WWUTT 2555 Q&A As In the Days of Noah, Christians in Bad Marriages, The Hellgate Debate

Noah was called a herald of righteousness. What does that mean? Does God call people to bad marriages as a way to sanctify them?

And what about this hell debate, annihilationism or eternal conscious torment when we understand the text?

This is When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible commentary in the word of God that we may be conformed to the image of Christ.

Tell your friends about our ministry at www .wutt .com. Here once again is

Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. Psalm 40 verses four and five. How blessed is the man who has made

Yahweh his trust and has not turned to the proud nor to those who stray into falsehood.

Many, oh Yahweh my God, are the wondrous deeds you have done and your thoughts toward us.

There is none to compare with you. I would declare and speak of them, but they are too numerous to recount.

How good our God is toward us. Amen. And may we commit ourselves all of our ways to the

Lord. In fact, the way that this Psalm begins, I skipped the first three verses, but verse three, he put a new song in my mouth, a song of praise to our

God. So may our lips not be inclined to speaking evil things or wicked things, especially against our brothers and sisters in Christ.

But we would have mouths that are encouraging of one another because we use our mouths to praise and glorify the

God who has done so much for us in Christ Jesus. Amen. Folks, this is Gabe and Becky.

Hello. We love being with you on the Friday edition of the broadcast because we take questions from the listeners.

And you can send those questions to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com or send us a voicemail going to www .utt

.com and click on that voicemail tab. We hope that everybody survived the weather. Yes, and safely.

Yep. We didn't have any problem with it here in Arizona. It's been 72 and sunny this entire winter weather week.

200 plus million Americans affected by this winter weather. Yeah, it even got down below freezing.

It was a lot. Yeah. It even got down below freezing in Northern Florida. Wow. Did they have the dropping lizards again?

Oh, didn't they fall out of trees or something, right? I don't know. I'm not sure. They get so cold and kind of, you know how like, because they're reptiles, so they would.

They are? Huh? But because they're affected by the heat and cold so much that they just can't move anymore.

Yeah, they're cold blooded. Yes, cold blooded. Yeah. They can't move anymore and so they just drop. So I saw a map of Louisiana and in New Orleans, it was like, sorry,

Nolans. Nolans. Yes. It was over 70, I think. And in Baton Rouge, it was like 24.

Whoa. So the different, that's how that cold front, that's how that cold front moved through the country.

It was like, if you're on this side of it, nice and balmy. Oh my goodness. If you're on that side of it, you're miserable.

Cold ice, snow. Yes. Just swept the country. Some people probably even without power, as I'm talking here.

Probably, yeah. Even in the Nashville area, I understand like a bunch of Nashville was knocked out. So praying for everybody.

Hope you're surviving the cold. You can always come and join us out here in AZ. Definitely. Our church is kind of tight, but we'll find a spot for you.

Definitely. Be praying for us that we're able to find a good place, a bigger location than what we have now because we're maxed out on space.

Yes. Including the parking lot. Yep. We hit records for January longest or most numbers we've ever had in one month.

Praise the Lord. In the month of January. We praise God for it, but we are gonna need a bigger space. Yes. So your prayers would be appreciated in that regard.

It's a project I've been working on for almost two years. Yep. But it's all in the

Lord's timing. Yes, absolutely. It's just, we're gonna rejoice all the more when we get there because. Oh, amen.

Just like heaven. We're gonna rejoice all the more when we get there. Yes. It's like playing the opposite of, if you build it, they will come.

Yeah, right. We're not building and they're still coming. Yes. But it's wonderful. It is.

Let's get to a voicemail here. This is from our friend Scotty on the Pacific Northwest. Now he, this has some information in it that was meant to be personal.

So I'm clipping that part out. But then some other parts are, I think relevant to all the listeners because of something

I missed this week. Oh, no. So here we go. Hello there, Pastor Gabe. Hello, Becky. This is your brother in Christ, Scott, from the great

Northwest where it's 34 degrees and it's raining outside. We got some snow up in the mountains right now.

And anyway, also thank you, Pastor Gabe. Jeremiah, Jeremy, the book of Jeremiah.

Well, last week you didn't put it in. Hopefully you'll get it in this week. You guys all have be blessed and encouraged and let's all go serve our

King. And also remember our brother, Ben Price, in Melbourne, Australia, it was 104 degrees yesterday.

Bye bye. Ooh, 104 in Australia. Well, you know, it's summertime there.

It is. So Southern Hemisphere, they got the summer going on. Thank you for that, brother Scott.

Yes, I did miss Jeremiah last week. That was not intentional. I actually thought I had uploaded it.

Oh, no. So I missed that. The episode was done, just didn't have it put in there. So, or put in right?

I could have uploaded the media, the data, got the wrong date on it.

No, because it'll tell me that. It'll still show up in my upload log.

Right. But I just have the - So maybe something happened and it just didn't go. Maybe I didn't hit save after I uploaded it or something.

I don't know. Anyway, I'll get that in there. It was just an oversight. Thank you for the heads up.

Thanks for the heads up. I got behind this week because there's just too much going on. It was a lot.

I record hear the word of the Lord from home and I record the podcast from the office and I had so much going on this week.

I didn't even get anything done at the office. So had a test I had to give to my students.

Yep. And I subbed twice. Yep, you were substitute teaching. So I had to watch

Bubba during that period of time. So yeah, it's just been busy. Wasn't able to keep on top of it.

Very, very busy. But we'll get it all caught up. It'll be in there for you. Yes. This next question, this comes via email.

