Cultish: Bob Lazar & Alien Spacecraft

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Welcome ladies and gentlemen back to part two of cultish entering the kingdom of the cults we're talking about Bob Lazar and the

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UFO phenomenon and Obviously we're talking about cultish but we have some guests with us today in part two that hopefully were there if you listen to part one and Good morning good afternoon evening wherever you are

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This is not another episode of sheologians, we're here again today to put the her and Mulder in Mulder Why did

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I not see that coming I tried to rewatch the X -Files and It's not great of a show like it's kind of boring.

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It's really intense I think maybe and I don't care about the characters. Yeah, and also

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I don't care It seems like it should be so interesting, but yeah, but it was one of those shows where I think how many seasons that even

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Go for well, and it just had a huge That's right, but the she and light speed

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I There are in hyper space We're gonna put the her in interdimensional

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You can we could do this all day So what I'm super excited for it everyone's been waiting for this is

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We're gonna talk about Bob Lazar and so there's a lot of difference

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I mean, we just well, I just watched the documentary. I believe it's called Bob Lazar in year 51 Or something like that.

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I just look it up on I look up on iTunes You can see that you run the documentary came out recently in the last year. Make sure you have your subtitles on.

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Yeah Make sure you have your subtitles on a Mickey Rourke is doing the narration because I could not my wife came in She was like what what is he saying?

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Sounded it sounded like he just woke up like after like a long DMT trip

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DM Drunken weekend Cigarettes was definitely involved

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Just But Jeff's like what

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Tell me about like why I mean you were talking with your brother and you want you were trying to like witness to him

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But he is really into aliens and all these different things But what talk about like what was it about Bob Lazar and his particular story angle that caught your attention?

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So the the story of Bob Lazar is interesting because it's a well -known story And Everyone has access to like the original news footage stuff where Bob Lazar came out

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And he said for his own safety and protection he came out to put his face out there so they couldn't you know off him

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That kind of thing and so Bob Lazar is an interesting case study in this whole area of ufology because Bob Lazar Does have confirmed connections to working at area 51?

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There are ways you can demonstrate that he was probably most likely there That and and so before people are like area 51.

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Is that even real bro? And then like now it's like well, of course area 51 was real and it what was a nature of area 51

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Was it a place that you know was engaging in alien technology, right? Or is it simply a military test site near other military bases in Nevada, which happens to have a lot of open space

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Yes You know that sort of a thing but he's an interesting case study because I think there's elements to his work there

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Where you can say yeah, it seems pretty obvious that the government was trying to erase his connection to area 51

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I think that that's a good Explanation as to why stuff was disappearing on Lazar and his connection area 51, but then there are other

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I think logical Explanations as to why the government may have tried to disconnect themselves from Bob Lazar if it's a top -secret

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Classified military installation and he's going around telling everybody about it and they're trying to keep it top -secret

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You know, maybe they want Bob Lazar to look like a you know, a moron an idiot and a crazy person but but at any rate so Bob Lazar's Explanation is that he worked at area 51.

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He says there was 10 or 9 9 or 10 spacecraft at area 51 in a place called s4 extraterrestrial, you know spacecrafts of Extraterrestrial origin that were at this base that he was working on on a regular basis

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There was he wasn't working on all of them. He was working on I think one in particular Yeah, I think it was to was it to he was working on the propulsion systems of I mean,

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I know of one ship, but I forget the exact number of some sort of spacecraft and he came out in 1989 and said

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This and it was this huge Phenomenon, my husband was born and raised in Las Vegas and he like knew the whole story just by virtue of Being from Las Vegas.

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Everybody knows the guy who covered the story I can't even remember his name now George George George Knapp like everybody in Vegas is like Oh George Knapp And this was like the

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VHS is of him going on the Las Vegas You know news where you could buy him as far as Japan people were showing him in theater

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So when he came out as this whistleblower of this is what's happening at area 51 It was this huge cultural phenomenon and particularly in Las Vegas because area 51 is just north of Las Vegas Everybody knows all the kids grew up watching this on the news and it was this huge huge thing

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Just for the people don't know who Bob Lazar is because I didn't until I watched the documentary Yeah, and even like now because of like what

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Bob Lazar did with like really bringing area 51 to the forefront It's become this area of like pop culture.

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I mean, I remember The I remember the act the arcade game came the arcade game out like area 51

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And I would like play that with my friends and then you obviously you had Independence Day, which they're they made the joke about area 51 and they end up there and yeah

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Just aliens and it's just taken for granted and I went to there's a atomic testing bomb

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Natural museum and when you come in Las Vegas when you come out of it, it's all just area 51 alien

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Merch that you can buy you can buy a huge Industry and it really did happen because of Bob Lazar and so when

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I was thinking through like I think I would be Knee -jerk one of those

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Christians that would be like, why are you guys bothering to talk about this? Like why why are you taking the time to do it?

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But just in between recording these two episodes. I had a friend Message me and say I'm really glad you guys are talking about this because I have so many family members and they are in Las Vegas Regardless I have so many family members who are huge fans of Joe Rogan who are really into all the alien stuff

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And I just don't know how to talk to them about it. Like I don't even know what to say So I'm glad that you guys are talking about it

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I think as Christians a lot of times we can just kind of write these things off and be like well look at these crazies

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This is nuts but then It when it becomes personal to us like oh all of a sudden

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I have people in my life like you were saying your brother like I need to be able to Talk to them about this and I can't just be dismissive.

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Well, it's an interesting part of the alien conversation obviously in the last episode we talked more about like the

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New Age involvement and actual interaction with Beings that people say are aliens, right?

