MSL: March 25, 2024

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The following program is recorded content created by The Truth Network. Matt Slick Live!

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Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at karm .org.

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When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers. Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877 -207 -2276.

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Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. You're listening to Matt Slick Live.

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Today's date, we are live today on Monday. Let's see, the 25th of March.

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Yeah, I was out Thursday, Friday, last week. Had a family emergency. You know, that happens sometimes. Had to take off.

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And everything worked out. All right, long story short. So, hey, look. If you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877 -207 -2276.

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And we can blab. If you are new, and you're not sure what this show is about... Okay, good.

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So, just checking on stuff. And so, if you're... Got a little sidetracked.

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That's all right. Okay. So, gave it a little bit of a late start, even on the radio.

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So, something happened. As I said, no big deal. All right, so if you're new to the show, I'm a Christian apologist.

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What that means is I defend the Christian faith. And so, I've written a lot of books. We did a calculation on how many articles

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I've written on the website, carm .org. I think we came up with 6 ,000.

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Been working on this site for 28 years. Just released another article today and working on another one.

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I'm going to try and schedule them every other day. And so, yeah, everything's fine.

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So, that's that. So, anyway, today's date for the podcasters is March 25th, 2024.

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And if you have a comment or a question, maybe you're a nonbeliever or you're not sure about Christianity, you want to talk about Christian theology, you want to talk about...

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Let's see, what can we talk about? Checking one more setting. And we should be good.

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We can talk about Christian theology, apologetics, which is the defense of the faith, Christian doctrine,

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Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian science, unity, Baha 'i, Islam, aliens, the occult, logic, evolution, science, philosophy.

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These are things I've studied over the years and have been doing it for a long, long time. 44 years

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I've been studying all this stuff, loving it. And it's what I enjoy doing. So, if you want to ask a question, you can.

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You can call up at 877 -207 -2276.

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And, or, if you don't want to call and you want to, let's see, you want to send an e -mail, you can do that by sending us an e -mail at info at CARM .org.

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Info at CARM .org. C -A -R... Oh, I got a yawn right there.

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Right there's a yawn. Anyway, C -A -R -M dot O -R -G, CARM .org. And just put in the subject line, put radio comment or radio question and we'll get to it.

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So, we'll put them in a folder. We'll get to them later when we get a little bit slow, which happens sometimes.

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So, the lines are filling up right now. Let's get into our first call here.

03:32

Gary from Utah. Gary, welcome. You are on the air. How are you doing,

03:38

Matt? Oh, I'm hanging in there. Hanging in there. Hey, listen. Yep, what do you got?

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I've got a, yes, I have a friend named Matt, just like you, Matt. Except he's not slick like you.

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Is he highly intelligent and also really handsome? Because, you know, I mean... Well, he's intelligent, but sometimes he's not the wisest tool in the box as far as biblical goes, because he's not saved.

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He's not born again. Okay, all right. So, I told him I was going to find some verses. I'm a born -again Christian myself, but I've taken him to church with me once.

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He wants to go back, which is good, but he doesn't believe that people can be possessed.

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Man, woman, it doesn't matter. I've shown him some cases, even some old footage on a video of the late, what was that lady's name?

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Anna Michelle or something like that, I think it was. It was some German lady that was possessed back in the 70s,

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I think. I don't know if you've ever seen that, but there's some video on it. And he doesn't believe that people can be possessed.

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And I've told him there's lots of places in the Bible, but I just need to find them. So, I'm going to go to Matt. You, Matt.

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Yeah, there are instances of demonic possession in the scriptures. But the thing

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I'm thinking is, well, do you need to work about that?

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I mean, if he wants to say that he doesn't believe it can happen, say, well, okay. The important thing is him coming to Christ, because once he becomes a

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Christian, if he really does, then it will open up. Then it will open up. So, yeah, and that's the thing.

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So, you know, Matthew 4 .24 says that Jesus was healing, you know, demoniacs, epileptics, and paralytics.

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So, here's the thing. Now, there's a psychological thing to think about. Let's say this guy absolutely says, no, it doesn't happen.

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If you try and show that it does, and he's not a believer, the thing I'm concerned about is it turning him off, because he'll become adamant.

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And say, no, no, no. So, I'd say, me, I'd go, well, you know, okay.

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And that's it, we're done. I just go on and say, well, Jesus died in the cross, rose from the dead.

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We want to get to that place with him and get him saved. And then the rest of it will fall in place later.