This is from Peter. In the face of all the claims about what Jesus said referring to the days of Noah, please clarify.

The world was evil and the people rejected Noah preaching. Was that the meaning or just that as the following passages say people were just getting on with life oblivious of the judgment to come.

The final part is that our present state worldwide is as bad as the time of Noah.

We're only a single family and all that lived was God fearing and faithful. Thank you so much,

Peter. And then he gives the two references, Matthew 24, 37 to 39, and then Luke 17, 26 to 27.

I talked about these a little bit when I was there. It's been a while now. Matthew was three years ago.

Yeah. Pretty close to, well, Matthew 24 wasn't that long ago. But then Luke 17 was last year that I covered that one.

So I've talked about these passages. Matthew 24, of course, is in the context of the Olivet Discourse.

Luke 17 is in a different context. It isn't in the same context in Mark and in Luke as it is necessarily in Matthew.

So in Matthew 24, you have concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven nor the son, but the father only.

For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the son of man. For as in those days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage until the day when

Noah entered the ark. And they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away.

So it will be with the coming of the son of man. Now, again, that's in the context of the

Olivet Discourse. And that's Jesus talking about the judgment that is going to come upon Jerusalem itself.

That's the immediate fulfillment of what Jesus is prophesying there. And then he kind of talks about that a little bit in Luke 17, although what we consider to be the

Olivet Discourse in Luke is not until chapter 21. In Luke 17, he says, the days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the son of man, and you will not see it.

And they will say to you, look there or look here, do not go out or follow them. These are similar words to what

Jesus says in Matthew 24, but a different context. For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky, from one side to the other, so will the son of man be in his day.

But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the son of man.

They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage until the day when Noah entered the ark and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building.

But on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all.

So will it be on the day when the son of man is revealed. Now this one in Luke 17 appears to be more applicable to whatever day it is that Christ returns.

Whereas Matthew 24 is clearly in the context of the prophecy that he's given the disciples concerning the destruction of Jerusalem, which would happen in the year 70.

Yeah. So the destruction of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple. Going on here in Luke 17, on that day, let the one who is on the housetop with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away.

And likewise, let the one who was in the field, not turn back. Remember Lot's wife, whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.

And as I've made the argument before, even regarding the Olivet Discourse, it's important for us to recognize that what

Jesus is talking about there on the Mount of Olives in Matthew 24, he is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem in the temple.

That is the question that the disciples ask him. But I've always taught this as this, this is the immediate fulfillment, but you can still see this as a picture of what is going to happen later.

Right. So this incredible event, and this was a remarkable prophecy and a remarkable event that happens in AD 70, the destruction of the temple.

No Jew thought that the temple would ever be destroyed. Right. Herod's temple was a massive structure.

It was massive. And the Romans came in, destroyed it, and threw all of the blocks down.

Every stone that stood there at the temple Mount was thrown down, just as Jesus prophesied it would happen.

And I remember when in college, when I was kind of doing a little bit of apologetics work, I was really challenging myself on, okay, how much of the

Bible do I really believe is inerrant? Like I'd already settled in my mind, God is real,

Christ is my savior. Took care of those questions when I was a teenager. Yeah. You know, asking myself, do

I believe what I believe because it's true or do I believe it because my parents believe it?

Right. And so really - That's fair. Really did that exploration and came to find, no, I believe

Jesus Christ is real, that he died and rose again. But then challenging myself on other doctrines.

How about the doctrine of inerrancy? My dad had always raised me on inerrancy. This word's true, you do whatever it says.

Yep. And whatever anybody else says, it's always gonna be subject to this word.

I was raised to believe that, but I'm still asking myself, is that really true? Yeah. How much of this word do

I believe is true? And I remember it being in the Olivet Discourse that I was studying.

And I was reading from other scholars who were dating the book of Matthew and giving their interpretations of what

Jesus was talking about in Matthew 24 and 25. And something that I noticed, even among liberal scholars, that the vast consensus was that the book of Matthew was written before AD 70.

It was written before 70. Okay. So even the most liberal people who wanna say that, oh, it wasn't written in the lifetime of Jesus, it was decades later.

Even if they're putting it decades after Jesus, they were still putting it before 70. And so even among liberals who did not believe that the word of God is inerrant, you're dating this book before what

Jesus is clearly prophesying here happens. So it doesn't matter whether Jesus actually said it or Matthew was writing it.

This is still an incredible prophecy that actually happened exactly the way that it's described here.

I remember that being mind -blowing to me. And I was reading that going, okay, this is true. Like, this is all true.

You know, that was... And it happened at the... That was the pinnacle moment. Yeah, it was. Right. And it was the

Olivet Discourse. I know part of that study was eschatology -wise, because like all my friends were dispensational and they all referenced

Matthew 24. And I was going, I just don't think that that's what this is about. And so, you know, all of that study was kind of coming at the same time.

Okay. But anyway, yeah, with regarding this prophecy, there's just incredible statement that Jesus makes.

Luke 17 obviously uses the same language and the same examples even, because you have, as it was in the days of Noah, you also have that wonderful statement that's hugely important.

And I've talked about this before in Luke 17, 32, remember Lot's wife. She looked back at Sodom.

She longed for Sodom. Yeah. As destruction was coming upon it. Now, if this pertains to Jerusalem, there were gonna be a lot of Jews fleeing

Jerusalem, looking back at it, longing for that. But the old covenant was over.

Yeah. The new covenant had come, as said in the book of Hebrews, that this stuff was passing away.

