Dr. James White & Jeff Durbin Talk Mormonism (Live)

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00:09

All right, everybody welcome to the live streams everybody's watching right now Thank you guys.

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Well everybody who is watching right now everybody who's watching right now. Thank you guys. So dr White is out here all at the

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Mormon Temple of Mesa Huge blessing. Here's pastor Luke So for those of you guys that are just getting on I can just disappear in the

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Luke's chest. That's right. So For those of you guys that are just getting on be cool

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This is just it's a real encouragement for me when I first started doing this. Um, I came in 1996. So 22 years

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I've been coming out here now and when I came out it looked a little different. There weren't these walls right here We had so much space to move freely and no railroad

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That's right Yeah, that park over there was a dangerous place to hang out. He was he was here

00:59

Craig was there Craig was on we had dinner last night Craig said he's been here for 40 years 40 years 41 years.

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Okay 41 years. So, um first time I met dr. White I was I was 18 years old

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I didn't know anybody out here. I had just moved here and I scared me. Yeah, I saw that there were

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Mormons gonna be out here. So I came here by myself Bible and I had a Backpack full of like Gerald and Sandra Tanner stuff like, you know photocopy no

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Google then so I had no ability to just put it on my phone and I remember when I came up I I think

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I stood right over here at first I saw a big crowd of people Right over here surrounding dr. White and I came over and I got to listen and I was just so encouraged and just Blessed that there are other believers that were out here

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And I remember that one of the first book I had read as a Christian was the King James only controversy

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Which is still amazing in a while Isn't it crazy that God got me that book as the first Christian book

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I ever read was the King James only controversy because I was in a Christian bookstore and These two guys are having a debate over which

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Bible I should buy and so a guy gave me that book and I had read That so I asked rich rich was with you.

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I asked him. I said who is this guy? He said, oh, that's James White I was like James what Jim not the

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King James only controversy. He's like, yeah, that's him I was like, oh my goodness. So that's when we first met All these years of ministry out here so many encouraging things have happened people have come to Christ Through this ministry and only guys have showed up King James only streets creatures have showed up and Caused a ruckus, but one

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I just want to say this that it was encouraging to me early on to see dr. White out here Ministering and this kind of a place.

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I thought to myself as everyone is telling me don't go out there. That's rude. It's unkind That's not how you win people.

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I thought well Here's the guy that knows the gospel knows the Word of God and he sees the importance of this

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So I kept coming and as I came over the years, I saw these amazing opportunities that God provided of conversations centering around Christ and the gospel

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I saw just so much fruit that I knew I had to keep coming and through this ministry and all the work out here through the stuff that we have recorded and put

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Up people around the world have come to Christ through watching these videos Mormons have come out of Mormonism to Christ Last night.

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I think you're gonna get to see this content last night I was talking to a young man that came up to me in the middle of a conversation a second.

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I talked to you he Went on his mission been LDS all his life

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He'd been he's been watching our videos from out here at the temple. God's been using those to open his eyes He says now he knows the truth

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The church is not giving the true Christ and gospel and so he basically said I have a few last questions for you before I I Think I can come to Christ and like truly believe so like these

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Little moments out here turning the camera on and having these conversations With Latter -day Saints have really blessed people in a tremendous way.

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So I'm encouraged by I love this ministry. Did you know that um two years? This is gonna be done for two years.

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You know, I I heard someone say something about that What what do you mean? So I from what

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I understand they're they're gonna basically renovate the entire visitor center They're gonna take it down.

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They're gonna take it down and move it and then they're gonna renovate the inside of the temple So for the next few years, no

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Mormon Easter pageant, no Christmas lights So we're gonna have for the first time and go out to conference start going to conference

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And I can I can suggest a place of places to stop on the way the best restroom Yes, where taco time is

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I demand however, you must eat a taco time. Why talk about time? It's tradition

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It's tradition. Okay, and make sure we do it. The problem is though When I forced everybody to do that when we were doing that they renamed the restaurant taco time bomb taco time bomb

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I'm taco time bomb. Yeah Because it could come back at you a little bit later on but so it's just a tradition thing.

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For example My my daughter -in -law's with me this evening. We were you know, where we ate before he came here

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Arby's Arby's Arby's See I do that as there used to be in Arby's right there. Yeah, and it was just simply tradition before going to the

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Easter Well, that's right. I don't have any traditions. I just you have no tradition. I just read the Bible So, yeah, you know we started doing this the freeway ended at Country Club in 1983 when my wife and I on a

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Kawasaki 440 Rode out here because I had heard this thing called the Easter pageant.

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I stood up against the wall. Whoa over there That's my bad Luke's trying to kill me.

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Okay Stood over against the wall over at Arby's and looked at all that's going on and said, oh my goodness

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We've got we've got to do something. Yeah, and the next year You never got to meet

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Wally Tope. Did you know I didn't know but you know of him I do Yeah, he was killed in the LA riots, right? Wally Tope was the last person to die in the

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LA riots and He came out with us and I learned so much about effective

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Tract distribution. I mean he was a go -getter I mean he he really would get stuff out and he knew his stuff and he was very very interesting fellow

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And then the next year 1985 as my senior evangelism project at Grand Canyon College We came out here.

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We must have had 30 people. Oh, yeah, we had walkie -talkies We had jackets

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We had a track called what the Mormon Church teaches about Jesus Christ. My dad worked at a large

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Southern Baptist Church printed it up it's we still have that one available in a few numbers, but and we had

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We covered that corner there each one of these the one down there Going in and everybody could get hold of me if they had conversations they wanted me to get

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I mean we highly organized it and we did it in an organized fashion and For many years we would do that and go up to Salt Lake City and sometimes they would be concurrent

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So we'd have one right here in Mesa and one group up in in Salt Lake City. We did that for 18 18 years until the

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King James only guys started showing up in Salt Lake Abusing people yelling and screaming at people and they hated me more than they hated the

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Mormons, right? So people wearing Skullcaps and and it just it turned it turned everything into a zoo and you can't expect the

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Mormons Differentiate between them and us in the first place, right? They're just walking out and there's people out here doing weird stuff.

