May 6, 2025 Show with Astronaut Barry Wilmore on “Trusting in God’s Sovereignty While Stranded in Outer Space” PLUS Dr. Jason Lisle on “How Do Most Secular Scientists Disagree with the Biblically Minded Scientists about Astronomy?”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

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And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this sixth day of May 2025.

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During the second hour of today's program, I'll be giving you all praise reports on the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon that we had last Thursday with a keynote speaker,

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Dr. Jason Lyle, who is a Christian astrophysicist. He was a phenomenal guest speaker, and we have him, thankfully, as our second guest today on the program, and he will also give his own account of what occurred last

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Thursday at the Pastors Luncheon here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. But for the first hour,

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I am so thrilled and honored with the privilege of having on the program for the very first time

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Barry, also known as Butch Wilmore, who is an astronaut, and anyone who has access to a television set or a computer must know that for nine months,

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Barry Wilmore and Suni Williams were astronauts stranded in space for nine months after what was intended to originally be just an eight -day mission in space, and thankfully, he was rescued and returned safely here to Earth, and we have

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Barry Wilmore on the program today, and he is not only an astronaut, but he is a fellow

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Reformed Baptist, and he is an elder at Providence Baptist Church in Pasadena, Texas.

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It's my honor and privilege to welcome you to the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Barry Wilmore.

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Yes, Chris, it's wonderful to be here with you and to share just some things about our

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Lord and Savior Jesus Christ with you and your listeners. Thank you for the opportunity. Amen. Well, I'm sure you're thrilled to be back on the planet

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Earth. Yes, sir. The Earth is a wonderful place to be. Well, as we always do on this program when we have a first -time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include their religious atmosphere, if any, in which they were raised and what kind of providential circumstances our

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Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them, and we would love to hear a summary of your story.

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Well, I was very fortunate, blessed, in fact, that my parents loved the

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Lord. They loved Jesus Christ. They had us in church. They taught me early the importance of the church, that the church is vital to our spiritual well -being.

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I was a very inquisitive, at times rambunctious little child, kid, and I needed that continual—and

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I know that now—I needed that continual infusion of the truth of God's Word, even at a rudimentary level, not completely understanding everything as, of course, the weeks and months and years went forward.

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But by God's grace, I came to understand that I was lost, that my sin separated me from the

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Holy God, that I was deserving of punishment. I was deserving of eternal punishment, though I didn't understand what all that meant at a ten -year -old's age, but it was real to me, and I distinctly remember the burden of my sin, the burden that I carried, the guilt of what

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I knew that separated me from my Lord. I remember that vividly. Tears at many times, just out of the blue, realizing that, and I just couldn't figure out, though, what this salvation was, how

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I could get it. My mother had some back issues. One Sunday night,

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I stayed home with her from church. My brother and dad went to church, as we always did, but I stayed home with her because she was down on her back and needed some assistance.

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And the Lord used that opportunity, once again, to have her share the truth of the gospel with me. And that night, the

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Lord made it clear, and I now know, looking back, I didn't ask the

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Lord to save me. I simply was able to believe, and I now know that He enabled me to believe.

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He is the one that regenerated me. Even as a child, I was spiritually dead, as it says in Ephesians 2, and I now know that.

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I was spiritually dead. He made me spiritually alive, realized my need of a forgiveness, my need of a

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Savior, and He reached into my wretched ten -year -old heart and saved me on that night.

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And it was definitely a change. It was a vivid change, not in my actions, but in my desires, and the burden was no longer there.

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That was just the beginning, though. I continued throughout my teen years to read the

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Bible, to read Scripture, as much as a teenager does, involved in so many other things. It was a priority.

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It was a priority, but it was a priority. I continued to attend church, saw the importance of church.

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But I was well into my twenties when the Lord revealed to me that I didn't know that I didn't know the depths of Scripture.

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I mean, I didn't know that I didn't know. I knew the Bible stories. I knew everything. I knew the gospel message.

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I could share the gospel. I wanted to share the gospel. But as far as understanding the depths of Scripture, which helps me to understand the depths of who my

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Lord is, I didn't know that I didn't know. And He used a series of events to give me that realization of how little

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I truly understood about Scripture. I didn't know what doctrine was. I knew that I didn't think I could lose my salvation.

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I'd been taught that in church, but I didn't know why. I couldn't take you to a passage of Scripture that talked about the perseverance of the saints.

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I couldn't have done it at that point. And the Lord used some circumstances to reveal that to me.

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When I first heard Bible teaching, that phrase rocked my world completely.

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I had heard sermons. Obviously, I know that now. I'd heard sermons, and there's nothing wrong with sermons.

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Sermons are powerful. They're sharing the truth of God's Word. But when I heard the Bible taught through a book, one verse at a time, it completely changed my thinking, and I became hungry, because I realized that finally the

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Lord revealed that I didn't know that I didn't know the depths of Scripture. I realized it. And so the journey began in my 20s of just a ravenous appetite to learn and to grow and to understand, because it allowed me to understand my

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Lord better. It allowed me to be able to share the blessed gospel better. When the Lord has gone on for decades, it continues to this day.

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Still hungry, still desiring to learn, still desiring to grow, still desiring to read the

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Word. And I learn and teach and learn, and I'm taught more and more every day.

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You learn better about the purpose and the importance of Christ's church. All of that became very real to me.

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It has become real, and it continues to grow as well. So my salvation experience, that's it.

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But it's more than just that. That sanctification process began, like I said, truly began at that point where I realized

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I didn't understand the depths of Scripture and continues to this day. So that's a couple of paragraphs to give a summary of where the

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Lord has done with me as far as my salvation goes. And when you said you began to hear the doctrines of God's sovereignty taught from the

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Scriptures, can you mention any source, any perhaps Bible teacher or church or radio or television program that was representing the doctrines of sovereign grace where you heard this?

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Oh sure, absolutely. It was a friend of mine who I grew up with. He grew up a

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Roman Catholic. We're the same age. We were born within six days of each other. So when we were 26, the

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Lord saved him. And he was hungry from the beginning.

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It was a course of a couple of years later, he asked me this first question that sort of set me on the course of realizing how little

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I knew. He said, that parable of the sower, which one of those four are truly saved?

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And I couldn't answer the question. I didn't know. And so I read the passage, that's

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Matthew 13. I read the Christ assessment of the parable to the disciples, and I read through that, and I still couldn't answer the question.

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And here I was, I've been a believer for almost two decades, and I couldn't answer this simple question. I mean, it's obvious now, it seems it's probably obvious to most of your listeners that truly know him,

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Satan will snatch that truth right away quickly, or the world and the desires of the world will rise up and it'll prove that your faith is not saving faith.

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And I began to learn through study that there are different levels of faith, and there's only one level of saving faith.

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You know, the devils, the demons believe in it says, and what is that, James 2 .19. And those first three are demon faith.

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Well, at least the demons believe, right? But only those in that fourth case where they produce fruit, some hundred, some sixty, some thirty -fold, are the ones that are truly saved.

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I now know that. That was the first thing the Lord did. That same guy,

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Jim Buds his name, my friend from my hometown Mount Juliet, Tennessee, he also eventually gave me a tape, a cassette tape, and it was from a guy

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I'd never heard of. He'd asked me, do you ever heard of this guy named John MacArthur? I'm sure most of your listeners have heard of John MacArthur.

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Yes, he's been a guest on my program. Oh, wonderful, wonderful.

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Well, he gave me a tape of John MacArthur. It was Matthew 7, 13, and 14, the wide and narrow gates.

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And I listened to that tape, and it was, I was, I didn't even think about it. I just assumed it was from a seminary class because it was from this pastor out in California.

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So he gave me, I asked for, and he gave me some of the subsequent tapes that went through the end of chapter 7, you know, down into the, you know, wide and narrow gates.

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And then, of course, apart from me, I never knew you, you know, built this house upon the sand, all of those passages.

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And he's teaching the Bible verse by verse through all of this passage of Scripture, Matthew 7.

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And the whole time, I think I'm listening to a seminary class. And I don't remember exactly how

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I found out otherwise, but this was, I found out it was just teaching from the pulpit on Sunday morning.

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And this is when I realized, this is Bible teaching. This guy is teaching the

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Bible like I've never heard anybody teach the Bible. And I was learning things. Eventually, I got to Ephesians.

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I got some, you know, some of the cassette tapes on Ephesians. Of course, it's going through the sovereignty of God and His call of man and, you know, predestined, all those things before the foundation of the world.

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And I didn't agree. I didn't agree with, you know, I'd always been taught whosoever will, right?

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So now, after intense study, I realized, well, you know, I've never studied this.

