WWUTT 2700 Q&A Physical Attraction, Wives at Elders Meetings, Arguing at Thanksgiving

Is it necessary to be attracted to a potential spouse? Should elders' wives be attending elders' meetings? And how can we have good theological discussions around the Thanksgiving table without losing our cool?

The answer's when we understand the text.

This is When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible commentary to help encourage your time in the Word, that we may be conformed to the image of Christ. Tell your friends about our ministry at wwutt .com.

Here once again is Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky.

You're welcome. Psalm 36, transgression speaks to the wicked deep in his heart. There is no fear of God before his eyes, for he flatters himself in his own eyes that his iniquity cannot be found out and hated.

The words of his mouth are trouble and deceit. He has ceased to act wisely and do good. He plots trouble while on his bed. He sets himself in a way that is not good. He does not reject evil. Your steadfast love, O Lord, extends to the heavens, your faithfulness to the clouds.

Your righteousness is like the mountains of God. Your judgments are like the great deep. Man and beast you save, O Lord. I remember that being one of the things I was concerned about when I was younger, and I would sin, and I would think that nobody would find it out.

Oh, yeah. I would read a Psalm like this, for he flatters himself in his own eyes that his iniquity cannot be found out and hated. And it would convict me. I'm like, oh man. Yeah, that thing I did that I'm hoping nobody will find out.

Am I the wicked man that just thinks I can just go along?

Nobody's ever gonna know. It all comes to light sometime. But God knows. Yeah.

Yeah, like it said in Numbers, be sure your sin will find you out. Yes. So do not think you can sin in the dark. Everything will be brought into the light. We must confess our sins to God and turn and sin no more.

Amen. Nobody else is gonna make you righteous. You turn to Christ to be made righteous. And then if he has made you righteous and clothed you in his righteousness, you must walk in that righteousness.

Amen. Now we desire to learn more about the word of God, and that is what this podcast exists for. Yes. I'm sorry we've missed some weeks here and there.

We have, been kind of spotty lately.

Things got busy, but I appreciate your patience and still coming back to the program. This being the Friday edition. Yes. We take questions from the listeners and you can send those questions to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com or send a voicemail to wwwtt .com.

You can go to the website. You can glow to the website as well.

You can glow there, you know. I don't think it's gonna. I mean, your screen kind of glows.

Yeah, the screen glows at you. Glow to the website and click on the voicemail tab and you can record a voicemail using your phone or your computer. You can also send us a donation there. I'm very bad at this.

I don't do so great at promoting. Promoting, yeah. Promoting things. Anything. Or you can send us a gift, but you can. And Norma sent us a gift. Yes. Norma, thank you so much for your gift to us. That's so sweet.

Yes, that's like five nights of pizza right there. It is, yeah. Helping us out with some pizza meals. It's great. Yes. We're about to take a trip to Kansas, in fact. Lord willing. That's what we're doing for Thanksgiving.

We're gonna go back and see Becky's folks. Yeah, and my grandpa.

And your grandpa, that's right. And maybe some aunts and uncles and cousins in there. Yeah. Maybe, hoping so anyway.

There will be a turkey dinner in there somewhere. Yes. Yes. And we're gonna go to church in Mead again. Yes. That's the town where I was baptized when I was in high school. And graduated from high school.

That's right, graduated high school from there. I grew up there in Southwest Kansas. I hated it when I was there. And now I love going back. It's like coming home. So I'm looking forward to it. We're gonna get blown around by the wind.

And maybe some snow. It's gonna be way colder than here in Arizona. It's gonna be way colder.

Yeah, tonight's low is supposed to get down to 26, I guess. Like below freezing. Oh, in Kansas.

Yeah. Ugh. Yeah, that part, that part I'm not looking forward to. Yeah.

I might actually have to take a coat. They may have like 90 degree weather by the time we get there. Cause it's only in a couple of weeks, you know.

90 degrees in a couple of weeks?

Yeah, you don't remember it being bipolar? Not in November.

I mean, it's not that, oh, it gets bipolar. But it doesn't get up to 90 in November. It has? I don't know about that. Ah, okay.

Yeah, I remember. When we first moved to Kansas. Cause I tried to wear sweaters and I couldn't cause it's too hot. Oh yeah, but not 90.

