you. We appreciate you listening. Yeah. So very cool.

07:39

So you guys want to get into it? What are we talking about tonight, Josh? Cause Josh did something where he said,

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Hey, I'm coming with, I'm coming with something. And we said, okay. And he just gave us the bullet points. And we said, all right, we're going to do, it's like a tap takeover.

07:52

When you go to a brewery, it's like a Josh takeover, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. I like it, but very conversational still.

07:58

We'll probably interrupt you five or 10 times before you're done. I will at least. That's what I'm expecting. And that's going to be the fun part.

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So, um, what I will really just, this is one of the things that stirs up in me is talking about how do you actually walk out a walk with Jesus?

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And how are we supposed to live this thing out in a real practical way? Cause honestly, living in the

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West, everybody wants to over -spiritualize everything. Everybody wants to make everything weird. There's all sorts of weird stuff out there when really the

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Lord walked a really practical life. He really did real things that really impacted people.

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And so if we are called to be disciples and followers of Jesus, then that means that our lives should be pretty practical in it, that there's easy ways to walk out an active lifestyle that is going to glorify

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God and point people to Jesus. And so really reading through Hebrews, there's a specific verse in Hebrews chapter six, verses one through three, that has always stood out to me, always held a special place in my heart.

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And then as I've begun, you know, uh, studying ancestry with my uncle, who's a twice retired army vet, uh, learning about some of my

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Jewish heritage and some of those things, this scripture really has become alive to me over the past few years.

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And it's, uh, therefore leaving the elementary principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to maturity, not laying again, a foundation of repentance from dead works, faith toward God, of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

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This we will do if God permits. And it's really simple. Like these are what, whoever, uh, we'll, we can joke around and say,

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Paul, what Paul's getting at here is if you want to move on to maturity, these should be some of the building blocks that you have laid on the foundation of Christ himself, because he is the rock.

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He is the foundation. He is the cornerstone. He's what we build everything off of. But just like when we build our own houses, just like when we build businesses, you have to move from that foundation, lay down a floor, build up some walls, put in some trim, paint, roof, all those things.

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And so these six principles are the most practical ways that we can live out active faith as a believer in Jesus.

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And for whoever was writing this, writing this to Messianic Jews, living back in the first century, who are turning in, uh, following after Yeshua, following after the

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Messiah, as they have believed from the scriptures that they had, he's reminding them, like, you guys know this, this was already a practical application for them and for their faith.

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And so just like for us in this day and age, we get to participate in that. Being grafted in the vine, this is truth for us too.

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And so it makes a, people always want to make spiritual maturity and growing in your faith in these weird things when it can be just as practical as this.

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Yeah. I feel like sometimes too, uh, maybe here, and I don't have any, well,

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I mean, I might have scriptural evidence for it, but it feels like when you're reading through this, it's almost like with, with the

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Jewish, uh, with the early Christians, the pendulum was swinging kinda in, in, um, the new churches.

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So it went from, you know, they'd have the arguments over, do you have to be circumcised? Can we sit with other Jews? Those whole thing. But it's almost like it swung too far and it was like, okay, we have all this freedom and grace and all this stuff.

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And he's like, well, hold on. We also, you know, let's not stay too focused on that. Let's let's be balanced and let's be in moderation.

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And, uh, and I think that's a good word for the Western Christian churches. Sometimes we get a little too spiritualized and you go, well, what's wrong with being spiritualized?

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It's like, well, look at, I love miracles. I love being spiritual. I love my, uh, time with God and prayer, which

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I say is a spiritual experience. I get all that. But at the same time, the Lord commands us to walk out some real practical things in life that take work.

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There's a reason why Paul refers to it as running a race or a marathon as he says, a lifelong race, right? It's not compared to,

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Hey, since you guys now have your ticket on the cruise ship and you're going to sit back on the deck and sunbathe, I want to tell you about Christ.

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It's like, oh no, we are running this race. It's hard work. So there's like real world practical things that the

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Lord commands us to do. Some of those are spiritual and sacraments, you know, baptism and communion and things like that.

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Some of those things are principles of God that will just actually seems hard, but will make your life easier because he's created this universe in a certain way.

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Straight up, you know, reap what you sow, work ethic, all those things that we've talked about before on the podcast.

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So yeah, I'm tracking with what you're saying for sure. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think as well too, just in context,

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I mean, you know, you have a good Jewish rabbis that were saying, you know, um, uh,

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I mean, they were, they were saying the same things that Christians were, right. They were, they were being taught the same stuff like resurrection of the dead, repentance of dead works, faith towards God, washings, laying out of hands, eternal judgment.

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The only difference was Christ. Yeah. Right. So, yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, as, as, you know, we read, we read these, uh, these verses,

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I mean, we are definitely seeing a shift, but also remember too, that they were asking them to come back to sacrifice, you know, in Hebrews.

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Right. Um, uh, so, you know, and, and then, you know, they were calling Jews back and pagans, but, you know,

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I mean the difference with all of that was Christ. Right. Yeah. So, you know, it's, it's just, those verses were just really interesting to me to, to get to that point, you know, as you got through chapter five, especially, you know, going from, you know, reading about, uh, you're only getting the milk, you know, um, uh, you should be getting, growing into the meat, you know, getting the meat and, and all of that.

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But, uh, anyway, yeah, that was, that was kind of my, my little, uh, take that I, I kind of was studying through with that.

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So. Praise God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause that really is what it boils down to is as we mature as believers, we are called to move from the simple milk onto eating.

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Let's get some steak. Let's get some veggies. Let's eat a full meal that is going to satisfy and nourish so that we can become the growing boys and girls that God has called us.

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And so, and again, uh, it's, it's so practical, but the thing that's different, like Jason just mentioned is, is

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Jesus because of the work of Jesus on the cross, because of the fulfilled work that he did on the cross and that he rose again on the third day and ascended the right hand of the father.

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These things take on a, a even greater context, just like the author of Hebrews goes all the way through and makes all the comparisons.

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Like Jesus is the better sacrifice. Jesus is the better Moses. Jesus is the better this and the better that even these simple, practical things that Jews of the day were walking out.

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Like there's a new layer to it because the Messiah had come and that is what they were missing.

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The Messiah they had been looking for was right before their eyes. And the call of what he said in his life and what he taught takes these things to such an even deeper depth that for us today, make, can make this walk one even more fulfilling because as I always say, um, to go with what you were saying, the most practical things in this life are the most spiritual taking communion.

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It's, it's a practical thing, but it's a precious spiritual sacrament that we do in honor to the

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Lord until he comes. We do these different things, but it's not always just about the signs and wonders and the miracles.

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I, uh, same thing. I'm, I'm involved in seeing different movements like that and all that. And, um, actually really studying through this has helped me ground out on some things with that.

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Like I've experienced it. I was deaf. Now I hear right. Like, and Jesus did, it was only him.

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And because of the work that he promised so that I would have hope that he was who he said he was.

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And as a confirmation of the gospel that was preached to me, that is what signs and wonder wonders and miracles are for not for us to be superheroes.

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Yeah. Sorry. Um, uh, yeah, just to piggyback off of what you're saying today, I actually experienced that in worship.

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Um, at the 9am service, um, a guy was, was, uh, speaking in tongues and that's all that was running through.

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My brain was let there be an interpreter, please be an interpreter, please be an interpreter. And they did so many interpret.

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And I tell you what, like it hit me so hard. I got to that point of like, the snot was running down my face, bros, you know, one of those, but it was such a good word.

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And, uh, and I mean, it's, it's like, just like you're saying, Josh, these things are real, you know, and we have talked about this thing.

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Uh, we've talked about being cautious continuationists for a while on this podcast.

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And it's like, you know, that is one example where it's like, man, like God is so real and you can experience this, you know, for real as, as a believer.

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And, uh, yeah, I mean, it's, it's just amazing, you know, just to, just to experience that.

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And, and, and I don't, maybe the experience is the wrong word. I'm sure Greg will correct me on that.

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You know what, man, like, like when the Holy spirit knocks you down or, or like makes you weep and, you know, just like coddles you.

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It's one of those things like, Oh man, I needed that. But when it's written, when it's real and it's real.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Amen. Move of the spirit. Well, the problem is, is the Lord doesn't give us nerf toys in this world.

