Dr. Jim Renihan

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed
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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.
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White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the
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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three -three -four -one And now with today's topic here is
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James white And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning have a special guest today
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So I would invite you to participate With your questions on our subject today
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That means not other subjects but the subject that we are discussing today at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one our
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Special guest today is dr. Jim Renahan and dr. Renahan my goodness
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Institute reformed Baptist Studies Westminster seminary in Escondido, California down there where they were dodging burning embers only a few months ago sadly, but There in Southern, California and The author of well,
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I don't think the term I think editor is a better term For his new book true confessions
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Baptist documents in the reformed family and dr. Renahan. It is good to have you with us
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Thank you. It's good to be with you again now Jim. I've got to ask you right up off the top I think the
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Baptist documents in the reformed family is your part of the title and I think true confessions came from Barcelona Am I right?
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No Because everybody I mentioned true confessions, it's like oh, is this the inside stuff from Westminster seminary?
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What's this all about, you know? I'm starting to think okay, who would have had any contact here and there, you know
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Richard's always a good person to blame for pretty much anything you want to blame for but So tell us a little bit about True confessions,
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I have it here in my hand. It is it is a spiral bound work I would assume so that you can open it nice and wide and compare things
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So why would you want to be comparing anything in this book exactly? Yes, that's why we did it that way Well, it's it's a book of four parts in which
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I've tried to put together the major confessions and catechisms in in Baptist history recognized across the board pretty much and To compare them with the family that they come from the source documents and and the idea is to be able to demonstrate the the common doctrines that we as Baptists have especially
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Reformed Baptists that we have with Historic Christianity in its much broader stream. Hmm So I'm looking
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I just popped open pages 112 and 113 here for example Okay, and first thing catches my catches my eye
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We have a comparison here of the 1677 London Confession of Faith.
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We have the the Savoy document here the and the declaration I mean and then we have the
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Westminster Confession of Faith and what you evidently have done is you have bolded
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Those sections that are different between these particular Documents and what just immediately caught my eye just I literally
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I just flipped it open Sort of like some people do exegesis and just popped it open and Under justification
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I notice a particular word that is found in the 1677 and the
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Savoy But it's not in the Westminster Confession of Faith, which comes earlier so this would be something that you know, you can comment on this, but Specifically in the line nevertheless.
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They are not justified Personally until the Holy Spirit doth in due time apply actually apply
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Christ unto them Personally is bolded in the 1677 and in the Savoy, but it's not found in the
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Westminster Confession of Faith So just at a glance you can just catch these things and then you're left wondering why there's differences
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And that's what I have to go to Westminster and ask you those questions, right? Well that there you go The the reason for this is that between the base document here is the
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Westminster Confession 1647 or 48 and then the men like John Owen Adapted it and published the
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Savoy Declaration 1658 and then the Baptists used both of those documents to publish their own confession in 1677 well between when the
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Westminster was published in in the late 1640s a doctrine called justification from eternity
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Began to develop and so it was important to add this statement personally here in order to head off those who were promoting that view and so you can look at that and Obviously, this isn't intended to necessarily provide all that kind of background, right?
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But it demonstrates these things for you. I also noticed there's a fairly major block on page 112 where you have
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In the Westminster you have Christ by his obedience and death did fully discharge the debt of all those that are thus justified
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Now that's underlined. So the the thus is what has been
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Isn't any other to that is that correct? That's the idea and did make a proper real and full satisfaction to his father's justice and their behalf that has been expanded rather Largely by the addition of by the sacrifice himself and the blood of his cross undergoing in their stead the penalty due unto them
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Some of this would obviously I think be relevant in light of Modern controversies, especially in regards to the nature of Imputation and then what kind of righteousness is it that is imputed so on so forth.
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So excellent How long did it take you to to put something like this together? Well, like I said, there are four parts here
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It's hard to quantify I Did that this part two that we're looking at right now first and Actually self published it back in 2000 and then decided that it would be helpful to do it with the first London Confession which is the first section of the book and then the
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Baptist Catechism and then at the end a document that's not so well known but very important called the
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Orthodox Catechism, which was a revision of the Heidelberg Catechism done by a guy.
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I like to call him a mighty man of God because his name was Hercules Collins. Oh The names that people gave their children many years ago
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You none of your children ended up being named Hercules. No sadly none of them.
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Maybe maybe grandchildren You tried but got got vetoed on that. Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking about that too now let's let's back up just a little bit and Let's talk a little bit about Your work there at Westminster out from which
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I would imagine this is very consistent Yeah product of your of your scholarship there. I had the distinct pleasure last year of being in attendance and watching as you were installed as Professor but it was professor of historical theology.
