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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.
It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on the 17th day of November 2025.
I am so thrilled to have two returning guests on the program, and I'm also thrilled to have introduced these two Christian ladies to each other. They were unaware of each other prior to this program, and I loved pairing them up for a topic which I believe will be of interest to most, if not all, of you.
Today, we have returning to the program, Christine Schwann, and perhaps some of you folks will remember a recent interview I had with Christine on the dangers of yoga and its satanic and pagan roots. Christine Schwann is a former yoga instructor and former adjunct professor of anatomy and physiology, and she's also today the executive assistant to the elders at Apologia Church in Mesa, Arizona, where two of my friends, Jeff Durbin and Dr. James R. White, serve on the elder board.
And it's, first of all, my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Christine Schwann.
Oh, it's a pleasure to be back. Thank you so much, Chris, for having me back and also for introducing me to Jen. This is going to be interesting.
Yes, I'm looking forward to it as well. And my old friend Jen Niza is on the program, who is a former occult practitioner and former psychic medium who now hosts the podcast Ex-Psychic Saved, and you can find out more about that at expsychicsaved .com.
And she's also today a member of the church where I was formerly a member before moving to Pennsylvania, Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio as well.
Jen Niza.
Thank you so much for having me, Chris. It's always great hanging out with you and being on the show. And I am very blessed to meet Christine, and I'm really looking forward to this to the show today.
Yes.
And if you're wondering why I paired these two up, ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, it's because we are discussing redefining witchcraft for a new age, the beautification of evil. And with their backgrounds, I thought that they made perfect guests to address this issue.
If anybody listening would like to join the conversation with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com. Chrisarnsen at gmail dot com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail dot com.
As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence. If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter such as you have been involved in the occult or perhaps you still are and you're starting to question whether you should be and you don't want to identify yourself.
That's an understandable reason. Perhaps you have a loved one who is in the occult in some shape or form and you also do not want to identify yourself for that reason. Well, we understand those reasons would compel you to remain anonymous.
But if it's a general question, give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence. If you live outside the USA, well, let me start with you, Christine. And by the way, I also want to let you two ladies know to feel free to ask each other questions during the conversation as well.
But the whole subject of witchcraft, for the most part, people, when I have conversations with people and I warn them about things like this, a very common response, especially if I'm talking with a non-believer.
But even some believers think that there are those of us in the body of Christ who go overboard with our alarmist attitude and they will accuse us of making mountains out of molehills. They think that sometimes it's even laughable to say that there is a real spiritual danger with things connected with witchcraft, which they may view as just as silly fun and games or that kind of thing.
But there are people who take this dead serious, who are involved in the occult in various forms of witchcraft. So tell me from your point of view, Christine, how pervasive is witchcraft, which may be going under different names in our society that we might be totally unaware of?
And I understand that you just recently became alarmed by a revival of worship of the deity Gaia, if you want to comment on that.
Oh, yes, you know, when you say witchcraft, I don't know, I don't have much, if I say experience, I'll say exposure. But then as you're rewording, rephrasing things to me, I could say to you, well, if I took an umbrella approach, and Jen, you could correct me here, if you take the practice of yoga or New Age, there's this astrology, there's falling into, what is it, those grams, there's looking into studying all these different things that I think might fall into the realm of witchcraft.
I've not run across a person who is a practicing witch, so I can't answer fully on that. Relative to the Gaia, that to me falls into that New Age, New Thought, which is when you start looking at all that's included within it, I could certainly see the practice of a cult, if you want to call it witchcraft or warlock, whatever you choose to do, it draws up certain images for people.
I could see where that might be within that realm of the Gaia, but certainly open for Jen's response to that as well.
Well, oh, I'm sorry, Chris.
No, go ahead.
I was just jumping in there.
No, that's what I want you to do, actually.
OK, good. To your point, it's so pervasive, actually, Christine and Chris, it's so pervasive and presenting in witchcraft itself is presenting in this way that seems whimsical, light, of course, alluring, enticing and enticing and through many different ways, through the music industry, through social media.
The Wicca, or this idea of this goddess worship, goddess worship is a big part of the divine feminine, which I actually am wrapping up a series on on my podcast about the divine feminine. And this is playing into this idea that you should worship a woman and going against our patriarchal God.
And it is very enticing to people that may have been hurt in the past, have had issues with men, but it is witchcraft and there is no such thing as good witchcraft. And this is a very timely show because the movie Wicked, the sequel, is coming out this Friday and it's extremely concerning and presenting witchcraft as it villainizes it, but it also romanticizes it and begs compassion for the bad witch.
And I'm making the air quotes there, the bad witch, but representing Ariana Grande with this pink dress and pink hat as there could be good witchcraft. So it's just getting worse, honestly, in the culture.
And yes, a lot of those things that you were saying before, Christine, will fall into witchcraft, certainly overlap with it and be a gateway as well.
I agree.
Yes, and it is alarming that there are even within what used to be traditional Protestant denominations, many of which are now truly apostate because they've become so leftist and many of which have even abandoned the pillars of the Christian faith, such as the virgin birth of Christ, the deity of Christ, the Trinity, Christ's substitutionary death on Calvary, his bodily resurrection and things like that.
But within the mainline denominations, as you two have likely heard, there are folks who are referring to God from the Scriptures, that God, the God that we allegedly share, but their version of it is obviously a false God.
They are referring to God in female terms. Would you two believe that this is just as bad, if not worse, because it's masquerading as Christianity, where you have professing Christians, and I have to emphasize the term professing, are referring to God as she and her?
Do you have any comments on that, Christine? And then we'll go back to Jen.
I, boy, I've got to go run out and grab my Scripture. There's one, and I'm just going to paraphrase it within our Bible that says, you know, God's word is unchanging. God is unchanging, immutable, and all authority is his on heaven and on earth.
And we are told you shall not even change one word that he has written in our Bible. I do not know where that comes from, but it's right on my desk out there. So you don't change it. The Bible prefers and uses the masculine term.
And there's a reason that it's written that way. And absolutely, we should not do that. It's an abomination to God. You just do not change the word of God to make it your own.
And Jen?
