Icon Veneration Debate Announcement, then Barrett's Students Converting

Well, greetings and welcome to the dividing line it's gonna be a big show today

Got some big stuff to tell you about. First of all, just a reminder. We're getting real close These are on the website

We have the dialogue with Yasir Qadhi on January 29th coming up really quickly here and in fact,

I'll be I think I'll be picking up the RV tomorrow and getting it back from the repair facility that it normally goes to after a trip when we run into stuff that needs to be dealt with and Start that process of getting ready for the next trip that starts in less than two weeks and Actually looking at the calendar here that means that yeah

Two weeks from tomorrow two weeks tomorrow evening will be the dialogue with Yasir Qadhi The information is

It's the Islamic Association of Louisville and Flower Mound in Flower Mound, Texas address is there and Then the conference which is right next door

The mosque and the church share a property line actually Understanding Islam a conference for thoughtful Christians January 30 31st

Christ Presbyterian Church Flower Mound, Texas. The information is there Registration tickets things like that.

It's not some big expensive thing They just want to make sure you know, how many people are coming and things like that And then

I will be speaking at the church that Sunday. They were just asking for my sermon topic and I'm just like Started laughing sort of humorously what you want my sermon topic more than two weeks before I'm preaching it.

I Never know a certain sermon topic. Well, I suppose I'm doing a series then.

Yeah, you know Baptism, okay. Yeah, but something like that. Yeah, no

You know if they really forced me to think ahead. The only problem is will I remember it come that morning?

That's the that's the important part about that. So anyways, those are on the website. There is something else on the website.

Finally we get to make the big announcement and Rich has the the graphic that's already up on the website that beat us to it here is

Here is what I've been working towards since oh, I don't know sometime last year.

I think it was Maybe October I got in touch with Craig Somewhere around that time frame.

I was looking at emails earlier today We have debate coming up Saturday, October 17th.

Yes, October 17th you're saying that's that's That's really a long ways away.

Well, not really it's coming at us pretty quickly actually From my perspective because I have a tremendous amount of work to do between now and then

On this particular subject and related subjects to it But Saturday, October 17th, please notice 9 a .m.

It is a morning debate because we are holding at the Church the Redeemer in Gilbert, Arizona and We were looking at holding it somewhere down in Florence, Arizona initially

Because that's where Craig Trulia will be there is a an Orthodox Monastery down in sort of South Florence and so we were looking at having it at a venue there, but that would have been like a library or a community center and Rich and I are both like man

You know Somebody on the City Council decides they don't want that topic and we're scrambling to try to put something together so I contacted the kind folks over at Church the

Redeemer and said hey this is sort of halfway between where I live and where Craig Trulia will be and you all already have your cameras set up and Everything is ready for recording.

Hopefully streaming as well and So we worked with them and that's one of the reasons it has to be at 9 a .m

Because it's a busy church and a busy facility. There's things going on later in the day

It'll be a full three -hour debate. So 9 to noon probably a little bit after I think we have till 1 before we need to Be out of their way and so yes,

October 17th and You look at the title of the debate you can go ahead and put that down the corner or something like that if you wanted to and You're going you're not going to have to worry about having

Insufficient seats Because it is a topic that Honestly every time

I've told people about it They've just sort of looked at me like oh, that's really exciting and they were lying to me

They didn't know why I'm so excited about it and have been putting effort into it

But one of the things I need to start program off with today is explaining to you why

And I've sort of gave the background in previous programs. I've said this is not the kind of topic that's going to You know blow the doors off and I don't expect some big huge crowd especially at 9 a .m.

On a Saturday However, I Need to try to help you to understand

Why this particular topic is so incredibly important It's not just because there has been a real uptick in People asking questions about Eastern Orthodoxy I mean that's relevant and You know, we've had

Jason Wallace on and the folks up there in Utah have put together some great

Resources that are on YouTube dealing with you know

Lucaris and we had him on talking about that and and and other things that they've put out on Eastern Orthodoxy that We refer people to all the time

But this particular subject And again icon veneration is defined by the second

Nicene Council and 787 is apostolic Wow, could you have come up with a less exciting title?