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Is that correct? Yes, that's correct at Westminster Seminary in Escondido now Some of our listeners would recognize
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That that's a rather significant Event and it's a significant event
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Especially I think because of the fact that All the time you've been over there
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Westminster. You have not hidden the fact that you are a Reformed Baptist And so to be made a full professor in that fashion
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Obviously speaks to the relationship that you have worked and labored very hard at Creating there at Westminster Seminary and for me it's highly significant because I look at what
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Westminster has done in standing in regards to the issue of Justification and and putting itself out there and taking the lumps that have come from doing so believe me
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I certainly see enough of them on the web to recognize that When it comes to issues of the gospel when it comes to issues of the nature of justification the central doctrines
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There is far more shall we use the term cobelligerence? between conservative
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Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists than there frequently are between conservative Presbyterians and other kinds of Presbyterians and so comment if you would on the work that you've done in in creating that kind of a
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Relationship there Westminster. Well, yeah, just so that everybody understands. I'm not actually a professor on the faculty of Westminster Seminary we have a
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Our school the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies is in its 10th year of working alongside of Westminster here
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And so as far as the government is concerned were two separate schools and the promotion that I had wasn't
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Made by Westminster. It was made by the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies But we we've been here for 10 years we've had a really great relationship
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They have been extremely kind to us in inviting us to come and work with them.
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I think that it has gone very very well You know, we you still always have the bump in the road about our differences on baptism that that always is there
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But because we know that it's there There's been a real Christian approach to the differences that we have on that issue
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I think that there's a high level of mutual respect between the two institutions
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I know that the the Westminster administration and faculty regularly expressed to me how much they appreciate our presence and The demeanor that we've had and and I I can say the same for them.
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They've always been been very kind I'm sure sometimes the students in the student lounge go at it with one another
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Now now your students at the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies are likewise taking classes
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You know, yeah there at Westminster from the other professors, right and Westminster grants the degree, right?
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Yeah, right So obviously that I would imagine that there are some
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Who have looked a bit askance at Westminster's willingness to work with the
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Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies. I certainly get Comments every once in a while about how
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I don't deserve the term reformed and so on so forth but but other than that when you're when you're we're looking at such an odd time in history where there seems to just any kind of odd variation on any element of the faith maybe it's because partly because of the
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Availability of the Internet's and the ability of people to get their ideas out there in a much easier way than they could only 50
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Years ago or you know I don't know but it just seems that as long as somebody had comes up with a new way of seeing things
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They they gather an audience and this ends up causing all sorts of difficulties in that kind of a context
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Westminster has in Escondido has has been willing to stand up and say no especially when it comes to the issue of Justification and yet to me is so important.
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Yes. Yeah, they've been right on the front line And have taken quite the number of shots in in the process.
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Yeah, and I Gather that they're about to take another shot. There's a book that either it's just been published or just coming out that Goes after them.
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So I'm glad to stand with them. Well good. Yeah, and it's it's a good thing to see now obviously your
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Primary area of focus has been obviously in Baptist history and Sometimes I get the distinct feeling that you would rather have been born somewhere in the 16 or 1700s
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Yes, yes, no kidding wouldn't you wouldn't you sometimes wonder how these men kept their sanctification when they didn't have
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The things we have do it, isn't it true? I love the 17th century, but I really don't think I'd want to live there
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You read about all these wonderful diseases that we can take care of with a single pill now and these guys struggle with them for Years, but hey, maybe
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I had something to do with their single -minded Sanctification or something. I don't know but it's it's possible, but this is your area and Obviously you've done a great deal of work in this this area, but let's let's
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Let me I'm not playing devil's advocate. I'm afraid I'm having to speak the truth here Baptists are not known in general and I'm speaking in general and I'm talking about general
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Baptist either but Reformed Baptists are a little bit of an odd breed but Baptists as a whole are not really known for their historical acumen savvy and focus and so I would think that a lot of Modern -day
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Baptists would go. I don't really care what happened three or four hundred years ago
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How do you respond when you encounter that kind of a of an attitude on the part of people? Well, you're right that generally speaking.
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That's the case You know, there has been a handful of men who have been involved in different kind of Baptist historical societies for a long time
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But generally speaking, you're right. How would I respond? well, I would respond by saying that we must not think of ourselves in our own generation as if We are the kingdom of God Christ has been active with his people in the under the new covenant for nearly 2 ,000 years and it's very important for us to be aware of his activity of the work of the
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Holy Spirit in the church and what the church has done and recognized that we are a small part of one generation part of multi -generations who have testified to the the authority of Scripture to the doctrine of Christ to the proclamation of the gospel and it it helps us to have a sense of the the whole nature of the elect the entirety of the kingdom of God it
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Humbles us it teaches us the importance of checking ourselves with the past Recognizing that if I come up with a brand new idea that hasn't been known to the church for 2 ,000 years
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I ought to be really really hesitant to adopt it You know, you you know that the whole
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I know that in the debate that you've done and your your conversations with others about the fathers and all our our sense of who we are and Our connectedness to the past and not just to the past of the
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Reformation But the past of the whole history of Christianity is vitally important to our own understanding of our identity you know,
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I would say that without an an understanding or at least a recognition of our place in in history and the fact that we stand in this long line that that God has been
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Building his church and that his church has not always looked like a 21st century
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Baptist Church I think that if we don't have that Now I'm gonna get emails about this
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But I'm gonna say it and I'm gonna put in a context and if you had people ignore the context There's nothing to do about it. But if we don't have that idea
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Then solo scriptura almost always ends up being perverted into what's called by some
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Solo scriptura and that's where people end up having a willingness to in essence
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Come up with new things as you said or to Say, you know what? I'm only gonna accept certain parts of scripture.