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So that actually ended our trips up to Salt Lake City and then they started showing up out here, right and so that's really where you know where things changed and you guys started doing the

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Christmas light stuff, which we had never done. Yeah because it's just absolutely mean and terrible to do that at Christmas, but but And then you know, you've been doing the you know this out here

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And so I've come out a couple times but I don't I don't want to end up dragging those King James only guys back because you've got a good thing going on here

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And the fact the matter is they just don't hate you as much as they hate me. Right, right You're I'm sure you're working on it.

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But yeah, yeah Well Reuben Israel was on the first episode of hate thy neighbor. Did you know that? Doesn't surprise me so that yeah, they did the show on I did know that they did their first ones on Reuben Israel.

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Yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so No, it's not his real name. No, I didn't know that Yeah, it sounds like an interesting name.

08:39

Oh, is it Mario? Okay, Mario that makes more sense. Actually looking at him. I can see Mario Yeah, so So I guess a lot of people watching this

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Might wonder because it's not typical for like the Evangelical Church in the West to do this kind of Work like to come to a place with the gospel message or people are trying to watch a show and to tell them

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You know, you know We love you and you want to talk to you about the true Christ in the gospel people say that's not really effective

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It seems just like out of the spirit of how we ought to be evangelizing or just not what our culture would accept today

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You know, we've had a lot of people show up out here over the years that didn't have really good motives

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Right to why they were here. Oh, I've seen that. Yeah, I remember one year The the door

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Christian Fellowship showed up. Yep. Do you remember that? Absolutely. Okay, and Man did they get slaughtered?

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I mean, I remember a guy standing they've rebuilt it. He was standing right on top of that thing over there with the yellow bike next to it and It's when this place lets out this whole area is is jam -packed.

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Oh, yeah So he's standing up there and he's he starts deciding he's gonna preach You need to repent and all the

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Mormons saying I'm going we did right need to believe in Jesus We do right, you know because he knew nothing about what the specific issues were right the gospel ended up being mocked

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They're not accomplishing anything more than once I had to wade into conversations and Rescue some of their people because they were getting you know

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Run around the gum stuff because they didn't know what the world they were talking about So there are some people who who will come out and do things but not with necessarily

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Preparation and and wanting to actually reach out to the morning people. But one thing that we should mention

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It's a lot different now. Yes, then it was when we started right? I mean it is a lot different now

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And I think a lot of it has to do With changes in culture and changes in the

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LDS Church itself We used to come out, you know six nights And by the last night we would be horse

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We would be exhausted because of all the conversations that we have been able to get into with large groups of people

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I mean the kids the young kids That's what was awesome would come up to you and they knew what they believe right and they would argue it and they would and things like that and now

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Even even the last few years that we were doing this I would have to carry a big old pack

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This is before you could put the entire LDS reference library on your phone, right? I'd carry an entire pack with Mormon doctrine teachings the

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Prophet Joseph Smith marvelous working wonder whatever else might be So that I could tell adult

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Mormons what they actually believe right? So you have to kind of convert into Mormonism before you could then explain.

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Yeah the road you're out here and that is Does not bode well for the future

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Yeah of the Mormon Church, right really really does not there have been major major Fundamental core changes and I was mentioning my daughter -in -law at Arby's Did you know?

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Just I wonder how long it's gonna be before someone comes up from Southern, Utah And says, you know what?

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I was ordained by Apostle so -and -so and so 50 years ago the priesthood and ever since then the leaders have apostatized

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They've left But I still have the priesthood authority We're going back to what we believe and a new church starts not a polygamous

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Church But a church that would be able to say we're going to emphasize the things that made us grow right in the 1970s and 80s

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There's no longer there, right that Joseph Smith had a first vision that the Book of Mormon is really true where you get rid of all this wacky stuff where You can't find any archaeological evidence because it only happened in a three square acre area or something like right if that happens whoever stands up and does that It's going to have a lot of people listening because I know a lot of Mormons that are

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They just feel they feel betrayed. They feel lost. They feel like the leadership has just wandered off into none of them.

12:57

Mm -hmm and So that's why when we talk to people I was just talking with someone

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I'm not getting into details but one of the things that I emphasized to that person was you Must it's it's not enough to know what's wrong

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With a faith, right if you're gonna leave you need to be focused upon what's true.

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Yes rather than just simply what's wrong with something else, right and Unfortunately, there is a

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Widening backdoor of Mormonism today, but those people aren't necessarily ending up in true churches, right with with the gospel

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They're ending up, you know, just like after 1975 with Jehovah's Witnesses You had over a million people leave the

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Watchtower Battle and Track Society the next few years 99 plus percent of them are the religiously abused they did not end up in a true church.

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They've ended up Just out there no longer listening to anybody right and so That's that's a tragedy

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Yeah And in fact, sometimes those people are harder to reach than the people who are still actively believing that happened to me the other night

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I mean, it's happened a couple times this past week. I've run into the people that Google has

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Converted to atheism, right? They discover through this wide Just availability of information and easy access to documentation that we had 20 years ago right in our libraries

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It's just a click click of a button. It's all right there for you. You want a picture of the seer stone? Hey, it's online. Got it, right?

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He's okay So I run into several people that have have left they've gone through that wide door and they've now said, okay, it's obvious It's obvious.

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He wasn't a prophet. It's obvious that this is false This is false and so they've gone right into atheism or agnosticism and that is that is a sad thing and I do tell people that When I see someone kind of teetering on the edge

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I say the most important thing for you to understand is that this isn't about now There is no truth and God hasn't spoken this is specifically about God had already given us standards to test

14:55

Joseph by in the Book of Mormon and You never even went that route And it's about coming to the true

15:01

Christ and knowing Jesus and being reconciled having peace with God, right? Yeah Yeah, you know

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I was I was telling I keep I keep mentioning her but I think she keeps hiding on me I was telling my daughter -in -law

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About some of the missionaries that we've talked to over the years and how well first of all Have you noticed you want to clear a signal of the liberalism that is taking over the

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Mormon Church? Have you seen the ties the missionaries are wearing anymore? Right? Yes. I mean they are like fluorescent pink, right?