I'm sure we could have come up with a less accurate title, but you need to understand something

By addressing the second Nicene Council which claimed that icon veneration is apostolic

That the Apostles taught and commanded this you need to understand

Second Nicene Council is the seventh ecumenical council and is accepted as ecumenical and hence binding and infallible by both

Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy is the last of the ecumenical councils that are accepted by both

East and West So Nicaea 1 325 is the first And you have

Constantinople Ephesus Chalcedon up to Nicaea 2 and 787 so by addressing this council and Addressing a specific

Teaching that it made so I've you've seen me hold this book up many times before I will

Try to put together a recommend a recommended reading list for those of you who'd like to take this really seriously

And Get the most out of the debate when it actually takes place This of course would be one of the resources.

It's really one of the primary resources on the subject of Nicaea 2 this acts the second council of Nicaea But I'll also put together some of Craig Trulia's stuff so that you can see where he's coming from he takes a

Very interesting position In regards to Pseudo -Dionysius and We will be spending time on Pseudo -Dionysius this year and You might go.

Oh again, that sounds exciting. Let me just point out Pseudo -Dionysius is The third most cited source in all of Thomas Aquinas's writings

Augustine and Aristotle Come before and Then it's

Pseudo -Dionysius there would have been no mystical movement in the medieval period without Pseudo -Dionysius and Craig Trulia takes a position that Pseudo -Dionysius isn't

Pseudo That this actually was the Dionysus of Acts chapter 17, which pushes

Neoplatonic Greek philosophy 500 years back in history now, that is a extremely minority position

But it's more popular amongst Orthodox there are very few Roman Catholics that hold that position

But the the point is that that is Part that will be part of the debate

He has indicated he does not feel it would be a major part of the debate But it will be a part of the debate. So we'll be doing church history.

We'll be doing development of doctrine We'll be doing ecumenical councils. We'll be doing a lot of church history stuff this year and it's stuff that okay,

I Sat in this very seat. Well, I'm sure we've replaced this chair But I sat maybe not.

Okay. All right. I sat right in this studio without the painted walls And We did

Entire programs On this for on this we did an entire dividing line where we went through and read every

Single ayah or verse in the Quran that makes reference to Jesus.

That was what the whole program We have done programs on We've gone through the hadith literature

And we've talked about mutawatir hadith the hadith that are universally accepted by the

Sunnis and I've narrated them and we've talked about how you can use them We have done in -depth studies on this program

Because we do the program to have long -lasting value Not to compete with somebody and how many clicks we're getting

And in fact, I'll just tell you honestly Just speaking to our supporters

This is this is not the kind of thing to do it's smart Okay, if if we wanted to be growing the audience

If we wanted to be Increasing popularity what you do is you get sound effects and you do trendy topics and you do

Cool topics that you can, you know, go grab a sword and you know I've got my swords back here and go grab a sword and go running out in the parking lot and and playing

He -man or something. Um, that's what everybody else does that's not how this program started and That's not how it's going to continue

Our Support base is made up of people Who want us to continue doing the things we're doing?

and want us to produce debates and information programs

That will be relevant 15 -20 years from now, maybe even longer on important topics

So back to this topic if you're dealing with an ecumenical council

You're dealing with the authority claims of both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy at the same time if the claim of the council is in fact false

You have Fundamentally ended the authority claims of both groups at the same time

And this is always what it boils down to How many times has

Catholic answers asked and in one instance demanded That I debate them on solo scriptura

What's the opposite of that? What is what is their claim their claim is apostolic authority in apostolic succession, right?

They don't want to debate those topics because this is one of the things they'd have to deal with they'd have to deal with the claims of Nicaea too, and it's claim that icon veneration and it's anathematizing of Anyone who would refuse to kiss the icon

You are anathema if you do not venerate icons according to this council. They don't want to have to defend that They don't want to have to defend it historically

They don't want to have to deal with the early church history that fundamentally disagrees with their position.