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I'm gonna take these things out of balance It's it's that those two things have to be held together.
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And I think it's a recognition and it's a biblical teaching I mean God has been building his church I mean, that's that's just part of what the
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Bible teaches But it just seems to me that these people who go off on these tangents and start doing these odd and strange things
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They don't have any respect for what the Holy Spirit has done in the building of his church over time
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Yeah, that that's right. And you know, there's another phrase that sometimes is used not to be provocative, but the phrase is nude a script or right and You know some someone has argued and I think
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I think well That the Reformation itself in in one sense can be viewed as an argument over how to interpret the fathers of the church
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But a man named Anthony Lane Tony Lane has written a fabulous book on the use of the fathers in John Calvin and Has helped to demonstrate that Calvin just as an exemplar there are many many others were well conversed with the history of the church with the fathers and They viewed their own work that they were doing as part of that long stream of Christianity I just was reading recently
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Karl Truman's new biography of John Owen and he makes the same point at the beginning how well
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Versed Owen was in the history of the church and in the writings of the men who came before him and how that Contributed to his own formulation of Christian theology if we don't do that There's there's not only are we subject to error, but there's a kind of arrogance that that That we somehow have the answers that we can know better than everyone else we can't do that You know
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I just in passing I might mention I don't know if you have noted that I have gone to doing a whole lot of videos on my blog
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But I posted last week the videos of a television program
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That I was on for a number of hours in London back in May of last year and sitting right next to me was
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Tony Lane So I happen to mention him and it was it was very interesting being with him because we were taking live calls
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And it was a primarily very charismatic Television program on and we were discussing election, so you know they come to Tony, and he's like well
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And then you just know he wants to give about 30 -minute background And you're only you get 30 seconds, so it's sort of tough to do
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But it was it was very enjoyable to get to meet him and enjoy that program So you might find that interesting just don't laugh at what
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I look like because I had I had landed They lost my luggage I had to borrow all my clothes and hadn't slept for about 36 hours at that point so I Sort of look a little odd, but it it went pretty well anyways
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But you know what you just said about the idea of arrogance That does seem sadly to be the way that a lot of Baptists are viewed when
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You know we joke about it But it is functionally true that for many people church history goes back to you know
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Billy Graham is about the beginning of church history for most Baptists and that's that's a tremendous blow to us because Baptists have an
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Incredibly encouraging history of men who have stood firm for the faith
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And we lose a lot of tremendous examples when we in essence cut ourselves off from what
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God has been doing Even amongst our own our own people for quite some time. Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely right
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Some of those men you know we're willing to give their lives And we live in a day where there are many individuals in the world who are you know the persecuted church is something?
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It's very big on my mind especially in light of my you can't study Islam without being constantly faced with the persecution of Christian believers, and It's a tremendous example to look back and see that this isn't the first generation where people have had to stand for the faith 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number if you would have
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Questions or comments you would like to ask Jim Renahan you can give us a call today 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1
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As is always the case People like to wait until the end and then go oh
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Oh, oh, I oh I would like to ask that and then you get 30 seconds to do it And you can't get a real decent answer so be wise and dial early 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 now
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I Noticed that you are using the 1677 London confession of faith once you explain for folks who are listening
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What's the difference between? 1677 and 1689 yeah, actually there's no difference at all the the confession usually is referred to with the 1689 date and Curiously, we don't have any evidence that it was actually published in that year
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We know that it was published in 1677 and in 1688 and in 1699 the reason it has the 1689 date is that there was a
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General Assembly of Churches in London in September of that year there were over a hundred churches that were represented or sent letters they communicated with the
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General Assembly and that General Assembly adopted it and promoted it among the churches and So later on the date of 1689 was attached to the confession
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But it really was first published in 1677 So what you're saying is like my
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YouTube ID is dr. Oakley 1689 that I need to change that to dr. Oakley 1677 well
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A great day Except nothing happened except for that that get -together there now come on So 1677 so you're talking couple three decades ish
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After the Westminster Confession of Faith, what's been going on in? England between Baptists and Presbyterians during that time period yeah, well, it's a period of persecution
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In 1658 Oliver Cromwell died and his son Richard came to power, but he really was not able to rule at all
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He resigned and in 1660 the English Parliament asked
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Charles II to come back from the continent and Take the throne again, so he he returned and from 1670 up until about 1688 or 1689 it was a period of intermittent persecution and peace sometimes the there would be
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Acts against those who didn't join up with the Church of England Sometimes they would be left to themselves
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Sometimes the persecution depended on who was in power in the county where he lived If somebody really was in favor of the
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Church of England and hated everybody else The the persecution could be great John Bunyan is a man who faced that kind of a situation where in another
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County? If there were sympathies or someone who didn't really care about religion Maybe you could go on for years without any problems
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But but it was a period of persecution for everybody was called a dissenter or non -conformist
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That is anybody who wouldn't agree to submit to the authority and the practices of the
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Church of England and So during this period of time, it's interesting. It's in regards to persecution.