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But then there's another side of the alien conversation, which is Encounters with UFOs and not any specific being at all just seeing ships or hearing stories about alien

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Aircraft existing And things like that and so it would it just I mean even

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Jeff you you talked about Not wanting to leave that out of the conversation just because it didn't involve

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Like directly communicating with aliens. It's still a part of the conversation Which is that sometimes people look up and they see lights in the sky and sometimes they see aircraft allegedly that does

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Weird things that our aircraft can't do and so it would we'd be like It would be like sort of ignoring

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Sort of fundamental part of the conversation to say we're not going to talk about the aircraft

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We're only going to talk about people getting abducted or people coming into direct contact with aliens yeah, and it's good to even talk about the sightings and the encounters with aircraft because Bob he claimed to Hear about like he read an old document encounters of Experiences or encounters with entities, but he claimed to have only worked with the spacecraft but what's important even to deal with like someone like Bob Lazar is because even though Bob's focus was primarily the aircraft the aircraft, but then the then the occultic practices of Contact these entities they go part and parcel with each other

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They always that you can't have really one without one always leads to the other typically in a lot of these cases But um, yeah,

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I was going to ask Yeah, so I thought it was interesting the documentary. He went under hypnosis.

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Yes, and That's also how that's how a lot of people remember stuff about their alien encounters.

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Yeah through hypnosis I just had a friend talking to me the other day about Hypnosis is becoming a very popular thing to do in birthing.

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They call it hypno birthing and so I had a Christian friend who was talking about how she

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Encouraged to practice hypno birthing and as she was doing it She was overtaken by these horrible nightmares and she had to stop practicing for that because hypnosis is a pagan practice, so it shouldn't be surprising that People who are under the influence of hypnosis report similar pagan scary

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Interdimensional things so I thought it was interesting that in the Bob Lazar documentary. Yeah He you know

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He claimed that he couldn't remember all these things and so he tried hypnosis and he comes out of hypnosis and all of a sudden

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He has all this information kind of like we were talking about In the last episode, so I thought you're saying they lead into each other

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Well in the documentary you see that happen you see it lead into into that and here's what's crazy too is that that caught my attention too because there's a lot of There's been a lot of controversy with hypnosis and different areas of mental health and specifically if you look at Just the nature and science of memory what it actually is.

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And so at some time in cultists We're going to talk about there's a big controversy It happened really big in the field of psychology the act of the aspect of repressed memories

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Where people will either get sexually abused or something horrible happens to them and allegedly they bury that within their consciousness but one of the things is that this in the practice of recover memory therapy is that they'll a lot of times put people in Hypnosis and they'll give them sodium amytalt and that will put them in a suggestible state

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And they will end the therapist a lot of times and I talk with a guy on the phone who lives here in Arizona Who's to practice this and so he'll try and allegedly guide them through what he thinks

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Is this something horrible that happened in your into your past? But what people don't realize that the scientific nature of memory, it's not a photo

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It's not a video recorder. Is that the scientific nature of memory is constructive and Reconstructive and the fact that anytime you're in a suggestible state

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Someone even with the best of intentions can put a leading idea or a thought

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That could alter or construct that memory. And so when Bob Lazar is trying to remember

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What these things that happened it just that that was the moment where it became questionable for me about how reliable it is

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It's one person's witness but putting put into a not only that but when it's put into a suggestible state without anyone to verify but Talk to me.

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I want transitioned over a quick to you Jeff talk about Your relation to like area 51 and right you talk

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I was freaking out too about Your dad and everything and jump back into the Bob Lazar thing and right why that fascinates you in this whole discussion

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So it was not too long ago just about a little over a decade ago

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My dad just mentions just out of the blue. He just mentions That he helped to set up area 51, but he called it something different He was and at the time

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I knew very little about like the origins of area 51, you know The story behind it except, you know,

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I've heard, you know Rumors about area 51 and aliens and all the rest right that it really existed But he just mentions nonchalantly like normally is like, yeah, you know,

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I helped set it up and and did logistics for it He said but we called it. We didn't call it area 51.

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We call it dreamland and I was like, hmm And so he mentions, you know the whole thing and then finally like I sort of started getting into it

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I found out wait a minute. He's referring to it the way that it was really called To what is really called and so I asked him asked him questions about it and his his story about it was interesting

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I was born in Las Vegas in 1978 at Nellis Air Force Base My dad was in the

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Air Force and that's where we were stationed for a long time And my dad's story is essentially he was brought into the office by his captain or whatever

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And he goes into the office and the captain basically asks him because my dad's in charge of doing logistics stuff

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He asked him like, you know, Sergeant Durbin, what would you do? If you needed to get stuff that we wanted to this place in the desert

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But we needed to essentially order it in such a way that nobody could figure out what we were ordering

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Like, how would you hide it? And my dad essentially was like Well, you would do it this way you would you would follow the paperwork like this order the stuff and then you would change it

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So it looks like, you know, you're really asking for, you know I'm just random like trucks and bricks and mortar or whatever, but you put down like in the paperwork like a

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Million dollars worth of you know, toilet plungers or whatever it is Right, right. It literally is so my dad said it's so obvious But you know, it's paperwork that doesn't say what you're actually ordering

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And so basically my dad tells him here's how you would do it You would hide what you're actually ordering and that's what you would do.

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So I guess is the the boss was like, okay Thank you, Sergeant Durbin like whatever and my dad says a couple weeks later.

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He's called back into the office It's the same captain But now it's two other guys there who just dress normal suits and the guys like Sergeant Durbin Why don't you go ahead and tell them what you told me?

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How would you get the the goods and everything you needed? How would you order it and then not disclose what you're actually ordering for the file?