So Addressing this topic Addresses the issue of authority in a way that is not being generally done right now

And let's be honest vast majority of people in our audience Had never heard of the year 787 or the second council of Nicaea Couldn't have told you what the seven ecumenical councils were

Or what they addressed The chapters and all the stuff that starts getting a little fuzzy after Chalcedon or so Things start getting a little bit interesting after the fall of the

Western Empire and and things like that. So We're not trying that this is not our way to Break out of the pack and be something special and new

That'd be a dumb way to do it And a lot of our critics, you know the new

Christian, right and it's hard not to just mock that Foolishness, just like when the new

Christian intellectuals came out. It's like no really you're not gonna be new for very long guys But you know

These guys they they're not gonna deal with this kind of stuff. They're not gonna touch it. They know nothing about it Never even heard of it before They're not gonna they're not gonna go here

We know that there is a need for a serious interaction with the claims of Eastern Orthodoxy, which means

There is a serious need to give the historical background to give that information and To make it available to people because We know what it's like to hear from people

We've got a situation here locally We and and I know of a number of situations in different contexts different localities where Families are dealing with family members

Going these directions and they've come to realize there's not much out there

There's not a whole lot of help and you know for decades now I Have heard from people when we had the 40th anniversary.

I got emails and testimonials of People who you know left

Roman Catholicism and then Family members started coming after them and throwing stuff at them that Dave Hunt never mentioned anything about and They just happen to run across our information and happen to run across our our books and resources and That's what

Kept them From having to go back into these systems or brought out help to bring people out of these systems this is what we've been doing for a long long time and You'll remember that sometime last year

I Don't remember what the date was I attempted to get

Another there we go I've got this

Tried to get another Eastern Orthodox representative To engage this topic and his response was

Well, we put it up on the big screen in the other studio its response was beyond childish beyond childish and He's a he's a better -known name

But not for scholarly reasons by any stretch the imagination So when that crashed and burned very quickly a couple of different people contacted me and gave me the same name of Craig Trulia and And Turretin fan has engaged him in debate as well on a very similar topic and So that's when

I was like, okay. I want to I want to get in touch with Get in touch with him and then something happened.

I forgot what was something happened online to where He had he had

Said something that indicated an interest on his part as well. So I followed up with that.

We did that on X We started talking about topics dates how to arrange things and we've been working through all that stuff for a number of months now and Have finally come to we've got it all set up ready to go and Yeah, it's gonna cost us some money to do this

But you all support such things so very very well and we'll just you know, just put it out there. Yeah, it's gonna you know, we're flying them out and taking care of them and there's rental at the at the church and rent of the people

Because hey, I fully understand You don't want somebody else walking in and using your equipment, you know, you know how it works

You know how it should be set up stuff like that So, yeah, there's uh, you know, there'll be some funds that need to be expended to do all this but it is in my opinion one of the most efficient ways of dealing with two different groups at the same time and helping to provide the kind of responses that need to be offered in regards to the claims of Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism now, it's interesting to me

Eastern Orthodoxy Interprets Nicaea to and applies

Nicaea to very differently than Roman Catholicism and I would say that Nicaea to is significantly more central

To the Weekly worship of the

Eastern Orthodox Church than is Roman Catholicism by a long shot There have been further ecumenical councils from Rome's perspective

Since Nicaea to but not in the East perspective. That's one of the That's one of the points of tension between East and West is

You know the schism didn't take place for another just under 300 years after Nicaea to But Rome rather Unilaterally started proclaiming councils as ecumenical worldwide

By saying well East is in schism. So they're Those attitudes are changing.

There's a lot of ecumenical dialogue going on between East and West right now and Exactly what that's gonna lead to I don't know but man

I get the feeling with The stuff on Mary recently Stuff that's going on with the current

Pope. I think there have been some pretty in -depth conversations taking place in the background and Whether some big development takes place before this debate does

I I can't say But it could throw an interesting monkey wrench into things

One way or the other along those those lines so the topic directly addresses worship

The topic directly addresses What whether scripture is sufficient to regulate

Christian worship but the main thing it's addressing is The ultimate authority claims of Eastern Orthodoxy because this is said to be an infallible

Council And Roman Catholicism at the same time because again, it's an ecumenical council it's binding upon both

Even though it's interesting to see how differently they interpret things. Anyway, so this is going to require a tremendous amount of my time and my effort and that's one of the reasons that we'll be talking about in the program is

I I Can't be developing stuff for the program while doing all this stuff over here you know when

I was Developing material on on Islam. It's what I talked about in the program. It's It's how it works and did did

Did we lose some people during that time with this long probably? Yeah, probably Um, you know might we lose some people, you know talking about this kind of stuff.