I mean, maybe. Maybe for a day. Maybe 80. Okay, 80. I don't think it ever got up to 90 in November. Not while I was living there anyway. I remember the first month, no, it was the first November that we were there in Kansas.

We moved in December. So then the following November was when Kansas had like the biggest snow ever. Yes. Yeah.

That was the year. That was it. We had pictures of the snow on the hood of the car being taller than the snow that we knocked off the roof of the car. So it was like, but it was a suburban. So it was like really, really deep.

And there was never a year where we had a snow like that again.

No, it was very disappointing. That was like my favorite year ever.

My sister and I built snow forts. We did too. We dug tunnels.

We did too. And we use the snow drifts in the alley to like kind of, you know, climb on structures. We probably weren't supposed to climb on, but like slide down them, it was so fun. We were able to get on top of the garage.

And we rode the sled down the roof of the garage and we could because the drifts were that high.

Yeah, there was barely a drop in it at all. It was astonishing.

It's the only time that in Kansas you could have your own snow hill in your backyard.

Everything else was way too flat. And for those of you who don't know what a snow drift is, it's where the wind picks the snow and puts it in like big piles. So kind of like your leaves get drafted into a pile.

I don't think we need to explain this. I mean, those are friends who live here in the desert who have never been around snow. Yeah. All right, fine.

I think everybody pretty well knows what a snow drift is.

Maybe, but this is like insane snow drift. They were pretty crazy. They were.

Like feet tall snow drift. Yeah. But of course, I mean, you were talking to people like up in Michigan, Wisconsin. Oh yeah, yeah. They know. They know. They know snow drift. They know. Absolutely. I'm preaching to the choir there.

Yeah, right. Let's get to some questions here. This first one is anonymous. Hi, Becky and Pastor Gabe. Now see, that's a good order to put it in because now it doesn't sound like Pastor Gabe and Becky.

Right, yeah. So hi, Becky and Pastor Gabe. That's a good order. It is. It's a great way to start.

How much should a person. I feel very awkward going first, but it's fine. You have to answer this first now.

Oh dear. How much should a person have in common and be attracted to a potential spouse? There is a situation where two young people desire a godly spouse, aligned biblically on marriage and family, but are complete opposites in interests and the way they present themselves in style and attire.

Would love your perspectives on how these issues should be thought out. Well, honestly, I don't know, that kind of. I thought you said I was first. No, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

Go, go, go, go, go. Well, I was kind of thinking through the question because the question is, how much should a person have in common with and be attracted to a potential spouse? But then what this person describes, and since it's anonymous, I don't know if this is a man or a woman writing, but what they describe doesn't really quite go with the question.

Yeah. So even though they have different interests, I mean, is that a problem? Because you and I have different interests.

We have very different interests. But that's not an issue. You eat the food that I don't eat, and I eat the food you don't eat. Yeah, we even have. It works out well.

We even have different appetites. We're awake at different times of the day. Oh my goodness, yes. I mean, there's a lot of differences between us, but that has never at any point made me think, yeah, I don't think this is gonna work.

Yeah, I don't know. Because I mean, there is such a thing as opposites attract. It's about chemistry, and I don't mean that in the scientific sense per se, but kind of, sort of, I don't know. Like, you just know.

Yeah. And you're comfortable around that person. You don't have, like, self-doubts as much as you do around other people. Right. I don't know how to describe it.

I think you're right on the money. Yeah, there's just like, you just know it. You just know. You just know. I mean, the example that I've given related to this, related to exactly your answer, was a gal I dated that I held hands with.

I thought she was very attractive, felt like our conversations were going great. But then I held her hand, and there was something about the way our hands went together that just did not work. And I was like, this is not gonna happen.

And it didn't matter that the conversation seemed great, and we were physically attracted to each other, then the hand-holding was, nope, there's no fit here. And it was like, I just knew this was not gonna go.

Right. And sure enough, you were my match. Yay! I mean, I hope that wasn't too awkwardly detailed, but it just was apparent that something was not fitting here. Right. Whereas with you and I, I was fighting myself on the first date from saying, I love you, let's go get married.

Let's go. I mean, right from the first date, I was going.

We even talked about like, if this is not heading towards marriage, then we've got to call it off right then and there. Like, it's just gonna have to end. And we'll end amicably, but it's still, we need to stop, put the brakes on.