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How can I have an opinion when I've never studied it biblically? So when I started studying it biblically, that, you know,

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God is sovereign. You see

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God in control throughout history. And so as I continue to read and continue to study on my own,

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I developed, based on Scripture, what I know to be true. You know, what I believe, what

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I believe doesn't matter. I always say, what I believe doesn't matter. What matters is what's true. And my journey is to align my beliefs with what is true.

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And I've come to understand and know that Scripture is inerrant. It is without error because it comes from an infallible

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God, a God that cannot have error, that cannot be wrong, cannot be mistaken, who is always good.

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And it is sufficient. It is all I need. I don't need a vision. I don't need to hear a voice.

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If I hear a voice, it's probably demonic because, I mean, there's no way you can prove where a voice is coming from.

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People say that, well, God told me this. Well, how do you know it's God? So I learned all this from Scripture.

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And of course, in Hebrews, he tells us that he is now speaks to us through his Son, which his

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Son is the Word. And we know that. So the Word is true. It's all we need. And I've learned all this over these decades.

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And I've learned that this book, the

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Bible, is inspired by God. It is God. And I must believe it.

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And I must incorporate these truths into my life. And so when he says in Philippians chapter 4 or 6, you know, be anxious for nothing but everything in prayer by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving.

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Let your requests be made enough to God and the peace of God that passes all understanding will keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

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When I read that, why would I be anxious about anything?

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Because I have an avenue when I feel anxious to overcome that because he is

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God and this book is true. He is working out his plan and his purpose, regardless of what situations look like.

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And I should just trust that. I shouldn't be one that worries. It also, you know, with passages in Matthew and other places that warn us against worry, because worry is simply not trusting in God.

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And though I am not perfect, there are times that I worry. There's times that I'm anxious. But I'm reminded of these scriptures and I go to the

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Lord for strength and direction and peace because he is the God of all peace in any situation.

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And as an opportunity, you know, I try to share that. And speaking of opportunity,

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I don't proselyte for my position. There are times that we are thrown in front of the camera, in front of the national, international media in this case, and I'm not going to proselyte just looking for a chance to get

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God in there. But when somebody, when the Lord orchestrates a specific question where I have no other answer to give than the truth from what

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I know to be true from his word, I can't, I have to answer that way. And that's what I've done the few times that the

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Lord has laid those questions on the heart of others to ask me specifically. And so I've been completely upfront and honest with the fact that he's in control.

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And because of that knowledge, I am content. It doesn't mean

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I'm happy, but I'm always joy. My joy comes from the Lord. It doesn't mean that I'm sad.

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I'm satisfied at him. I'm not satisfied in my human weakness. But in all situations, content.

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Even the situation that transpired that you mentioned when we started about being, you know, our destiny, our planned event for several days in space station, the test flight we were on turned into something much more than that.

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And through it all, I was content because I know the Lord's running the show. And he's working on his plan and his purpose.

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And I appreciate the opportunity, Chris, you've given me here to try to elaborate a little bit on that, make it a little bit more clear maybe for some ones or some people that may have heard it.

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Amen. Well, we're going to our first commercial break. And if you have a question for Barry Wilmore, you could submit it to ChrisArnsett at gmail .com.

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Give us your first name, at least. City and state and country of residence. We only have time for a few questions, maybe one or two, actually, because Barry's going to be leaving earlier than we expected.

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He unexpectedly had to cut the interview in half. So we won't be taking a lot of questions today.

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But submit a question as soon as you can, because you never know, yours might be one of the ones we read.

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And our email address is ChrisArnsett at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors, including one of our latest sponsors,

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Lebanon Federal Credit Union in Lebanon, Pennsylvania. Don't go away.

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I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

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At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession, we embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's Word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our triune

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God. We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of scripture, loving, encouraging, and serving each other as the body of Christ.

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In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every

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Sunday. We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at TRBCCarlisle .org.

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That's TRBCCarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon.

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I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island.

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I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program hosted by my long -time friend and brother,

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Chris Arnzen, in the highest esteem, and I'm thrilled that you're listening today. I'm also delighted that Iron Sharpens Iron is partnering with one of my favorite resources for Reformed Christian literature for decades now,

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Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. Well, with the economic nightmare that we're all currently enduring,

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That's CVBBS .com, making the joy of reading the finest in Christian literature more affordable.

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Oh, and make sure that you tell them you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron radio.

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And don't forget, CVBBS .com is now shipping worldwide. We are now back with Barry, also known as Butch Wilmore, the astronaut who was stranded in space recently along with another astronaut for nine months after what was originally intended to be only an eight -day mission in space.

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And thankfully, he was rescued and is on the program today with us. And we do have quite a number of emails with questions for my guests, but we won't have time for many of them.

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Before I go to the first listener question, Barry, you had already mentioned it earlier when you said that you do not experience anxiety to any serious level because of your trust in God's sovereignty over all things.

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And one of the main things I wanted to ask you today was about what was going through your mind as a

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Christian and also as a believer in God's sovereignty when eight days turned into a month to two months to three months, and then finally nine months in space.

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Even the most seasoned of Christians might begin to be filled with anxiety.

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I hate to admit it, but I am filled with anxiety over far less things that are not even life -threatening in my life, even though I share a faith with you in the sovereignty of God.

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So tell us about what was going through your mind. Okay, I'm curious. I'll do that.

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Let me back up, though, before we get into the months. Let's go back to when we're rendezvousing with Space Station.

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So we're out there affecting the rendezvous, which would eventually culminate in docking to the

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Space Station. And when we started, for your listeners that may not know the story, we lost thrusters.

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We lost thrusters that enable us to maintain control of the spacecraft. Losing one or two or three, even, we're okay, unless they're all in the same direction, all the thrusters that control, you know, that point in the same direction.

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And it turns out this is the problem we had. We were losing thrusters. We were losing all aft -firing thrusters that pointed in the aft direction.

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And we have redundancy built into the spacecraft, and that redundancy allows us to have failures and continue.

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But we got to the point to where we went, we call it fault -tolerant, so we're dual fault -tolerant. I mean, we can have two failures and still control.

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We actually went beyond that, though. We went to pass zero fault -tolerant into loss of our sixth degree of freedom control, where we didn't have full control of the spacecraft.

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And that's not something that you would ever expect to happen.

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It's not something that has ever occurred in any spaceflight, human spaceflight in history, but it happened to us.

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And we knew, I knew that we either had to dock or we might not be able to make it back to Earth in that situation, because we didn't know why these thrusters were failing.

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They just were. So docking was imperative.

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The thought of not docking meant that we would have to return to Earth would be our other option.

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And again, in that situation, I wasn't sure that we had enough control of the spacecraft to where we would be able to do that.

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Now, we were a test flight. We planned for all types of contingencies. I've been,

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I went through test flight training many decades ago, and I've done multiple things in flight tests, including with NASA, you know, aircraft flight tests, but certainly also spacecraft flight tests.

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That's why I was in the position I was in because of my background. So realizing the situation was dire is not an unfair term.

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I think that it was a dire situation. We either docked or we left and not sure if we could come back.

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And then we have other modes of the spacecraft where we could try to get those thrusters back. But the reason they were failing, and we know this even then, was that they weren't producing the thrust that was required.

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So the computers are taking them out of the equation because they weren't, their chamber pressure, their thrust levels were not sufficient.

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They'd gone below a certain threshold that we had set. Anyway, even during that,

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I was content because, again, the Lord, through the truth of his word, prepared me.

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I'm prepared for whatever situation. And that's not just unique to me. That's believers that know

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God's word and know his truth. And it's not just his sovereignty he's in control.

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It's all of scripture. You know, James tells us that this life is but a mist. It's like a vapor that fades away.

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And we're told to lay up for ourselves treasures in heaven, not on earth. And those treasures are those that we have the opportunity to share, and maybe that we influence.

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We don't say we can't even change a heart. I can't make a dead heart alive. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. I know that.

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But the Lord uses us as individuals, as vessels, to share the blessed truth of his word.

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You know, how will they hear unless somebody tells them? It also tells us in scripture. So, fully content in that my existence was bought on the cross.

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My eternal hope was bought on the cross. Jesus Christ endured all the sin that anyone that will believe, all that will believe will ever have experienced or in the punishment that I deserve, he bore that on the tree.

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And all of that flashes through my mind. And even in that situation, realizing the dire situation we were in,

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I was content. And I tell that story because it sort of parlays into the next.

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When you're on space station and the situation isn't dire, I mean, it's not like you either dock or you may not live.

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It's just different than what you planned. That is not near as severe as the one that I just, the situation

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I just described. And was I happy? No, I wasn't happy.

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I didn't stay at NASA to go long duration, spend long duration on the space station.

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I had done that. I'd been the commander of the space station a decade prior. And the reason

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I stayed at NASA was personal reasons as far as job and employment, because I got girls, a couple of girls to put through college, but also the chance to be a part of this first flight of a spacecraft.