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That's exactly the situation during the early Years of Christianity it was it was a matter of whether the local guy wanted to do the persecution or not most often
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But so during that that period of time Obviously when you're persecuted by a ruling majority
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Why in the world would you want to produce a statement of faith That in in the main with with very particular and important differences
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But but in the main demonstrates that you are very much
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Especially on the key doctrines of faith in line with those who are in authority
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Yeah, it was a bold move that they made and it was to demonstrate
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Their their well first they wanted to demonstrate their orthodoxy in general because there are all kinds of rumors going around about Heterodoxy that they were sectarians and they wanted to demonstrate that but it was a bold move because it identified them to their opponents and and opened up the door for Persecution and it wasn't the only thing that they did for example in 1680 or 1681 the first known ordination service
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During the period of persecution public ordination service in which the sermon that was preached at the ordination service was published
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Was done by the particular Baptist these guys stood up and they they they
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Identified themselves and they you know, they held this ordination service for an elder and some deacons the churches in London came together
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They they were willing to face whatever difficulties they faced oftentimes
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Usually the persecution came upon the ministers less so upon the members of the churches, but one of them for example,
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Hercules Collins went to jail and He he wrote to his church afterwards and he commended them
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Because through all of the the months when he was in jail The church never failed to meet together on a
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Lord's Day to worship Even though their pastor was not able to be present with them and he commended them for their courage and being able to do
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Mm -hmm out in Bristol. There were a series of churches. That's out in the west of England.
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They were there were Particular Baptist there were congregationalist and there were Presbyterians and all of their ministers were put in jail and so they they tried to meet together as as one group and worship together and maintain
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Their Christian worship, even though they were different churches with different kinds of convictions They they generally agreed on the reformed faith and so they believed that they could come together and find a way
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Whether it's one of the layman who would preach to them or you know Someone who wasn't ordained or maybe there was a retired minister who could would be able to preach them
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But they maintained their testimony in the face of persecution. Well, their pastors were in jail. It's really a marvelous story
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And it would be so encouraging for folks today But again, we so rarely teach in our churches based upon Examples of the past like that because we don't we don't know what the past is now.
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Let me We're gonna take a break here in a moment But let me just throw this this out in that context and that is all right
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So I want to demonstrate the orthodoxy there have been people saying well, you know, these people are not orthodox I want to demonstrate that was not the case.
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I Recently put a a we call them vlogs a video log on on my site where I I quoted or showed
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Dave Hunt Saying that he he was talking about the the persecution of Baptists in England and and he says
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I just find it so ironic that there are so many Baptists today who call themselves Calvinists and obviously, he was blaming
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Calvinism as a whole for the persecution of Baptists in England and I How would you respond to someone who says well, you know
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The only reason that the 1689 or 1677 is as reformed as it is
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It walks right along with the Westminster in regards to predestination and election and things like that The only reason is they were they were basically trying to Move their theology over to try to avoid persecution.
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What would you say to someone like that? Well, that's exactly wrong It's absolutely 180 degrees in the wrong direction
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Because it was the Presbyterians and the independence or the Congregationalists who were the the most
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Focused targets of persecution by the Church of England the the Baptist generally didn't have ministers
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Who had been part of the Church of England? Okay But the the Presbyterians and the
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Congregationalists were their ministers were men who had been trained at Oxford or Cambridge They most of them had been ordained by a bishop in the years when
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Charles the first was still in power and they were the ones who were forced out of the Church of England They were the targets of persecution for the
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Baptist to identify with them The Baptists are essentially saying we're willing to take it alongside of you
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They were the ones who were suffering the most and the Baptists were identifying with them It didn't relieve them a persecution.
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It actually exposed them to greater persecution by identifying with these men Well, there you go folks
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Dave Hunt refuted once again Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.
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We are going to take a brief break and We right back with Jim Rennihan Hello everyone, this is
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Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program
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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every
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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha and Omega ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses
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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?
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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well
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Support Alpha and Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.
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Thank you The criminal mishandling of God's Word may be
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James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned
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Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see
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The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his word. What has happened to this sacred duty in our day?