Now we have this new covenant in Christ. Don't long for the old anymore. Yeah. So even if it came to like looking back at Jerusalem, don't long for what was, we have something better now in Christ.

But as it pertains to any other kind of judgment, even if you're talking about the final judgment, don't be as Lot's wife.

Don't look back at the world. Yeah. Don't long for the world that's coming to destruction. Well, I mean, like everybody makes fun of the

Israelites that were escaping from, oh goodness, during Moses' time, they were escaping.

Yeah, Egypt. Thank you. It's just not coming to me. It's one of those days.

Anyway. We've talked about before your difficulty with names. Oh my goodness. So even, yeah. That was like a huge struggle too.

So anyway, I was doing good with Moses, okay. And so with them,

I wanna go back to Egypt. Right. At least we were cared for. And everybody who reads that story is like, really?

Yeah, right. We're all acting like, yeah. Are you serious? Yep. And we're looking at them like they're just, like who would do that?

You so quickly forgot your taskmasters and the oppression that you were under and calling out to God, and now you wanna go back there.

Right, right. So suddenly. And so it's kind of the same thing of, don't long for that, don't be like them.

Yeah. I mean, you make fun of them, so don't be like them. I know, right, yeah. Don't put yourself in the same position.

Don't be like the Israelites longing for Egypt. Yes. I love that song from Keith Green. So you wanna go back to Egypt.

That was a great song. Yes. So regarding these days, let me come back to Peter's question again.

So was the meaning here that Noah was preaching and the world was evil and they just did not listen to him preaching.

So in 2 Peter 2, and it's only there in 2 Peter 2, and here you go, Peter. So Peter, 2

Peter 2. That's the only place where it mentions where Noah was a herald of righteousness.

And that phrase is debated. Herald of righteousness. So what does that mean? Does that mean he was a gospel preacher?

You know, does that mean he was preaching, destruction was coming, and so repent because God is gonna destroy the world in however many days.

They're mocking him as he's building this ark and his family and everything. And yet he's testifying to the destruction that's coming because of mankind's wickedness.

So is that what that means? Or does it just mean that because he was a righteous man and the rest of the world was wicked that Noah was therefore proclaiming righteousness just in his actions or by his deeds?

I think either one can apply. Like there's no explicit mention of Noah preaching to his generation and telling them to repent.

Right, that's what I was thinking. I was trying to think back to the story. But to herald is to proclaim.

Right. That is to be a proclamation. So you could take that phrase to mean that. Like he is telling his generation to repent.

It is an in Genesis. It doesn't say that Noah's out there all the time. He's trying to build this ark, everybody's harassing him, and he's saying, no, you need to repent.

It doesn't say that in Genesis. I didn't think so. Yeah. So was that the way that it was?

I think either way, it doesn't matter. He's still a testimony to righteousness that the people ignored.

No matter how you understand that, that's the truth about Noah. He was a righteous man.

God showed his favor and his mercy upon Noah. He was gonna be the deliverance of mankind through Noah and his wife and his sons and their wives.

Mankind would be preserved. Yes. But the rest were going to be wiped out in the flood, which of course happened.

And then after the flood, Noah though being a righteous man and having these three sons, yet sin was still there.

Oh yeah. Came with him. Because it comes from within the heart of man, all who are descended from Adam.

It's not something outside that infects us, but it comes from within. So again, back to the question, or is it just about getting on with life oblivious to the judgment to come?

It could be either one. So people ignoring preaching or ignoring the obvious message of righteousness that they refuse to listen to, they refuse to repent, they continue in their wickedness so that God brings judgment upon them.

And they also act just oblivious to the judgment that is to come. Yeah. You look around the world and that's exactly what you see.

It's not happening to me right now. Right. So I can ignore it. And Peter, as you go on in Peter, so that's second

Peter two, where you have the example of Noah, you even have the example of Lot also in second Peter.

You get to chapter three, where Peter says scoffers are gonna come in the last days.

And they're gonna scoff and say, where is the sign of his coming? Because everything's just been continuing on as it always has.

There's no sign of his coming. And Peter says, yeah, the heavens are being stored up with fire. God is gonna pour out his wrath and judgment on the world.

So the warning is given there, there will come scoffers just as it was in Noah's day. And Peter even makes that comparison to it being

Noah's day. The world that previously existed was deluged with water and perished, but now the heavens are being stored up with fire.

So previously God's judgment upon the world was through the flood. And this next judgment, which was pictured at Sodom and Gomorrah, but will come upon the whole world, just like the judgment that comes upon Jerusalem that Jesus is prophesying about is a picture of a bigger judgment that's coming later.

So Sodom and Gomorrah was the same way. Peter references that, Jude references that.

So God's judgment will be poured out upon all of mankind, all of the wicked, and only those who are in Christ Jesus will be saved.

So we would be like Noah in these days, proclaiming the gospel. There's many that are not going to listen to it, but there's many who will.

Yes. And that's the reason why we have to be proclaiming the gospel. Definitely. So yeah, we know that the

Lord has said, you're gonna be hated. They hated me, they're gonna hate you. They're not gonna listen to the word. As said in 2

Thessalonians 2, God sends them a strong delusion so that they may believe what is false and devote themselves to wickedness, storing up judgment for themselves.

Yeah. So that's going to happen with the wicked. We should not be surprised at that, but it doesn't mean the word of God has failed.

And we continue to preach the gospel, knowing that God in his timing and in his work will turn people from their sin to himself.

Amen. And we just need to be faithful to continue to proclaim it. So I hope that was helpful for you,

Peter. And don't miss 2 Peter chapters two and three, your namesake, read those too.

This next one was not sent to me anonymously, but because this question's kind of sensitive,

I'm gonna keep it anonymous just in case. So do you believe that God calls people to bad marriages as a way to mature believers, even if they are

Christian? I remember hearing a biblical counselor talk about this idea, and it kind of stuck with me.

Thoughts? So let me answer this way, first of all. I don't think

God is encouraging anybody to get into a bad marriage. Fair. So your marriage is supposed to be a picture of the way that Christ loves his church.

A husband loves his wife, a wife submits to her husband. So your ideal marriage should look like that.

Yes. A husband loving his wife as Christ loves the church, a wife submitting to her husband the way that the church submits to Christ is a picture of the way the church submits to Christ.

So even though you have unmarrieds in your congregation, they're still supposed to look at the marrieds as a picture of,

I need to be in submission to Christ. So the wife is the example of being in submission to Christ.

The husband is the example of Christ loving his church. And that's marriage. That's why

God gave us marriage. Because ultimately the big fulfillment of this is the church as the bride of Christ being united with him forever for all eternity.

Right. And this is the reason why Jesus says to the Sadducees that in heaven there will not be marriage or being given in marriage.

Because the marriage in heaven is the church with the groom. Right. With Christ.

So marriage is supposed to be a picture of that. I don't think God is really calling anybody into miserable marriages.

No. Will you enter into a miserable marriage? Possibly. That may be because of your own foolishness.

It could also be, God forbid, but it could be your spouse fooled you.

Yeah. Maybe deceived you. It could be because over the course of your marriage, something happens that just changes the landscape, changes the route that you were on, the direction you were going in.

You can get to a point in your marriage where you might feel like, I don't know who this person is that I married.

Sometimes marriage can be a surprise in that way. Yeah. This is not autobiographical, by the way, for me.

Like I'm not speaking from my own experience in this. You and I have been blessed with a wonderful marriage.

Definitely. And the Lord is maturing and growing us, sanctifying us. It hasn't always been easy.

We've had difficulties. I mean, there's been personal difficulties that I've been through where Becky was a rock.

I don't know if I've extended that same thing to you. Yes. I'm sure there has been, but nothing coming to mind immediately.

So there are still difficult things that we go through and there's difficult things that we've had to work out with each other, but it's always been godly, founded upon Christ.

Neither one of us have ever taken our eyes off Christ. Right. We've always been built on that foundation and this has been a remarkable blessing because I was in bad relationships before this.

Me too. And it's not like it was all her fault. I was bad too. I'm not blaming the girlfriends or anything like that.

I was also not a good person. And so when Becky and I got together, there were things we talked about.

We don't want to repeat this. Right. So what do we have to do to prevent it? Got lots of good premarital counseling.

Oh yes. But of course it was the grace of God, most of all, that brought us into this precious marriage that we have.

But in the journey of this, we've had the opportunity to counsel many, many couples.

So we've seen lots of difficulties in lots of marriages along the way.

And again, things can happen. An illness can come into the marriage that just totally changes the dynamic. Definitely.

And now the two of you have to work through that and that can create tension and drama and difficulty and other things.

I don't think God calls you to a bad marriage necessarily. He could call you to a difficult marriage because that's going to be the majority of marriages.

Yes, it's true. And in a way to mature believers, absolutely. Every marriage is sanctifying.

Amen. Everyone, every marriage for every Christian is sanctifying. Yes. My wife helps to sanctify me.

My kids help to sanctify me. There are things that I learn about myself through my family that I never noticed when

I was by myself. Yeah, fair. So. That's so true. Marriage is sanctifying in that way.

And again, being a picture of the way that Christ loves his church, we have that same fellowship within the church. So even somebody who is not married in the church has this relationship, this fellowship with other believers and their fellow

Christians are helping to sanctify them as well. Helping us in recognizing our weak areas, our sins, what we need to repent of, what we need to be conformed to Christ in, things like this.

Yes. As Tim Challies has said, and I've quoted this many times, but sanctification is a community project.

Yes. You have to have each other in working through this sanctifying process.

The point that I've drawn out many times regarding the fruit of the spirit, what do you have to have in order to achieve the fruit of the spirit as it's listed, those nine fruits, or that's all part of one fruit that's mentioned in Galatians 5.

What do you need to do the fruit of the spirit? The Holy Spirit. You need the Holy Spirit first of all.

Yes. Because it's the fruit of the spirit. Right. You can't do it without the spirit. Right. But you also need - That's an essential point.

That's essential. But you also need, what else? You need the Holy Spirit, but you need -

Christ. No, others. There you go. That's it. You have others. You need other people.

Because if the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, how do you love without other people? Yeah. How do you have patience and kindness?

You just need to love yourself. Right. Oh my goodness. You can't just be a kind person just sitting there not doing anything.

Right. You actually have to show kindness. And patience. And patience with other people.

And gentleness. And those two things side by side, that's in 1 Corinthians 13, what is it?

Verse four. Love is patient. Love is - Those two things right there. Yes.

So you have to have other people in order to accomplish, in order to do the fruit of the spirit.

So we're being sanctified together. A difficult marriage can help to do that, but good marriages help to do that as well.

It's not like a good marriage is more, or a bad marriage is more sanctifying than a good marriage, or even vice versa.

Yeah. But yeah, marriage and family, these things definitely mature believers, even if we are

Christian. Now, if you're in a bad marriage, there's still sanctification that happens there, though it just might be on a different level.

You could be married to an unbeliever, but marriage to that unbeliever can still also be sanctifying.

Though that person may not be encouraging you in the Lord, there's still a reliance that you have on Christ through this difficult relationship, a relationship with an unbeliever that, what did

I say? That's causing you to rely on Christ? Did I say that? I do feel like I'm repeating myself on that. So the difficulty of that relationship with that unbeliever is causing you to rely all the more on Christ.

Yeah. You're praying even more fervently, probably, for your unbelieving spouse than you would be otherwise.

So listen to this instruction that Peter gives in 1 Peter 3, one through seven.

And by the way, this is the passage I use for any couple that I counsel where one is a believer and the other is not.

When I counsel the believer, whether it's the wife or the husband, I'll come back to this passage in 1

Peter 3. Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be one without a word by the conduct of their wives when they see respectful and pure conduct.

Now note there that Peter says they don't obey the word. He doesn't necessarily say they're unbelievers, but they don't obey the word.

So you may even have a spouse who proclaims to be a Christian but just does not act like it. Yeah, that's true.

Verse three, do not let your adorning be external, the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry or the clothing you wear, but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart.

With the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.

For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by submitting to their own husbands as Sarah obeyed

Abraham, calling him Lord. And you are her children if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

Now that's all the wives, but that doesn't mean the husbands gets off the hook. Right. Verse seven, likewise husbands live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel since they are heirs with you of the grace of life so that your prayers may not be hindered.

Where there's strife in your marriage, your prayers are hindered. Yes. Now that doesn't mean that if one spouse is acting disobediently and the other spouse is obedient, does that mean that the obedient spouse isn't having their prayers answered because there's strife between them?

No, because the strife is not coming from the believing spouse if they are in submission to Christ and being

Christ -like toward their unbelieving spouse. Right. So, but if there is unresolved tension, unresolved issues that exist within a couple, it is affecting your relationship with God.

And so submit to your husband and wife, love your wife, husband, and do these things in an understanding way of each other so that your prayers may not be hindered.

Amen. Anything else to add to that? If it's like a really, really bad marriage,

I fall back on the, you know, God has meant it for good in his glory.

Yeah. What was that verse? Well, Romans 8, 28, you might be combining like Genesis 50, 20 with Romans 8, 28.

Probably, it sounds about right. Right. So God works all things together for good. Yes.

For those who love God and are called according to his purpose. Yes. So even your bad marriage, God is doing something to work it for your good.

Right, yeah, totally. And you might not see it, you might not understand it, you might not even want it, but it will come back around to be good and for his glory.

Yeah, amen. So. Continue to trust the Lord. Yes, amen. I've seen marriages go really bad where one spouse never becomes a believer, but don't let those things discourage you from praying because I've also seen the other way.

Yes. Where the spouse does become a believer. Prayed and prayed and prayed for years and years. Yes. I've had the privilege of.

It's just the most beautiful thing. Yes, I've had the privilege of baptizing those men. Yes. When they finally came around and became believers.

All right, next question. This one's a Noah. So we've talked about Noah and now we have an email from Noah.

Awesome. Pastor Gabe, have you had the chance to watch the Hellgate debate on Kirk Cameron's channel?

I know that it just came out, but something doesn't sit well with me about it. I was only familiar with a couple of the guys on the panel.

I felt like I had more questions than answers when all of that was over. And some of the more controversial questions never came up.

Like if annihilationism is true, aren't we just giving the atheist what he wants?

I believe that you said that recently. Doesn't annihilationism believe that there is conscious torment for a while, but then eventually the person is annihilated?

And what's the difference between hell and Sheol and Hades and the Lake of Fire and the place where the rich man went in Luke 16?

I think they hardly even mentioned Luke 16, whether it was a parable or Jesus was talking about something that really happened.

Anyway, I don't wanna say it was a useless round table chat, but it sure felt like it.

If you've seen it, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Well, first of all, before answering that question,

I watched two chats on YouTube this week. One of them was on a podcast called

Room for Nuance. Let me bring that up. I can't remember the name of the guy that does Room for Nuance, but he, now that I've clicked on it, it's gonna start playing.

Let me stop it. All right, there we go. It doesn't have his name on it. Why do they do that?

Anyway, so the guy who started Room for Nuance, which again escapes me, his name's not, so dude, it's your fault for not putting your name on your page.

He just recently interviewed Kyle Clonch of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and they talked about eternal functional subordination, which is a false doctrine of the

Trinity. Okay. So if you've heard of EFS or ERAS or ESS, there are different abbreviations that are used for eternal functional subordination.

Okay. Watch that interview. That is a fantastic interview, tremendous. One of the best that I've ever seen explaining eternal functional subordination and the problems with it, but then also giving really great solid

Trinitarian doctrine over the course of that conversation anyway. Oh, that's awesome. We'll put a link to that conversation in the show notes of this episode.

So I'd highly recommend that conversation. Between the two chats on YouTube that I watched this week, that was by far the better one.

It's also half as long. Oh, wow. So enjoy that one. The other one was the

Hellgate conversation on Kirk Cameron's channel that also included four other speakers.

I'm not gonna remember them off the top of my head on the side of eternal conscious torment.

So understanding that hell is eternal punishment was Gavin Ortlin. He was the one guy, and I can't remember the name of the other guy, the older fellow that was across from him.

And then on the annihilation side. So annihilationism, remember, is that there's not eternal conscious torment.

The person is just annihilated. They just cease to exist. Okay, so, and we've talked about this in the past, that this is a heterodox view.

Right. It's not traditional, it's not orthodoxy going back for 2000 years of church history, and it's gaining popularity recently, especially when at the end of the year,

Kirk Cameron comes out is like, no, I think I'm an annihilationist now. Yeah, why? And he has this round table discussion.

Well, their arguments are gonna be that the Bible convinced me of this. Well, of course they do.

But what you always hear in those - I mean, you say that, not the Bible says that, but - Yeah, they're not gonna say the

Bible doesn't say this, and I believe it anyway. Right. They're going to say that they're convinced by scripture. And I'm gonna grant them that.

I'm not saying that the Bible didn't convince them. They may be telling the truth when they say,

I went through scripture and the scripture convinced me of this. Okay. Fine. But you always hear in their answer.

I'm gonna use the word always, because I've never not heard an occasion of this. You always hear in their answer that I just don't think

God would allow somebody to be tortured for eternity. Yeah. So there's always that,

I feel like, response within annihilationism. You may be convinced by scripture, that's fine.

But there is that part of a person that I just don't want to accept this to be the case.

And a lot of times, they did not do this in this round table discussion. They even discussed this in the discussion.

But a lot of times an annihilationist is going to just downright slander the eternal conscious torment person and say, you believe in a

God that would do something as monstrous as torture a person for all eternity.

Like really accusing, really being accusing of the person that believes in eternal punishment.

So you therefore must be a terrible person. Yeah, right. Like God is not a monster and you just think of him as a monster.

And that is by and large the annihilationism view. Even though these men did not talk about that in this round table discussion, that is largely the way the annihilationists or even the universalists will regard eternal punishment.

They're always putting you down for like, what a horrible God you believe in. Which is a scary thing to say, because even as the annihilationists acknowledged in that round table discussion, the language very clearly tips in favor of eternal punishment.

Even the annihilationists acknowledge that. Now, why Noah did you feel a little bit uncomfortable with this debate?

I'm gonna give a theory here. Okay. This is speculation. I don't know what's in your heart, but I'm just speculating here as to why you thought something was a little bit off.

Because ultimately the reason for this discussion was not really to educate people on what hell really is.

Because there were a lot of things that were left out, just like you pointed out. What's the difference between Hades?

Why aren't we defining terms here? Yeah. Why does Luke 16? That seems to be something everybody skips over in their debate.

Yeah. Defining terms. Defining terms. That should be step one. Yes. When I did debate in college, that was one of my chief arguments.

Yes. If I ever had to be on the opposition side, because it was the government's job to define terms.

And if I was ever on the opposition, I would bring that up constantly. Government has not defined their terms.

Yeah. I don't even know how we debate the value of this when the government has not even given us clear definitions of what we're arguing about.

Right. I constantly brought that up. Of course you did. Yes. So yeah, in this debate, terms were not, it was like hell was a given.

Like, okay, we're understanding hell as being judgment. That's what we are acknowledging hell to be.

It is God's final judgment on the unbelievers. Yes. But then what does hell entail?

Is it they are annihilated and they just cease to exist? They don't exist anymore? Or is it punishment that goes on forever and ever as God's wrath is poured out on them?

Or they're burning in fire, or Satan and the demons are jumping up and down on them? You know, whatever picture of hell that you might have, what are we talking about when we discuss hell?

So they just kind of took it as, it's just final judgment. And no other terms in scripture were really defined.

At least I don't remember that. I watched it kind of in three different intervals because it was a two and a half hour conversation.

So I caught like, you know, 45 minutes here, 45 minutes there, and then knocked out the other hour.

Yeah. And I think even the last half hour I listened to on, I just sped it up.

I was like, okay, let's get through this. The first half hour of this conversation was nothing but introduction.

It was like talking about each respective person, who they were, what their ministries were.

And then it was how I got to the belief that I have regarding hell. Then they shared their testimony about that.

So even the annihilationist guys, all of the annihilationist guys, Kirk Cameron, Dan Patterson, Chris Date, those three all previously had believed in eternal conscious torment.

And so now they believed in annihilationism. So you had at that table, five people who at least at some point had believed what the

Bible does say in the language in which it says it. Right. About God's judgment upon the wicked, the final judgment upon the wicked.

Anyway, I never did finish my theory here regarding Noah. No. So my speculation.

Yes, go for it. This is why I think that was so unsettling to you and it didn't really feel like it was as useful as you were hoping it was going to be.

Because this discussion was not really a discussion about hell. The whole purpose of this conversation was to give annihilationists a seat at the table.

That's the reason for it. You did not have any real debate in that conversation.

And even, so somebody else I caught, pointed this out on X, David Morrill, I think it was.

So Kirk Cameron teased this round table discussion by saying, this is the debate that no one wants to have.

Okay. But then he didn't have it. So nobody. Nobody. Wants to have it.

Even Cameron does not want to have this debate. That's funny. He flew these guys in, so acknowledge like he paid for their airfare and put them up so that they could come in and do this round table discussion.

Okay. And it was just a discussion, it was just a friendly chat and again, the purpose of which was really just to give annihilationists, which

Cameron now is. So he now has this view. He talked about it with his son on his podcast and then it blew up and there were people that were calling him heretic.

And there were plenty of other people that were having good faith pushback. They're giving good faith pushback.

I can't talk anymore. To Cameron's views, but he was not listening or he wasn't responding to those views.

It was just like, he was just shutting it all out because of the massive wave of negative comments that were coming in.

Now, as somebody who is very vocal on X, I've done lots of work there.

I've been banned from there. It took the work of a state congressman to get me back on X.