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It's only the sixth spacecraft, human rated spacecraft that NASA has put in in the history of its existence.

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So, this was the sixth, first flight of a spacecraft and having an opportunity to work on this.

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And eventually I became the commander was the reason that I stayed. And it wasn't to do, not that what we do on space station is very important, but there are other people who want to do that, qualified to do that as am

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I, but that's not, that wasn't the purpose. So anyway, that whole transition of mindset was something that I had to do because I was there and there was no changing that.

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And as those weeks, we were first trying to figure out if we can possibly come back on, on Starliner or not.

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Those weeks turned into months, as you said, it turned into, you know, almost 10 months by the end. And you just did it at the time, trusting the

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Lord, regardless, no different than here, situations in life. You know, there's many people that, though this was a very visible, obviously a visible issues transition of, of what we, our perception, what we thought would, you know, how life was going to be, was very visible for those that were paying attention because it was kind of the global media.

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It's very minor compared to what other people are dealing with. And I know that, I knew that. And, and, and that allowed me, it helped me to put that into a proper perspective.

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And all that I attribute to the Lord and his, his grace and his mercy and his, his, you know, the true grace that I don't even know him at all, much less know the depths of scripture.

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And I'm still learning depths of scripture and, and that have an attitude of being content.

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I'm, I'm not that at all, if it's not for my Lord. And I know that. And it's humbling that he even puts you in a position to where you can realize that and live it out and, and, and then to have it kind of, you know, broadly sent out to where others see that as well.

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And that's humbling as well. To him be the glory, to him be the, the praise, to him be the honor, because without my

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Lord, I am nothing. I have no hope. I have an eternal torment is my eternal destiny.

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If my Lord doesn't reach into my wretched sinfulness and transform me and save me and forgive me.

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And I know that in every moment of life. And that is strengthening. Amen.

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Well, we have a listener question. This is a first time questioner.

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Denine in West Covina, California. Do you consider the all -female

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Blue Origin space flight in quotes, a mockery of the actual space program and qualified astronauts?

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Absolutely not. You know, there are some people that drive around in a 80 ,000 plus dollar

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Cadillac and other people drive around in a, in a Volkswagen bug. They're still getting transported.

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They're still doing things. They're still involved in whatever, you know, transportation things are taking place. I don't look at one and say that one.

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Um, I don't see it as a mockery. I, I, I see it as, uh, an opportunity, you know, for what's important in life, uh, what the focus on, um, what is meaningful.

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And some of these, some of the events of life are much less meaningful than others. And my prayer is that those that are involved in anything in life where they see it as meaningful, if that's your end -all be -all, it's not.

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The end -all be -all is knowing the Lord. That's what, you know, in Ecclesiastes, and I think it was Solomon that wrote it.

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And the end of chief end of man is to know God and honor him and worship him and glorify him in all you do.

33:29

And that's what I would point anybody to. Now, I don't see that as, as being anything other than just another event in time.

33:37

And like this thing that happened with me, that too will be forgotten eventually. Well, Denine, since you're a first -time questioner, you have won a free

33:46

New American Standard Bible. Make sure you give us your full mailing address in California, and cvbbs .com,

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Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, will ship the Bible out to you. We have Seth in Hummelstown, Pennsylvania.

34:00

Uh, he has two questions. Uh, you somewhat already addressed this, but you were more discussing earlier on, uh, declaring your faith to the general public.

34:15

Seth's question specifically is, did you have opportunities to share your faith with other astronauts?

34:24

Absolutely. Yes. Um, and I pray the Lord will use the word, the truth of this word, that we shared and transform them as well.

34:32

Absolutely. Amen. The second question is, what did you do for a devotional quiet time while in space?

34:43

Uh, I, you know, space station is busy, very busy. Um, I did listen to some, some, some videos.

34:52

I do have, I did have a Bible, a digital Bible, not a standard page Bible. And I read through some of Isaiah.

35:00

I tied into my local church and also that friend of mine, Jim Mudd, he's an elder in his church in Mount Juliet, Tennessee.

35:06

I tied into those services every week. As soon as those services were over on Sunday, uh, it was later in the day, um, for us, cause the time difference, they'd finish around five 30 in the evening.

35:16

When they'd finished, I was looking forward to the next week already. So it's not the same as being at church, but when that's all you have, the worship, you know,

35:26

I'd sit there and I'd sing along with the congregation as well and involve myself in it.

35:32

Um, like I said, it's not the same as being there, but it's certainly a wonderful substitute when you have nothing else.

35:37

And for that, I was obviously grateful, very grateful. Praise God. Uh, we have

35:45

Andrew in Brooklyn, New York, and he's asking a question you've already just answered.

35:54

Uh, he also asks a group of people who largely hold to evolution and a belief in an old earth.

36:03

I've been a space geek my whole life and cannot wait to see astronauts on the moon again.

36:10

Uh, I, I guess what he means is have you had a chance to evangelize, uh, your fellow scientists who are largely hold holding to evolution and a belief in an old earth?

36:26

You know, I know that I will not change someone's opinion on creation versus evolution, but I am open with sharing the truth that evolution is a theory.

36:49

Theories, you know, it's scientific theory, meaning it has assumptions, theory, hypothesis embedded in the quote, science, physics, physical science.

37:04

There's nothing in Scripture that contradicts physical science except for miracles. You know, science has to be repeatable.

37:12

It's something that you assess and you repeat and you study. Miracles are not repeatable.

37:18

So, with the exception of miracles that we see in Scripture, like creation itself is, is a magnanimous miracle.

37:27

There's nothing in Scripture that contradicts with physical science.

37:33

Two plus two is four. It's always four. It can't be anything other than four. That's physics. So, there are some, some theoretical science, however, that would differ from what

37:44

God's word says. And I just try to share with people, if we get into those discussions, you know,

37:51

I can't make them understand that God's word is absolutely true, that God says that he created and made by the breath of his mouth, you know, it came into existence, you know, and the day four, and he made the stars also, the magnanimous trillions of billions of trillions of gazillions of stars.

38:10

He spoke into existence, he says in that day four, as if almost like an afterthought.

38:16

It's not. I'm just saying that's the way it's presented in that, in that passage. And I can't make them believe that or understand that.

38:23

That's the work of the Holy Spirit. I too thought that maybe there was a chance, this is many, many decades ago, that theistic evolution and was something that might be true, that God used evolutionary, you know, evolutionary times to create and to evolve things into existence.

38:44

And then I realized, like I did many other things that I didn't know, I never studied it in Scripture. So I went to Scripture and I studied it in Scripture, and it's not there.

38:56

There is no evidence, nothing in Scripture that would anyway, you can really, if you just use

39:02

Scripture to discern Scripture, which is what we're called and how we should do it, because it's the only place you can find absolute truth is within Scripture.

39:11

If you're going outside of Scripture trying to prove Scripture, it's hard. But when you use

39:16

Scripture to prove Scripture, evolution, theistic evolution is not there. God is almighty, all -knowing, omnipresent.

39:26

He's everywhere, all the time. He's the creator of all. He's more than I can even fathom or imagine.

39:31

When I start to look at the science, the true science, physics that's in existence, even biological science, even the human body and just the processes that take place in life, you've got to really have a lot of faith in evolutionary processes.

39:52

There's not any evolutionary process that's been proven. There's evolution of species.

40:02

You can go back to a certain species and you can grow species of dog or whatever you hand, and the

40:08

Word addresses that when it talks about various kinds, from this kind and that kind.

40:16

But as far as evolution to higher beings and coming from a

40:21

Big Bang into something that became a fish that somehow jumped up on land, and from there we got person, that's impossible.

40:32

It can't happen. True science proves that. Theoretical science would say otherwise, but that's what it is.

40:41

It has theory, hypothesis, and assumptions embedded in it. That was a long, long answer to a short question, sorry about that.

40:49

No, do not apologize. You were being thorough. We have another listener who

40:55

I believe is a first -time questioner, but I've known him for years, and I usually don't give full names, but since this is a pastor,

41:05

I will give his full name and a plug for his church. Pastor Peter Muth of Harvest Bible Church in Gilbert, Arizona has a question.

41:17

Can you please speak to those who have sadly embraced the growing flat earth conspiracy, especially those

41:25

Christians who use the Bible to claim that not only is the earth flat, but that the book of Genesis claims that the sun and moon are literally in the firmament and that space does not truly exist, but that there is water above the firmament?

41:44

On top of all that, this is my words, not Peter's, the few flat earthers that I have encountered will add to that and call men like my guest and anybody involved in the aerospace industry liars and people who are involved in great deception.

42:05

But that would include my father, who I told Barry before the program.

42:12

My father was an employee of Grumman Aerospace for many years and was on the team that designed the lunar module that landed on the moon in 1969.

42:24

But if you could respond to Peter's question, Barry. Yeah, flat earthers.