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And so my dad goes through with these guys that are there. He says here's what you would do And so basically they're like, well, thanks a lot

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So my dad goes back in again after he's called back in maybe like a week or two later And basically my dad's captain was like, all right,

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Sergeant Durbin. That's what you're gonna do My dad's like, what do you mean? He's like, well, we're gonna tell you what to order we need you to be responsible for the logistics making sure that it gets out to the desert and that it works towards dreamland or whatever the name of the

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Base was at the time So basically my dad said what he did the whole time we were in Las Vegas is he just did that He was told what to order he would order it

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He would not disclose in the other documentation when it actually was it would go into a file and that's how they built up area 51 he said they would have men who would basically get the trucks or get the whatever was for the base

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They would drive all the way out not far away from area 51 They would get out there and there would be like two cars and they would leave the trucks in the middle of the desert

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They would get into the car and they would drive back to Nellis Air Force Base So he said that was a regular basis is that he helped to build

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Area 51 was called something different at the time, but he was just not a lot about it He's like, yeah,

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I was in charge of the logistics of getting stuff out to the base to build the base up But again, he was like it was called dreamland

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It wasn't area 51 and it that's true. So I looked it up and I found out. Oh my goodness That is what it was called dreamland.

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And now it's area 51 So my dad was a big part of actually building up area 51 so basically the playbook that he was running was it was almost the equivalent of what

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Walter White and Jesse did in the final season of Breaking bad when they transfer all the methylamine and that train. Yes Yeah, if you look at the order forms for area 51, it's like what are they using all these light bulbs

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Lots of popsicle sticks So it's interesting because people initially were denying that area 51 even exists right then

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I got to the point where it's like Okay, it does exist. Yeah, and now that is the government confesses to it The argument is but it wasn't an alien spacecraft base

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It was just a military base trying new technology and all the rest my dad Never mentioned anything to me in terms of it was aliens technology and everything else.

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It was just a military base Connected to him in the Air Force where they were actually building up a base to basically run tests on new technology

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But of course now it's become a case of it was an alien technology, right?

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And that's why it was so secret, um, but when you look at the case of The man that we're talking about now

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Bob Lazar Bob Lazar's claims Are interesting because a lot of them are provable and you can acknowledge.

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Yes. He really was at area 51 He really took part. He was really a part of this whole process of whatever's going on there

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And yes, it's true that somehow as he departs from it and he starts announcing area 51 and all it's happening there

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Then it does appear that the government was involved in trying to erase his connection area 51 But remember I think at the time area 51 was a hidden thing.

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It was very top -secret They didn't want people to know about it. So it makes sense to me as a part of working there Yeah, they weren't just like oh, and you know, if you tell a few people it's not a big deal, right?

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They were like do not say anything. That's a part of working here, right? Like you have to be quiet If you can't do this job, right?

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Joe Rogan and Joe Rogan and maybe we'll play a clip on that and when this show goes up Joe Rogan actually

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Points out that you know One of the things that's Bob Lazar mentioned was like, you know

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He mentioned before that there's these bone scanners that actually scan not just your fingerprint But like the distance between your bones and your fingers and everything else is all unique for every person

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And he's like and people are compelled by that like man. We just discovered that he was telling the truth

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There is such a bone scanner and they were using this then and I'm thinking to myself Okay, but what's that got to do with aliens and rain

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UFOs and all the rest, right? Because the government had advanced technology on a top -secret military installation where there was examining the bones in your hand.

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I'm thinking to myself Okay, yeah sounds like the government sounds like something they would do right it doesn't mean that he was telling the truth about actually working

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On alien spacecraft and right contact with aliens and all the rest, right? It was military technology in a top -secret military installation

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And and yeah great it examines the length of bones and distance of your bones and your fingers Does that mean that now all of a sudden everything

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Bob Lazar says? Technology and aliens are existing. Well, and a lot of people tried to or people have attempted to discredit

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Lazar His story was that they tried to like erase his civilian footprint after He started sharing information about area 51 and alien technology and all that But some people go as far as to say like he never went to MIT as he claimed

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He never went to Caltech Lazar says that those records were just erased But there's pretty extensive evidence that like people just don't remember him ever being there

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And there is there there is a record of him attending Pierce Community College For some

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I think computer classes and also him graduating high school

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In like the lower third of his class So there are records That that substantiate the idea for a lot of people

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And perhaps it sort of ends up really being a he said He said kind of thing whatever, you know

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But there are people that are like he's not a physicist he he was employed he gained employment at Los Alamos under false pretenses and was actually a contractor there that worked for a company called

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Kirkmeyer Which is evidenced by some listing in a phone book.

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He didn't have like the the Los Alamos Like indicator by his name.

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He had the Kirkmeyer indicator by his name And so and there's there's way more there's there's even some in terms of Credibility of some of his claims

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Specifically, I guess if it's okay, we can talk about element 115. Okay, which was another one of big toss it out

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But I'll throw I'll throw the context out and then you respond. Okay, so one of the things that Bob Lazar Would would mention the way that he would do this in terms of he comes out

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He announces area 51 stuff in an original news broadcast He tries to keep himself private but announced what's going on in area 51

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Eventually, he just comes out and it's Bob Lazar He's saying that people are following him and even attempting to kill him

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So he wanted to put his name out so that if something happened to him for his own safety, right? Well, I'll just I'll just say this too.

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Is that the one thing that's compelling about Bob Lazar? Which is unique in my perspective is that there's a gap between like when

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This all happened to like when he came out I mean a lot of times you look at it just even now like in the

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Trump administration They're gonna mean Trump's I mean he's gonna go for re -election next year But seems a lot of times when you have these like whistleblowers or people come out they do a book deal and they do like a world tour and they just they wanted to give as much publicity as Possible because there's an ass there's a marketplace for that But that didn't really at least from my perspective kind of did seem to be like why

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That didn't seem to be in Bob Lazar's motives at all Like I think he legitimately was trying because he didn't he come out when he did his initial interview wasn't wasn't his he was hidden Yeah, he was hidden, but he had a different name.