Well, it's possible but When I when

I ask myself the question who else is going to address this it's a it's a It's a deeply historical and yet apologetic topic and I'm the professor of church history and apologetics at Grace Bible Theological Seminary sort of fits

And I do intend Lord willing and the health holds out and I don't get run over by a truck on the next trip or something like that I intend to write a

Scholarly article for publication in the seminary's journal in response to Craig Trulia's Presentation on pseudo

Dionysius and the attempt to make that first century rather than make it, you know around the year 100 rather than the year 500 which is what ninety nine point nine percent of Christian scholarship holds to today

You're 500 Because that is part of the background of this particular debate but then my sincere desire after the debate would be

In November December to be taking that information and Finally get around to writing another book.

It's been a long time since I did that and So There you go.

There's the there's the plans Oh and Rich is raising the microphone.

So so just a matter of clarification Folks that were paying attention may have found in the middle of you describing and explaining that that the graphics slightly changed from Church of the

Redeemer Which could be a Bible Church, which confused some people. So the graphic is now

Redeemer Bible Church. That's the correct I so there was a little confusion there. We've corrected that and I just wanted to Point it up.

Yep, and I'll refresh my my screen here. That was my fault. I'm sure We will be more than happy to blame you

Uh The graphic has been fixed on the website But the text still says Church to Redeemer Church Redeemer is where we meet and that's why it just automatically just just can't get it

Okay, yeah, sorry about that This is still this is you know for me this this is gonna be amazing.

I'm just I'm glad to be doing this again We haven't actually put on anything like this directly from us doing it for a very long time.

So I'm very pleased with this Yeah, man, that would have been almost the Los Angeles debate with Doug Wilson and and O 'Fallon was a part of that.

So yeah, it's been a long time Yeah, and it and it and a completely different a completely different topic a completely different perspective

Yeah, and I need to I need to I don't think I can fix my Announcement because I used the old one.

I'll try to get that taken care of on the way. That's all all on me and If Chris can fix the text on the website

It's still above above the thing it still says Church to Redeemer we need to need to get that Corrected as well.

So I'm I'm really really Really really excited about this and Craig has been very easy to work with actually,

I haven't actually spoken him on the phone Rich did and And Rich said really nice guy

Just so different than what we would have been dealing with with the other guy. Let's put that way So I think this is going to be very scholarly very straightforward

Uncompromising this isn't gonna be some ecumenical love fest or something like that. His position can't allow for that to happen in the first place but it will be

Very straightforward and I think very useful and open up a lot of doors of conversation discussion and So there is there's 2026 for you.

There's there's where we're gonna be going this year and Your prayers appreciated and isn't it interesting that this is?

You know quite relevant to other things that are taking place right now

Um, so overnight

I guess We There a

Tweet an X post whatever they've called them now appeared online from Matthew Barrett and if you recall

Matthew Barrett was for a number of years a Professor at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary one of the

Southern Baptist seminaries and In 2016, he wrote a book on solo scriptura

But after that time period He Had his conversion to Thomas Aquinas.

I guess that's the way to put it the the Aquinas bug bit and And we've talked a number of past couple of years about you know, we've shown pictures of the

Midwestern Bookstore on campus, you know,

I think one of them was it four or six of the ten books were by Roman Catholics And he was talking about how he'd have students

Giving him drawings. They had made of Thomas Aquinas and it was just so I Mean Midwestern is known for Spurgeon not

Aquinas. There is a big gap between those two in theology and belief and and presentation everything else and so we we said

This is This is a certain trajectory. This man's going a certain direction.