42:32

It goes back to what I said earlier a little bit. Physics. I can mathematically define orbital mechanics, the orbit of planets, solar systems, the orbit within galaxies.

42:46

I can mathematically show that, prove that. There is no physics that works.

42:55

And who is the author of physics? Who is the author of truth? God is. There's no physics that fits a flat earth theory.

43:06

It doesn't exist. There's no way that you can have a day -night cycle that we see and we understand.

43:13

There's no physics that would support that. When I say that I went to space,

43:20

I left the confines of the earth, the gravitational forces associated with the earth, and went above the atmosphere into this realm of a vacuum that we term space.

43:34

I can tell you honestly, I'm being honest. I'm not lying. I was there. I looked back at the firmament.

43:40

I orbited the planet every 90 minutes for the 264, or 84,

43:45

I don't know, however many days we were gone. I think it was 284, I think.

43:51

Anyway, and I understand the science of orbital mechanics and how that works and how that operates.

43:59

And I can tell you that I was really there. I can tell you that I looked down and saw shooting stars entering our atmosphere from above.

44:07

I wasn't looking up. I saw it down, and that all that science associated with that is true.

44:13

And I also know that God's Word, it speaks metaphorically in areas, the four corners of the earth.

44:19

It uses that term. It's descriptive. It's saying in the edges of the earth, that's as far as you can go.

44:28

And at the time, we know that. And Joshua talks about in the valley of Ajalon and Gibeon, the sun stood still.

44:36

That's from the vantage point of the viewer. It looked like the sun didn't move for a day. I don't know exactly how the

44:45

Lord did that. It was a miracle. But from that vantage point, the obvious thing is that likely the earth stopped spinning for that day.

44:53

And from the vantage point of the viewer as written in Scripture, the sun stopped.

44:59

And we know that, and we see that descriptive language in Scripture. And especially when you line up with what we do and what the

45:09

Lord has revealed in science, it makes it very clear. People ask me that,

45:14

I've had people that know me, know me well, and know that I'm not a person that lies.

45:23

You can trust me if I say something. I'm not saying I've never lied, but I try to be honest.

45:29

And I can tell them, I can say, yes, we absolutely went to the moon every single time we said we did.

45:35

And footprints are still there because the moon surface is a vacuum. There's no wind. They're still there.

45:41

I can say that. And they'll say, well, I'm not convinced. And I'm like, well, I just told you. It's absolutely true.

45:47

No doubt. So you're telling me that you don't believe me. Why would you not believe me? By giving you a reason to think that I'm a dishonest person.

45:56

So to your listeners, and I appreciate the question from, I'm sorry, the pastor's name in Arizona. Peter Muth, M -U -T -H.

46:03

Peter. Peter, I appreciate your question. I appreciate the opportunity to respond to it, that physics is from God, physical science is from God, theoretical science has all kinds of assumptions, like a theory, hypothesis embedded in the science.

46:21

Therefore, it may not line up with scripture. Physics does, except for where there are miracles. Again, you can't repeat a miracle.

46:28

Science has to be as repeatable. That's how we assess it. And all of these things that I've shared, the earth is round.

46:36

I've seen it. I've experienced it from beyond the planet. And the science that the

46:42

Lord gave us backs that up as well. Thank you, Peter. And send me your physical mailing address so we can get a free

46:50

New American Standard Bible out to you. Compliments of CVBBS and also compliments of the publishers of the

46:56

NASB, nasbible .com. That kind of is a good dovetail, that last question, to address people, even those that have nothing to do with flat earth theory.

47:12

There are some out there who deny that the moon landing ever occurred, etc.

47:17

And some of them will refer to comments that astronaut Buzz Aldrin made publicly.

47:24

Can you address that? Sure. I've seen some of those interviews where they said the video of them landing on the moon, and they take that out of context, like scripture can be taken out of context.

47:41

I don't remember exactly what his comment was, but he said that wasn't real.

47:47

That was animation. And what he meant was the video that they showed while they landed on the moon was animation.

47:55

They didn't have cameras on the moon videoing them as they landed. That's what he meant.

48:00

And they take that little snippet when he says that's not real. What he's meaning is the video's not real.

48:10

Right. Well, that should clear up that mystery for those skeptics out there.

48:17

One thing that we didn't cover that I wanted to, but I was fearing that we didn't have time to, since we do have a few minutes left.

48:25

Could you tell us about how you fell in? Oh, I'm still with you. I'm sorry. My end said it looked like we lost you, so I'm still with you.

48:33

Anyway, what happened was Neil was coming down the ladder. They had a mechanism with a cable, a handle where he pulled and the cable released a camera that fell out of the side of the lunar module that was pointed at the steps.

48:51

And that's how the video was being down from that camera that was positioned in that area, again, released by a cable that Neil pulled on so that you could get that video.

49:03

So there's answers to all those questions. And again, the naysayers, the conspiracy theorists or whatever you want to call them, they'll take snippets here and there just like everything.

49:14

You see that all the time. I've had snippets of some things I've said, and they've made it appear to be that I said something exactly the opposite of what

49:21

I said. If you listen to the whole thing, that happens all the time. So people have an agenda and they build their story around pieces and snippets of this and that to put forward their agenda.

49:35

And that's sad. And what I was just about to ask you is, how did you first fall in love with the whole concept of space and astronomy?

49:48

And how did you receive a desire to become an astronaut initially? Yeah, I think that's embedded within us.

49:59

Not everybody is the same, but certainly that exploration, inquisitive mindset is what the

50:07

Lord put within me. My mom often said that my first word was not mom or dad, like most children.

50:15

It was why. Why does that work that way? How does that work? I've always, always been inquisitive in that way.

50:24

And the thought of space flight and the unknown of that, I didn't know how you flew in space. I didn't know anything about it.

50:31

But it was a point when I eventually, patriotic tug, do my part for my country is what got me into the military and how would

50:38

I best use my degree, my electrical engineering degree, maybe something in aviation, landing on aircraft carriers, kind of that process going forward eventually into test pilot training.

50:47

And then the thought of you can't fly any higher and faster at the time than the space shuttle.

50:53

Maybe that would be something that's intriguing and to understand how that works. And that's kind of the process step -by -step that the

51:00

Lord used to draw me to that, into that unknown. And I'm very grateful for that, obviously.

51:07

Any plans that you know of that NASA has for you personally in the area of space travel?

51:18

Nothing that I know now. I mean, I've just been back a month and a half from our, you know, unexpected journey and haven't had those conversations yet.

51:28

And I'm not sure exactly even what NASA's plans, what my wife and I had decided maybe what we might do.

51:34

And we're kind of in that decision process, that prayerful decision process about our future as well. So right now, unknown.

51:41

I appreciate the question, though. It's unknown. And we are out of time.

51:46

So I apologize to those listening who wanted to have their questions read live on the air, but we didn't have time.

51:53

We had time for me to read a lot more than I thought originally. But I want to thank you so much for being such a wonderful guest.

52:02

I hope that you return to Iron Trump and Zion Radio. Maybe next time you can even be on with us for the full two hours.

52:08

But I also wanted to make sure I plugged before we go off the air Providence Baptist Church in Pasadena, Texas, where you are an elder.

52:16

The website for those of you listening who are residents of the

52:22

Pasadena, Texas area or are traveling through there or you have family, friends, and loved ones in or near there, the website is providence -bc .com,

52:35

providence -bc .com. And on June 2nd, next month, they will also be having a conference, the

52:42

Law, the Gospel, and Pastoral Ministry, featuring Tom Hicks and Fred Malone, who

52:48

I've had on this program in the past. And I hope that you send my greetings to Fred, Brother Barry.

52:57

And thank you so much for being such a wonderful guest, and I look forward to your return, as I said.

53:04

Thank you so much, Chris. It's been wonderful. And just praise the Lord for the opportunity to share a few thoughts.

53:10

And I pray that your listeners will always seek to glorify Him in all they do. Amen. Well, thank you so much.

53:17

And folks, please don't go away because, as I said earlier, we have Dr. Jason Lyle joining us for the second half of the program.

53:25

He is a Christian astrophysicist and a young earth creationist, literal six -day creationist.

53:32

So, if you have any questions for Jason, submit them to chrisarenson at gmail .com, chrisarenson at gmail .com.

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Don't go away. We are going to be right back after this station break. Take care,

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01:08:54

And don't forget to mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Before I begin my conversation with my second guest,

01:09:04

Dr. Jason Lyle, who is not only a Christian astrophysicist and a young earth creationist, literal six -day creationist, and founder and president of the

01:09:20

Biblical Science Institute, whose website is biblicalscienceinstitute .com

01:09:25

and also .org. Before I welcome him to the program, I have some important reminders to you.