Yeah, I mean, it's it's so alarming and it's extremely convenient because it is a pat on the back to sin. It's trying to have authority and control, make the rules yourself. And it's just completely idolatrous.
It is disobedience. It is rebellion. And it breeds just more and more sin and ultimately destruction. And that's really the sad thing, my friends, is the sad thing is that these people are so deceived and roping others into the deception, which, of course, is something I did as a psychic medium.
I was deceived and getting others involved with that deception. But sin is affirmed these days. And the idea of love or the definition of love, the world's definition is completely different than God's definition of love.
Right. You know, Jesus will love you, but not the sin. And a lot of people will say, well, let let he without sin cast the first stone. And then they seem to forget the second part of that scripture, that passage where Jesus said to the adulterous woman, you are forgiven now sin no more.
He so he he came here with the sword, too. We cannot affirm sin. And again, we live in a culture that is promoting this, glamorizing it, making it the normative, quite honestly, again, through the ways that I mentioned earlier, the movies, the social media platforms, Netflix.
Oh, gosh, the music industry is huge. It's just a good time sin party.
Yeah, we do. Go ahead. I'm sorry.
Go ahead. You know, I found it. So it's in Proverbs. So God's book of wisdom of Chapter 30, verses five through six. Every word of God proves true. He's a shield to all who come to him for protection.
Do not add to his words or he may rebuke you as a liar. It's simple. God's telling us that's basically an abomination. So thanks, Jen. That was very well said.
Yeah. No, you too, Christine.
We do have a listener question already. This happens to be from the wife of a pastor I know very well. In fact, I know her very well. Also, we've had I've had wonderful times of fellowship over dinner with this listener and her husband, Christine Contino, who is the women's ministry leader at Harborview Christian Church in Port Jefferson, Long Island, New York.
Her husband, Jason Contino, is the pastor there. And Christine says, Jen, in past interviews, I've heard you say that when you were in high school, you would get information about people as you walked by them.
This information was coming from demons, as we now know. I also have heard you mention that you would see these spirits even as you would be driving on the road or just going about your day. I'm curious to know if this still happens.
Are they still trying to communicate with you or give you information about people, or do they now leave you alone? And if they are still trying to give you information, how do you handle this?
Well, firstly, I'd like to say hello, Christine, nice to nice to get a question from you. We just we just recently spoke a couple of weeks ago. She's absolutely lovely, a lovely woman. And we are going to plan to meet.
Thank you for pointing all those things out, Christine, because that is the life of a person deep into divination, quite honestly. All those things did happen to me. And when I got saved, of course, full repentance, I quit my job and I'm floating on cloud nine in a sense, loving going to church, baby believer, just picked up my cross to follow Jesus.
And about a month or two after that, I got my first spiritual attack and it was in the church. And it was actually psychic information about the pastor who was speaking, who happened to be the pastor who was counseling me at the time, who was well versed in divination, who was not afraid of the topic, who was happy to sit and talk with me as a I was 37 years old coming out of this life that started at between 12 and 13.
And I, I can make this joke because I'm allowed to. I must have turned several shades of white as if I had just seen a ghost. There's the joke. Because I was terrified. I didn't understand why that happened.
I didn't understand if I was just, you know, a bad Christian, what had I done? What was wrong with me? The enemy was just trying to frighten me, lure me back in. I suppose, but it didn't work, of course.
It, it made me feel ashamed, but I showed up for my counseling session with my pastor a couple of days after that on that Tuesday. And I told him what had happened. And I thank, I thank God for the Holy Spirit who gave me the prompting to still go and to be open about that.
And he said, we will not give any credit to the devil here. You can tell me what was said. And I did. And he said, I'm not going to lie, that hit a nerve. And then he went on to tell me the rest, but had I not gone, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have gotten the next, the tools in a sense, that quickly.
He was able to talk to me about putting on the armor of God, about praying when that happens and reminding me that of who I am in Christ and that I am a child of God. So since that time, over the last 12 years, that's happened a few more times.
Uh, I, I know exactly what it is when it happens and I resist the devil. I resist the devil. I pray to our Lord Jesus. Sometimes I'll even do a fast if that happens. Uh, but it's, it's praise the Lord.
It's a true deliverance really from, I'm not surrounded by demons like I once was. They just try to rile me up once, once in a while.
So they actually, you, you still get somehow contacted by them, uh, uninvited of course. And you just tried to ignore it and pray and so on.
Yeah. Pray. I mean, I've gone through sleep paralysis as a believer. I, you know, and I, I just want to be really clear that we, the church are the target of the evil one. We're the target. He's got the unbelievers.
And my ministry is I'm on the front lines of charging his kingdom of darkness. And I really believe that's why I've had those attacks. But you know, Michael Knowles made a great point when I was on his show.
He said, you know, it's, it's just like the enemy to try to tempt you, even though it's not tempting to me to hear from demons. Uh, he's still going to try. So I presume that if it was somebody had a problem with Oreo cookies, let's say, or some sort of, you know, you know, whatever their issue was or drugs or something like that, there will be times when the tempter comes around to tempt, especially in vulnerabilities, all different reasons.
But, but praise the Lord that we have biblical weapons in the spiritual battle. And I hold firm to the word of God.
Well, thank you for the question, Christine. Please say hello to Pastor Jason for me. I look forward to getting together with you too, very soon. We're going to go to our first commercial break. And if you want to join Christine with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
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Welcome back. If you've just tuned us in, our guests today are Christine Schwann, a former yoga instructor, and also Jen Niza, a former psychic and occult practitioner who now hosts a podcast called Ex-Psychic Saved, which can be found at expsychicsaved .com.
And we are basically discussing the beautification of evil. And if you have a question, send it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence. And going back to Christine, the Christine listener out there in Port Jefferson's question, when you say that you were contacted by demons, even going back as far as high school, how did that specifically manifest itself?
Was it involving visual images? Was it involving audio that you could actually hear? Or is it something that just comes to your mind that you're attributing to Satan? And how were you convinced, Jen, that this was actually supernatural to begin with?
So it came in the way of downloaded information. When you have a thought in your mind, you can hear your voice, in a sense, if you understand what I'm saying. So if I told you to say something in your mind right now, you would hear yourself saying it in a way.