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It was like Yeah, so I mean that that just stuck out to me but go ahead what you were saying joy

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So so he comes out and eventually it now his face is on it His name is out there and everything else and he did announce early on Particular things to point to the fact that I really was there at area like the bone scanners

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Exactly. And so one of the things that is interesting and we just need to acknowledge it in terms of like, yeah

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It seems like there are airs somebody behind this trying to erase stuff Like if he was if he was in New Mexico and he was at Los Alamos or whatever

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There's a record of it and he has evidence that he was actually there you have like newspaper articles and all the rest and so Is it possible that there's government agency or people involved in trying to erase his connection area 51?

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Yes, but does that mean that that aliens now? the military base and well

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If you're in a top class if you're in a top secret Classified military installation that the government does not want people to know about as of yet and you're coming out and announcing it

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Yeah, the government may try to actually deny it and erase the whole situation we can grant that without saying and therefore aliens

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And so one of the things that Bob Lazar has announced is he's announced the bone scanner thing

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That just gets people really excited like he announces his bone scanner that didn't just measure your fingerprints but also the distance in your bones from one another and the length that's always unique for every person and then we know now that Oh that actually is

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Technology that exists, but we didn't know then so Bob Lazar knew about it then so therefore aliens

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It's like well, no military installation. Therefore. He was probably there top secret Yeah, he was probably there and of course

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Bob Lazar also mentioned element 115 And he mentioned that long before anybody else was really talking about element 115 and on a massive scale

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So there people say oh he knew about the bone scanners and he knew about element 115

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Apparently before everyone else was talking about it Therefore Bob Lazar must be telling the truth about interdimensional beings and spacecraft that he worked on things from outer outer space at area 51

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And so joy, how do we respond to something like that in terms of he was the first person to mention area 115?

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And now we know that air that sorry not area 115 Element 115 and now we know that element 115 is a thing and he knew about it before anybody

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Well, it's a little bit of a leap just like element 115 and Aliens is a little bit of a leap

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He claimed that there was element 115 was used. It couldn't be synthesized.

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It could only be found in space and So we couldn't make it in a lab and it was extremely heavy, but it was very energy efficient.

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So basically He what he was saying is that these ships that he was reverse engineering

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They would run off of element 1 115 and They would produce this element would produce high amounts of energy for long long periods of time without you having to use

25:51

Very much of it and he he sort of described this system where you would like put the element like into these cylinders and Stuff like that.

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So First of all, he was not the first person to theorize that there were more than the supposed amount of elements on the periodic table

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That was happening in the 1960s. There were people there were chemists and scientists that were saying

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There are probably really really heavy Elements out there, but what they discovered and what we actually know today is that more than likely really heavy elements with like high proton numbers

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Aren't stable at all And so you're talking about an element

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Something that Bob Lazar doesn't explain is that some of the like some super super heavy high proton

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Elements are only stable for milliseconds two seconds

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And he didn't give an explanation Of anything other than I just saw

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This element and so but then he so I would I would say that there is something

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There's something missing from his explanation of what it was Which is that he saw it and he was like, oh, that's an he he presupposed that that was some sort of alien element and some sort of alien fuel and another thing that he talked about was

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What a part of why it was so useful is because it created It it created like the atoms would

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They like extended past the shell of the atom and created a like some sort of gravitational thing distortion right so that you so that the ship was basically flying in this sort of anti -gravity type of way, but What we know what we actually know about physics,

27:56

I mean, I'm not a physicist but what I've read about what I've read about this is that Atoms are in like their elect their electron charge is incredibly strong inside and and the strength and efficiency of the energy drops

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Significantly the minute you exit the shell like the outside of that atom and that is just something that That we know so he's talking about He's talking about something that we haven't

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So first of all, he's talking about something in an incomplete way. He's a physicist. He is talking about element 115

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But he's failing to mention It's almost like he's just telling you about something he saw and he was like Oh, and it was a part of an alien ship.

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And so it has this amazing qualities and all this stuff But it's actually not anything we've observed

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That's not like not that's not something that what how he character would have characterized it is not something that we've observed and then he didn't explain

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There's just a lot of stuff that he didn't explain about element 115 and according to physics so you could say oh

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Well, it's an alien element. Like we may not know but what you're doing in that is you are

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In order to presuppose the existence of alien elements, you are giving up the laws of physics.

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And so I just have to say You're giving up the laws of physics like just so you know

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I'm gonna I'm going to challenge you on Giving up the laws of physics as you walk around and you're held down by gravity on the earth.

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I'm going to say You are you're giving that up so that you can presuppose

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This is an alien element that runs alien ships, so there is there's a leap that's happening here also, there were times when our obviously our

29:52

There was a time when people like didn't know that carbon existed and so there's

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I don't think that there is a There there have been scientists for a long time that have considered that there are elements

30:04

That we didn't know about Bob Lazar was not the first one And certainly Bob Lazar knowing about an element before the rest of us knew about it when he worked at a secret military

30:14

Installation does not mean they're aliens, right? And I want to say this too. This is so important in terms of people saying like no a

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Bob Lazar legitimately worked at area 51 you know My dad, you know,

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I grant area 51 exists He called a dreamland like they it all that doesn't mean that it's alien technology alien spacecraft and all the rest

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So I think that the point is is when people demonstrate that Bob Lazar legitimately worked at area 51 or dreamland

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Early on they then make the leap to and therefore everything he's saying about it must be true.