01:09:33

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01:09:39

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01:10:02

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01:10:37

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01:10:50

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01:11:02

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01:11:07

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01:11:13

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01:11:22

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you could send in a question to Dr.

01:11:29

Jason Lyle, Christian astrophysicist, young earth creationist, and founder and president of biblicalscienceinstitute .com

01:11:38

and .org, and he was just so magnificent last Thursday as keynote speaker at the

01:11:46

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio free pastors luncheon. I continue to receive a steady stream of rave reports of people who were just blown away and blessed who were in attendance last

01:11:58

Thursday, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Jason Lyle. Well, thanks for having me on,

01:12:06

Chris. Long time no see. Yeah, well, it wasn't that long. And could you tell us about perhaps some of the experiences you had last week at the luncheon?

01:12:17

I know that a lot of people were vying for your attention, and some of them even invited you to speak at their own churches.

01:12:25

Yeah, we had several that asked if I could come and speak with them and speak to their congregation. I'm always happy to do that.

01:12:31

We'll try to work it into the schedule. We get a lot of those events now. We actually get more requests now than I can answer, but we try to work them in at some point.

01:12:39

It was a great experience, a lot of great people. And I love the fact that there were different denominations there too.

01:12:45

That's such a blessing. People think that different denominations fight, but more than that, sometimes that happens, but more than that, we love each other because we understand the essentials, the gospel, the

01:12:57

Bible, the inerrancy of the word of God. Those are the main and plain things that we agree on. And I just had a great time meeting a lot of great people, and I was grateful to meet them and chat with them.

01:13:09

And some of them had told me that they'd been blessed by the Biblical Science Institute, and others were unfamiliar with it and were very happy to connect and perhaps speak at their church at some point.

01:13:19

Well, I wanted to speak with you in the brief time that we have today about what science, what true science actually teaches about astronomy that many in mainstream secular science would reject.

01:13:41

They have a different paradigm, a different story as to what they believe is true science.

01:13:48

Can you go through some of those major things that would be at odds with each other from your beliefs to an average secular thought?

01:13:56

Certainly. We've learned so much in the last three years, frankly, thanks to the

01:14:02

James Webb Space Telescope. And that was, of course, funded by taxpayer money, so thank you for your contribution to that.

01:14:10

And although the purpose of it was to verify the Big Bang and learn details about how our universe allegedly exploded into existence 13 .8

01:14:19

billion years ago, just about everything that's found has challenged the expectations of the secularists.

01:14:25

I was just reading some papers today, some technical papers, where they're talking about the metallicity of distant galaxies.

01:14:32

Metallicity refers to the fact that a galaxy contains elements, heavy elements like oxygen and carbon, whereas the

01:14:39

Big Bang is only supposed to produce the three lightest elements, hydrogen, helium, and a little bit of lithium. And all the heavier elements are supposed to be produced much later in the cores of stars that form later, millions, hundreds of millions of years after the

01:14:52

Big Bang. And yet we're finding them in galaxies that are very far away that secularists believe are very early galaxies because in their view, we're essentially looking back in time.

01:15:04

We're not seeing the galaxies as they are today, but as they were when the light left. So the expectation was these most distant galaxies should be very metal poor and the earliest ones should have no metals at all, none of the heavier elements.

01:15:18

And James Webb has found that they have heavy elements and some of them have heavy elements that are comparable to nearby galaxies.

01:15:25

And that's something that the secularists did not expect. It is something that we creationists expected.

01:15:31

And in fact, I wrote about that back in 2022 in January. I wrote about my predictions for what the

01:15:37

James Webb Space Telescope would detect. And that was one of my predictions is that it would find metals, heavy elements in these distant galaxies.

01:15:44

And that's what we're finding. And I also predicted that we would find a lot more galaxies than the secularists were expecting because they think you're looking back in time.

01:15:53

And therefore, at a certain distance, you're looking so far back in time that there were no galaxies. And so the universe really ought to be empty beyond a certain distance.

01:16:01

And I predicted that it wouldn't be that way, but that it would have galaxies just like nearby, because I know that God made the galaxies.

01:16:08

I don't believe that they popped into existence after a Big Bang or that they formed after a Big Bang. And then

01:16:14

I predicted that these galaxies would be massive, fully formed, mature galaxies rather than the low mass baby galaxies that were predicted.

01:16:23

Because again, in the secular view, when you look out far, it's like looking back in time. And so you ought to see galaxies as they were allegedly billions of years ago.

01:16:31

And so they were expecting to see baby galaxies, but we haven't seen that. We've seen fully mature, massive galaxies, galaxies that are comparable in mass to nearby galaxies.

01:16:41

And that was my prediction that I made back in January of 2022. And it's nice to see that science has confirmed what we creationists expected.

01:16:51

So anybody who claims that, well, creationists don't make any successful predictions in science, they haven't kept up with the news, because that is wrong.

01:17:00

It's the secular predictions that were completely wrong. And the last few years have been very exciting in astronomy.

01:17:06

And those are just some of the latest results. But there's a lot of evidence that conflicts with the Big Bang story, the secular view of origins, and confirms the biblical view that God created in six days and that he did this a few thousand years ago.

01:17:18

And those are just some tidbits. We have Clyde in Rochester, New York, who wants to know,

01:17:26

I have heard even Christians and some who might even describe themselves as young earth

01:17:33

Christians who have no problem with the Big Bang theory. Why is this a problem? Well, the

01:17:39

Big Bang, first of all, it's like Darwinian evolution. It was designed to explain the universe apart from God.

01:17:46

The inventor of the Big Bang, although he did believe in God, he did not believe in Genesis. He rejected a literal Genesis.

01:17:52

And he believed that he believed in what's called methodological naturalism, which is that basically, when you do science, you should pretend that God doesn't exist, whether he really does or not.

01:18:02

And so he believed that you couldn't invoke the miraculous to explain the origins of the universe. So it's designed to be a secular alternative to Scripture.

01:18:12

Secondly, it contradicts Scripture. The Bible teaches that God created in six days. The Big Bang requires that the universe came into existence 13 .8

01:18:22

billion years ago and not in six days, and that things formed over hundreds of billions, even billions of years.

01:18:29

Even the earth is not supposed to have formed in the secular view until 4 .5 billion years ago. And so that's the third thing, is the order is different.

01:18:36

Even for people who say, well, maybe the days weren't literal days, the days of Genesis, which is not defensible hermeneutically.

01:18:43

We know from Scripture, God defines the days in terms of earth rotations, in terms of an evening and a morning.

01:18:48

So they're ordinary days. But even if you tried to say, well, they were long ages, it doesn't work.

01:18:53

The order's different. The Big Bang has stars forming billions of years before the earth.

01:19:00

And the Bible teaches that the earth is made on day one. In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth, and the earth's right there on day one.

01:19:07

The Holy Spirit's hovering over the surface of the waters, and then stars are made on day four. So the Big Bang is not compatible with biblical creation.

01:19:15

The mechanism is different in that the Big Bang is essentially atheistic in nature, even though some people try to add

01:19:20

God to it. That defeats the purpose. The timescale is different. The order of events is different. Everything about the

01:19:26

Big Bang is different from what the Bible teaches. People try to make it compatible with the Bible because they get intimidated by secular scientists.

01:19:34

And they think, well, a lot of scientists believe in the Big Bang. That must be the way it happened. But I got to tell you, the latest data from the

01:19:41

James Webb Space Telescope is not consistent with what the

01:19:46

Big Bang advocates were expecting. And instead, it's very consistent with what we biblical creationists were expecting.

01:19:52

So now's a good time to, if you're one of those people who had believed in the Big Bang, now's a good time to start believing what the

01:19:58

Bible says instead. Now, in your experience being in the scientific world, what has been some of the responses by secular scientists who held to the traditional views of billions of years old in regard to the age of the universe and all that?

01:20:24

What are they saying about the new telescope evidence? Yeah, so the fun thing about that is

01:20:32

I was so confident that their predictions would be wrong, that I also predicted what they would say when their predictions were said to be wrong.

01:20:43

And basically my prediction was rather than give up the Big Bang, most of them will simply push galaxy formation back to an earlier time.

01:20:50

In other words, they still believe in the Big Bang. They still believe that there's a distance at which you won't see any galaxies, but it must be farther.

01:20:57

We need to build a bigger, bigger James Webb Space Telescope to see that distance. So they're basically saying that galaxies were formed at a much earlier period.

01:21:04

That's what I predicted they would say. And that is exactly what they're saying. That galaxy formation happened at an early time.

01:21:10

It must have happened much quicker than they expected. The vast majority have taken that route.

01:21:16

Now, there have been a very few that are actually exploring alternatives to the

01:21:21

Big Bang, but they're secular alternatives. The so -called tired light model, which was invented by Fritz Zwicky back in the 30s,

01:21:30

I believe, as an early alternative to the Big Bang. The Big Bang was invented in 1931. Fritz Zwicky came up with an idea called the tired light model, which is an alternative.