When demons give you information, it's not your thoughts. It's immediate downloaded information. So it can be a sentence, it could be names, it can be dates, it can, whatever it is that they're trying to get across to the person.
And yes, I definitely thought it was supernatural. I was aware of the supernatural as a child and was fully convinced that there were subjectively good spirits and bad spirits. And the bad spirits would be the ones that would maybe play with the electricity in the house.
Or in our mind, it indicated that somebody who had passed away was there with us. So we already believed in what people call ghosts, which we know is not a thing. Demons masquerade as people. Demons masquerade, you know, deceased people, helpful spirits like spirit guides, familiar spirits, which would have this information about you who's been, let's say, been around for ages.
These demons are around for ages and these spirit guides have a lot of information, which are really demons, about your family. And this is why it's accurate. Anything that's happened in the past. But I did not think there was anything wrong with that, especially when it was like that, when I was just getting information for a friend at school or just a stranger or, you know, I'm getting an X-ray and, you know, somebody's, in my mind, their brother, which deceased brother, is coming through.
That's New Age terminology for a demon is contacting me basically. But I didn't know it was a demon. And to me, that was something that was supposed to be helpful and healing for people. And that's what I was told.
I was told I had a gift to help people, to get the messages from their departed loved ones to them. And I, so when it, whenever I got information that way, I, it made sense to me that, that it was the explanation I was given that made sense to me because how could I know things about people?
These, these intimate details, people that I had never, you know, people in their family. And then of course, strangers who I gave information to when I was doing those, not just random readings, when I did professional readings, these were just strangers coming to my house.
All I had was a name. And I'm probably expanding way too much on this, but I hope that, I hope that answered the question.
But it never involved visual manifestations?
No, it did. But I think because, I think I didn't mention that because she mentioned specifically in high, or you mentioned specifically in high school. So in high school, it wasn't as much, it was as time went on, that is when the visual manifestation started.
The more divination I did, the more demons surrounded me and started to manifest in these different ways. So sometimes audible, sometimes visual, but it was the more I went down the rabbit hole and invited them into my life.
And that's what these things are, they're doors. I mean, I, I did yoga. I did yoga. I went to many astrologers, numerologists. I had numerology charts done. I went to, oh gosh, the, I went to witches to cast spells and, you know, clairvoyance, and I did these readings as well.
A lot of readings. And the more and more I went to readings and did readings, the more demons surrounded me. And, and that's when they started manifesting in these different ways.
And what would a visual manifestation look like? I'm not, I'm assuming that they're not always the same, but what would it look like? What would it appear as?
That's right. Absolutely not the same. Depends on what mood they're in, if you know what I mean, what they want to accomplish. So if it was in a moment that I was by myself and they wanted to, I accomplished some sort of fear, it would be something, let's say, creepy looking like a black shadowy figure or an animal that looked like a dead animal in a sense, but animated.
And I really could see it. I could really see it, but also as people, they would manifest as people. So I could see the man standing in the room. I could see the woman standing in the road. You, you referenced that before Christine referenced that, which is true.
When I used to leave group readings, I believe that was a person in the street and I'm doing that street, I should say highway, and I'm doing, you know, 60 miles an hour in the dark on this highway. And then I see, which is no surprise because they were leaving with me after those readings and, uh, I would see them as people.
So, yeah, they appeared in different ways at different times.
Wow. That's creepy. We do have a listener from Newcastle, New York named Dwight. And Dwight's question is, first, I wanted to ask the yoga instructor since she has clearly stated, especially in a previous interview with her, that she believes that her yoga involvement was demonic activity.
I was wondering if she ever experienced anything supernatural that proved to her that it was somehow tapping into the occult. And I have a follow-up question for the ex-psychic. All right. Well, first we'll go to Christine.
Uh, the first.
Yeah.
I definitely, it is, it is satanic. Didn't think that obviously at the beginning. Um, I, I, I, before I go further though, I instantly want to say, paired on what Janice just said, that what people need to understand is anything that is not of God, without Satan, there is, he's the liar and the deceiver.
And it's just, I like to describe it as this very thin veil that just comes across to you where it's presented as good and spiritual and you feel good. There's always this initial, um, a lie that tells you it's feeling good.
The longer I was in yoga, the more and more things I would see happening around me as a teacher, for example, uh, people getting divorced, people all of a sudden having affairs, um, uh, stealing at work.
Just these little subtle things became more known. I would see more of the yoga instructors just turning down a path of pure evil, all paired in, uh, it's for the good. Um, the only time I really came upon, if, if I would say seeing anything would be when I went to a Reiki three training by myself and that was where, uh, it was just outright, this is the spirit.
This is his name. This is the picture. You will memorize this. You will go through this. And the nightmares I had that night, I was staying in their house at that point, this woman, um, the, the, uh, I cannot, I want to say nightmares and I, I don't even want to say voices, but I'll say voices.
It was so apparent that something evil was there and I can't even put the words to.
It.
It was just very evident, uh, that God just pulled me up out of there and I left that place like the next day. Um, after that, I, I really leaned away from anything. Stop that training. Uh, the yoga, I didn't do as much.
Uh, that was kind of in my journey towards I'd been baptized and God just pulled me out of it. But, but yes, I did experience some things and it's not pleasant. And the longer you're in yoga, I will tell you, the more you will start to change yourself, yourself will change or the things around you change, your family unit.
Change.
It happened all the time. A hundred percent of the time, I guess I really could say.
I just want to quickly have you explain Reiki. I think I'm pronouncing it correctly. We did, uh, define that in our previous interview, but that may be a foreign word to a lot of folks listening. Uh, can you describe Reiki for us?
Uh, Reiki, R-E-I-K-I is basically the Japanese, um, manifestation of using energy or moving energy that you have and you can feel on somebody else and moving it through their body to heal, to, um, bring them some type of, uh, some of them even would use this to, to bring them to see loved ones.
I mean, I've known several Reiki instructors who did that, but Reiki is just simply the quote unquote use of energy from yourself to another person and using their energy, vice versa.
To heal them of something.
Oh, that's, that's one thing, but there's other things you would do with Reiki and Jen can probably expand even more than I.