I was banned from Twitter. I got restored to X. But anyway, so the way the algorithm works,

I've seen this plenty of times and even X has not really improved the algorithm, even since Elon took over.

X thrives on negative interaction. Yes. It thrives on it. So like when

I make a post that goes viral, my top comments are all negative. And that's the way that it feeds me the algorithm.

It does not, and there are comments that are in there that because those persons who make those comments have a larger following will get way more likes, but it still doesn't, the number of likes does not move them up in my feed of comments.

And so sometimes somebody might have to tell me, hey, so -and -so left you a comment that was really good.

I think you should respond to that one. Sometimes that's what it takes for me to even notice that and respond to it. So in Cameron's defense, it was probably that he was only seeing the negative.

That's probably true. And maybe he's not as familiar with the algorithm as I am. So he's only seeing these calls like you're a heretic now because you believe in annihilationism.

And as I said, in my year -end countdown, going through the biggest stories of the year, I'm not on the side of calling the annihilationist the, calling them a heretic.

I think they're heterodox, but I wouldn't call them a heretic. Because I think that word heretic is reserved for you're going to hell because you have this view.

And it's not that he's saying God doesn't punish the wicked. I don't even really know the extent of what his annihilationism is, because like you said,

Noah, there were terms in there that just really weren't defined. You still were left with a lot of questions about like, what is the extent of annihilationism?

We never even got to that. So even when a person tells me they're an annihilationist, I want to know, okay, are you like a

Seventh -day Adventist annihilationist? Because they have one view of annihilationism. Are you the kind of person that believes we do go to a place of torment until the final judgment?

And then it's the putting in the lake of fire that's the annihilation? Because I've heard that one too.

Okay. So just like the rich man in Luke 16, you go to a place of torment, but then it's at the great white throne of judgment when death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire.

And finally everything is done. That's where those who had been consigned to torment, even they perish forever.

Okay. And that's the one that if any view was most convincing to me when

I was younger, that was the one that made me go, I like that. I would hope.

Right. Maybe just in my own sensitivity, you know, when I'm thinking about it, because it is a difficult subject.

It is. This is a really, really difficult subject. You're talking about the punishment, the pouring out of God's wrath on the wicked forever.

Yes. Which is what scripture says. It is. And that is a difficult thing for us to grapple with.

I never want to enter into this discussion flippantly or glibly. Right. Like these are serious things.

I don't say what the hell as a curse, because you're taking something that is very serious.

Yes. It is the wrath of God being poured out. And you're taking that and treating it as like nothing.

Right. Like something that I can say, you know, it's, I don't understand why anybody says it's cold as hell out here.

That's just completely contrary, but I've heard that. Yes. But you know, like people will treat hell that way.

They'll use it as a curse. I don't do that even, because it just treats the subject that we should be taking very, very seriously as something that's kind of like out of mind.

Yeah. And we just get flipping about it. So these are serious things to talk about. I understand the position of the annihilationist.

I get it. I get it. I do. But is that our weak flesh talking there? Exactly. Is it because we want that to be true?

Yeah. You know, even on the side of the guys that held the traditional position, they kept making appeals to like C .S.

Lewis. And I'm going, Lewis didn't have even the greatest view of what hell is.

Lewis was the guy that said the gates of hell are locked from the inside. And that's not biblical.

The people who were in hell don't lock the gate. No. They're sent there. They are. They are actually cast into the place of torment that was reserved for the devil and his angels.

And Revelation 14, this did come up. Revelation 14, 11 did come up multiple times in this discussion.

But this one says, the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night.

These worshipers of the beast and its image and whoever received the mark of its name.

It's really, really difficult to get out of that passage and not hear that it's talking about them perishing in that torment forever.

Right. And they have no rest from it. Right. Even the annihilationists had to acknowledge, yes, the language of these passages sounds like eternal conscious torment.

That is what it sounds like. But once again, so the purpose of this became that it's really to give an annihilationist the seat at the table.

Of course, Cameron was gonna tilt it in that direction. Yes. Because he's the annihilationist and he was tired of hearing that he was a heretic.

Right. So I'm gonna create this panel that's just gonna be a friendly discussion. And I have reason to believe that they agreed upon that ahead of the conversation.

There was a point in there where Chris Date, one of the annihilationist guys, which I think I said this before,

I was invited to debate Chris Date last year. And I turned it down because prepping for a debate is just so hard.

It is. It takes a lot of time. You were gone for a long time. When I did that one debate with Layton Flowers.

It was very time consuming. And I was tired of listening to Layton Flowers. I was so done with it.

And that's one of the reasons why I didn't ever do a follow -up. Like, okay, now let's do a follow -up to this debate.

Here's where I felt like I won and all this kind of thing. I was just done. I was like, finally,

I can move on from this. And the same thing would have to be the case with Chris Date.

I know who he is. I know what he teaches. I know what his ministry is about. I know he's the annihilationist guy.

He's the guy that a lot of people that now turn to the annihilationist position go to because he's got the

YouTube channel for that. So to prepare for that debate, I'd have to listen to hours and hours of video.

And you already can observe, I'm having enough time getting stuff done to put on my podcast.

I can't keep up with the podcast. So I just didn't have the time. And that's no disrespect to Chris or anybody else.

The debate hosts that were inviting me to that debate. I just don't have the time to do it.

But anyway, how did I get on that? What was I saying before that? Chris Date. Oh no, yeah,

I remember what it was. So Chris said in the discussion that he's a debater at heart.

And at one point he was kind of going on and he had to stop himself and say, I apologize. I just have that debater's mindset.