01:21:39

That's being revisited. There are actually some people who are trying that out. I don't think that's going to work either.

01:21:44

It's got its problems, but it's actually becoming cool to challenge the Big Bang again. And so that's kind of encouraging to me that even secularists are recognizing, at the very least, they're recognizing that the standard model doesn't work.

01:21:58

It doesn't match the observations that we're seeing. Now, is it entirely incompatible, in your opinion, with a

01:22:12

Christian understanding of science, and even with the evidence of this new telescope, to believe that God used some kind of a cosmic explosion in the very beginning when he was creating the universe?

01:22:33

I think it's contrary to Scripture. The Bible speaks of God creating the heaven and the earth.

01:22:39

In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. So the earth was already in the heavens when God first made it. And the earth requires dimensionality.

01:22:46

So it can't have sprung from an explosion or anything like that. And the other objects in the universe, the luminous objects, they didn't exist for the first three days because God made the stars, the sun, moon, the stars also.

01:22:58

Those are made on day four. Galaxies are made of stars. So galaxies are made on day four because the stars are made on day four.

01:23:04

So I would say it's not compatible with what the Bible teaches. And granted, we all have inconsistencies in our theology.

01:23:11

We all have places where we have beliefs that don't line up with the Bible. And our beliefs are wrong when they don't line up with the

01:23:18

Bible. So I'm not saying you can't be saved or anything like that unless you believe in the six days of creation.

01:23:24

But I am suggesting that the Big Bang or any version of it is not consistent with a proper hermeneutical reading of the

01:23:32

Bible. It's just contrary to what the Bible teaches. And it was designed to be that way.

01:23:37

It was designed to be an alternative to Genesis, not a confirmation of it. All right.

01:23:42

We have another listener in Sharpsburg, Georgia. Lou says,

01:23:48

Hello, brothers. I just recently heard the term young earth evolutionists.

01:23:54

Is Dr. Lyle familiar with this? Yes, I am. It refers somewhat disparagingly to creationists who believe in an incredible amount of rapid speciation, that animals that we would generally think are different kinds are, in fact, part of the same kind.

01:24:17

And there are some people who sort of hold to that view. I don't take a strong position on that because I think there's biblically allowed flexibility in terms of what are the kinds of animals that God created.

01:24:30

Basically, a kind of animal from the Hebrew word mean is a reproductively isolated unit.

01:24:37

So cats and dogs are two different kinds, but all cats are the same kind. And so lions are genetically related to that little house cat that you come home and pet.

01:24:48

We think they're both descended from two cats that would have been on Noah's Ark. There's a field of study called Brahmanology that tries to tries to figure out by scientific means guided by scripture, what are the means, what are the kinds that God created?

01:25:05

And those that basically have relatively few kinds, some creationists say, you've gone too far.

01:25:11

You're believing in more variation than the Bible really allows. I'm not a biologist, so I don't get into the details of that.

01:25:18

But that's basically what that's referring to is the degree of speciation. And I think all creationists believe that speciation occurs.

01:25:27

None of us believe that Noah had two of every breed of dog on board Noah's Ark. I think we all agree that there were two dogs on Noah's Ark, and you can get all those different breeds later.

01:25:36

It's just a question of how much speciation has occurred. And that's something that I'm leaving up to the creation biologists who have more knowledge in that area.

01:25:45

And tell us about all the areas that you as an astrophysicist are actually daily involved in, in your areas of study and teaching.

01:26:02

What would be the parameters of those studies as an astrophysicist? Well, I mean, the universe is a big topic, literally the biggest topic other than God so you can't stay abreast of everything.

01:26:15

I try to be a little bit of a generalist. I read news articles and things like that about the latest discoveries that the

01:26:23

James Webb is making. I'm really trying to stay up on that because that is huge right now. The James Webb Space Telescope is a wonderful instrument.

01:26:30

It's extremely well designed, and the discoveries that we're making from it are very confirmatory of biblical creation.

01:26:36

So I try to stay abreast of those issues, as well as issues, anything that pertains to something that could be used as a sort of clock.

01:26:45

And there are lots of processes in space that happen at a known rate that we can measure. And a lot of those, you run them backward and you find that they can't be billions of years old, like the decay of Earth's magnetic field.

01:26:57

We've been able to measure that for the last 100, 150 years. It is decaying. You run it back to creation.

01:27:03

The magnetic field has been 20 times stronger at creation, but you run it back 60 ,000 years in a hypothetical past, and it's way too strong for life.

01:27:11

It ripped the iron out of your blood. It's stronger than a neutron star at that point. And I try to take a look at, OK, what are the secular explanations for that?

01:27:18

The secularists would say, well, it hasn't always decayed that way. It's part of a cycle. There's a magnetic dynamo that recharges the magnetic field.

01:27:27

And then I look at, OK, what are the problems with that? And I think there are problems with the dynamo model. It requires the rotation axis to be aligned with the magnetic field axis.

01:27:35

The Earth's about 8 degrees off, which is relatively close. But for Neptune and Uranus, way off. So that's not going to work.

01:27:41

So I try to keep up on those issues. My graduate research was on solar astrophysics.

01:27:48

I haven't kept up with that as much. It's interesting to me. It's less relevant to origins, which is one reason why

01:27:54

I picked it for my dissertation. I wanted to be able to do genuine good science and get through and not have to worry too much about political issues.

01:28:02

But now that I'm out and I'm doing research pertaining to creation, I'm very interested in fields like relativity.

01:28:08

We've had some people that have challenged, well, really only one person that's challenged my anisotropic synchrony convention.

01:28:14

So I've looked at his results. I've refuted him. He's tried to answer my reputation.

01:28:20

I'm going to answer that. He's not right about that. But in any case, I try to stay up on those issues as well.

01:28:25

But really, as much as I can, I try to look at all of it. And you can't because it's too big. But the newsworthy issues are the ones

01:28:33

I try to look at, the ones that come up on your newsfeed. And well, that's interesting. And there's an extrasolar comet that's swinging by in the next few years.

01:28:41

That's something I'll be very interested in when it gets a little closer to us. So things like that, things that are relevant to origins are where I really try to stay connected, challenging the secular model and looking at natural processes that cannot have been going on for billions of years, like magnetic field decay or the internal heat of the giant planets, things of that nature.

01:29:00

Now, there has been a controversy that I don't know how long ago it rose up into the awareness of the public.

01:29:14

But there is a controversy over a theory known as geocentricism.

01:29:22

This would be a concept rejected by the vast majority, if not every secular scientist, but I think as well would be rejected by most

01:29:32

Bible -believing Christian scientists. And I don't mean Christian scientists in regard to the

01:29:38

Christian science cult founded by Mary Baker Reddy. I always have to make that clear. I'm talking about scientists who are

01:29:45

Christians. But I know two people, one a

01:29:51

Roman Catholic apologist and one a theologically reformed

01:29:57

Protestant apologist. Neither of them are scientists, but they have embraced this and do publicly speak on it.

01:30:09

Can you tell us about this and can you define what it is and your opinions on it?

01:30:14

Yeah, geocentrism being rebranded as geocentricity, the idea that the

01:30:20

Earth is at the center of the solar system or perhaps the universe. And the original idea was that all the planets in the sun orbit around the

01:30:27

Earth. And that was a very popular idea throughout most of the history of astronomy, really until, in earnest, the 1600s when we came to recognize that that really doesn't hold water.

01:30:41

But as early as, oh, around 400 BC, there was at least one

01:30:46

Greek who realized that's not the best model. A Greek named Aristarchus actually estimated the distance to the moon pretty accurately using geometry, very clever.

01:30:59

And of course, we didn't even have telescopes back then. So, I mean, it was based on visual observations and geometry.

01:31:04

Brilliant. And then he also estimated the distance to the sun, not quite as accurately, but as good as he could do with the equipment that he had at the time.

01:31:12

And he realized that as far away as the sun is and as big as it looks, it has to be much bigger than the Earth. And he was right about that.

01:31:18

He didn't realize how much bigger. He thought maybe seven times bigger, when in fact, it's like 100 times bigger. But he thought, well, it'd be ridiculous for the big thing to orbit the little thing.

01:31:27

And he's right. In terms of mass, it's the smaller things that orbit the big things. So, it was really in the, well, there was that revival of heliocentrism, the idea that the planets orbit around the sun.

01:31:39

That was really in the 1500s with Copernicus. But not everybody believed it right away. Galileo had a big hand in that controversy because he didn't invent the telescope, but he was the first person to take a telescope and point it up and look at the heavens and write about what he saw.

01:31:56

And he had a pretty good telescope that he himself had built. And in January of 1610, he saw

01:32:01

Jupiter and he saw four little starlets that orbit around Jupiter. And he went out night after night and he could see that they were orbiting around Jupiter.