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Okay, that never would have happened Way they would have gotten away with that and they have nice hipster man bags now no more backpacks

15:38

Absolutely astounding. Yeah, the apostasy clearly the necktie Wearing of the of the

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Mormons, but but I I remember I was I was showing her We were standing right over actually where she is over there

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And I met I was talking with elder Hollywood Hollywood you never forget that one elder

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Hollywood that wasn't his name But he had a name badge literally that he had had made elder

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Hollywood he was as tall as Luke He was, you know, good -looking young guy very confident shall we say and He figured he could just you know, wrap me around his finger and well he's the one who got really rattled and at one point we're standing right on that corner and he's gets really upset and Finally loud enough for people as far away as we are here

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He gets in my face and I'm literally leaning back because he's literally as tall as you are I'm leaning back and he gets in my face.

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He says someday I'm gonna be a god and you are gonna worship me. Oh my goodness, and he stops because his voice is echoing and it's sort of like in cartoons where everyone just goes and Everyone's looking yeah, and Everyone's just like did we just hear him say that openly and out loud like that?

17:03

Yeah, and he's sort of like and So he was embarrassed by that So the next night he comes up to me and says hey, you know,

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I got a little heated last evening, you know I'm sorry about that And so I was able to to give him some stuff and I was able to talk with him about some things much more calmly

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You know what the sad thing is I mean, that's that's a great story and that we got to talk and you got to share stuff with him probably ten years later

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I'm at the North or South gate of remember we forget which one it was I think it was the North Gate of the temple in Salt Lake City during general conference and guess who walks up to me

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But the same elder Hollywood Not wearing not wearing a badge or anything like that He comes up to me and says you remember me and I'm like, yeah elder

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Yeah, he says yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know, you remember both casting start talking a little bit.

17:59

So, where are you now? This is well I'm not a Mormon. Really. What are you? Here's here's a guy who obviously didn't have quite the right attitude.

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Mm -hmm, even from the LDS perspective as a missionary but He digs into it and he finds out

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There really isn't anything there and therefore he doesn't believe there's anything else to look for. Mm -hmm, and that's that that's really sad

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Mm -hmm, that's that's really sad So they're just you can hear it. You're talking about here at the microphone the the you're gonna hear noises and thunder some people

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Watching this ever wondering like they're saying why can't you turn the music off because it's not our event guys

18:45

So they're just getting started now It's about an hour long production. It's actually if you could see it, it's

18:52

Pretty big production. It's bit. It's a big big production Changed a lot since from when you started coming obviously

18:58

It's yeah and in production and structure and even what's said in a play

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Well, the set itself still looks a lot like it has for a long time. Do they still have?

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Jesus taking on the sins the world in the garden that that portion actually the thing has changed I think I'm not sure if you've seen it.

19:15

Well you were here last year But now they're actually as commentary In so I used to be people would say how can you disagree with this is word -for -word from the

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King James Bible You don't like the King James Bible, but now they've actually changed that there's actually commentary in Sections throughout like about baptism

19:34

Yeah, they'll insert doctrinal things Didn't you say one time you came out and they were playing? Holy.

19:39

Holy. Holy. That was you you heard that. Oh, yeah. Yeah God in three persons

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Blessed Trinity. Yes at the Mormon temple Well, it was meant it was obviously meant to make people comfortable, right?

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Because they really they're really their desire is to have as many Non -lds people attending and seeing what looks familiar to them as they can possibly have.

20:00

Yeah Now what's changed? Is that you look around here now and in years past, especially when we were covering all of the corners

20:11

They would have missionaries and I remember so clearly I took a picture of it I still have the picture someplace of a missionary who hold pulls up the the flap on his on his

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Pocket on his thing to show how many of our tracks He had stuffed into his pocket that he had managed to get from people.

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Oh, yeah Oh, yeah, and I just remember saying you will be held accountable for every single one of them but there used to be such a

20:39

Incredibly strong Yeah Fact is it was a whole lot easier to talk to Mormons who actually believed

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Mormonism That's that's the that's the key thing that the big difference that makes it actually so tough today

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Is that is just on that point like back when we started this You talked to somebody that believed

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Mormonism wanted to fight for they wanted to go to the Bible and argue They want to convert you and me right that you were wrong about that interpretation.

21:07

This is the real way to interpret that right now Oh, you've got yours. I've got mine

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The Hindus have got theirs. Yeah. Yeah, we'll run into one out of a hundred that maybe talks with us

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It's that guy that's like no This is the truth and you're wrong and I've studied it So and that makes it much more difficult because they're just they just don't care.

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No, they just don't care. You're fine. We're fine We believe in Jesus. You're good. You're fine. I mean people used to call me a

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Gentile People used to acknowledge that yeah, you're You're kicking against the goads at least told me

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I was gonna make it to the Terrestrial kingdom. I didn't even get that must have been the tattoos

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Careful I know Now you have the Hebrew Israelites to call you gentle.

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Yeah. Well, yeah Now I have that talk about Hebrews. I have that new group that that that gets everything really weird I know it gets people in a tizzy.

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So, um, well, let me let's do it this way. So What what would you say is

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Different theological. I know there's so much. It's hard to pin this down So it's almost like a too broad of a question, but I'll just this might be helpful.

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What's different today in terms of theological? Presuppositions where they're at now.

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I'm talking about Salt Lake like, you know the central from like classical Mormonism So I mean because there's classic

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Mormon teaching I mean you have guys that are like that I I watched a video recently where the guy was like Of course,

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I believe in Adam God doctrine. That's what Brigham taught like he's part of a sect of Mormonism but like there's kind of a stream of classical

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Mormon thinking and there's two they're still there, right? there are still Mormons who will stand and argue their point the problem is they are now a

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Sort of a they're the outliers. They're they're not the norm Whether it's be the missionaries or everyone else

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I Trace it back and the guy's name is escaping me. Sorry. I can see it.