Well, I, I wasn't, I, I wasn't involved with Reiki that much, but I am very aware of Reiki, have done a lot of shows about it. And the very concerning thing about Reiki, which you could probably speak on this, is that they're even doing it in hospitals.
There were some reports over the last couple of years that it was even being done on people on operating tables before going into surgery. How much more vulnerable can you be when you're under anesthesia and now you're practicing, you're, you're invoking demons over this poor soul?
Without a doubt. Well, you said the right, you do invoke a demon when you are, when you're trained in Reiki, you are invoking a spirit and it's, and it's not God, it's an evil spirit, but in your, in your mind, it's a good spirit, right?
That's, that's the lie. And it is used. I know, I, I, I know and have seen many chiropractors who might have, they use Reiki or they'll call it something different, but they use energy and we're going to move your energy.
You know, and it's all about that and that, that modality of healing now is, is gone and it's starting to come into mainstream, which is what Jen is saying. Yes. It's becoming more accepted as an alternative method.
Yeah. And as I believe I told you during our previous interview, Christine, I knew personally a professing Christian, evangelical Christian chiropractor who added Reiki into his practice. And the first time I discovered it was when he was providing a chiropractic exam to the talk show host of the radio station that I worked for for 15 years.
And I was looking at him baffled as he hovered his hands over the body and all, you know, from basically from head to toe, hovered his hands without ever touching the talk show host and determining he was, he was basically giving him diagnoses of his various health problems, so he claimed, just by hovering his hands over this man's body.
And I was very happy that during a road trip somewhere, when he was in the car with another Christian chiropractor, the other Christian chiropractors sternly rebuked him and said, that's satanic. You've got to get rid of that.
That's and I don't know if the Christian chiropractor who was practicing Reiki ever did get rid of it, but at least he was warned by another chiropractor that he was dabbling in the occult.
It is definitely a cult practice.
Now, Dwight had a follow up question for Jen. This is Dwight from Newcastle, New York. He said. If the yoga instructor never received any kind of visible or audible. Uh, approaches from the underworld, why did they approach you and not others who were involved in demonic activity?
That's, uh, that's for you, Jen.
Well, it seems as though as per Christine's answer, she was approached and she.
Did, I think he was guessing because Christine hadn't answered the question.
So that kind of, I guess, answers that question. But I would say that, uh, people that are engaging in demonic practices eventually will, uh, hear from demonic, uh, entities. Uh, yet they will believe that they have some sort of control over that.
So for example, uh, when I believed a bad spirit was contacting me or talking to me or whatever, I just believed I needed to light more sage or get more crystals or imagine more white light around myself.
Christine's, people can't see Christine, but she's responding. Cause we, we come from the same, the same world. Uh, and, and it's so alarming because of course demons only bow down to Jesus. But I didn't know that then, of course.
Uh, so I, I argue that when you are involved with all things, new age and occult, you absolutely will hear from demons.
You absolutely will.
Um, yeah, yeah.
We're both saying it. We're both shaking our heads. Absolutely.
Now the caution I have from you answering that way is we, we, we wouldn't want to make people comfortable who are involved in something, maybe naively or unconsciously that's occultic because they may say, well, I guess I'm not doing anything wrong because I never heard or saw a demon.
You know what I'm saying?
Uh, yeah, but, but if you're taught, but let's say you're somebody who, um, you know, God forbid there are, you mentioned this earlier, there are Christians, believers that get roped into something that they, that is divination or new age, and they just aren't aware, which is why we do what we do, right?
We go out and we expose these practices so that people have the knowledge of it. If you have a tarot card reading at a bridal shower, uh, which is, you know, of course horrible, uh, but you're not a diviner or you're not somebody who is in the new age, that's different than being in the new age and the occult.
So maybe I should make myself more clear and say that if you are someone who is constantly, and Christine, I would like to hear your response on this too, uh, because I could even be wrong with that. It could be just the one time and you could hear from them, but I will say that somebody who is practicing, engaging, consulting on the regular, uh, which God says in Deuteronomy 18, 10 to 12, do not do that, do not consult, do not practice.
Then absolutely you're going to hear from demons. Our mutual friend, Marsha Montenegro, my dear, dear friend, she's a former astrologer and she and I have spoken several times and, uh, she wasn't a medium like me, but she received psychic information.
Astrology is a tool of divination and she was hearing from demons all the time. This is where this information is coming from. It's channeled information and through the guided meditations and all of those things.
So I, I maintain that if you overall are doing this, you absolutely will hear from demons. And I would want to hear Christine's.
Well, you know, I know that you heard, you know, the, the, the, the words, if you will, cause you put that out up front. Um, but what people don't understand is when you're, when you're being deceived, like Eve in the garden, she heard, did God really say that she heard something when you're doing yoga and you're introduced to it, it's, Oh, this is, this is spiritual.
You heard that somebody told you that guarantee it to you. And Oh, namaste means peace. And we love, you are hearing from someone. It's not always these demonic evil that we think, no, early on, you're going to hear what, what, what Satan does.
He will deceive you. And you, what you're hearing, be it through another person, even it can be, Oh no, this is great. Holy yoga, biggest lie out there. Chris, we talked about that. So are you hearing demonic things?
Absolutely. But you've got to understand it's going to be veiled in this new piece. It's going to be, they've taken, Satan has taken God's words from the Bible in terms of peace, right? And spirituality.
And that's what you're going to hear these words in to sway you or deceive you. I guarantee as you continue down that path for a decade or more, you will then face the real evil in your mind, demons that I, like I did, that you think is what evil is, but this is what I'm trying to please share with people.
Evil can look just like an angel. They are right there. Angels of love.
Come on.
You have to understand that first and foremost. And you do that by reading God's word every single day. And you will begin to understand how they lie and deceive.
I think that was really well said and a good point that it may not be audible. But remember, if you're, again, if you're engaging in any of these practices, you've already heard from demons. I'm putting the air quotes again, because you're practicing and believing into a doctrine of demons.
So it's a false religion. They are lies. And the author is the devil. So you're already hearing from the devil if you're practicing yoga and believing into it and all the other new age and occult practices.
And I'm going to ask you both a question. I don't even know if you'll have time to answer it before we go to the midway break. I have a friend, he happens to be. The son of someone who was very instrumental in leading me to Christ, he is in his 30s.
But thanks be to God, he is now a believer. He's in a solid Presbyterian church as a member, as is his wife and his children are being now introduced to Christianity through that church. But for the longest time, I knew this young man.
He was not hostile against the faith, but a skeptic. He was hesitant. And one of the things that happened to him before he really repented and came to Christ, before it came to that point, he was terrified by an experience he had where he claims he was he woke up, he was wide awake and it wasn't a dream.
And there was a person standing in his bedroom. And the person appeared like the silhouette of a person, but inside the silhouette, it was like TV static. And he was terrified, he was flipping out. And then eventually it vanished.
And he told me about this. I don't think he would make it up. He swore over and over again that it wasn't a dream. And so, I mean, obviously it's possible this could have been some kind of tricks of light and darkness and shadow.
I don't mean tricks that somebody's performing a trick against him. I'm talking about when your senses deceive you. But do you have any ideas on that yourself? And I'll start with Jen this time.
Yeah, I'm going to say, well, I believe that that was an evil entity, a demon showing itself to your friend, your friend's son. And for the reason of trying to scare him, I mean, it sounds like he was a little paralyzed with fear and that's the goal.
And I feel terrible that he went through that. I mean, I've gone through that myself. You know, woke up and have seen demons standing there. I've heard many, many, many stories from many people that I've met throughout the years that have the same exact experience.
And sometimes they'll even present us the same. Or it'll be somebody that looks like a deceased loved one. But this is a very real, a very real thing. And I'm really glad that you brought that up, Chris, because this is something that people are afraid to talk about.
So when I go out and speak and these ladies come up to me or ladies and gentlemen come up to me afterwards, after the Q &A and, you know, off the record, it's not being videoed or anything, they're embarrassed.
They hold back their questions in these experiences because they think people will think they're crazy and they're not crazy. We know there's a spiritual battle going on. Demons are real and they are here.
So I think that that's what happened with your friend.
We're going to pick up on that when we return and we will get to a listener named Timothy in Fremont, California. And if anybody else has questions submitted to Chris Arnson at Gmail dot com, don't go away.
We'll be right back after these messages. Attention all Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners. There is no doubt we are living in difficult times. Our country is facing out of control government spending, a looming trade war, a race towards a traceable digital currency and the growing BRICS alliance, which stands for Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa.
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And I just wanted to ask you your thoughts on what I was bringing up before the break, Christine. We already had Jen's thoughts on that, but my friend's son who saw this silhouette of a human in his bedroom when the, the outline of that silhouette was filled with what appeared to be static, like in a TV set, it shocked the living daylights out of him, terrified him.
This is an adult man. And he, I believe it was eventually used of God to draw him to Christ because he was so frightened of the demonic realm. You have any thoughts on that, Christine?
I don't doubt him. I don't have any experience similar to that. So I can't relate to it, if you will. But I certainly don't doubt that. And I know Jen and I were talking or chatting and you know, it's to instill fear and who knows where that fear draws you, right?
It can draw you to, to ponder it, think about it, get more fearful, making you away from God's word. But, but everywhere in the Bible, you know, more than 300 times it says in, in, in different manners, do not fear, do not be dismayed, fear not.
So we're taught through Jesus what to do in those instances, which is pray and to use scripture to rebuke or talk to that demon, if you will. So if, if you do, listeners out there have anything, an experience like that, what would you do?
I would say instantly what Jesus says, you know, get behind me, Satan. You use the scripture. And, and that's, that's our sword. That's what we're to use. That's the best I can do, Chris.
No, that's fine. I was just curious. And we do have Timothy from Fremont, California. And I know that Timothy is a solid brother. He's affiliated as a volunteer and representative for First Love Ministries, whose radio wing, internet radio wing, First Love Radio is live streaming this program, Iron Trip and Zion Radio right now.
But Timothy, his last name is Oliver, Timothy Oliver, is also director of Christian Soldiers Ministries. His website is JesusIsCreator .org. JesusIsCreator .org. And he has a question for Christine. What does your guest think?
Now, this is something that we've dealt with thoroughly in our last interview, Christine, but he says, what does your guest think about yoga exercises, stretches without meditation? Also, what does she think about Tai Chi?
Yeah, here we go again. I'll be succinct and I recommend you go back and listen. We did go in depth about it. Yoga as a practice, if you do yoga as a practice and you go somewhere to do it, it is the Hindu religion.
It's part of the religion. It's part of getting you to join one, let go of the mind, body, spirit. And actually yoga means to yoke in Sanskrit, to yoke the mind and the body with the one spirit. But you have to understand that when you're doing that, you are not in any way, shape or form bringing forth the spirit of God, the Holy Spirit at all.
So you are instantly meddling, if you will, with demonic forces, with Satan, a pagan practice. Stretching, now it depends. Again, this is a wide open umbrella. If you want to talk stretching, I would say, okay, where do you do it?
What do you do? Are you following a routine that you see on TikTok or Instagram? Or what exactly are you doing? And are you following somebody's little stretch routine that is several poses put together?
That makes a big difference and you're still doing the practice of yoga. But if you want to sit on a chair while you're at work and cross your legs, like a cross it over, it's called a seated, and just move your body forward and twist the body in every way.
Well, you're just stretching. And meditate, when you talk about meditation within the yoga world, it means to, quote, unquote, here we go, air quotes again, Jen, to empty the mind. You have to understand, Satan does not want you to have any thoughts in your head, whereas the Bible says we're to meditate.
The word specifically meditate and meditation is only on the word of God. So, there are two opposing viewpoints. One is Satan and one is from our Lord God. I don't know if that's answering it, but I'd have to have a more personal question from you.
What are you doing for stretching? Everybody says, well, if you just stretch, you know, you're not doing anything. Well, it depends on what you're doing physically. So, that's not much of an answer unless I had a lot more information.
By the way, Timothy, you can go to ironsharpensironradio .com and type in Christine's last name, S-C-H-W-A-N, and our interview comes up where we really exhaustively discussed that very thing for two hours.