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The charges are as follows prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring
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God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org and welcome back to dividing line
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My name is James White and I imagine Jim Renhan saying they're going hey, I could use a really cool commercial like that for my book
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And we can probably come up with something for something like true confessions, I mean there's find some some old
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Detective story type music, you know, and I'd be that'd be sort of fun So you don't you don't have a rich rich Pierce back there doing that kind of stuff where that's what you need is
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Something like that or Bursell's could do something like that because he could find somebody in the family to do it for him Really good, you know
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I Hope he listens to this because he certainly is good at making sure that Well, when are you gonna have
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Jim on when are you gonna have Jim on when are you gonna have Jim on? He's a good guy, so anyways, we are talking about a a new publication that is available now from Reformed Baptist academic press
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Also lovingly known as our BAP called true confessions Baptist documents in the Reformed family, obviously
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If you are in a Reformed Baptist Church or really any Baptist Church where you can actually use the term
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Reformed or Calvinist without being excommunicated There are some where you cannot let me assure you and you are interested in teaching in your adult
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Sunday school classes Bible study classes Wednesday night whenever it might be and you want to teach on the history of Baptist things like this this would be a resource that you simply would not want to be without and I'm glad to have the editor of this work
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James Renahan from Southern California now I did mention Jim you you told me that during the fires there it got awful close to you, didn't it?
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It did. Yeah, just Five six houses away. We had a house burned down. Mm -hmm. Very close.
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What does that look like? I've never been in anything like that. Is it's almost surreal to to see those kinds of Clouds and and the billowing smoke and things like that.
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I can't imagine what it's like well When you walk out the front door You look up the the whole sky is covered with a gray cloud and then you look in the direction of the fire and it's a huge orange glow
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You see things blowing through the air. Of course, it's it's during a period when there's strong winds
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And that's that's why the house here on my street burned the fire line itself was a mile or two to the east
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But some embers blew up from from that they were raining down on the neighborhood and this house
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Still had an old wood shake roof on it so one of those embers hit it and caught it and so it burned and then the house next to it caught on fire and Shrubbery in the house next to it caught on fire.
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We had already evacuated so I didn't see it I only saw the aftermath when I returned but I guess it was was quite an event.
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My goodness. Yes Well, we were praying for you all at that time and certainly for the seminary as well because we knew it was very close there and goodness you go to Go to Southern, California You got riots and you got fires and you got earthquakes and then then then it rains and everything washes away
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And it's like wow. Hey, no wonder everybody moves there And then you go to McDonald's and everything is three dollars or 47 cents more than it is here in Phoenix So, you know,
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I I don't know what to say But I guess those hundred and twenty degree temperatures during the summer keep everybody from moving over here or something
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On my part, that's what would keep me Well, yeah, I gotta admit the that area is sort of nice as far as weather goes normally
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Well, let's see if we can't get both the dr. Anaheim and Eddie on here at the same time.
35:40
Let's talk with Eddie from Nylons. Hi Eddie. Hey Well next time you need some water
35:47
You can talk to me some below sea level That's right you are We've been as you know still dealing with all this
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Katrina stuff. So kind of ironic we ought to just switch places when that happens Well, it would be nice to have a pipeline that could go on over there.
36:02
We could use some of the water around here We've had a ten -year drought that's been going on around here but I remember very well going to Nylons and driving around Nylons with Eddie and I Don't know if I've ever publicly announced this
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Eddie, but you are a prophet I'm going to be able to demonstrate that you are a prophet because I remember very distinctly as we were driving around you said now you realize that Nylons is a is a big is a big bowl and Most of its below sea level he said and I said someday a category four or five hurricanes gonna nail this place and wipe half
36:38
Of it out and that was about what was that about? 2003 2004 somewhere around in there and a few years later.
36:45
Well, there you go So, I'm not sure why you're not on TBN making the big bucks We knew that we knew that situation for a while, let me let me let me ask the question
37:01
I Recently have grown very fond of church history where in the past I didn't care about it at all and I think a lot of people are in that boat and I as a reformed bohemian
37:16
I Particularly and Very cultural. I'm a musician.
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I love the arts. And so a lot of the emergent church, which has really become very big
37:28
Appeals to me just in the fact of it. It's uh, it's relevance in the sense of it's up -to -date
37:34
Of course, I know that theologically it's bankrupt as one person
37:40
I think Phil Johnson put it's um the wrong answers to perhaps good problems
37:45
Um, I think what I'm getting at is this and I'd like to just get your response to this
37:51
Dr. Renahan, is that it seems as though? Sometimes I think a little bit of responsibility falls on the part of those as the conservators of the ancient truth
38:03
That they haven't made them Not stuffy or let's put it this way
38:09
Sometimes old in people's minds is automatically stuffy and irrelevant and new is an abandonment of truth
38:16
You know, like if you go to a church, that's really solid in their doctrine or solid into Let's say loving the
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Puritans and loving church history. Um, they don't tend to have a PowerPoint presentation they don't tend to have new pews or chairs, uh, it tends to be an old stuffy place like it's a 16th century mausoleum and Although I know that may be a broad brush
38:40
I think that's part of what a lot of people respond to there's nothing there that church seems to have kept up with Being attractive
38:48
I like Alpha and Omega ministries except for the website, but we won't talk about that I know it's in the process of being done, but as we actually are speaking
38:59
But but in other words, it's okay to be up to date It's okay to have a church that looks like it was, you know
39:04
Remodeled recently and things like that. And I think the academic people tend to be Loving the old smelly places because that's where you find the best books and so I Know I don't want to be meandering a bit, but we know the truth doesn't change but certainly how we communicate it
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I think has to change or we lose generations of people and you know my interest came from Ministers and other people in the faith that would tell me you have to read this you have to read this
39:35
But yet I wasn't exactly excited about reading something that was written in Old English, for example Not because I'm not an academic.