He's not gonna stay where he's staying We we made that clear and all people just I Can't believe you you are so narrow -minded and you're so hateful and da da da da da da da da and then six months ago

Barrett leaves Midwestern and becomes an Anglican well again, duh

Saw that one coming from a mile off and no, I my email box was not filled with people apologizing

Well, I guess you're right about that one. Okay, what? No, I said it was well, why are you doing attacking

Anglicans? Haven't you ever read that? You know them and So we address that subject and I raised the specter of the fact that many people when they leave an evangelical

Protestant orientation They go to a liturgical church for a while They want the liturgy.

They want the candles they want the vestments they want talk about apostolic this and apostolic that and So they might become

Anglican they might become high church Lutheran Anglo -Catholic there's all sorts of groups out there that you know you can shuffle on over to and Start getting the smells and bells

But in a large portion of the instances, it's a rest stop

It's a stop -gap stop Because it's not consistent

It doesn't go far enough and When these individuals are faced with the authority claims of Rome or Constantinople for that matter if you want to throw the

Eastern Orthodox in here These folks find themselves unable

To defend the stop -gap position they're in and they cross the

Tiber they cross the Bosporus whatever they become Eastern Orthodox and become

Roman Catholic and Then there are some who Go Anglican Lutheran whatever

Orthodox then Catholic That's that's one. We've seen some rather well -known people do as well.

So we've seen all this And this isn't a slam on the Anglicans. I love my Sydney Anglican brothers down there and there's good solid men there and I had

Anglicans contact me after I made those comments and said yeah, we're sick of it too. We're we're sick of people coming in and That's what they're eyeing doing but they're basically don't have the guts to do it all at once and so You know, they're getting their feet in the water and then

You know, we try to minister to them and then off they go So It has happened many times

Stephen Boyce when he started that direction went Anglo -Catholic and now is converted to full -on

Roman Catholicism It's it's a common It's a common thread getting mad at me about it doesn't change the historical reality that this happens over and over again so Barrett You know and and he's with credo and you know credo is blocking people right left and center

Just it's sad to watch the whole thing But one of the things that I said was when a professor like this has this kind of public conversion and when he has clearly

Been in his work at the seminary Directing people to these kinds of resources.

I Mean, do you really think that the bookstore came up with all these Roman Catholic authors just for the fun of it?

You know didn't have enough Spurgeon titles no, there were there was pressure being applied and So He's gonna have students and When his students see what he's doing

What's going to keep them in their Southern Baptist churches? Well I'd like to think that there are other people at Midwestern providing a response to the sudden influx of Thomism Um, maybe some folks at at Midwestern will do some classes on Baptism and What scripture says about baptism and the historical developments of baptism and the many different Perspectives on baptism that there were in the early church and stuff like that.

Maybe possibly I Don't know That would be nice But um, that was

Keith Foskey actually texting me. Keith isn't listening to the program right now, that's okay I'm gonna be doing something online for them in I believe early

March. That's gonna be sort of fun to do Testing out doing that kind of stuff as well

So anyways back to Barrett It'd be nice if there would be people providing responses on the baptism issue things like that.

I Made the comment to some folks in our church we had had a family leave and become

Presbyterian and I made the comment. I said in The two churches where I've been a pastor

Where I have preached on baptism. I have debated baptism. I've written on baptism the total number of people

Who have come to me? With questions about the subject of baptism before they left and became a paedo -baptist

Zero Not a one nobody nobody they don't want to hear

That means most the time they're they're changing their perspectives not because of some overwhelming biblical argument

But because it's comfortable It's closer to home or whatever else it might be

Family members I get to be in the in crowd. I I get I'm tired of getting the the the

Paedo -baptist pat on the back of it. You'll you'll get it someday. Whatever it's not because the power of the argumentation so Hopefully some folks at Midwestern are providing that kind of response as I actually said in in my response to Barrett Baptists are weak on this

I I think the only The only really strong argument against a strong reformed paedo -baptist perspective is

A strong reformed Baptist perspective a covenantal one. It's it's Hebrews 8.