So, oh, and the Tai Chi, I think that came up also, but I know that Christine's pastor, Jeff Durbin, one of the reasons that I invited Christine on my program as I was at a Bible conference in Ephrata, Pennsylvania, the Future of Christendom conference, where Jeff Durbin was one of the speakers, and during a Q &A with the audience, somebody else asked about martial arts that have demonic roots, and Jeff specifically brought up Tai Chi, and he warned against being involved in it.
Do you have any memory of specific things he said about Tai Chi, Christine?
I don't remember what he, in particular, said about it, but if you were to do some further search, be it AI or Google, etc., it's rooted in the Dao, a Daoist philosophy, and that's talking about the yin, the yang, the energy, the balance, the harmony with nature.
Are you hearing the words I'm saying? It's a practice that is coming from a non-Christian, it's coming from a pagan belief system, so it's not of God, and when they're moving their arms as they do in these forms, they're moving energy, quote-unquote, and again, we come back to that word energy, which is in the New Age practice, and dealing with these energy centers in the body, and how each of them moves, and the whole purpose of getting your energy flow and balance is then so that you can come again one with the universe, again, there is a commonality in all this, so Tai Chi is not a, as Jeff would explain, his martial arts, what he learned was just a self-defense, literally from one master in the art of self-defense, it came from no pagan religion, whereas Tai Chi does have its roots in paganism, if you will, so yes.
Yeah, and a lot of people rave, just like they do about yoga, they rave about Tai Chi, and this actually brings me, well, first of all, I want to get Jen to answer a question that popped into my head, how common, Jen, in your circles of psychics was the practice of yoga, and even Tai Chi for that matter?
It was extremely common, I would say most of us practiced yoga, Tai Chi, oh gosh, the sound bowls, people went and they did that, all these kinds of techniques, and really rituals, and other New Age practices, because they really do overlap, that's the whole thing, and that's what I always try to tell people, it's like a bag of potato chips, you can't just have one, one leads to this one, one leads to that one, so it was just really extremely common, Chris.
And basically, what I wanted to ask, revolving, or involving, I should say, this whole topic, is that people who practice these things, people who not only practice yoga, but people who visit mediums, or people who believe they have the gift of being a medium, and are a practicing medium, it all boils down to the common answer, when you have a conversation with anybody like this, that I'm helping myself, I'm helping other people, and if I'm really helping myself and other people, God cannot be opposed to it, so even if these people would say, oh, I don't want anything to do with Satan and the occult, but these things are gifts from God, it's amazing to me how many times I've seen interviews with psychic mediums on television, and almost everyone, if not everyone, that I saw claimed to be a Roman Catholic, and claimed that these gifts that they had were from God.
Now, I know the Roman Catholic Church has an official position against necromancy and against mediums. In fact, I don't know if you're aware of this, Jen, he may have been a Monsignor on Long Island before you were even a Christian, I can't even remember how long ago it was, but there was a Monsignor on Long Island named Tom Hartman, who hosted a program, a cable vision program called The God Squad.
In fact, there was actually a comedy movie invented, had no basis in truth or the real people, but there was a comedy movie that was created about a similar friendship that this Monsignor Tom Hartman had with a rabbi and a mainline Protestant minister, and they would host this program answering questions from people about spiritual matters.
But he was sternly rebuked by his bishop. I don't know how else he may have been chastised or disciplined, but he was actually suggesting to people who had come to him for grief counseling, he was, this is a Monsignor in the Catholic Church, he was recommending that they visit mediums.
And there is a member of my own family who is a devout Catholic who has visited mediums. I haven't asked the last time that occurred lately, and it reminded me I should probably do that. But the answer is, when being rebuked, this is helping me, how could God be against it?
And perhaps, Jen, we'll start with you, and we'll have Christine follow with your responses to that logic, which is basically, the ends justify the means.
Yeah, well, and I totally understand that, because that was something that I believed and would say myself at the time. So then you would have to push back and say, well, you're not talking about the God of the Bible, the one true God, because God is clear that he actually condemns this.
So to sit there and say, well, I'm helping people, well, you're not helping people. In fact, what you're doing is you're doing something that God, you know, unequivocally says not to do. He says it throughout the entire word.
He says it from the beginning to the end. So you're not helping anybody, and you're making your own rules. So you can't drink from the cup of the Lord's, of the Lord, I'm sorry, you can't drink from the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons.
That's 1 Corinthians 10 .21. Yet we see this constantly promoted, like you just mentioned, you see the mediums out there, Teresa Caputo, Kim Russo, which I hate. These are the people that I was in relationship with, not as much Teresa, but Kim I was, and they are Roman Catholics.
And you're right in what you said, Chris, the general position is not to promote it, not to agree with it. Yet we see it constantly over and over again. Lorraine Warren, Ed Warren, I don't know if you remember them, Christine, in the Catholic Church, a demonologist in a trans channel medium.
So you're constantly seeing them trying to mix what seems like Christianity, seems like Christianity with the new age and the occult, and then acting like you can just make it so while you're completely rejecting God's word.
You can't do that. You can't be a Christian and a psychic or a Christian and a witch. It's just like Christine said, there is no holy yoga. So but putting those terms there is a master deception of the devil to lure you in to make you think it's possibly religious, godly, holy, acceptable and innocuous.
But you can't walk around and make your own rules. But that really truly is the definition of being a spiritual person holding to no authority, which is our God. No true authority.
Yeah, and I completely see the logic in the minds of Roman Catholics who get involved in psychic medium readings and all that, because if you communicate in your mind in a way, I don't believe that they're really communicating, but if you think that you are communicating with saints who are deceased people, and I know that those who are truly saved are alive in heaven, but the Bible still refers to people who have physically died as dead.
And they are communicating in their minds anyway with dead people, which is not only clearly a blasphemy in the scriptures. In the Old Covenant, it was a crime punishable by death. So, you know, and I've reminded this family member of mine of that, to jolt this person into the realization that doesn't matter what they think, how they feel, how it makes them happier in their grief.
You can't do anything that offends God and believe that you are benefiting yourself or anyone else. But Christine, you have any thoughts?