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He gives us sharp items, right? He gives us things like, it's good, uh, like cigars and bourbon and, and miracles.

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And I'm not putting those, I'm saying he gives us sharp things and he said, and he says, do it all unto the glory of God and like healing and miracle.

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I mean, that is a sharp item, so to speak. That is an item that can be manipulated and can be misused and can be misrepresented just like many other things that, um, the

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Lord has given to us for our pleasure and to bring him glory at the same time. Right. Um, so it's like you can abuse just about anything and it's, and it might seem like sometimes too on this podcast, we might pick on one or two things, but it's just because your heart aches when you see it manipulated to a point to where it's being exported to third world countries and in the, in the gospel is all about prosperity and making money and all these things.

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And then you look at some of these guys and I know both of you guys have traveled internationally. So you've seen these types of people where they, they don't have anything and they're the most blessed, happy, peaceful, uh, connected to God, people that you can find and go, what are we doing wrong in this country?

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You know, when we think it's all about the mighty dollar, the car, the camper, the house, the whatever it is, right.

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The dog and the family and the picket fence. And it's like, no man, like Christ is all that there is. That's the only thing we should be pining after and wanting and bringing glory for.

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But I don't know how I got on that. I got kind of sidetracked, but yeah, go ahead. No, that was great. And because that's who the gospel is for, it's for the poor, it's for the broken, it's for the ones who have a contrite heart, who, who can really receive it.

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And so even man, just with everything going on around the nations, um, I'm blessed to be involved with some ministries that do a lot of work over there and hear testimonies and hear just of the crazy things that the

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Lord is doing. And then I look around and I see some of just the absolute Tom foolery because I've also like, you guys have known me for years.

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You've seen my walk. And now I would say I'm in the same boat as you guys. I am a you're reformed.

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You're cautious, continuous.

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Yeah. But I would say that I have become reformed in some of my thinking and some of those things in the literal sense of the word.

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Yeah, absolutely. I had a lot more, uh, what I would say a liberal view on the gifts of the spirit and the things of the spirit.

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But now if it's not manifesting and glorifying Jesus, then I doubt that it's the Holy Spirit.

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It's going to be another one. And that's why we are called to test every spirit. And unfortunately within America, we, we don't test.

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Yeah. We, we rather would love to see all the cool stuff happen to have these experiences and we've watched the new age and we've watched

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Eastern spiritualism and even the spiritualism of our own country, uh, ancestry worship through the native

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Americans and some of that stuff. We see that just pour through within the church. And instead we're not pursuing after the spirit of God so that he might do a mighty work and that it might glorify

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Jesus. Cause that's what it's all about to confirm the gospel and to glorify Jesus. Yeah. Yeah.

20:48

And, and, you know, I, I see also just, uh, you know, and again, we do talk about this a lot on the podcast and it gets hard to get away from, but it's like, you know, at times it's like people are just saying,

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Hey, just, just, you know, change, change your way with, with this one little thing.

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Just, just sit back, you know, don't, don't have such an opinion. Don't have such a biblical stance on one thing, you know, let's just be unified, you know, don't, don't say anything about Stephen Furtick.

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Don't say anything about Joel Osteen. Don't say anything. You know, you can't call them by name. If you're going to talk about this stuff, you, you say it in a roundabout way.

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Yeah. You can't be direct. And it's like, you know, yeah, there, there is something that we, uh, we do that we are unified with and that's

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Christ. Like that's the only place that, um, you know, it, it, you know, again, it's like not the oneness.

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We're not talking about, uh, uh, modalism. We're not talking about some of this crazy stuff that we hear these guys talk about,

21:51

T .D. Jakes and whoever I've already named three. We don't want to name them. We don't want to name them all for you.

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But here we go. But yeah, no, man, the, what we, uh, what we strive to have in common, uh, you know, is

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Christ. And some of these tertiary issues that we talk about, these secondary doctrines, I mean, we can, we can agree to disagree in a, in a way, but you know, let's, let's use the

22:14

Bible to explain what we actually believe. Come on. Amen. Yeah. And I, and I would say to piggyback off what you were saying, um,

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I just said that, and I was in a clubhouse chat and some lady came out and she had like the rainbow thing and the vegan and this, and she called you and she said, and she was talking about someone and she said,

22:31

I want to veggie back off someone. I kid you not you guys. And they go, what? And she goes, I don't,

22:36

I don't eat meat. I don't talk about it. Pigs have been, uh, you know, like, oh my gosh. Anyway, so to piggyback off what you're saying really quick too, about the, you know,

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I never read the gospel, see Jesus heal someone. And then that person just immediately goes back to their old sinful life.

22:52

Their life was changed. Exactly. The glory to God just wasn't in the physical healing. It was the one came back or the, you know, or the one stands before the

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Sanhedrin and says, yeah, I don't know how it happened, but I was blind and now I can see that's all I can say.

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Like there was a witness there. There was a change of heart. There was a regeneration. There was a saving. And that's the purpose

23:12

I believe of healing when we say bring glory to God. Yes. And look at the Lord in his perfect prescriptive will in an unfallen world.

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Yes. We all would be in perfect health and all that good stuff. And we know all about original sin and all that stuff and why the world is why it is right.

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My point is, is that the glory part of God is God getting the glory in, in not only the healing of the physical, but the saving of the spiritual.

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And then us professing that, right. It's a catalyst for the great commission. I feel like, and that's where I kind of look and go, okay, is, is that being promoted in this person's ministry or in this meeting or, or this church, or is it, you know, more celebrity and look what

23:56

I can do and emotional and things like, and there's nothing wrong with emotions. Don't get me wrong. Let's read the book of Ecclesiastes.

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Most of the Psalms read Job. We have a lot of emotions going on there. Right. Definitely. Some would even argue

24:08

David had some type of melancholy bipolar stuff going on there. I'm not saying that, but I'm saying theologians and scholars have argued that.

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So not saying emotions are bad. Right. I'm just saying, uh, you know, whatever you cling to in time of trouble, that is your true

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God. So if it's your emotions, your job or whatever it is, that's your true God. So what we have to do is we have to try to put

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Christ at the center. And I think what you're talking about here, Josh is going to get us there. Some practical things that allow us to put

24:34

Christ at the center and, uh, you know, get us through that sanctification and glorify him and all we do. Amen.

24:40

Absolutely. So looking at the first one and really just looking at what this is about, it's about the doctrine of Christ.

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So we know, and I was even talking about this in my Bible study on Friday, uh, Christ was not

24:53

Jesus's last name. Like that wasn't Joseph's last name that he took on. And because of the whole blended family concept, it's a title.

25:02

Sure. He was the Messiah. And so these are the elementary principles of Jesus in his

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Messiah ship and what the calling in that was, because we have chosen to believe in him as Messiah.

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And so in that, the first one is the one that should always be first and that's repentance from dead works.

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We know that unless the spirit of God draws us by the proclamation of the gospel that we won't repent.

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We won't make that choice. Did you just say total depravity from tulip? Keep going, bro.

25:33

I'm listening. All right. Okay. Okay. The atonement one is going to be tough, but we'll get them over that hump.

25:41

Yeah. So we, we get to this point of repentance where it's not our desire.

25:47

We would love to lie about all of the nastiness of our life and say, I'm a good person.

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Like we have good quality because God made us, but that doesn't make us good people. We are all scumbags without Jesus.

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But repentance is not a one -time event. And most Christians, especially I find in the

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West, they desire to make it a one -time event that I said the prayer, I did the thing, and you know what?

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All I had to do is change my mind. That's the other one that really, I'm going to quote something, grinds my gears.

26:19

Like it drives me nuts. Repentance is not just changing your mind. If someone has told you that, then they haven't looked at the

26:26

Bible in its totality because it's not just changing your mind. Anybody can change their mind. Anybody can change their mind about their certain thing, but unless your mindset changes from your sinfulness, because you're repenting from sin, you're not repenting from a bad mindset.

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You're not repenting from, oh, well maybe that's just not a good, no, you're repenting because you sinned.

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And so turning from that and turning back to God and to God's leading, to God's direction, that is going to be true repentance.