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I was an honor graduate and all but I want to read something written today So I really appreciate the current reformed effort to bring those old truths
39:50
The old the old guard back to the front. Is any of this making any sense? I'm waiting for dr.
39:57
Renahan well I'm glad you used the word meandering Well, it's hard it's hard to phrase it to a question what
40:06
I what I'm saying is what the question would be this what what part Do you think conservatism?
40:12
Okay has played in in sort of an ironic position of Not not making the truth more accessible by keeping it in the old school.
40:22
Yeah. Well, I think that the the issue is contextualization Right. There you go. Yeah, and How do we contextualize?
40:31
truths and and you've hit on Attention that that's very real. It really needs to be wrestled with By all of us.
40:39
I think we've done more Thinking about it in terms of foreign missions then perhaps we have done in terms of the church in the
40:48
United States You know when we send people overseas, I think we have become sophisticated enough where we we
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Tell them that they can't import Western American Christianity into the the put the culture that they go to in fact, one of the things that troubles me the most when
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I Travel overseas and I have been to some countries I don't want to mention them right now but countries with foreign languages and things one of the things that's troubled me in some places is that the worship looked just like a
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Western American worship and it doesn't look like the culture of the country in which it's currently found and it ought to Right.
41:29
Okay, so I think I think We sometimes have thought well and deeply about how to contextualize on the mission field.
41:37
How do we do that in the United States? Well, I I do think that we we still have regional differences among us and our churches ought to reflect our regional differences
41:46
I would expect a church in New Orleans to look very different from a church in say Phoenix or Seattle or Chicago Right just because of the realities of those differences now some of the things that you mentioned, you know
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I mean, I'm sure that James doesn't want us to go down a list of all the things that you mentioned
42:05
But for example, you talked about a PowerPoint presentation. I don't know what you mean If you're talking about that in terms of preaching,
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I don't think it's a good idea I think there are theological reasons why a PowerPoint presentation probably isn't the best way to preach
42:19
It has to do with the dynamic of the preacher and the individual the need for eye contact the need for concentration you know,
42:28
I would not be in favor of PowerPoint in terms of Preaching for example, but on a principal basis not just on a tradition, you know tied to traditions kind of basis, right?
42:40
I was speaking specifically of bringing the great historical truths of the faith as you say contextually to the forefront instead of oh
42:48
That's old old news because most of the time I've ever been involved in hearing a lecture
42:54
It's usually some old guy who mumbles and he doesn't have anything. I mean the truth might be good
42:59
Didn't I lecture for you Eddie? Well, you're not And you don't mumble but And again,
43:07
I know I'm being very broad -brushed I just haven't I think it would be a good effort to see some of the younger folks that are excited about the history
43:14
Bring it forward. I try to do that in my church is to make it not so much make it interesting But do the best
43:19
I can to present it as you said in a modern context as opposed to something way back It's not reachable to the people.
43:26
Yeah, I and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I really do on that I think we need to find a way to communicate to get beyond Some of the language
43:33
I try to teach my students here in our preaching class I tell them to to get to know some of the great writers of the past But I said don't bring them into the pulpit with you.
43:44
Don't use their language Don't you know, you have to think in in The kind of communication that will make sense here in the 21st century
43:53
So yeah, maybe once was good to quote from Calvin or Owen or somebody and use their words, but don't become like them
44:00
Take him be a Translator in a sense for what they say and put it into an idiom that people today will understand
44:09
Excellent. Yeah 11 ministry. I'm Hebrews. Oh, yeah, you mean as far as bringing the the ancient faithful people to life in essence?
44:17
Yeah, exactly. All right Well, thank you, sir. Okay Yeah Yeah, you know
44:23
I've often said that I think it's a sin to to bore people when you teach them about Theology and I think it would be the same.
44:32
I was so so thankful that when I was in seminary I had a tremendous
44:38
Church history professor I think some paint sometimes people are just completely turned off to the subject
44:44
Because they have someone teaching who doesn't love the subject isn't passionate about the subject
44:49
Yeah, and hence they communicate their lack of passion to to their students. I mean, I don't know how you can avoid
44:56
That if you're not excited about you're not gonna make anybody else excited about it, but I Had a teacher who had gone over to Europe.
45:04
He had been these places he could describe them You could tell he loved what he was doing And so it but you know, you have to know your subject pretty well to be able to do that.
45:12
So your time Yeah, that's right. That's where the problem comes in is if you're just basically Preparing your materials and one hour before The lecture and your your cramming yourself to come up with it
45:25
You're not exactly gonna be overly passionate in what you're teaching, right? one of the things that I've been able to do is
45:31
I've been invited several times to go to churches and do sort of a church history weekend I have one coming up in two weeks in Texas and later in February I'll be going up to the northwest the
45:41
Seattle area to do one and and a lot of times the churches really enjoy those things Oh, yeah, in fact,
45:47
I've I've heard from folks who have attended some of those get -togethers, especially down in, Texas And they have found found that to be very very very useful.
45:57
So Speaking to an audience that is filled with primarily reformed folks who
46:05
Understand I mean they've I I know that you don't have time to doing this but right now for example
46:12
My Past couple days. I have been involved in a controversy with a couple of Roman Catholic apologists man by Steve Ray and Gary Machuda and the whole subject has been on the issue of the canon of Scripture and An assertion that was made
46:29
I played it on the program last time by mr Ray to a caller on Catholic answers live that Jerome was
46:36
Alone and unique in his not having the deuterocanonicals or the apocryphal works in his
46:43
Bible and that all the rest the early church had held to these books well, I Know that's not true.
46:49
But let's face it the vast majority of evangelicals wouldn't even be able to put Jerome in the right century
46:55
Let alone know. Well was Milito Sardis before him or after him? Cyril of Jerusalem Athanasius is 39th festal letter, etc, etc and then it's gone beyond that to going into the original wording of some of the
47:12
Of the materials for example, there's been a controversy over what exactly was Milito's canon
47:18
When he lists the book of wisdom is that is that the Greek Book of Wisdom?
47:24
or is that just another way of referring to Proverbs and Going into the Athanasius and I've been using the
47:29
TLG CD -ROM to provide the original language stuff unfortunately that kind of thing is
47:36
Really really rare. I mean, I can't hardly think of almost anybody else who's producing videos but the subject of Athanasius is canon in his 39th festal letter from 367.
47:50
I mean we are weird. Okay, let's just let's just let's just be Let's just acknowledge it what we do here is weird and Obviously when you're talking about church history and you're lecturing on these things
48:03
How do you communicate to your students? That what you're gonna be studying is going to be relevant when they're in the pulpit when they're in the ministry
48:14
I mean, I I know that as I have taught for Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary since 1995
48:21
Just as an example one year I was asked to teach Hebrew and Hebrew exegesis, and I don't consider myself a
48:28
Hebrew scholar But I had taken everything that I could in seminar on the subject and the whole reason I was asked was because they weren't getting
48:34
Any students through? The students were failing out with the other teacher who had a
48:39
PhD in Hebrew but he could not make the subject interesting and exciting to people and So I got everybody through and the reason
48:47
I get everybody through was I could make it relevant to the subject relevant to them and demonstrate, you know, this is why you should have an interest in these things and This is how it's relevant and I could tell them stories were in apologetics, especially
49:00
Knowledge of the original languages had been vital. How do you do that with 16th and 17th and 18th century?
49:08
Baptist history when you have People coming to your class and they're probably coming in with some presuppositions.
49:15
They may even be coming in with some biases And especially When I taught church history back in the early 90s at Grand Canyon a lot of students that would come in I could just tell they were taking this class.
49:27
Well because it happened to fit their schedule, you know That was all there was to it, right? How do you how do you as a professor?
49:33
How do you get past that? How do you? Inculcate a passion for the subject. Yeah. Well sometimes of course it depends on the gifts of the preacher
49:42
Let's acknowledge that that some some men are really smart, but they're not very good communicators
49:48
Yes, and that's the reality and that that could be the case with this fellow Who was teaching Hebrew is that he really knew his stuff, but he didn't know how to communicate it to others one of the things that I I try to teach my students to do is to expose themselves to the best preachers and Learn from them notice how how these men are able to communicate in in the first year
50:10
For example, they have a project that they have to do for one of my classes in which they have to Every week they have to read a sermon we have them.
50:18
I give them. Well, there are 12 Okay the first four have to be from the father's next four have to be from I'm sorry the first three from the father's then three from the medieval period then three from the
50:29
Reformation period and then three from the modern period they have to Take apart these sermons find the outline
50:37
I tell them to ask questions like how well does this preacher deal with the text of Scripture? Is he fanciful?
50:44
Does the text get properly exegeted and then how does the how does the preacher communicate to the people?
50:52
Does he use illustrations that make sense to them? Is he able to reach them and I want to get them thinking from the start of their training about how best?
51:01
to be able to communicate to people so that they can hear and understand and I think that one of the ways to do that Is to be exposed to the best of preaching
51:08
Throughout the centuries now, it's even better when you have the opportunity to see in here
51:14
But of course we're limited by What 50 years worth even at the outside of being able to hear people and sometimes what they see is not very good tell them don't go to the
51:27
TV preachers and you know use them those guys just because they're on TV That doesn't mean that they have any real gifts of communicating the gospel to people.
51:36
Really Wow You just you shot down so many of my heroes. I'm sorry But I Want them to to be exposed to an emulate the best because I think that in some ways
51:50
Preaching well, well, there must be a gift preaching is also a learned art Paul tells
51:56
Timothy to to make his progress or to progress so that everyone can see it And we we should never be satisfied with our abilities
52:04
We ought to always be pressing on how better can I reach these people? How can
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I communicate with them? How will they hear how can I make sure that with God's blessing?
52:14
They'll go home to the dinner table and they will be talking about this What illustrations can
52:20
I use? What means can I use because that's what they need to grow and and I as a preacher Whether I'm 50 years old or 30 years old
52:29
I need to be thinking in those terms and growing and increasing and working and honing and Just just doing everything that I can to improve
52:36
So I try to get my my students to do that and one way to do it is by by watching the best Reading the best.
52:42
How did he do this? How was he able to express these truths in such a way that they
52:49
Impacted me so powerfully as they did. It's interesting. I have an illustration that's
52:55
You can borrow it if you find it useful as well, but My fellow elder at Phoenix for in Baptist Church is is a far better preacher than than I will ever be
53:06
And he certainly knows how to craft a presentation to craft a sermon
53:12
And sometimes in very very difficult terrain. I mean he'll preach through Amos or Jose or have a cook and things like that and I noticed
53:24
About about four or five about four years ago or so That he had changed his preaching style some and so I made some inquiry and the reason was he had turned 60 and when he turned 60 he felt that he needed a new challenge in light of that landmark age and so he had always had a notebook with with just handwritten notes in it and He decided that he needed to stop using that hmm, and so he had to Memorize yeah all of his references all the all the cross references
54:02
He would be using so it made him study all the harder Well, and that's the exact opposite of what you would normally expect you normally expected if someone hadn't been doing that when they turn 60 ago
54:12
Yeah, I'm 60 now. I can I can go the other direction I can take it easy, but he chose to do just the opposite and make it actually much more difficult
54:22
Because notes are wonderful things Especially when you have as many cross references and things like that as he has so that's that's an example to me
54:30
And I know he had always been an example because when I first went to Phoenix reformed he was one of the only ministers that I knew of who 20 25 years out of Seminary knew
54:41
Greek and Hebrew better than when he had graduated That normally is one of the first casualties
54:46
Unfortunately Of a person is with all this the pressures and the stresses of hospital visits and everything else the servant preparation especially the original language exegesis goes by the wayside and and Maybe I'm again odd and strange but to me
55:04
It would seem that that would then likewise impact not only one's passion, but one's confidence in one's preaching and That when you when you know, you know, you may cover it up in your mind
55:17
But you know that your familiarity with the text is not nearly what it could have been had you spent more time on the text itself
55:24
I think that that's excellent. And and wow, what a wonderful illustration of exactly the point
55:30
I'm trying to make we should never rest content. No, no It doesn't just happen growth doesn't just come it comes intentionally
55:39
And out of something that is very unpopular in our society and hence has become very unpopular within the church and yet it's a very
55:46
Strongly referenced biblical New Testament term. It's called discipline not only within the within the family is that no longer much of an issue, but It is amazing to look at the family of terms that can be translated in the area of discipline self -control
56:05
Exercise so on and so forth that Repeatedly not just in the pastorals, but as a part of just regular
56:12
Christian life the necessity to be disciplined Yeah, and you know, it's a it's fascinating if you think about the fruit of the
56:18
Spirit nine things the last one The fruit of the Spirit is self -control Pretty amazing principle of sanctification there.
56:26
Think about it. The fruit of the Spirit is self -control who does it? Right. Well, it's the
56:31
Spirit who does it but I control myself It's not either or it's both and right and so while I want the
56:38
Spirit to bless my preaching It's important for me to be working hard on making myself
56:44
Better able to communicate with people as a preacher All right, and that's that's difficult to get people to recognize and unfortunately, let's us
56:54
Let's face it. The church is often not looking for the person who's seeking to do that in his life
56:59
They're looking for the person with a very different set of skills Because the church has the wrong idea of what the ministry of the
57:07
Word is supposed to be Well, we really thank Jim Renahan for being with us today The book is called true confessions
57:13
Baptist documents in the Reformed family available from Reformed Baptist Academic press
57:19
I highly recommend it to you Especially if you're gonna be doing any teaching in the area of church history
57:25
This would be a very very excellent resource for you, Jim Thank you very much for joining us today.
57:30
And if folks wanted to learn more about the Institute Reformed Baptist Studies How would they get to get in touch with you?
57:39
www .reformedbaptistinstitute .org www .reformedbaptistinstitute .org Do you really expect people to be able to spell all those names out of spaces between them?
57:50
www .reformedbaptistinstitute .org Is the number we thank you very much for joining us today
57:55
Jim. Thanks a lot. You're welcome. All right. God bless All right, and thanks for listening to the dividing line today.
58:01
We appreciate your participation And on Thursday, let me tell you folks. There have been a lot of commenters on YouTube, you know that are just so brave and nasty
58:12
Behind a keyboard but as normal I like to point out that these folks those folks on YouTube.
58:18
They won't call here We'll open up the phone lines on Thursday. You want to demonstrate that I'm all those things.
58:25
You've said that I am on On the YouTube comments. Well have the courage your convictions
58:31
Why don't you call up with your facts and let's see who's telling the truth We'll have more to say about that Thursday on the dividing line.
58:38
See you then. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries
59:35
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