It's it's the sign of the Covenant It's who's in that Covenant. That's what it's all about and and Reformed Baptists may have different takes on exactly how to formulate those things, but we're all united in Saying hey, here's what

Hebrews 8 says This is what the New Covenant is and you got to do some really wacky stuff to Hebrews 8 to get around what it's saying and to force an

Old Testament paradigm on to The New Testament signs that then caused you to have to redefine what the the

New Testament the New Covenant actually is all about And of course you've got the simple reality and it is a simple reality

That it's more consistent to hold to baptismal regeneration and infant baptism

Then it is to deny Baptismal regeneration and yet practice infant baptism. It just is and I applaud my

Presbyterian brothers who don't give in on that who Reject the idea of ex -opera operat operato

Regeneration baptism and Call their children to repentance and faith More power to you

You're just living inconsistent, that's just all there is to it and You try your best.

I get it you try your best, but the other side's got the better argument at that point and You all have to deal with all that stuff all the time.

It's not something I have to deal with So back to Barrett What he said was he quoted evidently one of his

Um students Connor Shackleford They had a picture of He's converted to Anglicanism and it was a picture of had him having his infants baptized

And in fact, it's interesting Connell Shackleford said from this day forward Theodore Knox is

Sealed by the Holy Spirit in baptism and marked as Christ's own forever

What does that mean that sounds like baptismal regeneration to me it really does and The gymnastics you have to jump through to go.

Well, he's marked as Christ's own forever but then he can violate that and You know that and then there'll there'll be even worse consequences

Because he's been committed to a covenant that he then breaks. That's Generally how it ends up working to where?

That's yeah Anyway, I would think it'd be a lot better to do it the biblical way.

But anyway, here's what Barrett said One joy in becoming

Anglican has been watching a number of former students become Anglican too

Yesterday was special several baptized several baptized their children

Some here at st. Aidan's in Kansas City and some across the country favorite line

Almighty and everlasting father in your great mercy. You saved Noah and his family in the ark from the destruction of the flood prefiguring the sacrament of holy baptism, okay

So I'm not asking for pats on the back for having gone I'm not asking anybody to go.

Okay. Well you called that one Am I hoping that Matthew Barrett will stay

Anglican Well, I'm not sure if you Anglicans are gonna be happy about this. But yeah That would be

I would like I would not like to see him press forward But I'll be perfectly honest with you.

I don't see how he can stay there. I don't see how

He's gonna have a consistent position to defend himself Given the compromises that have already been made on fundamental things and what

I said in my response Yeah, I do not expect any apologies to the past nasty grams

In fact, I expect that even the response to this brief note will be you are so mean to Anglicans or some such thing again

I know Anglicans who are tired of being the rest stop on the way to Rome as well And they've seen it over and over again.

This post isn't about Anglicans conservative or otherwise. It's about Baptists who continued to pretend to be

Baptists long after they abandoned our central commitments and Whether you like it or not the best term

For the commitment Barrett abandoned and taught his students to abandon is

Biblicism You won't be a Baptist for long once you decide tradition is the necessary lens you're going to adopt and There's a bunch of you reformed

I don't get this isn't no bit this isn't and you come up with this modernistic Ridiculous definition of it so you can hammer away on it.

It doesn't matter how many times you get corrected You're just gonna keep repeating it. But the fact the matter is you're not gonna be a

Baptist if The Bible is not your sole infallible rule of faith and practice.

You're not going to Once you do the you need this traditional lens you need this traditional lens you need this thing

You're done The only question is where you're gonna end up and how long it's gonna take you to get there

You're done. Just face the reality guys. Just face the reality.

I Don't know why you're you know, this wasn't an issue before um There was a guy

I Mentioned Stephen Boyce just in passing in my response to the

Matthew Barrett thing and this guy named William Augustine Says, you know writes back to me and Says hey, did you did you hear that Stephen Boyce converted for the

Catholicism? And someone Was kind enough to sort of gently point out to him.

Um, he he mentioned that in the in the article of what he wrote and His response to that was let me say it once I clicked on something.

Of course, it disappeared and I hate when that happens That that that that that that that okay, that's not the rest of any stuff.

Did the Where'd it go? I can't Believe where things just scroll to so fast

There it is he says He says my bad my eyes glaze over when

I see a post longer than 280 characters Now my post was much more than 280 characters

I clicked on his name, you know what he is he's an attorney he's an attorney and His and his eyes glaze over after 280 characters.

I don't know what to say

He could he could be on the Supreme Court And doesn't know what a woman is.

Yep. There you go That's definitely how things happen these days Wow Okay, all right

Then we had another wild and crazy thing here. Hey, the website has been fixed as well.

Good. Good. Thank you People are listening We've You know,

I was talking about the new Christian, right Stuff and all in this hyphenated heresy foolishness and how to waste trees by writing about stuff that isn't even a thing and I look at What's going on right now?

Look at the look at the past week. What have you seen from the new Christian, right? Um interracial marriage discussions,

I mean Dale Partridge Just He took a can of gasoline and he poured it over his head and then

He lit a pipe just to be cool The memes that I have seen you've seen it.

You've seen some of them, haven't you? You know roses are red violets are blue. You're not ideal something I mean, it's just it's just been the the number of them have been

Because instead of staying out of it, he just had to he he has to jump in on everything.

It's just that's just Dale is hang her on her but it's been about Interracial marriage remember a couple years ago when white boy summer came out and he had people producing videos with Nazis in them and Putting images of people that no one would catch it if they didn't know but were

Nazis themselves and white supremacists and all that kind of stuff

This is the this is the world we live in right now So you don't get to start talking about stuff like this without having to deal with the context that is around all this stuff

And there are black supremacists and there are white supremacists and there are Chinese supremacists

Oh, yeah, big time big time. There's a huge amount of racism in China massive amount of reason.

They're very very racist It's all around us and What we see happening, of course is

You take certain statistics. Is there a war on? On Caucasian people.

Yeah, there does seem to be one Are there people now running around saying you need to protect your bloodline?

Yeah, there are people like that too And what you do is you you take stuff you take videos.

There's plenty of videos We're a bunch of black kids beat up on a white kid. That was all time

You take you take statistics where I think you're 42 % more likely to be attacked by a black man than a white man

That's true in the United States. It's true There's no denying it

Why is another issue? No one ever wants to talk about that part and actually deal with it in any meaningful fashion

You take all this stuff and You get people feeling like they're victims. That's what the woke right is the woke left woke right victim and taught mentality

I'm a victim. You'll get them to go doing sane things like blocking ice agents when they're arresting

Horrible people and get themselves shot and everything else And this is how you create division

This is how you create anarchy This is how you absolutely destroy a nation, which is exactly what's happening right in front of our eyes and It's we're not doing anything about it because we can still go to the grocery store fairly safe When the grocery store shelves are empty then

Stuff starts happening. But as long as we're all dumb fat and happy, we're just gonna let this happen right in front of us

That's just how it is anyway, so you you make up these controversies and so now we've got interracial marriage and Samuel say

Now, I know Samuel now. We're not Good buddies. We don't hang out talk all the time, but we've met and we've fellowshiped and have a tremendous amount of respect for him and He's in an interracial marriage, okay an interethnic marriage whatever terms you want to use and So he he writes an article about this

Well, of course the new Christian right has to come out swinging and Clearly the guys that the new

Christian right have the same Attitude the guys that the new

Christian intellectuals had or still have if they're still around and that is that we are we are just so much smarter than anybody else and There's a guy named

CJ Engel Who's a part of that movement and he responds to Samuel say and Samuel had said there is only one chosen race one.

Holy nation one people for God's own possession which is a quotation from Peter, of course and Engel says stop engaging this guy.

He's obviously Incredibly dumb and a bad actor You know when if you're gonna call somebody incredibly dumb

It might be good to make sure they are incredibly dumb and that they haven't been writing really insightful especially pro -life stuff for years and a serious person could like look them up and find out that they're anything but dumb

That might be helpful. That might be helpful. But well talk about all I could say in response was oh the irony.