26:54

True repentance action follows the words. Exactly. There's action behind it. You just quoted

27:00

Dan Mahler and Todd White. Go ahead. No, no, no. He just said, he just spoke against it, what they say.

27:11

He said the right thing. That's what Dan Mahler and Todd White teach. No, no, no. That's what they teach.

27:17

You change your mind and that's it. Yeah, that's a tough one, man. And I love those guys. I know that they're really trying and they try a lot better than most.

27:26

They're going to do the hard things that most people don't want to get out of their pew and go and actually pray for someone.

27:31

He does. But there is such that pivotal component that you, and I think he's really come to a realization on that though in the past couple of years that you actually have to tell people to repent.

27:42

Jesus' first public words after his baptism was repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

27:49

And so if repentance is not the message that we're carrying, then we're not carrying the gospel. And so that's a really hard fact for a lot of people to deal with and it's because they weren't actually told to repent.

27:59

Yeah. And so, but it has to be more than just, I'm going to change my mind. Like, no, if you look at pornography, you actually have to say, this is bad and sinful and I need to turn away from doing this and do the right thing.

28:12

If you are lusting after someone, you have to say, this is wrong. Just not, man, I need to change my mind about this.

28:18

I need to think about this differently. That's not ever going to produce a lifestyle of sanctification and of putting off the old man and putting on the new.

28:27

And so with that, repentance is the easy one. But the thing that really has to be addressed is it's not just about changing your mindset.

28:35

It's not about changing your lens. It's about turning from your sin. Yeah. And if we say that we are without sin, the

28:41

Bible tells you that you are a liar and the truth is not in you. And so in that, we just have to be really humble.

28:47

That's the point of repentance. It's to humble us so that we will realize that unless Jesus had performed the work that he performed on the cross to atone for our sins, then we have no hope.

28:59

The only hope that we have is, one of my old boss's brothers used to say, the only hope that we have without Christ is the fire of damnation.

29:09

That's our hope. And so the promise of that, oh, it actually, it should make repentance so worth it because we then, we get to just give that to the

29:20

Lord. When we repent and we turn, like he will wrap us. The blood covers us and it brings you to such a place of purification.

29:29

It makes me want to cry to think about it because I was a scumbag and I know without the blood of Jesus, without that and without me actually turning from my sin and saying, actually,

29:41

I was that person, I would not be able to be the man that I am today. So this is kind of why

29:48

I say more disciples and less pastors. And I say it kind of flippantly, but I mean, anyone can get up there.

29:54

Not anyone, but many people, many people can get up there and tell you and speak to you and give you words.

30:02

And you go, okay, I hear those words. How many people are out there? Okay, let me put it another way.

30:09

If you're, if you're telling someone to repent, you must have first repented yourself. That's right.

30:14

Or that's hypocrisy. Judge not lest ye be judged. That's exactly what Christ is talking about.

30:19

He's like, no, you don't get to have a secret sin and then go judge someone else with that same sin and go, well,

30:24

I know Christ and you know, that's why I get to say, you got to stop doing that. No, no, no, no. You don't get, judge not lest ye be judged for your own sin.

30:32

So this weird thing of if we actually had more disciples that were walking the walk and actually doing the talk, right, instead of just saying it,

30:40

I think the Christian church would be in a different place because, you know, we might say, we might refer to non -believers as the lost, but they're not stupid.

30:48

They can sniff out someone who's hypocritical real quick. Real quick.

30:53

Can't they? And sometimes Christians, we're the king of hypocrisy. We have all the right words and we can say these things and we kind of put on this show and we know how to act around certain people when in fact

31:03

Christ wants authenticity and repentance gets to the heart of that authenticity, right? So I would encourage listeners to, when you're saying that, you know, have true repentance because if not, it hinders you from even preaching repentance.

31:18

Come on. I can't preach repentance if I'm not practicing it in my own life. That's right. And that kind of goes into when

31:25

I say, you know, like I said, flippantly, more disciples, less pastors. I want more disciples out there that are actually doing the work, right?

31:34

That are working through the sanctification, that are looking at what Paul said and what Christ said and everyone else in the

31:41

Bible throughout Old and New Testament saying, I want to put that in life and not just speak it to someone else for someone else to do it.

31:48

No one likes a boss that just tells you what to do and then doesn't do it yourself, right? That is like the worst type of manager.

31:54

And we've all probably experienced those types of people, right? Do as I say, not as I do. And it's like, you don't want that in a leader, a shepherd or a pastor either.

32:02

It's like, I want to know that you're walking that walk with me and teaching others to do that.

32:08

And then those disciples disciple others and so on and so forth. But yeah, repentance. You know, what it makes me think of is

32:13

Galatians 5, Romans 1, you know, just different sins that are represented in those chapters, you know, that maybe we think that we don't need to repent from, from anger, from gossip, from, you know, all these little things.

32:28

I mean, you know, 1 John 3, 3, 8, whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil.

32:34

The devil has been sinning from the beginning. That escalated quickly. Yeah. Right. The reason the

32:40

Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning for God's seed abides in him and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

32:51

I mean, think about this, you know, like, I mean, I love those churches that I've ran across that actually have a moment of repentance as a corporate body.

33:03

I don't know if you guys follow Doug Wilson's church at all, but they do have a moment of the corporate body coming together and, you know, repenting of their sin.

33:14

They don't have to shout it out and tell everyone. But yeah, they're repenting weekly.

33:20

They're repenting daily. I mean, you know, this isn't, this isn't like a, woe is me.

33:26

I'm such a horrible, horrible, and we are, we are. Is that a flogging yourself

33:33

Puritan act? Don't get me wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This isn't just over and over. Yeah. Like Christ did die for our sins, but let's, let's remember what repentance has to do with, you know, we like, we, we need to repent for, you know, all of these things.

33:48

That's good. Look at Galatians 5 and Romans 1. You'll, you'll see a lot of things in there. Amen. It's all you, man.

33:56

Oh, that was great. The next one, faith towards God. I think people misconstrue what their faith is many times this day, right?

34:06

We just think, and people think, I believe in Jesus. I'm good. I said the prayer.

34:11

I've got the Willy Wonka golden ticket. I'm all set. And then like we were just talking about, they don't live that lifestyle of repentance.

34:19

And so they walk out a life that shows that they actually haven't encountered the gospel and the true and living

34:24

God. They do not have a fear of the Lord because the fear of the Lord is the foundation of wisdom.

34:31

It's the foundation of understanding. It's the foundation of knowledge. All those are in the Proverbs. So when that's your foundation, your faith is built on that.

34:39

And like it talks about five chapters later, now faith is the substance of things hoped for, but not yet seen.

34:47

When we respond to the gospel, one of the main things that we respond to is that Jesus Christ and his appearing is our only hope.

34:56

One, we have trusted on the finished work of the cross and that Jesus did what he said that he did, that he has atoned for our sin.

35:04

And because of that, we can be cleansed and be with God forever. That someday we will receive a resurrected body and we will go into eternity with God forever.

35:17

And when that's our faith, like when that's really our hope, when that is what our eyes are set upon, it changes everything about how we live this life.

35:25

Because we realize that our everyday life actually matters.

35:31

Not in a works way. It's not so that we can somehow earn our way to heaven. No. But it's what

35:36

Jesus' sermon on the mount was all about. And it's what James talks about in James chapter one.

35:42

No, James chapter two. Show me your faith by your works. If you have true faith and you truly believe that Jesus was who he said he was, you're going to do the things that he said to do.

35:53

And really that is what a true disciple does. And even just go on what you were saying.

35:58

I'm going to steal that. I'm going to use that. I'll give you credit if I think about it. But literally we need more disciples.

36:08

Jesus never said go and make pastors. He never said go and make apostles, go and make evangelists, go and make teachers.

36:16

God does that. God gives those things as gifts to the church to equip the everyday lay person to go and do the works of the ministry.

36:25

And so for each one of us, whether we're in a position of ministry or doing this or doing that, our call is to go and make disciples in the most practical way.

36:35

And one of the things that I really love in many movements within the history of the church is the push that the family is where you start with that.

36:44

Your family is your first ministry. If you do not take that seriously, then it does not matter who else you disciple if your own son is on his way to damnation.