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I can see the prophets face but he had been the head of The the church publicity department basically and when he became prophet

23:14

He was the one who? Would would go on nightline and things like that Benson.

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No, no, it was Think it was after not Hinkley Hinkley.

23:26

I wasn't Hinkley. Okay. Yeah Gordon Hinkley You really sort of trace it back to there and you start seeing a real de -emphasis upon the idea that what that promises is

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Objectively real in the sense of the centrality of exaltation to God, okay once Hinkley is sort of like And you know, we're not we're not we're not necessarily certain about this out of the other thing that's where you there was something about Mormonism that gave people a

24:02

They were committed to it because I mean they were really putting all their eggs in one basket and that one basket is

24:08

I'm gonna become a god Now if all you do is sort of whisper about that in the right celestial room

24:17

It's it seemingly has lost its central place in the consciousness of your average

24:24

There is I have a great story about just what that looks like. That's perfect I was

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I was about halfway down there. I'm talking to this young return missionary young guy and And I'm trying to get to the point of we're surrounded by people.

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That's okay So let's just get to what you actually believe. Do you believe that? Joseph taught and I said, you know, there's gods before God you can become a god one day.

24:48

He wouldn't touch it He's like, you know, I don't really know I saw I'm showing him text.

24:54

I'm pulling out stuff to return missionary I mean, he just wouldn't say it and I said listen, you're not gonna offend me.

25:00

It's not gonna hurt my feelings I'm not gonna try to hurt you over it Just say it cuz I know that you believe it Joseph taught it and I'm referencing things and even when

25:07

I'm quoting it Everyone's looking at him waiting for him to sort of just go ahead and say it and he's like Don't and the whole time there's this old guy standing right here and he's got he's got a cane

25:17

And he's just standing there and I remember I kept looking at him. He's looking at him. He's looking at me He's looking at him. He's waiting for him just to answer the question after like 10 minutes.

25:25

I'm frustrated He finally looks over and he and I said, so are you gonna become a god one day to the young man?

25:31

And the old guy Sam over there. He goes. Yes. I am and he goes and I'm gonna do it He points his cane right over there

25:39

But that shows the yeah, this is the young guy is like wow, I don't know maybe

25:44

I don't and the old guy He I mean, he's barely hanging on on his cane and he's like, what are you doing?

25:50

Yes, we're gonna become gods one day But yeah, I think that that's a huge and I think that gave a sense of community mission

25:58

Belonging all that stuff is just it's just evaporating and that's from from my perspective This movement is just waiting for someone to come along who would be a charismatic leader and Cause a real mess

26:12

Yeah, I think that I don't want to be crass and saying this but I think that a lot of latter -day saints today are

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Susceptible to being picked off by the right leader And I mean like some of these splinter groups that come off that are like no,

26:25

I'm devoted to Joseph's teaching He said this it's right here in the text. I think somebody is It would be really

26:31

I agree they're really easily brought in that they wouldn't Necessarily include some of the polygamy stuff, right if they if they made a respectable

26:41

You know what would look like something that would be acceptable in mainstream American life I think they could they could split this church in two faster than Than anything because there have been so many changes and so even though this hasn't changed a whole lot

26:55

And it's not like they've come out at General Conference said That blood atonement thing we're getting rid of that or you know, we we no longer really believe that the priesthood is necessary It's still there in the books.

27:08

It's still there in the manuals But everything has just become so muted and and watered down That why should why should your average

27:17

Mormon be excited about it? If it's clear the leadership isn't excited about it, right? So, you know, that's that's where I think a lot of this is

27:25

Coming from so a lot of a lot of what we've done out here to record and to put this stuff up is to is To do two things one to allow

27:32

Mormons that are questioning things to see it and to really start digging in and the other is

27:37

To start equipping Christians to do this kind of work and God's used it in that way So if somebody's watching this now They're seeing the content we put out on this and they say like I really want to start investing myself into reaching the modern

27:48

Mormon I think I almost feel like it would have been different 20 years ago in terms of how you answered that Yeah, but like what what do you do now if you want to reach the modern

27:58

Mormon the guy next door? Well, you still have to understand historic Orthodox Mormon teaching right to be able to translate the language the language is still a problem

28:11

In other words, there's still the same Man -centered emphasis upon worthiness and work salvation

28:19

Yes, and you still have this this form of polytheism Even if they don't have a clear thought about how they're gonna become

28:27

God's it's still it's still there So you need to know it, but just recognize that your average

28:34

Mormon today. You're still gonna run into some of them That are praying for Bruce Armacont he derives from the dead and thunder his way into right church office building, right?

28:44

There are ours are ones like that, but but that your average Mormon is just not there anymore

28:51

And what you're facing is is a massive amount of subjectivism And that's the case and that's the case with so much of the society these days

29:01

Anyway, I was just gonna say that it's you have to be prepared to do the work of challenging subjectivism and of course

29:11

Mormonism historically You can go to their own scriptures or their own their own quotations and Demonstrate that they were not something, you know, there's always been a deadly strain of it with the testimony

29:23

Yeah, that foundation is a problem, right their foundation has always been flawed, right?

29:28

But Joseph Smith claimed that certain things really did happen in the Book of Mormon It really did happen in the first vision or whatever else it might be.

29:37

So there are objective claims That you can grab on to there and and oh, hey watch this

29:44

And then you have what Brigham Young said in journal discourse is volume 16 page 46 and he said take up the

29:50

Bible Compare the religion of the Latter -day Saints with it and see if it's true. Yes. Yes. That's right You know the last time

29:56

I read that was about 30 years ago, really? So I have not completely lost my life Do you know that you know, do you know why

30:03

I have that memorized a much of what I have memorized in terms of Mormon Quotations Joseph Smith Brigham Young I have it memorized because Walter Martin in all of his tapes and all of his lectures and all of his debates with Mormons He would quote it was so much fire

30:18

That I just listened to it over and over and that's how I got burned into my brain That quote from Brigham is from Walter.