Oh I guess there's been some responses to that Yeah, okay

Anyway, I'll look at the responses that one a little bit later on One last thing here and I and I I may just touch on this briefly

And this Get back into it tomorrow because I'm not gonna rush it here but we're gonna be doing the program another program tomorrow

It was funny to watch Joel women Try to respond to Joe Joe boot

Joel has completely lost all semblance of humility

He is now believing his own his own press. He really really is I Mean and I'll just tell you this story.

He he tried to respond to Joe boot and he said today's theonomous scare quotes despise theonomy and Then he quotes from R .J.

Rush Juney, he's quoting from R .J. Rush Juney Respond to Joe boot. Have you ever read the mission of God?

It's it's It's six times longer than the longest book Joel weapons ever read.

Okay, and Joe and Joe boot wrote it. Okay you Talk about punching above your weight this was

Amazing and all I could think about because what I what I want to get to but we'll get to on the next program is a thing from from webin about Basically the the

Holy Roman Empire the new Holy Roman Empire that's and it's got a and it has this graphic and the

The leader of the armies the Christian armies looks just like Donald Trump Okay, I mean it was it was the absolute perfect example of What this new

Christian right is all about and how it's really not new But all

I could think about and I spoke at one of Joel weapons conferences, this was before he went off into all this stuff and Joe boot spoke at the same one okay, and One evening there was a

Q &A and Q &A's Q &A's sometimes are worthwhile and most the time really aren't and everybody's are asked to work together to try to make it worthwhile and Yeah but I remember this one because this was the first trip we took with the

Jayco and And I was looking at my phone and there is this massive thunderstorm like purple gray colored

You know hail type thunderstorm Heading right for where the

RV was parked. And so I'm like, oh great This is and if that comes this direction, we're all gonna be standing here in the dark so anyway

Joe and I are sitting there next to each other. So if I recall correctly Which side was

Joe on? With Joe's over here than me and then Joel, okay, and so a question would be asked and I I just remember

That's when I discovered that Joel Webben likes to listen to Joe Webben talk Because he would just go on and on now

He's the one putting on the conference, but he's invited these other guys, okay

But when the questions asked he just goes on on and I remember at one point in fact

I'm pretty certain I made a comment about it. I Don't think I could I could resist it.

I had to say something about but at one point I remember just sort of looking over at Joe who sort of caught my eye at the same time and we didn't have to say anything

We've all been in this situation before But we're sitting here wondering Why are we here?

Why did we travel so far? when this guy just wants to hear himself talk and Wants to answer all the questions himself and not have the invited guests that he's paying to have here

Give any of their expertise because he's got it all himself and he hasn't changed

He has not changed when I when I you know today's theonomous as if he can put scare quotes

He's talking to a guy who knows more about theonomy than then then Joel will ever know and has ever known but Hey he just he just co -authored a book with JD Hall and And what did

JD Hall debate here in the Valley of the Sun he debated against the enemy

Hey, it doesn't matter in the new Christian, right? We all can just be enemies of everybody at the same time

It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let me see if I can find this thing here real quick Well, you're you're looking for that I I did have some thoughts on Dale's tweet that day.

Oh, yeah post. It's not an ideal thing. Yeah, I can imagine he You know, can you imagine him going home that evening and dinner is being served and he asks his wife dear

What what's for dinner and she says? It's less than ideal

Here you go Yeah, here's some I Eating dinner any meal after that post

I'm not sure. I'd want to I'd want to ask somebody else to test taste at first make sure that everything was okay

Yeah, yeah, definitely now. I'm gonna have to where'd this thing go? Yeah, I'll have to track it down.

Anyway The The Graphic was oh, wait a minute.

It was never mind. Never mind Here it is yeah, it's from January 9th and It's it's got a

New Christian right article yoner yoner yoner and The title to the article is the

Holy Western Empire is waiting to be born It's waiting to be born there's a period at the end,

I'm not sure if you put period on titles, but anyway The Holy Western Empire is waiting to be born

You know how many people have tried to resurrect the Holy Roman Empire? How many wars resulted in that?

Yeah, yeah, and then yeah that that graphic that's that looks a whole lot like You know