36:54

And if you can't effectively pastor him, and if you can't effectively lead him and disciple him, then

37:00

I don't think you're actually doing a good job discipling anybody else. And that's a hard one for me.

37:05

I have going to be a 12 -year -old stepson, and the thing that provokes the most fear of the

37:10

Lord in me is my leadership and my guidance of Him. People tell me

37:17

I'm a gifted teacher all the time, and that's well and fine and good, but that just means I get stricter judgment someday.

37:24

That just means that the words that I say are actually going to be held at a higher standard. And so if I'm not doing my job in raising my son and discipling him to love

37:33

Jesus so that at the moment the Lord would call him in His sovereignty, He would respond. If I'm not doing that, then

37:40

I'm not doing a good job. I see in the American church as well just the sluggishness of all of that.

37:48

The family, it's the dad that works 12 hours a day, the mom that might be working 10 as well, the kid getting brought up by another person.

37:59

In some situations, you know, it happens. You need to have someone that watches your kid, that is watching them while you're at work or whatever.

38:13

But you know what? It is important to have a Bible study with your family, have a

38:19

Bible study with your wife, have a Bible study, you know, even one -on -one, just a quick one on the way to school, dropping your kids off.

38:26

Wherever it is, get that prayer in, get that exhortation.

38:32

I mean, any way that you can insert Christ into that conversation is always worth it.

38:40

But again, it's how sluggish do we get and how comfortable and complacent do we get in our life as the church, whether it's not going to church on a

38:52

Sunday morning because you got a party that night. And it's not, you know, it's like, well, church is at 11, church is at 9, you know, your party is at 5 or 6.

39:01

Like, why do you have to skip church, you know? But anyway, yeah. Yeah. And with that too, for any of you listening, if you're not in that habit, if you're not in that practice, one, none of us is perfect at this.

39:14

There have been many saints that have walked 30, 40, 50 years and still aren't doing everything right.

39:20

And so for you, you can take an active step. And this is where it becomes practical. If you're not walking that out and you're not seeing those works come by the faith that you have in Jesus because you have turned your faith to him as your

39:34

Messiah, as your Redeemer, you can start today. You can literally start after you watch this podcast or listen to it on whatever avenue that you use.

39:43

You can start today. If it's too late where you are and everybody's already asleep, you can start tomorrow. But the biggest thing is, is response.

39:50

That is, I've been going through the Sermon on the Mount with my Bible study for the past nine months.

39:56

So we've been working through section by section, verse by verse, and we're wrapping up. And the biggest thing we have been harping and talking about, and it's what

40:05

Jesus ends the Sermon on the Mount with, and that's response. How are you going to respond? Are you going to be the foolish man that built your house on sand?

40:12

Or are you going to be the wise man who built your house on the rock? And so for even for this, it's all about how you respond today.

40:19

So I encourage you, wherever you're at and whatever you're doing, you can take a more active step tomorrow to be a better disciple of Jesus.

40:26

Not so that you can somehow earn salvation, but so that you actually can show people your love for God.

40:32

Because Jesus said, if you love me, you will obey my commandments. Amen. Amen. Yeah. The next one, and this one, man,

40:43

I was super challenged recently by a video that I watched from someone you guys might've heard from,

40:49

Torben Sondergaard. You guys familiar with the teaching that he's done recently on the doctrine of fire, the baptism of fire?

40:57

I would encourage you guys to go listen to it because it radically changed my idea on this. So especially within the charismatic world, the baptism of fire is this thing that people pursue after.

41:08

I pursued after it. I've taught sermons on it. And now I publicly repent for that because I actually believe no longer that that has anything to do with an experiential baptism of fire by the

41:22

Holy Spirit. I actually think Jesus is talking about eternal judgment there. When Jesus returns, there's going to be a judgment.

41:30

People are either going to be fully sealed by the Holy Spirit, where that manifested the seed that you talked about earlier.

41:37

We are going to sprout, and we're going to receive that resurrected, glorified body. And then there's going to be a resurrection of the unrighteous, and they're going to endure eternal fire.

41:48

And so when John the Baptist is talking about that, he says - Reference it. What verse are you talking about?

41:53

Matthew 3, 17, where John the Baptist said, there's one coming after me. I'm not even worthy to tie his bootstrap.

42:00

I baptize you today in water, but he's going to baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire. And recently,

42:06

Torben was reading that, but he read it through the Amplified Bible, which think whatever you might about the

42:12

Amplified Bible. Every once in a while, they might get something right and pick up on something that we normally don't because no

42:18

Bible translation is perfect. But they actually picked up that there's a differentiation in the Greek there that actually separates the baptism of the

42:26

Holy Spirit from the baptism of fire, and that it's actually talking about judgment. And so for me, that actually, because it actually goes more in line with one, the preaching of Jesus.

42:36

He was an apocalyptic kind of guy. He was a prophet that was saying, you need to turn from your sin, and that after the atoning work on the cross, you need to trust in me for your salvation so that on that day when

42:46

I come with hell and fire and angels and judgment, that you'll be found as responded to me so that you might receive eternal life and enter into the kingdom prepared for you by my

42:59

Father. And so in that - Well, I mean, you could even argue too, believers and unbelievers alike will go through a time of judgment.

43:08

Absolutely. Every knee is going to bow before him. He's going to judge both you and I and everyone else, whether you're a believer or not.

43:17

Classically, I've always assumed of fire was the literal reference to second chapter of Acts, but I'm open to looking at it.

43:27

What'd you say his name was? We'll look into him. Torben Sondergaard. I'll make sure and send you, because he got so much flack.

43:33

He's a charismatic guy. He does street preaching. He lays hands on people. Ministry gets messy, but he's going into every city, in every country.

43:45

He got kicked out of Denmark for preaching the gospel. And so he's about it. He's about the work of making disciples.

43:52

Is everything great? No. Real ministry is going to be messy. But when it comes to that, that really, and even 1

44:00

Corinthians chapter 3, another one that I've referenced often, every one of us, Paul said,

44:06

I'm a master builder. I have laid the foundation in Christ and you're building on it. And everything that you build in this life, you can either build with gold, silver, and precious stones, or you can build with wood, hay, and stubble.

44:20

But on that day, your works will be tried, and you'll either inherit a really beautiful house, or it's going to be as if you just made it in through the fire.

44:30

And so thinking about the fire, that really just lays it. But even to pull back just from the aspect of fire baptism, but water.

44:40

We talk about sacraments. Baptism is one of the most important things. It's the call of the believer, not for salvation, but because it's one of those commands of Jesus.

44:52

It is meant to be that public display, and I don't really like that. It's a public display of an inward chain.

44:57

No, it's actually a public proclamation. Because back in the day of the first century church and second century, probably all the way up to the fourth century before Roman Catholicism and all that kind of stuff, to publicly declare yourself as a believer in Jesus, especially for a

45:15

Gentile, was met with a ton of opposition. Well, usually you're signing your death warrant up until about 350

45:21

AD, yeah. Exactly. And so in that, it was so important.

45:27

And the practicality of it, just like it talks about in Romans, it talks about it in Colossians, it has a spiritual implication where you are going down, and it's as if you're being raised with Christ in the newness of life.

45:40

It's that declaration of saying that God has done a work in me, and I have now pledged my life as a living sacrifice unto

45:49

Him. I don't know. I think I just continue to come back to Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, right?

45:54

Yeah. I mean, He is the ultimate sacrifice. I mean, these verses are pretty much just going through our maturity in Christ, and just how we need to really think about how we live out our

46:10

Christian walk, right? Yes. I mean, we definitely... Faith comes by hearing.

46:17

Hearing comes by the word, right? And that's the Calvinism way. I thought that was the

46:24

Romans way, but... I'm completely joking about... Everybody's just going to get out here and be like, these guys are...

46:31

Yeah, no, no. Biblically, we try to... Yeah, we are just having fun over here.

46:40

But anyway, yeah. No, I love these verses, and I love talking through them, for sure. Josh, what were the washings that the

46:50

Jews did? Do you know those? I was going to ask you that, and I didn't want to throw that, spring that at you.