30:23

I got in my head No, I that quote came from me reading it and I got it from Wally Toe. Okay, and But it just came from repeating it in Salt Lake City Every six months and out here in the year over and over and over again 30 years later

30:37

It's still there. Yeah, I don't I don't review that stuff to try to keep it fresh. Yep So yeah, it's comes from having done this but you know, here we are

30:46

And you look around here and one of the things that's strange to me Is the kids

30:53

What about them in in the past They got bored watching this and they would come out and talk to us.

31:01

Yes Now I Don't know what's changed

31:07

But they don't Yeah last night. We had one unusual Instance where they did but that was definitely this doesn't happen anymore.

31:15

It was kind of exciting. I was really excited Here's some Mormon teenagers that believe it and I'm trying to fight with us like no, this is true.

31:21

You're wrong. Yeah It was it was encouraging yeah, but no,

31:26

I think you're right about that. Yeah, there's there's the opportunities we see now are Pretty much when they first come in or when they're leaving and there's really not much in between because yeah

31:37

There's not a lot of interaction. They don't come out to us very often. So Yeah Well, but I think that reflects the idea of Yeah, we've got the truth, but it's but you've got some truth to as well

31:49

And that's just what has changed in the attitude of the missionaries and things like that Between the 1980s and now it has just changed a tremendous amount

31:59

But still you have opportunities and you you take the opportunities that you that you have so that so from a

32:08

Christian philosophical standpoint a Christian being able to respond to subjectivism is not just going to help with the subjectivism of Mormonism Today the more people but cultural so let's talk about that for a second

32:19

That might be helpful overall because people can get letters to a Mormon elder. Dr. White's book dealing with Mormonism Some other good resources, obviously if you don't have kingdom of the cults in your library

32:28

That's a good resource in terms of some overall stuff Which edition I would say the earlier editions that Walter Martin wrote would be helpful my opinion, right?

32:39

No, am I missing something? Do you want do you want me to talk about this live on Facebook? Well, maybe not I don't think there's anything wrong about it.

32:45

I write There is a there was a time in the late 90s when an edition of The kingdom of cults came out where the material on Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses was

33:03

Greatly Modernized and accurate Accuratized and I did it but I never let my name be attached to it.

33:13

Mm -hmm Unfortunately, the book was then taken away from the people who've done that and reverted back to its original forms there were some problems

33:26

In his in the factual materials, for example, just give an example We'll use something other than Mormonism in the

33:32

Jehovah's Witness chapter From the beginning it had said that Jesus identifies the Alvin Omega in Codex Vaticanus In the book of Revelation, okay,

33:43

I miss Codex Vaticanus ends in Hebrews. Okay, it doesn't go into the book of Revelation. I Caught that and fix that the modern editions have it back.

33:51

Oh, no, there's back So what's happened is that the new editions they won't allow

33:56

Martin's words to be Edited or updated or corrected when there were issues. So if you can find the mid -1990s

34:06

Edition then at least in some of those areas some of those issues because look Walter was a pioneer and a lot of us had a lot of time to Go through a lot of that stuff and sort of clean up some of the things

34:20

Yeah, sure that he didn't have the opportunity of cleaning up I mean that one that I mentioned to you how many people know where Codex Vaticanus ends, right?

34:26

Right, because Codex Vaticanus actually goes through Revelation, but from Hebrews 9 14 onwards It's a 10th century minuscule that's been sewn into into the text.

34:35

So how many people know that it's weird, right? You have to be one of those weird textual critical guys, right? That's me. So right so so we caught that type of stuff

34:41

But yeah, so I'm not I'm not putting putting Martin down that I mean given the range of material he was dealing with it

34:47

Yeah, so in terms of the story understanding like if you want if you didn't understand any of this in terms of story

34:54

How to interact I'd say letters to Mormon elder. I think if you're gonna witness to Mormons You should go to dr. White's website a omen org

35:01

Just actually a bright easier to Google it just Google 100 verse memorization system Right 100 verse memorization system a omen and he'll come up on Google click on that I think you really if you're if you're if you're committed to reaching the

35:14

Mormon people I can't think of honestly. I think it needs to be a book to be honest with you I think I really do I think it should you should put it in a book form and people should be able to put that In a library all that stuff is in letters really is it okay?

35:27

Yeah, all that stuff's in letters at least as far as the the the heart of it in the material of it Sure, so it'll be helpful that that's a helpful resource in terms of understanding some

35:35

Mormon history stuff I think one nation under gods is Is a good like a good kind of novel like reading of the history one nation under gods.

35:43

Have you read that? Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good just sort of like a good fast This is what happened is really helpful

35:49

Gerald and Sandra Tanner their ministry. You cannot beat in terms of Content information history you just you just can't beat it one good resource

35:58

I will recommend is it's a little it's a book. I have my bag. I'm not gonna grab it right now But it's a it's a little booklet.

36:04

It's called. Where does it say that? Oh, yeah, it's been my my next to the Bible my greatest resource for Mormon evangelism

36:12

It's photocopies of pages of that is available electronically. Yeah, it might be but I still have the old beat -up version

36:20

Yeah, sure, because yeah, it's Wow because it's blessed From all this work.

36:25

It's a relic. Yeah, that's right. It's a relic. It's a Jeff Jeff relic Yes, so that's really helpful

36:30

Where does it say that is is a way that when you're talking to someone's Latter -day Saint and they say? We don't believe that you say well

36:36

Joseph taught us a where does it say that and it's like well It's right here But one thing that has changed is that even when we use that in the olden days

36:43

If it was from the journals or something like that, well, you know, that's the journals that did that now I don't care if it's in the

36:50

Doctrine and Covenants. I'm now encountering Mormons. It'll say yeah. Well, you know Joseph Smith He was a prophet but hey, you've got

36:57

Jonah and you've got stuff in the Bible and they'll they'll literally admit Yeah, Joseph is probably wrong about that.

37:03

But hey, I mean that's really what is amazing to me Why you would believe the man was a prophet and yet hold that level of definition of prophethood.