01:32:08

And that proved 100 % that not everything orbits the Earth. And so, because he could see it, he could see that these little things orbit the big thing.

01:32:15

And that made him realize that, oh, the Earth probably orbits the sun. And it does from a Newtonian perspective.

01:32:21

Now, you can attach coordinates to the Earth and say, Earth's origin is zero, and I'm going to measure everything relative to the

01:32:29

Earth. You can do that, but you can do that for anything. You can do that for Mars. You can do that for yourself.

01:32:34

I could talk about the Lyle -centric solar system and use my coordinates, but it would be very unnatural.

01:32:41

The laws of physics, as developed by Isaac Newton, as discovered by him, indicate that in terms of an inertial mass, the sun is the central mass of the solar system and the planets orbit around it.

01:32:54

And one of the predictions of that is that Venus would go through phases. Venus orbits the sun, and there's no doubt about that.

01:33:00

Because, and I've seen Venus, and based on the phases, you can tell where it is if it's on the far side of the sun or the near side.

01:33:06

And you can watch it orbit over the course of a year, year and a half, relative to us on the Earth.

01:33:12

So, there's no doubt that the planets orbit the sun and the Earth's one of them. Now, you could say, oh, but I'm going to make the

01:33:18

Earth the center and have all the other planets orbit the sun, but then the sun orbits the Earth. Mathematically, you can do that, but it's not an inertial frame.

01:33:27

And you can do that with any planet. You can do the same thing with Mars or Jupiter or Saturn. And so, people who want to select the

01:33:32

Earth and say it is uniquely non -moving, that's a fallacy. There's no logical basis for that.

01:33:38

More importantly, there's no scriptural basis for that. When the Bible speaks of the Earth not slipping or falling,

01:33:44

I think it's in Psalm 93, for example, the Earth shall not be moved. The Hebrew word there, mot, means to slip or fall or to be out of course.

01:33:52

The same word is used by the psalmist. He says, I shall not be moved. Now, I don't think

01:33:57

King David meant that he was going to be stationary in his whole life. I think he meant that he would not deviate from the path that the

01:34:03

Lord created for him. And so, that's the meaning. It's the same Hebrew word. So, those people who are trying to argue from Scripture do not have a leg to stand on.

01:34:10

And those people who are trying to argue for science that the Earth is uniquely unmovable do not have a leg to stand on.

01:34:16

The idea does not have logical support. Now, does geocentrism have advocates in the scientific arena at all that are credible scientists?

01:34:30

None that I'm aware of that would be astronomers, but I can't... I mean, we all have...

01:34:36

There's a lot of crazies out there, let's put it that way. So, I can't guarantee that there aren't any, but every astronomer

01:34:42

I know, whether secular or creationist, recognizes that the planets orbit the sun. And in fact, we would use that when calculating the positions of planets.

01:34:50

I've written computer software that calculates where the planets will be. And I don't assume the Earth's at the center.

01:34:55

I assume the sun's at the center and the Earth's orbiting the sun. If you don't do that, you won't get the right answer. I can tell you that.

01:35:01

Now, mathematically, again, you can move the coordinate system to the Earth and say it's the origin at zero and everything's moving relative to the

01:35:07

Earth, which it is. But you could do the same thing for Mars or Venus or myself. I could put myself at the center and say everything's moving relative to me, and it is.

01:35:16

But in terms of the laws of motion and the law of gravity, as discovered by Isaac Newton, there's no doubt that the sun is the central thing and the planets orbit around that, and relative to distant stars as well.

01:35:27

We know that from the Doppler shifts of stars, that when the Earth's on one side of the sun, you're moving toward the star. When the Earth's on the other side, you're moving away.

01:35:33

And we actually get a Doppler shift from that. So I think any astronomer would recognize that.

01:35:39

They might say that, well, mathematically, you can make the coordinate system the Earth.

01:35:44

I agree with that. But in terms of the laws of motion as developed by Newton and then expanded upon by Einstein, there's no doubt that in terms of the rest mass of the universe, the

01:35:55

Earth is orbiting the sun. Now, was it not the official position, perhaps not dogmatically, because in Roman Catholicism, dogma never changes, can never change.

01:36:11

But was it the, in some senses, the official position of Rome to have a geocentric view and those that opposed it were silenced, censored, or disciplined in some fashion?

01:36:31

Yes, there was some of that. There was some of that. The issue, again, came around the time of Galileo, when

01:36:37

Galileo really began advocating for a heliocentric solar system. He did get into some trouble for that.

01:36:44

But I think, and of course, he was Roman Catholic. And so there was some trouble there. But it was mainly, the main people who were pushing back against him were the scientists, to be honest, because they had just embraced the

01:36:56

Ptolemaic view of the solar system, which is geocentric and has the Earth at the center. And they were so enamored with that, they thought that Galileo couldn't possibly be right.

01:37:06

And so they pushed members of the church to try and declare that as heretical.

01:37:13

And not all of them did though. The Protestants didn't seem to have too much of a problem with that. I mean, some did, but some didn't.

01:37:19

We don't hear a lot about Kepler having these issues. Kepler lived at the same time as Galileo. And that was when in history?

01:37:26

Yeah, this would have been at the turn of the 1600s. So remember, Galileo sees the moons of Jupiter in 1610, and that's what really persuaded him of heliocentrism.

01:37:36

So around that time, and Kepler lived around that time too. Kepler didn't live as long as Galileo, but he also lived around that time.

01:37:43

And he pushed for heliocentrism as well. He developed the three laws of planetary motion, and they are heliocentric. But you don't hear about Kepler getting in trouble.

01:37:51

Partly, he was Protestant, and that makes a difference. But there were some people even who looked through Galileo's telescope, and they were persuaded.

01:37:58

There were some people who were persuaded. One of the things that really, I think, got Galileo into trouble is there was a new pope elected.

01:38:05

And forgive me, I'm not a church history expert. I forget the names of these different popes. But there was a new pope that was elected that seemed to be somewhat sympathetic to Galileo.

01:38:14

And Galileo's superiors gave

01:38:19

Galileo the impression that he could write about this heliocentric system if he gave the other side as well, which he did.

01:38:26

He wrote a book, a dialogue concerning the two -world system. And he presented an advocate for heliocentrism and an advocate for geocentrism.

01:38:36

And then there was a neutral party that was pretty well persuaded by the heliocentric arguments. But also, he gave the name to the geocentrist something like Simplicio or something like that, like Simpleton.

01:38:48

And he claimed he wasn't trying to make fun of the position that he had another excuse for that.

01:38:57

But it's like, yeah, maybe he shouldn't have done that. And then towards the end of the book, he actually had the Simpleton quote the pope.

01:39:04

And I think that's where he got into trouble. You don't take an idiot and have him spell out the words of your current pope.

01:39:10

I think that got him into trouble. So Galileo ended up being put under house arrest. He wasn't going to be burned at the stake or anything, but he was put under house arrest at one point.

01:39:21

And if you think that's troublesome, Galileo was wealthy. So think about being confined to the White House.

01:39:27

That would be sort of thick and dense. So it wasn't quite as terrible as most people think. But yes, he was tried and convicted and sentenced to house arrest for the rest of his life.

01:39:36

Okay, we are going to our final break today. And when we return, we're going to let you know about a speaking engagement that Dr.

01:39:45

Lyle has tomorrow night at Calvary Chapel of Quakertown, Pennsylvania.

01:39:51

And if you have questions of your own for Dr. Lyle, please submit them immediately because we are rapidly running out of time.

01:39:59

ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

01:40:06

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. Armored Republic exists to equip free men with tools of liberty to defend

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01:41:19

Such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

01:41:25

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

01:41:34

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in a tie in County Kildare, Ireland.

01:41:42

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

01:41:47

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Plumbing, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

01:41:59

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Plumbing is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

01:42:06

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

01:42:11

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

01:42:17

Hanover Presbytery built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

01:42:27

Protestant reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,

01:42:38

Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the triune God that continues in eternity.

01:42:44

For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Plumbing, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.

01:42:50

That's heritagepresbyterianchurch .com or call 678 -954 -7831.

01:42:57

That's 678 -954 -7831. If you visit, have them

01:43:03

Joe Roylian, Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener from Attoye in County Kildare, Ireland, send you.

01:43:23

Bill Sasser, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee. Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

01:43:33

Iron Sharpens Iron radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

01:43:50

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

01:43:56

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

01:44:10

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

01:44:19

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

01:44:27

This is Pastor Bill Sasser wishing you all the richest blessings of our

01:44:33

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

01:44:52

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

01:45:03

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.

01:45:10

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

01:45:28

Christ Jesus, the King, and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

01:45:35

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

01:45:44

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

01:45:59

That's 631 -696 -5711.