Oh, yes, I do. And to those of you who are listening, who vacillate on this, I would say, I want you to hear this. You go into Deuteronomy chapter 18, and this is the true and living word of our Lord God.
When you come into the land that the Lord your God has given you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. We are a nation now doing this. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his sons or daughters as an offering, anyone who practices divination, or tells fortunes, or interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
For whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations, the Lord your God is driving them out before you. You shall be blameless before the Lord your God for these nations which you are about to dispossess.
Listen to fortune-tellers and to diviners. But as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do it. Period. There is no question here. That's God's Word. How much more do you want? And when you just have to go look at history in the Bible, and we're just replaying history over and over and over, and here are the pagan religions, and this is all Satan.
As far as the ends.
Justifying the means, and saying that you have received benefits from something, and it can't be from Satan, it must be from God,. I can't remember if we actually had you answer the question during our last interview, Christine, but I remember you hinted, at least during the interview, that there were medical developments of physical harm that could be done during yoga practices that are believed by yoga practitioners and those that are practicing yoga, being instructed in yoga, that they're being taught that this is benefiting them.
And it might even feel good temporarily, but aren't there things that are now being discovered that are actually harming the body somehow? Well, there are.
Numerous injuries that people who practice for, let's say, an excessive amount of time, and they do this every day, and many people who practice yoga are hypermobile people. They have lax joints. You have major injuries in the knees, in the low back, and in the shoulders, and that will happen.
Again, what I alluded to is, anyone who is an aerobic, sorry, a yoga instructor does not, there is no body, there is no governing body over it to say, to keep it ethical and moral, and to protect you.
You have no protection from this 18-year-old or whoever is in front of you, male or female, they only need two zero, 20 hours of anatomy. That's it. That's it. And then they can go and tell you what to do, because they're being told what to tell you to do, and they frequently come and touch you or push on you, and that's where I've seen more harm done than I care to recall.
So yes, there's absolutely things going on. You're giving your physical body in all this practice, and in these quote-unquote stretches, let's go back to that one, Timothy, we'll have a conversation, with an individual who has not a background in helping you.
Their background is in the Hindu religion and putting you in these poses. So that's a whole different area of yoga practice that I absolutely saw happening, and I.
Know it's existing out there. Now, going back to you, Jen, how are or how is witchcraft being redefined and given a new face in various ways to make them less frightening to the average person, perhaps even less frightening to the person who has a nominal Christian background, or even somebody who's in a genuinely sound evangelical church, for that matter, who might be more easily lured into giving approval in some way, or thinking they're receiving benefit from it in some way?
How witchcraft is being redefined and being portrayed as, you know, something good? What are various ways that you're aware of?
Yeah, I think manifesting the law of attraction, which is being promoted big time. Now tell us about that, what it is. Sure, the law of attraction is the idea that you start with the desire of your heart, and you put it out there to the universe.
You create a vision board to assist you in drawing this desire towards yourself, believing that the energy, the universe, and of course your own imagination, really, and your own feelings, because you have to stay positive when you make this vision board.
You have to stay positive, you have to visualize it, you have to believe in it, you cannot say anything negative about it. It's really rather exhausting, to be honest with you. It's been around for a while, but Rhonda Byrne kind of brought it back, in a sense, with the book The Secret, and she said...
Yeah, Oprah was promoting that, right? Naturally.
More to come on Oprah, a later date. But yeah, she actually said, Rhonda Byrne said, you can and should have whatever you want, you just have to know the secret. So, you're believing, which is, it's idolatry, so you're believing that the universe can actually bring you the ideal apartment that you're manifesting, the love of your life, the job that you always particularly wanted, in the particular state that you wanted to live in, with the particular people that you decide should be in your life.
And so it's idolatrous, of course, it relies on your plans for your life, not the submission to God for His will to be done in our life, right? So, but it presents as something innocent. Hey, I'm not doing anything wrong, I just, what's wrong with having goals?
That's a big area, actually, Chris, because there are a lot of Christians that make vision boards, and what they're just doing is they're taking Habakkuk out of context, and actually our good, dear friend, Pastor Doug Totter, agreed to possibly do a little interview with me about that.
Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. Well, let me know when you do it. Oh, definitely, yeah. So, they take, it's Habakkuk, I just want to be sure about it, it's either 2 .3 or 3 .2, I'm having a dyslexic type of moment with that address, and it's saying to write the vision, thank you, you can look it up, you know, on the tablet of your heart, and God's talking to His prophet, and it has nothing to do with us manifesting.
But that's a big way, and also, again, presenting witchcraft as something, now going outside of believers, let's say, the unbelievers, presenting witchcraft as something pretty, again, whimsical, beautiful, but offering you this power, and that's what it plays on, because these are young people or older people that want control over circumstances in their life, they want to create their own reality.
When you don't feel confident in your life, or something's going on, you have anxiety, you have depression, whatever it may be, the idea is as long as you're not hurting somebody else, you're just casting spells for your intentions are good, and to put that out there, and then you go through all of these rituals, like cleansing your crystals, wearing the crystals, hey, crystals are pretty rocks, right?
So, you wear this crystal, hey, I'm not the woman in the coven with the black pointy hat and the cauldron, I'm just out here doing my moon ritual, doing my salt for protection, you know, so that's the way it's being presented to, you know, to the audience, right, in a sense, all over the place, through the music, I keep, you know I harp on it, Chris, because it's so true, it's so, and you said before it's pervasive, it is, it's spreading, this is spreading, and our culture assists that through technology, AI, Taylor Swift, I'm just throwing a bunch of different things out there, right, Wicked, the movie, you know, the celebrities, the Kardashians, seeing psychic mediums several times, and many people would not, they just like their show, they just think they're pretty, they just think whatever, and young girls really have an affection for them, and unfortunately idolize people like this, and so when they see them going out and doing these things, it can't be bad, right, I mean, they sat with Tyler Henry, Teresa Caputo, and now Kim Kardashian just did a whole big thing, she just did a rant actually calling her psychics liars, because they predicted that she would, I don't want to pivot too much here, but predicted she would pass the bar exam, and she didn't, and she went on social media, and she called them pathological liars, but she still doesn't understand divination, because she'll think that it's Robert Kardashian, her deceased father, coming through in the readings, but that part was bad, so then that part, the whole thing is coming from demons, there's nothing godly about this, so it can be super deceiving, and these little Facebook games, and horoscopes, these are ways that it makes itself present as light, as Christine kept saying to 2 Corinthians 11, 14,.
And 13. Well, as I know is that you gave me a great insult line for somebody, go clean your crystals, but we have to go to our final break, and when we come back, Christine, I want you to say something about your past experience being involved with the Word of Faith Pentecostal movement, because what Jen was describing, I would be shocked if your mind wasn't immediately going to Word of Faith practices, because they are nearly identical, just claiming a different source for that being, in their minds, God and the Holy Spirit, but we have to go to our final break.
If you have a question, send it in now, because we're rapidly running out of time. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, we're going to be right back after these messages.
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Welcome back, and as I was saying before the break, Christine Schwan, why don't you inform our listeners your thoughts on how closely connected and similar what Jen described as in regard to the law of attraction of the laws of attraction, and how it is so eerily, creepily similar to the Word of Faith movement?
Well, it is. They come from the New Thought movement, which was prevalent in the late 1800s, basically in the area of the Boston area, and E .W. Kenyon is the theologian who many of these Word of Faith pastors, like Rick Warren, originally did a lot of the reading on that and believed in the theology around what E .W. Kenyon put forth, which is now directly related to the Word of Faith, where you're going to go into the Bible and take out of context Scripture and use it for you gaining what you want.
That's very prevalent, and I shared with you, I had a Joel Osteen Bible, and I had a Beth, not a Beth Moore, a George Meyer Bible, where everything that I want, they wanted, is going to come out of Scripture.
So it's biblical, and you know, they use that false premise of the Bible for something to get you what you want. So Word of Faith preaching is out there. Word of Faith churches are out there. I actually also liken it to the seeker-sensitive churches, who it's more of a TED Talk now, and it's all about making me feel good.
Never were you, nor did I, hear the gospel. Never did I hear that I was a sinner. Never was any of that presented. It was only about me and the use of the I am. Don't you find it fascinating, Jen and Chris, that it's all what the secret taught and what all these new thought movements teach is you stay positive, but it's I am.
I am healthy. I am prosperous. I am the head and not the tail. I am above only not below. I am. I find it fascinating how Satan uses that to deceive in such a profoundly diametrically opposed way to just make you, you know, take the Word of God and turn it upside down.
But it all stems from E .W. Kenyon in the late 1800s, early 1900s readings, and that's what is the new thought movement from back then.
Yeah, I remember seeing a clip of Joel Osteen using that phrase that Jesus Christ used, of himself, and as God did in the burning bush to Moses in the Old Testament, using that phrase to identify himself over and over again, attributing to himself all these wonderful things, and he was going on and on over and over again, I am this, I am that, and it sent chills up my spine because it was just utter blasphemy in my opinion.
It is utter blasphemy. That's why I tell people, go and read the Bible every day. That is, especially Catholics, Roman Catholics are taught not to go into the Bible. That's for the priest. I was raised Roman Catholic, Jen.
That's how I know all that. But it is an abomination, and Jen will tell you that these, all these, the secret, anybody out there, whoever you were following, not in a church, they'll tell you that's the use of I am.
When you do your vision board, I am living in Hawaii, and I am living in my dream home, and I am this CEO of a major company. You are taught that's what's going to draw the energy in. Am I right, Ms. Jen?
Absolutely, and the word of faith puts that emphasis on the power of our words, teaching people that they can speak things into existence. We do not have the power to speak things into existence. That's just the constant twisting of Scripture to make it fit a New Age narrative.
Now, when I worked for WMCA Radio for 15 years, WMCA, a major New York City station affiliated with Salem Media, the largest Christian radio network in the world. When I worked there, I remember my general manager calling me one day and said, I want you to come and meet a Long Island pastor that's interested in advertising, and if this is successful, I want you to handle the account.
So we went to meet this pastor on Long Island who is fairly well known on Long Island. He's not there anymore. He's either relocated or retired, but what we met in a diner, and this pastor said to me after he shook our hands, he said to us, you should be very complimented that I shook your hands.
And I was like, wow, that sounds odd. And he said, you got to be careful as a Christian who you shake hands with because there is a thing called the transference of spirits, where if you shake hands with someone who is of Satan, you could have evil spirits transfer into you.
But on the positive side, if you shake hands with godly people, powerful Christians, good spirits will be transferred into you. Have you ever heard of this from a Christian perspective, somebody trying to defend that?
What was he a pastor of is my question. It was a fringe charismatic movement.
Okay, there you go. Well, that says it all.
But that was just creepy, and I just didn't know how widespread it is that you might be aware of.
It. Well, and you know, Chris, that's where I would say, and I just love to have the opportunity to say that even though my ministry is to expose, educate, and warn people about the occult of the new age, I would never tell you that there's a demon behind everything, even that wasn't what I was saying earlier in the conversation.
There's not a demon behind everything. A Christian cannot be possessed. So if you're holding the hand of whoever, we shake hands all the time, which is the the right and respectful thing to do when you're meeting somebody.
I have no concerns about what you do when I shake your hand. I have the Lord Jesus Christ as my protector. I'm in Christ, and my salvation cannot be taken from me, and I do not have to worry about possession.
So I think that's just a terrible thing, and for him to say that there are good spirits, what a shame. There's only one good spirit, and he is God the Holy Spirit, the third person of the triune Godhead.
Well, we are out of time, and I want to make sure our listeners have some necessary websites. If you want to find out more about the church where Christine Schwan is a member, where she serves as executive director to the elders, that's Apology at Church in Mesa, Arizona.
Go to ApologyAtChurch .com. ApologyAtChurch .com. Jen Nunez's website is xpsychicsaved .com, xpsychicsaved .com, and I would never hear the end of it if I didn't tell our listeners the website for Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Merrick, Long Island, where I was formerly a member for many years before I moved to Long Island.
That's Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Merrick, New York, and that website is gracereformedbaptistchurch .org, gracereformedbaptistchurch .org. Well, I want to thank you both for doing such a wonderful job.
I look forward to having you both back on the program, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a.