37:12

I can't even begin to write so You will run into that. So, okay So let's kind of deal with that because I think that'll give you you can come on ahead

37:22

That's it that those are good enough resources as they are at least as a start Just start getting your feet wet

37:27

But I think it'd be good to talk about that subjectivism because I think what we run into the most out here is just that point

37:33

You know Obviously the Mormon missionaries are taught in their missionary training manuals If you can't answer a question if somebody gives you a tough question, it says to just bear your testimony

37:43

So they just go back to my experience. That's what we taught everybody at my Southern Baptist Church years ago, too

37:49

Just if you can't answer questions bury testimony. Oh, man That's awful, yep

37:57

So you run into that often you have people saying precisely that Well, I'll bear my testimony.

38:03

I feel it's true. I've prayed about it I had a guy out here last night named Jason I mean after verse after verse after verse and he just had no response and just even tried to say look

38:12

You can't take away my experience. I know my experience so that bleeds over into cultural conflict

38:18

We have today where someone says, you know, I know that you know, it looks like I'm a man but I feel like a woman

38:23

I'll tell you what or You know, whatever, you know, you can't you unfortunately brought up an old song from my days

38:31

I Think I might have done that purposeful So then someone today might say, you know, love is love and you can't take away my experience

38:41

I believe God is good with this You know my relationship and not a single one of them actually lives that out in their life

38:47

Not a single one of them is going to live that as they walk across the street over here They know that there are certain objective realities.

38:55

For example, if you walk against the light These cars that are moving quickly are going to crush your body when they run into you

39:02

They're going to live in such a fashion that they are going to be a walking contradiction So as you know what you do since man is made in the image of God is you just give them enough rope so they they they tie themselves up and deliver themselves over to you and Well, that's the

39:19

Mormon or that's the the agnostic or the whoever else it might be Since we live in God's world

39:25

Since we're made in God's image, they're eventually going to tip their hand It may take a little while, you know, but they're eventually going to tip their hand if you're listening carefully to the consistency of what they're expressing

39:41

Eventually, they're going to contradict themselves and that's when you step in and that's when you bring the Word of God to bear and you hold

39:47

Them accountable the fact you said this now you're doing this You're contradicting yourself and you the reason you're doing that is because you are

39:57

God's creature you're accountable to him. And here's what you're missing. That's right

40:03

And everybody will eventually do it. Unfortunately sometimes out here. You don't have time to really Get into it enough to be able to make it work the way it should well

40:11

I last night what I was saying to Jason this this devoted Mormon is You know,

40:16

I've given him verses and he's not responding. He just does not even bother He says you can't take away my experience.

40:22

I as well. How do you know that it's true? How do you know because you reject God's Word you won't stand on it You're just saying because you you've you've experienced

40:29

God in some way and that's how you know, it's true He said yeah, that's how I know. It's true. I've experienced it. I said, okay

40:35

So I said give let's let's try this on I said say I'm a Mormon friend of yours. We're brothers and you know of the same faith and We've known each other for long enough for you to confront me and I say

40:46

I have my my girlfriend and I tell you that you know as Mormons we've decided that we're gonna sleep together before marriage and we've prayed about that and we feel like God is comfortable with That like God is

40:54

God's God's at peace with that and I said, how would you how would you respond to me as a

41:00

Mormon? If I told you that what would you go to and he knew what I was doing. I saw I just saw it he goes

41:07

Man, he goes bro. I you know, I would just say like he's kind of like you got to do you man Like and I was like gotta do

41:12

I said, you know that that's not what you would say to your friend I said, would you not point to God's Word eventually he cracked?

41:20

Yeah, I'd do that. I'd go to God's where God says you can't do that. And that's the point You won't live consistently with that standard just pray about it

41:28

It's just experience it because you know when when the going gets tough and you're faced with a moral conflict within the

41:34

Mormon communion You don't simply say oh, you know pray about your adultery brother, you know, he's saying

41:41

God says thou shalt not And I said and that's the point We know what

41:46

God has said in his word about who he is about no gods before him not after him But who Christ is and salvation and that's where you ought to stand in testing

41:54

Joseph and seeing whether or not this is the truth So you're right. It's just get like Van Till says give him enough time and they'll hang themselves

42:01

And and it's it's a it's a clear evidence of the truthfulness of the Christian truth claims in the world view

42:08

Yes, that wherever we are whatever language it's in that's what you're gonna find That's right.

42:15

So so so, you know, I'm wondering about King ginger back here. Yes You know the newly married guy.

42:22

Did you meet her yet? No, I haven't. Okay But I'm sitting here going we've been doing this for like I don't know how many how long we've been standing over here talking

42:30

And the poor guy just just stands there. He's had such a busy busy week too. He's been working hard Marcus is buying the camera

42:38

And then his wife Laura, she's here now. They're Laura set up a new home now Did you really know this was what it was gonna be like?

42:56

Life behind the camera Yeah, but he's hiding over there yes

43:03

Camera shy. Yes, I guess Excuse us. Have you seen these new bikes all over Tempe? I have they are there

43:10

I do not understand this situation because you don't live in Tempe But all over Tempe these yellow bikes are just laying in random places

43:19

So I guess how it works is obviously you check you you basically you find it you pick it up You can swipe your card or check it out but when you're done with it, you literally just and They have a person that comes around like has

43:30

GPS and like picks them up and but like literally all you have to do is Just sort of just toss it on the side of the road. And that's all there is

43:37

It's the weirdest. It must be the government only the government could think of something. So Because I mean,

43:43

I wonder how much it costs to have somebody come around and picking up the GPS Yeah to pick them up on all that. So Okay, so let's

43:51

I guess maybe wrap this up something helpful for people. What is so I have a Mormon neighbor and Has anybody been like sending questions about Mormonism?

44:01

Yeah, how about that? Oh, okay. Well, let me do that Let's do that. If you guys have quite, you know, I what do you do you have

44:06

Verizon? Yes, okay, cuz Verizon signal right here in this area is says LTE.

44:12

Yeah, mine does too It says four bars and then try to see if it works for yours. The data for Verizon is like stalled here

44:19

Well, he has T -Mobile for some reason that works fine here. But yeah Verizon Okay, guys, there's you and me.

44:27

That's us. All right guys, so we're gonna open it up just for a few more minutes here Quite see it.