01:46:05

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:46:21

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

01:46:27

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

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and co -founder of New York Apologetics, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

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I'm Pastor Tim Bushong of Syracuse Baptist Church in Syracuse, Indiana, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Eli Ayala, founder of Revealed Apologetics and staff member with the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Joe Bianchi, president of Calvi Press Publishing in Greenville, South Carolina, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jake Korn of Switzerland Community Church in Switzerland, Florida, and the

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01:48:23

I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of the Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Comac, Long Island.

01:48:29

I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program hosted by my longtime friend and brother

01:48:35

Chris Arnzen in the highest esteem, and I'm thrilled that you're listening today.

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I'm also delighted that Iron Sharpens Iron is partnering with one of my favorite resources for Reformed Christian literature for decades now,

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Oh, and make sure that you tell them you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And don't forget, cvbbs .com

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is now shipping worldwide. I also want to remind our listeners that this program is paid for in part by my very dear longtime friend,

01:50:13

Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law of the law firm Buttafuoco & Associates.

01:50:19

If you're the victim of a very serious personal injury or medical malpractice anywhere in the

01:50:25

United States, call 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, or visit

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01:50:36

And please make sure you tell Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, that you heard about his law firm,

01:50:42

Buttafuoco & Associates, from Chris Arntzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I also want to remind our listeners that my next

01:50:49

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon will be held Thursday, September 18th at Church of the

01:50:57

Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, featuring as my keynote speaker for the second time at the luncheons,

01:51:04

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who happens to be a very close friend of my guest today, Dr.

01:51:09

Jason Lyle. And everything is free, not only your mission and your lunch and your opportunity to hear

01:51:17

Dr. White speak, but everyone who attends will receive free brand new books personally selected by me and donated by generous

01:51:26

Christian publishers all over the United States and United Kingdom. It's all free of charge. And if you'd like to register, just send me an email to ChrisArntzen at gmail .com

01:51:34

and put Pastors Luncheon in the subject line. That Sunday, the following Sunday, September 21st,

01:51:43

Dr. White will be preaching at the church where I am a member, Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

01:51:51

And this will be an opportunity for many of you who are pastors to visit another church on a

01:51:58

Sunday, because our worship services are not until 1 .30 p .m.,

01:52:03

because we are sharing the building where we worship with Carlisle Baptist Church, who owns the building, and we have our services after there.

01:52:16

So 1 .30 p .m. will be the time. And Dr. White will be speaking on, Can We Trust That the

01:52:23

Bible Is the Authentic, Inerrant Word of God?

01:52:29

So I hope that you will join us for that. The website for Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania is trbccarlisle .org,

01:52:42

trbccarlisle .org. And we are now back with Dr.

01:52:50

Jason Lyle. And Dr. Lyle will be speaking tomorrow night, that's Wednesday, May 7th, at Calvary Chapel of Quakertown, Pennsylvania.

01:53:02

And he will be speaking on Worlds of Creation. If you could perhaps give our listeners some more details on what you'll be discussing that night.

01:53:12

Yeah, that's a fun presentation, because I never do it quite the same way twice. I don't have any notes in front of me.

01:53:18

What I use is solar system simulation software to show people, to basically take people on a little tour of the solar system.

01:53:27

And I talk about how each of the planets and their moons is indicative of biblical creation, consistent with what the

01:53:34

Bible teaches. In terms of, there are certain processes on these planets or moons that can't last billions of years.

01:53:41

And so that implies a recent creation, thousands of years ago, not millions or billions. And we'll see that many of these planets and moons, they're designed in such a way that they cannot have formed realistically by the secular model, which just has sort of a collapsing nebula.

01:53:55

We'll see that there are problems with that. So it's just a fun exploration of the solar system based on real images that have been taken by spacecraft that we've launched and have gone past these moons.

01:54:07

And so we know what all the planets look like now, and many of their moons, because we've been there via unmanned spacecraft.

01:54:14

And this computer simulation takes those real images and rewraps them so that we can look at it from different angles.

01:54:21

It's a lot of fun. And I'd encourage people, if you can come out and hear that, or if not, we do have a DVD, Worlds of Creation.

01:54:27

But like I say, I never do it exactly the same way twice because it's not a PowerPoint presentation. It's a simulation that we can go from one place to the next, and it's a lot of fun.

01:54:37

Something just dawned on me. I am a marketing genius, and I know everybody who's a

01:54:46

Christian knows that Ken Ham has the Ark Encounter. Why doesn't Jason Lyle start a creationist planetarium?

01:54:59

I've thought about it. There are several already. Oh, really? Yeah. They have a planetarium at Answers in Genesis at the

01:55:06

Creation Museum, which I helped design. And I wrote several of the programs for that. And it's occurred to me that I might write another one in the future.

01:55:14

I'm still on good terms with Answers in Genesis. We might write another one at some point.

01:55:19

So we'll see what happens there. In fact, I'll be speaking at their homeschool conference coming up just next week, actually.

01:55:25

So I'll be with my friends there again. A lot of good people at Answers in Genesis, and I miss hanging out with them.

01:55:31

So that's going to be a lot of fun for me. But yeah, there are creation planetariums out there, including the one at Answers in Genesis.

01:55:37

Okay. Well, I guess I'm not as smart as I thought. And the contact information for Calvary Chapel of Quakertown, where Dr.

01:55:47

Lyle will be speaking tomorrow—that's Wednesday, May 7th—is ccquakertown .org.

01:55:57

ccquakertown .org. You can also call Calvary Chapel of Quakertown, Pennsylvania at 215 -804 -4220.

01:56:08

215 -804 -4220. And I would like you to conclude today's program with some final thoughts that you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today, brother.

01:56:20

Well, what we do at the Biblical Science Institute, and the whole reason I founded the ministry, is I want to encourage Christians to trust the

01:56:27

Bible. The Bible is the authoritative Word of God. It's to be trusted. I have confidence in it. I have enough confidence in it that I made some bold predictions back in 2022, based on what

01:56:36

I expected the James Webb Space Telescope to see, based on what the Bible teaches. And those are in writing. You can't take that back.

01:56:44

And I was vindicated because the Bible is true. It's the Word of God. And so that's really what I want to encourage people with.

01:56:50

The Bible is true in what it says about Genesis, what it says about creation, what it says about the fall of man, and therefore what it says about our need for a

01:56:57

Savior. And therefore it's also true in what it says about Jesus Christ being that Savior. And so the whole point of what we do is we want people to have confidence in the

01:57:05

Bible so that they will trust in Jesus Christ, believe in His resurrection from the dead, and be saved.

01:57:10

That's what we're all about at the Biblical Science Institute. And that is biblicalscienceinstitute .com

01:57:17

and .org, right? Yes. And we have time for one more question.

01:57:23

We have Kylie in Amagansett, Long Island, New York.

01:57:29

Can you explain what black holes are, and are they real? Yeah, black holes are a region of space where there is something so massive that even light cannot escape from it.

01:57:42

And since light has the fastest substance, that means nothing can escape its gravitational pull. See, on the

01:57:48

Earth, if you launch a rocket fast enough, you can get it to leave the Earth. But with a black hole, nothing's fast enough, and that's why it's black.

01:57:55

Even the light can't escape, so the light falls back into the hole, and we think all the mass gets crushed into a little point called a singularity, and then the hole is sort of the point of no return.

01:58:05

It's the sphere around that singularity where if you enter within that sphere, you can't possibly go fast enough to ever leave, because even light can't.

01:58:13

And so they appear black for that reason. And yes, they are real. We've discovered stars that orbit around an invisible companion.

01:58:20

Cygnus X -1 is a star I've seen in my telescope, and every six days, it orbits around an invisible object.

01:58:26

We think that's a black hole. There's a black hole in the center of our galaxy. We think there's a massive black hole in the center of our own galaxy, and probably in every galaxy.

01:58:34

And very recently, we've actually been able to photograph some of those using radio telescopes. And if you're wondering, how do you photograph a black hole?

01:58:41

Well, there's material orbiting around these black holes, and we can see the material orbiting, but the central hole is black.

01:58:47

And so if you Google images of M87, the black hole in M87, that's a nearby galaxy, you can see actual radio images of that black hole.

01:58:57

So yes, they are real, and they're fascinating. I've actually written a book called The Physics of Einstein that goes into details about black holes and why they exist, and they're neat.

01:59:06

Well, you can find out more about black holes from that book just mentioned by Dr. Lyle at biblicalscienceinstitute .com

01:59:14

and .org. It's been a rich joy and pleasure not only having you on the program today, but having you as my keynote speaker last week for the first time.

01:59:24

I will be making the recording of that event from last

01:59:30

Thursday available to the general public soon. We have both a video and an audio of it that will be available.

01:59:38

And I look forward to having you back in the future at other events that I arrange and host.

01:59:44

I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater