Dr. Jim Renihan

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three. Three-three-four-one. And now with today's topic here is James white.

And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning. Have a special guest today. So I would invite you to participate With your questions on our subject today. That means not other subjects but the subject that we are discussing today at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one our Special guest today is dr. Jim Renahan and dr. Renahan my goodness Institute Reform Baptist Studies Westminster Seminary in Escondido, California down there where they were dodging burning embers only a few months ago sadly, but There in Southern, California and The author of well, I don't think the term I think editor is a better term.

For his new book true confessions Baptist documents in the Reformed family and dr. Renahan. It is good to have you with us. Thank you. It's good to be with you again now Jim. I've got to ask you right up off the top I think the Baptist documents in the Reformed family is your part of the title and I think true confessions came from Barcelona.

Am I right? No. Because everybody I mentioned true confessions, it's like oh, is this the inside stuff from Westminster Seminary? What's this all about, you know? I'm starting to think okay who would have had any contact here and there, you know Richard's always a good person to blame for pretty much anything you want to blame for but So tell us a little bit about True confessions.

I have it here in my hand. It is it is a spiral bound work I would assume so that you can open it nice and wide and compare things. So why would you want to be comparing anything in this book exactly?

Yes, that's why we did it that way.

Well, it's it's a book of four parts in which I've tried to put together the major confessions and catechisms in in Baptist history recognized across the board pretty much and To compare them with the family that they come from the source documents and and the idea is to be able to demonstrate the the common doctrines that we as Baptists have especially Reformed Baptists that we have with Historic Christianity in its much broader stream.

Hmm.

So I'm looking. I just popped open pages 112 and 113 here for example. Okay, and first thing catches my catches my eye. We have a comparison here of the 1677 London Confession of Faith. We have the the Savoy document here the and the declaration I mean and then we have the Westminster Confession of Faith.

And what you evidently have done is you have.

Bolded.

Those sections that are different between these particular Documents and what just immediately caught my eye just I literally I just flipped it open. Sort of like some people do exegesis and just popped it open and Under justification I notice a particular word that is found in the 1677 and the Savoy but it's not in the Westminster Confession of Faith which comes earlier so this would be something that you know, you can comment on this, but Specifically in the line nevertheless.

They are not justified Personally until the Holy Spirit doth in due time apply actually apply Christ unto them Personally is bolded in the 1677 and in the Savoy, but it's not found in the Westminster Confession of Faith.

So just at a glance you can just catch these things and then you're left wondering why there's differences. And that's what I have to go to Westminster and ask you those questions, right? Well that there you go.

The the reason for this is that between the base document here is the Westminster Confession 1647 or 48 and then the men like John Owen Adapted it and published the Savoy Declaration 1658 and then the Baptists used both of those documents to publish their own confession in 1677.

Well between when the Westminster was published in in the late 1640s a doctrine called justification from eternity Began to develop and so it was important to add this statement personally here in order to head off those who were promoting that view and.

So you can look at that and Obviously, this isn't intended to necessarily provide all that kind of background, right? But it demonstrates these things for you. I also noticed there's a fairly major block on page 112 where you have In the Westminster you have Christ by his obedience and death did fully discharge the debt of all those that are thus justified.

Now that's underlined. So the the thus is what has been. Isn't any other to that is that correct? That's the idea and did make a proper real and full satisfaction to his father's justice and their behalf that has been expanded rather Largely by the addition of by the sacrifice himself and the blood of his cross undergoing in their stead the penalty due unto them.

Some of this would obviously I think be relevant in light of Modern controversies, especially in regards to the nature of Imputation and then what kind of righteousness is it that is imputed so on so forth.

So excellent. How long did it take you to to put something like this together? Well.

Like I said, there are four parts here hard to quantify. I did that this part two that we're looking at right now first.

And.

Actually self published it back in 2000 and then decided that it would be helpful to do it with the first London Confession which is the first section of the book and then the Baptist Catechism and then at the end a document that's not so well known but very important called the Orthodox Catechism, which was a Revision of the Heidelberg Catechism done by a guy.

I like to call him a mighty man of God because his name was Hercules Collins.

Oh the names that people gave their children many years ago You none of your children ended up being named Hercules. No, sadly none of them. Maybe maybe grandchildren. You tried but got got vetoed on that.

Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking about that too now let's let's back up just a little bit and Let's talk a little bit about Your work there at Westminster out from which I would imagine this is very consistent.

Yeah product of your of your scholarship there. I had the distinct pleasure last year of being in attendance and watching as you were installed as Professor they was professor of historical theology. Is that correct?

Yes, that's correct at Westminster Seminary in Escondido now Some of our listeners would recognize That that's a rather significant Event and it's a significant event especially I think because of the fact that All the time you've been over there at Westminster. You have not hidden the fact that you are a Reformed Baptist.

And so to be made a full professor in that fashion Obviously speaks to the relationship that you have worked and labored very hard at Creating there at Westminster Seminary and for me it's highly significant because I look at what Westminster has done in standing in regards to the issue of justification and and Putting itself out there and taking the lumps that have come from doing so believe me.

I certainly see enough of them on the web to recognize that When it comes to issues of the gospel when it comes to issues of the nature of justification the central doctrines There is far more shall we use the term cobelligerence? between conservative Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists than there frequently are between conservative Presbyterians and other kinds of Presbyterians and so comment if you would on the work that you've done in in creating that kind of a.

Relationship there at Westminster. Well, yeah, just so that everybody understands. I'm not actually a professor on the faculty of Westminster Seminary. We have a our school the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies is in its 10th year of working alongside of Westminster here and so as far as the government is concerned were two separate schools and the promotion that I had wasn't Made by Westminster.

It was made by the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies. But we we've been here for 10 years we've had a really great relationship. They have been extremely kind to us in inviting us to come and work with them.

I think that it has gone very very well. You know, we you still always have the bump in the road about our differences on baptism that that always is there. But because we know that it's there There's been a real Christian approach to the differences that we have on that issue.

I think that there's a high level of mutual respect between the two institutions. I know that the the Westminster administration and faculty regularly Expressed to me how much they appreciate our and I I can say the same for them.

They've always been been very kind. I'm sure sometimes the students in the student lounge go at it with one another.

Now now your students at the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies are likewise taking classes. You know, yeah, they're at Westminster from the other professors, right and Westminster grants the degree, right?

Yeah, right. So obviously that I would imagine that there are some Who have looked a bit askance at Westminster's willingness to work with the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies. I certainly get Comments every once in a while about how I don't deserve the term reformed and so on so forth but but other than that when you're when you're we're looking at such an odd time in history where there seems to just any kind of odd variation on any element of the faith.

Maybe it's because partly because of the Availability of the Internet's and the ability of people to get their ideas out there in a much easier way than they could only 50 Years ago or you know I don't know but it just seems that as long as somebody had comes up with a new way of seeing things They they gather an audience and this ends up causing all sorts of difficulties in that kind of a context Westminster has in Escondido has has been willing to stand up and say.

No.

Especially when it comes the issue of Justification and that to me is so important. Yes. Yeah, they've been right on the front line. And have taken quite the number of shots in in the process. Yeah, and I.

Gather that they're about to take another shot. There's a book that either it's just been published or just coming out that.

Goes after them. So I'm glad to stand with them. Well good. Yeah, and it's it's a good thing to see now. Obviously your Primary area of focus has been obviously in Baptist history and Sometimes I get the distinct feeling that you would rather have been born somewhere in the 16 or 1700s.

Yes, yes, no kidding. Wouldn't you. Wouldn't you sometimes wonder how these men kept their sanctification when they didn't have.

The things we have do it, isn't it true? I love the 17th century, but I really don't think I'd want to live there.

You read about all these wonderful diseases that we can take care of with a single pill now and these guys struggle with them for Years, but hey, maybe I had something to do with their single-minded Sanctification or something.

I don't know but it's it's possible, but this is your area and Obviously you've done a great deal of work in this this area, but let's let's Let me. I'm not playing devil's advocate. I'm afraid I'm having to speak the truth here.

Baptists are not known in general and I'm speaking in general and I'm talking about general Baptist either but Reformed Baptists are a little bit of an odd breed, but Baptists as a whole are not really known for their historical acumen savvy and focus and so I would think that a lot of Modern-day Baptists would go.

I don't really care what happened three or four hundred years ago. How do you respond when you encounter that kind of a of an attitude on the part of people?

Well, you're right that generally speaking. That's the case, you know, there there has been a handful. How would I respond? Well, I would respond by saying that we must not think of ourselves in our own generation as If we are the kingdom of God.

Christ has been active with his people as in years church and what the church has done and recognized that we are a small part of one generation part of Multi-generations who have testified to the the authority of Scripture to the doctrine of Christ the of the kingdom of God.

Checking ourselves recognizing that if I come up with a brand new idea that hasn't been known to the church for 2 ,000 years I ought to be really really hesitant to adopt it. You know, you you know that the whole I know that in the debate that you've done and your your conversations with others about the fathers and all our our sense of who we are and Our connectedness to the past and not just to the past of the Reformation.

If Christianity is vitally important to our own understanding of our identity.

You know, I would say that without an an understanding or at least a recognition of our place in in history and the fact that we stand in this long line that that God has been building his church and that his church has not always Looked like a 21st century Baptist Church.

Yeah. I think that if we don't have that now, I'm gonna get emails about this. But I'm gonna say it and I'm gonna put in a context and if you had people ignore the context. There's nothing to do about it.

But if we don't have that idea. Then solo scriptura almost always ends up being perverted into what's called by some Solo scriptura and that's where people end up having a willingness to in essence Come up with new things as you said or to say, you know what?

I'm only gonna accept certain parts of scripture. I'm gonna take these things out of balance. It's it's that those two things have to be held together and I think it's a recognition and it's a biblical teaching.

I mean God has been building his church. I mean, that's that's just part of what the Bible teaches. But it just seems to me that these people who go off on these tangents and start doing these odd and strange things.

They don't have any respect for what the Holy Spirit has done in the building of his church over time.

Yeah, that's right. And you know, there's another phrase that sometimes is used not to be provocative, but the phrase is new da script or right and You know some someone has argued I think I think well That the Reformation itself in in one sense can be viewed as an argument over how to interpret the fathers of the church.

A man named Anthony Lane Tony Lane has written a fabulous book on the use of the fathers in John Calvin and Has helped to demonstrate that Calvin just as an exemplar there are many many others were well conversed with the history of the church with the fathers and They viewed their own work that they were doing as part of that long stream of Christianity.

I just was reading recently Karl Truman's new biography of John Owen and he makes the same point at the beginning how well Versed Owen was in the history of the church and in the writings of the men who came before him and how that Contributed to his own formulation of Christian theology.

If we don't do that. There's there's not only are we subject to error, but there's a kind of arrogance mm-hmm that That we somehow have the answers that we can know better than everyone else. We can't do that.

You know, I am just in passing I might mention I don't know if you have noted that I have gone to doing a whole lot of videos on my blog. But I posted last week the videos of a television program. That I was on for a number of hours in London back in May of last year and sitting right next to me was Tony Lane, so you happen to mention him and it was it was very interesting being with him because we were taking live calls.

And it was a primarily very charismatic Television program and we were discussing election so, you know, they'd come to Tony and he's like well. And then you just know he wants to give about 30 minute background.

And you're only you get 30 seconds. So it's sort of sort of tough to do but it was it was very enjoyable to get to meet him and I'm sure that program. So you might find that interesting. Just don't laugh at what I look like because I had I had landed they lost my luggage I had to borrow all my clothes and hadn't slept for about 36 hours at that point.

So I I sort of look a little odd, but it it went pretty well anyways. But you know what you just said about the idea of arrogance. That does seem sadly to be the way that a lot of Baptists are viewed when.

You know, we joke about it. But it is functionally true that for many people Church history goes back to you know, Billy Graham is about the beginning of church history for most Baptists yeah, and that's that's a tremendous blow to us because Baptists have an Incredibly encouraging history of of men who have stood firm for the faith and we lose a lot of Tremendous examples when we in essence cut ourselves off from what God has been doing even amongst our own our own people for quite.

Some time. Yeah. Yeah, that's absolutely right.

Some of those men, you know We're willing to give their lives and we live in a day where there are many individuals in the world who are you know? The persecuted church is something that's very big on my mind, especially in light of my you can't study Islam without being constantly faced with the persecution of of Christian believers and It's a tremendous example to look back and see that this isn't the first generation where people have had to stand for the faith.

877 -753 -3341 is the phone number if you would have questions or comments you would like to ask Jim Renahan, you can give us a call today 877 -753 -3341 as is always the case. People like to wait until the end and then go.

Oh, oh, oh, I oh Would like to ask that and then you get 30 seconds to do it and you can't get a real decent answer so be wise and dial early 877 -753 -3341 now,. I Noticed that you are using the 1677 London Confession of Faith.

Why don't you explain for folks who are listening? What's the difference between?

1677 and 1689. Yeah, actually, there's no difference at all heard to with the 1689 date and Curiously, we don't have any evidence that it was actually published in that year. We know that it was published in 1677 and in 1688 and in 1699.

The reason it has the 1689 date is that there was a General Assembly of Churches in London in September of that year. There were over a hundred churches that were represented or sent letters. They communicated with the General Assembly and that General Assembly adopted it and promoted it among the churches and so.

Later on the date of 1689 was attached to the confession, but it really was first published in.

1677 so what you're saying is like my YouTube ID is dr. Oakley 1689 that I need to change that to dr. Oakley 1677. Well, no, you don't have to change.

A great day.

Except nothing happened except for that that get-together there. No, come on. So so 1677 so you're talking couple three decades ish. After the Westminster Confession of Faith, what's been going on in?

England between Baptists and Presbyterians during that time period. Yeah.

Well, it's a period of perfect Oliver Cromwell died and his son Richard came to power. But he really was not able to rule at all. He resigned. And in 1660 the English Parliament to come back from the continent and Take the throne again.

So he he returned and from 1670 up until about 1688 or 1689 it was a period of intermittent persecution and peace sometimes The the against those who didn't join up with the Church of England. Sometimes they would be left to themselves.

Sometimes the persecution depended on who was in power in the county where he lived.

Mm-hmm.

If somebody really was in favor of the Church of England and hated everybody else the Persecution could be great. John Bunyan is a man who faced that kind of a situation. We're in another county. If there were sympathies or someone who didn't really care about religion Maybe you could go on for years without any problems.

He was called a dissenter or Non-conformist that is anybody who wouldn't agree to submit to the authority and the practices of and so during this period time.

It's interesting. It's in regards to persecution. That's exactly the situation during the early years of Christianity it was it was a matter of whether the local guy wanted to do the persecution or not most often.

But so during that that period of time Obviously when you're persecuted by a ruling majority.

Mm-hmm.

Why in the world would you want to produce a statement of faith? That in in the main with with very particular and important Differences, but but in the main demonstrates that you are very much. Especially on the key doctrines of faith in line with those who are in authority.

Yeah, it was a was to demonstrate their their well first they wanted to demonstrate their orthodoxy in general because there are all kinds of rumors going around about Heterodoxy that they were sectarians and they wanted to demonstrate that but it was a bold move because it identified them to their opponents and and opened up the door for Persecution and it wasn't the only thing that they did for example in 1680 or 1681 the first known ordination service during the period of persecution.

Public ordination service in which the sermon that was preached at the ordination service was published was done by the particular Baptist. These guys stood up and they identified themselves and They you know, they held this ordination service for an elder and some deacons.

The churches in London came together. They they were willing to face whatever difficulties they faced oftentimes. Usually the persecution came upon the ministers less so upon the members of the churches, but one of them for example, Hercules Collins went to jail and He he wrote to his church afterwards and he commended them.

Because through all of the the months when he was in jail. The church never failed to meet together on a Lord's Day to worship. Even though they're present with them and he commended them for their courage and being able to do this.

Out in Bristol, they were there were four congregationalist and they were present tried to meet together and came together. And the layman who would preach to them or you know. Someone who wasn't ordained or maybe there was a retired minister who could would be able to preach them.

But they maintained their testimony in the face of persecution while their pastors were in jail. It's really a marvelous story.

And it would be so encouraging for folks today. But again, we so rarely teach in our churches based upon Examples of the past like that because we don't we don't know what the past is now. Let me. We're gonna take a break here in a moment.

But let me just throw this this out in that context and that is all right. So they want to demonstrate the orthodoxy. There have been people saying well, you know, these people are not Orthodox. They want to demonstrate that was not the case.

I Recently put a we call them vlogs a video log on on my site where I I quoted or showed Dave Hunt Saying that he he was talking about the the persecution of Baptists in England and and he says I did I just find it so ironic that there are so many Baptists today who call themselves Calvinists and obviously, he was blaming Calvinism as a whole for the persecution of Baptists in England and I.

How would you respond to someone who says well, you know The only reason that the 1689 or 1677 is as reformed as it is It walks right along with the Westminster in regards to predestination and election and things like that.

The only reason is they were they were basically trying to Move their theology over to try to avoid persecution. What would you say to someone like that? Well, that's exactly wrong.

It's absolutely 180 degrees in the wrong direction. Because it was the Presbyterians and the independence or the Congregationalists who were the the most Focused targets of persecution by the Church of England the the Baptist generally didn't have ministers.

Who had been part of the Church of England?

Okay.

But the the Presbyterians and the Congregationalists were their ministers were men who had been trained at Oxford or Cambridge. They most of them had been ordained by a bishop in the years when Charles the first was still in power and they were the ones who were forced out of the Church of England.

They were the targets of persecution for the Baptist to identify with them. The Baptists are essentially saying we're willing to take it alongside of you. They were the ones who were suffering the most and the Baptists were identifying with them.

It didn't relieve them of persecution. It actually exposed them to greater persecution by identifying with these men.

Well, there you go folks. Dave Hunt refuted once again. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We are going to take a brief break and.

We right back with Jim Renihan everyone. This is Rich Pierce.

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And welcome back to dividing line. My name is James White and I imagine Jim Renhan saying they're going. Hey, I could use a really cool commercial like that for my book. And we can probably come up with something for something like true confessions, I mean there's find some some old Detective story type music, you know, and I'd be that'd be sort of fun.

So you don't you don't have a rich rich Pierce back there doing that kind of stuff where that's what you need is. Something like that or Bursell's could do something like that because he could find somebody in the family to do it for him.

Really good, you know.

I.

Hope he listens to this because he certainly is good at making sure that. Well, when are you gonna have Jim on. When are you gonna have Jim on. When are you gonna have Jim on? He's a good guy, so anyways, we are talking about a a new publication that is available now from Reformed Baptist academic press Also lovingly known as our BAP called true confessions Baptist documents and the Reformed family, obviously.

If you are in a Reformed Baptist Church or really any Baptist Church where you can actually use the term Reformed or Calvinist without being excommunicated. There are some where you cannot let me assure you and you are interested in teaching in your adult Sunday school classes Bible study classes Wednesday night whenever it might be and you want to teach on the history of Baptist things like this this would be a resource that you simply would not want to be without and I'm glad to have the editor of this work James Renahan from Southern California.

Now, I did mention Jim you. You told me that during the fires there it got awful close to you, didn't it?

It did. Yeah, just Five six houses away. We had a house burned down. Mm-hmm. Very close. What does that look like?

I've never been in anything like that. Is it's almost surreal to to see those kinds of Clouds and and the billowing smoke and things like that. I can't imagine what it's like.

Well When you walk out the front door you look up the the whole sky is covered with a gray cloud and then you look in the direction of the fire and it's A huge orange glow. Mm-hmm. You see things blowing through the air.

Of course, it's it's during a period when there's strong winds. And that's that's why the house so here on my street burned. The fire line itself was a mile or two to the east. But some embers blew up from from that they were raining down on the neighborhood and this house Still had an old wood shake roof on it so one of those embers hit it and caught it and so it burned and then the house next to it caught on fire and Shrubbery in the house next to it caught on fire.

We had already evacuated so I didn't see it. I only saw the aftermath when I returned but I guess it was was quite an event. My goodness. Yes.

Well, we were praying for you all at that time and certainly for the seminary as well because we knew it was very close there and goodness you go to Go to Southern, California. You got riots and you got fires and you got earthquakes and then then then it rains and everything washes away.

And it's like wow. Hey, no wonder everybody moves there. And then you go to McDonald's and everything is three dollars or 47 cents more than it is here in Phoenix. So, you know, I I don't know what to say.

But I guess those hundred and twenty degree temperatures during the summer keep everybody from moving over here or something.

On my part, that's what would keep me.

Well, yeah, I gotta admit the that area is sort of nice as far as weather goes normally. Well, let's see if we can't get both the dr. Anaheim and Eddie on here at the same time. Let's talk with Eddie from Nylons.

Hi, Eddie. Hey.

Well next time you need some water. You can talk to me. I'm below sea level.

That's right. You are.

We've been Katrina stuff so kind of ironic. We ought to switch places when that happens.

Well, it would be nice to have a pipeline that could go on over there. We could use some of the water around here. We've had a ten-year drought that's been going on around here but I remember very well going to Nylons and driving around Nylons with Eddie and.

I.

Don't know if I've ever publicly announced this Eddie, but you are a prophet. I'm going to be able to demonstrate that you are a prophet because I remember very distinctly as we were driving around you said.

Now you realize that Nylons is a is a big is a big bowl and Most of its below sea level he said and I said someday a category four or five hurricanes gonna nail this place and wipe half Of it out and that was about.

What was that about? 2003 2004 somewhere around in there and a few years later. Well, there you go. So, I'm not sure why you're not on TBN making the big bucks.

We knew that we knew that situation for a while, let me let me let me ask the question. I Recently have grown very fond of church history where in the past I didn't care about it at all and I think a lot of people are in that boat and I as a reformed bohemian I Particularly and Very cultural.

I'm a musician. I love the arts. And so a lot of the emergent church, which has really become very big Appeals to me just in the fact of it. It's uh, it's relevance in the sense of it's up-to-date. Of course, I know that theologically it's bankrupt as one person I think Phil Johnson even put it's um the wrong answers to perhaps good problems um, I think What I'm getting at is this and I'd like to just get your response to this Dr. Renahan is that it seems as though sometimes I think a little bit of responsibility falls on the part of those as the Conservators of the ancient truth that they haven't made them Not stuffy or let's put it this way.

Sometimes old in people's minds is automatically stuffy and irrelevant and new is an abandonment of truth. You know, like if you go to a church, that's really solid in their doctrine or solid into Puritans and loving church history.

Um, they don't tend to have a PowerPoint presentation. They don't tend to have new pews or chairs, uh, it tends to be an old stuffy place like it's a 16th century mausoleum and Although I know that may be a broad brush I think that's part of what a lot of people respond to there's nothing there that church seems to have kept up with Being attractive.

I like Alpha and Omega ministries except for the website, but we won't talk about that I know it's in the process of being done, but it all as we actually are speaking. But but in other words, it's okay to be up-to-date.

It's okay to have a church that looks like it was, you know Remodeled recently and things like that. And I think the academic people tend to be Loving the old smelly places because that's where you find the best books and so I Know I don't want to be meandering a bit, but we know the truth doesn't change but certainly how we communicate it I think has to change or we lose generations of people and You know my interest came Ministers and other people in the faith that would tell me you have to read this you have to read this.