44:32

There you go. You can't play a video I can almost comment on my own thing. It's Yeah Thank you.

44:41

Thanks, Laura. Hey, you should say hi to Laura's new wife or my largest Marcus's new

44:46

Marcus's new wife Laura Sorry Sorry, it's been a long day 233 comments

44:57

Okay Yeah, suddenly became a self -company commercial right T -Mobile works right here. Oh, hey shout out time from summer.

45:03

Oh, hey summer What's up summer? Oh Hey summer summer summer help to make these tracks these new tracks

45:14

Okay, so let's see, oh see it's not let me okay. Well, I've got Okay, I'll just do yours because I I can't they gave the website for the

45:25

Tanners one day Jeff Downs is Hey, Jeff. Jeff's a great apologetics resource

45:30

Jeff Downs Lebanon Presbyterian Church, I think Just posted the link to where you can get one nation under God So Daniel good one just has do

45:40

Mormons consider the Bible as legit at all the article of faith says Insofar that it is translated correctly

45:47

Joseph taught that it's missing many plain and precious parts Essentially the teaching is the

45:52

Bible has been corrupted Joseph Smith did give the JST Joseph Smith translation where he added a prophecy of himself in to the

46:01

Bible So imagine that and he he'd altered the meaning of the text Dr. White was actually talking to somebody earlier about one significant place where he actually altered the text and changed the doctrinally

46:12

He reversed it from the God who justifies the God who does not justify right? So Romans chapter 4 just total total reversal because he couldn't understand how

46:20

God could justify someone solely by faith and not by works So yeah, Romans chapter 4 where the Apostle Paul says how is it credited to him?

46:27

He says That He also changed stuff in John 6 he inserted prophecies about himself

46:35

It was some people argue. He never finished it It was haphazard. He had no idea what in the world he was doing right at all.

46:42

Oh, no. No, not at all He had no translation. No, so he said the portion in Romans 4 where he says

46:48

To him who works his wage is not credited as a gift But as what is due but to him who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly

46:56

His faith is credited as righteousness Joseph changes that to right does not

47:02

Justify the ungodly complete perversion. So in terms of them saying in their article of faith

47:08

We believe the Bible insofar that it's translated correctly what they really turns out to mean is we believe the

47:14

Bible insofar that it agrees with us Yeah, and they don't have any they don't provide any evidence in terms of this has been corrupted

47:22

Here's where I can demonstrate that which is what was significant I don't know if you had a chance to hear this but last week on the dividing line.

47:29

I mentioned a Mormon Scholar at BYU that had just gotten his PhD in textual critical studies

47:36

In an area that's relevant to the work that I'm doing PhD studies in and when

47:42

I Brought that out and mentioned this guy's teaching at BYU and he's dealing with this stuff in New Testament textual criticism

47:50

He got in touch with me within like 12 hours. Oh, really? Through Strava through the exercise workout thing.

47:58

They said hey if you ever ever up here, let's go ride together Oh, wow, so that's awesome. It's amazing that the you know

48:05

Dividing line is being listened to that closely. Oh, yeah. Yeah And an interesting that somebody from a

48:12

Mormon perspective would be an interested in textual criticism Because now what does that mean about the Book of Mormon?

48:18

That's the whole thing. I brought it's so interesting. Wow. I'd like to hear that. I'd like to hear that they asked they asked

48:25

About blood atonement Okay, there was a question about blood atonement And of course their doctrine of blood atonement is very very different from the biblical doctrine of blood atonement

48:35

And normally when you talk about the LDS doctrine of blood atonement, you're talking about the idea

48:41

As taught by Brigham Young and still believed by so many in the Mormon Church today But there are certain grievous sins that you can commit the blood of Christ not atone for them

48:48

And you can go back to the the famous story of the Mormon bomber and why he chose to be executed by firing squad right because only the state of Utah continues to have the firing squad as a legal method of Execution because you believe and Most of his family believed that that was the only way you could be saved right would be by by dying by a fire firing squad

49:11

So right in Mormonism when you talk about doctrines of justification blood atonement, you cannot even begin to assume

49:20

Similarity meaningful similarity to anything within Christian theology because you're dealing you're dealing with the politics polytheistic system, right?

49:27

Now here's one of the other reasons that would need to have this Electronically and that is the fonts are way too small.

49:33

I know they are they are anyone over 50 years of age And plus it's dark out here. It's hard. Okay, so just on that one point.

49:38

I'll just give you a this is like This is a famous Famous quotation on the issue of blood atonement

49:44

Brigham Young Journal of Discourses volume 3 page 247 1856 He says let me suppose a case suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife and put a javelin

49:56

Through both I guess people are carrying javelins around that day I don't know put a javelin through both of them You would be justified and they would atone for their sins and be received into the kingdom of God I would at once do so in such a case and under such circumstances

50:09

I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart and I would do it with Clean hands because the idea is there are some sins so grievous that the blood of Christ could not atone for they had to shed

50:22

Their own blood for it. So that's as an example of blood atonement. This is by the way now that I pulled it out this is

50:29

This is where to say that my favorite tool out here besides that's a new version much newer than one

50:34

I had Yeah. Oh, yeah, you had the the brown. Yeah brown cover Yeah, Peyton Harris asked is

50:40

Mormonism moving a more liberal direction to be more appealing to people Well, that was part of I think

50:45

Hinkley's idea What's that yeah good

50:51

I Think that was what what Hinkley? Wanted to do but I think that now it's become more systemic in that I think there is a liberalizing of the leadership itself and that's causing serious problems and Then there was how would you defend the doctrine the

51:10

Trinity were Mormon? Well, you have to start you have to start with the fact. There's only one true God and one God Yeah, once you once you have one one

51:17

God then you can demonstrate That the name Jehovah is used the father of the Son of the Spirit even though Mormonism has some confusing views on on that particular

51:26

Yeah perspective as well, but you've got it. The only place you can start is with monotheism.

51:31

There's there's no other One God one God none before none after and then

51:38

Demonstration of the father is called God the Son is called God the Holy Spirit is called God So it really has to start there.