But I never felt that way. I had such.

That I can remember. I had such a bad track record. I had not great results in the very recent past. And you and I were attending the same church. Your dad was an assistant pastor. I was the worship leader, the music leader.

And I'm going, man, if this doesn't work. It's gonna be awkward. This is gonna be really awkward. So I was hesitant getting into it in the very beginning. But then once I went on the first date with you, I was like, okay, this is definitely happening.

Still took 17 months till we set our I do's, but I knew it. I knew it on the first date. It's gotta be it. So all that to say, I think you just know. And the difference in interests and even the clothes that you wear.

I think our clothing styles have mostly matched over the years. Were they really different when we were getting together in the beginning though? I don't think so.

I don't think so either. I've been pretty laid back. I mean, there does have to be some understanding of if looks are important to one person, but not so much to another, that the other person's just gonna have to be patient and understanding that they want to look nice.

And that's okay.

Yeah. I mean, I think attraction is important. Like a lot of times we will talk about attraction as being something shallow, physical attraction. But if you're not attracted to the person that you're dating, that's pretty bad.

I mean, don't try to force it. Yeah, yeah. Don't try to force it if it's not there. Right. I think that you will know if it works. You'll know if it fits. Right. There have been some people within our movement and by our movement, I mean like Reform Baptists in particular, that they try to force marriage because this single guy and this single girl just need to get together.

Right. And they try to force it to happen.

It doesn't work that way. It's not a good idea. Because you have to have some sort of understanding and respect for one another that you can come together for a lifetime. Yes. I mean, it's not like, oh, hey, this is a great idea, let's just do it.

You know, no, there has to be more to it. And it has to be the blessing of God in it. And if he doesn't will it to happen, then it's, but you force it, it's gonna be miserable. Right. I mean, there's gonna be consequences.

So it's, I don't know. It's...

You'll know. You just know. Yeah. Now, everything else that you detailed is very, very important. A godly spouse. Yes. Aligning biblically on marriage and family. Yes. Those things are definitely the priority.

Right. They have to be the bedrock. You're building a relationship on Christ.

Because otherwise there is no respect for one another. Exactly, exactly.

You're heading in the same direction. You're both focused on Christ and the closer you draw to Christ, the closer you're gonna get to each other. But then with regards to the other things, they're opposites on interests.

They're different the way they present themselves in style and attire. I mean, who cares? Yeah. Like if it doesn't bother them and it doesn't, it's not in any way some cause for hesitation or they're just not feeling it because you like this and I like this.

Well, what's the old song? You say potato, I say potatoe. Oh yeah. You say tomato, I say tomato. Let's call the whole thing off. Yeah. I mean, just because you have those differences doesn't mean it's a deal breaker.

Right. You could think the other person's really cute because they like something that's completely different than what you like. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And I mean, it broadens your horizons too. Yeah. But I mean, culture. Forces you to try different things. Right. Yeah. But culturally, it's okay to marry from a different culture but you have to be more patient and understanding of where they come from.

It's just gonna take a little bit extra time and patience, I don't. Grace. Grace, grace is good, yes. Gotta have some grace in there. Grace for each other. To understand one another and to understand where they're coming from on things.

Yeah. And so with the whole cultural difference on upbringing, like you're still both saved, you're still both sound in your faith but just the background, I guess. Oh yeah, different backgrounds.

Different backgrounds can definitely create, you know. Friction. Yeah.

If you're not careful. If you're not careful. So you do have to have that extra understanding that, oh, okay, I really love this person, I'm gonna marry this person but I do need to understand that this could be an issue if we don't keep open communication and work things out and pray about it.

I think we're delving into a completely different topic though when we get into talking about.

With cultural differences? Yeah. Well, I was thinking with like the differences.

That they were referring to. I think this just looks like style differences. Oh, okay. So opposites. Well, that's totally different. Opposites and interests, the way they present themselves in style and attire.

So this person's a goth and this person's a hippie. Oh, okay. Yeah, whatever. I don't know. I don't know what the differences in style are, but yeah, like I said, like we said, I think you're just gonna know.

You'll know if it works, you'll know if it doesn't. Yeah. And don't try to force it if you know,.

I'm just not feeling it. And if you're not sure, pray about it. Yep, absolutely. Pray, pray, pray. And have other people pray for you too.

As Proverbs says, there is wisdom in many counselors. Yes. So good to get some feedback from some others as well. This next email, it comes from Randy, who says, good morning, Pastor Gabe and Becky. I have a question regarding the role of elders' wives.

Our small village missions church leadership announced to the congregation a couple months ago that from now on, the elders' wives will be attending and participating in their meetings. That's an immediate red flag.

Dun, dun, dun, dun. Can I, can I do that? Yeah. Clip that out if you can. You are an elder's wife. I am. They told us that they won't be voting or deciding anything, the wives won't, but helping the men by giving a woman's perspective.

I immediately felt alarmed by this and very concerned. I was told that a well-respected brother in Christ had already approached one of the elders about concerns over this. And he was basically told they have to agree to disagree because it doesn't go against scripture.

My husband and I have been praying over this and giving it time, but I am curious on your thoughts. I don't wanna cause division or disunity, but I'm struggling with it. Am I just being overly critical and distrusting or is this something to be genuinely concerned about?

I am so incredibly grateful for your ministry and how faithfully obedient you and Becky are to the Lord. Thank you both for all you do, continued prayers and love to you and your family. Well, the very immediate question that I have in response to this is how do you biblically justify this?

Okay. Where is there a biblical justification for this? Okay. Because when you have a description of qualifications for elders, there is never, there is never in these qualifications a list of qualifications for the elder's wife.

Right. And if she's going to be attending those meetings and giving womanly input to these elders, then what qualifications is she meeting to be in those meetings, to therefore be guiding decisions over the church?

She is acting as an overseer, even without being an overseer.

Okay, so let me, hold on, let me kind of, maybe you can help clarify my muddy brain. All right. Okay. So they're not, the wives are not in there for a particular circumstance that could use womanly counsel.

They're in every meeting? That's what it sounds like. Okay.

Yeah. Okay. It's not a particular situation where, you know, we really should get a woman's insight on this. Okay. It appears to be that the wives are always now attending every meeting that the elders have.

Oh, I'm, I'm uncomfortable.

Okay, so consider, let's look at this instruction again in 1 Timothy chapter two, which leads into the qualifications for elders in chapter three, chapter two, verse 11, that very famous verse, the egalitarians would call it the infamous verse.

Yes. But it says, let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. Really think that kind of ends the discussion, quite frankly, but going on, I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, rather she is to remain quiet.

So what is the wife doing there in the elders meeting, advising the elders? Sounds like she's teaching. Sounds like she's exercising authority. Now she may not be exercising authority over her husband, and that may be the contention of the elders.

Well, our wives are not exercising authority over us. We're still the authority in the room.

Yes, but Still the ones voting, they're not.

Yeah, but still the wives would be exercising authority over other men in the church, wouldn't they be? Yeah. And that's been part of the problem with like the, what would you call it? The light complementarianism.

I can't remember the, like a middle road or moderate complementarianism. I can't remember what it's called. Where they lean kind of more toward the egalitarian direction, but they still wanna claim to be complementarian.

You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is that called? Complementarian light? I think so. That's what I remember. I can't remember the expression for it. It's been a long time. But even those who will hold that position, J .D. Greer was one of them.

And he was the former president of the Southern Baptist Convention. He would say, it's okay for a woman to be in like a pastoral position or an elder position, as long as the main pastor or the senior pastor is a man, so that he's got the authority over her.

Well, the problem with that is you're still putting her in a position of authority where she's over the other men in the church. It doesn't matter that there's a man over her, she's still being positioned over men.

So if you have women in these elders meetings that are helping to guide the direction of the elders in these decisions that need to be made for the church, then she's exercising authority over the men.

Why are the men so unqualified? That's what I'm asking.

Like, what are they lacking? Yeah. That they need their wives to be there in the meeting. Right.

With them. So what is it about these guys that they're so unqualified for the job? Yeah. That they gotta have their wives there. They need their backup. To help them make this decision. Then when you go on into qualifications for elder, 1 Timothy 3, verses one through seven, Titus chapter one, verses five through nine, nothing is ever mentioned there about the qualifications for his wife.

Now, the interesting thing about qualifications for deacons in verses eight through 13, is there are qualifications there for the deacon's wife. And some have even argued that the way those qualifications are worded in the original Greek, it could simply be women likewise, not their wives likewise.

So it could also be listing women there as potential deacon candidates. Okay. Which is why there are some churches out there that I would say still follow a patriarchal model of leadership where all of the elders, all of the overseers are men.

But you may find among the deacons, women. And they would not consider that to be a compromise on patriarchalism or complementarianism. Right. Because of the way that they read and understand what's being said there in 1 Timothy 3, verses eight through 13.

Okay. But as we understand it, as our church practices it, and every church that I've ever been a part of, the two offices are pastor and deacon, and those offices are limited to men. Now, since you have wives mentioned in the qualifications for deacon, it's because that's a role of service.

That's being the hands and feet of the church. It's helping to serve those who are in need. Right. So it's very reasonable that a deacon would have his wife with him in helping to meet the needs of men and women.

Or if she's left at home often enough that she's not gonna be the jealous wife and go cause trouble. Okay. I wasn't thinking that, but. You know, I mean, there's a lot of drama that can come from that.

There is. Having the man be servitude and like servant mindset, and then the wife be like, I'm selfish. Okay. You know what I mean? Okay.

But what you're describing here with regard to your church, with the wives there with the elders, you've become functionally egalitarian. Yeah. It is an egalitarian setup, even though the wives don't hold pastoral positions.

This does sound like, you know, our pastors, Greg and Maria. Yeah. You know, instead of just Pastor Greg.

I can't even imagine like being in your elders meeting, pulling part of that conversation, and then you guys voting and you not voting for what I stood for during that. What we would go home with. Like that is just not okay.

It's definitely causing more drama. Yeah. But you have, the wives are leading, they're leading the church.

They really are. Yes. And I mean, they should be supportive. Yes. Yeah. But let the men be men. Yes. Like they need to wear their own pants. Like this is just awkward. That's right.

Now somebody may be listening to this and like, well, you got your wife right there. Well, this is a discussion. It is. This is not an elders meeting. No. Definitely not. And my wife and I are talking to each other and you're listening to the conversation.

That's how this, that's how we approach this because my wife doesn't want to think about there being any. No, no, no. She doesn't want to think that there are listeners that are listening to this.

We're just talking with one another. Just a handful of people is fine. That's right. Yes. But I mean, there are moments where like, you tell me things that are going on with the church that would require an elder meeting conversation.

Right. And I give my two cents then, but I'm not, I don't feel like I'm leading you or needing to be there to help you decide what's best for the church. I feel like I would be in the position of, I don't know if I would even consider myself more than an average church goer.

Well, that's, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Right. Like you're the pastor's wife. Yes. There isn't some I'm supportive of you.

Yes, exactly. But I don't feel like I'm more in your ear than anybody else in the church is. Well, you are. I mean, being my wife. But you know what I mean? Like you could go to anybody and get that kind of counsel.

Sure. You know, like, what do we decide on the building? Okay, so what's your opinion? What's your opinion? You know, like, and then you come to me for my opinion. Sure. But it's not like I'm left out, but I'm not like in your meeting.

Yeah, yeah. Like this is just bothering me.

A pastor's wife is not an office. You don't hold an office that you have to meet the qualifications for and everything like this. And even when I have pastored at different churches and I've interviewed for those spots, the question always comes up from my end, like, what are your expectations for my wife?

Because I want to know, what do you think that a pastor's wife should be doing? Yeah. And I'm grateful that every church where I've been a pastor, the response has been just to support you. She is the manager of your household.

She's taking care of the kids. She's making it so that you can do your studies and do the pastoral care that you need to do. And you've done a wonderful job with that because me being a pastor was your idea before it was mine.

True story.

I'm grateful for that too, because then I have the flexibility of, you know, okay, this is a busy season. I need to step back out of the, you know, like the things that I'm most involved in in the church, not completely, but enough that I can be more home front.

Right. And then, you know, if it's more of a relaxed season that I'm like, yes, I'm there, I'm in it. Let's go, go, go kind of thing. So I can be wherever I need to be rather than having the pressure of, no, you've got to be there.

I mean, to be in a meeting though, I just. I just.