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That's what I would do. That's a good point. The only thing I could find out, I like the fact you gave me Matthew 4 .24.

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The only other one I could look at, unless you know some other spots. There's a lot of times I've got to cheat and go to Google.

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There's some times I know what areas to go to. But, you know, I'm still, as a born -again Christian, you're always learning. So, I'm just calling, okay.

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I found out the one that talks about where Jesus was talking to that person in the Bible. And, yes, he knows the answer, but the person said, we are, my name's

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Legion. We are many. So, that's the one I thought of right up front. And then I was thinking about the demons that wanted to get into the swine.

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They didn't want to go back to hell. Yes, that's Matthew 8. Matthew 8 .28. I'm looking at the references.

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Matthew 8 .28 through 34. Matthew 8, starting at verse 28.

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All right. And the Legion is, oh, we are Legion. Let's see.

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My name is Legion. That's Mark 5 .9. Okay. Mark 5 .9. I'm taking these down.

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Mark 5 .9. That's right. And 5 .15. 5 .15.

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And Luke 8 .30 is a parallel of Mark there. What's your name? Luke 8 .30. Yeah, Luke 8 .30.

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So, those are just references. But, you know, just feel the guy out because the most important thing is his relationship with Christ.

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He needs to get saved. So, just preach that gospel. I know. And if he says he doesn't believe that demons can happen,

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I say, okay, because that's his worldview. So, I'm not going to worry about his worldview at the moment. I'm going to worry about his relationship with Christ.

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Let the worldview change later. That's good. I like that. He asked me for the phone number.

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So, he just texted me because I guess he's listening. I told him I'm on the radio live right now. So, he texted me. And I might have to shoot him the number.

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And I know how you are. You'd say, have him call me. Have him call me. Matt, how are you doing, Matt? Have fun. Yeah, no problem.

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It'll all be nice. It'll be good. I know. I like hearing you because you have a lot of knowledge on these things.

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And a lot of times, I mean, in the right way and in a nice way, unless it gets to that other point, you're pretty good about, you know, picking people apart in a nice way.

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But the only time it gets the other way is if you have to, you know. Yeah. You know, I try and show people their errors, what

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I think are their errors in thinking logic and position and things like that. And if I'm right, let it stand.

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If I'm wrong, you know, hopefully it'll fall. Okay. All right.

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I will send him your number in case he does get through today on the live call show. Sure. And we'll see what happens.

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I'll keep praying for him, too. All right, man. Sounds good, buddy. Well, thank you, Matt. Okay. All right.

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Talk to you later. All right. Thank you. Okay. God bless. All right. That's good. Hopefully he'll call.

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It'll be an interesting conversation. Let's get to Bobby from North Carolina. Bobby, welcome. You are on the air.

08:44

Hey, Matt. I've been listening to you for a good while. Really enjoy your program.

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I've been to your website also. Enjoy some of the articles. Anyway, I myself have been, so to speak,

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I guess, mulling over the whole, you know, election predestination and those that are called are called by God.

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Knowing those that are saved, you know, the elect are elect because God had chosen them.

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And it's been a difficult, you know, thing for me to grasp that whole thing. And I've listened to you a lot on that.

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I also found Leighton Flowers on the Internet. I'm not sure.

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Are you aware of him? Yeah, I know Leighton. Uh -huh. We've talked before. I have his cell number. Yep. Uh -huh.

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Okay. And I've listened to him, and he's in the opposite camp.

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Mm -hmm. Where you're at. Am I right in that? Yeah, I just read it. He just finished his book over the weekend.

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Uh -huh. Reading it, yeah. Okay. Mm -hmm. And so, you know, I've listened to a lot of his arguments in some of his debates.

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You know, and he said that he was reformed, you know, for 10,

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I think, 15 years. Okay. I'm calling you to, like, just get your take on his arguments.

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I mean, they're in his reading of the Scriptures. He makes very good points that I feel are very valid points.

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Do you have one of the issues? Is there something you want me to address specifically? No, not really specifically because, you know,

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I hadn't really had a chance to think specifically. I'm sorry. When I called, it was kind of on a whim. I just happened to catch you as I'm on my way home.

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Okay. Well, let me say this. I'm going to probably end up talking to him, but I just finished his book,

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Provisionism, and he made a lot of illustrations, and, you know, he's a good communicator, but he failed in a very serious theological area of federal headship and failed to understand it.

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If he says he was reformed before, I'm surprised that in his book he didn't mention it once.

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Now, it's certainly possible I just missed it, but I read the whole book. It's well highlighted, but federal headship is a very necessary theological perspective, and he also denies, to some extent, original sin, which is problematic, and he actually mentioned me in his book twice, and so we had a conversation a long time ago where I called him a semi -Pelagian.

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He said he's not a semi -Pelagian. Well, okay, a long time ago. That was maybe 10, 15 years ago.

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I don't know, and so the things he's saying sound like it. So what I could do sometime is actually interview him and get very specific questions, not debate him, but, okay, what do you think about this?

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What do you think of that? And get very, very detailed answers. That's what I'd like to do with him. I could probably arrange that.

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So when I watched his debate with James White, let's just say that James stuck to the text and Leighton did not, and though Leighton addressed some of the stuff in the text, it was

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James White who really stuck with the text a lot, which I think is really important.

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So this issue of election, okay, you want to talk about it? We've got a break coming up in a minute, but we can talk about election from what

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I understand is his perspective and what I believe is the biblical one because I think they're different.

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That's my opinion, but if you want, we can talk about that. You tell me what you want to do.

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Well, I would raise this one point that is what bothered me the most, is that if God does the saving at the beginning, like he chooses whom he will save, and those that he doesn't save, by default he has chosen those to be damned.

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I don't see that there's any other way around that because if he does all the choosing beforehand, then no one is actually saved before their beginning.

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No, we wouldn't say they're saved. No, we wouldn't say they're saved. No, we wouldn't say they're saved. We would say they're elected, but not saved.

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Not a state of salvation. Okay, I can understand that. Elected. Okay, now hold on, we've got a break, okay?

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We've got a break, so hold on. It's good stuff, you know, it's good stuff you're asking, okay? And I'm going to challenge you to a little something, just a little bit, politely, and then we'll get to some scriptures, okay?

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So hold on, buddy. Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages, and hopefully you want to continue to listen.

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Maybe it'll be interesting. I think it already is. We'll be right back. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

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Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone, welcome back to the show. As soon as Bobby's activated again, we'll get back on the air with him, and then we can continue discussing this interesting topic.

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Okay, Bobby, you on? Yes, I'm here. All right.

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Okay, so go ahead. Can I ask you one question, and we can go from there? Sure, no problem.

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Okay, so how can, because I've heard you before, and I can't go into it, you know, and to lead up to it, because, like I said,

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I called you on a whim. That's all right. So I know that, like, Reformed would say that those that are non -elect are still accountable for their damnation.

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And my question would be, how can the non -elect be accountable if they weren't elected?

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Isn't that God determined them to be that way? Sure. Well, it's not like that.

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Like I said, Dr. Flowers, Leighton Flowers, failed, at least from what

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I've studied in his book, failed to understand the doctrine of federal headship. So let me go through it quickly.

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Federal headship is the teaching that the male, not the female, represents the descendants.

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Adam and Eve were in the garden. She sinned first. She gave the fruit to Adam. He ate.

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Sin entered the world through one man, Adam, Romans 5 .12, even though she sinned first and she was in the world.

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He's the representative. In 1 Corinthians 15 .22, in Adam all die. In Romans 5 .18,

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through one transgression, there resulted condemnation to all men. Romans 5 .19, through one transgression, the many were made sinners.

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So what this is talking about here is male representation. All right? All right.

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Now, when Adam sinned, he represented people. Now, if you don't like that,

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I mean, you know, sorry, but that's biblical. Okay? Because it says in Romans 5 .19,

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it says that through his transgression, the many were made sinners. And that's an aorist passive indicative.

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And what that means in Greek is that through a man's disobedience, the many were made sinners.

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They were made. Something happened to them by somebody else that made them sinners. That's exactly what

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Romans 5 .19 is teaching. Now, sometimes I'll say jokingly to people, if you don't like certain doctrines,

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I can tell you which ones they are and where they're found in Scripture. You can take a highlighter or, you know, a blackout marker and you can mark them out.

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I'm not saying you can do that. I'm just saying because there's a lot of things in Scripture that we don't like because we're humanists.

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What that means is we have a human sensibility. This is something I think Leighton was a little guilty of, and I am too, but the idea of judging truth based upon what we think is reasonable.

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So let me back up a second. I'll show you something. So he said, if God chooses who will be saved, then those by default he's chosen to be damned.

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So let me ask you a question here. Is that true or false or good or bad or right or wrong? What do you think?

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That statement. I'm going to show you something. What do you think? Okay. If that is true, then it's absolutely good because God is good, and whatever he does is 100 % correct.

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Good for you. I'm with it. Good for you. I'm really impressed. I didn't expect you to say that, to be honest, and I'm impressed that you did say that, and you're right.

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If God does that, then that's what's right. What happens, a lot of times people say, well, that's not fair. Okay. If it's not fair, then please show me where you're getting the universal standard of fairness by which you apply this issue.

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And so you did very well, and praise God, man. Praise God. All right. So if God does it, then that's just the way it is.

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We've got to adjust our theology. Now, back to this issue then. Those who are not elect are still accountable.

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Yes, they're accountable. Because let me give you an illustration of something. And I got this out of Burkoff.

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Not Burkoff. I think it was Lorraine Bettner's book. I'm trying to remember.

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Give credit where it's due. But let's say there's a prison, and there's 1 ,000 people in it, 1 ,000 men.

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And they're all absolutely guilty of their own sin, their own rebellion. They did it.

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No one forced them. No one chose, made them do it. They did it all themselves, 1 ,000 men in this prison.

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Okay. They're all guilty, just the way it is. But you and I, hey, we're pretty rich.

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We're pretty powerful. We're pretty compassionate. And so what you and I decide to do is go deliver some of these men out of that prison.

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And on the way, in our private jet, we're talking about how many out of the 1 ,000 we want to go, want to do.

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And just to say it, I'm going to say, well, I want to do 50. And you say, I want to do 200. I want to save 200.

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Forever numbers. Okay. It's our decision, right? So we compromise. We're going to save 100.

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So, okay, let's do 100, because it's going to take a lot of money, a lot of work. Can't do everybody, let's just say, because it's just you and me.

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So what we do is we go through, we interview a bunch of guys, and we decide which ones we like, and we save them.

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We pay their debt. They get freed. Now, the other ones weren't chosen to be set free, but they're still responsible for their sin, aren't they?

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Right? Right. Just because you and I set some free doesn't mean the others have no responsibility or culpability.

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That's just how that works. So to say they who weren't not elected, why are they still accountable?

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Because they still sinned. Because they are guilty. Because they did it. The mercy of God is to save any.

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That's the miracle. To save any at all. Sorry, let me interrupt.

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That would make me ask two questions. One would be, in that analogy, we're different than God, but in that analogy,

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God would have foreknowledge. Okay, now we have to talk about that. You've got to talk about what foreknowledge is, because there's a lot of mistakes about it.

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So let me back up and give you an illustration to explain how foreknowledge works, theologically and logically.

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Can I ask you a question first? Sure. To make sure I'm correct? Sure. Okay, so you would say, you know,

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I've heard James widen yourself too. You would say that they were elect from the foundation of the world, meaning it's predetermined before.

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Yes, it is. Before anyone was even created. Of course.

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Of course. And I'll show you why that is necessarily the case. It's necessarily.

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It has to be the case. It can't be any other way. I'll show you why, okay? You ready?

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You there? Yeah, I have a follow -up question. Okay. Yeah, I'm here. Okay, here's another illustration. There's a blank piece of paper on your desk.

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Blank. No lines. It's white. It's just, there's nothing there. And that represents nothingness.

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Put a dot in the very middle of that paper. That's God. The white means nothing else exists.

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So what you can do is take a pencil and you can just draw a squiggly line from that dot out to the edge.

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You could draw 50 of these lines. Squiggly, different directions, different kind of shapes, loops, whatever you want to do.

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And they all go to the edge. What this represents is, in pencil here, represents potential existences of the world of the universe.

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Okay? Potentials that God would create. Because they're all in God's mind beforehand, aren't they? Right? Right.

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Right. Okay. And so they're in pencil because, well, they're not inked yet for permanence, let's just say.

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Now, you and I could take that piece of paper. We could take any one of them. God could do this. He could take any one of those squiggly lines and he could zoom in on it.

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And you and I are talking. And it can only be that you and I are talking because God's allowed that to happen.

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It's not like we're doing something God doesn't want, you know, and we're sneaking behind his back. We're underneath that line or to the left of it.

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And God goes, oh, I didn't see that. It doesn't work like that. Because the only way we could do that is if God has arranged for it to occur, because it can't occur outside of his knowledge or the potentiality in that line.

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So hold on. We'll be right back. I'll continue with this. Hey, folks. Be right back after these messages. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

23:01

Here's Matt Slick. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Hey, Bobby, you still there?

23:08

Yes, sir. All right. Now, we need to go back. Let me try it in English this time.

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Let's try to do this again. So within God's work, he wills us, desires us not to lie, for example.

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But he desires to let us lie. OK? He doesn't want us to sin.

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OK. But he desires to let us sin. Both of those are within his will. So are you with me so far?

23:38

No problem? No problem. OK. So we have free will in that we can do whatever we desire to do.

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So on that squiggly line, you and I are having a conversation. I don't even know where it's going to go.

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But God does. Well, why? Because nothing that occurs can occur by chance.

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Otherwise, God's not sovereign. Nothing that occurs can't mean before God that he doesn't know our free will choices.

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Because then that would mean our free will choices are independent from him. That's not possible. And people say, well, if he knows our free will choices, we're not free to make a different choice.

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That's illogical to say that. Because we're the one making the choice. I would agree with you on that.

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I would agree with you that he can know. He can know. And that doesn't determine our free will.

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I agree that we can have free will. And he can know it all. Okay, good. The problem, not the problem, but a concern that I have would be this.

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And R .C. Sproul had a sermon one time in reference to what he called, the sermon was, there can be no one rogue molecule in the universe.

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Right, that's correct. Or in everything. There could be not even one rogue molecule.

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Or God is not sovereign. That's correct. And I would agree with that. To the exception of mankind.

25:04

Hold on. Let's get to this. No, no, no, no, you've got to be careful.

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Yeah, this humanist philosophy is creeping in now. Okay. No, no, no, no. Let me finish what

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I'm saying first, if you don't mind. Sure. So I believe that when

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God made man free, it doesn't call his sovereignty into question at all that man can be totally free to choose him or not.

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And he can still be sovereign. He doesn't have to do the choosing for us.

25:45

Okay, we're getting into several topics here. So I wanted to finish up with foreknowledge, though, okay?

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Okay. I get into this other question you just asked, okay? Okay. All right, so foreknowledge.

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The reason God has foreknowledge is because he's ordained what service shall come to pass.

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The ordination does not always mean direct causation, but it can mean indirect permission.

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Because nothing can occur that's outside of God's sovereignty. Because Ephesians 1 .11

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says he works all things after the counsel of his will. That's what it says. On that squiggly line in the paper, every detail is known by God.

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Because he knows all things. He knows all things. So it can't be that he doesn't know what we're going to do.

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Because to say that he doesn't know would be to say that God is limited by time, and then we'd get into the heresy of open theism.

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Or to say that our thoughts are independent, our free will is independent. Okay, good. All right, so now what we see...

26:48

That's right. But the reason is why? Is it because he knows what we're going to do, so to speak?

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If he just simply knows our choices ahead of time, does he then look to the future to see what we're going to do because he relates to time differently and then gains knowledge that way?

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If that's the case, that's a heresy. Because it would imply that God learns by seeing what we're going to do in different situations.

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And that's very bad. That's very bad. But people haven't thought these things through, in my opinion, very well.

27:22

Let me show you. So you brought this word foreknowledge, right? So 1 Peter 1 .20 says that he, that's

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Jesus, was foreknown before the foundation of the world. Ah, interesting. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world.

27:36

In Romans 8 .29 it says, For those whom he foreknew, he also predestined.

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They're the same group. The foreknown ones are the same group.

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They're the predestined ones. That's from Romans 8 .29. For those whom he foreknew, he also predestined.

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Now, what I'm trying to show people is that God uses words differently than we do. Well, no, foreknowledge means he knows what's going to happen in the future.

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Really? Those whom he foreknew, he also predestined. You want to back that one up again, I say to them, and you want to redefine it?

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Because they're not used to having their definition subjected to scriptural revelation a lot of times.

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Check this one out. Romans 11 .2, God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.

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Or do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah and that he has his own people? And I already read 1

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Peter 1 .20. So these are the issues of what it means to be foreknown in relationship to God.

28:36

Now check this out. Okay, so can I ask you a question? Sure. Okay. Okay. So then couldn't

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God, well, can God still be sovereign if man has free will to choose him?

28:58

Well, there's a yes and a no. There's a yes and a no. Okay. Because the question that has to be answered first is, can an unbeliever freely choose

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God? That's the question. See, there's questions I want to ask Leighton. Why does one person believe and another one does not?

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That's a question. I haven't seen him answer or anyone ask him yet. Why does one believe? Well, just the free will.

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What about one person's free will that enables them to believe and another one does not? Why? See, I can quote you the references, but I'll skip the references.

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But the Bible says the unbeliever is a slave of sin, a hater of God, does not seek for God, does not know the things of God, cannot receive the things of God, is full of evil and wickedness.

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So how does he just freely choose God when it says he cannot receive spiritual things? Cannot. 1

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Corinthians 2 .14. His heart is desperately wicked and deceitful. Cannot be trusted. Jeremiah 17 .9.

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He's a slave of sin. Romans 6 .14 -20. Does not seek for God. Does no good.

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Romans 3 .10 .11 -12. Is by nature a child of wrath. Ephesians 2 .3.

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How does someone like that just choose God? The Bible says they can't. Whether people like it or not.

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And if it's the case that they're enslaved to sin, can't choose God of their own free will, they're still free. We have to define what free will is.

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But if they're still free, they're free to choose according to what they are. They're enslaved to sin.

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They're still free. They can do what they want. But they're only going to choose sinful things.

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Which is why Jesus says, you cannot come to me unless it's granted to you from the

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Father. John 6 .65. He didn't say, you can come to me if you strain a lot, you understand, and if you receive my things, then you can come to me.

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He never says that. You can't come to me unless it's granted to you by the

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Father. That's what he says. Doesn't that beg the question, though, how your view in that statement that the elect are already made special?

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They couldn't be. No, they're not. No, they're not. No, they're not. No, no, no. We don't say they're made special.

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No, we don't say that, though. We don't say they're made special. Go ahead. Well, then they wouldn't be slaved to sin type sinners as the others.

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If we're all sinners the same, they couldn't be slaves to sin because then they would not be able to come to God.

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No, because... Which means they are special people because of that. No, that's not it.

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They're not special because of that. Any more than the people that you and I chose out of that prison are special in their nature.

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They're not. We simply arranged it that they were able to come out. That's what it...

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Just think of that analogy. They're not special. It's not showing favoritism.

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It's another thing that Leighton, in my opinion, blew it in his book. He didn't show what the biblical definition of favoritism is.

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The biblical definition is to see something that a person possesses or has, a quality they have or possesses, and then

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God chooses them based on that. So if some person is able to freely choose

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God and God chooses them because of that, then God is showing favoritism based on a good thing in them.

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And this is a problem. It's a huge problem. Wouldn't the good thing in them be that they aren't the slaves to sin that the other sinners are that cannot choose

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God? They're all... Everybody's a slave to sin. Just like that prison, everybody was a sinner.

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Everybody has their sinful nature. Everybody. So what we would say is that God regenerates people.

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He changes them. He causes them to be born again, 1 Peter 1 .3. They're born again, not of their own will,

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John 1 .13. He grants that they have faith, Philippians 1 .29. Grants that they have repentance, 2

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Timothy 2 .25. And he grants that we come to Christ, John 6 .65. I'm giving you scripture.

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See, people want... Let's talk about free will. People think that free will means it necessitates that you have to be able to have a choice between good and bad.

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You can do good and bad. You can choose either one. And without that, it's not free will. Well, that's faulty.

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Because God Himself can't have free will by that definition. Because God cannot choose to sin.

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He is restricted by His own nature to do that which is holy. And therefore, free will must be defined in this manner.

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Free will is the ability to make a choice that's consistent with your nature, that's not forced on you. The unbelievers' nature is fallen.

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They will always freely choose to reject God. Which is why God has to grant that they have faith.

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Philippians 1 .29. And grant they come to Christ, John 6 .65. Because they're elected by God.

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That's Ephesians 1 .4. We'll be right back after these messages. Hold on, buddy. It's Matt Slick Live!

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Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

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All right, welcome back to the show. Bobby, are you still there, buddy? Yes, sir. All right.

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So, that's what free will is. I've got two questions. Okay, go ahead. Okay, so with that, I'd like to ask two questions.

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Sure. So, if God granted those the faith. Who have faith.

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Who have the faith and become the elect. No, they don't become the elect because of that. I'm sorry?

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They don't become the elect because God grants them faith. He grants them faith because they already were elect.

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Because they are the elect. Okay, so then the non -elect aren't granted the ability to have that faith.

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The ability to have that faith is then withheld by God, which makes me ask the question, then how can someone be accountable for their sin if God made them that way?

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They were determined by God to be damned because they were not determined by God to be elected.

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Okay, let me answer. And that calls the character of God into question. No, it does not.

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No, it does not. The reason that we're saved is because Jesus represented us.

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He bore our sin in His body on the cross. Are you in agreement with that? Yes.

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In Romans 6 .6 it says we were crucified with Christ. Romans 6 .8 says we died with Christ.

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I mean, Colossians 3 .3 says we died with Christ. So when it says we're crucified with Christ, when was

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He crucified? Was it 2 ,000 years ago? Was it 2 ,000 years ago?

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When Jesus was crucified on the cross? Yes, yes, 2 ,000 years ago. Yet it says we were crucified with Christ.

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How can we be crucified with Christ 2 ,000 years ago? How's that possible?

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This is a question Leighton doesn't answer. It's a question that these guys don't answer. They never come across this.

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They never answer this. They never think about it. It's because of federal headship, because Christ represented His people.

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We died with Him. Who's the ones who died with Him? Who are the ones who are crucified with Christ? Was it the unbelievers who were crucified with Christ?

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Were those in hell, were they crucified with Christ? They died to themselves. Those who put their faith in Him. And why do people put their faith in Him?

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Because God grants that they have faith. Because God grants that they have faith.

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Philippians 1 .29, to you it has been granted to believe. This is the work of God that you believe.

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What about those who did not grant faith? Hold on. Jesus says in John 6 .29, this is the work of God that you believe on whom

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He has sent. So who, who, who? So people say, well, it's my free will that I believe in Jesus.

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Then why does Jesus say it's the work of God that you believe on whom He has sent? Right, because He granted us the ability to have faith.

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Knowing that all men are without excuse. I mean,

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General Revelate and... Okay, hold on. You're changing the word of God.

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Okay, hold on a sec. Hold on. You're doing what Leighton did when he had a phone call with me.

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We were talking once. And I quoted him Philippians 1 .29. It says, to you it has been granted to believe. And he said, no,

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He granted you the opportunity to believe. That's not what God's inspired

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Holy Word said. He changed it to make it fit

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His desires. The Bible says God grants that we believe.

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Jesus says this is the work of God that you believe on whom He has sent. So if someone believes in Christ, why is that the case?

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Why is it the case? I'm sorry. If someone believes in Christ, why is it the case that they believe in Christ?

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Let me quote you the verses again. Philippians 1 .29. To you it has been granted to... Because God grants it to them.

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Does God have the right to grant it to whoever He wants? Oh, He definitely has the right.

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I would agree that He has the right. Good. I'm going to read you some scriptures. Proverbs 16 .4.

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The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil. Okay?

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Right. I agree. I agree with that, too. Good. So then you agree, then, that God makes even the wicked people for their destruction, for the day of evil.

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Right? Right. He determines them from the beginning to be damned.

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There you go. Okay. That's where I think it calls into question the character of God.

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Well, here's a big question I've got to ask you. Where do you get this idea of questioning

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God's character when I read you scripture and you don't like it? You have to think about what you're doing. You're saying, this calls in the character of God.

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Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. What you're saying is there's a standard of morality that you're in touch with that you're going to apply to God.

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And now he's in question now. You see how dangerous that is with man -centered...

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No, my only question is... This is what happens with Latinism. Latinism, okay? No, my only question is then how can...

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Okay, even if it's that way, I'm not calling God's character into question if that's how it is.

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My question is, it doesn't seem to be in line with the character of God that we know from the

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Bible that... Sure it does. Sure it does. ...someone that would not grant faith to the lead can still be accountable for their sins if God treats them that way.

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Because I find it. The Lord explained why they're still accountable. They freely chose to sin.

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They freely chose to rebel. They freely chose to do that which is evil before God.

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No one's forcing them. God doesn't make them do it. Therefore they are responsible for their own sin.

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But God is the one who grants individuals to be saved. He's the one who does that.

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You've got to change your theology and get out underneath from Latinism. It's latent problems.

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Now, here's another set of scriptures. Romans 9, 22 -23. What if God, although willing to demonstrate

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His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience, vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy which

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He prepared beforehand for glory? You see, look,

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I know about these verses. God wants all to be saved. You can go to 2 Peter 3, 9 and 1

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Timothy 2, 4. When I read his book, he didn't go into the depth of what's going on.

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Let me show you something, okay? I'll show you. Can you answer that question then? What does that mean that God desires all men to be saved?

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It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. He requires for them to be saved.

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Okay. Here you go. You're making a mistake in that you assume you know what the word all means.

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So let me ask you, who was Jesus sent to? Was He sent to every individual who ever lived? Was He?

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No. Matthew 15, 24,

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Jesus says, I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Was Jesus sent to the whole world?

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When Jesus in Matthew 15, 24 says, I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, was

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He sent to the whole world? Was He? Well, according to that particular verse there, in context,

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I mean, that's who He sent. That's who He went to to deliver His message to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

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Nope. No, He didn't deliver His message to them. He says, this is a Seraphim woman.

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Jesus went away to a district. A Canaanite woman came up. Daughters cruelly possessed.

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And He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came imploring Him, saying, send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.

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But He answered and said, I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And she came and began to bow down before Him, saying,

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Lord, help me. He wasn't sent to the Syrophoenicians. He wasn't sent to the

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Egyptians. He was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Because covenantally, the

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Messiah was for Israel. Israel rejected the Messiah and broke the covenant. Therefore, we were grafted in.

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That's why it says we're grafted into the vine. That's why it says He's the propitiation only for our sins, but sins of the whole world.

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And you've got to understand something. Propitiation. Halasmos in the Greek. This is out of 1 John 2. He's the propitiation not only for our sins, but the sins of the whole world.

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Propitiation means a sacrifice that removes wrath. It doesn't make it possible dependent on something else.

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It actually makes it real by the offering. It's accomplished. The wrath is removed.

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And He's the propitiation not only for our sins, but the sins of the whole world. What's the whole world mean?

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All the people groups. All the nation groups. God so loved the world. People say in John 3 .16,

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God so loved the world. That word world means every individual. Really does it? No, it doesn't. It means all the people groups.

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It means He provided a way for all who would come. But the only ones who come are the ones who are granted to come to Christ.

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John 6 .65. Who have been elected from the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1 .4.

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Who were granted repentance. 2 Timothy 2 .25. You've got to think about something here.

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Which view of God. I'm not answering the question of how someone can be accountable.

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If God made them. He withheld faith from them.

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I answered you a hundred times already. I answered you already. They're accountable.

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They're accountable because they freely chose to sin. They are responsible for their own sin.

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That's the answer. Don't make the mistake. That somehow if God doesn't grant them faith.

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That means they're not responsible for their own sin. What? It makes no sense.

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Because I know that the provisionists. The latinists. Want to say this kind of a thing.

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They want to say. Well look. If God doesn't provide you a way out. Then you can't be responsible for your own sin.

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What? It's like the prison analogy. If you don't go save those other 900 people in there.

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Oh that means they weren't responsible for their sin. It makes no sense. Look I got to tell you buddy.

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You're not thinking critically. The only thing is. By your. How you've explained it to me.

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It makes those that were granted faith. Special prior to regeneration.

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They were special before. Yeah they were special because they were granted faith.

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And others were not. That makes them special. They're not special in themselves. They are loved ahead of time.

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And elected because of God. By God. Because of. They're loved ahead of time. And chosen by God ahead of time.

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Look at that squiggly line on the piece of paper. How much of it do you think. He doesn't know. How much do you think he's not in control of.

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Let me tell you something. Latinism what it does is. It reduces the majesty and sovereignty and power.

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And knowledge and control of God. How does it do that? It does. Because it elevates human free will.

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Because it elevates human free will. And then asks the question. Well if he doesn't give you a way out.

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Then how can you be responsible? It fails to understand federal headship. It fails to understand what

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Christ actually did. They were crucified with Christ. Romans 6 .6. Which can only be by representation.

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Which had to happen beforehand. God doesn't choose us because of how good we are. In our wisdom to choose him.

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And then he elects us because of that. That's favoritism. And that denies indirectly the aseity of God.

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We can get into this Romans at a time. So I've thought about this. I've debated this.

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I think God is still sovereign enough. To allow man to be free.

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To choose. And by man having that ability to choose. God can still be sovereign.

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Because nothing could happen. That he still couldn't be in control of. Bobby. You made the mistake of thinking.

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That an unbeliever is not a slave of sin. And can receive spiritual things.

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You actually contradict scripture. When you do that. Hey look man. We're out of time. I appreciate the conversation. But call back tomorrow.

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You know we can talk some more. Okay. Alright buddy. Alright man. Good talking to you too. Okay folks.

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That is biblical apologetics theology. Latentism. Alright.