51:44

Yeah one one God What about a family member is dating relationship with the Mormon elder and the response was what does it matter?

51:51

He's a moral person and what scripture and how do you lovingly respond? Well they're there you you obviously are talking about the issue of The scriptures don't talk about simply a moral person.

52:03

There were moral pagans You have an individual here who is fundamentally opposed the foundational

52:10

Christian confession, there is only one true God and You're not going to be able to build a meaningful foundation at that point

52:18

Of course people today normally don't think about dating and courting as leading to a meaningful relationship in the first place

52:24

Right doesn't really doesn't matter. I guess and that will cause significant conflicts when

52:31

When you get out of the beginning phase of a relationship and you start having kids and hey, look Jeff Durbin's watching

52:37

That guy is weird. That is really strange. Lalo's watching. Hey Lalo Let's see here

52:43

Let's see. It looks like I can't pull it my I got terrible service right now. Well, it's weird cuz mine's working

52:49

Yours is working. I don't know what it is. It's the beard. It is the beard. It's the beard. Yeah Just got his freedom today.

52:55

It was amazing. Hey right on good. It is amazing. That's an awesome book

53:00

Ah, here's a good one. Do Mormons believe there was an original? I was yeah, I saw that one. Yeah No There is an unlimited number of gods if you can go back to a first God then he has obviously the

53:15

The God that should be worshipped. So so logically if you have an increasing number of gods today

53:20

You go back in time far enough you can get to a first God. Yeah, so that's why At least old -time

53:28

Mormons would say there's an unlimited number of deities So you don't have that conundrum of going back to a single first God I know a lot of Mormons.

53:37

They are just really they're not really sure what to do with that I'm ready to think about it really is it really is a mess.

53:43

Yeah, it is. No choice about it Who is the guy was it was an apostle I think was an apostle said that there's more gods than there is matter

53:53

There are more gods than there is matter in those worlds I think the problem with that one is I I'm pretty certain

53:58

I've taught my head. It's been a long time I think that was Orson Pratt. Okay, and you know that Orson Pratt Was Orson Pratt, right?

54:06

Right very Orson Pratt ish, right? So it's become a verb Well on the weird side

54:14

So, but hey, those are good questions. Yeah, and So I thought we just respond to a couple a couple of those.

54:21

Yeah We've been yammering. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you guys for watching So just a couple last points to make

54:28

Does your does a omen still have? Do you still have I have all of it myself, but you waving at my son and yeah,

54:34

I saw that Josh is here Do you still have axe? Can we still have access to like you had all kinds old?

54:41

I mean mp3 is teaching I mean everything's like like you put everything you know, it's on sermon audio.

54:46

Okay, so my stuff is on sermon audio Okay, it's much easier than when I was doing it. So back and the day I had to get stuff and download

54:53

Well, obviously on YouTube you can go to the Mormonism section of the of the Alpha Omega ministries thing and get the debates

55:00

We've done up in Salt Lake City and stuff like that. And then the teaching stuff would be on certain audio

55:06

Okay sermon audio just under a omen or okay alpha Omega so get that content definitely would encourage you guys to get letters

55:13

To Mormon elder is all that stand is the Mormon my brother brother. Oh, that's right. Yeah, and is the Mormon my brother

55:20

Where's the best place to get it should get it from a omen or should just know they're available on Amazon Okay, we actually the only ones we have are the ones

55:26

I give away to people Okay, so Amazon go get those books really helpful resources and I think one of my favorite things so like for what was that book?

55:35

And in when it first gave us Ankerberg and Weldon and it was beyond the mask of Mormonism That thing was just chocked full of so much information.

55:43

You ever see it. Did you ever read it? It was just so full of like historic stuff so it was it was like helpful and it was like but you can just sort of like just there's like pounds and pounds and pounds of paper and Text that eventually you just sort of get worn out of all this information of historic stuff

55:58

What I love about letters to a Mormon elder is that it's conversational And that was my favorite thing about it was that it wasn't just how to do it.

56:06

Yes Yeah, so that that comes from all of dr White's experience out here talking to Mormons So if you want to learn how it's like to converse with a

56:14

Mormon and in particular dr White does help you to sort of hear the the common

56:21

Responses that you will get from a Mormon a believing Mormon. Yeah believing Mormon I'm not sure what

56:27

I would do with it today given Maybe that needs to be done something all new in terms of oh, yeah, you you've got lots of great ideas.

56:36

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah so Letters to a Mormon elder it's conversational.

56:43

I hope you understand how the conversations often go We I mean obviously Apologies studios and YouTube you're gonna get hours and hours and hours of actual conversation taking place out here on this sidewalk

56:54

I think it'll really bless you guys. So I think overall let me just encourage you with some last Some last words here on that a few minutes ago.

57:02

Did I say that already? Yeah, you did. You're a preacher I am a preacher and now in closing. Okay, we got 15. Yeah.

57:08

Okay, really last thing this because they're ending here anyways It's frustrating in terms of like Christians that are willing to digest a lot of information and just study and study and study and Want to get to you know, every theological subject cross the

57:24

T's dot the I's I think a lot of that doesn't mean so much if a it's not changing my life my walk with Jesus and B if I'm not actually like taking that and putting legs on it into the world to reach people with like what's it worth?

57:40

So I would I I think almost dr. White. I think like we have enough books on Mormonism Now we need people to reach

57:46

Mormons like we've got enough great information on Mormonism We don't really need any more books on Mormonism We just need people that are willing to actually sacrifice for them and talk to them and any more

57:56

So much of what we used to share in those books on Mormonism is now confirmed by the publications of the

58:02

LDS Church itself Yeah, so that that whole issue has been laid aside I mean, yeah, you want to talk about Joseph Smith Searstone?

58:08

You can go show them pictures of Joseph Smith Searstone Yeah the church now Yeah They just need people that will care enough about them to be concerned that they're gonna they're gonna burn out on Mormonism when they find out what it what its history really is and and what the issues really are

58:22

But they're not going to know that there is a true gospel that can then be worth their their commitment