30:45

I'm sure he worked there yeah, I'm sure he also said he did also claim to have a catch a quick glimpse of a

30:54

Gray alien, right, right. Well, but then he later said that's probably not what it was, right? But the thing is is if you watch the documentary,

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I really believe that Bob Lazar believes what he's saying Yeah, like he if I really believe he believes that but the fact the matter is is he's working at a top -secret

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Government facility. It's not hard to believe that whatever they were working on there

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There were you join I were talking about this there They probably all didn't communicate with each other whatever he was working on there

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If he was working on something It makes sense that if they're building something that they want to keep a secret that all the different Departments and groups that are working on these different pieces aren't communicating with each other

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Like he had a very specific task and he didn't know what task other people had that weren't working on that same task

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It wasn't separation is a way to keep things vague to keep people from doing what he did

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It seems to me like he worked on one thing and it was new and it was different It was a secret

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And so he put all these other pieces together things that he wasn't informed about and it really does seem you know

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He took all the he took the lie detector tests and he's doing the hypnosis and he seems very earnest

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I really believe that he believes he was working on an alien spacecraft But usually the simplest explanation is the truth, right and it's like yes

32:19

You were working on technology that the rest of the country didn't know about that doesn't mean it was an alien

32:26

Spaceship right now right and and like for example when someone throws out like Joe Rogan does this they are the thing at the bone scanner

32:32

They act so compelled by the bone scanner like the fact that he mentioned it before anybody else knew about it

32:37

And now look they got a bone scanner. It's it was real bone scanner. It's like That's not impressive to anybody like we don't want the government top -secret facility.

32:46

Sure. They got a bone scanner thing Does that mean it's alien technology? No, no, it doesn't mean that at all. And so I agree.

32:52

It's like people take leaps from Okay, he really was at a place called area 51 he knew about the early tech the the technology that was there early before everybody else gets it and it's like Does that mean that he's working on legitimate?

33:07

spacecraft from interdimensional beings and aliens from other Galaxies and no, it doesn't mean that at all

33:13

And so I think that you can challenge plus from a biblical perspective You have to say like how do you bring charges against somebody?

33:20

This is old a New Testament standard in terms of somebody's testimony It has to be on the basis of two to three independent lines of witness and evidence

33:26

Well, what do you have a Bob Lazar? You've got one guy Right, and he's making claims himself, right his own claims

33:34

Now, of course you can say well we can confirm with witness and testimony that yeah

33:39

He probably worked at a place like area 51 But the claims that he makes about what I did there and what I was working on there that can't be confirmed by Anybody but Bob Lazar all the claims that he made about elephant elephant

33:52

Elephant Area 51 about element 115 have been refuted right right by Physicists, right and I absolutely believe he worked on alien technology alien meaning foreign alien writing new to us alien meaning

34:09

Yeah, they're doing stuff out there where if you try to come up in there without clearance

34:15

You're gonna get shot. Like that is what this is secret and it's the government.

34:21

I'm not saying I approve of it They're doing something up there and they're still are I don't approve of the government spending

34:27

Tax dollars and being like what you're gonna do is say that it's light bulbs, but actually we're gonna bring other stuff, right?

34:34

I'm not okay with that But it is a very simple explanation that is way more likely than you were working on an alien spacecraft

34:43

Yeah, so there's a couple different things too So like element 115 enjoy you've looked at this a lot more than I have but it's not it's not something like right now

34:53

We could say we we can we can have like a live science experiment. We're gonna have it be observant We're gonna show what it is and what it isn't and we can use a scientific method.

35:01

Well, it's highly unstable So I will never be allowed to have it ever Like regular people aren't just allowed to have it

35:13

Somewhere away from us It's like hard to like by the fact of like what it is or isn't from Bob Lazar's testimony because I Can't see and maybe it is there is a part where it's like dangerous and maybe it's part of some sort of Weaponization of something that'd be very dangerous and that's why it's top secret

35:32

But it's not out in the public to where it can be observable and be repeatable of what it actually is and isn't and there's a lot of times where and what

35:41

Stephen talked about this in the episode of the New Age where there's a lot of times where the The New Age community or the and people into New Age and not called to occultism their aspect of science

35:51

They they find those gray areas of mystery and that's where they fill in the blanks with what their ideas are

35:58

So yeah, yeah, there's that aspect but then also With a lot of times people will have obviously we use the world worldview

36:06

Everyone has like a worldview and they'll they interpret their environment Off of like what they're what they're seeing and what they're observing

36:14

So, I don't know I guess that another good question asked is like what was Bob's when he got the job at Area 51

36:21

Like what was his worldview going into that? Right? So and I don't and again, I'm just giving conjecture

36:27

I don't know about this but if he really had predominant beliefs for example about extraterrestrials and aliens and you mentioned him like going to to hypnosis and seeing something that if you go into like a top -secret base

36:40

And this is sort of what it has I mean, it didn't really have the reputation prior to him to him like coming out about it

36:45

But if you that's what he believed everything that he would see and all the mystery and stuff he would obviously interpret his environment based off of the fact of What was going on in regards like to aliens

36:57

UFO technology stuff like that? So at least at least that would be my perspective in that regard, right?

37:03

Well, I think it's important to point just and I'd see you but say something. I just want to say that this whole issue

37:09

I would I would just challenge people to look at it this way when you see people listening to Bob Lazar and going hmm

37:16

Okay, I'll buy I'll bite. I agree. I'll bite into that. My question is like, okay, follow it to follow the trail

37:22

Where's it lead? I adopt his testimony and his claims about the spacecraft and the universe and all the things that are going on Where's it?

37:29

Where's it lead everybody to lead him to Jesus to lead him to God's Word and God's Revelation And and then what if someone hears me say that right now and they go so what what if what if the

37:40

Bible isn't true? What if Jesus isn't who you think he is then I would go and now we see The fruit of this whole testimony and everything else because we really didn't come down to the question of like what what is ultimate truth?

37:52

How do I know ultimate truth because if somebody's testimony about aliens and alien spacecraft is Leading to all these people basically saying

37:59

I'll bite and therefore my ufology is true My perspective of the universe is true. My anthropology is true

38:05

My view of epistemology is true and ethics and aliens and all the rest Like you just connect the dots and you can begin to see this is an entire entire world in life view

38:13

It's not just a random claim by a guy named Bob Lazar who worked for the government It's something that leads people off into a completely different perspective of the world in the universe

38:22

And you even have examples with our friend Steven van cars the whole study of the discussion of aliens Yeah, and UFOs and everything else led him to what?

38:30

The new age yeah the new age in fact, and that's one of the things too I was talking about when I was just looking up some of the random

38:36

There's a whole plethora of YouTube videos on this obviously, but I looked up just one video

38:42

I was like five minutes long about element 115 and Like I think I have I'm subscribed to YouTube red

38:48

So just automatically put pops up like another video in the background and the very first thing that rolled

38:53

Right after I just looked up this thing trying to understand what element 115 was was an episode of ancient aliens

38:58

Yeah, so and so that's just an aspect where and that's how he got into the aspect like I said at the new age one thing is particular in regards to Testimony, this is accounted multiple times and because you talk about one hand people get into Ufology and aliens and it always leads to this abandonment of against Christ not to him but against him

39:22

And we're questioning the Bible The one commonality that I've seen research for this and I we talked

39:29

I talked about this with Stephen on his on the episode We did on the new age the one commonality though Is that of all the alien abduction?

39:37

Encounters that have happened the ones are legitimate the one commonality that stops it is when they call out to the name of Jesus Yes to stop and it goes away and knowing who

39:49

Jesus is and the fact that He upholds the universe by the word of his power you look in the book of Colossians where it says that he made a public spectacle over principalities and powers that leaves us in to Understanding.

40:01

Okay. Well if that is happening by multiple independent lines of testimony people who are experiencing these alien abductions

40:07

There's a movie that came out several years ago about that, you know about the town in Alaska the fourth kind Yeah, the fourth kind and that's based.

40:16

Yes But that was the same aspect where there's all these abductions that are happening

40:22

But ultimately like we can now understand at least okay We see some precedents from a biblical worldview what the possibility of of these things are

40:33

So, what would you say some examples? well, how could we describe biblically like what these what they are because people will talk about In the

40:42

Old Testament, there's like the sons of God and some people throw out theories of like the Nephilim And there's a whole bunch of things.

40:48

So I'm gonna just kind of throw it out to you guys Maybe just talk real quick of theologically about how do we establish like biblically like at least at least a healthy

40:57

General understanding of what those are. Well the one I would say would be healthy but would be to look and just not assume the supernatural and Crazy influence like we shouldn't be constantly looking to blame things on demons, right?

41:09

so a lot of the times you have to just say that maybe just become from that person's worldview and perspective or the person could

41:15

Deluded or they could just be Lying and saying things that are patently false that they know are false cult leaders that are just leading people astray

41:23

So like you got to sort of filter through like what is this? What's the claim being made what happened and then look at the fact that yeah

41:30

It's consistent with a biblical worldview that there is alien intervention. And when I say alien,

41:35

I mean foreign and when I mean foreign I mean extra Dimensional like interdimensional like the person that burn at supernatural something is outside of the material realm

41:47

Exclusively something that is outside. I mean human beings. There are elements to Human nature that are physical material and there's elements to human nature that are spiritual

41:56

But but there's there's a close connection biblically between those things

42:02

But also in the New Testament Old Testament both Testaments is not some strange foreign concept to the

42:08

Old Testament Both Testaments you have the influence and intrusion of the spiritual in To the physical so you have alien intervention throughout the entire

42:19

Old Testament I mean even even like you have the pre -incarnate Christ Appearing in the

42:24

Old Testament. You've got it with Moses. You've got it with Joshua. You've got it You've got you've got it in instances over and over and over again

42:32

Even a seance situation where something shows up that wasn't what was planned a kind of a thing

42:37

You've got in the New Testament itself. You've got the spiritual breaching the physical you've got Moses and Elijah appearing at the

42:44

Transfiguration At the mountaintop with the Lord Jesus to the degree that it freaks out

42:50

Peter and he's you know And that but that's a real breach of the physical with the spiritual the supernatural is now amongst the natural you've got instances where Jesus has interaction with Supernatural beings in his ministry you've got after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus the book of Acts we mentioned that last episode you've got the the supernatural

43:10

Communicating in the realm of the natural. So the the biblical worldview isn't a biblical worldview

43:16

That is only the material and then sort of like when this is dead you go Somewhere else out there like it there's a there's a connection between the spiritual and the natural in the biblical worldview now, of course sin has

43:31

Obscured a lot of that and made that very difficult But the point is is both Old and New Testament. You've got the spiritual and physical

43:39

Interacting constantly the angelic beings are Old and New Testament communicating in Into the physical and natural so my point is is that it makes sense from a

43:49

Christian perspective It's not weird and foreign and like what do you mean? You're speaking to an entity from another dimension.

43:55

It's like it's not strange Like it's not normative, let's get that clear it's not normative that that occurs but it's not strange and out and out of the possibility of Things that can happen in this world.

44:08

It happens throughout our Bible So when someone comes to me and says hey, I had a real experience when I spoke to something from the other side

44:14

I go Well, let's investigate if that was really true. And maybe it is true Maybe you did and I want to say that if you did stop it.