And that led me to believe, okay, you had agreed upon ahead of time. All of you had agreed upon this was not going to be a debate.

This was just gonna be a friendly chat to try to model friendliness. And I can appreciate that.

I appreciate that you were able to model that friendliness. But look at the video that John Piper hosted called

A Night of Eschatology. I think this is 20 years old now. This goes back a while or 15 years, something like that.

It goes back to 2010 at least. Or at the earliest, latest, anyway.

Yeah, anyway. But that debate was John Piper who was hosting it,

Douglas Wilson who represented post -millennialism, Sam Storms that represented amillennialism and Jim Hamilton who was the historic pre -millennialist.

There was not a dispensationalist at that panel. Okay. John Piper was also a historic or classical pre -millennialist at that table.

That was a debate. Yes. That was a fantastic debate. And it was still friendly and all those guys were friends with each other after it was done.

Yes. You can have this debate and still demonstrate friendliness. But this round table discussion that Kirk Cameron hosted was not that.

Yeah. And I think that there were some things in there that were helpful to kind of understand the positions.

I don't think you're gonna get a thorough understanding especially of the annihilationist position. Well, especially if you just decided this not that long ago.

Right, yeah. Kirk Cameron just came into this, just announced it in December and now suddenly he's hosting round table discussions.

And of course he set this up. He built this to be, I don't mean set it up in a bad way.

And I'm not saying that he was being deceiving and he set up. Right, of course. But he did set this up to be annihilationists deserve a seat at the table.

And that's what this was. So Noah, that's why you kind of felt a little unsettled by it.

And I will say of those five men, they were very evangelical. They kept the eternal things in perspective.

They gave a good gospel call in that presentation still putting before people, listen, the judgment of God is scary.

Doesn't matter which of these positions you take. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. And so calling people to repentance and believe in the

Lord Jesus Christ. Don't let your view of hell keep you from believing in Jesus. Cause it's like,

I just don't want to believe a God who would do something like that. You are under judgment if you are not in Christ.

So repent and come to Christ. And then also they gave a charge for the rest of us. If we believe this, if we believe

God's judgment is poured out on the wicked and we love those who are going to hell, then we need to be bold in telling them and we need to have courage and tell them about the gospel.

Knowing that it is only by faith in Jesus Christ. This is the only way that you can be saved from the dreadful wrath of God that is to come.

But I just think that the traditional view of eternal torment is gonna be more convincing than just you're annihilated.

Yeah. Because again, as you pointed out, Noah, that's exactly what the atheist teaches. The atheist thinks nothing happens to us when we die.

We just cease to exist. Right. Which is basically getting out of punishment. Yeah, right.

That there aren't any real lasting consequences for your actions.

So hence why the annihilationist view is just not really convincing. It doesn't comport with scripture and then it's not even convincing from an evangelical standpoint.

Yeah. So anyway. Well, I was just thinking it doesn't go with, like we know truths about God and how he reacts to things.

So we know he is righteous. We know he is all loving, but we also know -

And eternally those things. And eternally. Yes. Yes, forever. And we know that he is not on the same timeline as us because we are finite beings and he is not.

He's infinite. And so - And back to 2 Peter 3. So a day is like a thousand years.

Yes. And a thousand years is one day to the Lord. Right, exactly. And so for us to wrap our minds around this being an eternal thing is very, very difficult.

And I understand us shying away from it because it's scary to think that it goes on forever.

But at the same time, we have to also trust the Lord that he is sovereign and he knows that this is for his glory.

Yeah, he will be glorified even in the destruction of the wicked. Right. And revelation is clear about that.

Right. The saints will praise him forever because he has poured out his judgment on the wicked. Right.

On the Hear the Word of the Lord broadcast, this was just recently read in Mark 9, verse 42.

Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell to the unquenchable fire.

And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.

And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell where their worm does not die and their fire is not quenched.

For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, how will you make it salty again?

Have salt in yourselves and be at peace with one another. That statement in verse 48 is quoted from Isaiah, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

So this is the death of the body that is continuously decaying and never actually perishes.

The worm continues to feed upon it. The fire continues to burn upon it. It doesn't just extinguish and go out and is annihilated.

It is tormented forever. And that is the eternity for the one who does not believe in Jesus.

But friends, for us who do believe in Christ, we have nothing to fear of that day. The day of judgment is called a day of dread for those who are not in Christ.

It is a day of great joy for us who are in Christ. And so believe in the

Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will be saved. My friends, we thank you again for joining us.

And if you have any questions, you can send them to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com or send us a voicemail, www .tt

.com. Click on that voicemail tab. Babe, let's finish here with prayer. Yes, let's.

Heavenly Father, we thank you for what we've discussed in this program. And I pray that we do take these subjects very, very seriously.

These things we've talked about have eternal ramifications. Whether it's been about sharing the gospel, being a herald of righteousness in the midst of a crooked and depraved generation.

Whether it is struggling through a bad marriage, but continuing to hold fast to Christ even in the midst of these difficult things.

Or whether we are grappling with matters of eternal significance, heaven and hell and everything that pertains to that.

In all things, we are in submission to Christ. We trust in you. We know that you hold all things in your hands.

And as Becky had brought out, you are working all things together for good for those who love you and are called according to your purpose.

And so we trust you in all these things, never doubting, but always looking toward the great and wonderful future that is laid up for us in Christ Jesus.

He paid for our way into eternal life with his own blood. His death on the cross, his resurrection from the grave so that we too in Christ Jesus will rise again.