46:56

I forgot to ask you before we started. No, that's awesome. Literally, and this was one of the coolest things. Back in 2019,

47:02

I got to go to the nation of Israel. It was one of the most incredible experiences

47:08

I've ever had in my life. There's the day that Jesus saved me. There's the day I got married, and then there's the day

47:14

I went to Israel. Those are the experiences, and oh, man. I actually got to go to a plate, a public mikvah, where they would do the sacrificial washing, where Jesus would have went before going into synagogues.

47:29

Serious? Yes. In the city of Magdala, there is a public washing area where you get to walk through, and you get to see public washing places that Jesus would have washed through.

47:40

That's right. Oh, man. It was so cool. But they would do that as a, for to be, what's the word

47:49

I'm looking for? Just cleansed. Ah, yeah. Ritually cleansed. Okay. So that when they went into places of public worship, just like now, they wear the kippahs or different things like that, and there were certain mediations that were required to occur for them.

48:04

It was the same thing. Full body submission. It wasn't just... Was it every week, or was this just something that you did like we do with baptism?

48:14

Well, unless you're a Baptist, you get baptized about 10 times, and then you're finally saved. I've been baptized four.

48:22

I was going to say, I was four too. Dunk them until it works. Exactly.

48:28

But it was actually a ritualistic component of, I would say, a ritual component in a yearly life of a

48:37

Jew. And so there would be, because of certain ceremonies, certain things like that,

48:43

I don't know all of it yet. I'm still kind of studying and learning some of that stuff, because historical

48:48

Judaism is something that I love to study. Because really, like it says in the book of Acts, following Jesus and what became the sect of the way branched off from Judaism.

49:02

And then eventually the Gentiles were included, and then now we see where the church is today. And so really, the fruits of Judaism is what birthed into the faith that we have today, which is really incredible.

49:13

But then we realized that when Jesus told the Pharisees, y 'all are making up your own stuff and not actually listening to what the word said, we have been able to build off of things the correct way.

49:25

Not always fully. No one's theology is perfect, but we're getting there.

49:33

But it is really fascinating, the ritual worship that they would have and the things that the everyday man would do.

49:40

But the ritual washings, and then even you got John the Baptist, when he went and he's out in the wilderness in the

49:46

Jordan, and he's telling people, you better repent, the Messiah is coming, you better prepare for the day of judgment.

49:52

And then he even calls out the Pharisees, you brood of vipers, who told you to come here so that you might get saved?

49:58

Who told you? Called him out. It was awesome. He was so hardcore. So hardcore.

50:04

And that was one of the places I got, that was my fourth baptism, which was awesome.

50:09

Oh, dude, I still kept, I made sure I went extra. I got the little white robe thing. I did the whole thing.

50:16

And it was, there's nothing more powerful than getting your eyes stung by the water of the Jordan in the middle of 110 degree heat in the middle of Israel.

50:25

It was amazing. Now, the last one that's always included in washings, people will talk about the spiritual baptism, acts, all that stuff.

50:34

Totally still believe that's for today. Again, totally believe that sometimes that stuff gets misconstrued, it gets made weird.

50:41

And really, we just need to return to the simplicity of the word and let the Holy Spirit do what the

50:46

Holy Spirit does and stop trying to do it for him, because he's actually way better at doing it than we are.

50:52

We actually kind of suck. Yeah, we do. And we just make it weird. We always mess it up, man. Yeah. And so just believing the word of what it says, because he came, it says in the book of Acts chapter one, he came so that we might be empowered to be a witness.

51:07

Yeah. And so that, again, it goes back to, we are called to witness to the promise of Jesus on the cross, to the promise of the resurrection, to the promise of the day that he's going to come back.

51:17

And that is why the promise of the Father was given unto us, so that we might live a life that witnesses to this wicked and perverse generation that surrounds us, that Jesus Christ is

51:29

Messiah. Amen. And that's what it's all for. Even going back to the spiritual gifts, even going back to the fruit of the

51:35

Spirit, that stuff is so that we would emulate and show people the promise of Jesus.

51:41

Amen. Yeah. Amen. Yeah. You know, this is kind of off the wall here, but it popped into my head when you said that.

51:48

I would love to see a chart on us, like the sensationalization, if that's a word, of the gospel with our comfortableness and wealth as a

51:58

I feel like we're almost like making up things because we've lost what it actually means to be saved.

52:04

I feel like we have to kind of make it emotional and sensational and these crazy things because we have it so good that we forget the actual good news of the gospel is we have been saved by grace alone through faith, and we no longer have to have, well, not separation, but hell is the wrath of God being poured out on those.

52:26

And I feel like, especially in the West, I know we talk about this a lot, but you go to other places in the world and you see it a little bit, but you don't see it as much as you do here in the

52:35

United States to where we've kind of just forgotten what it is the actual good news of the gospel is.

52:40

Absolutely. That we wake up every day and we go, oh my gosh, I am saved. I have been taken off the edge of an abyss and because of the imputed righteousness of Christ, I am now called righteous and I can stand before my father and he looks upon me and the accuser can't, and I have an advocate on my behalf and this is huge.

53:00

And we almost go, eh, that's not that big of a deal. I'm onto my job or onto my career or my ministry or whatever it is.

53:06

And then so that now becomes the new, we have to sensationalize that and make it, oh, look at this crazy thing or that crazy thing or whatever it is.

53:14

When in fact, I feel like the first century Jews were probably going, oh my gosh, our Messiah is here.

53:20

Yes. Christ, Yeshua is the Messiah. This is the one we've been waiting. That was sensational enough because they understood what that meant for them and as a people.

53:30

And in that day, it was so much simpler. And that's the hard thing. I've been saying this for a few years now is that especially the

53:38

American church, I would even just say the church of the West, you can see it in Europe in the places where they still have it, is that we are the rich young ruler.

53:47

We have become so used to the novelties of this life and to the things of this life that we have forgotten the true hope that we have received.

53:57

Like what you were saying, we don't wake up any longer and say, oh my goodness, if I did not know

54:03

Jesus, if I did not repent from my sin and receive the saving work on the cross, then if I would have died today,

54:11

I would be awaiting hell. That the wrath of God on the day of judgment would be poured out on me.

54:19

And it also, because we have no need for hope here. In other countries, like take what's going on in Afghanistan.

54:26

Right now, they are being hunted like dogs. All they have is Christ. All they have.

54:32

And all they have is the hope. I forget where it is specifically, but that God is the just judge, and he will vindicate the way they lay down their life in this season.

54:44

And unfortunately, in the West, we don't have that. Unfortunately, we have been given reprieve. We've been given opportunities and seasons where we have not endured the same persecution.

54:55

Well, persecution is if you don't get a second shot of caramel in your latte, right? Because they saw the cross you're wearing on your neck at Starbucks.

55:05

It has to be. It has to be. Two quick things.

55:10

First of all, on the rich young ruler, I think we're closer to that than you think. And I think it's multi -level because you've got to remember the rich young ruler by all standards was a good

55:18

Jew. He'd obeyed every command. He had obeyed every law. He knew the precepts of God.

55:24

He had that memorized. And the issue was, is Christ knew the one thing that was still an idol in his life.

55:30

And it was his wealth. And he said, well, then just give everything you have to the poor and come follow me. And it says he turned away slowly and sadly and walked away.

55:38

And that's the heart of the gospel is it's like abandon all. And we do that here in America a lot.

55:44

We are the rich young ruler. Yes, we love our comfortableness and our wealth, but we actually are really good at kind of being good

55:51

Jews, so to speak, like the rich young ruler, like we, we can do all the little laws and rules that say,

55:56

Hey, well, I don't say this word and I don't do that. And I don't go to that place at certain times. And, you know,

56:01

I stay away from these people, which I think even that is a little bit of a, of a myth. Christ was hanging out with the sinners too.

56:07

He wasn't out of the world. He was in it though. That's right. But then we still have that one thing that we hang on to.

56:12

And then Christ comes to us. The gospel comes to us and goes, Oh, well, no, you need to give that up because that's an idol. And we turn slowly from it.

56:19

We go, no, we like all the comforts of this instead, you know, and then two, I would say, you know, you're making that, you know, we're talking about Afghanistan and us having it comfortable.

56:27

It's like, man, when I look at David's story, David, one of my most favorite characters in the Bible, probably a lot of people's obviously, uh, when did it get bad for him?

56:36

It was usually when he was doing really good. Yeah. You ever noticed that? Oh man. Like it was when he counted his men. It was like when he had all the kingdoms conquered.

56:42

It was like when he was riding high boy, how quickly he forgot who brought him there. And then it was like,

56:48

Hmm, what's Bathsheba doing over there? Oh, let's go count our armies. Oh, you know, and then it's like, but in those times of suffering and running from Saul and, uh, you know, being overrun by the

57:00

Philistines multiple times. And it was like, you read those. And that's when he was the closest to God.

57:05

There's like a refining process, right? Precisely. And, and, and I pray and believe me, my wife and I wept over what we were seeing that was going on in Afghanistan.

57:13

When I had to read a tweet from one of the leaders over there that says we are handing off the 10 year old girls to leadership quote.

57:20

That means they're being raped. They're being sold into slavery and they're being married off. Okay. Yeah. That just tears that baby.

57:26

And I go, Lord come quickly. Right. But at the same time, I have to understand that there's a refining process, uh, going on right now in Afghanistan for Afghani Christians.

57:35

Yeah. It's, it's, I mean, I saw a tweet yesterday and it said church membership across all

57:41

Afghanistan up 4 ,000 in the underground. Yes. Underground hundreds of thousands of people meeting in the underground right now to where just, you know, a year ago it was a couple thousand.

57:51

Yes. And it's like, dude, persecution brings forth the fruits of the spirit.

57:57

It brings forth the refining fire of Christ. It's like, so yes, we're sad for that.

58:02

We don't, we don't want to see those things happen, but at the same time, dude, the word of God, isn't going to go void.

58:07

No, it doesn't go without purpose. No, there are things happening in Afghanistan on behalf of the gospel right now.

58:14

They're absolutely amazing. So yeah, I don't know. I want to throw that in there too, because man, Afghanistan. And then

58:19

I even get angry at myself. I'm like, this is happening every day in multiple countries around the world. Yet the church only perks up when it's on CNN and Fox news.

58:26

It's like, what the heck is wrong with us? Like Paul commands us pray for your brothers and sisters that are in prison that are being persecuted.

58:33

You understand that you were in prison. God pulled you out of there and saved you and was like, no, that ain't for you, brother.

58:39

It's like, so we pray for not, you know, and that was different. You weren't saved when you're in prison, but I'm saying we pray for those.

58:45

And it's like, we should have that. Just like how Jason was saying, we should have a time of repentance in church. I feel like we should have a time of repentance for our brothers and sisters around the world.

58:53

You know, I've been trying to do that personally. I get up in the morning and go, okay, I don't know where they're at, who they are, what it's going through, but I got to wake up this morning in a soft bed and it was air conditioned.

59:02

There's a lot of my brothers and sisters that are professing Christ that didn't. They're waking up with cuts and bruises and, you know, rat infested cells and everything else.

59:11

And it's like, let's keep them at the forefront, man, because they're living up to what the gospel call really is.

59:17

Come on. I'd love to share a really great resource with you guys so that if you are looking for unique ways to be able to pray for the persecuted church or the church in Afghanistan, there's a ministry out there called

59:28

Global Cataclysmic Ministries. They produced a movie called

59:34

Sheep Among Wolves too. I know I shared that with you. And they're one of the forefront ministries that are out in the

59:41

Middle East, on the ground, doing the work in Afghanistan. Even the other day, one of them shared a post,

59:49

I believe it was on Facebook, that they had an underground church network that had 250 members.

59:56

And in two weeks, it grew to over 2 ,500. That's just insane.

01:00:02

They were getting opportunities to minister to the Taliban before the takeover and see villages doing

01:00:09

Bible studies with members of the Taliban and getting to share Christ with them. And just there's incredible, incredible things.

01:00:18

And on GCM's website, there's a really incredible, there's some resources on praying for the underground

01:00:24

Afghanistan church. Because even within their organization, I believe

01:00:30

Friday was the last time I've heard an update. They had not suffered a casualty within the church yet.

01:00:37

And that's including, so they had half of their church leaders stay, and then half of them with families ran for the mountains.

01:00:45

So that way they could escape with women, children, and then try and return later.

01:00:51

But it's about to be winter out there. It's crazy. But they have worked and sought, and they've raised almost $2 million in a little over two weeks to be able to pour into the underground

01:01:02

Afghanistan church over there. So just a shameless plug for you guys. And then my wife and I, we do

01:01:09

Voice of the Martyrs. Yes, love those guys. And it's crazy because you'll get a magazine and people's faces are blurred out because you can't see who they are because someone might see it and go kill them.

01:01:20

Oh, definitely. It was crazy though. You know what they're doing right now is they're saying, hey, if you could download sermons, textbooks, and Bibles onto flashcards, and then they color code them and they trade them in the underground.

01:01:31

So people can't be seen with a Bible in parts of China, Yemen, Turkey, there's other parts, right? And so you just have this little flashcard.

01:01:37

It just has a dot on it. If it's a green dot, it's a Bible, red dot is a resource, yellow dot is, you know. And they said it's like gold chips over there.

01:01:46

Could you imagine being in a country like, which one did you get this week, dude? Oh, I got to listen to that.

01:01:51

And they take it home. And here we are with 10 Bibles in our house. 10 Bibles. Don't open them sometimes. You know what I mean? We have like 20 apps on our phone.

01:02:01

Oh man, it's wild. But like we were saying, Jesus is doing amazing things in the nation of Afghanistan.

01:02:09

Prior to this event, the only reason Afghanistan had not been able to get past Iran as the number one growing church in the world was because they had too many martyrs.

01:02:19

Wow. And now with everything going on, many of the movements over there have not yet seen martyrdom.

01:02:26

And that just shows even the effective prayer of the saints here in America, praying for the hiddenness as they have traversed through the desert, as they have traversed through their cities, through their towns, and then been still continuing to proclaim the gospel, which is just incredible.

01:02:41

Because ultimately, even going back to the issue of suffering and Richie on the ruler and all that, suffering is meant to produce a work in us.

01:02:52

The Bible is clear about it. I can't think of the specific verses, but it's supposed to bring through patience, perseverance, long suffering, all of these things.

01:03:04

That is what suffering gives us the joy to do. Because if Jesus, the

01:03:10

Messiah, God himself came down and suffered on our behalf, who are we to think that our walk for him isn't going to cost us something as well?

01:03:20

And he even says, and now a lot of times people spiritualize this verse, and it does have a practical application, like I daily have to take up my cross and follow after Jesus.

01:03:30

But in Matthew chapter 10, he said, if you do not take up your cross, you are not worthy of me.

01:03:38

That's one of those Matthew 7, go from me, I did not know you verses that just terrifies me to say,

01:03:46

Lord, let me be walking worthy of you. Let me take up my cross.

01:03:52

I feel like most of the church only likes one side of Jesus. They don't like the, you set the hand to the plow and look back, you're not worthy.

01:03:59

If you love more, it doesn't mean you have to be spiteful against your mother and father.

01:04:06

It literally means like, look, there's going to be times where you have to choose between family and me. And if you can't make that choice, you're not fit for the kingdom.

01:04:14

We forget that Jesus said these things. He was a real dude, man. He was the real deal. Right. It's the fake unity

01:04:20

I was talking about earlier. Let's just push aside these secondary issues.

01:04:26

Let's just, you know, let's just agree about modalism. Let's just agree about one primary issues.

01:04:34

There's certain things let's, let's just come together because we all believe in Jesus. Well, you know what I don't use in Jesus name at the end of a prayer, like abracadabra, you know, and so, you know, it's like,

01:04:45

God is not a genie. And all these different things. I can't come into unity with that.

01:04:51

But yeah, it's it's just an it all of that is just an interesting subject to definitely dive into.

01:04:58

And I don't know how much more time we got. No, as we're gonna wrap it up here. We'll wrap it up. Josh will bring us home here. But I would just say to that's a good reason why you have creeds.

01:05:05

Yeah, you have doctrines, why you have confessions and catechisms throughout history. That's what the church does.