44:21

Yeah Okay And if you did find a way to stop immediately like that's not healthy and you're not supposed to be doing that in the

44:29

Bible Never ever ever encourages that and and I'll give you just the last thing I'll say here is when Jesus gives this one story of a rich man and Lazarus He talks about you know, the rich man going into a place of torment and Lazarus being in Abraham's bosom at the time, right?

44:45

And so he's in paradise and bliss and everything else and you've got the rich man in torment. He's freaking out It's like go back and tell my relatives someone send back my tell my relatives like this place really exists like they don't want to come here and what is the

44:56

Angel communicates to him while he's in torment like there's a gulf fix between you and them

45:02

So no one's going back like to cross over and talk back from you to them

45:08

And the point I'm making there is that there aren't any old dead relatives coming back to talk to you, right?

45:15

Like let that hang for a second your dead relatives are not coming back to have conversations with you right and hang out

45:21

So if something is communicating with you from a biblical perspective some entity from the other side is communicating

45:27

It's not something that you want to hear right, right It's not something that you want to sort of be hooked up in not something you want to hear from Yeah, exactly

45:34

And so the danger there is when people start opening themselves up to accepting communication with the other side

45:40

Oh, and by the way, God says don't you dare try to seek that kind of communication necromancy communication with the dead sorcery?

45:48

Trying to cross over that realm to communicate because they're not coming back to talk to you and and somebody could say

45:56

Well, what about instances where like you have Moses and Elijah talking to Jesus? Those weren't demons

46:04

And I would say right so there's an amazing moment in redemptive history where God gives this shocking

46:11

Revelation of who Jesus is and there's the two representatives of the old Covenant the law and the prophets

46:17

Moses and Elijah Under the authority of God that are confirming to disciples. This is the one pay it listen to him

46:25

So there's no communication with like these dead people where it's this private revelation It's like you and I are buddies and let's hang out.

46:32

It's always like Jesus Jesus Jesus Him this is what it's all about. It's about him. But even that's a unique situation.

46:39

That's a privileged situation It's not something we're dead relatives from Hades are coming back to say.

46:44

Hey, don't follow me where I went It's kind of a thing and so narrative is not the normative

46:51

That's important, but what do you see? the demonic Communicating because the demonic are around.

46:58

Yeah, and the demonic we're not at the end of time where death and Hades are cast into the lake Of fire. We're not at the time of the resurrection yet that comes after Christ puts all enemies under his feet

47:07

So there is the presence of the enemy around us and you do see instances in Old and New Testament Where the enemy does try to influence and infiltrate people's lives and that's why it's dangerous

47:20

And all I want to say is this the whole ufology thing what I've seen consistently through all these years of study is just this and I think you guys a prize agree with this is it seems that everyone's obsession with this thing was with ufology and aliens and all the rest always leads to a perspective that is antithetical to the biblical perspective of mankind

47:40

Salvation who Jesus is what ultimate authority is it always moves us away from Jesus? Like I don't ever

47:46

I never heard someone's testimony of like, you know I bought into Bob Lazar and I got into aliens and then it made me fall in love with Jesus and the

47:53

Word of God In the Bible and you know, it's like no it doesn't know the direction. It doesn't it's not a thing It goes the other way.

47:58

Well, it's something to remember too. Is that we as Christians as As people who believe in the

48:05

God of the Bible I should say We can trust The order of the material

48:14

So we can trust observable science we can trust the laws of the universe and the laws of physics and things like that we have a reason to trust those things and I have a reason to rely on them and so if if you are suddenly want to believe that We can go faster than the speed of light and we can fold time and space

48:39

Then what you're saying is I don't believe in And I'm not I'm certainly not saying that in a scientific way

48:47

We know everything there is to know about the universe at this moment. But what you're saying is You're saying that you

48:55

You are forsaking the concrete ordered laws of the universe in order to believe

49:02

Something that could be which I will mention Involves a more evolutionary standpoint, which would be that we we don't have induction

49:12

We can't know that things aren't going to change suddenly right that something can come from nothing The Big Bang happened and that we evolved from you know, like we're here by accident, right?

49:23

right, and so basically what you're doing when you throw away things like special relativity and when you

49:31

And certainly when you suggest that even even within the laws of science if somehow an alien spacecraft was able to get from Another galaxy to ours without hitting any particles going at the speed of light with the energy source

49:48

Required to go at the speed of light Then you're saying that the

49:54

I mean even from the next galaxy what you're what you're giving credence to is that The the universe is at least 2 .3

50:01

million years old because that's how long it would take at light speed to get from the next galaxy over to us

50:07

So it's things like this that we have to consider we believe in an ordered world and we have that we get to have

50:15

Right and order as Russians. Yeah, and so it's important that we not just give up what's known about the universe and what is

50:22

Ordered about the universe that God created that way in that orderly way We can't just give it up for something that we might think could be blind faith, right?

50:32

Well, and I mean certainly the read the size of the universe is what makes people think that's one of the reasons why people think

50:38

There's something else out there But the size of the universe is a huge problem for science when it comes to alien highly for highly evolved life -forms getting from wherever they are

50:50

To us, that's right. And certainly the materialists can't They can't eat they they have they can say that they believe in other dimensions, but they have

51:02

They have nothing to really substantiate that at all so that belongs to us other dimensions actually belongs

51:11

Yeah, and I think that's a good place at least maybe to end that yeah that the Christian worldview and Standing in God's Revelation gives you if you heard what you're always saying and you're like, well

51:20

Exactly does that mean the Christian worldview believing in God's Revelation gives you a foundation to believe in science as a possibility that Induction is that the future be like the past in other words scientific experimentation is possible because of the

51:35

Christian worldview That's why the Christian worldview had this big pop in science in history. It's not because atheism gave us that it was the

51:42

Christian worldview that formed all of that and so the point is is that like what Joy is saying there is if we don't have

51:48

God's Revelation We have no basis to have these observations and observational science and testability and all these different things so if we accept their their

51:57

Foundational claims that we live in this accidental universe with all these billions of galaxies that are all accidents cosmic accidents

52:04

We're all cosmic accidents and these things are just sort of evolving over time Random small mutations changing over time creating intelligences and everything else

52:13

It's like yeah, and that gives you no basis now to believe that that technology You're appealing to is gonna be consistent next five seconds from now or next ten seconds from now because the universe is not what you

52:22

Think it is. It's a random It's a random jumble of chaos just happening

52:28

That's what they're that's what their profession is and then this whole idea of intelligences and logic and consistency

52:34

You sound like you're proposing a universe It sounds like the biblical worldview not like the one that you're actually proposing

52:41

Which is chaos and a lack of ultimate order and ultimacy and all the rest So like seed there's more to this discussion then you see that orb in the sky

52:50

It's like what's it lead you to though because if that worldview right that you propose leads me to a universe that is just time

52:56

And chance acting on matter and all these different things you're starting to lose now even the ability to appeal to Mathematics and laws of logic and induction and science and also moral questions that are coming up in this alien thing

53:08

And so there's so much more to this than just that It's in just a Bob Lazar work on some highly advanced piece of technology

53:16

It's where it goes from there right and the things that are assumed underneath it when you start asking these questions

53:22

Well, it actually takes an incredible amount of hubris to look at something in the sky that you don't recognize and decide

53:30

Oh, this is an alien spacecraft. It traveled from another universe I don't know how but I absolutely know that that's what it is

53:37

Like you just threw out all the things that joy mentioned you just threw out all kinds of laws you threw out physics

53:43

You threw out all these things because you saw something in the sky and decided what it was like it takes so much

53:51

Hubris to think that you can do that and decide that great like but we don't we don't recognize it that way

53:57

It's like well, it's the unknown. Well, I'm gonna decide what the unknown is, even if it totally destroys everything else.

54:03

I believe Yeah, I was just gonna say you can say we don't know everything there is to know about physics but they're like things like the theory of relativity and a special relativity are things that Since before Einstein observed them and after we have experienced every day of our lives

54:27

You can be like well I don't know about physics and I don't know like how all that works and I don't know what we know in the universe and What we don't know in the universe and I'm sure there's stuff we haven't discovered yet But the point is is that he has been right before he discovered it

54:43

That's how it was and since then every day of your life, you've experienced gravity So if you're willing to throw that out what

54:50

I'm going to suggest is that we're operating off of a faith claim here You have faith that that aliens exist

54:57

You're how you have faith that there are there is a breakage in the laws of physics and the laws of gravity and special relativity

55:05

I'm just suggest. I'm not saying like you're you're wrong I'm just saying you need to consider what you're throwing away to believe that that faith claim

55:15

Yeah, and ultimately we can have faith that like talk about induction the scientific method. We can have faith a

55:21

Good Biblically based faith that of induction knowing that the future will be like the past that comes ultimately from the nature of the triune

55:31

Christian God like we ultimately know the future will be like the past because of what the Bible what God's Self -revelation of himself is we know that because the

55:38

Bible says that Jesus Christ is the same Yesterday today and forever and that's then that's the commonality

55:45

And so instead of like I think but I would just say it's important and this is this will be the first time of many

55:50

Times we were we're just getting started here at Coltish. We're not going away anytime soon And I'm sure there's many different elements of this ufology that we'll explore in the future whether it's

55:59

Heaven's Gate Tom DeLonge for example from blink -182. He has this organization called to the stars

56:05

Academy We're allegedly he's working with the government to reveal through a time process of different alien spacecraft

56:11

He was on Joe Rogan. I do you want to listen to you want to listen to that? Maybe we'll do like a follow -up

56:20

Has come a long way I think ultimately like people always want to get and I'll strap things up people always want to This is an element of like secret hidden knowledge.

56:45

Like what's going on? What's it? What's the government hiding? What's really going beyond you know

56:50

And I just the viable the truth and just alternative to that is really what

56:57

Jesus said He said everything I've talked about I've always done open. I've talked about openly. I haven't done anything in secret

57:02

Mm -hmm, and that's and I think that's ultimately like the faith that we can have as Christians that we have faith and the truth and the truth and the hope of the gospel of What of what our hope is like in the person of Jesus?

57:16

So, you know people have said, you know, people always want to reach out beyond But the

57:21

Bible says that we need to draw near to God And he will draw near to us and then that's just a big difference that well in the universe is still can still be amazing

57:32

We just had a picture our first picture of a black hole and God holds all that together and the black hole must be there for our universe to things.

57:43

Yeah. Yep Yeah, that's a pretty awesome universe. Anyways So I think on that note this has been a blast this has been a really fun time

57:54

I hope that everyone in your audience has enjoyed putting up with our shenanigans here.

58:00

I'm sure they'll let us know. Yeah Yeah, I'm sure that'll be the case. But this has been a blast

58:06

Yeah, we'll definitely have to have a follow -up cross. Oh, we'll put the you know this episode

58:12

I'll say I'll wrap I was saying we really put the her in crossover Yes, so I thank you guys for listening to this two -part series on Bob Lazar and the

58:25

UFO phenomena We will be what we'll probably be doing is as we release these episodes

58:30

We'll we're gonna be posting some things on social media So you guys can kind of interact with a lot of these thoughts and ideas and share your thoughts

58:37

Interact with us. Let us know what you like or don't like about these episodes We love both sides of the story.

58:43

So like I said, it just We love what we do here when we appreciate you guys, even if we don't agree with us but you know, we work really hard to put this content out and We're proud of it and we want to apologize to absolutely no one.