Like there's not even any expectation on you to be leading the women's groups. No. We've got other women that do that. So yeah, not a. Praise the Lord for them too. There's not a list of qualifications for a pastor's wife.

What you're describing here is definitely putting women in authority alongside the elders to guide the elders over the rest of the church. You have a functionally egalitarian church. Even if on paper, it doesn't look that way.

Right. This is a compromised group of overseers. And Randy, you have every reason to be concerned about this. Definitely. And it won't stop here. Things will change and women will start getting handed more authority, even pastoral roles down the road, if it doesn't get checked.

Yeah. I would say they're being handed pastoral roles already.

Yeah, you might want to look into that a little bit.

Yeah, I would say something more confrontational needs to happen here with regards to like, what are we doing here? Yeah. What are our bylaws regarding this? Where is this decision come from?

And maybe if enough people in your congregation say something about it, maybe they'll actually check themselves rather than agree to disagree. Yeah.

Changing gears here, this is gonna be a completely different subject matter, something a little heavier. Okay. But this is from David. He sent us a voicemail.

Hello, Pastor Gabe and Becky. This is David. And my question for you this morning is, I do the work of an evangelist at a local college. January is Sanctity of Human Life Month. I had seen a video of Votie Bauckham years ago, and he said that abortion is a modern day Holocaust.

So if you're gonna be talking about any of the past wars, you would also be showing pictures of the war dead. Besides showing a pictures of normal babies, okay, with smiles on their faces, beautiful children, would also be permissible in your viewpoint or advantageous also to show pictures of aborted babies so that the college students will see what it actually is.

I value your opinion.

Thank you. Yes, it would be advantageous to do that. And that's why I do it in my videos. So I have put those images in videos I've done about abortion. And what's interesting is YouTube or any of the other social media sites will flag those videos as portraying violence.

And it's like, huh, well, that's interesting. This isn't just tissue, is it? Right. I'm actually showing bodies of mutilated children. And that does catch people's attention. And it does open their eyes to the horrors of what's actually being done when we talk about abortion.

And I'm in complete agreement. It is a Holocaust. And the Holocaust of past wars pale in comparison to the Holocaust of abortion. Every year in the United States of America alone, over a million babies are being killed by abortion.

That is well above the Holocaust that we've experienced of any war. So David, I think you are right. As a matter of wisdom or prudence in the way that you approach this topic and open people's eyes to what you're talking about whenever we discuss abortion, that you would have pictures of those babies so they see this is what is being done to a human body when this is perpetrated in an abortion clinic, in a hospital, in a doctor's office, wherever this would take place.

I think it's okay too. You said in addition to or besides pictures of babies that we would also show what an abortion looks like. So I think it's also good to have pictures of babies. Right. Because then that's also saying to people, this is who you're killing.

When an abortion happens, this is a human child. And so it's good to use either image. You can probably have sometimes when you're out there having discussions with college students where what you're showing is a beautiful baby child.

And then you have other discussions out there where you've got standup boards or whatever you've got with you that's showing this is what the result of an abortion is. And I can promise you you're gonna get way more pushback on the second image than you're gonna get on the first.

And you'll still get pushback on the first. There'll still be people coming up to you and arguing with you about that, but you're gonna get way more hate on the second image than you'll get on the first image.

Know what your rights are though. Be aware of what the university's bylaws are or whatever they say about like, anybody that comes on campus and does. Be aware of them. Yes. Just because they have those things in writing though, doesn't mean that you have to abide by it because a college campus is still public property.

True. If it's paid for by tax dollars. Unless it's a private college. Yeah, unless it's a private college. But if it's paid for by tax dollars, it is public property. So even if they say in their rules and in their laws, you can't be on campus doing this.

Well, be sure you know what your rights are. Right. As far as exercising your first amendment goes so that they don't bully you into saying, hey, we've got it written in our rules, right. But they don't apply to me because the first amendment overrides what you're saying that I have to abide by.

It's good to be knowledgeable of that and be aware of that. But just know you're gonna get a lot more pushback when you're showing what the results of an abortion are. Yeah. And there's gonna be people that'll hate you for it because they love their sin.

Yeah. That this is, I think it was Nancy Pelosi, the former Speaker of the House, who even called abortion a sacrament. She called it a sacrament. So something sacred. Now to the pagans, to the left, this is their sacrament.