01:05:12

Westminster. Orthodoxy. Yeah, right. Yeah. Shout out to Westminster. Starting that back up tomorrow, actually in homeschool.

01:05:18

Amen. The kids catechism, but so those things help guide us right to stay in orthodoxy.

01:05:23

So we can look at someone who goes, Oh, you don't believe in three persons, one being Trinity. That's, that's not orthodoxy.

01:05:30

We don't, you know, that's not a primary issue. We have to have a discussion about that, right? You believe the gifts are for today and you don't have that's a secondary issue.

01:05:38

Okay, that's, that's something else that isn't in that same document. So it's like, I think that's why we have those things to Jada to kind of what you were saying.

01:05:46

I grew up, I'm agreeing with you. Like you gotta have those guidelines to determine, you know, I'm sorry, but I can't come in unity with a

01:05:53

Mormon or a Jehovah witness or a seventh day Advent or, or someone that speaks in tongues that doesn't have an interpreter standing there with them or one who's kind of hostile.

01:06:02

Sorry. Right now that might irritate the heck out of you, but that's still a secondary issue. I would say maybe we should do a whole episode on that.

01:06:08

What a secondary issue. What is it? I don't, I don't, I don't think in my opinion, when I look at speaking in tongues, baptism in the

01:06:16

Holy Spirit, things like that, second baptism, those are secondary issues. If you look at historical

01:06:22

Christianity, those were put outside the main doctrines of Orthodox Christianity, who

01:06:27

Christ was, who the Trinity was, what Christ's work on the cross was. Did he come in the flesh? Those types of things are our primary doctrines that I think like you,

01:06:35

Jason said, we have to agree on or I just can't, what are we coming in unity for? I'll hold hands so we can, you know, kumbaya.

01:06:41

No man, it's to advance the kingdom of Christ. Bring us home, Josh. For sure. So last three.

01:06:48

Now this next one, this one, most people, this is one that was one that gets drawn real weird.

01:06:53

And within a Jewish context, it actually has a much simpler meaning, the laying on of hands.

01:06:59

So most people like think that's all about the weird impartation and doing this and doing that.

01:07:05

It's more about two things. Soak up your repertoire.

01:07:13

I'm trying to bring it home. We are not trying to go into a flight style tailspin. We don't have dens out here to keep us recovered.

01:07:21

All right. But when it comes down to the laying out of hands, one, it has absolutely to do with priestly succession.

01:07:30

So putting authoritative eldership in within the local community church, some of those things. The other one has everything to do with Jesus's right and rulership as one who is of the lineage of Abraham and is the lineage of David.

01:07:45

Yeah. It's everything to do with the genealogical understanding of the passing down in the succession all the way from Adam at the promise of the redeeming one who would crush the head of the serpent all the way down to him being born.

01:07:59

It's the succession of the promise of the and how that has passed down.

01:08:05

Yeah. And that's why Paul later in his letters, he makes sure to call it like stop worrying about all these other endless genealogies and these things.

01:08:13

Stop worrying about your conspiracy theories and all this stuff and trust the fact that Jesus was the

01:08:18

Messiah and stop worrying about where you fall into the equation because it's not actually about us. It's all about him.

01:08:24

Yeah. And so with the laying out of hands, though, unfortunately, especially in this day and age, it gets made into a real weird thing.

01:08:30

Like, yes, lay hands on people when you pray, but Paul also told Timothy, don't let everybody lay hands on you.

01:08:37

Let's not be weird about it, but let's make it again. It's supposed to be something practical.

01:08:43

And so if it makes it impractical by making it weird, then you're probably not doing it right.

01:08:48

If it becomes impractical because you're trying to make it some spiritual goofy thing rather than it being the super practical aspects of the word of God and what we are called out to live in light of it, then you're missing the mark.

01:09:00

Right. Yeah. And then we begin to walk into those secondary things that eventually are going to turn into error.

01:09:06

And then, you know, you get those subtle corrections, you get those things, and ultimately, like, the Holy Spirit will lead you back, but only if you're listening for him.

01:09:14

And now the last two, a lot of times people lump these together. Okay. They're hard subjects.

01:09:22

They're the ones that, especially, I've run into lots of issues with people that want to have their own beliefs about these things rather than having the biblical beliefs on these things.

01:09:33

The one, resurrection of the dead. Someday, each one of us is going to receive a glorified body because this

01:09:40

Holy Spirit, who is the seed that was put inside of us, is the down payment and the first fruit of the promise of redemption on the day that we will receive our glorified bodies.

01:09:52

He is going to sprout forward and glorify us, not putting us up there with Jesus, but we receive a glorified body that we will be able to be in the presence of God in the age to come.

01:10:05

Yeah. At the same time, there's also going to be a resurrection of the dead for the unrighteous.

01:10:12

And because of that, that leads into the final subject. But when it comes to the resurrection of the dead, especially in the days of Jesus, you had a couple different camps.

01:10:20

You had the Pharisees. They definitely believed in the resurrection of the dead, but they were all partnered up with the

01:10:27

Zealots doing all sorts of weird stuff. They were making up their own traditions and really calling people to follow after them in their own religion rather than following after Yahweh, rather after following after Jesus and what they were called to.

01:10:41

And then you had the Sadducees who didn't believe in a resurrection of the dead and were really like, when you die, you just kind of go somewhere.

01:10:48

Right. Yeah. And so even now today, there's so many really weird theologies out there around these things, especially with the creeping in of the new age and some of that stuff.

01:10:59

Even when I was in prison, one of the guys that discipled me from the beginning, one of the brothers

01:11:04

I love more that was so instrumental in my walk, right before he got out, he fell into reading these really weird books by a guy named

01:11:12

Edgar Cayce. Okay. Who was a spiritualist in the 1950s, got into all sorts of weird wonky stuff.

01:11:18

He would go into these trances and told somebody that he was reading from the Akasic records, which are the book of life and all this stuff.

01:11:26

And then he started to impute, what's the word, reincarnation into the biblical faith and just this weird, weird, weird stuff.

01:11:35

And my buddy got just drug into it. And then he got home and his life got drug into it and walked away from his path with the

01:11:44

Lord. And it's been really unfortunate for him. It really stinks. Maybe you'll listen to this.

01:11:49

I hope you're out there, Blake. I love you, bro. But those things, when we don't have a biblical understanding, like Jesus said that this would happen, that he's going to gather us and that we are going to receive bodies that can be with him forever.

01:12:05

Paul's super clear about it in first Corinthians chapter 15. At the twinkling of an eye, we are going to move from mortality to immortality, from corruptible to incorruptible.

01:12:15

And then we get to be with God forever. And again, that's one of those things, practical life application.

01:12:23

We are living in light of what the promise is of the age to come. We live in light of that, not trying to earn it, but trying to make sure that we are staying in that narrow way that we might inherit on that day, the inheritance that God had planned for us, because we can get in.

01:12:40

We know God's sovereignty covers all of our mistakes, but making sure that we are walking in accomplishing the fullness of the good works that God had prepared for us from the beginning of the earth.

01:12:53

We know that God moves all things, controls all things. He's sovereign over all of creation.

01:12:59

But at the same time, there's that dualism of how we walk this out in a practical way, because we all know that we have been disobedient in moments of things that God has called us to.

01:13:10

And so those aren't things that affect our salvation, but they are things that affect our eternal reward.

01:13:16

They are things that can affect, you know, if we don't share the gospel with that person, the Lord definitely will probably have at least, you know, 12 more people lined up to go in there, but we missed that opportunity.

01:13:29

And so in that, when we skip over the little things, like when it comes, if martyrdom becomes a thing in our country, most

01:13:37

Christians are going to run and flee and lose their first love, because they couldn't even choose to share their faith when

01:13:43

God prompted them. They couldn't even choose to get up 15 minutes earlier in the morning and pray. They couldn't choose to fast.

01:13:49

Like, not choosing to do the things the Bible calls us to is going to produce a life that lacks those works that show our love for God.

01:13:58

And then the last one, and this is one of the other ones, I've encountered a ton of people with, there's been a real rise in annihilationism.

01:14:08

And so the belief that God's just going to wipe out everybody that he sends to hell. And like, no.

01:14:15

Eternal judgment from the perspective of the Bible, at least what I have found, and people might disagree with me on this, is that there's going to be a real, real lake where people are really going to endure eternal torment and separation from God for all of eternity, away from Him, but seeing

01:14:32

Him, being near to His presence. And the reality of that, the reality of that, if we live in light of that, not in this weird way, and that's the thing with these, we're not supposed to live these in light of a weird way.

01:14:44

It's supposed to be something that can practically impact our lives so that we will live active faith, so that we will really be obedient to the

01:14:52

Lord when He says, preach the gospel, preach the gospel. Don't preach the gospel and then use words.

01:14:59

Like, it actually says, you brought the verse up earlier, how can one respond unless they actually hear the

01:15:04

Word of God? They can't. It's not going to happen just because you live a good life. People would say

01:15:10

Jeff Bezos lives a good life. He's still, if he does not have Jesus, and if he has not called on Him as Messiah, and God has not drawn him and renewed him by His Spirit, he is still going to go to hell, unfortunately.

01:15:23

And so in that eternal judgment, living in light of that and understanding and knowing, like,

01:15:28

Lord, you are going to judge the living and the dead.

01:15:34

There is a day, Acts 17, Paul uses this when he talks to the Athenians. He says, there is a day set in the future when

01:15:41

God is going to judge the world by the man whom He has appointed and confirmed by raising him from the dead.

01:15:47

And so because we have believed that Jesus is Messiah, the promise of that, like, that's one of those biblical promises.

01:15:53

Everybody's like, yeah, I love Bible promises. Yes and amen. That's one of God's Bible promises, that He's going to judge the wicked.

01:16:02

It's going to happen. And having that stark reality as one of the things that is actually a building block of our faith,

01:16:10

I know for me, it has helped me have so much more compassion. It has helped me have so much more compassion for those that I see that are lost around me, those that I see that I know, even would claim to know

01:16:23

Jesus, but don't live lives that show me that they are regenerated, that don't show me that they have called on Him as Messiah, that they're living out that sloppy grace, sloppy agape, whatever you call it.

01:16:34

Sluggish Christianity. Yes. Well, you know, just as we're finishing up here too, what really did something for me too, when

01:16:40

I was in my mid -twenties and I went going back through and just kind of re -reading all the scripture verses

01:16:46

I had been brought up with, but then reading them for what they actually said and nowhere in the

01:16:52

Bible when we're talking about the judgment of God, or we're talking about hell or Hades or any of those places,

01:16:59

Sheol doesn't say, and then He's going to send you down there and turn you over to Satan and Satan's going to do his thing on you, like kind of how we have imagined.

01:17:08

It literally says in John 3, 36, whoever believes in the Son is eternal life. Whoever does not obey the

01:17:13

Son shall not see Him, but the wrath of God will remain on Him. So hell is a real place, but what's scary and what really helped me set my eyes and go, oh my gosh,

01:17:24

God is to be feared, both in reverence and to have a healthy fear of, kind of like when you had a healthy fear, when your dad came home and you heard the belt coming off, like, oh,

01:17:33

I've done something wrong. I should be a little bit scared. Like we don't like to talk about it, but hell is

01:17:39

God's wrath being poured out on the judged. That's what hell is. It isn't like He's sending you to a place where Satan pricks you with a pitchfork and Satan is actually an instrument of God's wrath, the

01:17:52

Bible says. So it's this weird thing where it's like, how holy and just and righteous is that when now

01:17:58

I have, that's why the Bible says, fear the Lord. The beginning of wisdom is to fear who He truly is, what

01:18:03

He is truly capable of. He is 100 % love, 100 % just, 100 % wrath.

01:18:10

He's all of these things. He's all of these characteristics and we can't just focus on one or two of those.

01:18:16

We have to understand that, you know, people say it's the absence, you know, hell is the absence of God. And I heard you use that term and in a sense it is the absence from His glory, but it's also the full presence of His wrath.

01:18:27

That should make us double think on what type of God we serve and who we are in relationship to Him.

01:18:34

Maybe not take this thing called our Christianity or the so flippantly when you look at it in that light.

01:18:41

Absolutely. And even with that, like people, and you were kind of touching on this in the beginning, they have this idea that somehow hell is the devil running around and getting to do whatever he would like and like sitting there and just torment.

01:18:54

No, like you were just saying, the wrath of God is what will torment you for eternity.

01:18:59

The devil, the original sinner, the one whose sin originated in heaven, when he rebelled against God, the reason why hell was created was for him and for the divine beings that rebelled with him.

01:19:13

And so in that, he's going to be enduring that torment as well, because he already has a divine body that is going to endure divine torment for all of eternity.

01:19:25

2 Peter 2 .9, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment.

01:19:33

How about this one? God is a righteous judge and a God who feels indignation every day. Man, you read some of these and you just go, okay, we need the full scope of God.

01:19:42

We really do, especially in this country and especially in Christianity. And look, I'm not trying to go

01:19:48

Jonathan Edwards on you and go fire and brimstone. No, you can totally do it. But we have to know the fullness, right?

01:19:54

Yeah. Like Jason says this all the time, like we have to know the fullness, like every aspect of them. And the more, and you know,

01:20:01

I had a discussion with someone online and it was like, dude, theology just means to know more about God. I just want to know more about him.

01:20:07

And I can go down rabbit holes and we go down crazy stuff, Jason, on the podcast. We totally do.

01:20:12

But at the same time, we want to know more. And I've noticed the closer I get to God, the more

01:20:18

I fear him and honor him. It's like I never get closer and go, oh, he's a really good buddy.

01:20:23

He is. Abraham was called a friend of God, right? Was it Abraham? Did I say that right?

01:20:29

Okay. And I get that, but at the same time, it's like, dude, there has to be a holy reverence there.

01:20:34

And I think that's why we need to take so important. Those, those six steps that are, was it six or eight?

01:20:40

Would we go six tonight? Yeah. Six steps that you brought up to like practical applications in our walk, because it is, this is like our salvation, like fear and trembling, like treated as such.

01:20:51

Yes. You know what I mean? Precisely. And these are six good steps to get us there. So do you have anything else as we finish up,

01:20:58

Josh or Jason? No, no, no. I, you guys are both looking at me now. I'm scared. Oh no.

01:21:07

No. Yeah. I, I, um, am just so thankful that the three of us could sit in this room and just glorify

01:21:16

God with conversation and just reading through the word and just, you know, kind of picking it apart and just trying to figure these things out and just get to another level,

01:21:25

I guess, you know what I mean? Like in our maturity, because none of us have arrived whatsoever, you know?

01:21:32

And, and I know that like, we do have some differences in this room and that's okay, man. And like, but you know what?

01:21:38

I know that I'm going to see both of you when we go into eternity, right? Like, I mean, it's yeah.

01:21:45

So it's, it's, I love this conversation and we've went a lot longer than we usually do, but I'm okay with it.

01:21:51

I think usually whenever I come on here, I wouldn't have to do that.

01:21:57

And that's okay. That's it's always awesome. Yeah. Always thankful to have my guys. Thanks so much for listening.

01:22:03

Uh, and we do appreciate all the comments and stuff on Facebook, Instagram, all those places. Uh, we just hit 1 .2

01:22:09

million downloads in the first 18 months or 16 months. So we appreciate that you guys are sharing it with your friends, you're sharing posts, you're doing all those things.

01:22:17

And we appreciate it because we just want to bring glory to God. I know we do. And we want to bring, uh, like we said last time, people on that, uh, we can talk about these things, have a conversation about God.

01:22:27

And like Jason just said, I mean, you really brought it home, Jason. Like you're just blessed that we are able to do that. There's people right now in other countries that could not do this.

01:22:35

They could not gather with two or three other brothers in the Lord in public and discuss these things.

01:22:40

So thank you, God. We, we do. We say that not with a cliche, but we say with a grateful heart that we're able to, to read through the word and study it and flip it over and, and, and, you know, chew on it and do all those things in this country.

01:22:52

And we're still able to, so guys, thanks so much as always. God bless. Take care. Be sure to follow us on Facebook and Instagram at dead men, walking podcast for full video podcast episodes and clips, or email us at dead men, walking podcast at gmail .com.